@worf --"A scout is morally clean.Sad day when
people can't understand this. No excuses."The LDS church
itself acknowledges that same-sex attraction is not a sin. Therefore,
homosexuals who say "Yes, I am homosexual" have also not sinned -- as
long as they are celibate. So it's very easy for someone to be an open
homosexual and still not have sinned in regards to sex.The loss of
moral cleanliness only enters the picture, according to the church's own
teachings, when homosexuals act on their attractions. And since **any**
extra-marital sex is a sin according to the church, then homosexuals are in the
very same boat as any other unmarried men when it comes to sinning about sex.It's perfectly possible for an openly gay man to be chaste. If your
own church says that constitutes is a sin-free life, then who are you to object?
A scout is morally clean.Sad day when people can't understand
this. No excuses.
I have been a Scoutmaster for over 20 years in the LDS church. I have had
numerous boys over the years who were gay. Since every young man in the church
participates in scouting, I have had many gay boys go on hikes and campouts. To
me, there is no change in the current program, I still include every boy
@cstott"I question whether a gay boy would even be interested in
Scouting. A gay boy looks at other boys like they are girls."I'm not even sure what you're trying to say... after all
there's something called the Girl Scouts so if you think gay boys would be
interested in activities that are popular with girls then you still end up with
scouting being unsurprising. Or do you think gay boys wouldn't
be interested in scouting because of thinking guys have cooties?
@cstott --"I question whether a gay boy would even be interested
in Scouting."Why? Gay boys and men participate in all sorts of
traditionally "macho" activities. There are gay policemen, gay
firefighters, gay pro-athletes, gay soldiers, you name it. Why not scouting?"A gay boy looks at other boys like they are girls. Now reverse it.
Would you allow a boy to sleep with your daughter at that age?"If she were a lesbian, sure. The biggest issue with a boy and a
girl sleeping together is that they are usually attracted **to each other**. But
there isn't much danger of one boy forcibly attacking another one in a tent
surrounded by a bunch of other tents in a campground, even supposing that the
gay boy *wanted* to (which is very unlikely). It might be a mistake to house two
gay boys together -- that's when you'd be at risk of hanky-panky --
but I wouldn't worry about the safety of a straight kid housed with a gay
kid. Remember, being gay doesn't make you a predator!
I question whether a gay boy would even be interested in Scouting. A gay boy
looks at other boys like they are girls. Now reverse it. Would you allow a boy
to sleep with your daughter at that age?
Does anyone really believe that the BSA hasn't surveyed the major money
people (including the LDS Church) and knows if they have their support or not?
As has been stated, the Church is much more liberal on this issue than the BSA.
Re: ". . . how exactly is threatening to cut ties any less bullying . . .
."Bullying? Liberals define bullying as pulling out of an
organization that's trying to force you to violate your religious
beliefs?That's some pretty fancy sophistry.Clearly
disingenuous, but fancy.
@Obama10 --From wikipedia:"Homosexual people are not
restricted from membership or leadership positions in Scouts Canada, the
Baden-Powell Service Association in the United States, Scouts Australia, and
most European associations, including The Scout Association of the United
Kingdom, Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände of Germany (German Scout
Federation), and the Swedish Guide and Scout Association."It
looks like the BSA is unique, or nearly unique, in its restrictive policy.
sorry that was suppose to read, either follow my religious dictates... not
follow you religous dictates.
@redwings You claim it is different please explain how withdrawing funding
and participation after decades (the LDS church is different from pulling
funding and support after months? either way you are pulling support and
funding. @freedom"A true friend doesn’t ask us to choose
between the gospel and his or her friendship." yet you are fine with telling
the BSA either you follow you religious dictates or I will no longer be your
"friend."The only difference in both your cases is you believe
your views are right and everyone else is wrong and evil.
Since the Boy Scouts are a worldwide organization, does anyone know what the
policy is regarding gay youths and leaders in other countries?
