@Rose Bowl call yet?"Solomon Levi and Truth Machine were simply
pointing out the hypocrisy of Utah fans whining about BYU's 1984 schedule,
while Utah's own 2004 schedule was just as mediocre."Wrong.
They are hypocritically saying BYU's 84 season was deserving of a national
championship by today's standards (even byu's qb disagrees) while
Utah's 2004 team "was not even deserving of a major bowl."I never said the 2004 Utes earned a National Title. See the difference? This
is very simple stuff.
truthsandwichSolomon Levi and Truth Machine were simply pointing out
the hypocrisy of Utah fans whining about BYU's 1984 schedule, while
Utah's own 2004 schedule was just as mediocre.Utah fans beat
their chests about how much harder it is to succeed in the "BCS era",
yet Utah's 2004 schedule clearly shows that Utah's BCS-busting season
had far more to do with Utah's record and fortunate timing, than
I guess according to Sooner Ute's logic then Hawaii and Cincinnati and now
UCF are perennial big time programs because they made an appearance in a BCS
The only thing that matters for money is ratings, and regardless of who plays
the games, a playoff will get ratings. I expect pressure for an 8-team playoff
within 5 years. As for those who say it's too many games, they do it in
every other college football division, and it works great.As for the
rivalry, Utes and Cougars will spout the same reasoning about whether 1984 was
legitimate or not. Check the record books. It's legitimate. As for current,
both teams are pretty mediocre right now. BYU had a decent but not great year.
Utah had a few good games but a disappointing year. Sadly, the Utes' bowl
game has been cancelled by Chris Hill for the next two years.
@Solomon Levi"The team Truth Machine described was Utah's
2004 "BCS busting" team.BYU 1984 beat four regular season
opponents that finished with winning records, including an 8-4 Air Force team
that finished #24 in the final AP poll."LOL! Are you listening
to yourselves? Allow me to just quote / paraphrase you both again, and
laugh:"do you really think a team that only beat 3 regular
season opponents with winning records, none with better than a 7-5 record, was
deserving of playing in a major bowl, let alone, even being in the discussion
for a national championship?""Yeah cuz we beat FOUR teams
with winning records, one of which went 8-4!"I'll ignore
the fact that 2004 Utah (btw, love how you guys always want to avoid comparisons
to 2008) had much higher ranked stength of schedule than 84 byu, and never won
by less than 2 touchdowns, and simply thank you both for teaming up to
emphatically prove my point.LOL!
re: CordonBleu"Nice try, but playing in a bcs bowl doesn't
prove anything - see Central Florida, Hawaii, No. Illinois, etc."A cougar fan bagging on N Illinois? Is Taysom & not J Lynch is a Heisman
truthsandwichThe team Truth Machine described was Utah's 2004
"BCS busting" team.BYU 1984 beat four regular season
opponents that finished with winning records, including an 8-4 Air Force team
that finished #24 in the final AP poll.
@ Truth Machine"but do you really think a team that only beat 3
regular season opponents with winning records, none with better than a 7-5
record, was deserving of playing in a major bowl, let alone, even being in the
discussion for a national championship?"Did you describe
BYU's 84 season to prove my point on purpose, or was that an accident?LOL
truthsandwichThe rules for qualifying for a major bowl may have
changed a little to provide non-major conference programs more access, but do
you really think a team that only beat 3 regular season opponents with winning
records, none with better than a 7-5 record, was deserving of playing in a major
bowl, let alone, even being in the discussion for a national championship?In a completely fair system, BYU 1984 would have been invited to play
Oklahoma, Washington, or Nebraska in a major bowl to prove whether BYU deserved
to be #1.Absent that, either Washington or Nebraska could have
accepted their invitation to play the #1-ranked Cougars in the Holiday Bowl to
prove that they were more deserving than BYU to be ranked #1.It's laughable that jealous Utah fans are still so obsessed with BYU
1984, yet they have absolutely no problem claiming a 1944 NCAA tournament
championship against the weakest field in the history of the NCAA tournament.
