Speaking of Utahns being accepting --I asked my brother yesterday
why he had hated Utah culture so much when he visited. The answer was
surprisingly relevant to our current gay rights discussions.To get
the full picture, you need to know that my brother is **6'9"**.
He's a mountain of a man, wide as well as tall. He's a lawyer as well
as a long-time teacher of Taekwondo. So -- picture a big strong guy of about 30
at that time.On that day he happened to be wearing shorts.So -- he was shopping in a bookstore in SLC during his visit to me. Another
customer, a Utahn, started berating him -- accusing him of being gay because HE
WAS WEARING SHORTS. This same customer even followed him OUT of the
store, still hurling anti-gay insults at him.It's no wonder my
brother would never visit me again. Hearing of this incident really cracks me up
now, and it *was* a long time ago, but....really?? SHORTS?? And if you're
going to try to start something with a supposedly gay person, do you REALLY want
to choose a guy who's 6'9" to start it with??
to Mountanman & ContrariusiestPerception is reality? No. Reality is experiencing life & and how we adapt to it NOT the other
way around. Re: LDS Liberal 7/5Try being someone w/
Libertarian leanings, capable of independent thought, & a penchant for
"People of good will" is the key. Certainly respect for the laws of the
land -- immigration law, for example -- is one value which would help define a
person of "good will," irrespective of various religious and political
"Mostly, we — Mormons and non-Mormons alike — should seek ways
to warmly welcome anyone of good will who wants to make Utah their home.""Good will" is the key. This implies that there may be a range
of religious, political and other beliefs, yet there is a COMMON commitment
among all Utah residents to certain, core values. Obeying, honoring, and
sustaining the law -- including immigration law -- certainly is one value that
would help define the person of "good will."
A someone that moved here from other places the one thing I will never
understand about so man Utahns in general is this strange notion they need to
make rude comments. You do not need to comment on my dress, my hair, my skin
color, my friend that walks with a cane due to MS, no of it. I do not know you,
you do not know me leave me be.
@ClarkHippo"As for the Deseret News, what you say may be true
but I'm sure a lot of people would say Utah's other major newspaper is
going more and more to the left."What does Utah's other
major newspaper have to do with this discussion? Are you trying to say that
part of the DN's journalistic function is to provide balance? If so, then
if two more conservative newspapers start up in Utah, are you saying it would be
proper for the DN to become liberal leaning?The issue here is that
the DN is owned by my Church, and I find it unacceptable that it leans to the
right (or left) politically.
@Twin Lights - I have read a bit of Brodie. She just seems so unbalanced to me
and with an axe to grind. Good point and apparently her uncle was
quite disappointed by her “ax.” Interesting though that her and
Bushman both pretty much agree on the facts and many of them are things I doubt
get taught in Sunday school (e.g., how BoM was translated, multiple 1st vision
accounts, polygamy, polyandry, Emma’s view of things, etc…).Personally I had the impression that Bushman “spun” the
facts as much as Brodie did, just in an opposite and “church
friendly” manner, but I guess this is where faith comes in…Despite Brodie’s more “naturalistic” interpretation of
events, I did not find her book disparaging in a general sense. I came away
thinking Joseph was a pretty unique and amazing and perhaps deserving of more
recognition by non-believers (i.e., a religious genius - more like Emerson).
@Twin Lights – “I just don’t have time to read
whole books much anymore.”Someday when the kids are all gone.Reached comment limit…
@GZEOOPS! I meant to say my new co-worker did NOT like driving in
Utah during this past winter. @TruthseekerI would agree
the divide between Republicans and Democrats is growing wider, but this division
is hardly exclusive to Utah or to Mormons. As for the Deseret News,
what you say may be true but I'm sure a lot of people would say Utah's
other major newspaper is going more and more to the left. I have found good
reporting in each, as well as reporting that I find blatantly biased and too
@John20000Cedar Hills, UTYou won't find another place
more accepting than Utah. This article got it completely wrong.7:59 a.m.
July 5, 2013======== If I were a betting man, I'd reckon John has never lived anywhere else.BTW -- I
2nd the comment from TruthseekerSLO, CA"There's worse
than being a non-Mormon in UT--that is being a Mormon DEMOCRAT."and wish to add this be expanded to all NON-Republicans, since this is
truly the defining factor.
