I think one of the things we all are learning from a lot going on is that even
if a program or government organization is good, it can be used for bad. If
there is any blood on anyones hands, it belongs to the people now in charge and
what they are doing with it. Not the people who authorized it years ago. Or,
as in the case of things like the IRS or NSA, decades ago.
To "LDS Liberal" since my earlier post was removed for some reason. Let
me just refute your claims by stating that your history on these message boards
only suggests that you are a constant Progressive/Liberal.You claim
one thing, while doing the exact opposite. There are many examples of that in
your posts.For the purposes of this, I will give you one point of
inconsistancy. You claim to be libertarian, yet you fully support socialism.
That is highly inconsistent because a libertarian seeks out the least amount of
government control, while a socialist seeks for massive government control.
This leads me to question your integrity.I would go deeper into how
questionable your honesty is, but you or others like you would report it as a
To "airnaut" you realize that Huntsman wasn't running in the
general election for President, and had dropped out. I am amazed,
your voting record shows that you have no idea what you stand for. You have
gone for a libertarian and a Progressive, quite the polar opposites. Where do
you stand politically, your posts typify liberal/Progressive policies yet you
claim to have voted for a libertarian candidate. Do you even know where you
stand politically?I don't have the blood of guild on my hands.
I supported the candidate I thought had the greatest chance of slowing the
progress towards socialism.
I'm a Republican, and yes, the Patriot Act may well have provided that
"slippery slope" that the Obama administration is now sliding at a
hundred miles per hour on.
To "airnaut" lets see, the choice was the Progressive walking towards
socialism (Bush) or the Progressives sprinting towards socialism (Kerry and
Gore). Given the choice between fast and slow, I chose slow.Explain
why you voted for Obama twice. In recent weeks, he has shown that what Bush did
was like amature night at the comedy club.Why did you vote for Obama
twice, when warned by conservatives that Obama was going to suck up as much
power as he could, and drive us closer to a totalitarian state?
@RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UT"...It was also Progressives
like Bush...""The ironic thing is..." YOU
voted for him TWICE.
To "UtahBlueDevil" so what you are saying is that it is ok for Obama to
abuse power because his predacessor did? Really, that is the best you can come
up with? I guess that means that you don't mind government abuses as long
as "the previous administration" did it too.To "The Real
Maverick" when did I ever say to vote in Democrats. I said to vote in
Conservatives, which typically are Republican (your ilk calls them extremist
Republicans), Libertarian, or Independants. It is rare to see a conservative
Democrat.To "atl134" It was also Progressives like Bush, and
Richard Durbin (D). The ironic thing is that their vocal opposition only lasted
until Bush was out of office, then silence. It wasn't until somebody
wanted to sue that the ACLU got involved (money for their lawyers?). Michael
Moore only opposed the Patriot act because Bush supported it. Just look at how
silent he has been when Obama reauthorized it, and enacted laws to allow
warrentless wiretapping.Basically, Progressives were on both sides.
@RedshirtProgressives were the leading voices AGAINST the Patriot Act
(ACLU, Feingold, Michael Moore) from the very start and still are. Protip:
progressive policy isn't actually defined as "whatever Redshirt
@Redshirt"Why are the liberals not decrying this? Conservatives (not
necessarily Republicans) denounced the Patriot act."The ACLU has
filed a lawsuit with the NSA over the Patriot Act's phone surveillance. Do
you consider the ACLU liberal?
It needs to be stopped,or else there will be no end to it. It will
continue to grow and encroach.It is all about power and control, and those that have it will not give it up, not easily, and not
without a fight, just see how out government leaders talk about it.And remember the next person voted in and takes it's reigns may be
someone you don't like or politically oppose. Will you trust them with it?
"If you want to see more Conservatives in the Congress opposing things like
the Patriot Act and the aweful things that Obama has done with it, stop opposing
the conservatives that run for office."So you're suggesting
that we vote in more Democrats? More Democrats than repubs oppose the Patriot
Act. I'm glad that you have finally come around Redshirt! Yes,
next election, lets vote all the repub bums out and just vote in Democrats!
