The Beehive State

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  • The Solution Las Cruces, NM
    July 11, 2013 9:06 a.m.

    For crying out loud...

    The Honey Bee and Beehive became the mascott for the saints because Deseret meant honey bee and it symbolized industry and providence to them when they were building from scratch... again! Furthermore, the territory was originally going to be called the State of Deseret.

    Anyone who thinks that communism and United Order are remotely close to the same thing needs to do some serious studying. One thing that you need to consider is individual freedom under both.

    Brigham Young went to Salt Lake because he was told to pursue the Rockies both by Joseph before he was martyred and by revelation. Remember "This is the right place" monument? He was following revelation regardless of the political situation at the time. And yes it was to pursue freedom after being illegally kicked out to their homes in Illinois.

    If you're going to talk doctrine keep it within doctrine. Learn what outer darkness is based on scripture.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    July 10, 2013 11:51 a.m.

    I find this beehive debate or whatever amusing. I wonder if Brigham Young etc. knew all about the science of bees and what happens to drones etc. The Free Mason symbol thing is also interesting but plausible I suppose. But I think we are looking too deeply into this...

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    July 10, 2013 9:57 a.m.

    To "airnaut" you are wrong about bees. From the Keeping Bee website "In the fall, after a honey collection, bees do not only stop feeding the drones, but push them away from the open cells to the sealed honey. The drones can not open it, so they have to starve. After that, the bees begin to kick them out of the hive, and those that try to climb to notches, are killed and thrown away." This is a normal behavior. Every fall the drones that do no work other than impregnate the queen are kicked out.

    As for the Garden of Eden, again, your understanding is not quite all together. God set up and visited the Garden of Eden. God is not going to be visiting Outer Darkness. Therefore even being in the Gardenof Eden and living there would not be as bad as Outer Darkness because God does come and visit.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    July 9, 2013 7:00 p.m.

    USS Enterprise, UT

    To "Open Minded Mormon" Look at what happens in a bee hive during the late fall. The drones are kicked out of the have and sent to their death.

    [That happens very VERY rarely, and ONLY after they run out of honey.]

    Actually, there are worse curses than to be left alone in the Garden of Eden. Try Outer Darkness, that might be worse.

    [And pray tell, What do you think Outer Darkness is RedShirt? Try being left alone for all Eternity - out of the "Light"....hello?]

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    July 9, 2013 4:55 p.m.

    To "Open Minded Mormon" Look at what happens in a bee hive during the late fall. The drones are kicked out of the have and sent to their death. That is what happens in Communism and Socialism too. Why would you support a system that will literally kill those that are not productive as a means to save itself? That doesn't sound like a very Christlike system to admire.

    You say that "No man is an island", yet the scriptures and the Prophets have told us to be self sufficient (become an island). See D&C 78:28 "And again, verily I say unto you, that every man who is obliged to provide for his own family, let him provide, and he shall in nowise lose his crown; and let him labor in the church" Apparently God things that you should be an island too.

    Actually, there are worse curses than to be left alone in the Garden of Eden. Try Outer Darkness, that might be worse.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    July 9, 2013 4:04 p.m.

    @Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    Study your history.
    Spin history all that you want,

    That free people - free from governmental interference - used the beehive as a symbol of the faith that they had, that if they did their part, God would make up the difference.

    3:31 p.m. July 8, 2013


    Speaking of "spinning history" Mike...
    The beehive was hardly a symbol of "faith".

    1. In Utah, and for Mormons, The Beehive is a symbol of "Industry" not "faith", as you spun it.
    2. Most of the LDS founders were Free Masons.
    3. The Beehive is the emblem of a FreeMason - Master Mason.
    4. Deseret [from the Book of Mormon] means "Honeybee".
    5. Brigham Young had the "Beehive" house built in SLC for collecting tithes, [symbolic of honey].
    6. Bees are a collective society [Socialist/Communist] by NATURE [God] and can not survive "alone".
    7. Man is no different than bees. No man is an island. It takes a village.
    8. Adam would have been left a lone man in the Garden of Eden - no curse could be worse than that, ask Cain.

    I could go on, by I've hit 200 words...

  • Convert Cedar City, UT
    July 9, 2013 1:48 p.m.

    Plenty of opinions from all sides, so I'll add mine.

    The Constitution is inspired of God. We are taught this by our Prophets. We are to sustain it, live within its laws, as well as live our religion.

    I've never experienced problems paying my taxes, paying tithing and living within my means (I speak for our family of 6). The Government, whether Federal, State or local, is not an impediment to our freedoms. Our government is a protector of the Constitutional freedoms. Thus we worship as we please.

