One way to win the immigration debate

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  • Miss Piggie Pheonix, AZ
    Sept. 12, 2013 1:58 p.m.

    "Much of the troubles in America stems from diversity, especially racial and ethnic diversity."

    Immigrants coming to America need to remind themselves they are not Hispanic, they are African, they are not European, they are not Saudi, they are not Russian, they are not Asian, etc. When they come to America they drop former designations whatever it is and become Americans. Does that happen? No. They call themselves African-Americans (descendants of slaves from Africa), Hispanics, Asians, etc. And they refer to 'Hispanic Community,' 'African-American Community,' etc. That won't do. That is a major reason we have racial defugalties... and always will.

    You don't see racial problems in Finland, Sweden, Norway. You have to ask yourself why.

  • Alfred Pheonix, AZ
    Sept. 11, 2013 11:57 p.m.

    "Has and country welcomed diversity, and had it work? It seems most of the problems in the world today come from putting diverse people together, and expecting it to work."

    Excellent comment, Ricard. Diversity is often lauded as what makes America great. The exact opposite is true. Much of the troubles in America stems from diversity, especially racial and ethnic diversity.

  • RichardB Murray, UT
    Sept. 11, 2013 9:34 p.m.

    Is this about people here illegally, or about legal immigration? It's amazing how many try to make an issue using legal immigration, when the discussion is really about illegal.

    Has and country welcomed diversity, and had it work? It seems most of the problems in the world today come from putting diverse people together, and expecting it to work.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 11, 2013 3:03 p.m.

    e pluribus pluribus

    DN moderator, I suspect from prior posts that you will not understand this and will therefore block it. It is latin, meaning "out of many, many". Our currency says "e pluribus unum", which means "out of many, one". but since were so highly prize diversity and require no assimilation or any type of unity of culture, we are losing our unity. Thus I would ask that you NOT block "e pluribus pluribus"

    please forgive me if I have not properly conjugated the latin

  • wrz Pheonix, AZ
    Sept. 10, 2013 9:52 p.m.

    "If we continue to be a nation that welcomes immigrants but does not ask them to take our norms, customs and history as their own, then we are left with no choice but to have a government define for us who we are as a people."

    In the first place, with Hispanics flooding into this country by unprecedented millions each year, the 'customs and history' will soon be what the Hispanics will bring... including the language and flag.

    Secondly, the government does not define who we are because... well, because it's not the government's job.

  • Miss Piggie Pheonix, AZ
    Sept. 10, 2013 9:44 p.m.

    @Twin Lights:
    "America is constantly changing. Each generation and immigrant wave brings a new thought (or resurrects old ones) on what it means to be American."

    Yes, but I don't cotton the task of learning Spanish that is staring many Americans in the face from all the millions of Hispanics flooding into this country. Don't laugh. Practically 20 to 30 percent of the TV channels are now in Spanish. I am paying for the channels but can't understand a word that is being said.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 5:12 p.m.

    Re: "All the theories [conservatives] have espoused have been failures . . . ."


    You mean like when Carter's misery-indexed economy took off under Reagan, and developed enough momentum to survive Daddy Bush, Clinton, and most of W's administration -- until liberal congressional vote-buying scams brought it all crashing down about our shoulders?

    And, blaming conservatives for wholly-liberal-owned Obamacare? Even before it has had its full opportunity to destroy American health care and the American economy?


    Well, I guess blaming Bush did work pretty well for them for awhile but, talk about a one-trick pony!

    As mentioned above, it's the existential mendacity of liberalism, moreso even than its venal, sophomoric, and thoroughly discredited policies, that drives real people away from liberalism.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 1:57 p.m.


    On the contrary, it has been the conservatives of late who have failed to learn lessons from the past, particularly in the area of economics. All the theories they have espoused have been failures, but they keep coming up with different ways to describe the same tired old supply-side, trickle-down ideas. And it was the progressives who looked to the past (adopting admittedly inferior conservative ideas) to come up with a health-care plan that just might appeal to conservatives. Alas, the Republicans couldn't see past their hatred of Obama to accept their own ideas. Too bad the progressives didn't just go ahead and adopt a health-care model more in line with those that are succeeding in other countries.