@RedShirt - please find me a case of rendition under this presidency.... please?
Obama has found was of abusing it.... oh please... do tell what he
has done that the previous administration hasn't. This partisan silliness
yet amazes me. There are certain things the government does for national
security which really transcend party lines. Good grief, could we please put
the country ahead of the parties.... I am not a republican... I am not a
democrat..... I am an American.... first and foremost. Can we please put the
school yard name calling away - at least on one issue.
If you own a cell phone, or have a credit or debit card.... you already lost
this battle. You personal behavior is being data mined all the time. You think
the adds that appear on your browser - even on the DN - you actually think those
are random, or the same for everyone. I hope not. What the
government is or isn't doing is just the tip on the iceberg. Googles
entire financial model relies on selling your personal information to
vendors.... what you search, what pages you look at.... what computer you browse
from.... your cookies and history.... all for sale.This has nothing
to do with BO, or Bush.... you give up your "privacy" daily when you
walk down the street with your phone - which tells the phone companies where you
are, how long you stay there, etc.Give up folks..... we are way
beyond what that book talked about.
I sincerely hope that our government will use every possible avenue to locate,
identify and nullify the people who hate our government.
To "atl134" It looks like we did get a good showing of Conservatives
opposing the reauthorization.Just look at a lot of the Republicans
in the senate. They are either Progressives, or have been there for so long
that they are easily persuaded by Progressive arguments.If you want
to see more Conservatives in the Congress opposing things like the Patriot Act
and the aweful things that Obama has done with it, stop opposing the
conservatives that run for office. You and your ilk keep saying that
Republicans need to be more moderate. Well, this is what you get when you have
more moderate Republicans in office. What is needed are more Conservatives, not
more moderate Progressives.What should concern you most isn't
the number of conservatives voting for the reauthorization, but the fact that
Obama not only signed it, but has found a way to abuse it.
Well, I think we've proved that many of us are hypocrites, considering very
few people who protested GWB doing this are now upset that it's Obama doing
it(or vice versa) Now the question is how do we stop it? Face it, the public
acts like sheep, electing Democrats and Republicans, who act like they are
different, but are really fascists wrapped in the flag of democracy. GWB is a
fascist, Obama is a fascist. When a Democrat or a Republican wins in 2016,
whether it's Hillary, Jeb, Christy or some unknown D/R guess what.
They'll act like fascists. Unless we have the guts to throw both the
parties out we are going to continue to be treated like sheep, have our right
trampled and get nothing done. So next time you go to vote think about that
before pulling the trigger on the same old small minded ideas you voted for the
@Redshirt"Why are the liberals not decrying this? Conservatives (not
necessarily Republicans) denounced the Patriot act."Then why
didn't they vote against it in higher numbers since DW-NOMINATE scores
consider the current Republican house caucus the most conservative ever? When
the 2011 reauthorization came up every republican in the senate except 4 voted
for it (Paul, Lee, Murkowski, Heller) and the Democrats had 14 no votes
including Sanders. In the House the Republicans were almost 3:1 in favor of it
while Democrats were 2:1 against it. @lost in DC"Where was
the outrage when BO extended the patriot act? Bet you still voted to re-elect
him."We were annoyed with it, Romney supported the Patriot Act,
and we still agree with Obama on most issues even if he acted like a Republican
on this one, so there's no reason not to re-elect him considering the
circumstances from our perspective.
Well at least Republicans are starting to come around to where a decent chunk of
Democrats have been (half in the senate and 2/3 in the house voted against the
Patriot Act reauthorization in 2011). While we're at it we need to deal
with FISA too.
I don't know what is sadder -- that the NSA is tracking all American
communications like we feared they would, or that some people are surprised and
shocked by this news. When they said "we're going to collect
everything, but only look at certain stuff", you didn't really fall for
that, did you?
Mr. Obama has told us that he won the election, so live with it.
