Class warfare ideology

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  • Kora Cedar Hills, UT
    Aug. 19, 2013 8:25 p.m.

    Old switcheroo:
    It is amazing how you think of all these drugs as benign. I am sorry for the loss of your wife, but that does not qualify you to practice medicine. If you believe you can do your own appendectomy or open heart surgery, or even determine if you need one of those, I wish you the best of luck on that.

    I don't feel I am entitled to a specific income, but the government has no right to dictate how much I can earn, and you do not have the right to say what I deserve to make. That is the job of the Free Market, which should be free of government intrusion. The idea that I should feel so indebted to our government for the opportunity to be a doctor that I should just accept what they deem fair is anti-American.
    You obviously have no idea the true costs of government imposed regulations on small practices. It is killing these guys.

    It is true that who you know does play a part, but my husband gets unsolicited job offers everyday from all over the USA, with no connections to any of them.

  • DHuber Palmyra, NY
    Aug. 19, 2013 5:27 p.m.

    Rich or poor, privileged or underprivileged, advantaged or disadvantaged, it all means the same. You get ahead by your contacts in life not by sending in 1000 resumes to open positions. Take the average graduate of a state university, transplant them 2000 miles from home and have them start again no friends or contacts. It will take 15 years possibly to get to the same position as a young person, just graduated, with a multitude of lifetime family contacts in good positions to even think about being even. Its all about who you know and how highly placed in the job mark they are that gets you anything. Those that say hardwork will get you anywhere are kidding themselves. There are plenty of hard working people that labor their whole lives and stay stuck in the lower middle class.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 19, 2013 5:19 p.m.

    The evil of marxism and hence socialism and communism is that looks at people as groups and not individuals.

    when you can perpetrate all sorts evil and oppression on those groups,

    as we see now and in the past against the rich, the gop, the conservative, the religious, the wrong race or ethnicity, the wrong political party

    and in the past the progressive left has put Indians on reservations, enslaved others, intern Japanese and germans,

    created gulags, work camps, reeducation camps, reservations, internment camps,

    committed mass murder, genocides,

    all you have to do is ascribe negative qualities and attributes, and even blame them for all problems to a group, like the jews, the czars, the nobles, the rich, the bankers, the gop, the Christians,

    When you look people as individuals, as a brother or sister you can not commit atrocities against them, pick their pockets, take their property, tale their life.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 19, 2013 5:01 p.m.

    @LDS Liberal

    Your basic assumptions are wrong.

    Everything the state does is NOT socialism.

    If the state (the people) paid for the entire college education you might have an argument.

    But the state (the people) do not, students generally pay unless they apply for assistance.

    But more important question is How much do want the state (the people) to do for you, and there by having control over you? And how much are you responsible for yourself?

    bearing in mind here when we say the "state" we mean "the people".

    So everything you ask for must be picked out the pockets of the people, including yourself.

    And is it good that other's people's pockets are picked for your personal benefit?

    Can we progress if we are constantly dependent on others?

    And is it your place to judge others? Bearing in mind you WILL judged by the same measure.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Aug. 19, 2013 1:47 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" you realize that the "Moneychangers" were located in a holy place. The moneychangers had turned the temple into a shopping mall. Imagine going to the temple and paying $20 to rent clothing, or paying $15 for a meal in the cafeteria. Better yet, imagine paying $10 to park in the temple parking lot. The problem wasn't as much what they were doing, but where. The selling of animals and exchanging gold for temple currency was a necessity and had to be done, it just shouldn't have been done in the Temple.

    To those of you who think government is the answer to poverty, you should think again. The Big Government advocate, Bono, has made a recent revelation to the world regarding what he has seen as the biggest anti-poverty tool. Capitalism. See "Bono's 'Humbling' Realizations About Aid, Capitalism And Nerds" in Forbes.

  • the old switcharoo mesa, AZ
    Aug. 19, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    The fact are facts Kora, Dr's play the odds with our lives all the time that flu symptoms are actually the flu. And I would be happy to treat myself if I could access the drugs.

