Please stop the bickering

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  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 8, 2013 9:31 a.m.

    Tyler D,

    Well said. I am often amazed that folks want us to "go back" to something that has not existed within recent memory - sometimes not within the memory of nearly anyone living. And, to adopt a model that EVERY advanced nation on earth has found wanting. I see the same thing with the no Federal Reserve argument.

    What I find so odd is that these arguments come from "conservatives". The net effect seems to be one of rejecting every practical model we have in the real world and instead relying on one of theory (again, they may have worked at one time but that was quite literally a different time and economy from the one we have now). I do not understand how betting huge sections of the economy on unproven theories can be conservative.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 8, 2013 8:42 a.m.

    @2 bits – “... should we address the thing on the top of the budget list (and growing)?

    Absolutely… and what would you suggest? Would you suggest the ideological and non-existent (in the developed world) pure free market approach, or might we look at what other developed countries have done and try to cobble together the best aspects of their approaches?

    Guess I’ve already given away my answer…

    I trust from some of your past comments that you have a basic understanding of economics and so know that the free market works amazingly well when monopoly pricing power is absent. Sadly, this is not the case with healthcare. The demand function for live saving care combined with an inherent asymmetrical information problem drives the costs.

    There are sound economic reasons why all developed countries have some degree of regulation in their healthcare markets, and many of their regulations result in their citizens getting the same timely & quality care we get at much lower prices.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Oct. 8, 2013 8:19 a.m.

    During the last primary election cycle Republican candidates actually were saying they would shut down entire government departments. Well, now you have it. As rabbut said own it. Instead you all are running around saying he did, not me, and I didn't mean this group.

    2bits is willing to have markets self correct so I assume he/she is willing to accept the cataclysmic effects of such corrections (even the most ardent free market proponents admit that while effective self corrections can and will be cataclysmic). So man up and be proud of your smaller government. Brag about it and run on it in 2014. Cataclysmic, so what it's all good.

  • rabbut Ogden, UT
    Oct. 8, 2013 1:01 a.m.

    I am always surprised at the people who voted for the pretentiously named "tea party" (who liked to say "government IS the problem") and then are amazed, angered and confounded when the government is closed. THIS is what you voted for! Please be happy when social security checks stop coming and medicare no longer will pay your medical bills! THIS is what you voted for! Don't complain when your federal job no longer needs you. THIS is what you voted for! Don't be surprised when ideological intransigence usurps good sense in government. THIS is what YOU voted for!

    I'm tired of the anti-government extreme right pretending this is all a surprise. YOU VOTED FOR IT. Now own it. Mike Lee voters; that is YOU. YOU and your ilk shut down the government, quit pretending that this is not your fondest fantasy.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 6:05 p.m.

    Why are we listening to any of the conservatives on this board? Have we forgotten so quickly what they did to our country between 2000-08?

    These folks think that the cure to every ill is an invasion on some country in the Middle East, tax cuts for the wealthy, and bank bailouts.

    Why anyone thinks that they have the answer to anything is beyond me.

    It's pretty obvious folks that the Tea Party, which hijacked the GOP, cares very little about the long-term success of the GOP. They don't care about Obama. They don't even care about the Constitution. They have been completely and utterly funded by the Koch bros and now seek to destroy Obamacare.

    They desire to turn our country into a 3rd world nation.

    Perhaps the best thing that could happen to our country is to go off the debt cliff. Plunge us into another depression. Then. And only then. Will the Tea Party pundits, like Lee and Chaffetz, be exposed for the idealess hot air balloons that they are.

    Perhaps, only then, can we return to solid economic policy, rational entitlement reform, immigration reform that makes sense, and prosperity.

  • Luke Nelson West Valley City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 5:17 p.m.

    "If their mission statement is based on what people were alleged to have said hundreds of years ago, can their mission of today be of any importance to today’s world’"

    I may not agree with the Tea Party, but that logic doesn't make sense.

    If we were to accept that logic we would on the same grounds have to reject the theory of evolution on the basis that it is based on what someone said a long time ago.

    Why shouldn't we look to our past and learn from it?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 4:44 p.m.

    Irony Guy,
    Re: "War is the biggest line item in the federal budget"...

    The irony is... that is not true.

    Google "2014 US federal budget pie chart" and go to the first link listed (usgovernmentspendingDOTcom) sorry I can't post URLs.

    You may be surprised to learn that Defense is actually #3 on the list.
    - Healthcare 26%
    - Pensions 25%
    - Defense 22%

    Interesting and ironic how talking points you hear all the time are not always true?

    So... with that little nugget of information newly inserted into your reality... should we address the thing on the top of the budget list (and growing)?

