@ TrollPolice"Bottom line, BYU was voted #1 by EVERY MAJOR
NATIONAL SELECTING ORGANIZATION, including the most prestigious poll, the AP
Poll, which has been selecting national champions every year since 1936 in
exactly the same way".You just proved Naval Vet correct! BYU was
"VOTED" national champions in 1984. They did not win it! If BYU
"WON" the national championship in 1984 they would have played #1
Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl or #2 Miami in the Fiesta Bowl. But BYU played a
mediocre 6-6 Michigan team in the lowly Holiday Bowl that was bare bowl
eligible.1984 National Shampions indeed!
@troll"the AP Poll, which has been selecting national champions
every year since 1936 in exactly the same way"Exactly the same
way? Haha yeah, Sports Illustrated is probably wrong. Strength of schedule
mattered just as much in 84 as it does now. Clearly.I find it funny
that a quick google search on the topic will bring up a number of completely
impartial sports blogs and larger publications (such as SI) that do everything
from question the legitimacy of the 84 SHAMpionship to outright mocking it. But
the only articles you can find defending it are BYU fanboy blogs.Probably one of the reasons why coug fans will always be trying to justify it.
ssenhsilooffoeciovehtGotta luv all these jealous BYU-obsessed haters
always trying to minimize a legitimate National Championship.You
quote Bosco out of context; he never said BYU didn't deserve to win the
1984 national championship.Bottom line, BYU was voted #1 by EVERY
MAJOR NATIONAL SELECTING ORGANIZATION, including the most prestigious poll, the
AP Poll, which has been selecting national champions every year since 1936 in
exactly the same way.
Loving all these BYU fans trying to justify the '84 SHAMpionship 30 years
later. That says it all right there! The 84 cougs played the 3rd worst schedule
in all of Division 1 football. They barely beat the worst bowl opponent ever
faced by a so-called champion (Michigan finished 6th in the Big 10, and the Big
10 was as bad as the WAC that year. Literally.) They are the only team to EVER
be called a "national champion" without beating a single ranked
opponent. None. Zero. Completely unproven against any good team."If strength of schedule had mattered as much then, BYU would not have
been voted national champs" -Sports IllustratedUnder
today's system "there's no way we would have been number one..
there would be four teams higher than us in the polls." -Robbie Bosco From the mouth of your own qb.. LOL!
WOW!So after all the fuss about BYU not beating a single Top 25 team
in 1984, it turns out that the Cougars actually did beat a team that finished
#24 in the Final AP Poll voting?
RockwellSo BlueCoug's assertion is accurate, that the AFA would
have been ranked #24 in the Final 1984 AP Poll if the poll had included the
"Top 25" instead of only the "Top 20".That's
going to be a bitter pill to swallow for our friends who claim that BYU 1984
didn't beat anybody.Beating the team that finished #24 in Final
1984 AP Poll 30-25 on the road certainly sounds like beating somebody.
BlueCoug and RockwellGood work on proving that BYU's 1984
opponent, #24 Air Force(8-4), was better than any team Utah beat in 2004!Of course we can expect to see lots of obfuscating from our good naval
friend, but the facts presented are undeniable.
Naval VetBlueCoug is absolutely correct about Air Force being ranked
in 1984.Following #20 Virginia 119 in the 1984 AP OTHERS RECEIVING
VOTES#21 West Virginia 109#22 Georgia 67#23 Army 44#24 AIR FORCE 26#24 Notre Dame 26
Naval Vet"Name ONE team from the WAC with an 8-4 record that had
ever finished ranked in the Top-25."Silly BYU-hater.BYU(8-3-2) was ranked #23/#23 in 1991 and BYU(10-3) was ranked
#18/#10 in 1994.Long before Air Force joined the WAC, AFA(9-3)
finished #16/#11 in 1970.In 1983, AFA(10-2) finished #13/#15 and in
1985, AFA(12-1) finished #8/#5.After stomping Va Tech(8-4) in the
Independence Bowl in 1984, it's not only VERY possible, it's a near
certainty that AFA would have been ranked in the Top 25.There is, in
fact, no question that1984 AFA(8-4), Hawaii(7-4) and Michigan(6-6)were all better than 2004 Texas A&M(7-5) and Pittsburgh(8-4).Pittsburgh was beaten at home by Nebraska(5-6) and barely beat D1-AA
Furman 41-38 at home.Texas A&M(7-5) was stomped by Tennessee(10-3)
7-38 in the Cotton Bowl.
