Pope: Catholics don't have to breed 'like rabbits'

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  • FanOfTheSith Vernal, UT
    Jan. 23, 2015 9:28 a.m.

    "Catholics don't have to breed "like rabbits" and should instead practice "responsible parenting."

    Sounds funny but I would look at that as good old common sense advice.....LOL! Kudos to him for saying that.

  • SlickMick Ashburn, VA
    Jan. 23, 2015 8:59 a.m.

    Baccus0902. I find it rather disingenuous to try to argue the merits of socialism and communism using LDS scriptures when Mormon leaders have made it quite clear that such systems that promote government control over personal free will are against God. Perhaps you might read ET Benson's excellent 1969 book "An Enemy Hath Done This" to get a better feel for the Mormon position on communism. I see a used copy on Amazon for 19.99. Another good one of Richard Vetterli's "The Constitution By A Thread".

  • Wacoan Waco, TX
    Jan. 23, 2015 8:36 a.m.

    @ Tyler D,
    Yes, the Pope's statement contained irony and your quip was both funny and contained elements of truth but wouldn't the irony be as great coming from the heads of government of the Western European secular states that we both admire?

    My problem with the Pope's statement is his notion of what constitutes imposition.

    "African bishops...have long complained about how progressive, Western ideas about birth control...are increasingly being imposed on the developing world...as a condition for development aid."

    The governments are not required to take the aid but are the programs described the best method to put autocratic, elitist states on the road to democratic capitalism?

    Democratic, capitalist states have a demographic crisis of their own. Birthrates are dangerously low and might threaten the ability of these countries to grow economically and maintain the cultural identity that promotes government that in turn promotes freedom.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 22, 2015 3:34 p.m.

    To "Baccus0902" then tell us where pure socialism has been tried and has worked.

    You claim it is a good system, yet I have yet to see anywhere in history where it has actually worked.

    If you go with any biblical or BoM examples, I will tell you right now that those are not examples of socialism because it was not government mandated or controlled and was a voluntary sharing of goods.

    What about the statement by the First Presidency, do you also disagree with that? It was a signed letter by them stating that Communism and other similar isms are of the Devil. Are you saying that you only agree with what the Prophet says as long as it corresponds to your political views?

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    Jan. 22, 2015 2:58 p.m.

    RedSHirt,
    I am fully aware of the "past" stand of the LDS Church on Communism and the United Order. I just happen to disagree with those personal opinions of some leaders.

    But this exchange is not to convince you of anything. This is just an opportunity to get to know other current of opinions.

    However, I would like to insist that the Scriptures; the Bible, The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Convenants make a strong pro-socialist argument.

    When you judge Socialism for the failures of the USSR, China or North Korea it is like judging Christianity solely on the basis of the Holy Inquisition and the Crusades.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 22, 2015 12:31 p.m.

    To "Baccus0902" socialism is not an unselfish system. It is a selfish system. The difference is that you reduce the need for money, but you now have immense power being wielded by a few individuals.

    Yes, look at what has happened with Free schools. Our Elementary and High Schools are being turned into indoctrination centers (something we were warned about in the 1970's).

    Social Security is bankrupt and is spending more than it brings in.

    Medicare/Medicaid have also failed.

    Since when were thought crimes a good thing to have?

    You do realize that anti-discrimination laws are nothing more than legalized slavery. Since when is slavery good?

    If you are an active LDS member, you would know that multiple Prophets have declared that the United Order is NOT like communism. You would know that Communism is one of Satan's tools for destroying the soul of men. Just look at the 1942 First Presidency letter that declared Communism to be of the Devil, or read President Benson's talks where he discusses it, or many other prophets that have also stated the same thing.

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    Jan. 22, 2015 10:49 a.m.

    RedShirt:
    Of course, this subject is way bigger than what we can cover in this very limited forum. However, what you mention as Socialism's maladies can be seen throughout the history of the world with all political systems.

    Capitalism appeals to the selfishness of individuals. Socialism appeals to the goodness of individuals.

    You bring up horrible situations of gone wong social and politicial experiments.

    Socialism is a process that needs to occur gradually by developing a social/community consciosness among the meber of society. Socialism cannot be imposed by force. A socialist conciosness is taking place in the U.S. and in the world, some examples of that evolution are:
    - work week of 40 hours maximum
    - Free/Compulsory Public School
    - Social Security
    - Medicare and Medicaid
    - Anti-Hate Laws
    - Anti Discrimination Laws

    If you a an LDS you will see that the United Order was a "Communist" precept. Very much like the primitive Church in Act 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 22, 2015 9:13 a.m.

    To "atl134" communism is just a more controlling version of socialism. They both effectively do the same thing. They are both collectivist philosophies that have lead to the destruction of many lives.