Tyler D,Glad you have had a good experience with your LDS
neighbors.I have read a bit of Brodie. She just seems so unbalanced
to me and with an axe to grind. I have read a bit of Bushman. Arrington on
wider history.I would like to say I read a lot of history. I just
don’t have time to read whole books much anymore. I do read around a bit
on the web but these tend to be shorter articles.I have visited
Joseph’s birthplace, Palmyra, Kirtland, Nauvoo, Liberty, etc. but I am
hardly the expert on Joseph or on history generally. I have no ancestors who
crossed the plains.I can’t find the quote you mention so I
can’t comment. First I have heard of it.
@Mountainman --"Perception is reality, we each make our
own!"For once, I pretty much agree with you.I lived
in SLC for five years -- way back in 89-94.I have lived in the South
all my life except for those 5 years, so I'm used to living in conservative
communities (even though I'm not conservative myself).Although
I disagreed with the pervading politics much of the time, I never had any
serious trouble with the people themselves. In general, I have a very much
"live and let live" sort of attitude in that area.In stark
contrast, though -- my brother came to visit me in Utah, just once. He was so
shocked/offended/astounded by the local culture that he refused to ever come
back for another visit.I never did understand why he had such a
strong reaction. But as you say, "Perception is reality!"
Re:ClarkHippoI think since the era of Ezra Taft Benson there has
been an tension between Mormon Democrats and Mormon Republicans, but now it
seems more overt and ubiquitous within the Church. I believe this is no more
evident that the evolution of the Deseret News. What once was a center-right
paper is evolving into a decidedly right newspaper. The ugly divisiveness of
politics in a more extreme form has become the desired standard for Deseret News
as it is more closely aligned with voices outside what was once moderate
Republicanism. Too often now, Deseret News resorts to articles
about controversies for controversy sake, instead of articles simply providing
@GZEI'm truly sorry if you've been ignored by your LDS
neighbors. That should never happen because regardless of our religious
differences, we should find positive attributes in all people. Your
comment got me thinking about a lady (she's not LDS) who I work with who
just moved here from Austin, Texas about nine months ago, having never lived
anywhere else before except Texas. We chatted the other day and I asked her what
she thought of Utah so far. She told me she really likes it.
She's gone on a few hikes, she made a few friends among her neighbors in
the Murray apartment building she lives in, and while she did like driving in
our super cold weather this past winter, she has no complaints. I
asked her if the "Mormon culture" of Utah has been weird at all and she
said, no yet. Perhaps it just depends where in Utah you live, but I
would hope Utah Latter-day Saints are becoming more tolerant, understanding and
@TruthseekerYou said - "We know from these comment boards one
can't be a good Mormon and a Democrat."I am a
registered-Republican and lifelong Utahn, and maybe I'm in the minority on
this, but I feel you can indeed be an active Latter-day Saint and still be a
Democrat. Anyone who believes otherwise should keep in mind that
Larry Echo Hawk, who currently serves in the LDS Church's First Quorum of
the Seventy, previously served in the Obama Administration as Assistant
Secretary of the Interior for Indian Affairs, and before that was elected as a
Democrat to the Idaho State Legislature and as Idaho Attorney General. Also don't forget that many previous LDS general authorities including
James E. Faust, Marion G. Romney and F. Melvin Hammond had all been previously
elected to office as Democrats before serving as general authorities.
@Twin Lights – “I would imagine that the tolerance issue is highly
dependent on the persons leading each community.”Guess I would
go further and say if a religion is teaching people to truly “walk the
walk” (i.e., be Christ-like) as opposed to just being sanctimonious
pontificators, then I think all people of good will will respond in kind. And
Mormons are pretty good in that respect in my experience… Regarding Joseph – curious what you have read about him (e.g., Bushman,
Brodie, etc…) and how much you know about the facts of his life…
I’m guessing more than me.But yes, killing them seemed extreme
and uncalled for, although supposedly one of the men involved right after the
fact said “that’s for defiling my sister” so apparently he had
a pretty good reason (assuming it’s true).
