No place for scare tactics in immigration debate

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  • SLars Provo, UT
    April 2, 2013 1:58 p.m.

    John; The Urban institute study is for legal immigrants. The Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco is for legal immigrants, and the numbers are 0.6-0.9% not 10x higher as you quoted.

    April 2, 2013 1:21 p.m.


    Try quoting a study for illegal aliens, not one that lumps the legal and illegal together. For the record, only 3% start a new business, 80% are out of business in the first year. Compare to citizens that last 5 years before the 80% fail.

    Studies that combine legal immigrants and illegal aliens are not believable. Their are plenty of studies by the US government that show how badly Americans are hurt by illegal aliens.

    Our fertility rate drops during recessions. It will rise when it ends. We let in over a million green cards each year. We don't need people here illegally.

    Until our government gets their visa program under control, and starts enforcing the laws, the only change we need is to stop giving visas. We have enough here illegally to fill the jobs.

    40% of those here illegally overstayed their visa, including the 911 terrorists.

  • John C. C. Payson, UT
    April 2, 2013 12:19 p.m.

    @Fitness Freak,

    Studies on jobs include:

    The Urban Institute (Immigration and Immigrants: Setting the Record Straight), which states, "Immigrants generate more jobs than they take. Native job loss to immigrants is limited to labor markets where the economy is slack and immigrants are concentrated."

    Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco (The effect of Immigrants on U.S. Employment and Productivity), which states “ immigration to the United States from 1990 to 2007 was associated with a 6.6% to 9.9% increase in real income per worker.”

    Studies on remittances include:

    Social Science Research Council (Migrants’ Remittances and Development)

    Immigration Policy Center (Many Happy Returns: Remittances and their Impact)

    The above two explain how much of their remittance money ends up buying U.S. goods and services. If workers work and pay taxes here, it's better than outsourcing to a foreign country. With sufficient labor, our companies are more productive, helping reduce our trade deficit. A good share of that remittance money DOES come back to the U.S. and stimulate our economy.

    Besides, we need more people. The fertility rate of our native-born population is now below replacement level.

  • WestGranger West Valley City, Utah
    April 1, 2013 11:18 p.m.

    How could the authors say that there is no need to secure the border when there are an estimated 11 million undocumented people here? The existence of a certain amount of "tall tales" concerning problems on the borders is no indication that the problems with violence are not well documented and quite significant. 50 thousand deaths across our southern border is much more a war zone than even Baghdad. The flow of undocumented aliens is still very high. Securing the border is an essential step in fixing our broken immigration system in a way that is compassionate yet at the same time truly effective and lasting.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    April 1, 2013 12:15 p.m.

    Does anybody else think that 51,517 people getting through just one section of the border is bad? Does the government realize that there is more at risk than just American jobs?

    This is a national security problem. The border patrols are reporting that they are finding more illegals trying to cross the border that are from the Middle East, and some have strong ties to terrorist organizations.

    Is it me, or is having a pourous border that allows terrorists to cross it a bad thing?

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    April 1, 2013 9:20 a.m.

    re: "John c.c." In a word BALONEY!

    What studies?

    Are they increasing consumer spending when I see them waiting at Wal-Mart to send money home?

    Tell the fact that "they don't take jobs" to roofers, drywallers, laborers, who have LOST their jobs to contractors who can undercut wages down to as low as $5.00 per hr. While at the same time paying absolutely no employers' taxes on them.
    BTW - those jobs Americans "won't do" - I did; until I graduated college. I earned minimum wage. The employers you're referring to won't even pay that.

    Do you think there should be NO labor or regulatory protections whatsoever? Why can't we bring Drs. here? They are doing medical procedures in Mexico for one-tenth the cost of U.S. Drs.

    How can illegal trespassers possibly be raising wages while they are undercutting them? Thats' extremely nonsensical on its face.

    BTW- studies done by "La Raza" don't count for much validity!

  • John C. C. Payson, UT
    April 1, 2013 8:06 a.m.

    @Fitness Freak and RRB,

    You have it backwards. Immigrant workers, even undocumented ones, raise the average wages of local citizens. Studies show they are more likely than our local citizens to start their own businesses and hire more workers. They and their families increase consumer spending, and cause their employers to hire more local workers to supervise and handle the overhead tasks of having more employees. But mostly, immigrant workers don't take the same jobs as local citizens. The only wages of local citizens that tend to drop under increased numbers of guest workers are those of unskilled laborers without a high school education. You see, guest workers work harder and for less pay than our own citizens in those jobs.

