@worf --"Don't fool yourself."Back atcha.
Commenter, examine thyself. "Sonograms, show babies fighting
back, and in pain."No, they don't. Movement is
not evidence of pain. You can get a withdrawal reflex (pinch a toe and the leg
contracts) from people who have completely severed spinal cords, even when they
can't feel anything at all. It's a spinal reflex, not pain."And they do have a beating heart."So do earthworms. So do
brain-dead patients in comas."It's taking away
life."So is stepping on a snail.Please, worf, be
serious. If the part of the brain that registers pain doesn't even exist,
then it's **impossible** for the fetus to feel pain. You might as well ask
a headless chicken if it feels pain -- they move too, you know. Google "The
Chicken Who Lived Without His Head for 18 Months".
@AuContrarius, Don't fool yourself.Sonograms, show
babies fighting back, and in pain. And they do have a beating heart.There is no excusing of this. It's taking away life.
@worf --"Death is very painful to the baby...."And yet again we see the Repubs' complete disconnect from reality, even
when facts are right in front of them.Yet again --1. A
fetus is not a baby.2. A fetus at 20-26 weeks doesn't have the
neural structures or connections that are necessary for the perception of pain.
It is physically impossible for that fetus to feel pain. Royal
College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists -- March 2010 -- "...pain from
physical trauma requires an intact pathway from the periphery, through the
spinal cord, into the thalamus and on to regions of the cerebral cortex
including the primary sensory cortex, the insular cortex and the anterior
cingulated cortex (which develops at 26 weeks). Fetal pain is not possible
before these necessary neural pathways and structures have developed."British Medical Journal April 2006 -- Can Fetuses Feel Pain? --
"...a mandate to provide pain relief before abortion is not supported by
what is known about the neurodevelopment of systems that support pain. Proposals
to...(administer fetal anesthesia), which increase risks to the women and costs
to the health provider, undermine the interests of the women and are unnecessary
Death is very painful to the baby.Why not have some compassion, and
give some relief?
Why do these men feel that they have so much right to make these decisions for
women! Please, if you say that they are worried about the unborn babies, I will
throw up! I think we should round up all these self righteous men and take a
good long look at their lives! Let us see how many of the starving and dying and
orphaned and sick children they have even lifted a pinky to help! Truth! They
barely even think of them! I am serious, do you think that people really care
about these fetuses? You know, I think that we each have a right to
privacy when it comes to these matters! I am so sick of self righteous Mormons
degrading my private life because I am gay! Of course, they first make it loud
and clear how sacred their sex lives are and so on! They have basic laws
governing abortion! Stay out of other people's lives and worry about
learning to treat people like you should! How many years of my life have I been
treated like nothing from there people! It isn't your life to decide!
@TJ --"According to our creators law, it is killing a
human."There is NO passage in the Bible that equates abortion
with murder. None.And, in fact, in Numbers 5:12-29, God instructs
Moses on how to teach priests to administer abortifacients to unfaithful
women.@jsf --"if a child is considered viable at 22
weeks, then why could some children not develop the ability to feel pain at an
earlier date?"The brain structures and connections necessary to
feel pain are simply not present at that age. That's a verifiable fact, and
politics won't change it. @Jimbo Low --"Any
doctor who says with certainty the fetus feels no pain at this stage is
delusional. "It isn't delusion -- it's medical
reality.This bill forces doctors to lie to pregnant women, and
forces additional medical risk on those women for no benefit.It
constantly amazes me that the party of supposed small government is so eager to
interfere with citizens' intimate private lives.
Uh? This legislation was proposed by an accountant? Maybe he should be licensed
so he can be the anesthesiologist since he appears his college degree gives him
the same knowledge as a doctor. But it's Utah and another attempt by the
legislature to regulate a woman's right to choose. Next they'll tell
you that a zygote reacts to a pin prick, obviously reacting to pain and hence
anesthesia needs to be applied after Day 1. I'm surprised the
legislature isn't demanding a woman go through a two week counseling
program before making a request, and then have them fill out about 15 forms and
appearing before an anti-abortion committee to receive approval. They can lay it
on thick and heavy with a big dose of religious judgmentalism.It's obvious that this is just a ruse to eliminate abortions without
doing anything to help these women before they get to this stage. And, of
course, once the baby is born, he/she is no longer a concern of the legislature.
So good-bye programs to get this baby on the right course for good health.
Another example of the religious right ignoring good science and data just so
they can impose their beliefs on the rest of us.I guess a smart
doctor will give a pregnant woman a sugar pill, tell her to wait for 30 min and
can now claim that is a safe and effective anesthetic for a fetus since they do
not feel pain.Problem solved!
I think jimbo must be right after all the doctors only have science on thier
side and Jimbo has his thoughts and beliefs on his side.
I get the point that most of the people who have commented here to this point
are virulently anti-abortion. So what are you doing to stop the need for
abortion - stop unwanted pregnancies? Stop the unwanted pregnancies from
starting? It's been clearly shown that unwanted pregnancies greatly
decrease when comprehensive sex education and no-cost contraception are readily
available. Prevent the conceptions and you will stop the abortions. res ipsa
You can tell Herbert is running for office again and against more conservative
people. He's afraid to veto anything controversial. This one I get that he
could get some major pushback, but he also signed two water funding bills that
many people would have supported. He appears rather gutless.