    And a lot of people will tell you they have been misdiagnosed multiple times by different doctors and it's up to them to gather their own information and find a Dr that will actually LISTEN.

    My wife died from a misdiagnosis and I sat through years of testimony about how little Dr's claim they can really know. Everything gets all grey when the mess up. They get all humble when they are under the gun don't they? 24 year old women just don't have heart problems you see...

    I don't have problems with all Dr's. Just the arrogant ones that act like they know everything and think they deserve the money they make from the corrupt and morally bankrupt system of healthcare we have in the US.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Aug. 19, 2013 4:38 a.m.

    @KVC...."FYI, if you were not willing or able to obtain my level of education, and go through what I did, you have no say in what I can make.:

    Are you kidding me? You really think because you have x-number of years of education, you are entitled to a certain amount of income? What in the heck? I hate to break it to you homey, but you are barking up the wrong tree there.

    And yes, the government does have the right to tell you how you can practice medicine. It has the right to require you are licensed. It has the right to require you are insured. It has the rights to protect people from those who don't think they should have to live by rules of society.

    Government is not driving small family doctors out of business. In fact, most state governments are subsidizing the small practice doctors in places where large corporate practices have left because the economies of scale don't support medical practices in those communities. Blame IHC and UHC if you must for your frustrations.

    You sound rather young, brach, and pretty impressed with yourself.

  • Kora Cedar Hills, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 9:27 p.m.

    Mark- How did the USA provide security and safety for so many years with a very low or no income tax for over 100 years? The overwhelming majority of our taxes do not go to security. And if we made Western Europe and Canada provide for their own security, we would not require as large a military as we have.
    As for Medicaid/Medicare, most doctors don't want to take it, and many are stopping their acceptance of it due to low reimbursement and bureaucratic hassles. Look at why physicians are going into concierge practice, or retiring early. Who is going to provide the care? Likely foreign graduates.

    Switcheroo, blue devil, and pragmatist:
    There is a big difference between giving to God, the Church and the poor and giving to government. We will give the Lord all that he asks. Christ never preached sending money to Rome. Why do LDS leaders not advocate for bigger government?

    Medicare pays a surgeon less than $3,500 to do the most expensive heart valve replacement surgery, and that includes all follow up care after the procedure. A fraction of what Kyle Whitingham gets paid for each football practice he leads.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 9:25 p.m.

    I'm watching 60 Minutes segment on "Robyn_Hood" group (the 1% of the 1%). The story is about their donations to schools and students, to break the cycle of poverty. It's not true that people with money don't do anything to help others. Most of our JOBS exist because of these people (not the government).

    Some observations 60_Minutes made I tend to agree with...

    "A spreadsheet is a terrible way to judge a man"... Referring to Class_Warfare people who judge you to be "good" or "Evil" based on a spreadsheet, or a number, if that number indicates you have had more financial success than the average middle-class person.

    Fact is... there are some great people in the 1% (groups like the Robyn_Hood group are proof of that). But there are also a lot of jerks in the 1%. But there are a lot of jerks in the middle-class too, and there are many great people in the middle-class. And the same can be said about the poor.

    Fact is... A number (meaning your income or your net-wroth) says nothing about how good a person you are.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 9:16 p.m.

    @the truth
    Holladay, UT

    @LDS Liberal

    He didn't take "advantage of it", he was forced by the "communist" system to do it.

    Don't like being forced to do something then forced to like it or you are a hypocrite?
    5:45 p.m. Aug. 18, 2013

    [He could have Chosen to go to a "private" (non-State School) University. The fact is he Freely Chose to attend a State run, State funded, State School. There-in lies the hypocrisy.]


    Sahuarita, az

    I am sorry for everyone who believes our country is better off because of Big Government involvement in everything.

    Medicare, like every other government program....

    [So, you have another choice to make.
    You can either accept evil Medicare "sin" money from the Government from your patients, or put your money where your mouth is and don't. The choice still is yours to make. No one is "forcing" you to do anything.]

  • Kora Cedar Hills, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 8:42 p.m.

