"Catholics don't have to breed "like rabbits" and should
instead practice "responsible parenting."Sounds funny but I
would look at that as good old common sense advice.....LOL! Kudos to him for
Baccus0902. I find it rather disingenuous to try to argue the merits of
socialism and communism using LDS scriptures when Mormon leaders have made it
quite clear that such systems that promote government control over personal free
will are against God. Perhaps you might read ET Benson's excellent 1969
book "An Enemy Hath Done This" to get a better feel for the Mormon
position on communism. I see a used copy on Amazon for 19.99. Another good one
of Richard Vetterli's "The Constitution By A Thread".
@ Tyler D,Yes, the Pope's statement contained irony and your quip was
both funny and contained elements of truth but wouldn't the irony be as
great coming from the heads of government of the Western European secular states
that we both admire? My problem with the Pope's statement is
his notion of what constitutes imposition."African
bishops...have long complained about how progressive, Western ideas about birth
control...are increasingly being imposed on the developing world...as a
condition for development aid."The governments are not required
to take the aid but are the programs described the best method to put
autocratic, elitist states on the road to democratic capitalism? Democratic, capitalist states have a demographic crisis of their own.
Birthrates are dangerously low and might threaten the ability of these countries
to grow economically and maintain the cultural identity that promotes government
that in turn promotes freedom.
To "Baccus0902" then tell us where pure socialism has been tried and has
worked.You claim it is a good system, yet I have yet to see anywhere
in history where it has actually worked.If you go with any biblical
or BoM examples, I will tell you right now that those are not examples of
socialism because it was not government mandated or controlled and was a
voluntary sharing of goods.What about the statement by the First
Presidency, do you also disagree with that? It was a signed letter by them
stating that Communism and other similar isms are of the Devil. Are you saying
that you only agree with what the Prophet says as long as it corresponds to your
RedSHirt,I am fully aware of the "past" stand of the LDS Church on
Communism and the United Order. I just happen to disagree with those personal
opinions of some leaders.But this exchange is not to convince you of
anything. This is just an opportunity to get to know other current of
opinions.However, I would like to insist that the Scriptures; the
Bible, The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Convenants make a strong
pro-socialist argument. When you judge Socialism for the failures of
the USSR, China or North Korea it is like judging Christianity solely on the
basis of the Holy Inquisition and the Crusades.
To "Baccus0902" socialism is not an unselfish system. It is a selfish
system. The difference is that you reduce the need for money, but you now have
immense power being wielded by a few individuals.Yes, look at what
has happened with Free schools. Our Elementary and High Schools are being
turned into indoctrination centers (something we were warned about in the
1970's).Social Security is bankrupt and is spending more than
it brings in.Medicare/Medicaid have also failed.Since
when were thought crimes a good thing to have?You do realize that
anti-discrimination laws are nothing more than legalized slavery. Since when is
slavery good? If you are an active LDS member, you would know that
multiple Prophets have declared that the United Order is NOT like communism.
You would know that Communism is one of Satan's tools for destroying the
soul of men. Just look at the 1942 First Presidency letter that declared
Communism to be of the Devil, or read President Benson's talks where he
discusses it, or many other prophets that have also stated the same thing.
RedShirt:Of course, this subject is way bigger than what we can cover in
this very limited forum. However, what you mention as Socialism's maladies
can be seen throughout the history of the world with all political systems. Capitalism appeals to the selfishness of individuals. Socialism appeals
to the goodness of individuals.You bring up horrible situations of
gone wong social and politicial experiments. Socialism is a process
that needs to occur gradually by developing a social/community consciosness
among the meber of society. Socialism cannot be imposed by force. A socialist
conciosness is taking place in the U.S. and in the world, some examples of that
evolution are:- work week of 40 hours maximum- Free/Compulsory
Public School - Social Security- Medicare and Medicaid-
Anti-Hate Laws- Anti Discrimination LawsIf you a an LDS you
will see that the United Order was a "Communist" precept. Very much like
the primitive Church in Act 4:32 "And the multitude of them that believed
were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the
things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
To "atl134" communism is just a more controlling version of socialism.
