For crying out loud... The Honey Bee and Beehive became the mascott
for the saints because Deseret meant honey bee and it symbolized industry and
providence to them when they were building from scratch... again! Furthermore,
the territory was originally going to be called the State of Deseret.Anyone who thinks that communism and United Order are remotely close to the
same thing needs to do some serious studying. One thing that you need to
consider is individual freedom under both.Brigham Young went to Salt
Lake because he was told to pursue the Rockies both by Joseph before he was
martyred and by revelation. Remember "This is the right place"
monument? He was following revelation regardless of the political situation at
the time. And yes it was to pursue freedom after being illegally kicked out to
their homes in Illinois.If you're going to talk doctrine keep
it within doctrine. Learn what outer darkness is based on scripture.
I find this beehive debate or whatever amusing. I wonder if Brigham Young etc.
knew all about the science of bees and what happens to drones etc. The Free
Mason symbol thing is also interesting but plausible I suppose. But I think we
are looking too deeply into this...
To "airnaut" you are wrong about bees. From the Keeping Bee website
"In the fall, after a honey collection, bees do not only stop feeding the
drones, but push them away from the open cells to the sealed honey. The drones
can not open it, so they have to starve. After that, the bees begin to kick them
out of the hive, and those that try to climb to notches, are killed and thrown
away." This is a normal behavior. Every fall the drones that do no work
other than impregnate the queen are kicked out.As for the Garden of
Eden, again, your understanding is not quite all together. God set up and
visited the Garden of Eden. God is not going to be visiting Outer Darkness.
Therefore even being in the Gardenof Eden and living there would not be as bad
as Outer Darkness because God does come and visit.
@RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UTTo "Open Minded Mormon"
Look at what happens in a bee hive during the late fall. The drones are kicked
out of the have and sent to their death.[That happens very VERY
rarely, and ONLY after they run out of honey.]Actually, there are
worse curses than to be left alone in the Garden of Eden. Try Outer Darkness,
that might be worse.[And pray tell, What do you think Outer Darkness
is RedShirt? Try being left alone for all Eternity - out of the
To "Open Minded Mormon" Look at what happens in a bee hive during the
late fall. The drones are kicked out of the have and sent to their death. That
is what happens in Communism and Socialism too. Why would you support a system
that will literally kill those that are not productive as a means to save
itself? That doesn't sound like a very Christlike system to admire.You say that "No man is an island", yet the scriptures and the
Prophets have told us to be self sufficient (become an island). See D&C
78:28 "And again, verily I say unto you, that every man who is obliged to
provide for his own family, let him provide, and he shall in nowise lose his
crown; and let him labor in the church" Apparently God things that you
should be an island too.Actually, there are worse curses than to be
left alone in the Garden of Eden. Try Outer Darkness, that might be worse.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahStudy your history. Spin
history all that you want,That free people - free from governmental
interference - used the beehive as a symbol of the faith that they had, that if
they did their part, God would make up the difference.3:31 p.m. July
8, 2013=========== Speaking of "spinning
history" Mike...The beehive was hardly a symbol of "faith".1. In Utah, and for Mormons, The Beehive is a symbol of
"Industry" not "faith", as you spun it.2. Most of the LDS
founders were Free Masons.3. The Beehive is the emblem of a FreeMason -
Master Mason.4. Deseret [from the Book of Mormon] means
"Honeybee".5. Brigham Young had the "Beehive" house built
in SLC for collecting tithes, [symbolic of honey].6. Bees are a collective
society [Socialist/Communist] by NATURE [God] and can not survive
"alone".7. Man is no different than bees. No man is an island. It
takes a village. 8. Adam would have been left a lone man in the Garden of
Eden - no curse could be worse than that, ask Cain.I could go on, by
I've hit 200 words...
Plenty of opinions from all sides, so I'll add mine.The
Constitution is inspired of God. We are taught this by our Prophets. We are to
sustain it, live within its laws, as well as live our religion.I've never experienced problems paying my taxes, paying tithing and
living within my means (I speak for our family of 6). The Government, whether
Federal, State or local, is not an impediment to our freedoms. Our government
is a protector of the Constitutional freedoms. Thus we worship as we please.And as far as being individualistic, the Church teaches us to be so.
