Official says gunman made 'no more baby parts' comment (+video)

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  • Contrariuses mid-state, TN
    Nov. 30, 2015 11:19 a.m.

    @New to Utah --

    "The gunman was obviously a wacko."

    Every gunman in every mass shooting is a wacko in one way or other.

    That does not excuse people who encourage and incite such shootings by spreading hateful rhetoric.

  • New to Utah PAYSON, UT
    Nov. 30, 2015 10:40 a.m.

    The gunman was obviously a wacko. This individual does not represent anyone or anything but himself. I disagree with the tone,logic and arguments of the author of this article.Stop painting law abiding,liberty loving Christians with the same brush as this loony man. People can oppose abortion and planned parenthood and be great law abiding citizens.We should be able to have reasonable and dynamic discussions about abortions and planned parenthood.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Nov. 30, 2015 9:28 a.m.

    @PLM --

    "Abortion is the taking of life, more than just babies were killed in Colorado that day."

    And yet again we see a DN poster trying to blame the victims.

    Yet again -- in the context of this attack, the morality or immorality of abortion **is irrelevant**. It has no place in this discussion at all. The only reason for anyone to declare their opposition to abortion in this context is to attempt to diminish the victims -- essentially saying "ohhhh, they were only abortion supporters, so they don't count as much as "normal" people."

    Stop trying to blame the victims. This is a country of laws, not a country of terrorists and vigilantes.

    Since 1977, there have been eight murders, 17 attempted murders, 42 bombings, 186 arsons and thousands of other incidents, including vandalism, against PP clinics across the country.

    Multiple Planned Parenthood clinics in New Hampshire, Southern California and Washington have been targeted by vandals and arsonists since the wave of anti-abortion protests began this summer.

    PP clinics constantly field death threats against them, and are faced with constant peaceful and not-so-peaceful protests outside their facilities.

    Stop blaming the victims. Your comments encourage and excuse these heinous attacks.

  • PLM Kaysville, UT
    Nov. 30, 2015 8:11 a.m.

    My sincere condolences to the police officer who lost his life in this incident. Abortion is the taking of life, more than just babies were killed in Colorado that day. Our nation's laws disregarding the rights of pre-born humans sicken me but evil does not justify evil acts. Killing babies is immoral, people who support these heinous acts need to stop hiding behind this inexcusable law based on lies and selfishness. Look up the back story of Roe v Wade if you don't believe this is so.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Nov. 30, 2015 7:19 a.m.

    @Uteofferouus --

    "Suggesting that I am blaming victims is what is out of context."

    On the contrary. Declaring that abortion is immoral in the midst of a discussion about a deadly attack at an abortion clinic **is** blaming the victim -- excusing the actions of the attacker.

    "I am in no way condoning the violence of the deranged individual who shot up the PP clinic."

    Of course you are. You are explaining why you think such an attack would be justified. That is obvious to most of us.

  • Daedalus, Stephen ARVADA, CO
    Nov. 29, 2015 10:21 p.m.

    @3grandslams: "The barbarism of both this gunman and the abortion to profit of baby parts is sickening."

    @Uteofferouus: "I am defending the innocent victims of abortion."

    These are variations of the widely criticized 2001 essay from Ward Churchill framing the 9/11 terrorism as a case of chickens-coming-home-to-roost -- an unavoidable consequence of what Churchill characterized as unlawful US foreign policy.

    Like Churchill, these comments do not condone the terrorism, but do express common-cause with the presumed opinions of the shooter. This is unusual. For example, I cannot recall any politician or pundit saying about the recent Paris terrorism: "yes, what they did was terrible, but I can understand why they did it."

    Perhaps it is a sign Americans are ready for a more nuanced understanding of terrorism, in a way we were not when Churchill wrote his essay. Understanding the motivations behind terrorism may lead to more effective strategies to prevent it.

    A simpler explanation is that folks who oppose abortion may simply want an exemption for the anti-abortion movement from America's blanket condemnation of all terrorism and the political causes that engage in it.

  • Fullypresent Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2015 9:16 p.m.

    Extremists of any sort are a concern and a danger. We don't need them. Period. What he did was a cruel and domestic terrorist act regardless of his beliefs or reasons why. We have to get to some place of sanity in our nation where we don't go around shooting everyone we don't agree with.

  • Uteofferouus Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2015 5:10 p.m.

    @Contrarius:

    Sorry you missed the whole point of my reply. We can agree that "this is a country of laws, not a country of terrorists and vigilantes", but it is perfectly logical and appropriate to point out that just because something is legal does not confer beneficence onto it.

    Suggesting that I am blaming victims is what is out of context. If anything, I am defending the innocent victims of abortion. I am in no way condoning the violence of the deranged individual who shot up the PP clinic. I advocate that we use discussion, persuasion, and moral debate to combat the abuse of the practice of abortion, but never violence.