truthsandwichWhat you don't seem to be able to understand is
that the method used by the AP to determine their national champion is exactly
the same today as it was in 1936 - each AP voter votes for whichever team he/she
thinks is most deserving of being the national champion for that particular
year. Each voter is free to use whatever criteria he/she sees fit in making that
selection.In 1984, the majority of AP voters selected BYU as THE
MOST DESERVING team to be selected 1984 national champion, even though BYU did
not play the most difficult schedule in the country.In 2003, the
majority of AP voters selected USC as THE MOST DESERVING team to be selected
2003 national champion, even though USC did not play in the BCS championship
game.Unfortunately for U, the AP voters didn't consider Utah to
be the most deserving team to be selected 2004 or 2008 national champion.
Mike WEvery sports fan knows that ultimate prize in any competition
is a championship and in major college football that prize is a national
championship.NOBODY cares how difficult or easy your journey to get
there was, all they care about is that you finished ahead of every other
team.In BYU's case, it took FIVE 11+ win, Top 12 seasons over a
period of six years, and 24 straight wins and back-to-back Top 10 finishes to
reach and finish #1 in both major polls.As much as jealous Utah fans
would like to pretend otherwise, Utah has never accomplished anything even
remotely comparable to what BYU accomplished from 1979 to 1984.
@4601"BYU received the NC trophy in 1984 from others, they
didn't award it to themselves. Move on, your polemic is getting
stale"Never have I suggested anything remotely close to "byu
awarding it to themselves."What I've pointed out to those
in denial is that the system has changed since then. Dramatically. I acknowledge
it was a National Championship by 1984's standards. It would not be close
to a National Championship by today's standards.Nice straw man
@ SEC Rules My point is that since the BCS didn't exist in
1996. Therefore this statement: "The 96 season when BYU was ranked 5th in
the Nation and was snubbed by the BCS Bowl Proletariat caused an outcry"
makes you look very silly and uniformed.
truthsandwichRANDOLPH, UTBYU received the NC trophy in 1984 from
others, they didn't award it to themselves. Move on, your polemic is
BYU didn't even know whether they were going to be crowned the national
champs until weeks after they beat a 6-6 team in a lower tier bowl.The system hasn't changed.LOL
re: LetsDebateYou should really check out the link for TipTop25,
fixing 1984 (can't post link, sorry, but google it) - some highlights:Played 96th most difficult schedule out of 98 teams.Did not play a
single opponent who was ranked in final poll.Despite this schedule, still
had FIVE GAMES they won by a touchdown or less.Washington beat the same
Michigan team, in Michigan, by a bigger margin.Keep telling yourself
how great 6-6 Michigan was... there is simply no doubt that if BYU were in the
Pac 10 at that time they would have never finished unbeaten. You should be
rooting for Utah to succeed, dominate in the Pac 12 to give validity to 1984,
unfortunately all Utah has shown is that teams like Utah, TCU, Boise, Hawaii,
BYU never really were National Championship caliber, just beneficiaries of easy
schedules and weak conferences, capable of pulling some upsets (Miami, Alabama,
Oklahoma spring to mind), but week-to-week unable to match up - it stinks, but
it is a proven fact now.
re: Sports FanYour question posed at the end, which would EVERY
college fan choose, is interesting... I'd propose an analogy of sorts...
would you rather be able to say you've climbed Mt. Everest, or that
you've climbed K2? Everyone knows Mt. Everest and thinks climbing the
world's highest mountain is the ultimate feat, and you can probably make a
nice living as a motivational speaker from it... except, real mountaineers know
climbing K2 (climbed by only about 1/10th as many) is the real prize, it's
far more difficult, and while anyone can pay to get up Everest, you have to be a
real climber to climb K2. BYU's National Championship looks nice, and
sounds good to the un-informed, but anyone who really takes the time to look at
the stats, the level of competition, realizes that 2008 Utah's
accomplishment is greater.
