Hamblin & Peterson: Jainism is rooted in nonviolence

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  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    March 1, 2013 9:29 a.m.

    Tyler D

    I think the issue is that Scientist makes it seem as if the LDS are somehow far different than other Christians in terms of their apocalyptic beliefs or their adherence to violence. Overall, the LDS have not been so. After the martyrdom of Joseph, folks thought there would be backlash. When Johnsons Army entered the valley, they could have been very differently met. Not to say all is perfect, but just noting some key points when violence could have been chosen and was not.

    I think that Christianity (as a religious movement vs. the history) is not very violent. Look at the interaction of Christ with his more firebrand disciples when he was about to be taken. For Christianity as a whole, the problem has been in not following the teachings.

    I think the reverse is also true. The top ten Buddhist countries (by percentage) include Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar, Vietnam, and Japan. Countries not necessarily known for their peacefulness.

    As for the mushroom cloud scenario? No joy. But likely some relief if it does signal the end. “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved”.

    This is it for me.

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    March 1, 2013 9:25 a.m.

    Tyler D,

    Your observation is duly noted. I honestly did not think the comment would get posted. It was a testing of the waters of the monitors.

    I have recently posted a number of comments in response to Twin Lights, who has had many "strident" comments posted himself, but mine have been denied, despite their being far less "disappointing" than this one on this article.

    It is a source of frustration that my side of the "hard-hitting debates" is censored by the DN Editorial Staff in such a way as to leave me feeling like a basketball player playing against a team that has all the referees on the other side.

    It has left me unable to fairly defend many of my comments and positions.

    But I do appreciate your reproval, and I do not disagree with it.

    Having said that, Daniel Peterson's article here is really little more than (yet) another straw man ("the critics say JS is shallow...") with some warmed up, regurgitated Hugh Nibley -- who is known to have been only slightly less strident and over the top than Daniel Peterson himself!

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    March 1, 2013 8:55 a.m.

    @Twin Light (aka Semi-Strong)

    I think Scientist makes a fair point in terms of what we find in the scriptures of not just Mormonism but most religious (Jainism and Buddhism being standout exceptions).

    While I agree that the vast majority of believers are not any of these things (fascist, etc…), the relevant question in my mind is “what would happen if the stuff really starts to hit the fan?”

    If the world were coming apart, would a significant number of believers (enough to cause problems) start to take literally some of the apocalyptic writings and perhaps be more likely to be a “soldier of God.”

    Obviously these are not questions you or anyone else can answer (can’t predict the future), but I think it’s fair to say that there is no scriptural basis for violence in religions like Jainism and Buddhism, whereas the same cannot be said for “religions of the Book.”

    Personally, I do think there are a significant percentage of believers who, if they saw a mushroom cloud over Jerusalem, would feel more elation (anticipating the 2nd coming) than horror… too cynical?

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Feb. 28, 2013 7:19 p.m.

    The Scientist

    No, you never did mention anyone specific. But if the ideology is totalitarian, fascist, and violent then surely it should be manifest among them.

  • The Scientist Provo, UT
    Feb. 28, 2013 6:46 p.m.

    Semi-Strong/Twin Lights wrote:

    "A Scientist, Do you believe your wife and those you go to church with are totalitarian, fascist, and violent? Really? As to the attitudes you find. Are none of them due to your attitudes?"

    Please read more carefully. I never mentioned any specific people. I merely pointed out a core theme of the ideology.

    Ideologies have consequences. Contrary to your initial claim, "tenets" DO make a huge difference in whether or not a religious group is or is not prone to violence.

  • Res Novae Ashburn, VA
    Feb. 27, 2013 2:15 p.m.

    @Tyler D and Twin Lights -- My thanks for the generally respectful dialogues you have in your comments to religious articles, even when you have fundamental disagreements with each other. It's refreshing to see in contrast to so many others' attempts to score rhetorical points and belittle others.

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Feb. 27, 2013 11:28 a.m.

    A Scientist,

    Do you believe your wife and those you go to church with are totalitarian, fascist, and violent? Really?

    As to the attitudes you find. Are none of them due to your attitudes?

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 11:08 a.m.

    Semi-Strong/Twin Lights wrote:

    "Sorry they are not convincing. Are you open to being convinced?"

    Of course I am. Of what would you aspire to convince me? That your religion's ideology is NOT totalitarian, fascist, and violent (at least historically, and certainly potentially)?

    It will take some strong convincing, especially in light of scriptures, doctrines, history, and contemporary attitudes in LDS Culture.

    But I am always "open" -- more importantly, are you?

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Feb. 27, 2013 10:44 a.m.

    A Scientist,

    This is Twin Lights

    I did not say the wicked are non-believers. Nor are all those who gather to Zion believers. You are over reading the text.

    I never said that violence is never necessary.

    I think that it is clear Zion will not be at war in the text cited.

    How will Zion be protected? I only know what it says in verse 70: "And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand."

    Note that it is Zion, not Zionist. The latter is quite different.

    Sorry they are not convincing. Are you open to being convinced?

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Feb. 27, 2013 10:21 a.m.

    Twin Lights wrote:

    "It is reflective of what is also seen in the book of Revelation."

    That does not make it less inhumane.

    The "wicked" - by which you mean nonbelievers... will destroy the wicked?