    If diagnosing illnesses and diseases is so easy, do it for yourself and family and don't go to a doctor. Treat yourself. A virus requires no prescribed treatment. My husband saw a woman a few weeks back that was fatigued and thought she was still suffering from a bronchitis type illness. He checked bloodwork and she was diagnosed with Acute Leukemia. Good luck figuring that out on your own. And he catches the mistakes of NPs and PAs regularly.

    80% of practicing doctors are not members of the AMA. If you did research, you would know that.

    Family doctors are not these wealthy doctors you believe them to be. We have a minivan with 135,000 miles and live in a very average neighborhood while paying over $1,000/month for the next 30-years in student loan debt.

    Most doctors don't want Medicare/Medicaid, but take it because they care about people. They actually lose money on most Medicaid patients as the low reimbursement often does not pay the overhead. If all he took was Medicare he would make a lot less than doctors in other countries.

  • the old switcharoo mesa, AZ
    Aug. 18, 2013 8:11 p.m.

    If your theory is correct, your advice to patients should be to go to Mexico when they are sick because the Dr's are less encumbered there and they will get better care.

    Doctors in the US are the highest paid in the entire WORLD! Ya, too bad the system just isn't working for you.

    And BTW yes, you do rely on laws to make the public go to you for remedies (if you really are a DR.) You want Medicare (government)to pay you more ?

    The AMA (doctors union) has made it clear that they do not support any competition from any other medical professionals that could equally handle the tasks of a primary care physician.

    It's not hard to make a guess that flu symptoms really are the flu and not something else. You of course, would realize that a Dr can't know if you have a bacterial infection or a viral infection without doing a culture. At least that's what they claim in court proceedings. "Come back if it gets worse", does not take a great deal of education.

  • KVC Sahuarita, az
    Aug. 18, 2013 6:44 p.m.

    I am sorry for everyone who believes our country is better off because of Big Government involvement in everything.

    Medicare, like every other government program, has cost exponentially more than projected by the "expert" actuaries stated at the time it was implemented, yet all the liberals on here think that ObamCare will be different. No it won't. And Harry Reid is finally admitting that ObamaCare is a path to a Government controlled single payer system.

    I would be a doctor today regardless of whether we had an encumbered government or not. But due to our government, I am restricted on how I can practice. It has become near impossible for a Family Physician like myself to open up a solo or couple doctor practice. That is why all the practices in Utah county are merging, or joining a large group. This is how our Government wants it. There is no evidence that EMRs improve outcomes, but it is being mandated by the government at high costs.

    FYI, if you were not willing or able to obtain my level of education, and go through what I did, you have no say in what I can make.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 6:35 p.m.

    Haha. Okay, KVC, have it your way.

    I wouldn't want to stand by your initial statement either if I were you. Let me remind you what it was: And truthfully, I am successful in spite of our government, and my success is in general limited by the government. So I can see why you would not want to stick by that but instead now say you just dislike big government.

    It's interesting though, you like your government subsidized loans, you like your government paid Medicare/ Medicaid, in fact you want to negotiate to get more of that government money, but you sure are against government. Even to the point of nit recognizing how important the security they provide for you is. In fact saying your success owes it only a "minimal amount."

    Okay, try to gain that type of success in a country that does not have security provided by a government.

    Oh well, like I said, a person doesn't have to be thoughtful to be a doctor.

    And "communist values"? Really? Haha. Funny. Like anything I've said is communist in nature. Even capitalists can recognize the advantage afforded by a secure and orderly country.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 5:45 p.m.

    @LDS Liberal

    He didn't take "advantage of it", he was forced by the "communist" system to do it.

    Don't like being forced to do something then forced to like it or you are a hypocrite?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 4:10 p.m.

    Sahuarita, az

    It is obvious that many of you, including Mark, hold Communistic values.


    Sure got a lot of audacity there KVC.
    You took advantage of those so-called "Communist" values.

    State run school.
    Paid for by State and Federal Funds.
    Loans paid for and subsidized by Federal grants.
    Tax detectable.

    Reminds me of that old mote and beam parable about hypocrites Jesus talked about.