  • Daedalus, Stephen ARVADA, CO
    Nov. 29, 2015 4:45 p.m.

    Like the symbiotic relationship between Sinn Fein and the Irish Republican Army, the American anti-abortion movement relies on both political and militant arms to achieve its goals, enabled by civilians and politicians who agree with the objectives more than they disagree with the tactics.

    To avoid culpability, the policy arm of the anti-abortion movement and its enablers must feign surprise and concern every time individuals engage in clinic violence that is as predictable as it is fully consistent with the political aims of the movement.

    The anti-Planned Parenthood hyperbole preceding the Colorado Springs shootings followed the same template as the inflammatory rhetoric that preceded the assassination of George Tiller.

    In fairness, politicians and civilian leaders of the movement can truthfully state that they did not order or organize the violence in both cases.

    Less convincing are claims that these are random acts of deranged madmen. The same template is repeatedly used because it works: at least one person will mistake hyperbole for literal truth and engage in what he perceives to be justifiable violence.

    The template is so recognizable that Planned Parenthood prepared in advance a successful defense of its facility against the inevitable violence.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Nov. 29, 2015 2:20 p.m.

    @Uteofferouus --

    "Abortion may be legal, but that doesn't make it right!"

    In the context of the PP murders, whether or not abortion is "right" is irrelevant.

    I may believe that war is wrong -- but that would not justify me going in and shooting up a recruiting station.

    I may believe that strip mining is wrong -- but that would not justify me going in and killing coal-company executives.

    Stop trying to blame the victims. This is a country of laws, not a country of terrorists and vigilantes.

  • Uteofferouus Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2015 12:43 p.m.

    @Contrarius:

    Abortion may be legal, but that doesn't make it right! A lot of people live under the illusion that if something is legal that said status makes it good and worthy of emulation. Hardly.

    In some states prostitution is legal does that make it a good thing? Consumption of alcohol and tobacco products are perfectly legal, does that confer up them a worthy status too?

    No, legalized status does not confer goodness or societal benefit upon many choices and actions we participate in, including so-called "same-sex marriage"

  • dmcvey Los Angeles, CA
    Nov. 29, 2015 11:07 a.m.

    JSB so, even though abortion is legal, because you consider it immoral that means what this man did (assuming he did do it because he's anti-abortion) is justified?

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Nov. 29, 2015 10:10 a.m.

    If BO or Hillary called for the creation of a national database for all pro-life supporters would there be an outrage from the GOP presidential candidates?

  • Eliyahu Pleasant Grove, UT
    Nov. 29, 2015 9:54 a.m.

    As usual, the same people who argue about "all Muslims" when talking about terrorism are quick to differentiate between this crackpot and the rest of Christianity in order not to be associated with him and will argue that what he believes isn't real Christianity. The reality is that unless you're willing to accept that Islamist beliefs do not correspond with those of the tens of thousands of Muslims they have killed or with the billions of other Muslims here on planet Earth, you don't get to distinguish between the Christianity of this murderer and your own.

  • 3grandslams Iowa City, IA
    Nov. 29, 2015 9:21 a.m.

    The barbarism of both this gunman and the abortion to profit of baby parts is sickening. I can accept neither.

    I should be noted that PP is screaming the gunman was anti-abortion. It should be noted so was the officer who lost his life trying to rescue PP.

  • One of Vai's Cousins DC, Washington
    Nov. 29, 2015 1:12 a.m.

    UtahBlueDevil makes an incredibly important point regarding extremism. Extremism is found in politics and religions most prominently but also in individual causes possibly not tied to religion or politics per se. Regardless, I find extremism as the single biggest threat now and likely into our future. Extremism is found on the left and the right. For example, extremely liberal environmental extremism can be just as dangerous as extremely conservative anti-abortion extremism. One can hold strongly to a belief without being willing to harm, denegrate, discriminate and even kill others for that belief. Extremism is best defeated within the very movement the extremist purportes to defend. And each of us have an obligation to defeat extremism within our own group. I appreciate some of the comments in this article in which very strong anti-abortionists condemn this man's actions.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 28, 2015 9:56 p.m.

    America is like a small town overrun with juveniles that like to start fires. The adults can't agree to regulate the sale of matches and gasoline, since fire helped mankind during our caveman era, and fire is considered sacred.

    There's a massive array of problems where setting a fire is viewed as a good and worthy action or reaction, an exercise in freedom. Sometimes the situation is absurd.

    When somebody suggests buying matches and gasoline should be regulated, others shout the Sherrif is trying to throw everyone in jail, and somebody starts selling flame throwers.

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Nov. 28, 2015 9:43 p.m.

    This guy is probably mentally ill. There are some here who want to pin this on a particular religious or political ideology.

