American values

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  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    March 5, 2013 8:00 a.m.

    @mark "...racism..."

    When accusations of racism appear out of the blue in a discussion about something else, I can only conclude that the accuser is more conscious of race than he should be. Either that, or he has run out of arguments, and is trying to shut down the debate.

    @mark "There is nothing new there."

    Abuse of power is as old as civilization, and is always wrong.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    March 2, 2013 3:37 p.m.

    Nate, all those issues you say are in the partisan opinion pieces have already been talked about. We are very aware of the accusations they make. There is nothing new there. And if you want to talk about some of them we could discuss them again, in the eight hundred words we are given (400 now for me).

    But just a list of headlines, from mostly right wing blogs, does absolutely nothing to support any position that you may be taking. Especially if your position is that the current president is bad for America, or that he is doing things that previous presidents have not done.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    March 2, 2013 9:32 a.m.

    @Res Novae "...partisan opinion pieces..."

    Specific assertions made in those articles can be tested. For example, one of them asserted that federal conditions imposed on state spending are a violation of the local/national distinction, central to the concept of federalism. This is true by definition.

    Other assertions were made that Obama had circumvented acts of Congress and federal court rulings through environmental regulations, labor law, immigration law, selective enforcement, and FCC regulations. Concrete examples were provided.

    Another touched upon Obama's use of executive orders. Another with his extensive use of "czars." Another provided background on the recess appointments he made when the Senate was not in recess.

    Maybe you prefer not to deal with their actual arguments, but casually dismissing them as partisan opinions doesn't really work.

    "...[T]he correct approach is to use the judicial branch as a check...."

    This is already happening. The U.S. Court of Appeals struck down Obama's recess appointments. There will be others.

    "Fight him in the federal courts, not on the op-ed pages."

    I'll fight his ideas wherever and whenever I choose. It's a free country.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    March 2, 2013 7:59 a.m.

    Nate, ECR, is talking about the racism behind a large amount of the hatred towards this president. And what that says about him is that ECR is observant. Now I understand, Nate, that conservatives want to deny this aspect of their feelings towards this president, and I understand why they want to deny it. And not every conservative, or critic of this president is racist. But a vast number of them are. You can deny it all you want, but I'm not blind, and I'm not deaf, and it is there.

    As far as American values go, the conservatives think, for some strange reason, that they, and they alone, get to define what it means, and that only they hold those values. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.

    It's also shocking how truly uninformed most conservatives are regarding the founders. That conservatives spout off about how the founders support their views, at every turn, makes this ignorance all the more silly and bizarre.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    March 1, 2013 6:02 p.m.

    The president exemplifies American values eloquently and with class.

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    March 1, 2013 4:31 p.m.

    This letter could have been written fifty years ago without a single change except for the dark references to "Obama". A reader then would have come away with as little actual information as in this offering, but we might have given it more attention then because it would have been signed (though probably not written) by some corporate executive living the unapologetic good life. But it's 20013, so - no sale.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    March 1, 2013 4:16 p.m.

    @ECR "I honestly believe there remains an underlying reason why so many on the right continue to paint the president as a demon and I think we all know what that reason is."

    Maybe you could share your secret with the rest of us, if you're not afraid that it will reveal too much about your inner self. What is it you're noticing, that we're not noticing?

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    March 1, 2013 12:28 p.m.

    I find it fascinating the more reality moves away from the far right the more intrenched they get. even moderate republicans are starting to drift away from aliening themselves with the type of hyperbole in this letter.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    March 1, 2013 10:56 a.m.

    Res Novae 10:23 Thanks for coming to my defense in regard to Nate's comments. You and I could come up with similarly long list of pundits and writers who support the president and his policies but that wouldn't make us any more right that Nate and Mr. Johnson. I honestly believe there remains an underlying reason why so many on the right continue to paint the president as a demon and I think we all know what that reason is.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 1, 2013 10:28 a.m.

    Is it not true that every law passed by our national Congress and every ruling made by the Supreme Court and every regulation enforced by our President is every bit the “law of the land” of equal power and authority as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights until struck down, modified, or overridden by those same entities?

    Is not every federal law an Amendment to the American Constitution?

    When the President speaks or acts to carry out the will of the American people is he speaking or acting contrary to the American Constitution.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    March 1, 2013 10:30 a.m.

    To David N. Johnson and commentors that followed, experts smarter than you are still trying to interpet it as it applies to each situation for the past 230 years. I dare say your opinions do not translate to fact but a heartfelt opinion that is no better than mine. Even Thomas Jefferson changed his views over his lifespan. Your anti-Obama stance is disingenuous given the moderate stances the POTUS has taken for the most part. Obamacare, the end of DADT, and a support for Republican proposals on immigration and cap and trade laws are hardly the things that liberals are made from. Does a true liberal give a hoot about too big to fail? Obama is the victim of the 2 Santa Claus theory that was first proposed in the late 70's and (R) Presidents have implimented flawlessly.

  • Res Novae Ashburn, VA
    March 1, 2013 10:23 a.m.

    Nate, the problem is that the list of articles you cite as evidence are partisan opinion pieces, not objective evidence of Obama's alleged constitutional malfeasance. If he has done what your headlines have stated, then the correct approach is to use the judicial branch as a check on his violations. That's very clear in the Constitution.

    Fight him in the federal courts, not on the op-ed pages. Otherwise claims of wrongdoing don't amount to much more than the usual politican partisanship.

  • Whatever Springville, UT
    March 1, 2013 10:18 a.m.