  • the old switcharoo mesa, AZ
    Aug. 18, 2013 3:43 p.m.

    It's an age old problem KVC has. The Bible and BofM is full of counseling against it. He trusts in his own strength only and doesn't give credit to God or those that supported him including his COUNTRY. Fear of God and Patriotism are conservative qualities? Hardly. They resent the workers that make them rich and claim it was only their own hard work when they have never known hard labor.

    I'm inclined to believe KVC is not actually a Dr at all, but a conservative that listens to Glen Beck too often. Talking points regurgitated perfectly. See how I worked in a medical term?

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Aug. 18, 2013 3:14 p.m.

    I'm sorry, but after having posted just a few minutes ago I have to come back simply because KVC's posts are some of the most troubling I've ever seen on this thread. There's a lot of disagreement here but rarely such a level of self indulgence. 5 of my wife's and my kids have advanced degrees with jobs and salaries commensurate with their education. However, fortunately they also are grateful for their opportunities and see those opportunities as gifts from an American society. Nobody took their tests for them but many went ahead and sacrificed so they could have the opportunities they enjoyed.

    BTW KVC, read George Wills article in this same paper today lauding the national center for disease control as government at it's there's a true conservative.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Aug. 18, 2013 3:01 p.m.

    @KVC... You said "Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple only. Where does it say he threw them out of the markets not in the Temple?"

    He did though warn extensively against getting too attached to the things and platitudes of the world though...that even if you do everything else, if you still can't give up your material possessions... that you willl be frustrated in your progress.

    I will admit, I am more than attached to my stuff. If I am going to work, I am going to make as much money as I can... if I have to work. But I hope that I am able to give it all up.... if asked to... not sure yet.....Christ did say blessed are the poor. How many times did we hear in last conference how blessed the members of the church are in West Africa because they are not encumbered by possessions.

    I am not there yet.... but I acknowledge wealth and seeking for it can cause a lot of harm to the soul.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Aug. 18, 2013 2:45 p.m.

    KVC, Wow, let me say again wow. It's condescending that society has provided a public education system that you took advantage of or government regulates student loans so that they are affordable and available. No you would not have been able to be a doctor without those two programs alone.

    Patents sole purpose is for disclosure purposes. I'll be the drug companies who make billions on drugs before they are allowed to be produced as a generic would disagree with you.

    Medicare restricts your earning ability..are you kidding? Without medicare most of the elderly that are now treated for hips, knees, eyes, blood pressure etc. etc. would have been dead years previously because they couldn't have afforded $50,000 for a new hear valve. You may think you should be able to charge $100,000 for that procedure so that you can have a Porsche but it's all academic without Medicare.

  • KVC Sahuarita, az
    Aug. 18, 2013 2:31 p.m.

    It is obvious that many of you, including Mark, hold Communistic values. You so strongly believe that nothing is possible without the government intervening. I don't hate my government, I just believe it is vastly larger than it needs to be. The primary roles of the federal government involve safety and protection of the citizenry. It is not the role of the government to social engineer and control our daily lives. I may owe to some people, but not the government beyond a minimal amount.
    Why did I take federal subsidized loans? Because that is how the system is set up. We had lots of doctors going to medical school long before the Federal Student Loan program was established, and they could actually get good interest rates because they were a safe investment. That investment is less secure as the government has taken control of such a large part of the healthcare system through medicaid/Medicare.
    Now let's look at liberal hypocrisy. They will fight tooth and nail to ensure public employees have collective bargaining rights, but oppose allowing physicians to negotiate reimbursement rates with Medicaid/Medicare. It's take it or leave it for us.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 11:48 a.m.

    Yes, KVC, you are paying them back. But they were loans you took from the government, at lower rates then you would have ever found on the open market. So complaining about the government, saying you are successful in spite of the government, rings hollow.

    So you say the loans cost you 50 to 80k a year. But you didn't say how much you are making. Again, I have an idea, and again, you really shouldn't be complaining. And what do you want anyway? For the government that you despise to pay for you education?