They both effectively do the same thing. They are both collectivist
philosophies that have lead to the destruction of many lives.Tell
us, what do you think the difference is between Socialism and Communism is?
I find this whole tempest in a teapot hilarious, given the fact that Utah has
the highest birth rate in the nation.
To Laura Bilington and all the others who have no clue about non-artificial ways
to prevent pregnancy. People mean different things by rhythm method, but the
bottom line is yes, you can be very effective in avoiding pregnancy while still
enjoying all the marriage relations you and the spouse desire. Not foolproof but
neither are other methods. So maybe you go from one kid every 14-18 months to
one every 2-3 yrs or more. You know, the goal is not to not have kids, but
rather to space them out a little more. It's just a shame people use their
ignorance to belittle another religion.
" Cuba, North Korea, or China"That's communist, not
To "Baccus0902" you really want to know what is wrong with socialism?
(FYI the governments that you think of socialism are not pure socialist, they
have enough capitalism running to support socialism.)There is the
fact that it requires a strong government, that means few freedoms.The whole government controlling businesses is another problem.High tax rates that are needed to support it.High poverty rates,
think Cuba, North Korea, or China before they opened up to capitalism, Vietnam,
Venezuela, Bolivia, etc..)Think of millions of people killed at the
hand of socialist governments simply for not wanting socialism.Think
about socialism never being able to meet all the needs of all the people,
ever.Socialism destroys the desire to improve your position because
it makes its populace dependent on the government.Those are just a
few of the bad points of socialism that I could think of without looking into it
@ Uncle Fester: Again, how does anything he is saying differ from the teachings
@Red wrote, "That means pills and devices are not allowed, but all other
methods are ok. "Red, there are only two other methods.
Periodic abstinence, i.e. rhythm, and complete abstinence. Rhythm has at best a
60% rate--if--big "if"--it's practiced faithfully. Not too many
married couples are interested in total abstinence until the wife hits
RE: A Quaker. We can learn a lot from Roman Catholics. I was amazed
by missionaries(Nuns) when I was at NKP Thailand. We were sitting on our armor
watching them cross through our base perimeter into the hills to feed the
starving Montagnards. Many years later I heard the majority of them
were killed. I never met a Quaker in the Military or while I was in Southeast
Asia. (Vietnam War)
Uncle Fester"It's not just this remark it's the whole
socialist enchilada he's espousing "What is wrong with
Socialism? I see a lot of good in a Socialist inclined society. I
think Sweden, Norway, Belgium and others Socialist countries have a lot going on
for them. Am I missing something?
It's not just this remark it's the whole socialist enchilada he's
He is the head of the church for most Christians in the world and is a head of
state. Of course a news organization would mention it. I think he is
being harsh to the woman with her eight children. She is told that she
can't get her tubes tied or use the pill and is doing as is taught. There
is and has never been a mandate to have several kids. You just can't
prevent if you are close. The method is not the catholic rhythm method.
It's natural family planning. If you wanted to conceive you would use the
same method to find out when you are ovulating. It's effective if you
abstain during the appropriate days.
@ QuaKer As a matter of fact the LDS Church and Catholics have much in common
when it comes to family matters. Why does that bother you? The LDS church also
believes that truth can be found in many places outside our meeting house and
scriptures. I've read lots of secular stuff that rings as "truth"
to me. So it's possible to find truth in almost any religion in
the world. The LDS Church even has some things in common with the Muslim faith.
It really isn't such a travesty for the DN to be printing this.And by the way, this is international news. It wasn't only picked up by
"Catholics don't have to breed 'like rabbits'’"
This is by far the least elegant statement I have heard or read from any Pope.