Curmudgeon,Sending a letter is handled differently by a
Congressmn's staff than sending an email. Congress answers letters. It
requires action on their part, at least if you ask them to respond. Emails seem
to just be counted and then ignored.In the letters that I sent, I
asked my Representative and both Senators to forward to me the warrant, signed
by a judge, that listed the items to be searched and the probable cause making
that search legal. I also asked them to tell me whether an "Act" can
supercede the Constitution, reminding them that the Constitution is the ruler by
which all laws and "Acts" are measured and allowed or disallowed.When citizens make a Congressman explain why he rejected our rights in
order to give us "security", that Congressman knows that we are keeping
track. It's a not-to-subtle reminder that he is a temp worker and that we
are paying his wages. It requires him to be accountable for what he is doing.
Maverick,Where was the outrage when BO extended the patriot act? Bet you
still voted to re-elect him.Ernest, are you saying BO was a
repub when he extended the patriot act?Curmudgeon,Of course,
even if you don’t use a return address on the snail mail, they can still
dust the letter for prints or DNA, and still find a way to track you down.
Mister J: Exactly. Iraq was such a great decision because it was Bush. Had it
been Obama, Utah (which polls showed supported the war more than any other
state, except when it came time to enlist, then we had the least amount of
support), would have hated the war in Iraq.
Why are the liberals not decrying this? Conservatives (not necessarily
Republicans) denounced the Patriot act.What the liberals here forget
is the little fact that it was their guy that not only extended some of the
worst portions of the Patriot Act, but has also added to the intrusions into our
privacy.Like "Onion Daze" pointed out. With enough
information you can trump up charges on anybody. In light of the recent
scandals, do you liberals honestly think that the information being collected
won't be used against innocent people?Ask yourselves this,
would you trust a government filled with people you hate with the information
that is being collected?
Mike:I agree that we should communicate with our representatives. I
might suggest, however, that you can do so electronically. It gets there
faster, and saves the cost of a stamp. Plus it's easier for
the NSA to track and store. You know, just in case . . .
The old excuse of "you didn't protest when your guys did it, so you
have no right to complain" may score political points, but it doesn't
solve the problem of what we believe our government has the authority to do. I,
for one, was in Junior High when the Patriot Act was passed. I apologize that
the 14 year old version of myself didn't do more to protest such invasions
of our privacy, but I now stand with any Democrat, Republican, or Independent
who believes that all this data mining is in direct conflict with our 4th
amendment, and the protection against searches and seizures without warrants and
probable cause.I oppose these things not because they're a
slippery slope, or because it means big brother is at the door, but I oppose
them on their own merits. Collecting phone records of millions of Americans
without probable cause is a violation of both the spirit and letter of the
fourth amendment. Simple as that. I support our Constitution, especially the
Bill of Rights, and stand with anyone, regardless of party, who is willing to
stand for civil liberties.
I will not say one shouldn't be outraged but what did you think they were
going to do out there when they announced they were building a NSA complex and
our Congressional delegation were doing backflips in joy? Do you really think
this program was a brainchild of the current administration? I also think you
are bit amnestic to think that the source of problems in our free enterprise
system is anything other than monopolies paying their way with boatloads of
cash, ie the recent special Monsanto legislations. How does the minority leader
in the Senate increase his personal wealth by 24 million in 6 years? Who is
greasing palms? Where is your outrage about Congressional corruption, legal only
because they say it is? Is it because you voted for participants?
I read the book 1984 and the only additional thing I would add to the
recommendation is to keep in mind that it is fiction. It is not fact. It is not
prophesy. It is not likely to happen. Information about people is
a commercial commodity. It is worth money. Consequently business is the
greatest information gatherer because it can be used to sell products. The LDS church has a data base about parentage. On the internet anybody
can find personal information about arrest records, sex violators, I am able to
see the phone statistics and information about my family group phones. I get junk mail with my mortgage balance on it. On the telephone I got
“Happy Birthday” from a businessman that I don’t do business
with. I had a disagreement for a free eye examination because I
objected to putting the day of the month on the application where I has already
given my age, and year of birth and the month of birth. They said
“it’s for the record”. Asking for personal
privacy in the open world is like walking naked down the street and expecting
people not to look.