The Gay community will not be satisfied with this policy. The push is already
on for the inclusion of gay leaders. BSA has become a political lightning rod
and will remain so for some time. I still believe it would be wise for
the LDS Church to establish their own program for youth. It could then have a
policy congruent with the teachings of the Church for how the youth and leaders
" . . whether a private organization can exclude members of its
choosing."When did this even become a question? No-one, to my
knowledge, has seriously proposed the BSA be forced by the government into
accepting gay scouts or leaders. They're being pushed to do so by,
basically, the free market. I am firmly on the side of lifting the foolish ban
(someone's orientation shouldn't even be anyone's concern), but
if the BSA were being legally forced by the government to change its policies, I
would object.Just like a private country club should be able exclude
non-whites if it chooses, the BSA can exclude who it chooses. That does not
allow it to escape the resulting criticism or stinging verbal backlash.
I detect a gestapo mentality in the gay community ('we will hunt you down
until every last one of you admit that you are bigots.'). The very thing
that caused them pain,they are doing. the naive who tolerate evil will assume
that this is all just about being more accepting. Every thing that is good,
every right that is God-given, is on trial here in America. The criticism
(those who disagree are bigots)and the subterfuge (we just want to be accepted)
will continue until conscience is eventually extinguished, and God is eliminated
from every aspect of public and private life. It is no wonder the national
media is fading into insignificance. Being 'politically correct' just
doesn't cut it for those who want to hear both sides of an issue, including
whether a private organization can exclude members of its choosing. Why would
anyway want to belong to an organization that he/she believes is bigoted anyway?
To paraphrase a previous post - "Hypocritical and dangerous" - yep -
just like every other bad example the adult community sets from time to time.
Remember - standards apply to ALL not just gay people.
Exactly WHEN does one become gay?? Anyone?
It blows my mind that people think "morally straight" means
"heterosexual." The oath was written long before we started
distinguishing heterosexuals as "straight." Straight merely means
chaste, and has nothing to do with orientation. In other words, a gay man can
be straight, so long as he's not sexually promiscuous. Likewise, a
heterosexual is not straight if they're having a bunch of one-night stands.
So as to clear up any confusion, it even says "morally" straight. The
exact definition of that depends on one's religious beliefs. In the LDS
Church, one cannot be a gay married man and be morally straight, because the LDS
Church deems homosexuality a sin. In the Methodist Church, however, where
scouts are also sponsored, there is no such distinction. Likewise, doing your
duty to God in the LDS faith requires tithing, in other religions it
How does anyone know what the boy's "sexual orientation" is, if the
boy hasn't had any?
Tolstoy and ace:Back then I could not have imagined how far and how
fast the world would move away from God; it was impossible to understand that,
given doctrine, principles, and commandments. And yet the standards of Christ
and His Church have not moved. As He said, “The truth abideth forever and
ever.”5 When we understand and accept this, we are prepared to face the
social pressure, ridicule, and even discrimination that will come from the world
and some who call themselves friends.Most of us know someone who
would say, “If you want to be my friend, you’ll have to accept my
values.” A true friend doesn’t ask us to choose between the gospel
and his or her friendship. To borrow the words of Paul, “From such turn
away.”6 A true friend strengthens us to stay on the strait and narrow
path.Robert Hales April 2013 conference.
NO more BSA?? Means friends of scouting drives!!! WoohooHope LDS
Church drops scouting and start doing their own thing.
@Tolstoy: "funny that you both believe that the LDS church should cut
ties, how exactly is threatening to cut ties any less bullying then when those
that support gay rights threatened to or cut of funding when the BSA would not
allow gays in the scouts?"It's one thing to "cut
ties" after a decision has been made. It is quite another one to threaten
to pull funding unless apolicy is changed. Corporations, etc have bullied the
BSA into this policy change. It is likely that the churches will simply leave
and develop their own boys programs consistent with their values (The LDS Church
already has one that is used outside the USA). There is nothing wrong with them
doing this - we all have free speech and freedom to worship how we choose.I left the Democratic Party because "tolerance" only matters for
those the party agrees with. I do not hear any Democratic Party leader
stressing tolerance for my views on gay marriage and homosexuality, which are
wholly in line with LDS doctrine on these issues.