However, it represents perhaps one of the most formidable messages for the well
being of humanity, Responsible Parenthood!!!The Pope is telling his
followers: take control and care for your families. Even though the Pope still
supports the Catholic Rythm Method, his calling for Population Control is in
@Uncle_fester "The man is a Jesuit, which translates to socialist. "I am a socialist and I assure you this is an incorrect translation.
@ Uncle Fester: Which doctrine would you like him to focus on? The Good
Samaritan? The Prodigal Son? The Widows Mite? The Sermon on the Mount? Wise and
foolish servants? The Talents? The Greatest Commandment and the second which is
like into it?How is encouraging "responsible parenting" and
using wisdom given by God not focusing on doctrine?****As for
the Pope's comments, I have to agree with Tyler D. The Catholic Church -
any church which engages in proselytizing - decrying "ideological
colonization" is extremely ironic.
To "TheTrueVoice" I don't think you read the Pope's statement.
He did not say that women could not practice Birth Control. He stated that the
Catholic Doctrine states that ARTIFICIAL Birth Control is wrong. That means
pills and devices are not allowed, but all other methods are ok.
@FT wrote: "By the time this Pope's tenure is done he'll have
right wing conservatives denouncing their religious leader and questioning their
faith."Perhaps on some issues, but surely not this one.By re-emphasizing that Catholic dogma forbids birth control, and by stating
that there is no need for Catholics to 'breed like rabbits', he is
saying by inference that Catholics should be having less sex.(Yeah,
the 'rhythm method' is still okay. You know what they call a Catholic
woman who practices the 'rhythm method'? They call her
Given the fact that a large majority of Catholic women use chemical or physical
contraception, not just using the "bingo" method for which the Pope
advocates, it sounds like he's trying to haul the women back into line with
what he thinks is appropriate. As the titular earthly head of the Catholic
faith, it is his right to give this advice. As arbiters of what happens with
their bodies, it is the right of the women to use whatever method they choose to
limit the size of their families regardless what the Pope says.At
least he has gotten somewhat away from the "just keep breeding" rhetoric
heard from past Pontiffs, and recognizes that women are more than just
@bass679: Yes, but is this news? A reiteration of Catholic doctrine and
guidance on family matters? It reads to me like the kind of "inside
baseball" and between-the-lines reading that only Vatican watchers and that
Church's lesser hierarchy engage in. The Pope gave a speech. Nothing
happened. Film at 11.Articles like this make it seem like the LDS
Church, or at least its most beloved newspaper, hungrily seeks outside
validation for LDS doctrine on family matters, and will even seek it from a
Church leader they do not follow, from a religion they reject.
@a quakerIt's a newspaper, one where a major section is
"Faith". LDS stories make up a huge part of that section but don't
you think that the goings on of one of the largest religious denominations in
the world might be of interest as a "faith story"?
I find it somewhat puzzling that the Deseret News is consistently enthralled
with the doings of the Catholic Church and Pope. You follow him closely and
cite him as if he was the religious leader of the whole world. I thought you
guys had your own religion, were proud of it, and had an entirely different
Church hierarchy? What gives?
Interesting strategy.Contend that catholics "don't have to
breed like rabbits", but then denounce the use of birth control.Brilliant.
@tyler d"I submit this (coming from the Catholic Church and their
history in the developing world) as the most ironically rich statement of the
21st century so far."Best comment of the month.
"Every people deserves to conserve its identity without being ideologically
colonized," Francis said.”I submit this (coming from the
Catholic Church and their history in the developing world) as the most
ironically rich statement of the 21st century so far.
By the time this Pope's tenure is done he'll have right wing
conservatives denouncing their religious leader and questioning their faith. He
is no stoolie of the rich, well established Catholic.
@ Uncle_Fester, doctrine like what kind of birth control a person is allowed to
use? The Catholic Church dipped into this arena long before the current Pope.
Well said. emb
The man is a Jesuit, which translates to socialist. This is why he is becoming
vocal on progressive issues. He should stick to doctrine.