@Baron Scarpia:"Here's my prediction: Keystone gets
approved, but OPEC drops world oil prices back down to $2.50 or so in the U.S.,
making it unprofitable to process the Canadian tar sands and financing becomes a
challenge, even with massive Canadian and U.S. subsidies."OPEC
does not control the price of oil. They sort of control the supply which sort
of controls the price. OPEC doesn't have the extra production capacity to
flood the market with so much oil that the price drops down that much.
...Pipelines generally are a safer way to transport fuel than the trains and
tanker trucks used instead." This is not a slam dunk. Pipelines can be
really dangerous. Witness breaks in the trans-Alaska pipeline and our own
problems here in Utah with them, e.g. Red Butte (permanent damage) and Willard
Bay (also permanent damage). Reliable transportation is already available to
move this stuff - rail. In fact oil from fracking mostly moves by rail, and it
is every bit as safe as pipelines. Don't endanger the Mid-West aquifer
unnecessarily. As to the global warming debate - global warming is no joke -
it's happening. The question remaining is to what degree it is man-caused.
If we must move this oil let's disrupt nature as little as possible.
@Mountanman"No cherry picking at all! All I said was gas was $1.79/
gal when Obama took office, which is true. I never said it was not higher at any
time previously."That's exactly what cherrypicking is...
picking a data point without full context of the full timeline. The price of gas
dropped from 4 dollars a gallon in early 2008 to 1.79 in early 2009 because of
the global recession reducing worldwide demand. That type of price drop has
nothing to do with any permit changes President Bush made (particularly since
we're talking about a time period when Democrats controlled Congress...).
Keystone will help provide a buffer against geopolitical instability that at
least equals any economic benefit. And far and away more than oil produced
anywhere else in the world the Athabasca sands return economic benefits to the
USA. You can see it when driving up and down the 15, massive tires and portions
of dumptrucks the size of houses, all headed for Suncor or GCOS or half a dozen
other extraction projects, all made in USA. You can see it in the new ADF metal
fab plant going into Great Falls. Yeah, let's get this pipeline on the go.
@ Real Maverick. No cherry picking at all! All I said was gas was $1.79/ gal
when Obama took office, which is true. I never said it was not higher at any
time previously. BUT President Bush increased the drilling permits on federal
land and something magical happened to the price of Gas; it went way down! If it
were not for drilling on private land that Obama can not stop,(N. Dakota for
example) gas would be hitting record high prices today!
The national average for gasoline was higher at one point under Bush than at any
time under Obama. BUT! What has the average gas price been during the whole
length of each president's time in office? I'm pretty sure the
numbers will show that energy prices have been much higher, on average, under
Obama than Bush.Re: BaronYou want to stop OPEC from being able
to directly influence global energy prices so much? Allow the West to actually
provide some real competition. Stop shackling energy production in the US. As
somebody already pointed out, if you care so much about pollution, allow the oil
to be drilled and refined in the US and Canada where there are actual
@Mountanman"According to the GasBuddy, a national gasoline price
tracking web site, the price of a gallon of regular gas was around $1.79 when
Mr. Obama took office. Yep, sure enough, its Bush's fault!"You do realize that gas averaged 4 dollars of gallon May 2008 right? Or over 3
dollars/gallon from 2007 through most of 2008. You know why the price of gas
plummetted late 2008? The recession. The massive hit to the economy the last
half of 2008 when we lost several million jobs reduced demand on gasoline which
sharply lowered prices. It had nothing to do with Bush. A better comparison
would be the 3.60 it's averaged in 2012-2013 under Obama vs the 2.90 it
averaged from 2005-2007 under Bush.
"#1: $4.00 gasoline caused by unnecessary government regulations on energy
which is killing the economy and jobs unnecessarily."Oil is a
commodity traded on the global market. Whether it goes through the US or
elsewhere this Keystone oil would have minimal impact on the price of oil
globally. "#2: China will buy the oil and use it and the CO2
emissions (if you believe in manmade global warming) will happen anyway by a
country that doesn't hold the same environmental standards!"If we buy the oil then China buys oil from somewhere else. It doesn't
change anything. Again, global commodity. "#3: Obama wants to
force "green energy" at any cost. So far, 34 companies that were offered
federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt
or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. "I was going to
criticize you for looking only at failures rather than successes or what even is
a reasonable percentage success rate for investments... then I realized you
sound like me when I'd talk about Romney's time at Bain Capital.