And the Government honors that prinicple. All the recent talk of
Government intrusion and control and loss of citizen rights is hogwash in my
To "Pendergast" did you see how I did not discuss "how they were
instituted" I just discussed the end result.The United Order is
not collectivism, people retain personal property rights. People still have to
work. In communism you give up both of those.You may laugh now, but
when the collectivism that the government is pushing takes hold, you won't
be laughing so much.
Redshirt & confused...Regarding forms of collectivist societies,
I deliberatley put *other than how they instituted* to see what might happen.Lets just say I knew I'd get called out but wanted a good laugh.
Thanks for not disappointing me.
Cincinattus and Mike Richards:Somewhere between your interpretations
is the truth. Yes, the Mormons moved into Utah because it was Mexican
territory. It was also Mexican territory that the Mexicans had little interest
in settling compared to California, therefore, Brigham Young was hopeful that
the Mormons would be left alone. Still, Brigham Young was quite aware that the
Mexico and the US were at war. The Mormon Battalion was formed in 1847. He had
to figure that the US would win this war. What this meant for Utah was of
course unclear but he was a smart man and had to figure that the US would win
the war and the territory could change hands. Of course the Utah
War of 1856 was part of the government efforts to assert control over the
territory. However, there is an interesting side story that a southern
sympathizer in Buchanans' cabinet who sent thousands of troops to Utah on
the eve of the Civil War, not to quell or suppress the Mormon "threat"
but to have some of the best soldiers stationed thousands of miles away when the
Civil War broke out.
Mike Richards, you are woefully ignorant of history.Brigham Young
led the Mormon pioneers to the Salt Lake Valley after considering several other
places including Texas and California. They ended up in the valley because it
was remote, far away from any other major settlements at the time. Brigham knew
however, that though it was currently part of Mexico, it wouldn't be for
long. He was not unaware of both the Mexican-American War and the idea of
Manifest Destiny.The United States did not send an the army
"outside" of the United States to force them to live religious laws
prescribed by the government. They were sent due to unfounded rumors of
rebellion against the federal governemnt. By the time the U.S. army arrived in
Salt Lake in 1858 the Utah Territory had been a part of the U.S. for almost 10
years.Don't accuse others of spinning history when you yourself
cannot even get the basic facts right.
Roland Kayser"Liberals support individualism when it comes to
our personal lives,... Conservatives support individualism in our economic lives
while liberals reject it."So you (liberals) support individuals
choosing to do whatsoever they want, and the community pays the tab. Shall we share jail sentences too? Or just not have any laws and jails?
Unlimited personal freedom with no personal consequences.
@J,Study your history. The "Mormons" left the United
States. They traveled to "Mexican Territory" to get away from a
repressive government. Even then, the US Government sent an army to force
people living outside the United States to obey the religious laws prescribed by
the U.S. Government - laws that are illegal if the Constitution is to be
believed, unless the 1st Amendment has been repealed.Spin history
all that you want, but the facts show that the "saints" had had their
fill of a government that allowed their women to be raped, their men to be
killed and their land to be seized.They came here, to A place
outside the United States, to worship God without the "help" of the
government and without the government dictating to them what doctrines they
could have and which covenants they could perform.That free people -
free from governmental interference - used the beehive as a symbol of the faith
that they had, that if they did their part, God would make up the difference.
Pendergast.."Communism/United Order; other than how they are
instituted, its semantics."If you really believe this...then you
really don't understand either system...Communism takes away
the right of property ownership and that the POWER of the State decides what is
be to achieve their (As in State) goals, while the United Order, This preserved
in every man the right to private ownership and management of his property. At
his own option he could alienate it or keep and operate it and pass it on to his
heirs.so "NO" they are not pretty much the same....