2ferThe bcs is failed experiment that is on its last dying legs.National Championship winners, on the other hand, are indelibly
imprinted on the history of major college football.If they could
choose only one trophy to display in their athletic hall of fame, which trophy
would EVERY college football fan choose?- A Crystal Football
National Championship Trophy- A Sugar Bowl Championship Trophy
@ Two For Flinching"The BCS wasn't around in
1996...."And your point is...?
@ SEC RulesThe BCS wasn't around in 1996....
Elmer Fudd120 football seasons and the Utes still haven't come
close to winning a national championship.Where have the mighty weak
uties been since 1892?The Utes have only had TWO 11+ win seasons and
only FIVE AP Top 25 finishes in their entire football history.Bronco
has had THREE 11+ win seasons and FOUR AP Top 25 finishes in the last 8 seasons.
Mr plateYou don't understand what a BCS Bowl is. It is The N
Champ, Rose, Sugar, Fiesta and Orange Bowls. If you make it to one of those, it
is a HUGE ACCOMPLISHMENT! If Hawaii made it to one of those, they would prob be
undefeated and ranked in TOP 14. So your example is the joke.If a
team is ranked 20-60th ala BYU...(utes way lower) and BYU win s bowl game,
because of the bowl scenario 20 other teams will lose and drop...they usually
can sneak in at 20 or 22 this year. If BYU beats a non ranked, 6th place team
from the PAC in Washington. Is it an elite team? No. USU is playing a tougher
opponent. With its coaching staff intact.Do you think if BYU wins
they should be ranked higher than 20th? Don't have a dog in this fight but
what does everyone think?
BYU opened the door for the "BCS Buster". The 96 season when BYU was
ranked 5th in the Nation and was snubbed by the BCS Bowl Proletariat caused an
outcry - - - years later BYU quarterback Steve Young entered the hearing room to
offer his testimony before the House Judiciary Committee, joined by NCAA
President Myles Brand, Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany and Tulane President
Scott Cowen. What happened next...? Utah, Boise State and even
Hawaii were able to partake. Thank you, BYU.
"Florida St-Auburn title game to usher out BCS era"15 years
of the BCS system: BYU has failed to reach a BCS game while seeing the likes of
Utah, Boise State, and TCU playing in BCS games (twice). Heck even Hawaii and
Northern Illinois have played in BCS games. Where has the mighty
Cougies been the past 15 years?
51 programs over 16 seasons versus 16 programs over 30 seasons - even a blind
man could see which group is truly elite, and which group is filled with also
rans.In case you're still unsure, notice how many teams are
awarded a Crystal Football National Championship Trophy at the end of the bowl
@SoonerUte - oh yeah? Well...OK - I get it about the 51 teams, and
you got me there. Still, I do agree with CordonBleu about the ultimate
measuring stick. Since the BCS system has been elitist and non-inclusive, and
teams no better than BYU have lucked out not only with weak schedules, but often
in inferior BCS conferences, to get an occasional shot at one of the BCS bowl
games, I don't think the system lends itself to an altogether fair
analysis. If a program is frequently a top-25 team but never makes a BCS bowl,
as BYU regularly finishes, it's certainly no evidence they are a
bottom-half program among college teams. Likewise, an appearance in a BCS bowl
does not make Hawaii a better program than BYU. What a joke.
SoonerUteSpeaking of football excellence, Whittingham did have ONE
great season in 2008; but Bronco had THREE excellent 11-win seasons surrounding
Kyle's ONE great season.Putting that in perspective,
that's more 11-win seasons for BYU since 2006, than the Utes have had in
their entire football history - 2004 and 2008.BYU has had TEN such
seasons in their football history - 1979, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996,
2006, 2007 and 2009!
