@Eric SamuelsonNot all of the Founders embraced slavery, please describe
how they and they alone advocated oppressing women rather than living the mores
of their time and when they killed Indians, it was as a result of self-defense
or during the French-Indian Wars or fighting the British Indian allies. I
believe that the values of the Founders being referred to are self-reliance,
thrift, and the desire for a limited government. I am certain that there are
@Mark BThe incident you are referring to was done by an adult not a
minor. The man was 25 and an ex-marine. you can find plenty example of mass
killings by adults not by children, such as done by the guy in Norway to gun
free and unarmed citizenry of Norway. More to the point I was
referring to high school and lower. NO recorded shootings by minor student.
Mr. truth is not remembering correctly. The University of Texas experienced a
mass shooting in 1966 in which a single gunman killed fourteen and wounded many
more from the top of the campus' tallest tower.
The speed laws are unconstitutional. GW had a racing buggy and no speed limits
from nanny state.
Lets all adopt Thomas Jeffersons religious views.in fact, lets require it to be
taught I school. Any religion started after 1776 should of course be banned.
There is no recorded incident of student initiated shooting up of a school
prior 1975,lots guns few laws and regulations. IT was
time tested values and principles, and a society that valued life, that was
taught to the students,The number of guns has increased greatly in
last 50 years without a corresponding proportionate rate increase in gun
violence.We do not have a gun problem, we have sick society
problem.Attacks against the founding fathers are disingenuous, they
agreed on the core values and principles, and they didn't have societal
violence with gun problem and they stopped no one from owning any weaponry or
Mike,Yes, I believe at least some of the Founders would think that
fewer abortions, even if the number is still too high, is progress. That's
the nature of progress.You apparently missed my first comment on
this thread. I agree that we need to focus on values. Specifically, I think you
should focus on values and quit questioning the moral integrity or commitment to
Constitutional government of anyone who disagrees with you.
"Not logical because gun control laws do not keep guns out of the hands of
criminals, never have, never will."Yes they do. "Do you think that even one of the founding fathers would tell us that. .
. "You have absolutely no idea what any of the founders would
think about any issue if they lived today. I love these people that
use other people dead for two hundred years to back up their own personal
opinions. There is only one thing we can say about the founders with certainty
if they lived today: they would disagree on the issues just as much as they did
Mike,If you're truly so concerned "unborn babies being
destroyed in the womb", then you'd be supportive of comprehensive sex
education and access to birth control that would actually decrease the number of
abortions. You'd be advocating increased support for poor families and
better funding for education in order to improve their quality of life once
they've been born. Otherwise, you're just crying crocodile tears.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahThey included the words,
"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in their founding documents. How can someone who is denied life enjoy "life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness"?========= The disconnect Mike
is when does 'life' begin.YOU place it at conception, Myself and many other do not - including the LDS Chruch.We do not
"seal" children into eternal families until "the breath of
life".Adam did not become a "living soul" until the
"breath of life".We are no more "alive" at an
individual single cell, than we are not dead until the very last
"cell" dies.An what about the 1 trillion cells the die in
your body each and every day?
To Mike Richards: At the time of our founding abortion was legal until the time
of quickening, that is the time when the baby can be felt to move inside the
womb. States did not begin to pass laws against it until around the time of the
Civil War. Since the founders said nothing about abortion, I think it's
safe to assume they were okay with the status quo of their time.
Micawber,Do you think that even one of the founding fathers would
tell us that progress is being made because fewer that 2,000,000 unborn babies
were destroyed in the womb last year?The subject of this tread is
the change between American morals today and the morals held by the founding
fathers.There is no "number" that anyone can quote to show
that a smaller number means that American morals are getting better because
fewer unborn babies are aborted.I did not minimize the downward
slide of moral character by claiming that because a few more babies were spared
destruction that we must be turning the corner towards becoming a more moral
people.The opposite is true. When adults who should know the value
of a human life sit back and pat themselves on the back because not quite as
many unborn babies were aborted, that only emphasizes that moral decay has
happened.If abortion were the only indicator, then we could put all
energy into overturning Roe v Wade, but how many other "markers" are
there that show that the founding fathers had values and that we don't?