    And as far as being individualistic, the Church teaches us to be so. And the Government honors that prinicple.

    All the recent talk of Government intrusion and control and loss of citizen rights is hogwash in my opinion.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    July 9, 2013 12:36 p.m.

    To "Pendergast" did you see how I did not discuss "how they were instituted" I just discussed the end result.

    The United Order is not collectivism, people retain personal property rights. People still have to work. In communism you give up both of those.

    You may laugh now, but when the collectivism that the government is pushing takes hold, you won't be laughing so much.

  • Pendergast Salt Lake City, UT
    July 9, 2013 9:10 a.m.

    Redshirt & confused...

    Regarding forms of collectivist societies, I deliberatley put *other than how they instituted* to see what might happen.

    Lets just say I knew I'd get called out but wanted a good laugh. Thanks for not disappointing me.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    July 9, 2013 12:16 a.m.

    Cincinattus and Mike Richards:

    Somewhere between your interpretations is the truth. Yes, the Mormons moved into Utah because it was Mexican territory. It was also Mexican territory that the Mexicans had little interest in settling compared to California, therefore, Brigham Young was hopeful that the Mormons would be left alone. Still, Brigham Young was quite aware that the Mexico and the US were at war. The Mormon Battalion was formed in 1847. He had to figure that the US would win this war. What this meant for Utah was of course unclear but he was a smart man and had to figure that the US would win the war and the territory could change hands.

    Of course the Utah War of 1856 was part of the government efforts to assert control over the territory. However, there is an interesting side story that a southern sympathizer in Buchanans' cabinet who sent thousands of troops to Utah on the eve of the Civil War, not to quell or suppress the Mormon "threat" but to have some of the best soldiers stationed thousands of miles away when the Civil War broke out.

  • Cincinnatus Kearns, UT
    July 8, 2013 9:17 p.m.

    Mike Richards, you are woefully ignorant of history.

    Brigham Young led the Mormon pioneers to the Salt Lake Valley after considering several other places including Texas and California. They ended up in the valley because it was remote, far away from any other major settlements at the time. Brigham knew however, that though it was currently part of Mexico, it wouldn't be for long. He was not unaware of both the Mexican-American War and the idea of Manifest Destiny.

    The United States did not send an the army "outside" of the United States to force them to live religious laws prescribed by the government. They were sent due to unfounded rumors of rebellion against the federal governemnt. By the time the U.S. army arrived in Salt Lake in 1858 the Utah Territory had been a part of the U.S. for almost 10 years.

    Don't accuse others of spinning history when you yourself cannot even get the basic facts right.

  • 4word thinker Murray, UT
    July 8, 2013 8:26 p.m.

    Roland Kayser

    "Liberals support individualism when it comes to our personal lives,... Conservatives support individualism in our economic lives while liberals reject it."

    So you (liberals) support individuals choosing to do whatsoever they want, and the community pays the tab.

    Shall we share jail sentences too? Or just not have any laws and jails? Unlimited personal freedom with no personal consequences.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    July 8, 2013 3:31 p.m.


    Study your history. The "Mormons" left the United States. They traveled to "Mexican Territory" to get away from a repressive government. Even then, the US Government sent an army to force people living outside the United States to obey the religious laws prescribed by the U.S. Government - laws that are illegal if the Constitution is to be believed, unless the 1st Amendment has been repealed.

    Spin history all that you want, but the facts show that the "saints" had had their fill of a government that allowed their women to be raped, their men to be killed and their land to be seized.

    They came here, to A place outside the United States, to worship God without the "help" of the government and without the government dictating to them what doctrines they could have and which covenants they could perform.

    That free people - free from governmental interference - used the beehive as a symbol of the faith that they had, that if they did their part, God would make up the difference.

  • Confused Sandy, UT
    July 8, 2013 2:08 p.m.

    "Communism/United Order; other than how they are instituted, its semantics."

    If you really believe this...then you really don't understand either system...

    Communism takes away the right of property ownership and that the POWER of the State decides what is be to achieve their (As in State) goals, while the United Order, This preserved in every man the right to private ownership and management of his property. At his own option he could alienate it or keep and operate it and pass it on to his heirs.

    so "NO" they are not pretty much the same....

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    July 8, 2013 1:49 p.m.

    To "Pendergast" actually they are quite different, more than just how they are instituted. Under Communism you do not have private property, under the United Order you do have private property. The United Order does not have the state telling you what you can and cannot do with your land, and does not tell farmers what crops to raise or give them a quota. Communism, the state controls what you can do with your land, and gives the farmers mandates on what and how much to produce.

    In essence the United Order is not communal living, like communism is.

    Plus, looking at the number of people killed under Communism should be enough to make you and others fear it.

