@Badger55"I'm talking about people that profess being
heterosexual then changing their minds and visa versa."Again --
changing one's behavior (as with straight men in prison) doesn't mean
that inherent desire has changed. And, yes, society forces people to do a lot of
things that they wouldn't desire to do otherwise."The
problem you have with measuring the difference between adult homosexuals and
adult heterosexuals is there is no way to gauge how they were at birth."Unless you can prove that learning is capable of physically changing
structures within the brain, my point stands."Do some research
on studies."The only recent study I know of that supposedly
found a disadvantage to being raised by gays or lesbians was a joke -- which is
why I asked you for studies you knew of. In that study, the researcher took
children raised by lesbian or gay parents -- MANY OR MOST OF WHOM WERE DIVORCED
AND/OR SINGLE PARENTS -- and compared them to STABLE MARRIED COUPLES. Well,
duhhhh, no surprise, children of divorce and single parenting very often DO
perform worse than those in stable families. That has nothing to do with
No doubt she sees the gay vote as HUGE for her run for President. She would
sell her own mother if you ask me.
@Contrarius"Nobody is born as a polygamist."Actually monogamy is NOT a normal genetic male construct (but one created by
the taming influence of religion and social mores.) Polygamy is the norm
for many mammals (and other animals groups).Polygamy has far more
religious, sociological and historical precedent than gay marriage can ever
claim to haveNobody is born gay married either – so the point is not
merely moot – it is silly
amazondoc"Sexual orientation is different than sexual
behavior."I'm talking about people that profess being
heterosexual then changing their minds and visa versa. Not getting raped or one
night stands. How do you explain people that openly admit to being homosexual,
then change their minds later in life? Society forced them? not a very good
reason.The problem you have with measuring the difference between
adult homosexuals and adult heterosexuals is there is no way to gauge how they
were at birth. Unless you can look at those same individuals at birth and
compare their brains. which is impossible.Do some research on studies.
this forum wont allow links posted. at least it wont let me. Like you say,
gender orientation is very complex. There are so many variables that contribute
to human behavior it is nearly impossible to say certain people are born
thinking one way or another. Unless, you can eliminate every variable, which you
can't. The best people can do is guess.If you disagree, then
by your logic scientists could look at a newborns brain and determine whether
they are going to be gay or not. Truth is, they can't.
@Badger55 --"Studies are out there on both sides of the
debate."There's a difference between sociological studies
-- soft science -- and studies that find actual physical differences -- hard
science. Physical differences are concrete and measurable, not fuzzy or open to
much interpretation."Studies are out there that show being
raised by homosexual parents leaves a far more negative effect on their
children."Where?? Name them."how do you explain
the fact that people switch from being homosexual to heterosexual and visa
versa?"Sexual orientation is different than sexual behavior.
Straight men may have sex with other men -- like in prisons -- but that
doesn't mean they have become gay. Similarly, homosexual men may have sex
with women, if society forces it upon them. That doesn't mean those gay men
have suddenly become straight. Their orientation (inherent desire) remains the
same."Yes, I know there have been cases where babies are born
with both organs."Gender identity and sexual orientation are
much more complex and subtle phenomena than whether or not certain organs are
present. Hormones, brain structures, and so on are all components of the
processes determining identity and orientation. These are biological phenomena,
not learned behaviors.
It is a choice IMO. Studies are out there on both sides of the debate. So,
claiming the validity of a subject because of a study or studies when there are
also studies claiming the opposite, doesn't work. Give it 10 years,
something will change. Studies are out there that show being raised by
homosexual parents leaves a far more negative effect on their children. Studies
are out that say it doesn't. It creates quite the conundrum and leaves me
to believe there is not enough evidence to show a definitive answer. If it is not a choice and people are born homosexual, how do you explain the
fact that people switch from being homosexual to heterosexual and visa versa?