BlueIndyWACer:"It's not out of the realm of possibility
that AFA could have been ranked if there had been a Top 25 in 1984."Yes it is. Name ONE team from the WAC with an 8-4 record that had ever
finished ranked in the Top-25.You can't, can you? But you
COULD find an Air Force team that was ranked only #25 after a 12-1 season
(1997). So yeah...it IS beyond that realm.There is in fact no
question that the '04 Pitt and A&M teams were better than anybody the
cougars played in '84, and I would even postulate that both would have been
better than the '84 cougars themselves.
Naval Vet"Again, there was nothing inaccurate about my position
that AFA and UH finished 8-4 and 7-4 respectively, and UNRANKED!"Inaccurate, no. Misleading, absolutely!In 1984, the "Top
25" only included the "Top 20". It's not out of the realm of
possibility that AFA could have been ranked if there had been a Top 25 in
1984.Having watching AFA, Hawaii, and Michigan in 1984, and Texas
A&M and Pittsburgh in 2004, there's no question, all three of those
1984 BYU opponents were better than anybody Utah played in 2004.
poyman:I'm not sure why this got censored, but here it is
again..."I have always found that it helps to know what you are
talking about in order to be effective in Debate... You fail badly in that
catagory... When BYU beat Pitt to open the 2004 season,..."The
cougars didn't play Pitt in '04. And YOU'RE suggesting I'M
failing badly?There was nothing inaccurate about what I said. Pitt
WAS a 3-7-1 team back in '84. Teams ranked in the preseason who win only 3
games all year are just as irrelevant as teams winning 3 games all year having
never cracked the Top-25. Pitt was exposed as overrated. There's no way
to spin that. Although I see you've tried."BYU also beat
Michigan in the Holiday Bowl who went on to win the National Championship the
following year..."Again, there was nothing inaccurate about my
position that the Michigan team the cougs barely eked out a win against WAS a
6-6 team down to playing their 4th sring QB. And it really DOES help to know
what one is talking about. Oklahoma won the '85 National Championship.
poyman (cont.):"When BYU beat AF and UH both were ranked and
again they beat HA in HA [sic]..."Again, there was nothing
inaccurate about my position that AFA and UH finished 8-4 and 7-4 respectively,
and UNRANKED!"The following year BYU played the U of W in the
opening game of the season and beat them 28-0...Nuff Said."That
is such a tired, frantic and emotional, "Indy-WACey" argument, and
completely devoid of merit. The UWa. team of '84 was the co-Pac-10
Champion, beat #6 Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl, and finished 11-1. The UWa. team
of '85 was an unranked 7-5 team that had been depleted of most of their
impact players of their prior year's team. In other words, it was a
totally different team in '85.And besides, in '85,
didn't the Y provide the only win of UTEP's miserable season? So if
beating Washington in '85 proves you were better in '84, then
doesn't that also mean that losing to UTEP in '85 means they were the
true #1 team in the country the year before?Try actually knowing
what you're talking about next time.
Warrior Parent:"Without BYU... Utah would not even
exist."Utah existed LONG before our little brother came around.
And now, without your big brother's (or TCU's) BCS coattails for you
little guys to ride on, your WACish school lost any semblance of relevance. And
that's why no relevant conference wants you. You're mid-majors
truelittlebrother1:"I'm not seeing this Utah
'dominance' we hear so much about. I see Utah being on the receiving
end of a couple of gifts from BYU."You've lost 8 of the
last 11. That puts your winning percentage over that time span at .273.
We've also owned you over the past 15, 20, and 25 year spans, and
that's to say nothing of our insurmountable generation lead in the all-time
series. I'm just not seeing you NOT noticing your consistent ineptitude
vs. your big brother. The 70s and 80s are long gone now.
