@New to Utah --"The gunman was obviously a wacko."Every gunman in every mass shooting is a wacko in one way or other.That does not excuse people who encourage and incite such shootings by
spreading hateful rhetoric.
The gunman was obviously a wacko. This individual does not represent anyone or
anything but himself. I disagree with the tone,logic and arguments of the author
of this article.Stop painting law abiding,liberty loving Christians with the
same brush as this loony man. People can oppose abortion and planned parenthood
and be great law abiding citizens.We should be able to have reasonable and
dynamic discussions about abortions and planned parenthood.
@PLM --"Abortion is the taking of life, more than just babies
were killed in Colorado that day."And yet again we see a DN
poster trying to blame the victims.Yet again -- in the context of
this attack, the morality or immorality of abortion **is irrelevant**. It has no
place in this discussion at all. The only reason for anyone to declare their
opposition to abortion in this context is to attempt to diminish the victims --
essentially saying "ohhhh, they were only abortion supporters, so they
don't count as much as "normal" people."Stop trying
to blame the victims. This is a country of laws, not a country of terrorists and
vigilantes.Since 1977, there have been eight murders, 17 attempted
murders, 42 bombings, 186 arsons and thousands of other incidents, including
vandalism, against PP clinics across the country.Multiple Planned
Parenthood clinics in New Hampshire, Southern California and Washington have
been targeted by vandals and arsonists since the wave of anti-abortion protests
began this summer.PP clinics constantly field death threats against
them, and are faced with constant peaceful and not-so-peaceful protests outside
their facilities.Stop blaming the victims. Your comments encourage
and excuse these heinous attacks.
My sincere condolences to the police officer who lost his life in this incident.
Abortion is the taking of life, more than just babies were killed in Colorado
that day. Our nation's laws disregarding the rights of pre-born humans
sicken me but evil does not justify evil acts. Killing babies is immoral, people
who support these heinous acts need to stop hiding behind this inexcusable law
based on lies and selfishness. Look up the back story of Roe v Wade if you
don't believe this is so.
@Uteofferouus --"Suggesting that I am blaming victims is what is
out of context."On the contrary. Declaring that abortion is
immoral in the midst of a discussion about a deadly attack at an abortion clinic
**is** blaming the victim -- excusing the actions of the attacker."I am in no way condoning the violence of the deranged individual who shot
up the PP clinic."Of course you are. You are explaining why you
think such an attack would be justified. That is obvious to most of us.
@3grandslams: "The barbarism of both this gunman and the abortion to profit
of baby parts is sickening."@Uteofferouus: "I am defending
the innocent victims of abortion."These are variations of the
widely criticized 2001 essay from Ward Churchill framing the 9/11 terrorism as a
case of chickens-coming-home-to-roost -- an unavoidable consequence of what
Churchill characterized as unlawful US foreign policy. Like
Churchill, these comments do not condone the terrorism, but do express
common-cause with the presumed opinions of the shooter. This is unusual. For
example, I cannot recall any politician or pundit saying about the recent Paris
terrorism: "yes, what they did was terrible, but I can understand why they
did it."Perhaps it is a sign Americans are ready for a more
nuanced understanding of terrorism, in a way we were not when Churchill wrote
his essay. Understanding the motivations behind terrorism may lead to more
effective strategies to prevent it. A simpler explanation is that
folks who oppose abortion may simply want an exemption for the anti-abortion
movement from America's blanket condemnation of all terrorism and the
political causes that engage in it.
Extremists of any sort are a concern and a danger. We don't need them.
Period. What he did was a cruel and domestic terrorist act regardless of his
beliefs or reasons why. We have to get to some place of sanity in our nation
where we don't go around shooting everyone we don't agree with.
@Contrarius:Sorry you missed the whole point of my reply. We can
agree that "this is a country of laws, not a country of terrorists and
vigilantes", but it is perfectly logical and appropriate to point out that
just because something is legal does not confer beneficence onto it. Suggesting that I am blaming victims is what is out of context. If anything, I
am defending the innocent victims of abortion. I am in no way condoning the
violence of the deranged individual who shot up the PP clinic. I advocate that
we use discussion, persuasion, and moral debate to combat the abuse of the
practice of abortion, but never violence.