    Tell us, what do you think the difference is between Socialism and Communism is?

  • Red Corvette St. George, UT
    Jan. 21, 2015 9:06 p.m.

    I find this whole tempest in a teapot hilarious, given the fact that Utah has the highest birth rate in the nation.

  • SlickMick Ashburn, VA
    Jan. 21, 2015 3:22 p.m.

    To Laura Bilington and all the others who have no clue about non-artificial ways to prevent pregnancy. People mean different things by rhythm method, but the bottom line is yes, you can be very effective in avoiding pregnancy while still enjoying all the marriage relations you and the spouse desire. Not foolproof but neither are other methods. So maybe you go from one kid every 14-18 months to one every 2-3 yrs or more. You know, the goal is not to not have kids, but rather to space them out a little more. It's just a shame people use their ignorance to belittle another religion.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2015 2:05 p.m.

    " Cuba, North Korea, or China"

    That's communist, not socialist.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 21, 2015 11:39 a.m.

    To "Baccus0902" you really want to know what is wrong with socialism? (FYI the governments that you think of socialism are not pure socialist, they have enough capitalism running to support socialism.)

    There is the fact that it requires a strong government, that means few freedoms.

    The whole government controlling businesses is another problem.

    High tax rates that are needed to support it.

    High poverty rates, think Cuba, North Korea, or China before they opened up to capitalism, Vietnam, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc..)

    Think of millions of people killed at the hand of socialist governments simply for not wanting socialism.

    Think about socialism never being able to meet all the needs of all the people, ever.

    Socialism destroys the desire to improve your position because it makes its populace dependent on the government.

    Those are just a few of the bad points of socialism that I could think of without looking into it deeper.

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    Jan. 21, 2015 10:45 a.m.

    @ Uncle Fester: Again, how does anything he is saying differ from the teachings of Christ?

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 21, 2015 10:13 a.m.

    @Red wrote, "That means pills and devices are not allowed, but all other methods are ok. "

    Red, there are only two other methods. Periodic abstinence, i.e. rhythm, and complete abstinence. Rhythm has at best a 60% rate--if--big "if"--it's practiced faithfully. Not too many married couples are interested in total abstinence until the wife hits menopause.

  • donn layton, UT
    Jan. 21, 2015 10:12 a.m.

    RE: A Quaker. We can learn a lot from Roman Catholics.

    I was amazed by missionaries(Nuns) when I was at NKP Thailand. We were sitting on our armor watching them cross through our base perimeter into the hills to feed the starving Montagnards.

    Many years later I heard the majority of them were killed. I never met a Quaker in the Military or while I was in Southeast Asia. (Vietnam War)

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    Jan. 21, 2015 8:49 a.m.

    Uncle Fester
    "It's not just this remark it's the whole socialist enchilada he's espousing "

    What is wrong with Socialism?

    I see a lot of good in a Socialist inclined society. I think Sweden, Norway, Belgium and others Socialist countries have a lot going on for them. Am I missing something?

  • Uncle_Fester Niskayuna, NY
    Jan. 21, 2015 7:52 a.m.

    It's not just this remark it's the whole socialist enchilada he's espousing.

  • K Mchenry, IL
    Jan. 21, 2015 7:41 a.m.

    He is the head of the church for most Christians in the world and is a head of state. Of course a news organization would mention it.

    I think he is being harsh to the woman with her eight children. She is told that she can't get her tubes tied or use the pill and is doing as is taught. There is and has never been a mandate to have several kids. You just can't prevent if you are close. The method is not the catholic rhythm method. It's natural family planning. If you wanted to conceive you would use the same method to find out when you are ovulating. It's effective if you abstain during the appropriate days.

  • O'really Idaho Falls, ID
    Jan. 20, 2015 6:16 p.m.

    @ QuaKer As a matter of fact the LDS Church and Catholics have much in common when it comes to family matters. Why does that bother you? The LDS church also believes that truth can be found in many places outside our meeting house and scriptures. I've read lots of secular stuff that rings as "truth" to me.

    So it's possible to find truth in almost any religion in the world. The LDS Church even has some things in common with the Muslim faith. It really isn't such a travesty for the DN to be printing this.

    And by the way, this is international news. It wasn't only picked up by the DN.

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    Jan. 20, 2015 4:08 p.m.

    "Catholics don't have to breed 'like rabbits'’" This is by far the least elegant statement I have heard or read from any Pope. However, it represents perhaps one of the most formidable messages for the well being of humanity, Responsible Parenthood!!!

    The Pope is telling his followers: take control and care for your families. Even though the Pope still supports the Catholic Rythm Method, his calling for Population Control is in itself revolutionary.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 20, 2015 1:38 p.m.

    @Uncle_fester "The man is a Jesuit, which translates to socialist. "

    I am a socialist and I assure you this is an incorrect translation.