@Mountanman"Not logical because gun control laws do not keep guns out
of the hands of criminals, never have, never will."Yes it does
because states with tighter gun control laws have more violence on average. By
your logic we should sell beer to minors, get rid of the speed limits and just
get rid of all the laws because criminals will be criminals anyway.
MikeI am just as opposed to abortion as you are. Your suggestion to
the contrary is offensive. We all want abortions to decrease. That there are
still too many is bad, but that there are fewer is good. You have a
habit of trying to make anyone who disagrees with you seem lazy, immoral, or
bent on undermining the Constitution. It is not an attractive habit.
@mountianman.... did you even read your own post? Lets remind you.... You
stated...:"but if you are a liberal, guns cause crime, matches
cause arson and...." Pretty much day in and day out you make
proclamations of what "liberals" think. But those attitudes just
don't reflect the real world. For example abortion, of Republicans, nearly
40% feel abortions should be legal under all situations, and comparatively
nearly 40% of democrats don't believe in unrestricted abortions. That
means on just this one issue 2 out of 5 don't believe in their parties
platform. This from a Pew Research study published in 2012. And not
surprisingly independents were split 50/50 on the issue.Yes, the
talking heads and parties themselves would like to pretend people fit into nice
little buckets. But another data point... hunting permits. The states issuing
the highest number of hunting permits per capita are Pennsylvania is first in
granting hunting licenses, followed by Texas, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
Doesn't fit the little red/blue state thing now does it.Any
broad statements that start with "liberals believe/think" are by their
nature wrong.... and in my opinion cartoonish... because people don't fit
into only two buckets.
MountanmanHayden, ID@ atl. Not logical because gun control
laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, never have, never will.
Gun control does not equal crime control.1:49 p.m. May 25, 2013=====So long as it's remains more difficult for me [a 55 year
old, white, LDS man, with no criminal history, and the last and only traffic
violation I ever got was in 1974] to buy over the counter medications than it is
for me or ANYONE else [criminals and the mentally insane] to buy an MR-15 and
1,000 rounds of ammo...then that argument is of 'banning won't stop
crime' is and ALWAYS will be null and void.Using YOUR flawed
logic, you should be championing drug use, prostitution, and total anacrchy -- I
mean, you are the one that keeps telling us that law and order doesn't stop
crime and criminals....
@ atl. Not logical because gun control laws do not keep guns out of the hands of
criminals, never have, never will. Check with Chicago for the verification of
this truth; strongest gun control laws and the murder capital of the nation. Gun
control does not equal crime control.
I agree that the list of tragedies is too long, but I disagree with the cause.
Is the premise here that God was taken from us and is no longer
available to direct our actions because of government? Is the freedom of
religion less today than before? Were the people more moral when government was
controlled by religion?The evil connotation of “gang
mentality” as advanced by conservatives is wrong, the gang mentality is
that which makes civilization possible because it is simply the natural belief
that the group is greater than the sum of the individuals. In every case where
we join a gang, a gild, an association, a union, a club or even a nation, the
motivation is always the same, to give ourselves greater control over others, to
make us bigger than we are. Having a gun seems to be the same
"...God was taken out of our lives by government and we lost part of our
value system"If you look to government to provide your value
system your value system is weak. Values are personal and none of
government's business. Those that believe in limited government should
never complain that their values are lost because of government.
micawber,You've made my point.Although 50,000,000
lives were destroyed since 1976, you seem to imply that if the number of
abortions diminishes each year, that there is no problem. So, it seems that
you're saying that only the number of lives destroyed is important, not
life itself. That "change" in morality is not something
started with the "founding fathers". They included the words,
"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in their founding
documents. How can someone who is denied life enjoy "life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness"?When personal concern for protecting life
from destruction equals God's concern for each of us, then the concept of
the nobility of the human soul will have a new-found importance and the values
lived and understood by the founding fathers will be respected. Until then, we
should expect a continuation of degradation in America.