    But you still seem to believe that you are successful in spite of government. But the same government that you denigrate is the government that provided you the security and safety to pursue your career in peace. How many doctors does Somalia or the Congo turn out?

    No, the government you run down is precisely the government that provided you with a safe enviromental to chase your dreams.

    I get so tired of unthoughtful people (unappreciative doctors or otherwise) running down this great country. This country IS its government.

  • KVC Sahuarita, az
    Aug. 18, 2013 10:01 a.m.

    @lds liberal:
    Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple only. Where does it say he threw them out of the markets not in the Temple?

    I took loans, but they were loans. all moneyI pay back. The in-state tuition at the U of U Medical School is $30,000/year. Out of State and private school tuition runs about $60,000. None of this includes room, board, health insurance, books, licensing exam fees, or any other costs of living. Add up the costs and it is $50-80,000/ year to be a Med student with the inability to work during school given a greater than 60 credit hour course load each year, double the average undergrad.

    It is highly condescending that you believe that my becoming a doctor would not be possible without Government regulations and interference. Drug patents are only necessary because government requires disclosure of how all meds are produced before allowing them to be sold. Government regulations actually increase the cost of training doctors. And Medicare/Medicaid have severely hindered our earning ability.

    I don't believe the big government society provided opportunities I would not have had otherwise.

  • micawber Centerville, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 9:01 a.m.


    I commend you on your hard work and on your success. I, too, worked my way through college and professional school

    Did you take Pell grants in college? Did you participate in a government work-study program? Were your student loans offered through a government program? Did you receive scholarship money from your college? I relied on each of those. I worked hard, but government and generous college donors made it a lot easier. Now, it's my turn to help others who are in the situation I was in.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Aug. 18, 2013 8:53 a.m.

    Actually guys, I totally respect your opinions on why you think the poor choose to be poor... and I shared many of those opinions in my younger days. I was born in Utah, studied their, did my undergraduate work at the Y and U, then move to California did my graduate work at Berkley, and lived the Silicon Valley dream. And I grew up Republican - a family heritage of Republicanism.

    Leter we moved to North Carolina to pursue closer family ties with my spouse. I had never lived in a town that being white was not the majority. I was frankly shocked at some of the latent attitudes held still. Growing up in a white world, I knew nothing different.

    Through some interesting experiences, ward calling to be ward missionary to Butner Federal Prison, work at a local rescue mission, and pro-bono work I have done at Duke and the VA... my opinions have shifted. I am no longer Republican, because I see some of the key tenants of Republicanism don't match my experiences. I am also not a Democrat, for the same reason.

    My experience is just different then yours.... not rhetoric.... but life experience.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 8:43 a.m.

    Society always needs honest workers and honest businessmen. It's tragic we don't have enough of either.

    I have come to the conclusion that there are no wholly "self-made" men, everyone is indebted to others for some of their success. Even the best and most honest also ultimately rely on God for blessings commensurate with their efforts and good desires, for good health, protection from predators, honest government and for an opportunity.

    The honest businessmen can supply opportunities for good workers and pay the very best he can. He can hire people residing here legally and petition the powers that be to reduce the corporate tax so we can compete with those less patriotic corporations who outsource their jobs to Asia.

    The honest worker has always supplied himself and his family with their means of support and, in addition, has helped to enrich his employer. Very few people actually produce anything and the majority of the population rely upon producers for true wealth, and upon honest employers. There is also a need for a few honest pen pushers.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Aug. 18, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    "I am sorry you believe that you are partially responsible for my success, but you are not. My own hard work, and my parents teaching me to work hard and be more successful than them is why I am successful." Now there's some arrogance. A society structured by government for your success and your own hard work to achieve success are not opposed to one another..they compliment one another. I'll bet you attended a public school somewhere, certainly your student loans have some connection to government regulations (interest rates), and the medical field itself is highly dependent on government sponsored research, lastly the medicines you talk about were all made financially viable by patents (government regulations). Good on you for working hard and achieving your goals, but your hard work does not negate the opportunities presented to you by a government shaped society.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 18, 2013 1:53 a.m.

