Gunman that killed 12 in Navy Yard rampage was hearing voices

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  • What in Tucket? Provo, UT
    Sept. 21, 2013 7:30 a.m.

    What responsibility do the people have who treated this man for mental illness. Could they not see that he might be dangerous? As for guns our homicide rate from guns is far lower than most countries that have gun control. Honduras has the highest murder rate 96 per 100,000 people. The U S has 4.2.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Sept. 19, 2013 8:29 a.m.

    To "Lew Scannon" changing the gun laws rather than fixing the mental health system is like giving somebody with a brain tumor an asprin. Yes the pain is reduced, but the problem is still there.

    Come back when you want to actually address the problem and not a symptom.

  • A Guy With A Brain Enid, OK
    Sept. 18, 2013 7:34 p.m.

    @ one old man - Ogden, UT - "How about this:
    Before you can shoot:

    Must be at least 18 to buy a long gun and 21 to buy a handgun.
    Can’t buy a gun for anyone other than yourself.
    Potential buyer can’t be under indictment for a felony, convicted of a felony, or be a fugitive from justice.
    Can’t be an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic or other controlled substance."

    I like your recommendations but you better go talk to the people in Colorado about that last one.

    Don't blame me. I wasn't one of the fools who voted to make marijuana legal in Colorado.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 6:36 p.m.

    Re: "It will be much easier to restrict firearms than to "fix" the mental health system. And far less expensive."

    And, of course, absolutely ineffectual, clearly illegal, and directed, not at saving lives -- which no such restriction can EVER do -- but at controlling liberals' critics and opponents.

    Feckless liberal social engineers are forever telling us how easy it would be to impose their their latest freedom-sapping scam. Funny how they never mention how laughably, monumentally ineffective liberal social engineering scams ALWAYS are.

    Maybe they just forgot.

    If so, a good reminder would be to look at all the damage their deranged "Great Society" welfare scams have done to poor and minority families and children.

  • Lew Scannon Provo, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 4:33 p.m.

    "Fix the mental health commitment system."

    You're serious? I happen to know a fair bit about mental illness and its vagaries. It is almost impossible to know when someone will tip off the edge. If we were to lock up people who may sometime become dangerous, we would have to lock up about 20 percent of the population. It will be much easier to restrict firearms than to "fix" the mental health system. And far less expensive.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 12:11 p.m.

    @LDS liberal

    I see lots of bold claims but very few facts in your post. First I would like to see some evidance showing that these people were indeed taking SSRI's and that there was a causal link between a medication reaction and their behaviors. secondly 10% of the population not 30% of the population take SSRI's 2 to 3% of that 10% not the general population have a severe reaction. Are there concerns with these medications and the way they are sometimes used? Yes of course but your claims are far more reckless and dangerous then these drugs could ever be.

  • happy2bhere clearfield, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 11:36 a.m.

    In America today, with hundreds of millions of guns already out there, plus open borders for anything to come into the country, I believe it is impossible to ever control guns. That being said, the best way to stop these mass murderers is to kill them quickly when they start. Had more people been armed themselves, he might have been stopped before all those deaths and injuries happened. He was finally killed anyway, it was just too late for some 12 people. Imagine if one of his early victoms had been able to shoot him when it began instead of being a sitting duck. Not a perfect solution to these gun shooting criminals, but does anyone really think controlling guns will stop this kind of stuff? How could you legally get guns out of American society? If you have an idea then let's hear it. And I mean specific legal changes, not philosophy.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 11:24 a.m.

    To "Lew Scannon" don't you find it ironic that the shooter with all of his issues was able to get guns in a state with very restrictive gun laws, then went into a "Gun free zone" and was met without resistance. I am not pleased with what he did, but this should be a wakeup call to liberals that massive restrictions and "gun free zones" don't work.