  • Pendergast Salt Lake City, UT
    July 8, 2013 1:24 p.m.

    to Redshirt1701 earlier today....

    LCommunism/United Order; other than how they are instituted, its semantics.

    Furthering the humor, the beehive on the state flag is an ideal representation for a commune, collectivist society, etc...

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    July 8, 2013 12:08 p.m.

    To "Ultra Bob" another thing about the Beehive analogy. When hard times come (winter) the communist bee colony kicks out the drones, where they starve and die.

    The non-produces are put to death by those that are doing the work and supporting the colony. That is what you get in communism. Those that become a drain on the system will be systematically killed.

    To "LDS Liberal" you may lean left politically, but if you actually listened to the Prophets you would lean right. Remember there are quite a few Prophetic warnings about modern day liberalism and its destruction of personal liberty. The scriptures speak out against communism and socialism. See D&C 134:2 "We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life." Socialism and communism tak away the ability to control property and sacrifice people it deems as a threat.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 8, 2013 10:40 a.m.

    Does anyone actually believe that the people living under a theocratic government had a better life than the people in Utah today? Did they live longer, healthier, happier and just have the good life that was better than the people of today?

    Did those people from the way-back really feel different about the government telling them to be charitable when the government was their religion?

    Many people feel that the government of today is bad, evil and oppressive. The only redeeming point about it is that it is the best government we have ever had.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 8, 2013 10:17 a.m.

    "The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer the least from luxurious habits which beget vice. Under such a system, carefully maintained there could be no great aggregations of either real or personal property in the hands of a few."--Brigham Young

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 8, 2013 9:43 a.m.

    Great letter Brian King.

    It does appear that Zion has become Babylon.
    The Gold diggers Brigham Young so worried,
    The Latter-Day Nephites -- are ripening for destruction.

    BTW -
    I lean left BECAUSE of the 'early' Latter-Day Saints.
    Not the modern - capitalist, anything for a $, me-myself-and I, selfishness and pursuit of Gain [Cain's Master Mahan eco 101] -- and "...I will do it; wherefore give ME..." ~ aka, Lucifer...

    Christ taught Altruism [selflessness and the better good of the Collectivness/Socialism of Society] and it begins with the one/individual.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    July 8, 2013 9:43 a.m.

    People today want to do almost nothing for the common good, and it manifests itself as a public loathing of government and society. They've sure got a sense of entitlement, though, and that comes through not just regarding government programs but in almost everything they do, right down to most children these days thinking the world is their trash bin and someone else can clean it up. Government and society aren't nearly as bad as everyone moans about, but they could be made better if more people took ownership and participated.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    July 8, 2013 9:30 a.m.

    re: M Richards.

    Gee, Mike. I am sorry (?) that Utah has digressed from the benevolent theocracy this "state" started out as.

    Curious; Do you wish it were still that way? If so, Its not too late save us all from ourselves and run for a seat in the state legislature.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    July 8, 2013 8:43 a.m.

    Do we work for the "State"? The Pioneers came here to worship God and to build His kingdom on earth. For them, church and state were the same thing. Building roads, bridges, canals and all other infrastructure was building the "kingdom", not building the State.

    The Federal Government abolished the connection. The Federal and the State Government taxed us for infrastructure. It became necessary to work as hard as we could to pay the taxes levied on us, hoping that there would still be enough left after the government took its share to feed and clothe our families.

    When people are forced to do what they were willing to do without force, both the State and the people suffer. Most of us willingly contribute many hours each week serving others. We willingly fix meals and make contributions to help with the burdens that others carry. But, nobody willingly lets the "government" tell them to be charitable and then to have the "government" force that "charity" on them.

    Compare the good that true charitable organizations have done in times of disaster to the harm and corruption that government has done under the guise of "charity".

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 8, 2013 8:02 a.m.

    The culture of bees is the ultimate expression of socialistic communism. There is no private property, no rank, no privilege, just everyone doing their appointed job for no other reward than survival. Not even the queen bee has status above the good of the hive. The non-workers, drones, seem to exist only to mate with some future queen and number many more than needed. Yet all in the hive have what they need as individuals.

    I often wonder if the beehive was the rallying symbol for the culture that Brigham Young espoused.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    July 8, 2013 6:18 a.m.

    Beautiful letter Brian! Amen! And Amen!

    I imagine that a few people will blast you today. The wicked find the truth to be hard.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 8, 2013 1:37 a.m.

    Liberals support individualism when it comes to our personal lives, while conservatives reject it. Conservatives support individualism in our economic lives while liberals reject it. Perhaps both have a valid point, but perhaps the best point for society lies somewhere in the middle.