    Well, KVC, one thing we can tell for sure from your post is that doctors, as you claim to be, don't have to be very thoughtful. Or good readers, it seems. The old switcheroo never said that he personally was responsible for your success (if that's what it is), what he said was, "People rarely get rich from their own work."

    But I'm interested in a couple of other claims you make, first of all you say that your student loans equal an average mortgage, which raises the questions: What is the average mortgage? And how much do you make after your residency? Now, I'm pretty sure I know the answer, at least in the ballpark, to both questions, and you really should not complain.

    But, more to the point, you make the claim that you are successful only because of your own hard work, and your parents support. In fact you say you are successful in spite of the government. Interesting. Who gave you the loans? The government? I imagine you didn't do it with higher intrest private loans.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 11:31 p.m.

    Jesus threw out the Money Changers,
    an open example of Class Warfare by God Himself.

    So, why do Conservatives [calling themselves Christians] defend MoneyChangers {WallStreet] to this very day?

  • KVC Sahuarita, az
    Aug. 17, 2013 10:46 p.m.

    @the old switcheroo:
    I am a young physician who grew up in a fairly poor family. I grew up in a mobile home, and my parents were able to contribute $0 to my college education. My student loan debt is equal to the average American mortgage.
    You are not required to go to me for remedies, but you probably should if you don't want to die. maybe you are referring to prescribing authority, but we have that and you don't because you need to have my level of education to properly distribute and monitor these medications. I am sorry you believe that you are partially responsible for my success, but you are not. My own hard work, and my parents teaching me to work hard and be more successful than them is why I am successful. And truthfully, I am successful in spite of our government, and my success is in general limited by the government. Without government control and intrusion into our healthcare system, I could be much more successful.

    This is the truth about liberals view of closing the income gap: it is not about lifting the poor up, but dragging the rich down.

  • Ryan Phillips herriman, ut
    Aug. 17, 2013 9:50 p.m.

    @ The Old Switcharoo: Authors get rich only when many people spend their hard earned money to buy their work--and usually after the work has been proofread, edited, published, distributed, marketed, etc. by many others. Same thing with artists. About the only scenario in which someone becomes rich without the involvement of others is someone who wins the lottery. But even in that case, they become rich because of foolish money gambled by thousands or millions of others. Doctors, lawyers and bankers don't just fall about of bed one day and land in a big pile of money with a degree. They work their tails off in school for decades, incurring mountains of personal debt, and provide services that we cannot provide for ourselves. yes, some children will grow up to "charge rent and make others do the work"as you say--because they don't settle and decide to make something of themselves. Thank goodness for that, so that the others who just sit back and complain can have a job and an income available to them, or receive government handouts, as paid for by their greedy neighbors who went out and earned money.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 8:57 p.m.

    "We used to sing, "And crown thy good with brotherhood From sea to shining sea"... Now we hear a chorus of "Hate thy neighbor (If he makes more than you). And "CURSE your neighbor" (if he achieves financial success)."

    Isn't it more like hate thy neighbor if his politics differ from yours? CURSE your neighbor if you think he is a liberal? ("Liberal" that word that so many on the right throw around as though it is the most despicable thing they can contemplate.

    No, 2bits, those on the right have far more then their share of bitterness and hate.

    And as far as class warfare, Richards and Mountainman, nope, nothing to see here! Just keep moving on.

    Pay no attention to the mass pillaging of the working class by the rich that is happening in this country. Pay no attention to the raiding of pension funds that has happened, ignore the the massive tax cuts the rich have received paid for on the backs of the working men and women, ignore the laws set up to benefit only the rich.

    Nope, nothing to see here. Move along.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Aug. 17, 2013 8:49 p.m.

    No, we don’t need to covet. Yes, it is getting harder to achieve economic prosperity if you were born into poverty. This is NOT saying it is impossible, but the evidence is clear - it is harder now than for my generation.

    We now have a smaller middle class and it was the middle class that provided the path from the bottom to the top. Calling for a stronger middle class is not a call for socialism. Nor will class warfare make it happen.