    We already have laws that close the loopholes. Per Utah law, you cannot sell a gun to a person that is restricted from gun ownership. Utah code 76-10-503 paragraph 8a states " A person may not sell, transfer, or otherwise dispose of any firearm or dangerous weapon to any person, knowing that the recipient is a person described in Subsection (1)(a) or (b)."

    The problem isn't having enough laws, but enforcing the laws that we do have.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 11:01 a.m.

    Re: ". . . why are [conservatives] so against reasonable restrictions?"

    Because there are no reasonable restrictions.

    EVERY gun-control measure liberal Second Amendment deniers have proposed would deny constitutional rights to many who should not be denied their rights. And they all focus on controlling and significantly burdening the wrong people -- innocent citizens. Rather than the bad guys.

    And EVERY liberal gun-control measure is an admitted first step toward their ultimate goal -- disarming responsible, law-abiding Americans they believe may constitute an impediment to forcing their agenda on America.

    They're not really interested in saving lives. If they were, they'd be looking for real solutions to violence in Chicago or LA, where all their useless "reasonable restrictions" are already in effect.

    Why don't liberals seek "reasonable restrictions" on Fourth or Fifth Amendment rights? How about allowing police to use a limited number of camera robots or drones without warrants? How about letting them use small rubber hoses in interrogations?

    "Reasonable restrictions" is merely liberal newspeak for unconstitutional liberal control over people they don't like or disagree with.

  • DN Subscriber 2 SLC, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 10:59 a.m.

    @ Lew Scannon

    Conservatives and the NRA are NOT happy that this guy could legally buy a gun.

    They are very unhappy that someone violated numerous other laws and killed people.
    They are very unhappy that someone so obviously mentally ill was not declared mentally defective or involuntarily committed.
    They are very unhappy that a person with a long series of misconduct in the military was given an honorable discharge.
    They are very unhappy that someone with two prior incidents of violent gun crimes was not prosecuted for either one, and thus had no criminal record which would have prevented purchase of a gun.
    They are very concerned about the high correlation and likely causation between psychotropic medications and mass murders.

    However, conservatives and the NRA are very wary that arbitrary and capricious restrictions and definitions could be manipulated to ban guns from people for political reasons, or as a massive disarmament scheme by some thuggish administration. Therefore, the insistence on due process is mandatory.

    Didn't vote for Obama?- must be a nut case take away their guns... not too farfetched under this administration. Yet they are arming terrorists in Syria. Go figure.

    Fix the mental health commitment system.

  • Lew Scannon Provo, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 10:30 a.m.

    The way I see it, the conservatives and the NRA must be pleased that the shooter was able to so easily and legally purchase the gun he used to kill 12 innocent people. Isn't this what their outcry against any restrictions on gun purchases was all about? Isn't this exactly what they were hoping for? If not, then why are they so against reasonable restrictions? To hear them complain, you'd think that closing the loopholes in the system, like purchases at gun shows, and creating a national gun database are one short step from Nazi Germany. Well, this is where paranoia will get us. How many more of these senseless massacres must we witness before we finally realize that we are not living in 1787?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 10:27 a.m.

    To "one old man" we already have those rules, except being dishonorably discharged. There are many reasons why a person could be dishonorably discharged, so that makes no sense.

    The NRA doesn't have any problems with the ideas that you present.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 10:11 a.m.

    How about this:
    Before you can shoot:

    Must be at least 18 to buy a long gun and 21 to buy a handgun.
    Can’t buy a gun for anyone other than yourself.
    Potential buyer can’t be under indictment for a felony, convicted of a felony, or be a fugitive from justice.
    Can’t be an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic or other controlled substance.
    Gun seeker is ineligible if he or she has been committed to a mental health institution or declared mentally defective by a court.
    Can’t buy a gun if dishonorably discharged.
    Can’t have a history of domestic violence or been subject to a court order for harassing, stalking or threatening someone.
    Application will be rejected if the person has renounced U.S. citizenship; must be living in the U.S. legally.
    Must have a valid I.D.