    I agree we should cut defense and war expenses if possible (but not radically). We also need to try to not let healthcare and pension expenses continue to grow.

    The debt extension debate is going to be interesting, but it's not the right time to be negotiating budget reduction. That discussion should happen WAY before the debt limit debate. Waiting for the debt limit cliff to arrive before discussing budget reduction is like a family waiting till the bill collectors are calling and shutting things off to start talking about updating the budget.

    TeaParty is not the enemy.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 4:01 p.m.

    2 bits.

    I always thought that as an ultra liberal I was a Uber-liberal but now I’m not sure. The more I learn about the Tea Party, from their own mouths, the more I feel the need to vilify them. And as an American I feel that they are my enemy.

    Previously their mission statement contained a phrase that they were opposed to government regulations. That doesn’t seem to be in the current mission statement but from other information I still believe that one of their greatest objections to government is the regulations.

    The other notable aspect about their platform is the absence of any living leaders quoted. Ronald Regan being the most recent dead man quoted. If their mission statement is based on what people were alleged to have said hundreds of years ago, can their mission of today be of any importance to today’s world’

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 2:23 p.m.

    There are multiple ways to get an economic crisis. Defaulting on the debt is just one of them. Nobody is blaming the debt ceiling standoff of 2011 on the 2008 recession, they're just saying that if we didn't raise the debt ceiling in 2011 we'd cause another recession immediately (since defaulting on the debt would be like making ourselves Greece).

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 1:40 p.m.

    99% of the bickering in our national government comes from the squabbling and competing of the state governments and the business they represent. Most people think that competition is a good thing but in government it is not.

    All wars are economically created. They are the result of competition between business interests. Because business interests can own and operate government simply because of their financial power they will use the government of people to their business advantage.

    The problem with government by business is that issues of importance to people and the people themselves are only used as gun fodder in the business wars.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 12:55 p.m.

    The dollar is the world's reserve currency. That status is predicated on the fact that the United States always, always pays our bills. We paid our bills after the Revolutionary War. We paid them during and after the Civil War. We paid them through WWI and WWII and during the Great Depression. If that record ever falls, the dollar could lose its reserve currency status. Since the entire world economy is based on dollars, it could very well trigger a global collapse.

    The only times in the past that any countries have stopped paying their debts was because they could no longer afford them. If we do, it will not be because we can't, it will be because a few anarchists in congress refuse to let us.

    No one who would say they favor a default can ever claim the status of conservative again. That would be the most recklessly destructive act in our history, the very antithesis of conservatism.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 7, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    I agree that the situation here is much more dire. But yes, it does remind me of children bickering. Thanks.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Oct. 7, 2013 12:45 p.m.

    Can't say I'm a member of the Uber-left, maybe the Unter-left. But I DO want to reduce spending and debt. War is the biggest line item in the federal budget. By cutting war spending in half, we could maintain plenty of strength and easily balance and eliminate the debt within a decade or so. Republicans won't do it. Instead,Bush cut revenues and then blew through the budget with stupid wars on credit.

  • SG in SLC Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 12:29 p.m.

    @2 bits

    "And while we're on your [Roland Kayser's alleged] strawman... has the economy been destroyed? Stock market indexes don't indicate that."

    Actually, the DJIA and the S&P500 have experienced a pretty steady decline since September 17th, and the NASDAQ Composite index (which is more heavily weighted toward tech & biotech stocks; read into that what you will) has generally traded "sideways" rather than experiencing gains since September 17th.

    Now, before you say, "That was before the shutdown, so it's not related", it is important to note that, even though Wall St. tends to vascillate between exhuberance and paranoia, it also tends to be pretty savvy about anticipating and factoring in economic events. While there are certainly other factors that started the stock market ball rolling downhill on September 17th, the House passing HJR 59 (the CR with the ACA-defunding amendment) on September 20th, and subsequent events, have certainly become increasingly significant factors in the stock market decline.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 12:13 p.m.

    Uber-liberals feel the need to vilify the "tea party", even if they don't even know what it is.

    It's NOT a party or brand (like the Republican or Democrat, or even the Libertarian party). It's a grass-roots movement to get people who respect the original intent of the Constitution and the roll of government in our lives elected.

    They aren't just Republicans. Most of the Tea Party people I know identify themselves as Libertarians, or just plain Conservatives (not staunch party partisan Republicans).

    Uber-liberals must feel very threatened by the philosophy of the Tea Party (because they are constantly attacking them in this opinion pages).

    I don't see the need to constantly attack them and vilify them daily (as we see consistently from SOME posters here). The aren't RIGHT on everything, but they sure aren't WRONG on everything either. And they aren't the cause of all evil the Left keeps trying to paint them as (just because they tend to have a reduce spending and debt bend to their personal philosophy).

