Rolland, I take issue with your basic economic argument. You say that
immigration reform will lead to a "collapse in the price of labor" and
that means that "you and I will have to work for less. Your
argument is nothing more than a rank red herring scare tactic.Point
one, the new immigration law will legalize people who are already here and
working, so it will not result in any significant increase in the supply of
labor. Point two, once these immigrants are legalized they will gain political
power and will be in a better political position to push for higher wages. And
when that happens, it will push wages up for many of us.What the
Republican party is really afraid of is just that. There wealthy oligarch
supporters do not want to be put in a position to pay a fair wage. They want to
keep the slaves down on the farm.
Who is cutting your lawn?
@prelax: "The CBO doesn't include local costs, just Federal."I doubt the CBO included dramatically increased unemployment benefits
which will have to be paid the laid-off American workers when illegals will get
green cards and the right to work legally.
Harvard Economist George Borjas once stated, "In dragging down wages, immigration currently shifts about $160 billion per year from workers to employers." The Rich get richer and the Poor get poorer.A
slight increase to our economy, at a huge cost to state and local services. The
CBO doesn't include local costs, just Federal.
The Congressional budget office claims they will add 17 billion a year. (with 8
million working), that's $2125 per worker. Since they are already here and
working, that's a raise of $2125. We could do the same thing by
having business pay 8 million American citizens the same amount. The
answer to spur the economy is not to allow people to come here illegally and
give them citizenship, it to make business pay 8 million Americans $2125
Frank Moss has risen from the grave. It took more than 30 years, but Frank Moss
has been reincarnated as Orrin Hatch. Hatch's actions or lack thereof
speaks volumes of the once champion for the common man who has become a career
politician more concerned about his monetary legacy. Hatch no longer cares for
this country. He begged the constituents to send him back to Congress for one
last hurrah because "he would do so much with the power he accumulated over
the last 30 years". Right. This man remains silent and does NOTHING but
collect his paycheck. I haven't heard him speak up against illegals and the
need to deport them all
@atl134 "So granting them amnesty would have a very small impact on
the employment situation."It's not that simple. One, it's having a devastating impact right now, which is one reason they
should be required to return home, not be given Amnesty. Two, The
primary objective of the Gang of Eight is maintaining the status quo of no
enforcement to speak of, either at the border or in the nation's interior.
Also amnesty would signify that the law means nothing. Millions more therefore
will be encouraged to illegally invade the land -- thus not only will the
problem not be solved; it also will be severely exacerbated. Yes
4word thinker, you have the right idea. But it seems the Democrats have a
power, control and domination over people problem severe enough that they are
willing to sell out their country for it.
Once business has to pay an equal wage, they will lay them off and hire the next
wave of people here illegally. That's what happened in 1986. That's
why we face this problem again, we are not enforcing our laws. We
can stop people from coming here illegally, at the border, e-verify, and in the
interior. Deportation when first discovered removes the profit of coming here
illegally. We just need honest leaders.
@Roland Kayser:"I agree that our immigration system is broken and that
we need to change it."Tell us just how the immigration system is
broken. Be specific.
So if most the illegals here have jobs, (per atl134), and there are about 11
million of them here, making them vacate those jobs would sure help the 11.9
million unemployed American citizens. That seems to me like
enforcing the laws would have an enormous positive impact on employment
situation in America. It would help wages too, as the workers are in higher
demand with the reduced supply.Sounds like just what all Americans,
including democrats and republicans, would want. So why are the
democrats against enforcing our laws?
@atl134 Or will those who are now employing illegal aliens simply fire them and
hire a "new" illegal alien? Especially since, soon, the employer will
be responsible to pay at least a part of their healthcare. The illegal aliens
currently employed MAY very possibly find themselves waiting in an unemployment
line and taking advantage of the social safety net we have.
In case you all haven't noticed, the illegal immigrants who are here
already have jobs. That's how they can afford to be here. So granting them
amnesty would have a very small impact on the employment situation. One thing it
would do though is take all the illegal immigrants who are currently working
under the table for less than minimum wage, and bring their wages up.
"and Democrats that low wages equal good economics. "Nonsense. Every time Democrats talk about raising the minimum wage Republicans
attack them as being job killers.
To Irony Guy: The United States of 2013 bears no resemblance to the U.S. of the
1800's. Back then most people made their living farming, and we had an
essentially unlimited frontier where all the new arrivals could go. That is
obviously no longer the case. Economists are convinced that the maximum growth
rate for a mature economy like ours is around 3-4% a year. That being the case,
their is a limit to how many immigrants we can absorb in a short period of time
without dragging wages down.I agree that our immigration system is
broken and that we need to change it. I am also not opposed to immigration per
se. But we have to do it in a way that won't harm American workers, who
have been getting hammered for 30-40 years now.
