To "LDS Liberal" you are wrong. Just because people break the law, that
does not give them a pass like the letter suggests. If a law is broken, it is
broken and the punishment that is attached should be implemented.If
you are being tailgated or traffic is going faster than 65 mph, should those
people be treated extra carefully so that their feelings are not hurt, or should
they receive the punishment that the law proscribes?
@MapleDonSpringville, UTNo one should have exclusive right to
break our laws.===== I'll remember how ridiculous
you sound each and every time every car on Utah's Freeways with all the
good law obeying Mormon citizens tailgate and pass me like I'm standing
still as I drive the posted 65 mph LAW.No one, now excuses --- ya,
To those that think that punishing all employers is the way to go, you are
incredible naieve. Lets look at things from a small business point of view.
Imagine I have a motel, I manage the place, and have 10 employees. I have a
hispanic person apply for a job, and they provide documentation that looks
legitimate, but isn't. They are hired, and work for a while, then the ICE
does a verification on my employees. Should I be punished for unknowingly
hiring an illegal immigrant?Now, how do you punish intent? How can
you prove that somebody intended to hire illegal immigrants?The
other thing that you are forgetting is that there are ways around the employment
laws that many companies use.One option is to make the illegal
immigrant a co-owner.Another option is to make them a 1099 employee
where they are essentially a contractor.A third option is to simply
pay them cash.You can't make employers into criminals unless
you can close the loopholes.
Che:We all realize except for the Native Americans that we are all
immigrants. But we also must live in the real world. The United States is a
sovereign nation and must have the authority to manage its territory. I do agree
that those that hire illegal immigrants should be prosecuted and of course we
should treat those found crossing the border illegally humanely. This is what
separates America from many countries in the world.
The funny thing is that if the borders were secure, we wouldn't have to
worry about what to do with the people that cross the border illegally. Think
of it like your house. Do you worry about insulating you windows or drafts
coming through the walls if you windows are good don't allow the wind
through, and if you have plugged the leaks in your house?If you
solve the source of the problem, which is a pourous border, the issue of what to
do with those that come here illegally at the border goes away.
No one should have exclusive right to break our laws. Unfortunately, the
DesNews, the Democratic Party, the Communist Party of the USA, and others feel
otherwise. And just for discussion's sake, anarchy is the result of a
community's rejection of the rule of law. Several entities are
disinterested in our nation's well being. Most Americans, thank goodness,
are. And most Americans recognize that the passage of a new immigration bill
will not resolve the problems stemming from an unsecured border, refusal by our
government to enforce its laws, and several entities profiting from illegal
Miss Kathy conveniently omits the environmental crisis at the border by the
mountains of trash left behind by illegal crossers. She fails to
mention the U.S. citizens who live along the border, who are under siege from
illegal crossers who cut fences, damage their property, slaughter their
livestock and steal from them. She doesn't mention the many
National Parks now closed to citizens, because they are so overrun with armed
drug cartels, making the area unsafe. There are also many Americans
who've been killed by illegal aliens along the border. One of my good
friends (pregnant with her first child) was shot and killed by an illegal alien
who ambushed her during a routine traffic stop in Texas. We have
every right to secure our border and demand that would-be immigrants follow our
rules to come here. All other countries seem to enforce their immigration laws,
so why shouldn't we? It's unfortunate that our elected/appointed
officials lack the willpower to do so.
@Twin Lights:"Sending them all back is simply unrealistic."Sending them back is simple. Just enforce the E-Verify law passed by
Congress and illegals will deport themselves... No jobs and they go somewhere
else."I cannot get behind any legislation that does not get our
borders under control."You better get ready. The Democrats have
just a situation in mind. Some Repubs are joining.
@2 bitsThanks for getting your dander up at the blather of Ernest. You
saved many others the trouble.
If we are good Christians who care about the poor why would we only feel sorry
for Hispanics coming here illegally? Why wouldn't we open our doors to the
poor of Africa, India, Egypt, China etc?
perhaps we ought to just grant them amnesty - free health care and a college
scholarship!! Oh wait - we are already are doing that as long as they vote for
the Democrat party. Those darn mean ole Americans anyway - how dare they try to
enforce their laws. For pete sake what has the world come to when people
don't have the right to free stuff? Those of who do work and pay taxes in
American have the obligation to give our money and property to any foreign law
breaker who wants it ... it's all about fairness remember?? We already give
our money freely to the army of Obama bums to compliment their free
Ernest,You're being totally illogical today.Yes illegal
is illegal. Do some research...There WAS NO IMMIGRATION LAW TO BREAK in 1847!
