@ UltraBob"We are doomed by our inability to talk the same
language. You speak the language of Sales Tax and I am trying to speak Income
tax."Not so UltraBob. When you suggest that a business should
be "required to pay an amount equal to the flat rate on every outgoing
payment", you are not talking about an INCOME tax. I have been reading your
exchanges on this and other boards regarding taxes, and I believe the real
problem here is, although you seem to be really good person, you just do not
know what you're talking about in this area. It is the same as if I were to
continually suggest on these boards that we can cure cancer by replacing
everyone's blood with ketchup. Eventually a medical doctor (with some
training and medical knowledge) is going to chime in and try to correct me (as
Taxman tried to do on this board). And he and I probably will be speaking
different medical "languages", but only because I don't know what
I'm talking about.
This whole IRS investigations begs one question - why?Why were
converstive groups targeted more than liberal groups?I can only
assume their motives.Conservative groups tend to hate all dealings
with the Government, have more extreme views, want to wreck havoc on the
enviroment, put business ahead of people, rob and plunder other coutries for
cheaper resources, and threaten inserrection and the over-throw America.Liberal groups tend to want cleaner water and air, stop devestation of
forests and federal lands for oil, want to get out of foreign countries, and
push for Healthcare and equal rights and the general welfare of ALL citizens.
Taxman. We are doomed by our inability to talk the same language.
You speak the language of Sales Tax and I am trying to speak Income tax.
For a national sales tax t be fair, one of he things that would have to happen
first is to ensure companies are not allowed to pay corporate executives
hundreds of times more than the common workers. So long as this is the case, a
progressive income tax is right and proper.
re:MikeRichardscont'd#5 I do not think nor did I condone
wrongdoing. I believe Lois Lerner should be relieved of her duties at the IRS.
If there were employees who disregarded instruction by their superiors, they
should go too. This area of the tax code needs work and direction from
Treasury, and/or changes by Congress. #6 As has been said the items
which land on any Pres. desk are those which no one else can handle.
Obama's staff made the calculation that interference in an IG investigation
would by Obama would not be appropriate AT THAT TIME. #7 Every
corporation--including large churches--rely on layers of people to carry out
various functions. Sometimes things go awry. More often than not the
"problems" get taken care of--or ignored--by those on lower levels and
those at the top are unaware. Should we start holding pres. responsible for all
the foibles of those many layers below?--or responsible for divisions of
companies that don't even report to the president? What
matters is, now that the investigation is complete and Pres. Obama is aware of
what happened, what actions he takes.
re:MikeRichardsI realize this is going to be a futile exercise but here
goes:You could search the internet "IRS Inspector General
Report" and read the report yourself.#1 Sometime late in 2010,
IRS employees started using an "expanded" criteria which resulted in
more scrutiny of conservative applications. The IG report stated:
"Specifically, only first-line management approved references to the Tea
Party in the BOLO listing criteria before it was implemented. As a result,
inappropriate criteria remained in place for more than 18 months." In June
2011, the "Director" became aware of the expanded criteria and directed
the criteria to be changed. In Jan. 2012 the employees reverted back to the
"expanded" criteria. When discovered again, the Director required any
BOLO changes to be approved at the executive level. #2 The
Inspector General of the Treasury launched an investigation in June-July 2012
and notified the Chairman of the House Oversight Committee, R-Darrell Issa with
periodic updates. #3 WH staff became aware of the IRS investigation
in 4/2013 and didn't pass the information to Obama. The IG investigation
was not completed and released until 5/14/2013.
@UltraBobI guess the more important questions, UltraBob, are why
would any foreign buyer purchase a US built airplane (from Boeing, Lockheed
etc.) if it is going to cost so much more than the same plane sold by a foreign
vendor, and how are you going to force foreign buyers (with no U.S presence) to
collect and remit the tax to the United States when they buy form U.S.