I wish folks would stop thinking this is an "R" or "D" issue.Fact is; if smarmy employers get another 20 million workers added to the
labor pool, wages will be restricted/reduced. The biggest damage to the working
poor, all the way to lower-middle incomes have come from illegal alien
employers.Advocates for illegal alien trespassers have used every
argument under the sun to excuse the behavior of employers who hire illegal
trespassers. I think MOST people are beginning to see that the lobbyists (they
come in various forms)will stop at absolutely nothing to make sure they get a
consistent and constant supply of workers who will be taken advantage of and,
consequently also, suppress wages of LEGAL American citizens.Regardless of
"political" affilliation, law enforcement should never have become
politicized. But, thats where we are, and BOTH sides of the aisle are
complicit; mainly because the lobbyists for small business are FUNDING both
sides of the aisle.Democrats and Republicans alike SHOULD care that
jobs for the "working poor" are being taken by illegal trespassers.BOTH parties should just push for enforcement of current laws.
The full scope of immigration cannot be captured in a newspaper editorial.
History clearly reveals the magnitude and duration of the struggle in America.
One of my favorite books is T. Sowell’s 1981 book titled Ethnic America in
which he describes the struggles of 9 ethnic groups. I am not a big fan of much
of Sowell’s editorial writing, but I do value this book. However, this
book does not address many of the issues in today’s immigration debate
such as the proposed expansion of the so-called high-skilled labor visas. This
is a major problem in the proposed legislation that gets too little press.
Moreover, the struggles of black Americans are especially unique in any
discussion of the history of immigration. President Jefferson outlawed
importation of slaves in 1807. The 13th amendment ended slavery in 1865. But
things were not settled, and a series of the civil rights have been passed up to
recent times. Several states apparently attempted to disenfranchise black voters
in the recent elections. So I suggest that we, as citizens, fully appreciate
the struggles before us, and we must continue to work hard to secure a just and
I wonder if hatch is for it because the Tea Party is against the wholesale
granting of amnesty for people who have violated our laws. Of course this
is going to kill our economy and many more people will be out of work or working
for minimum just to keep their jobs.Hatch will not be running again for
office (at least this is what he has said) and so he can let his mask slip and
leave office with the worst bill (just like 0care) that this congress will leave
us with.The dems on the "gang of eight" are saying there will be
no borders. So Sen Hatch, say goodbye to our country as we know it!BTW, I
voted for him hoping that he would do the right thing. No I don't think
this bill is the right thing.I am all for going after business who hire
illegals, they should be fined heavily.And, I was a legal alien! So
I'm not speaking about something I don't know about!
So let me see if I can follow the supposed logic here. If we give people a path
to citizenship which means they no longer are working under the table for below
minimum wage which will lead to current citizens no longer having to compete
for jobs with people that companies can pay less then minimum wage its somehow
going to lower wages?
So now it's the Democrats who favor low wages? As I recall, it was the
Republicans who vehemently opposed raising the minimum wage. Which party is
really in the pocket of large corporations and their determination to drive
wages to the lowest level possible? Well, both are. But the Republicans have
done far more to entrench corporate power and encourage the widening gap between
the rich and the rest. So of course Orrin favors lowering wages in any way
Economics can be complex. History shows that vast waves of immigration to this
country stimulated the economy rather than depressing it, as markets expanded
and people built houses, got schooled, started families, etc. The same arguments
were used in the 1800s against the tidal wave of European immigrants. But the
influx of Italians, Slavs, etc., buoyed the economy. The same will be true of
our current wave.
think that most employers take care of the illegal workers. The workers are
honored as much as every one. But I don't like the big employers that bus
them in sell them homes and cars then bust them for being illegal, steel their
stuff and ship them home and bus in more to do the same.
Roland is right and it's not just economics that teaches us his point.
Life teaches us the same thing. Want to lose weight permanently, figure out how
to cut your demand for weight gaining food. If you retain your desires and
simply reduce your supply, you'll eventually fail. Immigration
is the same thing. As long as we have a demand for low wage workers there will
be a supply, and of course the Richie rich's of this country know that.
They are well aware that you can't "secure" the boarder and stop
the supply. So once again the ignorant and hateful are being used by the
powerful to do their bidding. It will be an interesting day when the typical
tea partier becomes aware of who is really pulling the strings of their misery
If Democrats claim they want higher wages for workers why are they always in
favor of amnesty and open immigration for illegals?
Anyone who has taken even the most basic introduction to economics class can
tell you that supply and demand is the most fundamental law of economics. At a
time when demand for labor is low, we're contemplating a law that will
greatly increase the supply. The obvious result of this change will be collapse
in the price of labor. That means that you and I will have to work for less.
Right. Because republicans are against keeping wages low. Because repubs have a
long history of fighting for the worker and not richie CEOs. Because the GOP
plan totally fixes immigration...What's hilarious is how the
GOP excuses businesses for hiring illegally. Why not punish the businesses who
break our laws?