It's up to the citizens to rein in the government. I'm fairly certain
that these posts on the Deseret News are not forwarded to Congress; so, if you
want to do anything more that "sputter", write your Representative and
let him know how you feel. Of our two Senators, Mike Lee already
"gets it". Orrin Hatch was promoting the new "King" sized
building being built in Bluffdale where the information being gathered will be
stored and "mined". He's a lost cause. Everytime I write to him,
I get a very polite response that is full of platitudes and no substance.
Rarely do his response letters even mention the problem that I asked him to
solve.The Constitution protects the People, but as with any
contract, if the People don't enforce that contract, the other party (the
Government) will continue to abuse us.Get busy. Write those
letters. Be a responsible American, buy the stamps and send the letters.
When the Patriot Act was quickly pushed through Congress right after 9/11, we
were all pretty out of our minds afraid of what was coming next. But with that
said, it was intended to track calls made outside our country. What the NSA is
doing now is collecting data on all of us that could be used at anytime to
blackmail, prosecute, or intimidate an individual. Look at what happened to
General Petraeus. He was a victim of this system. I am not passing judgment on
whether he should have been exposed or not, just that the info was readily
available to the administration when they wanted Petraeus out of the CIA. There
are so many laws and regulations in this country now, that we can hardly breathe
without breaking one of them. If, our views are deemed a threat to a current
President, whoever, it may be, average Americans could be the target of
retribution. I need only point to the IRS targeting Tea Party groups. The NSA
has unconstitutionally gathered our digital data, and it needs to stop. Laws
that oppose the 4th amendment need to be challenged in court.
The sky is falling.
GK Willinton..."Agreed. Not to mention the spawns of the Patriot
Act.... TSA & DHS"Gk.. Neither TSA or DHS was the spawn of
the Patriot Act.. they were created because of a so called "Bi-partisan"
commission findings when they discovered that several us intelligence agencies
were not sharing information. Which of course the "Liberals" jump on
because it bashed Pres. Bush.Maverick... If you had taken to the
time to actually study the Patriot Act and what the intent of both the Democrats
and the Republican members of congress wanted it to do, then you would have
found out that they had put in some provisions to prevent the abuse of the
current NSA administration.. But when you are not held accountable for
violating laws, procedures or whatever like the Obama administration... this is
I, too, am a huge proponent of privacy. I avoid social media entirely, seldom
answer the phone, etc. And I don't appreciate the government collecting my
metadata. However, as maverick pointed out, people around here didn't
squawk when the patriot act was passed. And what will they shout when the next
attack occurs? Something like 'why didn't the government prevent
this', I expect. I think the business of keeping us safe is not as pretty
or cut and dried as we'd like.
to Ernest T. BassLike The Patriot Act or invade Iraq?
It must be tough for the Republican haters to live in a state like Utah where
unemployment is low, crime is low, and the economy is good. Perhaps you would
prefer California or New York where the reverse is true.
Re: "It's been proven, the government is only evil when a democrat is
in the White House."Glad to see you're finally getting it!
Maverick: It's been proven, the government is only evil when a democrat is
in the White House. When a republican occupies 1600 Penn, then the government is
wonderful and inspired and can do anything it wants.
It's a case of too little too late, I'm afraid.
re: The Real MaverickAgreed. Not to mention the spawns of the
Patriot Act.... TSA & DHS.
Where was the outrage when the Patriot Act was passed?
I remember the hysteria when there was a "John Bircher" behind every
tree in the 1960s, especially in Orange County. The state tax people in
California, under direction of Governor Brown and Attorney General Stanley Mosk,
studied the dickens out of one anti-communist organization there. That was 50
years ago Gary. Remember payola, vicuna coats, golfing and goofing, Vietnam,
Watergate, presidential and vice presidential resignations, etc, etc. The
Republic and its people still stand 50 years later. Matching phone numbers and
some IRS harassment is not 1984. Keep the faith baby.