We're all people, and so have almost everything in common. Yet the
discussion here continues to focus on religion, which divides us like nothing
No, Chad S, I don't see any big movement to stop celebrating Pioneer Day.
It may just evolve to include more diverse pioneers.
Tyler D,I don’t know. I would imagine that the tolerance
issue is highly dependent on the persons leading each community.I
have never been in a majority LDS area. Kentucky probably qualifies as the most
dense LDS population I have lived in. I have heard of members getting negative
reactions from the local evangelical folks. I suppose I have here and there but
I have chosen to ignore it. The vast majority have proven a bit skeptical at
first but very accepting upon further contact. I think highly of many of them
that I have had a chance to work with in various community or school venues.Reference Joseph in Nauvoo. I think the issues were not about religious
tolerance or power corrupting but action and reaction to persecution. Folks who
had left the church were bitter and made wide-ranging accusations. I think both
sides likely felt persecuted. But whatever else happened it seems clear that
there was no reason to kill Joseph and Hyrum.
I would like to see this piece cross-printed in the Tribune to compare the
It's just a matter of time until the non-religious in Utah demand that
Utahns stop celebrating Pioneer Day, which celebrates the arrival of LDS
pioneers to the valley.
@Twin Lights and @Mountanman – “Reference the stranger passing
through town, that has been my experience.”Mine too!Regarding LDS - whether that is inherent in the religion or more due to the
history of persecution, I don’t know. Were Mormons always this tolerant
even back when they were fully in control of an entire state?I
suspect power corrupts even the best of us as the Joseph I’ve read about
in the early days seems very different from the Joseph in Navoo. Your thoughts?
There's worse than being a non-Mormon in UT--that is being a Mormon
DEMOCRAT. We know from these comment boards one can't be a good Mormon and
a Democrat.I would note that the overall percentage of UTahns that
are LDS has remained steady (62.2%) over the last 3 yrs, with some counties
slightly increasing their percentage of Mormons (Utah Co.81.2%) and others
slightly decreasing (SLC Co. 51.4%).Frankly, when I visit UT i feel
like i'm in Stepford.
Mountanman,Reference the stranger passing through town, that has
been my experience.Reference Catholic Mass, the following is from a
2010 article in the Deseret News:"Brigham Young more than once
opened Mormon church buildings to Jewish religious services. In their turn,
Catholics first came to Utah in 1862, as members of the California Volunteers.
In 1866, when Father Edward Kelly sought a place to celebrate Mass, Mormon
leaders permitted him to use the old tabernacle on today's Temple Square,
and Brigham Young helped him to obtain clear title to land for the first
Catholic church in the city."
A man once came into a town that he had never been and asked a person standing
on the street what kind of people lived in this town. The resident asked the
stranger, "what were the people like in the town you came from."
"They were terrible was the stranger's reply; bigoted, selfish and
unfriendly" "That's the way the people are here as well, was the
resident's response. The stranger moved on thanking the resident for
helping him avoid making the mistake of living in this town. Later the same day
another stranger came to the same town and met the same resident. "What kind
of people live in this town the stranger asked." "What were the people
like in the town you came from" asked the resident? "Wonderful the
stranger said, helpful, friendly and the best people I ever met."
"That's the same kind of people who live in this town", answered
the resident". What does this prove? Perception is reality, we each make our
You won't find a more accepting place than Utah until you make it clear
that "Yes, you do know the Lord." and "No, you are not interested in
knowing more about THE church."Ater that, your neighbors will
cease to acknowledge your existance.
Is it true that the first Catholic mass in Utah was held in the Tabernacle at
Brigham Young's invitation?
You won't find another place more accepting than Utah. This article got it
There are reasons people come to Utah now that are different than in the past.
New residents are looking to enjoy the beautiful landscapes, and somewhat safer
environment. However, newcomers do not always understand Utah culture, and
do not always wish to embrace the LDS religion. If those whose ancestors
have "been here forever", and wish to keep things "just as they have
always been", can learn to accept newcomers who may have a different
outlook. Perhaps many could accept the fact that the world is changing.....If newcomers can learn to tip toe around the cultural and religious