    Newsflash--There are wing nuts on both the Left and the Right, atheists and people of religion.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 28, 2015 8:02 p.m.

    @JSB --

    "Just because abortion is legal does not make it right or moral. We are in a sorry state if our criteria for right and wrong is legal or illegal."

    I never said it did.

    But this is a country of laws, not anarchy or vigilantism. We don't go around shooting people who are engaged in legal activities, even if we disagree with what they're doing. That's the mindset of the terrorist and the vigilante.

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    Nov. 28, 2015 7:36 p.m.

    I'm not sure why we are discussing "abortion."

    The issue is terroristic acts, where zealots kill innocents.

    If we're going to imply that abortion can even remotely justify terrorists, then we have to also allow that rock music justified the Paris terrorists.

    We are either a nation of laws or we're something else... And I can't imagine any other system that I'd prefer.

  • casual observer Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2015 7:11 p.m.

    Many commenters assume facts not in evidence. This is an aberrant individual, not a political bellwether.

  • JSB Sugar City, ID
    Nov. 28, 2015 6:36 p.m.

    @ Contrarius

    Just because abortion is legal does not make it right or moral. We are in a sorry state if our criteria for right and wrong is legal or illegal.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 28, 2015 4:05 p.m.

    @1aggie --

    "This sad tragedy reminds me of what Jim David Adkisson did in TN in 2008"

    I was living in Knoxville at the time of that shooting, and I lived less than a mile from that church. If I had been attending any church during that period, I would have been going to that one. I did attend the memorial service there.

    Adkisson specifically said that he hated "liberals, Democrats, blacks, and gays" -- and that's why he chose to shoot up the UU church. It was especially filled with children at the time, since they were putting on a children's musical performance.

    Everybody, please, PLEASE read those news stories I cited in my previous post.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Nov. 28, 2015 2:54 p.m.

    This sad tragedy reminds me of what Jim David Adkisson did in TN in 2008:

    "A man accused of fatally shooting two adults and wounding seven others at a Knoxville church told police the church's liberal teachings prompted him to attack, according to court papers.
    Jim Adkisson said liberals should be killed because they're ruining the nation, according to an affidavit.

    Jim David Adkisson told investigators all liberals should be killed and admitted he shot people Sunday morning at Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, according to a search warrant affidavit obtained by CNN affiliate WBIR."
    (CNN)

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 28, 2015 1:51 p.m.

    @Hugh G. Hater --

    "Where is the evidence this man killed in the name of christianity?"

    There is very little evidence (released to the public) yet of anything. He did, however, have a cross prominently displayed on the outer wall of his cabin in NC, which gives one a suspicion.

    "Abortion is the "extremism" that kills the most innocent."

    Abortion is legal. Gunning down people for engaging in legal activities is not.

  • Hemlock Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2015 11:41 a.m.

    Blue Devil

    You have made several assumptions as the basis for your comment. No details about the motives or mental state of the shooter have been released. Was he shouting God is Great as he fired? Being psychotic is not religion based and being from an implied Christian background, however distant, does not make one a Christian.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Nov. 28, 2015 11:12 a.m.

    @UtahBlueDevil --

    "This man was from my current state, a Christian, and was as every bit dangerous as a Muslim extremist."

    As you're already aware, but others may not be --

    "Right-Wing Extremists More Dangerous Than Islamic Terrorists In U.S." -- NPR 6/24/15

    "The Growing Right-Wing Terror Threat" -- NYT 6/16/15

    "Homegrown Extremists Tied to Deadlier Toll Than Jihadists in U.S. Since 9/11" -- NYT 6/24/15

    And let us not forget Cliven Bundy, beloved of the Tea Party, he who has declared that he doesn't even recognize the existence of the federal government, and whose associates murdered two cops just a few weeks after the standoff at Bundy's ranch.

  • Hugh G. Hater Swat Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2015 10:57 a.m.

    UtahBlueDevil-

    Where is the evidence this man killed in the name of christianity?
    Does the bible teach murder?

    The irony in this story would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic: An abortionist (see Obama's record) telling people that guns must be banned in order to have a "clean conscience". Abortion is the "extremism" that kills the most innocent.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 28, 2015 9:06 a.m.

    When will people stop trying to over simplify the risk and brand entire groups of people as being a risk. This man was from my current state, a Christian, and was as every bit dangerous as a Muslim extremist. Extremism no matter the source, color, faith or cause is dangerous. Just as all lives matter - all extremism is dangerous.

    I feel for those that senselessly lost loved ones at this time of year because of the mental ravings of a mad man who sought to use violence to save others. What a waste. We see this over and over again - in Oklahoma City, at the Atlanta Winter Games, in Charleston earlier this year, and here again. Sometimes the terrorist looks a lot like us and worships at the same place we do.