    Or would the NRA consider this too much of a restriction of Second Amendment "rights" to go out and kill people?

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 10:06 a.m.

    I don't know, procura. As more facts become available, there might be a lot of hay to be harvested. Here's a starter from the LA Times:

    "He was carrying with him the shotgun, which he had recently LEGALLY PURCHASED from a gun store in a Virginia suburb.

    Officials have said the shotgun was purchased from Sharp Shooters in Lorton, Va. The owner of the store refused to comment and directed questions to his attorney. "

    How about these headlines from the New York Daily News"

    "Washington Navy Yard shooting: Shooter allowed to buy gun despite mental issues, Navy misconduct
    Despite hearing voices, shooting out someone’s tires in a 9/11-induced rage and being cited for misconduct eight times while he was a Navy reservist, Aaron Alexis passed a federal background check with flying colors and was able to buy the gun he used in Monday’s massacre."

    This sounds like a strong and excellent case in favor of SENSIBLE laws to provide a national database of people with mental health and violent misdemeanors. His crimes did not rise to the level of felonies and thus he had those flying colors.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 9:51 a.m.

    Re: "Re: Gunman . . . was hearing voices"

    Seems like one of them was Joe Biden's.

    He took the Vice-President's advice to "buy a shotgun, buy a shotgun." NOT an AR-15 with a normal, 30-round magazine, as several media outlets gleefully, but erroneously reported. Perhaps intentionally.

    As Harry Reid admitted yesterday, it's going to be hard for Second Amendment deniers to make much hay out of this tragedy.

    But they're trying, anyway.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 9:11 a.m.

    I have yet to hear whether or not this guy's gun was legally purchased and possessed.

    A report on TV news last night seemed to indicate that even though he had a long and troubled history, none of it had been reported to any kind of data base. Because of that that he had been able to legally purchase the shotgun he used in Virginia just a few days earlier.

    We need to know -- is that report correct or not.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 18, 2013 8:29 a.m.

    Trolley Square shooter.
    Jordan River Temple shooter.
    LDS Genealogy Library Shooter.
    Mark [Lori] Hacking shooter.
    David Ragsdale LDS church parking lot shooting.
    Josh Powell.

    I could on and on and on.
    All local - all taking SSRI - all murders.

    But then there are the silent victims.
    The suicides.
    I personally know 4 people --
    former Elder's Quorum President, classmate, worker, and a cousin --
    all very good, "normal", people, feeling a little "down",
    given these meds, and within 2-4 months dead from suicide.
    And, not just the typical - turning the car on in the garage, drug overdose, drowning or hanging...
    ALL of them very violent, Very bloody, and maximizing shock value. [guns]
    Going out in a blaze of glory so to speak.
    Even for those who just give up and want to end it all.
    Completely out of character.

    BUT --
    It IS common -- 2-3% of the population will have this serious side effect.
    And when you have 30% of the population taking them, you will see things like this happen.

    Ever wonder why suicide rates in Utah is so high?
    Perhaps because SSRI medication use is also so high.

    I don't blame the guns, I blame the meds.

  • bw00ds Tucson, AZ
    Sept. 18, 2013 12:59 a.m.

    And if these drugs skew reality, then obviously, violent video games will have a dramatic effect on the user.

    Even if psychotropic drugs had no part in this, these mass killings highlight the weaknesses of the system:

    1. A gun-free zone, so therefore
    2. Unarmed victims.

    Killers, if you notice, only go where they know there will be no one to shoot back at them.

  • bw00ds Tucson, AZ
    Sept. 18, 2013 12:53 a.m.

    I will side with LDS Liberal's points. I understand what you are trying to say, spring street, and I agree with them to a point. However, the evidence that is ignored and out there if you do your research is that psychotropic drugs have been the common factor in *every* mass killings and attacks in the news lately. LDS Liberal's list above is correct.