Sooner Ute"That's the problem, isn't it? BYU's
last national accomplishment was 30 years ago."Only a jealous
Utah fan whose team has never won a major college football national championship
would see that as a "problem".
truthsandwichBYU accomplished what no other team in the country did
in 1984; the Cougars finished #1 in the AP and Coaches polls.Regardless of how our jealous little friends on the hill spin it,#1 > #2 or #4 or #5For #1, you get a Crystal Football National
Championship Trophy that sportscasters still talk about 30 years after the
fact.For #2, you get a meaningless parade that no one living outside
the crimson bubble even remembers.The bcs will soon fade into
nothing more than a footnote on major college football history.The
list of national champions, however, will endure as long as major college
Let's RollAgreed.I'm looking forward to the
playoffs next year, and wouldn't mind seeing it go to eight teams. But it
will be interesting to see the impact that has on how we view the importance of
other major bowls.
anti BCSUtah finished #4 AP in 2004; #2 AP in 2008.Of
course, in the official poll crowning the BCS national champion, the Coaches
poll, the Utes only finished #5 in 2004 and #4 in 2008.For all of
their squawking about the "superiority" of the bcs system, Utah fans
still aren't willing to face the reality that the best the Utes have ever
finished in the system they so widely proclaim is a distant 4th.Bottom line: there are two iconic trophies associated with major college
football team and individual achievement - the Crystal Football National
Championship trophy and the Heisman Trophy.Both trophies are
displayed proudly in BYU's Legacy Hall of Fame.The Utes have
never come close to winning either.
"In the last 30 years..." -- CordonBleuThat's the problem,
isn't it? BYU's last national accomplishment was 30 years ago. "playing in a bcs bowl doesn't prove anything - see Central
Florida, Hawaii, No. Illinois"Playing in a BCS Bowl is an excellent
measure of success. TCU, Utah, UCF, Hawaii, No Illinois are all excellent
examples of football programs that have grown during the modern era of football.
What does "not making it" prove? It proves BYU is not growing. If
making a BCS Bowl is no big deal, why couldn't BYU make the list?
It will be interesting to see how many years it will take before the playoff
expands beyond 4 teams. Using this years rankings only 3 of the "Big 5"
conferences would be represented (Pac-12 and Big-12 left out).The
SEC is likely to take two spots each year, so the pressure from major
conferences whose champions can't even get into the playoff is going to be
enormous.Also, will be interesting to see how much cache will remain
for the former BCS bowls. Finally, Stanford can't catch a
break. MSU has to be the worst possible (Big 10) match up for them. A team
that can stop the run and pound the football. Kind of the anti-Oregon.
I'm thinking it's going to be close and low scoring. Good luck to the
Jealous Utah fans would like us to believe that the AP voters and Coaches of
today are more intelligent and better informed than the AP voters and Coaches of
1984.Of course, that's what you'd expect of the fan base
of a program that didn't accomplish anything on a national scale prior to
Congrats to BYU for doing what only 5 other teams were able to do that season:
beat Michigan.When a team is crowned "National Champion" by
beating the worst teams in college football, then beating a mediocre team in a
mediocre bowl, most people consider it ridiculous. Hence all of the
"Bo-Diddly Tech" comments.I'm glad that it happened
though because it inspired a revamp, albeit incomplete, of what was clearly a
broken system.And for the coug fans getting their feathers ruffled
by my comments, take it up with Robbie Boscoe, SI, and all of the sports writers
who agree that what byu did in 84 would NOT be considered a National
Championship by today's standards.'m only quoting.
truthsandwichIn 1936, AP voters selected who they considered the #1
major college football team in the country; no criteria was given to voters use
in selecting who they thought was #1; each voter was allowed to use whatever
criteria he/she considered appropriate.In 1984, AP voters selected
who they considered the #1 major college football team in the country; no
criteria was given to voters use in selecting who they thought was #1; each
voter was allowed to use whatever criteria he/she considered appropriate.In 2013, AP voter will select who they consider to be the #1 major
college football team in the country; no criteria will be given to voters to use
in selecting who they think is #1; each voter will be allowed to use whatever
criteria he/she considers appropriate.So please explain, in detail,
how the selection process for the #1 team in 1936 differed from the selection
process for the #1 team in 1984 or will differ from the selection process for
determining the #1 team in 2013.The AP national champion didn't
even play in the BCS championship game in 2003.