Back to slavery! Back to oppressing women! Back to killing Indians! Yep, we
need to go back to the values of the Founders!
re: Mike Richards on 5/25And here we go.... 1) The
"state religion" is a philosophy? Hmmm!? 2) The alleged decline in this
nation has nothing to do w/ *values*. *values* are subjective as is a
philosophy. It has everything to do w/ the creation of the Fed which was the
beginning of the corporate state i.e. Fascism in the US. 3) Murder has some to
do w/ lack of respect but there is more correlation with the fact it is a crime
of passion.Tell me Mike; Are you for replacing the Eagle as the
symbol of the US w/ an ostrich??
New Hampshire and Vermont have the highest rates of atheism, and the lowest
rates of crime in this nation. When all 50 states are looked at as a whole
there's just no correlation between religiosity and gun violence (and
I'm being generous saying there's no correlation since the Bible belt
states in the south are very high for gun violence).@MountanmanWe know guns don't kill people, but people kill people with guns (to the
tune of 30,000 a year in this nation including gun-used suicides), so by
regulating guns we are regulating people so that the people who want to kill
people with guns are less likely to have those guns.
To Mountanman May 25UBD is right. You do paint broad brush strokes
w/ only 2 colors (black and white). The last Star Wars flick (Revenge...) may
not have been right but they weren't wrong when they said, "Only the
Sith think in terms of absolutes."Personally, I think you taking
the easy way out psychologically, emotionally, & mentally to limit your
perception and beliefs.
“The Founding Fathers believed and established this Country on principles
such as hard work, ...”.A portion of “The Founding
Fathers” utilized slave labor to accomplish most of the “hard
work” on their private properties.The nation that they helped
establish, when all is said and done, is among the best on this planet. But
these men had some flaws and their works were not 100 percent perfect.
@ UtahBlueDevil. First of all, I never said what you said I said so thanks for
putting words in my mouth. Secondly, what I DID say I have learned by experience
and observation and its no comic book version of the world. It may be to you but
then again, who's version of our country is a comic book version? Now that
is a relevant question.
"It seems that maybe the problem started when God was taken out of our lives
by government..."Don't be silly. If you want
to live in a country run according the conservative religious dogma, Uganda,
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran await you.Otherwise, try instead
living in the real world of constitutionally protected liberty, including
freedom from being forced to abide by the religious rules set forth by religions
to which you don't subscribe.If your religion wants you to do
certain things that make no sense but are otherwise harmless to other people,
then go ahead, knock yourself out. But if you want everyone to
abide by the nonsensical rules of your own religion, then expect a legal
challenge, and expect to lose.
@Mike Richards. The number of abortions is decreasing. Does President Obama get
credit for that?
1. If we don't have God in our lives - how is that the Government's
fault?[Unless the letter writer is suggesting Government forced religion.
Ala, The Taliban, Sharia Law, etc.]2. Gangs operate on the same
premise as "Capitalism".Buy and sell whatever the market demands,
Get Government out of the way, Dog eat dog, only the strong
survive, do whatever is necessary to crush the competition, King of
the Hill.[Unless the letter writer is suggesting we eliminate
Capitalism.]Sometimes, it seems Conservative can't see that the
"values" they espouse are sometimes their own worst enemy...
It's time to pull your head out of the sand. The "State Religion"
of America is either atheism or secular humanism. We have just as much
government control of the doctrines dictated by government to establishments of
religion as any European country. Obama has dictated that establishments of
religion WILL provide birth control and abortions to anyone who works at those
establishments, regardless of what the 1st Amendment says about the limits the
people put on the government.Life has no value in America. Over
50,000,000 unborn babies were sacrificed by their mothers since 1976. Which
founding father would have ever even uttered the word "abortion"?This week the Boy Scouts voted to protect our sons and grandsons from
leaders whose idea of sexuality would have been abhorred by the founding
fathers.No change in values? It all depends on how much you think
"values" have slipped since this nation was founded.The
murder rate is a reflection of the lack of respect that people have for God and
for God's children.