    Are you afraid because you can't compete? Where's your American ethic of hard work and fair, open market competition?

    I understand your resentment of U.S. employers who take advantage of undocumented guest workers. The best way to remove this abusive practice is to allow the workers to come legally.

  • John C. C. Payson, UT
    April 1, 2013 7:48 a.m.


    The only reason all of our forefathers who built this nation immigrated here legally is because there were NO LAWS LIMITING IMMIGRATION prior to our anti-Chinese hysteria of the late 1800's. The Constitution of the United States only laid out how those who came here might be naturalized.

    Let's go back to the Constitutional standards that made our country great.

    March 31, 2013 7:39 p.m.

    2011 (numbers not released for 2012 yet) we let in 3.2 million on work visas, plus one 1.1 million green cards.

    With over 23 million Americans looking for full time work, I think that is to many.

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    March 31, 2013 5:25 p.m.

    A lot of the reason wages stay depressed is the constant flow of cheap illegal labor.

    Last year alone, U.S. business spent 1.5billion on lobbying efforts for the sole purpose of maintaining the "status quo" (or at least guarantee no enforcement)regarding illegal immigration.

    Businesses are making out like "bandits". Unfortunately the unemployed/underemployed are the victims. As are all the rest of us who "pick up the tab" for the social costs of illegal trespassers.

    First time I've agreed with "real maverick", I think.

    The various political parties try to make illegal trespassing a "political football" in the hopes that illegal/unethical employers can continue with what they've been doing all along.

    Since when did law enforcement become political?

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    March 31, 2013 1:39 p.m.

    Laws won't stop bad people from coming here illegally.

    It's weird how the pro gun crazies don't think that laws or regulations have any effect on gun ownership yet are the first when it comes to making additional laws and regulations on other issues. Consistency is what he right lacks the most!

    I say cut and get rid of the bloat. Make it easier to come here and gain ownership. Give out work visas!

    The only additional regulations and laws I'd support would be to punish those who employ illegally. Why in this whole discussion does the right always "forget" to punish businesses!?

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    March 31, 2013 11:43 a.m.

    Ahhh immigration...the drug runners, dealers, drug runners run by the cartels....


    No problem with the U.S. gun dealers arming the cartels...

    An average of 253,000 weapons purchased in the United States head south of the border each year, according to the study by four scholars at the University of San Diego’s Trans-Border Institute and the Igarape Institute, a research center in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
    The authors said a series of factors – such as sales from gun shows and private dealers – made their estimates, if anything, low.

    Of the 51,300 retail gun shops in the United States that hold federal licenses, some 6,700 of them are concentrated in the four US states that border Mexico, Muggah said. On average, there are more than three gun dealers for every mile of the 1,970-mile border between the countries.

    “The vast majority of deaths arising from violence in Mexico are from .38s or that caliber of handgun,” Muggah said. “It just so happens that the largest market for .38 Specials is the United States.”
    (Christian Science Monitor, 2013)

    March 31, 2013 8:17 a.m.

    Home land security reports the Rio Grande Valley saw 100,000 arrests last year. In the Del Rio sector it was the same 100,000 arrests. That shows their source as questionable. If 200,000 were arrested in two sectors, think how many made it past.

    Utah has shut down drug runners, dealers, and identity mills run by the drug cartels. Their crimes are "spilling over" into American streets.

    Reuters poll says the majority want them deported. The laws say they should be. There is no statute of limitations on being here illegally. Now would be a good time for business and some of our government to change their illegal and evil ways. To have respect for our countries legal immigrants, our poor, our middle class, all the taxpayers, and the victims of their dishonesty. God said to love another, and they are showing a lack of it to everyone but the business owners that commit felonies by hiring people here illegally.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    March 31, 2013 6:19 a.m.

    Who's more credible? Cornyn? Or people who cunningly obfuscate their amnesty/legalization agenda behind euphemisms such as, "meaningful immigration reform," and, "comprehensive immigration reform?" These people know they are in the wrong -- and they know that most America knows it too. No wonder the obfuscatory euphemisms.

    And Obama's people already have admitted that they count border turnarounds as deportations. Of course this is a form of "fixing the books" in order to squelch those annoying "extremist" Americans who demand that the law actually be enforced equitably, the same for everyone, instead of giving one group a pass but making another group pay for the sins of the first group. Equality at the law is the right thing to do, the fiscally responsible thing to do, the humanitarian thing to do; and, based on history, the Constitution, and the rule of law necessarily associated with it, the history of the country -- wherein people immigrated LEGALLY -- also is the American thing to do.