@ truecoug1"I'm not seeing this Utah "dominance" we
hear so much about. I see Utah being on the receiving end of a couple of gifts
from BYU".Of course you don't see it! Your blind to
reality! Utah's dominance over BYU comes from "WINNING" head to
head (doesn't matter how the game was won). Your trying to justify
BYU's losses to the Utes by making excuses and it's not only you
it's also Y's little brother syndrome. He said it's because Utah
got lucky! Your saying it was a "gift". Utah simply made more plays than
BYU did. End of story! You brought up the 2011 blow out game! Yes
BYU turned the ball over 7 times, but don't better teams cause and
capitalize on turnovers? Last years game BYU had 3 chances at the end of the
game to win, but failed!If you want to talk about "gifts"
you should also take into account the 2006 Beck to Harline "gift" and
2007 4th and 18 "gift". Both resulted in BYU wins. No more
excuses! Give credit where credit is due! Utah Owns BYU on the
It's amazing that you want to talk about winning on "flukes" Naval
Vet...If you want to see a series of flukes, just take a look at last year and
2010... BYU should have won both games... But I am sure that they will make up
for it well this next year...BTW, good thing for you that we're
not talking about Hoops... U is 1-11 against BYU over the past 7 years and the
one game that y'all were able to pull off about 5 years ago was in OT at
@Naval VetI have always found that it helps to know what you are
talking about in order to be effective in Debate... You fail badly in that
catagory... When BYU beat Pitt to open the 2004 season, they were ranked #2 in
one poll and #3 in another and BYU beat them on their field... BYU also beat
Michigan in the Holiday Bowl who went on to win the National Championship the
following year...When BYU beat AF and UH both were ranked and again
they beat HA in HA...The big claim at the end of the year was made
by Oklahoma's Barry Switzer who thought that the winner of the Orange Bowl
between OU and U of Washington should be the national champion... Both only had
one loss at the time and were ranked #2 and #3... U of W beat them by a good
margin but BYU beat Michigan in the Holiday Bowl and as a result BYU was voted
by both Coaches and East Coast biased Writers as the National Champion... The following year BYU played the U of W in the opening game of the
season and beat them 28-0..Nuff Said.
@ truecoug1Likewise, BYU's last three wins have come on the
back of a missed tackle in OT, a conversion on 4th and 18, and a completely
broken play that ended with a toss to the opposite corner of the endzone. Why
are those not fluke plays/wins?Also in 2011, Utah won 54-10. The
Utes scored 47 unanswered points. It is pure delusion to claim that as a
'lucky' win. And not that it's important but J.J. Di Luigi was a
senior, and Heaps was a soph. It wasn't a muffed punt, it was a kickoff.
I'm not sure why you're commenting, because you clearly have no idea
what you're talking about.
Without BYU... Utah would not even exist
@Clark San Jose St beat BYU head-to-head last year and has 10-6
overall series record lead over the Cougars. Am I supposed to respect
them/think they're relevant?U've been lucky 2 of the last
3 times, because in 2011 it took a botched punt that fortuitously bounced off of
one of our players, a muffed handoff between our freshman QB and freshman RB, a
blown call on a legit interception, and our DB playing great D and tipping a
pass that fell right into the lap of your receiver for a TD for U to win that
game.Last year, BYU outscored Utah's offense 21-17, and only
lost because we couldn't recover our own botched snap.I'm
not seeing this Utah "dominance" we hear so much about. I see Utah
being on the receiving end of a couple of gifts from BYU.Regardless,
the U is still coming off a losing season, no bowl game, kicking a player off
the team for almost beating his wife to death, and suspending your star safety
for multiple drug test failures.That's just sad.Go
@ Y's little brother syndromeWhat does top 25 finishes, bowl
game appearances, ect. have to do with Utah playing BYU head to head? It
doesn't! It's irrelevant just like your team! Y fans love to use that
rhetoric to cover up their losses to the Utes because they're frustrated
with losing to Utah every year and that's all they have. How
is Utah winning 3 straight games against the Cougs lucky? Explain to me how Utah
has won 8 of the last 11 games including 3 blow outs? It certainly isn't
luck, it's consistency! Coach Whitt and Utah knows how to beat BYU. The
Cougs need to figure out how to beat Utah again. Unfortunately for them,
they're failing miserably. Oh and Kyle leads Bronco 5-3 head to head.Until BYU finally beats Utah, your rhetoric is nothing but hot air.Are you ready for a fourth straight loss to big brother this fall?