    I think anybody who wants to reduce spending and debt will be viciously attacked by the Uber-left.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 11:53 a.m.

    The conservatives extremists need to be reasonable and vow not to use obstructionist hostage tactics. (Amended)

  • All American Herriman, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 11:11 a.m.

    Everyone needs to get over the "tea party". It's not a tea party - that happened many, many years ago. It's not a political party at all. They need to change their name to Conservative Americans because that's ALL they are - a large number of conservative Americans who are sick and tired of the liberal, progressive, spend-thrift, divisive politicians. I'm glad there are at least a few "obstructionist" politicians (who happen to be Republicans). Someone needs to have the back bone to protest the ruination of this country by the liberals!

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 10:55 a.m.

    Roland Kayser,
    The debt ceiling debate hasn't even started yet. So what Republican said "Do what I want or I'll wreck the economy"?

    We didn't have a debt ceiling debate in 2008, and yet we had an economic meltdown. So I don't see how you link the two together. We DID have a debt ceiling crisis in 2011, but it's very hard to blame the economy melt-down in 2008 on a debate that wouldn't happen until 2011.

    Obviously it was something else that caused the 2008 event. What do you think it was? I have my own opinion. I think it was America's sharp departure from free market principles to bail out companies that failed, combined with a bleak market outlook for the coming years. What's your theory? Republican sabotage? Republicans trying to sink the economy during a Republican administration??

    I love the way anti-free-market people point to 2008 as PROOF that capitalism doesn't work. So let me understand... it worked for 200+ years, and if it has a correction at any time during those years... it's a total failure. These people don't understand economics. Corrections are part of a free economy.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 10:37 a.m.

    2 bits: If we breach the debt ceiling you will see an economic cataclysm that will make 2008 seem like a day in the park.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 7, 2013 10:35 a.m.

    The other day a homeless man at the corner store asked for my change. I politely said no but then neglected to see that he followed me home.

    Later this same man broke into our house, held a knife to my wife’s throat and again asked for money. Luckily a neighbor saw him and the police were called. It all ended without harm but as the police were questioning the man, he said “I don’t know why he (me) wouldn’t compromise and give me some money.”

    [End of fictitious but perfectly analogous story]

    Obamacare was constitutionally passed, upheld by the SC and essentially ratified in the 2012 election. Further, it has nothing to do with the annual budget process as it has a dedicated revenue stream that does not require annual appropriations.

    There is a constitutional process for getting rid of laws you don’t like (hint: it does not involve holding the country hostage until a minority gets its way).

    Until the Tea Party follows that process, all their talk about being the Constitution Party is just that.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    The tea party needs to be reasonable or change obstructionist hostage tactics.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 9:08 a.m.

    Roland Kayser,
    Who said, "Do what I want or I'll wreck the economy"? Nice strawman though!

    And while we're on your strawman... has the economy been destroyed? Stock market indexes don't indicate that. What is your evidence that they destroyed the economy? Or is that just a fallacy you believe because it's in the persistent Democrat talking points?

    Our politicians need to learn to compromise and get along. But pulling out the ridiculous strawman arguments in an attempt to make one side look like the bad guy is not the way.

    How about politicians that insist they will not accept or even read anything the other house sends them? And promising that even IF the Senate passes it... the President will Veto it? That's not a strawman, that's something they actually said!

    You literally can't have a compromise or even a dialog when one side insists they won't even listen to anything the other side proposes. Both sides need to learn what it means to be a "Representative" and a "Statesman". Neither side gets it anymore. They only represent that brand (their party). They have forgotten the people.

  • MaxPower Eagle Mountain, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 8:40 a.m.

    The problem is over 90% of the seats in the house are uncontested, or "safe" thank to gerrymandering. Because of this, most representatives were applauded for shutting down the government, or will face no consequences with the electorate. To them the biggest threat isn't re-election, it's getting "primaried" So the Conservatives have to more conservative than any potential contender (no one wins a primary on "I'll be more moderate than our current guy") and Liberals have to be more liberal than any other potential contender.

    If we had an open primary we could get more moderate, problem solving oriented people elected. Or perhaps a system like that in California were the top two vote getters, regardless of party, go on to the general election. So in Utah there would be many elections with two "R's" running, but result would generally be the more moderate of the two winning and hopefully getting more work done and less posturing.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 8:29 a.m.

    Back when it was acceptable for legislators to socialise as adults, they were able to find that they have a lot in common and could get things done.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 7, 2013 8:11 a.m.

    "Do what I want or I'll wreck the economy" is hardly comparable to children bickering.