@Mountainman.... you just keep up with your comic book version of the world....
where everything is nice and tidy... black and white.... good and evil.... .and
all problems only have one answer. Because surely no democrats went to war in
the middle east - only republicans. And only republicans pay taxes.... care
for their kids and go to church.It really amazes me that adults
have such closed minded views of the world. That they really think because
someone is a democrat that they hate god, don't love the country... less
alone hunt. It is mind numbing to think of such a simplistic view of the
world.There were two plans..... and only one offered freedom of
choice... freedom to choose the wrong answer.... and that is not the one that
mandates people live a particular lifestyle. It is so funny that paying taxes
is confused with lack of freedom. Those who choose to outlaw bad choices are
the ones against the Lords plan... those who would impose some version of
Christian sharia law.
Thank Gosh for the Federal Government protecting the rights of Atheists. I
haven't raped, killed, robbed. And, I follow the Speed Laws in our
communities and freeways. I'm really amused by how many suit and tie
wearing Sunday drivers speed by my house every week. Morality is not exclusive
How exactly was God taken out of your life? Are you not allowed to go to
church? Have the churches been turned into warehouses? Are you not allowed to
pray? Just because you don't get to force everyone to believe or worship
or even behave they way you want doesn't mean God was taken out of your
life. Speaking of founding values the founding fathers created a
separation between government and churches specifically to protect a diversity
of opinions that existed then. I'm sure some opinions, and I would guess
more than just atheism, seem Godless to you. However, it was a specific
principle of the founding fathers to protect a persons right to that opinion.
Nonsense. I didn't get a chance to know the founders any more than anyone
else alive today, but I suspect that they would ba appalled at the gun violence
of today. They were smart, educated men. The elites of their time, as it were.
I'm pretty sure that, had they been able to see the outcome, they would
have approached the second amendment differently. Not with religion or pining
for some mythical era past, but with real thought and action.
Nice try with this article but if you are a liberal, guns cause crime, matches
cause arson and super sized drinks cause obesity! No one is responsible for
their choices and we are all victims of an unjust society, not the consequences
of our own choices. Terrorist aren't really terrorists but "freedom
fighters". Abortion isn't killing unborn human beings its a choice and
a "constitutional right". Welfare dependency is compassion and the is no
God and therefore there is no right or wrong behavior and no one is accountable
for their behavior. Big, over reaching government is good, freedom is bad and
there is no tyranny. The perfect recipe for societal chaos! But that's
preferable to them than faith, self control, personal freedoms and self
government because for them its all about control and power! Who's plan was
that in the first place?
I agree that we need to focus on values. But I don't see how government has
taken God out of our lives.
This letter is the most correct of any to appear in this paper in a long time.
Indeed, the Obama administration's abandonment of the values of the
Founding Fathers is destroying this Country.The Founding Fathers
believed and established this Country on principles such as hard work, thrift,
and industry. The current left-wing government has abandoned these values and
replaced them with an entitlement mentality. Now, large segments of the
population sit around in their laziness and sloth expecting that their needs
will be taken care of by others.The Fathers knew that citizens must
be expected to provide for themselves, or disaster would be the inevitable
result. Those who subsist on welfare, rather than working, use their free time
to enage in crime, substance abuse, and immorality. These are the causes of
America's ills, not gun ownership.Rather than attacking guns,
we should attack the moral corruption that it being supported and promulgated by
left-wing governmental policies. This is what the Founding Fathers would want.
David, if God is missing from your life, or if you have lost your values, stop
blaming the government, gangs, the devil, or anyone other than the man in the
Our "founding fathers" that had as many different ideas about values as
there were "founding fathers" and no more spoke with one voice then we
do today, those "founding fathers?
The murder rate today is virtually the same as it was in 1960. That is before
the Supreme Court ruled that prayer in public schools was unconstitutional.