Paying for helping others

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  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    July 1, 2013 12:30 p.m.

    To "pragmatistferlife" the deficit reduction is gone. The ACA will add to the defict. When the deficit reduction was in place that was when it cost about $900 billion, and would reduce the debt by $200 billion. Now, it is estimated to cost $1.7 Trillion, meaning that there will be a $600 billion deficit. How are we going to make up that difference?

    To "the old switcharoo" God will not bless us for this fascist program. God bless those individuals for help the poor. God does not make the wealthy slaves to the poor. God does not enslave, he only liberates. Again the wealthy are being made slaves to the poor by being forced through the tax system to serve.

    To "ugottabkidn" health insurance companies typically do not provide healthcare, they only pay for healthcare. You can always get healthcare if you want to pay for it.

    To "LDS Liberal" we already have unsubsidized gasoline. The US government reaps more revenue from oil companies than the oil companies see in profits. Just look up and see how many billions they pay in taxes, and royalties. If they received subsidies, what is the dollar amount they get?

  • Another Perspective Bountiful, UT
    July 1, 2013 7:01 a.m.

    Ryan all the arguments you made could be made against public funding of education too, would you get rid of this too?

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    June 30, 2013 7:10 p.m.

    @Mountainman. You have no clue how our monetary system works. Money only comes into existence as debt. When someone borrows money from a bank to buy a car, for example, the bank does not lend some others deposit, it simply creates money in a transaction account in return for a promissory note.

    When people are not borrowing money it is obvious money is not being created but the problem lies in the fact that people had borrowed money in the past and with every loan there is interest and here is where the bankers got us. The banks only create the principal but not the interest. If everybody decided they were no longer going to borrow money then our money supply would shrink by the simple fact that interest always exceeds the principal.

    In a recession most people either can not borrow money or don't want to, which starts to shrink the money supply, which leads to more layoffs and downsizing. The government is essentially the only entity that can stop the shrinking of the money supply by borrowing money.

    I hate our monetary system but if no one advocates changing it then we must work within the system.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    June 30, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    If you have to show identification to board an airplane, cash a check, buy liquor or check out a library book, but not to vote who runs the government ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

    If your government believes that the best way to eradicate trillions of dollars of debt is to spend trillions more ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

    If hard work and success are met with higher taxes and more government intrusion, while not working is rewarded with EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid, subsidized housing and free cell phones ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

    If the government's plan for getting people back to work is to incentivize NOT working with 99 weeks of unemployment checks and no requirement to prove they applied but cant find work ... you might live in a country founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    June 29, 2013 10:05 p.m.

    This is a perfect example of how clueless conservatives have become and why they wont be a factor unless they change considerably.

  • the old switcharoo mesa, AZ
    June 29, 2013 7:36 p.m.

    The ACA was a republican brain child and is closer to the Japanese health system except in Japan they strictly regulate the price of each healthcare service, something that would give conservatives palpitations. A night stay in the hospital there costs about the same as a dinner at McDonalds.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 29, 2013 6:24 p.m.

    When Ryan Philips starts paying $7 a gallon for UN-subsidized gasoline,
    or $5 a loaf for bread from UN-subsidized farmers,
    or buys a home at 8% pays twice the interest from an UN-insured bank,
    he can write all the whiny letters to the DN he wants too.

    America is anything BUT a Free Market capitalistic utopia.

    You want an example of free markets, less government, and minimal taxes...
    Think Somalia.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    June 29, 2013 3:05 p.m.

    @ Ryan

    Ryan, if your motive in writing this letter was to express your undying love for health insurance, then you did a poor job of that. Why? Because the ACA doesn't prevent you from getting health insurance and paying the absurd salaries of rich beyind belief CEOs and Wall Street execs who have no idea about health care but who are owners of hospitals and insurance companies.

    Face it, your wrote a sour grape letter written with the completely ridiculous slippery slope logic to bash the President. It has been debunked by the comments. And now you're merely trying to save face and act like your letter had some noble point to is.

    You folks need to stop complaining and start thinking. Until the GOP offers an alternative, they cannot complain. Goodness, they had the White House for 8 years and didnt do anything to reform health care. So if you hate Obamacare then blame your do nothing GOP for not resolving this issue when they had the chance.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    June 29, 2013 3:03 p.m.


    Are you speaking from personal experience? What are your sources?

    For better or worse, ACA is not modeled on the Canadian system.

    The majority of Canadians favor their healthcare system. Canada's healthcare system came about by one province adopting a universal system which proved so popular it eventually became the model for the country. A 2012 poll by Ipsos-Reid for Postmedia News and Global News finds that 80% of Canadians prefer the “not-for-profit” health care model, where services are delivered by the public sector. Only 20% would rather have a “for-profit” system delivered by the private sector.