Simple, they choose to.Skin color and gender you are born with.
yes, I know there have been cases where babies are born with both organs. There
are also babies born without/with extra: arms, legs etc. But, that is an
abnormality(meaning not normal) and you can't use examples like those for
Darwinism and evolution as you cannot use the dual organ argument. Unless all
homosexuals were born with both organs. Which they aren't
amazondoc--our school teaching philosophies are ran by studies, yet more then
half our population are on welfare. The studies are wrong, and not facts.Studies show us having global warming. Nope! So now it's climate
change.Studies of gays being born that way? Can't buy it.
Believe what you want.
@worf --"@Contrarius--that may be true in rare cases. I
don't always believe in studies. I maintain the majority is learned
behavior for whatever reason."You can deny facts just as much as
you like -- but that will never actually change the facts. And the fact is that
there are physical differences, including differences in brain structure,
between gay and homosexual men.(btw -- both Contrarius and Amazondoc
are me. I tried to post an explanatory message last night, but it seems to have
been lost in the ether. I created a second account when the DN web site was
acting up over the last couple of days. So please don't be confused,
they're both me!)
@Contrarius--that may be true in rare cases. I don't always believe in
studies. I maintain the majority is learned behavior for whatever reason.
@lost --"gays are not now prevented from marrying, whether one
believes they are born gay or not."You're missing the point
here.A woman is already allowed to marry a man. But a man is NOT
allowed to marry a man. And that is a violation of the Equal Protections clause
of the US Constitution. The woman is already allowed a legal privilege (marrying
a man) that the man is denied. That's discrimination by gender -- and
gender discrimination is unconstitutional."just like polygamists
and polyandries."Nope, not just like polygamists (the word
"polygamy", btw, covers both multiple men and multiple women. If you
want to specify multiple women, it's "polygyny". Multiple men is
"polyandry".)"So if hillary is calling for gays to be
able to marry who they want, why is she still being bigoted against polygamists
and polyandries by not calling for them to be allowed to marry who they
want?"As I pointed out already, polygamists are not born -- they
learn to be polygamists as they grow up. Homosexuals, however, are born.
Therefore, legal protections for polygamists are very different than legal
protections for homosexuals.
contrariusgays are not now prevented from marrying, whether one
believes they are born gay or not. They may be prevented from marrying who they
want, just like polygamists and polyandries. So if hillary is calling for gays
to be able to marry who they want, why is she still being bigoted against
polygamists and polyandries by not calling for them to be allowed to marry who
they want?nice attempt at obfuscation, though.
@worf --"People are not born gay anymore then speaking German.
It's learned."The scientific evidence is against you.
Multiple studies have proven that the hypothalamus and other brain structures
are measurably different between gay and straight men. And recent studies have
also proven that human observers actually can tell "gay" faces apart
from "straight" faces with a pretty high level of accuracy just by
looking at them, even if they are only allowed to look for a fraction of a
second.These are physical -- inborn -- differences, not learned
ones.Look up studies by Simon LeVay, Eric Vilain, Ivanka
Savic-Berglund, and Nicholas Rule for some examples of research in these areas.
People are not born gay anymore then speaking German. It's learned.May not remember how it started, but you're not born that way.
@lost --Nobody is born as a polygamist. In contrast, people are born
as homosexuals -- or minority races -- or women -- every day. So the issues are
Ophelia,did hillary come out in support of the civil rights of
polygamists? polyandries? Or is she still being bigoted like everyone else
concerning multiple partner arrangements?
What a surprise.
Just read new reliable ABC/Washington Post poll numbers, and I'm thrilled
that people everywhere are changing and evolving on this issue. I'm
especially thankful for the open-minded tolerance of youth. According to poll
numbers 81% of young people under 30 support same-sex marriage! That's
wonderful! Overall 58% of Americans support same-sex marriage.Thank
you, Hillary Clinton, for your support in this important civil rights issue, and
thanks also goes to Republican Senator, Rob Portmanm as he takes a political
gamble on behalf of his gay son and LGBT citizens everywhere.