@Mike W - that's the same worn-out tripe by typical low-information BYU
detractors who weren't there, weren't paying attention, or mis-state
facts. Michigan started 1984 as a top team, then suffered injuries to several
key players that led to 6 losses, then had a completely recuperated, healthy
team with a huge chip on its shoulder for their bowl game against BYU. So, BYU
didn't play the injury-plagued mediocre Michigan team that lost 6 games,
but rather a very healthy, dangerous Michigan team, and beat them.Since there was no obligation for coaches or media to vote for a BCS
Championship Game winner in 1984, I wonder who forced them all to vote for a
supposedly inferior team? Probably not one of them was as smart as you and
truthsandwich.Furthermore, after all the whining by Oklahoma and
Washington about the unfairness of Washington finishing the season ranked behind
national champion BYU, the very next game in the following season BYU played
Washington and was widely expected to get their comeuppance. Well, BYU walloped
Washington very handily. That should have put to rest all the lame "BYU
didn't deserve it" yammer, yet it persists nearly 30 years later.
SoonerUteNice try, but playing in a bcs bowl doesn't prove
anything - see Central Florida, Hawaii, No. Illinois, etc.If
you're going to measure ultimate success, then the only logical measuring
stick is national championships.In the last 30 years (1984 to 2013),
only 16 different program have been consensus national champions - #1 in both
the AP and Coaches final polls.BYU is one of those teams.Utah is not.
@Anti BCS"There is no "previous system" for the AP. The
AP National Champion has been selected in EXACTLY the same way since 1936, with
the team with the majority of #1 votes finishing #1 in the poll."Tell me, what's it like going through the mental gymnastics to convince
yourself that's true?That's like saying "the National
Championship is won the EXACT same way now as it was in 1936, by someone being
handed a trophy."Yes but how did they get that trophy? Alabama
WON their crown last year by playing in a major bowl, a National Championship
game, and winning.Which National Championship game did byu play in?
Which major bowl even? "Under the current system, we would have
gone to a major bowl, but there would have been 4 or 5 teams ranked ahead of us
in the polls." -Robbie BoscoeWhat system could the QB be
talking about, Anti? You said the system hasn't changed?Sorry,
byu's trophy IS emblematic of a nice season where they beat a bunch of bad
teams, but mostly of a broken system.
"BCS (I think you mean FBS) bowl games" -- MrPlateNo, I mean BCS
Bowl Games. The article is about the BCS era, not this year's FBS
games.The BCS has been around for 16 years, originally with 4 bowl
games, and then 5 bowl games. Historic total of 72 BCS bowl games, with 51
unique teams participating. Several teams have been multiple times, from 10 for
Ohio State down to 2 each Utah & TCU.
@SoonerUte - out of curiosity, is one of the bowl teams accepting a forfeit, or
are there three teams playing in one of the bowl games? Or, since you mention
"different" teams making it to BCS (I think you mean FBS) bowl games,
perhaps some teams play in more than one game?
re: anti-BCSLet's not go too overboard with the 1984
"National Championship" thing for BYU... they played a schedule so
ridiculous that they are probably the single biggest reason we have a BCS system
now - to weed out pretenders. I've heard numerous BYU fans even
acknowledge that their 1983 and 1996 teams were better. The stumblings by Utah
and TCU in their new, big boy conferences only shows what frauds these 1984
Cougars, or 2004 Utah teams were - good teams yes, but hardly championship
caliber (I'll give '08 Utah more respect for a tougher schedule and
the win over Alabama, though they had some absurdly lucky, unconvincing wins,
not unlike '84 BYU).
51 different teams made it to BCS Bowls. Not making the list puts you in the
bottom half of Division One football, and means you haven't had a
significant national accomplishment in (at least) 16 years. Interesting.