@TJ"Fetus = unborn baby = human life. Doesn't really matter what
you or I call it, it is still ending a human life. "And yet, Even the LDS Church allows for execeptions to prohibitions on abortion.
Fetus = unborn baby = human life. Doesn't really matter what you or I call
it, it is still ending a human life. According to our creators law, it is
killing a human. According to mans law, it is nothing more than removing a
tumor. I know who I am supporting on this. I will not be happy about what
happens to those who kill a healthy human before it gets a chance to take its
first breath when they appear before their maker. It will be horrible for them.
The Spotted Owl of the Pacific Northwest has more rights, protection and
proponents than UNBORN human beings. The absurdity of it all is
beyond words. Human genocide by the millions and backers are hailed as heroes.
It would seem that by requiring a woman to accept this anesthesia the governor
has made the state and all of us completely responsible for any unintended
issues that trace any negative impact back to this procedure. We may need to
set up a significant fund to be available to women that have problems. You see,
there is no such thing as anesthesia without risks.
So I guess it's OK to kill people who are under anesthesia, or the rare
person who lacks pain receptors, or someone in a coma.... Suppressing the pain
does nothing to reduce the barbarity of birth control abortions.
Thank you for a good bill and a signature into law. A step in the right
"One reason the JAMA review finds early pain perception unlikely is that the
connections between the thalamus, a sort of relay center in the brain, and the
cortex have not yet formed. This happens between 23 and 30 weeks gestational
age, and the authors argue these connections are a precursor for pain
perception. They also cite studies using electroencephalography that have shown
the capacity for functional pain in preterm newborns “probably does not
exist before 29 or 30 weeks.The American Congress of Obstetricians
and Gynecologists has agreed with RCOG’s (Royal Congress of Obstetricians
and Gynecologists)) and the JAMA study’s findings, writing in 2012 that
“[s]upporters of fetal pain legislation only present studies which support
the claim of fetal pain prior to the third trimester. When weighed together with
other available information, including the JAMA and RCOG studies,
supporters’ conclusion does not stand.”(Factcheck)
Any doctor who says with certainty the fetus feels no pain at this stage is
delusional. This is a good bill and brings to light the inhumane treatment of
Why are abortion supporters so inhuman, if a child is considered viable at 22
weeks, then why could some children not develop the ability to feel pain at an
earlier date? Could it be they are afraid of giving the child the image of
being human. Oh the fear! We have a section of our population that
worry about the pain a chicken feels, but then ignore and tell all that a child
can not feel pain. Just give it a thought of what it would be like
if these inhuman individuals are appointed to health panels under government
controlled health care. You really think they care about anyone's future
contributions to society. They will go to all extremes to make
sure their victims have no humanity attached to them, and then they have no
guilt to own. How many millions can they do, well in the US over 55 million
lives have been snuffed out. But what the heck, maybe we can start with the
other end of the life experience, or maybe just pick one group for genocide.
Let's see, "oh I'm pregnant and don't want the child,
I'll wait till 20+ weeks to have an abortion." Think you pregnant,
even remotely, go to a women health clinic and get the morning after pill,
Prior to enactment of this law, UT law required physicians to offer anesthesia
to women having abortions. Apparently the male-dominated UT legislature decided
women are incapable of making their own decisions. "...the idea
that 20-week-old fetuses can feel anything is disputed; a 2005 review of more
than 300 studies published in the Journal of the American Medical Association
concluded that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester
(28 weeks).Utah generally does not allow abortions after the point
of viability, around 22 to 24 weeks."(Washington Post)
"The new law by Sen. Curt Bramble, R-Provo, targets a small subset of women
who have elective abortions beginning at 20 weeks. State law normally allows
abortions until viability, which is at about 22 weeks. Bramble initially sought
to ban abortions after 20 weeks entirely, but he changed course after the
Legislature's attorneys warned him that any such measure would likely be
unconstitutional.Dr. Sean Esplin of Intermountain Healthcare in Utah
said anesthesia or an analgesic would need to go through the woman in order to
reach the fetus. Doctors could give a woman general anesthesia, which would make
her unconscious and likely require a breathing tube, or a heavy dose of
narcotics."(US News and World Report)
I find it interesting that fetuses that must be aborted for the life or health
of the mother don't have the same potential to feel pain at 20 weeks that
fetuses aborted by choice feel. There are two potential explanations
for this: 1) fetuses that must be aborted for the life of the mother know this
and shut down their own pain systems in response to a "legitimate"
abortion; or, 2) this is complete ridiculousness and just another effort to
create difficulties for women who make a choice some people don't like. My guess is #2.
Once again politicians (and others) think they know more about medicine then
Doctors and Scientists.Nothing new here, just the same old blather.
@tj and 1978 Except for the fact that the fetus (the actual medical term)
is incapable of feeling pain as that part of the brain does not exisist at this
stage, it makes perfect sense to unnecessarily place the mother's health at
Increased health risk? Seems like it is a pretty serious health risk for a
living, unborn baby also. If this makes a few women who are considering an
abortion think about why the anesthetic is needed, and even one life is saved
because a pregnant woman decides not to end her childs life, it is a good bill.
"Many doctors in Utah and across the country are concerned that the
requirement could increase the health risks to women"Really?
The next time one of those doctors (who are concerned about this) need an
operation don't give them any anesthetic just let them bit down on a
bullet. After all we wouldn't want to increase their health risk.