    The prescription of psychiatric drugs is an epidemic. Think about it—this is a “science” where they declare a “chemical imbalance” for certain behaviors and yet there is no pathology performed: lab tests, blood tests, x-rays, etc. Yet they prescribe these drugs for what medical condition? And when those drugs do not work, they either blame it on the patient or prescribe more drugs. And psychiatry has such a strong hold on education and behaviors of children that psychotropic drugs in children as young as kindergarten age is rampant.

    Research and comments by psychologists, university researchers, and current and former employees of pharmaceutical corporations show that these drugs do not work and increase suicidal/homicidal and violent tendencies multiple fold. They also skew reality.

    I agree with LDS Liberal.

  • Mainly Me Werribee, 00
    Sept. 18, 2013 12:46 a.m.

    Anybody ever hear of possession by unclean spirits?

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 3:07 p.m.

    Thank you redshirt. I know it may not sound like it but I do understand your concerns LDS Liberals concerns and share those concern with the risk associated with the medications and that they need to be closely monitored by a professional but these types of side effects are very rare and there is no indication that he was taking any medications that might cause these types of symptoms or that he was taking medications at all. Again I am not a big fan of medications but there are times when are appropriate.

  • CB Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 2:10 p.m.

    Another 'gun-free' Zone....thanks to Pres. Clinton who ban firearms from military bases.
    How many more will have to die before this nonsense ends?

  • dale richards Green River, Utah
    Sept. 17, 2013 12:19 p.m.

    Here we go again the medical profession let us down.
    This guy should have been put on list the the bureau
    has for restricting gun ownership. Now this administration
    Will use this as a reason for more gun control.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 12:13 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" wow, how many degrees do you have. Apparently you know about psychology than people that are trained in it. Do you think that "spring street" should help you do your engineering?

    Did you also see where Adam Lanza and Alexis both loved playing violent video games. Why not look into that too. Maybe the problem is the violence and realism in video games.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 11:53 a.m.

    @LDS Liberal

    I am aware of the side effects my point was and still remains that you have zero proof that this had anything to do with the side effects of a medication and all the symptoms described are also associated with these disorders not just medications. My concern is your alarmist comment could actual lead to further harm if someone became spooked because of your comment and stopped taking their medications without talking to their doctor, such an event could have catastrophic affects on their health and possible their safety.

  • azreader1 tucson, AZ
    Sept. 17, 2013 11:46 a.m.

    So, LDS Liberal, what are your suggested remedies for treating those with severe depression as you seem to disfavor anti-depressants.

  • JDL Magna, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 11:12 a.m.

    Enter CIA and MK Ultra

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    @spring street

    Then you should already know that PTSD is commonly treated with SSRIs.

    Read the FDA black-box warning labels.
    As therapist, you should know the reason they are "required by law" to be there.

    Go ahead -- look it up.
    Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold - Columbine High School.
    The Virginia Tech shooter - on an antidepressant.
    Kip Kinkel murdered his mother and stepmother then shot twenty-two classmates.
    James Holmes opened fire in a Colorado movie theater and killed twelve people and wounded fifty-eight.
    Adam Lanza Sandy Hook Elementary - 26 dead, treated with anti-depressants.

    The common denominator?:
    drugs AND an FDA required black box warning label warning as much.

    You're a Doctor - you figure it out.

  • spring street SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 9:20 a.m.

    @LDS Liberal

    gee were do you get that anti depressants had anything to do with it? These are also common symptoms of several mental health deceases including PTSD, dissociative disorders and schizophrenia. As a therapist I am not a big fan of medications but your comment is willfully ill responsible.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 17, 2013 8:40 a.m.

    The Associated Press that Alexis had been suffering a host of serious mental issues, including paranoia and a sleep disorder. He also had been hearing voices in his head, the officials said.


    Gee, imagine that.
    No surprise at all.
    These are all side-effects to popular anti-depressant medications.