Here's my prediction: Keystone gets approved, but OPEC drops world oil
prices back down to $2.50 or so in the U.S., making it unprofitable to process
the Canadian tar sands and financing becomes a challenge, even with massive
Canadian and U.S. subsidies.Various NIMBY groups challenge permits
across the Mid-west (some sponsored by environmentalists, some sponsored by
foreign oil groups, some sponsored by local oil interests who want to keep oil
prices high -- think of all the groups behind the delays of Cape Wind in
Massachusetss), further delaying the project.Keystone becomes a pipe
His post at 7:28, that is . . . .
I completely agree with Mountainman. Indeed his claims are exactly what he says
in the last line of his post.
Develop green energy? Can you spell, expensive, unreliable and not nearly as
environmentally friendly as some would have us believe? Windmills are killing
millions of wild birds and many are being shut down all over due to high costs.
Solar energy production is expensive and not always practical(clouds and
nighttime),and the batteries needed require mining and produces lots of
pollution during the mineral refinement processes and then there is the disposal
problem of spent batteries. One needs look no further than all the failures,
bankruptcies and lack of competitiveness to prove this. Bottom line, if
"green energy" will ever be practical it won't be government
subsides that make it so, it will be the profit incentive to the private sector
and that obviously does not exist at this time.
Obama laundered billions in tax payer money to fund green energy fiascos, $500
million+ in Solyndra alone. Much of the money was returned to his campaign by
George Kaiser and other bundlers. The Keystone XL pipeline offers him no
financial gains. As Alfred Lord Keynes noted, money is politics. When Mr. Obama
flies Air Force One to Hawai'i on vacation, it's not running on solar
"@ Joe. There you go playing fast and loose with the facts again."Not fast OR loose. I used gasbuddy also. You, my friend are
cherrypicking the data. I am not.In fact, here is a cut and paste
from gasbuddy.__The highest that the national average hit
during each President's tenure:Bush: $4.122, July 15, 2008 (all time
record high)Obama: $3.965, May 11, 2011The lowest that the
national average hit during each President's tenure:Bush: $1.611,
December 31, 2008Obama: $1.817, January 24, 2009 (days after sworn in)__So Mtnman, in roughly a 6 month period under Bush, gas went from
$4.12 to $1.61. Care to tall me what Bush did to get the gas at an alltime
high? Or down to $1.61?My point is well substantiated. It is a global market. What the US does is minor compared to global issues.
SighRepubs want us to compromise on this. Why? So oil that we refine
can be shipped quickly to Asia? Don't we understand how oil is traded? This
won't lower our fuel prices!No more compromise on these issues.
No more!!! Either the repubs come along with us to develop green energy or we
won't have energy to meet our needs. Which I'm fine with. When we have
blackouts guess who will be held responsible? Yes, the party that is quickly
fading away. Bye bye GOP!
@ Joe. There you go playing fast and loose with the facts again.#1:Gas prices have doubled since Mr. Obama took office. According to the
GasBuddy, a national gasoline price tracking web site, the price of a gallon of
regular gas was around $1.79 when Mr. Obama took office. Yep, sure enough, its
Bush's fault!#2: Oil companies get some tax incentives (not the same
as green energy taxpayer subsides and loan guarantees) for energy development
activities but pay billions in taxes. How much taxes did Solyndra or any of the
dozens of taxpayer subsidized green energy companies pay?
#1: $4.00 gasoline caused by unnecessary government regulations on energy which
is killing the economy and jobs unnecessarily. Lets see. After 6
years of GOP control, US gas prices hit a higher mark than at any time under
Obama. Did the GOP cause this? Were the regulations worse then?A
reasonable review of gas prices would conclude that global events affect gas
prices in the US much more than any US govt regulation.#3 Federal
supportDo you have any idea how much "federal support" that
Stupid decision to stop the pipeline for at least three reasons:#1: $4.00
gasoline caused by unnecessary government regulations on energy which is killing
the economy and jobs unnecessarily. #2: China will buy the oil and use it
and the CO2 emissions (if you believe in manmade global warming) will happen
anyway by a country that doesn't hold the same environmental standards!#3: Obama wants to force "green energy" at any cost. So far, 34
companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering —
either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. Stupid, stupid, stupid!
"The Canadian tar sands will be tapped with or without Keystone"This is an overriding factor. That OIL will be burned. Might as well
run it to the gulf.Rather than have our politicians sell out for
campaign and lobby money, the US needs to get something for it. I am fairly
confident that our politicians will put themselves and party ahead of the
people. As usual.