Mexico had no such law! So they broke no law! That's the reason I
researched and quoting the history and the law at the time in Utah!"What good christian could possibly begrudge someone who is just barely
making a living at well below the poverty level? They are simply pulling
themselves up by their bootstraps"... WHAT? Now living below the poverty
level means you can break the law???So if your living below the poverty
level and just pulling yourself up by your bootstraps... is it OK to rob banks?
So why is it OK to break our immigration laws? This just makes no sense!And the "good christian" stuff... give it a rest. You
don't know my religion just as I don't know (or care about) yours.
That has nothing to do with this.
Ernest T. BassWe were at war. The Mormon batallion joined the battle
in 1846. Unless you are saying that those here illegally are an act
of war, your excuse is irrelevant.
2 bits: It didn't bother them in 1847 any more than it bothers
"them" now. Illegal is illegal, right?Besides, they're just
here to make a living. What good christian could possibly begrudge someone who
is just barely making a living at well below the poverty level? They are simply
pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
Ernest T. Bass,NOT AGAIN... this lame argument has already been discussed
as you have brought it up a hundred times.Pretending the settlers of
the West are the same as today crossing the Rio Grande KNOWING you are violating
US immigration law and are subject to deportation... is lame. It's not the
same.I think the pioneers knew they were not in the United States
when they settled in Utah. And so did the 49rs who settled San Diego, and the
people on the Oregon trail. But Mexico did not regulate immigration in the
Utah, California, or Oregon like we do today. If laws were broken... then
Mexico would have prosecuted the settlers. But they didn't.Here's some facts on the topic (search utah history in wikipedia)..."Early in the Mexican-American War in late 1846, the United States had
captured New Mexico and California, and the whole Southwest became U.S.
territory upon the signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, February 2,
1848".So technically they were trespassing for a year, but there
was no immigration law regarding Utah at that time. Totally not the
same situation today.
We are bad people because we try to enforce our laws?
To Ernest T. Bass...What's your point. Using your logic, that means Mexico
was illegally taken from the Native American populations by the Spanish and
French. And prior to that, the Asians over the Bering Strait. And if you are
part of the Mormon culture, Middle Eastern peoples established themselves here.
So who's an illegal immigrant? Just about all of us. White
Europeans were not the original immigrants.The point is, Ernest, we
have a serious, uncontrolled problem. Close the borders since no one seems to
care about entering the US illegally, and create a quick, fair, low cost system
of immigration into this country....not the disaster that the Federal Govt. now
uses...which is what we usually get from the Federal Govt.
The inscription on the Statue of Liberty ought to be modified to read something
like this:"If your tired, your poor, or your huddled masses
yearning to breath free come near our borders, we'll send them back where
they came from. And don't expect us to treat them much better than the
border guards in Sudan would."God Bless America!
White Europeans: The original illegal immigrants. In 1847 Utah was part of
I agree. I tried to enter Mexico from our border in Texas and was treated very
badly. In fact arrogantly and mean. When I complained the custom officials
just laughed at me. We should all write to Mexico and tell them to be more
courteous. The border is also very bad between Southern Sudan and Northern
Sudan and Southern Sudan and Uganda. There they just shoot you when you try to
cross the border. Water, food, a bed? You must be joking.
The problem is best solved by coming down hard on employers that hire illegal
immigrants.Does the average person realize that when a family member
is sick and dying in the US, people from south of the border of most often cut
off from visiting them no matter how honest they are in their intentions to
return? It's shameful. Eliminate the jobs and eliminate the
unfair trade policies that keep Mexican farms for being able to compete with
subsidized US produce. Who are the socialist? All those republican leaning
COMMIE US farmers that insist on price support handouts.Stop the
Real Maverick says, "Why don't we ever talk about punishing businesses
who break our laws"?Well... obviously we do. Everybody I know
of who doesn't support illegal immigration supports some form of E-Verify
to make sure businesses also have to obey the law, and to insure businesses are
punished when they don't take due-diligence to prevent undocumented workers
from committing identity theft and taking jobs that could otherwise benefit
American families.Some specific instances where ICE cracked down on
Businesses and people like you and Rocky Anderson cried like babies to get both
the businesses and the individual offenders off without prosecution...1. In December 2006, immigration agents entered the Swift meat-packing plant
in Hyrum, Utah, as part of the largest immigration enforcement raid on a
business in U.S. history. About 1,300 undocumented workers were arrested.2. December 2001, immigration agents raided the Salt Lake International
Airport, where 271 employees were fired and a third of them were arrested and
charged with falsifying documents to get work in secure areasRemember how Rocky Anderson and other Liberals protested both raids?