    On the other hand,
    ACA allows states to develop their own universal coverage systems. Vermont is moving forward on developing a single-payer system. Maybe UT and other conservative states can develop a different system.

    Those of us who've consistently been covered by health insurance have long subsidized those who aren't. The only way to totally eliminate that is to demand payment or proof or coverage up-front before rendering medical services and then to deny medical care to those who can't produce the necessary funding.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    June 29, 2013 2:12 p.m.

    Sign posted by the US government outside the N. entrance of Yellowstone National Park:
    "Please don't feed the animals, it makes them dependent and they lose the ability to take care of themselves."
    What an oxymoron!

  • Jl Sandy, UT
    June 29, 2013 1:54 p.m.

    I would gladly convert my co-pay, deductibles and premiums to a tax that would give us single payer. It would cost each of us less and we could improve our outcomes to at least 25th in the world instead of almost last. It's time for HB676.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    June 29, 2013 1:33 p.m.

    Ryan Phillips, your immature sarcastic letter proves you don't know the meaning of socialism. You have no understanding of socialism, capitalism, free enterprise, or monopolism. You do yourself a disservice let alone other readers. Healthcare should be provided by healthcare professionals not the CEO of United Healthcare because I can guarantee you haven't been serviced by him. There are some things that should not be profit based. Your good or bad health is one of them. As far as who pays for it you further prove that you don't have a grasp of facts. I suggest you do some more research and as for Canada, ask yourself why 90% of Canadians would never think of changing to our system.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 29, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    The selfishness expressed in this letter is simply disgusting.

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    June 29, 2013 12:43 p.m.

    Ryan's post is much better than the lowball approach of his original letter. I find it hard to believe, however, that he feels that his health insurance gives a better value than people in other countries get.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    June 29, 2013 11:16 a.m.

    Those democrats seem to forget that health care insurance rates and deficiencies are a direct result of a failed government program - FDR's wage freeze. When that Democrat interfered with the free-market system by freezing wages, the only way left for companies to keep valued employees was to offer "benefits". One of those benefits was health insurance.

    Because of "insurance" and the very liberal plans offered by many companies, people got the idea that a visit to the doctor's office was either free or that it only cost $20. They failed to realize that the insurer was paying the other $300. Doctors had to raise their rates because they required at least one more person on the payroll to handle the insurance paperwork. When some insurance companies demanded lower and lower costs, the doctors passed the real cost to those who didn't have insurnace - which is opposite of what a free-market would do.

    Democrats caused the problem, now they want to mix 18% of all income into the general fund - with a hollow promise to care for our health.

    We've heard that false promise before. Does anyone remember Social Security?

  • Ryan Phillips herriman, ut
    June 29, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    My letter was obviously not meant to be taken literally. The levity was a stab at the way the piece in question simply lays out how "federal money" will do so many wonderful things for us, without reference to where that magical "federal money" is coming from. Companies everywhere have stagnated growth and cut employee's hours to avoid penalties and extra costs from Obamacare. And this is just the beginning. Hopefully we can overturn this massive step towards European socialized medicine on a state by state basis before it's too late. Our system is far from perfect, but to anyone who thinks Obamacare is the way to go, you should see move to Canada and try to get good, quick medical treatment. To Mark B of Eureka--yes I have health insurance because I PAY for it. If you want to donate your tax dollars to pay for my healthcare coverage then let's talk.

  • Edgar Samaria, ID
    June 29, 2013 10:21 a.m.


    Thanks for adding sanity to the otherwise insane - or should I say inane - claims made by opponents of the ACA.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    June 29, 2013 10:00 a.m.


    There is nothing in ACA which talks about hiring 6000 (or 16000) IRS agents.

    "The Treasury Department on Feb. 14 released the IRS budget request for fiscal year 2012 that shows the agency is seeking 1,269 full-time equivalent employees (FTEs) at a cost of $473 million to help implement the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. That includes 291 IRS agents, most of them (193) to "ensure accurate delivery of tax credits." For more information, read our Ask FactCheck, "IRS and the Health Care Law, Part II."

    The IRS’ main job under the new law isn’t to enforce penalties. Its first task is to inform many small-business owners of a new tax credit that the new law grants them — starting this year — which will pay up to 35 percent of the employer’s contribution toward their workers’ health insurance. And in 2014 the IRS will also be administering additional subsidies — in the form of refundable tax credits — to help millions of low- and middle-income individuals buy health insurance."

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    June 29, 2013 9:52 a.m.

    Medical care is too expensive; making it a kind of state monopoly and forcing everyone to have it will not help.

    Now housing is perhaps different. When prices are high it might actually help if there were homes for sale at cost by a housing department, who might also provide small homes for young couples and retired couples - at cost, and using volunteer administrators. Set up in competition in areas where demand is high, prices are draconian, and builders are building every home with 2 or 3 bathrooms. Since this is not an ennumerated power of the federal government, however, this would have to be done by State or Local authorities, or private benefactors.