    America is not really a place. Few of us trace our roots to this soil for more than a few generations. For the Japanese, the Fins, and a host of other countries, the ground beneath them is their country. America is a political and economic construct. Liberty and economic mobility. If one half of that equation is on life support then the social contract that is America is significantly weakened.

    We need to look at the data folks. Forget trying to defend your political party or interest. Look at the data and let’s talk about what can (must) be done to again create a strong middle class.

    America needs that.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 5:48 p.m.

    I don't know what happened to this angry group of people. The Class-Warfare bunch is a bitter bunch. There's no making them happy (unless you exterminate the 1%).

    In America you can be born poor, a racial minority, raised by a single-mother, and still go to the best colleges in America (with public aid) and become President. I'd say you can still realize the American dream in America... regardless of your skin color or economic background.

    THIS segment of America has changed. We used to sing "God Bless America". When I read or sing the words, I can't help thinking "These words would make the success-hating class-warfare people's skin crawl".

    We USED to celebrate success. We used to sing, "America... May God thy gold refine, Till all success be nobleness, And evry gain divine"... Now they VILIFY success and curse every financial gain.

    We used to sing, "And crown thy good with brotherhood From sea to shining sea"... Now we hear a chorus of "Hate thy neighbor (If he makes more than you). And "CURSE your neighbor" (if he achieves financial success).

    Class-warfare rhetoric is bitterness (not the American dream).

  • the old switcharoo mesa, AZ
    Aug. 17, 2013 3:30 p.m.

    People rarely get rich from their own work. Authors, artists and a few other careers are the only people that can say they didn't require the labor of others and a position of power to become wealthy.

    Dr's depend on laws that require us to go to them for remedies. Lawyers the same. Bankers and investors rely on fiat currency to take profits from other's labor and natural resources generally nearly confiscated from poor countries.

    Perhaps that's why Jesus taught that it's hard for a rich man to enter heaven.

    Leave your children home alone long enough and you come home to find some of them charging the others rent and making them do all the work. God keeps having the same problem.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 3:02 p.m.

    Obama ran on a platform or resentment of the rich (which is ironic because he is one and he feeds off the rich)
    Obama's minions accuse anyone who disagrees with him as being racist
    Serial molester Bill Clinton led phony allegations of a war on worm
    Therefore Brian Harmon's original letter accusing Republicans of class warfare was incredibly hypocritical and offensive, exceeded only by the DN moderators blatant censorship based on content

    victimhood is the lefts basis for power and class warfare is their raison d'etre

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 2:18 p.m.

    I wish Mr. "marxist" would define "class warfare" here in 200 words or less. I bet that old Karl and Friederich would be almost without a clue as to what in the world people are talking about in these DN letters and posts. It would perhaps be "a mystery wrapped in an enigma" for Karl and Friederich.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Aug. 17, 2013 12:34 p.m.

    UtahBlueDevil. If you ever meet a conservative who tells you or anybody else, you can't succeed in life because of racism, poverty or any other kind of "victimhood", please let us all know! Conservatives have a very different message! I repeat, ask any successful conservative minority how they succeeded and they won't tell you about "victimhood" that message comes from liberal Democrats and you should ask yourself why!

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 10:47 a.m.

    UtahBlueDevil: You're great on rhetoric but low on facts and logic.

    - In America, obesity is a big problem among the poor as well as the rich. While there may be a few hungry people, that is far and away an exception rather than the rule.

    - Criminal activity is a choice. Are you suggesting that the poor are inherently law-breakers? In extreme cases where life is on the line, perhaps I could see that. But most crime, even among the poor, is committed by people who have roofs over their heads and food on the table.

    - High school diplomas and college degrees are earned, not given. As a kid from the wrong side of the tracks, I can witness that a college education is available to anybody who is willing to pay the price.

    Rhetoric is a fine thing but the risk you run is a hit to your credibility when you insist on making incredible claims that lack foundation is fact, logic, and reason but are emotional responses based on the most extreme cases you can dredge up.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Aug. 17, 2013 10:26 a.m.