"One proposal I have favored is making those employers pay the cost of
deporting each illegal that they have hired."Kind of unfair for
the landscape owner to pay the same as Walmart.I say, link the
penalty to the income of the employer. And make it harsh and likely.This will do far more to curb illegal immigration than a fence.
@Maverick and Twin Lights:I have talked many times about the need to
punish the employers who hire them.One proposal I have favored is making
those employers pay the cost of deporting each illegal that they have hired. In
addition the option to have their family deported with them so there is no
separation has always been available.
This article demonstrates why it is almost impossible to enforce our laws.
Especially our immigration laws.When we think the Boarder Patrol
should not intimidate anybody.. heck what's the whole purpose of HAVING a
Boarder Patrol??? It's to intimidate people who are thinking of crossing
in hopes of helping them decide NOT to cross!Why do you think some
stores have a police officer standing at the door? It's to intimidate
would-be shoplifters into deciding NOT to shoplift. The Border Patrol serves
much the same function. They are there so would-be criminals know if they do
the deed they are going to have very unpleasant consequences.If
boarder patrol can't intimidate anybody who breaks our laws... should we
require the officer in the mall to just tip his hat to people leaving with
stolen merchandise? Because it could be embarrassing and inconvenient if he
arrested them.I know this person's consideration for those
coming to America illegally is well intended. But what is law if we don't
enforce it? And enforcement of law is often unpleasant. Ask any of the 33% of
American children with an incarcerated parent.
One method of avoiding such abuses is to not enter this country illegally.
It's not as though they are innocents who stray across the border
Why are they coming here illegally?Why don't we ever talk about
punishing businesses who break our laws? It's seriously so sickening to see
them so blatantly thumb their noses at the American people. Punish businesses,
force them to hire americans, and you would be amazed how few immigrants would
Everyone makes a choice in life. No one is forcing people to cross our borders
illegally. What is wrong with coming to America legally? What is wrong with
securing our borders? We do need to fix the immigration system. I don't
understand why those breaking the law should have special consideration just
because they have a family. They are the ones that chose to put their family in
jerpordy. Without rules there is chaos. Why can't they apply for
citizenship? You or I would never dream of trying to enter a country
illegally. The reality is in this day and age is there are to many people that
want something for nothing. There is a price for freedom. There a a lot of
hard working people in America that try to follow the rules. They help others
in need. I am getting a little tired of making us out as not humane. No one in
the world helps others like Americans. Now we have 8-11 million undocumented
people in America-doing it their way-not our way. Stop giving a pass for
breaking the laws of the land.
It is indeed a sad situation when many of the invaders into our country meet
with injury and sometimes death but, knowing the possible threats, they bring in
onto themselves.They should not be trespassing onto the sovereignty
of another nation of which they do not belong.
Kathy, You seem to be slightly confused on some of your points.1.
The choice to cross our borders without permission is against our laws. And
choosing to cross in more remote areas in the hope of not being caught is no
different than the burglar who chooses to break into the store in a remote area
of town in the hope of not being caught. Would you say that our harsh laws force
burglars to break into stores?2. Our actual needs for foreign labor cannot
be determined accurately until we can collect data on how many jobs are still
not filled after we have full employment for our citizens and have filled all of
the visas allocated by the current law with nobody being hired without
permission to work here.3. With 7.6% unemployment it would appear that we
have no need at this time for any foreign workers.
If there are abuses, that must be rooted out. As to the border being
"militarized" and tough to cross, that is by design. Those detained
should be treated humanely, but then sent back. In short, the border must be
secure. No amount of security will catch all crossers, so an appropriate
e-verify system should go national (this will address the reason people
cross).None of this goes to the issue of those already here. For
those who are just trying to work and live their lives, we need a compassionate
and realistic solution (some are now being proposed). Sending them all back is
simply unrealistic.There need be no conflict here between the goal
of a strong border and treating those here with respect. But as much sympathy
as I have for those here and their often difficult circumstances, I cannot get
behind any legislation that does not get our borders under control.