I hate half-measures. Either keep things the way they are or just give up a
fight that is basically over and stop discriminating altogether. Saying
"well, we're kinda going to stop discriminating a little bit" is
weak. Maybe we could let gay men become 2/3 of a scoutmaster!When
did scouting become about sex in the first place? This whole discussion is the
epitome of "much ado about nothing." The morality police are once again
being stirred up by their own bizarre faulty assumptions about the scary scary
homosexuals. There is zero rational reson to believe abuse will increase by
allowing gay scouts or scoutmasters.Many of you are already laying
blame in the BSA for committing financial suicide. If your most dire predictions
come true, it won't be suicide; it'll be murder. To withdraw support
from a venerable organization that's done so much good because of something
so inconsequential is tragic. Thankfully, in a generation or two your kind will
fade away and become relegated to the fringes where you belong.
Why are some people in this State so clueless? There is a lot more to morality
than what one dose in the bedroom. I have known very religious people who would
never think of cheating on their spouse more or less participate in non
traditional sexual activity within their marriage who were very immoral.
Cheating on taxes, racism, un-acceptance of others, gossiping, breaking the any
law among many things other than sex are all issues of morality.With
that being said I would think that placing a young gay male with other males in
camping situations is what would bother every body. Kids at that age
"experiment" weather gay or straight and they have a way of convincing
their peers to "Check It Out" so to speak. If I had it my way this
would not be an issue all would be allowed in Scouting. If your afraid of your
child turning gay and since I have to choose I would rather an adult Gay Male in
a different tent be present rather than the alternative. What goes on in that
tent is of no concern to me.
one poster said: Most boys have not sorted out tendencies for same sex
attraction at Boy Scout age and do not pose a threat to their peers and remain
teachable by their families and leaders.Thats what I thought upon
reading this headline. I believe the Church has always welcomed all YM and
YW into any of its Youth programs, members or not, hetero or not (or not sure)
who are willing to abide by the established and well-known codes of conduct for
those groups, camps, conferences, programs etc. Now the Scouts will
do the same for the boys-- and the Church will likely agree to that. I believe
the Church would/will, on an individual basis, also welcome all male leader
members who are chaste and honest with the other leaders and keeping the
commandments.I believe the Church has and will continue to find a
place for all boys and all men who want to be associated with Scouting and who
are willing to live by the rules of chaste conduct required by the Scout oath.
One careful step at a time is fine. Because this decision will be affecting
people for years to come, the need to step back, breathe, analyze it, and then
carry out the best possible act for those that have same-gender attraction is
the right course to do. I am all for an open dialogue, but keeping it
civil and to the direct point is the reason why many are fearful of having gay
leaders involved. No leader is supposed to have any discussions regarding sexual
topics. That's against the moral code.
utahbluedevilName of OrganizationTotal UnitsTotal YouthThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints*37,856430,557United Methodist Church*10,868363,876Catholic Church *8,397273,648Presbyterian Church *3,597125,523Lutheran Church *3,827116,417Baptist Churches3,981108,353Episcopal Church *1,17941,407United Church of
Christ, Congregational Church1,19138,225Christian Church
(Disciples of Christ)1,16533,941Community Churches1,05432,311Church of Christ*54615,430Evangelical/independent churches2947,899Church of God2375,241Church of the Nazarene1564,181Reformed
Church in America1274,077Jewish synagogues and centers*1563,738Church of the Brethren1012,759African
Methodist Episcopal*1492,416The Salvation Army1302,233Islam, Muslim, Masjid*782,222Assemblies of
God*912,193Christian Methodist Episcopal Church951,970Community of Christ611,899Pentecostal Churches1071,830Other churches
One thing that has been overlooked is that the ban has been on "OPEN and
AVOWED" homosexuals as both youth members and adult leaders. That means
that boys who feel attraction to other males have always been allowed to
participate in Scouting as long as they do not act on those feelings in a way
that is OPEN to public view. The "morally clean" clause of the Boy
Scout Oath pertains to thoughts and feelings, yes, but more so to actions. How
many of us are truly 100% morally clean in our thoughts (let him who is without
sin cast the first stone)? But if we are in total control of our actions, we
are counted worthy, at least in the LDS Church, for callings and temple
attendance.Boys join the Cub Scouts at 7 or 8 years old and the Boy
Scouts at age 11. If they are feeling strong sexual feelings at those early
ages, it is probably because they have already had some tragic and abusive
experience(s) that have prematurely sexualized them. If they have been
sufficiently traumatized in that way, it is somewhat likely that they will take
advantage of Scouting situations to abuse others.