CBS ranks the bowls:#17 Holiday#16 Poinsettia - Utah
State 8-5 vs. No. 23 Northern Illinois 12-1This game is close to
nirvana for the college football hipsters that have been following both of these
teams the last few years.#15 Fight Hunger - BYU 8-4 vs. Washington
8-4Washington may be under an interim coach while waiting for Chris
Petersen to take over, but it still has a lot of talent and will be facing a BYU
defense with its share of talent as well.#11 Las Vegas - #20 Fresno
State vs. #25 USCThings worked out pretty well for the Las Vegas
Bowl. It's the second bowl game that will be played this year, but it also
features two ranked teams.#8 Alamo - #10 Oregon vs. Texas 8-4#7 Fiesta - #15 UCF vs. #6 Baylor#6 Capital One - #19
Wisconsin vs. #9 South Carolina#5 Sugar - #3 Alabama vs. #11
Oklahoma#4 Cotton - #8 Missouri vs. #12 Oklahoma State#3
Orange - #12 Clemson vs. #7 Ohio State#2 Rose - #5 Stanford vs. #4
Michigan State#1 BCS Championship - #1 Florida State vs. #2 Auburn
this is not an insult but a compliment -but that is impressive that even though
Utah isn't in a bowl this season, they still had an impact on the national
race. That would have been a serious debate as to whether a 1-loss Stanford
team (only loss to USC) would be chosen over a 1-loss Auburn team with Stanford
having played a better overall schedule. Maybe SEC bias would have kicked in.
But even still, Utah's win over Stanford showed that Utah was a team to be
reckoned with. that is a benefit of joining an elite conference - even if the
difficult schedule leads to more losses, its fun to have more chances against
the best teams.
whoamisir?"Utah defeating Alabama in the Sugar Bowl and being
the only undefeated team that year probably would have been the national champs
under the system before the BCS."There is no "previous
system" for the AP. The AP National Champion has been selected in EXACTLY
the same way since 1936, with the team with the majority of #1 votes finishing
#1 in the poll.BYU finished #1 in BOTH polls in 1984.Utah
finished #2 AP in 2004.Using the "bcs system", the Utes
finished #6 in 2004 and 2008.In the official poll crowning the bcs
champion (the Coaches poll), the Utes finished #5 2004 and #4 2008, almost
identical to BYU's 14-1 Cotton Bowl winning team that finished #5 in both
polls.The irony is a program that threw themselves a parade for
finishing #2/#4 bad mouthing a program that actually has a Crystal Football
National Championship trophy, the trophy awarded to the BCS champion, sitting
proudly in their Legacy Hall of Fame.
I loved enjoying BCS glory, twice.Utah is the only big time program
in the state, and is the only team with a true national future. Go
Utes!And in all reality, the BCS is here to stay. Yes, there will
be a playoff. But it will be very very very rare that a non-BCS(now we'll
just say non power conference) team ever makes it to the playoffs.The only big time program in the nation that isn't in a power conference
is Notre DAme. All others are hardly worthy mentioning.
Deamon,I guess byu's consolation is that byu was never or will
ever be involved.
I guess Utah's consolation is that they probably knocked Stanford out of
the title game. I guess that SOS finally meant something.
What a joke the BCS championship game was only one year ago. Fans by the
millions went to the bathroom and then to the fridge for another brew before
the end of the first half and turned off the T.V.... Millions of dollars lost by
major sponsors with millions NOT tuned in to the blow-out. Biggest BCS joke
ever. This move to a four team play-off is certainly an improvement.
It was what it was. I would suspect most fans are glad to see it end and hope
the new system will lead to a "fairer" way to select the national
champion. Utah defeating Alabama in the Sugar Bowl and being the only
undefeated team that year probably would have been the national champs under the
system before the BCS. That said the BCS era was very good for the better teams
in the "mid-major" conferences. Utah was the first BCS busters, beat
Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, and was undefeated in '04 and '08. This
resulted in them being admitted to the PAC-12 conference. Boise State was in
two BCS bowls and won both and was invited to join the Big East (eventually
declined the invitation as a result of demise of the Big East. TCU was in two
BCS bowls winning one - losing one when pitted against Boise State. As a result
TCU was admitted to the Big 12 conference. (Combined record of these three
schools 5-1 (scheduling did not allow 6-0! Louisville, Cincinnati, Northern
Illinois, UCF and Hawaii also played in BCS games. Thanks for the
launching pad and now let's look forward to the new challenges!