    This ridiculous letter and the responses that follow are just more prime examples of how faux news has created their own twisted reality for their easily led followers. They whine about how they are losing freedoms and the country is one step away from socialism yet they can't provide one single credible piece of evidence to support any of their claims because they just don't live in a world where facts or evidence exist, just more hyperbole and exaggeration from some faux news hack... Pathetic.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    March 1, 2013 10:10 a.m.

    "This president has sharply divided our country."

    It's not his fault you all are a bunch of bitter sore losers.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    March 1, 2013 10:08 a.m.

    No the writer is trying to tell us that the progressives in government policy of finger pointing, blame, dishonesty and hypocrisy are the way it is going.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    March 1, 2013 10:00 a.m.

    This letter is merely the kind of empty partisan rant that helps Republicans think that Paul Ryan is an intellectual.

    It's shallow chest-thumping and a dog whistle for the party's fringe, and nothing more.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    March 1, 2013 9:36 a.m.

    great letter

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    March 1, 2013 9:11 a.m.

    So the writer is trying to tell us that the GOP's policy of finger pointing, blame, dishonesty and hypocrisy are the way to go?

    Methinks the Founders would be appalled to see what's happening now.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    March 1, 2013 8:25 a.m.

    "The progressive movement is antithetical to the values of Madison, Jefferson and Washington " and yet in harmony with Hamilton, Jay, Adams, and the entire federalist party. Even Washington, who remained independent favored the federalists. One of my primary irritations with modern conservatives is their tendency to speak as if there is only one American point of view. There isn't, and there never has been. That's why you're losing national elections (they can't be jerrymandered). You have all the right answers..they are just for a world that doesn't exsist. Until you reckognize and see merit in other points of view you'll be lost in a world of "it should be".

    "we can only imagine what it would take to get back to a point where dependency on government handouts was the exception rather than the rule"..not hard to imagine at all chilly. All it would take is for labor to once again be valued as highly as capital. But now I'm living in a world that "it should be".

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 1, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    Most conservatives at the time of our founding were opposed to capitalism, industrialization, and free trade. They understood that those things would destroy traditional communities, families, and established ways of doing things. They wanted America to remain an agricultural nation because that is where traditional conservatism flourishes, and where little government is needed.

    Obviously America chose to follow a different route, and the government we have now is more appropriate to our needs. If you want to go back to the government of our founders, we need to go back to their economy, with 95% of Americans working on farms and living in rural areas.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    March 1, 2013 8:26 a.m.

    @ECR "And yet the author has chosen to not nama [sic] one of these ideas he considers alien to our Constitution."

    I believe he was presuming the "honest and serious study of our founding documents and history."

    The author listed federalism, limited government, natural rights, and separation of powers as principles Obama has violated. There are plenty of examples, and I know everyone is capable of doing their own research, but perhaps the following articles would help the honest reader to know which "alien" ideas the author is referring to.

    "Obamacare's Medicaid Expansion Violates Federalism", by Ilya Shapiro, January 17, 2012.
    "Obamacare vs. Federalism", by James Huffman, June 7, 2012.
    "Obamacare Regs Obama Plans to Ignore", by Scott Gottlieb, 2/12/2013
    "Obama's Escalating War on the Separation of Powers", by Jeffery H. Anderson, Jan 29, 2013.
    "Obama's Abuse of Power", WSJ, January 25, 2013.
    "Obomination: Obama's Disregard for Separation of Powers", by Maya Noronha, Sep 16 2011.
    "Morning Bell: Five Ways Obama Is Circumventing the Legislative Branch", by Lachlan Markay, June 29, 2011.
    "President Obama's Executive Power End Run Around The Constitution", by David Davenport, 1/16/2013

    Running out of space...

  • chilly Salt Lake City, UT
    March 1, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury."

    This quote, attributed sometimes to de Tocqueville, Alexander Tytler and others, accurately describes the arc of the American system. Both parties are guilty of offering hunks of "the public treasury" to voters. Obama has made it an art form.

    While we watch the current "sequester" spectacle - fighting tooth and nail over "cuts" that don't impact current spending levels at all, we can only imagine what it would take to get back to a point where dependency on government handouts was the exception rather than the rule.

  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    March 1, 2013 7:41 a.m.

    And the hyperbolic sour grapes continues. America was somehow intact after eight years of Bush; I think you'll survive another four years of Obama.

  • BYUalum South Jordan, UT
    March 1, 2013 7:15 a.m.

    Outstanding piece of writing. Thank you for your critical thinking. I wholeheartedly agree with you! This president has sharply divided our country. Also, the pain of the neglectful media's oversight and slobbering love affair on his term of office has inflicked harm that will be felt for years to come.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    March 1, 2013 5:57 a.m.

    "Any honest and serious study of our founding documents and history will lead to the same conclusion — that many of President Obama's ideas are indeed alien to our Constitution and founding."

    And yet the author has chosen to not nama one of these ideas he considers alien to our Constitution. The author claims that Mr. Davis' opinions are "absurd" but Mr. Davis, at least, illustrated some examples and sums it up best when he says "The values of responsibility, hard work and community are inherent in Americanism."

    Is that what the author of this letter is objecting to? The Founding Fathers were not united in their beliefs about limited government. Those that are today considered the most conserviative, led by John Adams, were totally committed to and promoted the idea of communitarian service - that we have an obligation to each other. That seems like a familiar premise that I have learned in my life growing up in the culture of the Intermountain West. I wonder why this author is so much against that concept. Is it because it is being proposed by our current president?

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    March 1, 2013 5:44 a.m.

    The agenda of K-oss is to rule the world. 99 and Max Smart have grown old and in a retirement home with guards to keep the in. I talk about the past [back in the day] now on it will be called [back in the daze].