    How convenient... and on the same week that Deseret Family Deals sent out an advertisement that contained an offer for "Book of Mormon Story Books" (complete with Nephi slashing off the head of a defenseless Laban at the command of an angel) and an offer for "Concealed Carry Permit Class"... hmmmm. No violence in Mormonism, you say?

    "Zion...shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another."

    Says nothing about being at war with "the wicked" (by which you mean the nonbelievers)...

    "So, yes there will be violence. But it won’t be coming from the LDS. The LDS will form a community where folks can be protected."

    And your insular little zionist community will "be protected" how exactly?

    Your arguments are far from convincing.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 26, 2013 10:54 a.m.

    A Scientist,

    It is reflective of what is also seen in the book of Revelation.

    As to what causes this, Mormon says it best “But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.”

    From D&C 45:
    “And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety. And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.”

    So, yes there will be violence. But it won’t be coming from the LDS. The LDS will form a community where folks can be protected.

    But you knew most of this, right?

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Feb. 26, 2013 10:16 a.m.

    Twin Lights,

    When LDS scripture preaches that the LDS Church will roll forth and consume the entire world, and Doctrine and Covenants 87:6 says an "end to all nations" will be accomplished through war and bloodshed:

    "And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed...shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;"

    And Doctrine and Covenants 1:14 adds:

    "...the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants (the Mormon leaders), neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles (the Mormon leaders), shall be cut off from among the people;"

    ...well, those ideas have consequences, and they cannot possibly be good ones. The intolerance for "outsiders" and "nonbelievers" is explicit, as is the violence.

    And all I have ever heard from Mormons in defense of these ideas is "that is God talking" -- so if it is allegedly god talking, it makes violence and totalitarianism OK?

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 25, 2013 11:49 a.m.

    Tyler D,

    I think the instructions from Paul would have been different had the politics been different. Remember, he was a member of a subjugated race/religion in an empire that brooked no opposition.

    The slave holders of the south were in a very different place politically.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Feb. 25, 2013 11:36 a.m.

    @Twin Lights – “I think you would have to look long and hard in the NT to find much of tribalism, barbarism, or justification for treating others badly. Quite the opposite.”

    That’s a fair point (although the Book of Revelation is as “wrathful” as anything in the OT) and certainly the NT is a tremendous improvement on the so-called ethics in the OT.

    But I brought up slavery for the reason that it is perhaps the easiest moral question society has ever had to answer, and yet the Bible simply gets it wrong. Even Jesus never repudiates it.

    So while the Southern slave owners could have spent more time in the NT (certainly for advice on how to treat their “property”), they were, it seems to me, on the winning side of a theological argument (again, if we include the OT as scripture).

    There were large early Christian groups (e.g., the Marcionites) who wanted to jettison the OT altogether. I think on ethical grounds that might have been the wise move… lot less bloody stones.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 25, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    Tyler D,

    I think you would have to look long and hard in the NT to find much of tribalism, barbarism, or justification for treating others badly. Quite the opposite.

    Slavery was a fact of life in the NT. Paul’s two strong statements about being a servant (slave) and how to treat your master were both followed with strong warnings on how masters should treat their slaves.

    This may well not be what we would like, but the point is that Paul was endorsing good treatment on both sides rather than the institution. Paul’s letter to Philemon is a long petition for an escaped slave to be treated well.

    I am not sufficiently familiar with Islam to offer much. However, the Moorish and Mughal Empires (and perhaps the Ottoman empire) were probably more the zenith of the Islam and its enlightenment than today.

    No argument that ideas have consequences.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Feb. 24, 2013 10:34 p.m.

    Twin Lights – “Most come close. The problem is not the precepts but following the tenets.”

    I have to disagree… at least in part. The scared books of the monotheistic religions certainly contain positive teachings, but any critical reading of these texts makes clear just how much tribalism, barbarism, and theological justifications for treating others badly, is prevalent in these books.

    In some ways the West evolved our moral codes in spite of these texts (e.g., Slavery – Southern preachers were extremely pious and used to say ad nauseam “what the OT sanctioned and the NT permitted, let us not alter” or words to that affect.)

    And what about the Koran and Islam? They are likely going through their “Enlightenment” period now but it could be decades (and do we have decades given modern weapons?) before they learn to “reinterpret” (or ignore) the more barbaric portions of their sacred texts (just as we have… which is why we don’t stone sinners anymore).

    Sorry, but I think ideas have consequences, and the main religions today are filled (at least their Iron Age writings) with bad ones.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Feb. 24, 2013 9:00 p.m.

    In Jainism, the soul is uncreated, eternal and has infinite power and knowledge. It therefore has the inherent potential of divinity.
    Death and Afterlife, Depending on one's karma and level of spiritual development, death may mean being reborn in another physical appearance in the earthly realm.

    Unlike Judeo-Christianity which is monotheism, Creation ex nihlio

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 24, 2013 7:01 p.m.

    Tyler D,

    Most come close. The problem is not the precepts but following the tenets.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Feb. 24, 2013 1:30 p.m.

    Interesting religion… a google search showed the following to be their main commandment:

    "Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being."

    It’s not hard to imagine how different our world (and our history) would be if this were the main moral precept of all the world’s believers.