I think "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is an appropriate policy for
the boys. As for the leaders...yeah, I think we still ought to be very cautious
who becomes a boy scout leader. I honestly think a background check would be
wise, heterosexual, homosexual, or whatever, and it would put parents'
minds at ease (teachers have to get background checks, so I think it makes
Hypocritical and dangerous to allow boys but not leaders to participate in
certain behaviors. BSA should worry, this won't go well for them.
I am good with this decision. The biggest concern was allowing homosexual
leaders, that have a huge influence on the boys, to be included. This resolves
that issue. What the actual boy scout members do with regards to sexual
preference is not really the concern of the scouting organization. That is up
to families and church affiliation. The big question now is on how the scouting
program deals with individuals who are not being morally straight (doesn't
matter if it is a homosexual or heterosexual relationship). Are they refused
rank advancements? Are they allowed to continue to participate? In the LDS
Church, does the Bishop disfellowship them from scouting and youth activities?
In my experience, scouting has never really enforced the morally straight
requirement anyway. That was left up to ecclesiastical leaders. I don't
know if anything will change.
Please lift the ban.An organization of members who are inclusive is
what America should be about.
I think those saying the "demise" of the BSA and that the LDS church
will immediately drop the BSA are being a little premature. I could see this
going either way. The LDS church has become much more "gay friendly"
the past couple of years, even publishing a whole website on the issue. The LDS
church has supported the non-discrimination act for housing and employment in
SLC. There is a gay member in a Bishopric in San Francisco. I could very well
see the LDS church still supporting the BSA. My only question where I think
there will be problems down the road are if you have a gay boy in Scouts and
loves his experience and wants to pass that along as a leader, how do you tell
him "no". That will be the next issue. This issue is not going away.
If the church does drop the BSA, they will just revise the Duty to God program
which I believe was already put into place if the BSA lost the Supreme Court
case from a few years ago. That now looks like a waste of money.
BSA membership has been in steady, large decline for years. If the BSA
doesn't adapt they'll be nothing but a fringe Boy's club run by
religous groups. As was the similar case of civil rights in the 60's with
America's youth, today's younger generation does not hold the
homophobic views of their parents. Their values are based more on reason than
I understand the political concern regarding same-sex issues, but the scout oath
relates: "On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty, to god and my
country, to obey the scout law, to keep myself morally clean and morally
straight"."Clean and morally straight" has been taught
since the inception of scouting to mean clean thoughts, and not particpate in
sexual activity until marriage? I am looking at a library of handbooks, letters
from family members who were actual full-time profesisonal leaders, and brother
who lost his life in an event to honor eagle scouts,who was a profesional
scouting representative in the Old Cache Valley Council. This entire decision
process is improper, even the US Supreme Court has held that private entities
may have organizations that teach their own moral conduct?
@hubbardesquireI suppose that is one way to try to frame it the other way
would be that the boy scouts are finally going to standup against the old guard
that has controlled them for too long through the pocketbook and do the right
thing, even if it means losing funding from the churches.
What LDS Church do the rest of you belong to? The Church doesn't ban gay
people from being members, so why would the BSA allowing gay kids to be scouts
suddenly spell the doom of the organization? The Church's current policy is
more tolerant than the current BSA policy and the new BSA policy will be
completely in line with the Church's policy. The change says no scout will
be banned "on the basis of sexual orientation ALONE" -- that means that,
without more, a scout won't be kicked out simply for being gay. Just as no
Church member would ever be kicked out of the church on the basis of sexual
orientation ALONE. Let's at least pretend to think these things through
Apparently, the Boy Scouts are more afraid of a few, or they want to placate a
few, and are willing to lose a lot. Almost, all churches in the Southeast United
States will no longer sponsor Scouting if they allow gays in. Also, there will
almost immediately be a federal lawsuit filed if they allow gays in as members
but exclude gays as leaders. So, it looks like the Boy Scouts would prefer to
have the gays rather than the churches. Good luck with that brilliant strategy.