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 29, 2013 9:33 a.m.

    My favorite thing about the "Affordable" Care Act is that it authorizes the hiring of 6000 new IRS agents to make certain that we serfs ...errrrrr citizens have health insurance coverage that our Washington DC overlords deem appropriate. That's especially comforting to know as a Conservative because as we've seen- the IRS is really even-handed in it's treatment of Conservatives and the groups that represent them.
    I actually despise almost everything about the law. But it is the law of the land forced upon as without a single Republican vote but unfortunately that's the way it works.
    I will say this though: if you voted for Obama (especially you youngsters out there)and/or you support this law then you better get out on the exchanges and sign up for a policy. Don't be a hypocrite. That means if you're 26 and in the prime of your life healthwise you still need to go buy your policy and pay your 300.00 a month - 3600.00 a year and don't complain about it- I don't want to hear any complaints.

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    June 29, 2013 9:29 a.m.

    Let me guess - Ryan has all the health care coverage he needs, and so does everyone he knows.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    June 29, 2013 9:08 a.m.

    Well Ryan.
    Romney and conservative organizations thought it was a good idea.

    Really DN?

    Out of all the letters you had to choose from, (perhaps that is the problem) you decided one dripping with sarcasm and hyperbole fit the bill.

    How nice.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    June 29, 2013 8:45 a.m.

    I know how easy it to flip out a credit card. and how much easier it is to spend other peoples money, but when I have to put up my own cash on the counter, I'm having second thoughts on the extra idem.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    June 29, 2013 8:36 a.m.

    Ryan, your expressed selfishness exceeds your sarcasm. Health care is not a consumer commodity, and no one is suggesting it be 'given away'. The fact is we are already all paying, in one form or another, for health care, or health insurance. I differentiate between those items. In any case, for what Americans pay as a nation for health we get a poor deal. Our outcomes and cost effectiveness would improve with a single payer health care delivery model in place. And if, by chance, such a system were to help someone out more than they contributed to the system, I'd feel pretty good about it.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    June 29, 2013 8:31 a.m.

    The writer is certainly correct that this needs to be paid for. The problem we have had is that we have had emergency room treatment available to those without insurance but that is super expensive and usually administered at the worst time (after the issue has festered too long). The system we have had rewarded those who go without insurance with zero premiums and they still get to have care if they need it. That is moral hazard.

    Whatever system we go to needs to require everyone to be insured. Healthcare is unlike other issues. We can go without it for years, even decades. But one single illness can bankrupt a relatively wealthy family.

    Don't like the ACA? No problem. But don't tell me we can just go back to what we had. State or regional plans would be fine. But there was precious little movement on them until the ACA came about.

    The ACA may not be the ideal solution. But the GOP proposals have been little more than "not what he said". Repeal and replace is fine but only if we have a real, fully developed alternative that has been deeply examined.

  • micawber Centerville, UT
    June 29, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    Reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy. Everything can be reduced to the absurd.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    June 29, 2013 7:48 a.m.

    Ahhhhh yes Ryan, when all else fails, gooooo down the slippery slope! Works every time for any issue when you don't have a rational counter argument! Just create a bunch of gross exaggerations and completely ridiculous hypotheticals and boom! A perfect slippery slope argument.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    June 29, 2013 7:23 a.m.

    Of course Ryan forgets little details like the CBO projects the ACA will have a net reduction affect on budget deficits from 2012 to 2021, and that most implementation costs are coming in lower that projected.

  • the old switcharoo mesa, AZ
    June 29, 2013 6:49 a.m.

    You either believe the Lord will bless the nation for taking care of the sick, or you don't.

  • the old switcharoo mesa, AZ
    June 29, 2013 5:09 a.m.

    Sadly, conservatives don't actually believe in God. Santa Claus yes, violently but If they did believe in the Lord they profess to they would believe that the lord would bless a nation that directly obeys his command and takes care of the sick.

    This hypocrisy is just sad considering it was THEIR idea to mandate health insurance. They have plenty of ideas, but no solutions and definitely no sacrifice.

  • Suburbs of SLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 29, 2013 1:51 a.m.

    Can't you acknowledge that it's a little selfish, short-sighted, and arrogant to compare helping people gain access to affordable, life-saving care to giving out cars and clothes?

    Ron Pollack published a detailed, well-written, and well-meaning article. You don't need to agree with him. You don't need to agree with Obamacare. But your article trivializes the reality that there are people who suffer, and who are in real need of, and deserve, a dramatically different system. By resorting to hyperbole rather than offering alternative solutions, or indeed even acknowledging that the status quo is legitimately problematic, you simply reemphasize the ever-growing distinction in the US between those who believe in trying new solutions, however imperfect, and those who blindly, adamantly, and cold-bloodedly ignore the reality of struggling Americans.