To "Pendergast" actually they are quite different, more than just how
they are instituted. Under Communism you do not have private property, under
the United Order you do have private property. The United Order does not have
the state telling you what you can and cannot do with your land, and does not
tell farmers what crops to raise or give them a quota. Communism, the state
controls what you can do with your land, and gives the farmers mandates on what
and how much to produce.In essence the United Order is not communal
living, like communism is.Plus, looking at the number of people
killed under Communism should be enough to make you and others fear it.
to Redshirt1701 earlier today....LCommunism/United Order; other than
how they are instituted, its semantics. Furthering the humor, the
beehive on the state flag is an ideal representation for a commune, collectivist
To "Ultra Bob" another thing about the Beehive analogy. When hard times
come (winter) the communist bee colony kicks out the drones, where they starve
and die.The non-produces are put to death by those that are doing
the work and supporting the colony. That is what you get in communism. Those
that become a drain on the system will be systematically killed.To
"LDS Liberal" you may lean left politically, but if you actually
listened to the Prophets you would lean right. Remember there are quite a few
Prophetic warnings about modern day liberalism and its destruction of personal
liberty. The scriptures speak out against communism and socialism. See D&C
134:2 "We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws
are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free
exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of
life." Socialism and communism tak away the ability to control property and
sacrifice people it deems as a threat.
Does anyone actually believe that the people living under a theocratic
government had a better life than the people in Utah today? Did they live
longer, healthier, happier and just have the good life that was better than the
people of today?Did those people from the way-back really feel
different about the government telling them to be charitable when the government
was their religion?Many people feel that the government of today is
bad, evil and oppressive. The only redeeming point about it is that it is the
best government we have ever had.
"The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and
nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest
degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer
the least from luxurious habits which beget vice. Under such a system, carefully
maintained there could be no great aggregations of either real or personal
property in the hands of a few."--Brigham Young
Great letter Brian King.Excellent!It does appear that Zion has
become Babylon.The Gold diggers Brigham Young so worried, The
Latter-Day Nephites -- are ripening for destruction.BTW - I
lean left BECAUSE of the 'early' Latter-Day Saints. Not the
modern - capitalist, anything for a $, me-myself-and I, selfishness and pursuit
of Gain [Cain's Master Mahan eco 101] -- and "...I will do it;
wherefore give ME..." ~ aka, Lucifer... Christ taught Altruism
[selflessness and the better good of the Collectivness/Socialism of Society] and
it begins with the one/individual.
People today want to do almost nothing for the common good, and it manifests
itself as a public loathing of government and society. They've sure got a
sense of entitlement, though, and that comes through not just regarding
government programs but in almost everything they do, right down to most
children these days thinking the world is their trash bin and someone else can
clean it up. Government and society aren't nearly as bad as everyone moans
about, but they could be made better if more people took ownership and
re: M Richards.Gee, Mike. I am sorry (?) that Utah has digressed
from the benevolent theocracy this "state" started out as. Curious; Do you wish it were still that way? If so, Its not too late save us
all from ourselves and run for a seat in the state legislature.
Do we work for the "State"? The Pioneers came here to worship God and
to build His kingdom on earth. For them, church and state were the same thing.
Building roads, bridges, canals and all other infrastructure was building the
"kingdom", not building the State.The Federal Government
abolished the connection. The Federal and the State Government taxed us for
infrastructure. It became necessary to work as hard as we could to pay the
taxes levied on us, hoping that there would still be enough left after the
government took its share to feed and clothe our families.When
people are forced to do what they were willing to do without force, both the
State and the people suffer. Most of us willingly contribute many hours each
week serving others. We willingly fix meals and make contributions to help with
the burdens that others carry. But, nobody willingly lets the
"government" tell them to be charitable and then to have the
"government" force that "charity" on them. Compare
the good that true charitable organizations have done in times of disaster to
the harm and corruption that government has done under the guise of
The culture of bees is the ultimate expression of socialistic communism. There
is no private property, no rank, no privilege, just everyone doing their
appointed job for no other reward than survival. Not even the queen bee has
status above the good of the hive. The non-workers, drones, seem to exist only
to mate with some future queen and number many more than needed. Yet all in the
hive have what they need as individuals. I often wonder if the
beehive was the rallying symbol for the culture that Brigham Young espoused.
Beautiful letter Brian! Amen! And Amen! I imagine that a few people
will blast you today. The wicked find the truth to be hard.
Liberals support individualism when it comes to our personal lives, while
conservatives reject it. Conservatives support individualism in our economic
lives while liberals reject it. Perhaps both have a valid point, but perhaps the
best point for society lies somewhere in the middle.