@ UltraBobCongratulations, you have just put Boeing, Lockheed
Martin, and every other US manufacturer out of business by making foreign
manufactured goods cheaper than U.S. manufactured goods (by the amount of the
flat tax). In addition, you have destroyed the U.S. commercial banking business
by taxing (and thereby eliminating) overnight deposits from U.S. corporations.
This is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. So
you're saying, if I (and a group of investors) decide to start an small
airline and buy a few $1 billion airplanes from Boeing, we have to pay a tax
totaling $450 million (assuming a 15% tax rate) before we've even sold our
first ticket (but if we bought the same planes from Airbus we would pay zero)?
Truthseeker,If what you say is true, then that should seal
Obama's fate. Why did the Administration NOT correct errors caused by the
I.R.S. when it knew about since at least July 2012?Obama claimed
that he knew nothing about the I.R.S. violating the law, but you said that
Darrell Issa knew about the abuse since July 2012. Are you telling us that
Republicans were privy to I.R.S. abuses and that Democrats knew nothing about
those abuses? Are you telling us that Darrell Issa was the only person in
America who knew about that abuse? Are you telling us that no one inside the
I.R.S. knew that the I.R.S. was actively using its power against Republicans?
Are you telling us that using the acing director taking the 5th Amendment
against prosecution was justification for abusing the rights of Americans?What you said shows that Obama had better resign rather than face
I have a better idea...Dismantle the GOP.They
haven't had much interest in actually governing for at least a decade now.
Their party is already headed to the junk heap. Lets help them, shall we?
If you buy an investment from a bank the bank doesn’t sit on that money.
It is paid out to others as wages, dividends, return on investments, etc. Your
business would pay the flat rate on the money you give the bank. The bank would
pay the flat rate on their payouts. When you “lay down a
bid” you are buying something called a “right”, your business
would pay the flat rate on the money you pay out. We assume that the right has
the value that you pay for it. If your bid money is returned to you is of no
consequence to your business as income to the business is not taxed. If you
purchase the property your business would pay the flat rate on the purchase
price minus the bid money.If you buy an airplane from an American
business, your business would pay the flat rate on the amount paid. There is no
tax if purchased from a foreign business, you are free to buy and sell in the
foreign world as you please. If you sell the airplane, the purchaser must pay
the flat rate, because you are an American business.
Ahh, conservatives smell an opening and another chance to shift more capital to
Nice to see you back in the funny pages, Frank.
@ UltraBob"Every penny of outgoing money from a business is income to
somebody." This is patently false. If I transfer money to a bank as a
temporary investment of my working capital, the money transferred to the bank is
not income to anybody. If I lay down a bid (say $1 million) on the purchase of a
property, my deposit is not income to anybody (because if I am not the winning
bidder my money will be refunded). You would need a complicated system of rules
to prevent abuses and unintended consequences resulting from this type of tax
system.Let's say I buy one airplane for $1 billion from Airbus
(taking delivery in France) and your flat tax rate is 15%. Who ultimately
incurs the $150 million in flat tax and why should anyone pay $150 million in
tax when nobody is earning $150 million profit on the plane? What if I buy 10
planes? This type of tax system punishes capital transactions and this one
reason is why we don't see it in the world.
The proposal for a flat tax on every sort of income without exception and
without deduction in the best way to make support for the government fair and
honest. And easy to collect. Every penny of outgoing money from a
business is income to somebody. If the business was required to pay an amount
equal to the flat rate on every outgoing payment, then everyone is paying, the
owner, the supplier, the employee, and even the foreign worker and owner no
matter where they are. No more individual tax returns. No more tax year. The tax is paid to the government at the same time as paid
to the receiver. No more taxes on business income retained. Only
the outgoing money is taxed.
The retail sales tax is a terrible way to finance government. It is
not equally applied to products. It is applied to the retail price paid for the
product. Retail prices can vary greatly in the same town. The alternative to
allowing them to vary is called price fixing. It is not applied to
all consumption. Not to business, not to charity, not to used products, not to
most services, not to investments, not to speculation, not to capital gains, not
to inheritances, not to foreign products. Collecting the tax adds
cost to the product and not all the tax collected is remitted to the government.