Like the symbiotic relationship between Sinn Fein and the Irish Republican Army,
the American anti-abortion movement relies on both political and militant arms
to achieve its goals, enabled by civilians and politicians who agree with the
objectives more than they disagree with the tactics.To avoid
culpability, the policy arm of the anti-abortion movement and its enablers must
feign surprise and concern every time individuals engage in clinic violence that
is as predictable as it is fully consistent with the political aims of the
movement.The anti-Planned Parenthood hyperbole preceding the
Colorado Springs shootings followed the same template as the inflammatory
rhetoric that preceded the assassination of George Tiller. In
fairness, politicians and civilian leaders of the movement can truthfully state
that they did not order or organize the violence in both cases. Less
convincing are claims that these are random acts of deranged madmen. The same
template is repeatedly used because it works: at least one person will mistake
hyperbole for literal truth and engage in what he perceives to be justifiable
violence.The template is so recognizable that Planned Parenthood
prepared in advance a successful defense of its facility against the inevitable
@Uteofferouus --"Abortion may be legal, but that doesn't
make it right!"In the context of the PP murders, whether or not
abortion is "right" is irrelevant.I may believe that war is
wrong -- but that would not justify me going in and shooting up a recruiting
station.I may believe that strip mining is wrong -- but that would
not justify me going in and killing coal-company executives.Stop
trying to blame the victims. This is a country of laws, not a country of
terrorists and vigilantes.
@Contrarius:Abortion may be legal, but that doesn't make it
right! A lot of people live under the illusion that if something is legal that
said status makes it good and worthy of emulation. Hardly.In some
states prostitution is legal does that make it a good thing? Consumption of
alcohol and tobacco products are perfectly legal, does that confer up them a
worthy status too?No, legalized status does not confer goodness or
societal benefit upon many choices and actions we participate in, including
so-called "same-sex marriage"
JSB so, even though abortion is legal, because you consider it immoral that
means what this man did (assuming he did do it because he's anti-abortion)
If BO or Hillary called for the creation of a national database for all pro-life
supporters would there be an outrage from the GOP presidential candidates?
As usual, the same people who argue about "all Muslims" when talking
about terrorism are quick to differentiate between this crackpot and the rest of
Christianity in order not to be associated with him and will argue that what he
believes isn't real Christianity. The reality is that unless you're
willing to accept that Islamist beliefs do not correspond with those of the tens
of thousands of Muslims they have killed or with the billions of other Muslims
here on planet Earth, you don't get to distinguish between the Christianity
of this murderer and your own.
The barbarism of both this gunman and the abortion to profit of baby parts is
sickening. I can accept neither. I should be noted that PP is
screaming the gunman was anti-abortion. It should be noted so was the officer
who lost his life trying to rescue PP.
UtahBlueDevil makes an incredibly important point regarding extremism. Extremism
is found in politics and religions most prominently but also in individual
causes possibly not tied to religion or politics per se. Regardless, I find
extremism as the single biggest threat now and likely into our future. Extremism
is found on the left and the right. For example, extremely liberal environmental
extremism can be just as dangerous as extremely conservative anti-abortion
extremism. One can hold strongly to a belief without being willing to harm,
denegrate, discriminate and even kill others for that belief. Extremism is best
defeated within the very movement the extremist purportes to defend. And each of
us have an obligation to defeat extremism within our own group. I appreciate
some of the comments in this article in which very strong anti-abortionists
condemn this man's actions.
America is like a small town overrun with juveniles that like to start fires.
The adults can't agree to regulate the sale of matches and gasoline, since
fire helped mankind during our caveman era, and fire is considered sacred.There's a massive array of problems where setting a fire is viewed
as a good and worthy action or reaction, an exercise in freedom. Sometimes the
situation is absurd.When somebody suggests buying matches and
gasoline should be regulated, others shout the Sherrif is trying to throw
everyone in jail, and somebody starts selling flame throwers.
This guy is probably mentally ill. There are some here who want to pin this on a
particular religious or political ideology.Newsflash--There are wing
nuts on both the Left and the Right, atheists and people of religion.