It seems most on this board care very little about the individual and
haven't taken even a minute to think through the issues. First, to be
clear, they are only lifting their ban on gay scouts, not on gay leaders. This
in fact changes very little. You ask why? Because gay scouts have been in
scouting from the beginning, they just haven't told those around them. And
when they have told somebody, like their bishop, they were still in scouting.
The difference now is, particularly for those of you who think a gay youth has
the ability to change, any gay scouts can feel comfortable in talking to
counselors and bishops about their "problem" with fear of being forced
out of organizations like scouting. It's a win-win for both, those who
want to "cure" gays and those who support equal treatment.I
personally don't know how in this day and age an organization can justify
excluding somebody because of the way they are born (or for those who you who
still insist - became through no fault of their own).I assume the
church will continue to back scouting stronger than ever.
"And become comfortable with irrelevance."Perhaps in Utah...
but Utah isn't even 1% of the US population. I think we may be overstating
things just a smidge.I do hope that there is some kind of common
sense here. We don't ban kids from church who have same sex attraction..
How in the world do you propose to help these kids deal with the issues of this
if you cast them off. Would we do the same for kids who have issues with
drinking, making moral mistakes with young ladies... etc.I think the
leadership of the church is bright enough to find the right, measured response
to this. Nothing is ever forever. My grandfather brought scouting to this
church... and there is no doubt the church leadership will find the next right
and balanced thing for the church moving foreword. Will it make everyone
happy... I doubt it. But leadership has to do the right thing for all of the
church, not just the loudest critics.And I really doubt Boy Scouts
regardless will be any more irrelevant than it is now.
Seems agreeable with me also in as much as this has always been the way an LDS
scout troop has run during my sixty plus years of leadership experience as an
LDS scout leader. Most boys have not sorted out tendencies for same sex
attraction at Boy Scout age and do not pose a threat to their peers and remain
teachable by their families and leaders. Adult Gay leadership has
always been a source of concern and trouble.If this becomes an accepted practice
in the Boy Scouts of Americ, I knowa the progrtam will go down the drain, and
what a loss that would be for all.
Excuse me. Scout Oath.
@freedom and procurfunny that you both believe that the LDS church should
cut ties, how exactly is threatening to cut ties any less bullying then when
those that support gay rights threatened to or cut of funding when the BSA would
not allow gays in the scouts?
That's fine, since even though they might identify themselves as gay, many
at that age aren't going to actively be gay and they would still be
expected to live a chaste lifestyle like the other scouts. but no gay leaders.
Overall scouting participation has been waning in this generation, now it will
lose the support of large religious groups that have sustained it this long.
What a shame - such a great organization will completely change and may all but
disappear. A new program will be coming from the LDS church if this in fact
Up front I admit my ignorance on the proposal by the BSA, but my question is if
they allow practicing gays into scouting, do they plan on keeping "morally
straight" in the Scout Motto? Perhaps they are limiting it to those with
homosexual attraction, but not practicing??Anyone know?
Well, it's been a good, mutually beneficial relationship for a good long
time. Scouting is what it is today, particularly in the West, largely because of
its relationship with the Church. Most of its Western recreational properties
were donated by the Church. Most of its Western units are Church units. Most of
its revenues come from Church members.But now, for political
reasons, Scout leaders have decided to betray, not just their oath, but their
friends, as well. OK. It's their right. But they can't realistically
expect to maintain a relationship with the Church.It'll be
interesting to see what Church youth program follows scouting. It'll
probably look a lot like scouting. We'll be fine.But Scouting?
Not so much. They're already "consolidating" properties -- meaning
selling off smaller, less profitable ones, directing units to larger, more
distant camps. Maybe they can convert their operation into a corporate sales
organization, like Girl Scouts. That may cover some of the revenue collapse, but
they're clearly going to have to get by on less.And become
comfortable with irrelevance.
good bye bsa from the biggest two groups of participants, lds and catholic. hope
gays can backfill the revenue plunge.
This could be agreeable by me. If those with homosexual attraction are allowed
into Scouts by the BSA, the BSA must be sure to enforce their policy on gays who
act out in any way on their homosexual urges. Any infraction must mean removal
from scouting, so as to allow the Boy Scout Oath of being "morally
straight" to ring true.