Unscrupulous people use sales tax revenue to bribe government
employees by promises of relocation of the business or residence. There are probably even more and better reasons to not use Sales Tax for
Dismantle to GOP. They have had enough conspiracies and bad ideas to
fill many lifetimes. Dismantle them. It's not like they are proposing
anything anyway. They are merely just obstructing governing to make things hard
for the President.
A national sales tax alone will not raise enough revenue unless the rate is very
high (say 40%-ish). This is why most countries in the world have both an income
tax and a consumption tax (like a VAT or GST).
"This is not the time for "knee-jerk" reactions to the I.R.S.
scandal. Before taking drastic measures, we must first demand full accountablity
of those in the I.R.S. who have abused citizens of the United States."
Agreed. We probably disagree however in that it seems pretty clear by now what
top officials knew and when. However, while it appears even amongst many
Republicans that these officials didn't necessarily break the law they
certainly committed malfeasance in their jobs and should be held accountable.
What we don't know is who at the operational or ground level started this.
BTW, a number of liberal groups came under the same scrutiny as the conservative
groups. The other telling feature here is that none of the major conservative
or liberal players were targeted. So if it was a political tactic instigated
from the top of the administration it certainly didn't match the political
skills they demonstrated elsewhere in winning two general elections against all
This area of the tax code is long overdue for overhaul. The law states
501(c)(4) must EXCLUSIVELY be involved social welfare activites. But since the
1950's the Treasury regulations re-interpreted "exclusive" to mean
"primarily" which has come to mean up to 49.9% of activity conducted by
501(c) (4) can be political. The Citizens United decision has dramatically
increased the use of this statute for political means. The Citizens United
decision stated "the Government may regulate corporate political speech
through disclaimer and disclosure requirements," however 501 (c) (4)s have
provided a curtain of secrecy to the public knowing the sources supporting
various political agendas. Utahns and Conservatives may see no problem with
keeping large donors secret-- until/unless a hotly contested measure within UT
grabs national attention and large influxes of ads etc come flowing from outside
UT.The campaign finance system in the U.S. is eroding the
public's faith and trust in elections. At a minimum, disclosure should be
required of those injecting large amts into campaigns. Re:MikeRichardsYou do realize that R-Darrell Issa has known about
and been in contact with the investigators since July 2012.
Yeah, dismantle government! That's the real (and really simplistic) answer!
Why not just work constantly for honest and even handed government?
I suppose we should 'dismantle'; the Military for their
scandals,Congress [including Republicans] for their scandals, Utah
State AG John Swallow for his scandal, etc., etc.The IRS needs
to be tweeked, and the problems fixed -- not dismantled.
This is not the time for "knee-jerk" reactions to the I.R.S. scandal.
Before taking drastic measures, we must first demand full accountablity of those
in the I.R.S. who have abused citizens of the United States. We must demand
full accountability of the administration that allowed those abuses to continue
for more than a year. We must prosecute those who use the I.R.S. for political
purposes.After all who have participated in the I.R.S. scandal have
been prosecuted, then we should look at the tax system and change it so that our
economy can grow. I agree with Frank that we need a flat tax.
Whether that flat tax is levied via a national sales tax or whether it is levied
as a percentage of income doesn't matter to me, but, I would prefer a
national sales tax because that would encourage saving money instead of spending
money. Money in a savlngs account helps the economy grow when the bank lends
that money to grow businesses.
Sales tax? Yeah, give the rich tax cuts while increasing taxes on the poor and
middle class. That'll help us...Oh, and by the way...
someones' gotta collect that sales tax... and this changes absolutely
nothing with regards to the current situation anyway since switching from income
tax to sales tax doesnt stop the notion of tax exempt groups from existing.
"No longer will there be bitter disputes between the so-called one percent
and the rest of us."A national sales tax replacing income taxes
would be a huge tax increase for most Americans, and a huge cut for the 1%.