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    Jan. 20, 2015 12:23 p.m.

    @ Uncle Fester: Which doctrine would you like him to focus on? The Good Samaritan? The Prodigal Son? The Widows Mite? The Sermon on the Mount? Wise and foolish servants? The Talents? The Greatest Commandment and the second which is like into it?

    How is encouraging "responsible parenting" and using wisdom given by God not focusing on doctrine?

    ****
    As for the Pope's comments, I have to agree with Tyler D. The Catholic Church - any church which engages in proselytizing - decrying "ideological colonization" is extremely ironic.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Jan. 20, 2015 11:54 a.m.

    To "TheTrueVoice" I don't think you read the Pope's statement. He did not say that women could not practice Birth Control. He stated that the Catholic Doctrine states that ARTIFICIAL Birth Control is wrong. That means pills and devices are not allowed, but all other methods are ok.

  • Understands Math Lacey, WA
    Jan. 20, 2015 11:40 a.m.

    @FT wrote: "By the time this Pope's tenure is done he'll have right wing conservatives denouncing their religious leader and questioning their faith."

    Perhaps on some issues, but surely not this one.

    By re-emphasizing that Catholic dogma forbids birth control, and by stating that there is no need for Catholics to 'breed like rabbits', he is saying by inference that Catholics should be having less sex.

    (Yeah, the 'rhythm method' is still okay. You know what they call a Catholic woman who practices the 'rhythm method'? They call her 'Mom.')

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    Jan. 20, 2015 11:14 a.m.

    Given the fact that a large majority of Catholic women use chemical or physical contraception, not just using the "bingo" method for which the Pope advocates, it sounds like he's trying to haul the women back into line with what he thinks is appropriate. As the titular earthly head of the Catholic faith, it is his right to give this advice. As arbiters of what happens with their bodies, it is the right of the women to use whatever method they choose to limit the size of their families regardless what the Pope says.

    At least he has gotten somewhat away from the "just keep breeding" rhetoric heard from past Pontiffs, and recognizes that women are more than just broodmares.

  • A Quaker Brooklyn, NY
    Jan. 20, 2015 10:31 a.m.

    @bass679: Yes, but is this news? A reiteration of Catholic doctrine and guidance on family matters? It reads to me like the kind of "inside baseball" and between-the-lines reading that only Vatican watchers and that Church's lesser hierarchy engage in. The Pope gave a speech. Nothing happened. Film at 11.

    Articles like this make it seem like the LDS Church, or at least its most beloved newspaper, hungrily seeks outside validation for LDS doctrine on family matters, and will even seek it from a Church leader they do not follow, from a religion they reject.

  • bass679 Novi, MI
    Jan. 20, 2015 9:58 a.m.

    @a quaker
    It's a newspaper, one where a major section is "Faith". LDS stories make up a huge part of that section but don't you think that the goings on of one of the largest religious denominations in the world might be of interest as a "faith story"?

  • A Quaker Brooklyn, NY
    Jan. 20, 2015 9:41 a.m.

    I find it somewhat puzzling that the Deseret News is consistently enthralled with the doings of the Catholic Church and Pope. You follow him closely and cite him as if he was the religious leader of the whole world. I thought you guys had your own religion, were proud of it, and had an entirely different Church hierarchy?

    What gives?

  • TheTrueVoice West Richland, WA
    Jan. 20, 2015 8:49 a.m.

    Interesting strategy.

    Contend that catholics "don't have to breed like rabbits", but then denounce the use of birth control.

    Brilliant.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Jan. 20, 2015 8:44 a.m.

    @tyler d
    "I submit this (coming from the Catholic Church and their history in the developing world) as the most ironically rich statement of the 21st century so far."
    Best comment of the month.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Jan. 20, 2015 8:32 a.m.

    "Every people deserves to conserve its identity without being ideologically colonized," Francis said.”

    I submit this (coming from the Catholic Church and their history in the developing world) as the most ironically rich statement of the 21st century so far.

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Jan. 20, 2015 8:27 a.m.

    By the time this Pope's tenure is done he'll have right wing conservatives denouncing their religious leader and questioning their faith. He is no stoolie of the rich, well established Catholic.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Jan. 20, 2015 7:58 a.m.

    @ Uncle_Fester, doctrine like what kind of birth control a person is allowed to use? The Catholic Church dipped into this arena long before the current Pope.

  • emb Pleasant Grove, UT
    Jan. 20, 2015 6:24 a.m.

    Well said. emb

  • Uncle_Fester Niskayuna, NY
    Jan. 20, 2015 5:59 a.m.

    The man is a Jesuit, which translates to socialist. This is why he is becoming vocal on progressive issues. He should stick to doctrine.