    "its called coveting"..... you have to absolutely love it. It is covetous to want to have 3 meals a day. It is covetous to want to live in a neighborhood where your kids can play freely out doors without worry of criminal influences. It is covetous to want to have the means to send your kid to college - when the most anyone has achieved in the family is a high school diploma. It is covetous to want to be able to take a sick child to a normal doctor, rather than waiting for numerous hours in the emergency room waiting on an ER doctor to have time to see your child. Oh, the covetous nation we have.

    Mountainman... if the democrats need victims.... the republicans are more than willing providers... because all we hear from that crowd is how victimized they are.... their liberties stripped from their grasp, there wealth redistributed to those less worthy... Republicans right now are being the best victims they can.

    The author nails it when he talks of self fulfilling prophecies. What people believe they can achieve deeply impacts what they attempt to achieve. Good words.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 9:52 a.m.

    I have found that class warfare only goes one way.

    If a presidential candidate calls half of America (including vets, retirees, and students) deadbeats, it's leadership.

    If you ask someone making half a million to pay a little extra in taxes, it's class warfare.

    Sad, how low we have stooped in politics.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 9:24 a.m.

    While I agree we are responsible for ourselves, evidence does not support your contentions. Utah has the best record in the nation for upward mobility but less than 12% will find it. That means almost 90% will end up just like their parents or worse. Education has become so expensive it creates servitude to banks rather than a vehicle to success. To Mr Richards and Mountanman, what? I could care less about your riches or Mitt Romney's. I just care that you participate in funding society like the rest of us which is the antithesis of your philosophy. Most of us here that were not beneficiaries of the previous generation and have had success have left most behind and we have forgot whose backs we climbed to get there.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Aug. 17, 2013 9:08 a.m.

    "According to a Census Bureau report, U.S. household income inequality has grown by 18% since 1967, although this trend has slowed in recent years.

    According to Economics Prof. and Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, regulations, particularly those governing the financial sector are contributing to the disparities.

    “Financial regulations allow predatory lending and abusive credit-card practices that transfer money from the bottom to the top. So do bankruptcy laws that provide priority for derivatives,” he said.

    Stiglitz argues that Americans were increasingly being made to think that higher income inequality was a byproduct of faster growth, but he says that’s a false choice. The U.S. economy grew faster in the decades after the Second World War, when inequalities were lower, than it did after 1980, he said.

    Western countries with the healthiest economies, such as those in Scandinavia, have the highest degree of equality, Stiglitz noted.

    To prevent the worsening disparities, Stiglitz argues that the U.S. should stop cutting public education and other programs that enhance opportunities for the middle class and the poor."
    (CNBC 2012)

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Aug. 17, 2013 7:33 a.m.

    Its because Democrats need "victims" to survive and gain power. Victims of racism, victims of poverty, victims of the rich, all excuses keeping me from succeeding in life they tell us. That's why Democrats hate and demean any minority that succeeds on their own merits of hard work, self sacrifice and persistence. Race hustlers, poverty pimps and welfare hustlers are all Democrats. Ask Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson or any other successful conservative minority.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 17, 2013 7:31 a.m.

    It's called coveting. We were warned about coveting when Moses came down off the mountain. That law has not changed. Those who preach "envy" are telling us to covet. Those who preach transfer of wealth are teaching us to covet. Those who tell us that we are poor because others are rich are teaching us to covet.

    In America, we are free to pursue our dreams. Nobody owes us anything more than that. We are not assigned a station in life. We are not assigned an occupation. We are free to choose. Those who work hard, who perservere, who don't give up, who don't make excuses, almost always get exactly what they worked for.

    Lincoln showed us that a back-wood's boy could become the President. Bill Cosby showed us that he would not be assigned to be poor by the race-activists of his time.

    The choice is ours. We can covet or we can work earn our own way.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 17, 2013 12:12 a.m.

    Upward mobility is actually harder to achieve in the U.S. than almost anywhere else in the developed world. A child born poor has the best chance of getting into the middle class in the Scandinavian countries followed by the rest of continental Europe, Australia, and Canada. Only in the U.K or Italy does a poor child face worse prospects. Want the American Dream? Move to Finland.