  • Bob A. Bohey Marlborough, MA
    Sept. 10, 2013 1:40 p.m.

    Resolving a problem is more important than winning a debate IMVHO.

  • Eric Samuelsen Provo, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 1:29 p.m.

    This guy lost the moral high ground two sentences in.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    Illegal immigrants are criminals and should be treated as criminals.

    There is nothing malicious about that. Society has laws and those laws need to be enforced.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 12:48 p.m.

    This reminds me of a contradiction that's always puzzled me.

    Many people who call themselves "Liberals" (though I think they've forgotten what that means) continually complain about more people coming to Utah (because we don't have enough water, our air is getting dirty, we have too many people)... and yet they LOVE and encourage illegal immigrants to come to Utah?

    They complain that Mormons have too many babies... but they LOVE when more illegal aliens come to Utah (both of which increase our population).

    They want abortion, and population control, they push global warming rhetoric and radial environmentalism on the pretense that there's too many people... but they want MORE illegal immigrants to come, and will defend illegal immigration to the end.

    It just seems weird to me.

    The other contradiction I always have a hard time with is... they want to get rid of the wealthy and promote being poor. As if Utah and the world would be a BETTER place if there were more poor people and less wealthy people. I think it's obvious we need at least a few wealthy people in America if we want to have jobs, homes, families, etc.

  • There You Go Again Saint George, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 12:11 p.m.

    "...Grandstanding has been substituted for statesmanship, and talking points have taken the place of principle...".

    Yet, texas keeps electing the ted cruz's and louie gohmert's, of the world to sell their brand of "...sincere reflection...".

    No thanks.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 10:33 a.m.

    Re: "Progressivism, by definition, looks to the future and seeks positive change to solve problems."

    Since they look only to the future, "progressives" consistently fail to learn lessons of the past, dooming themselves to perpetual, foolish failure. The mantra becomes, "change, for change's sake." They're always seeking positive change, never finding it.

    This characteristic fecklessness requires them to "sell-out" principles, buying political influence on the open market from the venal and callow.

    "Progressives" disingenuously justify this deranged approach by labeling any change they initiate as progress, though actual effects are anything but. And, that's the saddest of liberal casualties -- truth. Orwell, notwithstanding his own leftist leanings [he fought with the commies in Spain], correctly recognized the concept, dubbing it newspeak.

    That deliberate, calculated dishonesty, that rebellion against truth that refuses to recognize and own their numerous, dismal failures -- more than any other trait -- defines "progressives."

    It's what led me and many, many others to abandon liberalism.

    And re-embrace the truth.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    Very strange indeed to hear a self-described conservative rail against "radical individualism". Ayn Rand's entire libertarian philosophy seems to be centered around radical individualism, and her thoughts seem to have pervaded the entire conservative movement and Republican party.

  • Roger Terry Happy Valley, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 7:56 a.m.

    If this is what passes for scholarship in the great state of Texas, they have serious cause for worry. This defense of conservatism is roughly equivalent to the defense exhibited by the University of Texas football team last Saturday.

    If a core conservative value is "a belief in an enduring moral order that is revealed to us through custom, convention and continuity," then conservatives would have been in favor of slavery, environmental devastation, and a health-care system based on blood-letting and calomel.

    Conservatism as a philosophy is, by definition, backward looking. It looks to the past as the ideal and seeks to preserve it. Progressivism, by definition, looks to the future and seeks positive change to solve problems.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Sept. 10, 2013 6:23 a.m.

    "Obedience to an enduring moral order, adherence to custom, convention, and continuity, and belief in things established through immemorial usage is required for liberty and self government."

    How then could the founders have split with England? Or established the Bill of Rights?

    America is constantly changing. Each generation and immigrant wave brings a new thought (or resurrects old ones) on what it means to be American.

    Don't get me wrong, I think there are good arguments for continuity. And I firmly believe that we benefit from a religious populace (wherein we look to something beyond ourselves). But I find the writer does not make a compelling case. Some great prose, but I just don't buy it.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Sept. 10, 2013 6:03 a.m.

    Intentions and purpose are lost when it's no longer a privilege.