@JSB --"Just because abortion is legal does not make it right or
moral. We are in a sorry state if our criteria for right and wrong is legal or
illegal."I never said it did. But this is a country
of laws, not anarchy or vigilantism. We don't go around shooting people who
are engaged in legal activities, even if we disagree with what they're
doing. That's the mindset of the terrorist and the vigilante.
I'm not sure why we are discussing "abortion."The issue
is terroristic acts, where zealots kill innocents. If we're
going to imply that abortion can even remotely justify terrorists, then we have
to also allow that rock music justified the Paris terrorists. We are
either a nation of laws or we're something else... And I can't imagine
any other system that I'd prefer.
Many commenters assume facts not in evidence. This is an aberrant individual,
not a political bellwether.
@ ContrariusJust because abortion is legal does not make it right or
moral. We are in a sorry state if our criteria for right and wrong is legal or
@1aggie --"This sad tragedy reminds me of what Jim David
Adkisson did in TN in 2008"I was living in Knoxville at the time
of that shooting, and I lived less than a mile from that church. If I had been
attending any church during that period, I would have been going to that one. I
did attend the memorial service there.Adkisson specifically said
that he hated "liberals, Democrats, blacks, and gays" -- and that's
why he chose to shoot up the UU church. It was especially filled with children
at the time, since they were putting on a children's musical
performance.Everybody, please, PLEASE read those news stories I
cited in my previous post.
This sad tragedy reminds me of what Jim David Adkisson did in TN in 2008:"A man accused of fatally shooting two adults and wounding seven
others at a Knoxville church told police the church's liberal teachings
prompted him to attack, according to court papers.Jim Adkisson said
liberals should be killed because they're ruining the nation, according to
an affidavit.Jim David Adkisson told investigators all liberals
should be killed and admitted he shot people Sunday morning at Tennessee Valley
Unitarian Universalist Church, according to a search warrant affidavit obtained
by CNN affiliate WBIR."(CNN)
@Hugh G. Hater --"Where is the evidence this man killed in the
name of christianity?"There is very little evidence (released to
the public) yet of anything. He did, however, have a cross prominently displayed
on the outer wall of his cabin in NC, which gives one a suspicion."Abortion is the "extremism" that kills the most innocent."Abortion is legal. Gunning down people for engaging in legal activities
Blue DevilYou have made several assumptions as the basis for your
comment. No details about the motives or mental state of the shooter have been
released. Was he shouting God is Great as he fired? Being psychotic is not
religion based and being from an implied Christian background, however distant,
does not make one a Christian.
@UtahBlueDevil --"This man was from my current state, a
Christian, and was as every bit dangerous as a Muslim extremist."As you're already aware, but others may not be --"Right-Wing Extremists More Dangerous Than Islamic Terrorists In U.S."
-- NPR 6/24/15"The Growing Right-Wing Terror Threat" -- NYT
6/16/15"Homegrown Extremists Tied to Deadlier Toll Than
Jihadists in U.S. Since 9/11" -- NYT 6/24/15And let us not
forget Cliven Bundy, beloved of the Tea Party, he who has declared that he
doesn't even recognize the existence of the federal government, and whose
associates murdered two cops just a few weeks after the standoff at Bundy's
UtahBlueDevil-Where is the evidence this man killed in the name of
christianity?Does the bible teach murder?The irony in this
story would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic: An abortionist (see
Obama's record) telling people that guns must be banned in order to have a
"clean conscience". Abortion is the "extremism" that kills the
When will people stop trying to over simplify the risk and brand entire groups
of people as being a risk. This man was from my current state, a Christian, and
was as every bit dangerous as a Muslim extremist. Extremism no matter the
source, color, faith or cause is dangerous. Just as all lives matter - all
extremism is dangerous.I feel for those that senselessly lost loved
ones at this time of year because of the mental ravings of a mad man who sought
to use violence to save others. What a waste. We see this over and over again
- in Oklahoma City, at the Atlanta Winter Games, in Charleston earlier this
year, and here again. Sometimes the terrorist looks a lot like us and worships
at the same place we do.