Spokane UteIt's sad that you have such contempt for the Sabbath
of the Lord.Since when is following the dictates of one's own
conscience considered "arrogance"?
@SpokaneUte "and because they didn't dictate which days they will and
will not play on! The type of BYU fans on these threads make it easy to dislike
BYU. The arrogance is a bit much."Yes, of course, since staying
true to your beliefs and not selling the proverbial birthright for a mess of
pottage (in this case, playing on Sundays to get into a BCS conference) is
completely arrogant (roll my eyes).I find it interesting that U
apparently hold BYU fans to a higher standard when Ute "fans" (a.k.a BYU
haters) come on here, like U expect us to just lie down and let them mock and
berate our school. Where does it say in the Honor Code that we're not
allowed to defend our school? And how is that arrogance?So
according to U, Ute "fans" can dish it out all they want, but heaven
forbid that a BYU fans responds in turn.Lol...sorry to disappoint
Utah and Colorado were invited to the PAC 12 because of their television
markets, nothing more.----------and because they didn't
dictate which days they will and will not play on! The type of BYU fans on these
threads make it easy to dislike BYU. The arrogance is a bit much.
Clark W. GriswoldOne game does not a season make; Utah was simply
lucky to win 3 in a row; the Utes easily could have, and probably should have,
lost 2 of the 3.BYU has proven that they're the better overall
team during the Bronco/Kyle era.More Top 25 finishes, more
conference championships, more bowls, better overall record, no losing seasons,
and no losses to really bad teams like 10-loss UNLV and 10-loss Colorado.Get used to being a PAC 10.2 bottom dweller. A team that isn't good
enough to be ranked, isn't good enough to be a serious challenger for
anything in the PAC.BYU has SEVENTEEN AP Top 25 finishes; Utah has
only FIVE.Just like the 80's, BYU has once again become
Utah's bowl game, only U don't even get to play your bowl game at the
end of the season anymore.
@ Y's little brother syndrome"If the Utes are so great, how
come they're hardly ever ranked in the Top 25?"If the Cougs
are so great, how come they have a hard time beating Utah? Little
brother = losers of 3 straight games, 8 of the last 11, and 56-34-4 all time!Get used to it little brother, 4 in a row is coming this fall!
Razzle2You obviously didn't get the memo.Once the
playoffs start, the BCS bowls will become just like the NIT, a nice place to
spend the post season, IF you're not invited to the Big Dance.There's already talk of expanding the playoffs to 8 teams, in fact,
it's practically a foregone conclusion that we'll have an 8-team
playoff by 2016.As far as national prestige goes, the BCS bowls will
be nothing more than lucrative consolation prizes.
MyPerspective "I have to ask myself if these articles and corresponding
comment threads would even exist if Utah was not in the Pac-12. We'll never
know."-----------------Nice comments. Welcome to Salt Lake
too.Unfortunately, we do know. These articles go back to Arizona and
Arizona State leaving the WAC for the PAC10. We have heard the argument from the
local press and fans ever since that BYU was a PAC10 favorite. Even I was
surprised that only Utah was picked decades later.
Cowboy DudeJust as one game does not make a season, one season
doesn't prove dominance over an extended period of time.As
Y's little brother asked, if the Utes are really so good, how come
they're hardly ever ranked in the Top 25?BSU wasn't
invited to a BCS conference, but they've been MUCH better than U during the
last decade.TCU wasn't invited to the Big 12 until several
years after Utah's invitation to the PAC 12, yet TCU has been MUCH better
than U during the last decade.Hawaii has zero chance of being
invited to a BCS conference, despite their BCS bowl appearance.The
truth is, BCS bowl participation doesn't mean squat as far as invitations
to BCS conferences go.It's all about money and television
markets, and, as we saw with Rutgers and Maryland, has very little to do with
the actual teams invited. Why else would Rutgers or Maryland merit an invitation
to the B1G over Louisville?Utah and Colorado were invited to the PAC
12 because of their television markets, nothing more.
Canyontreker: "If BYU went undefeated with next year's schedule we
would be in a BCS Bowl."Naval Vet "Nope. The rule
is..."I agree with you which is why I said "with next
year's schedule" they will be in. Have you seen the 2013 schedule? Up
until November it's as good as any school in this big country except
it's mostly on the road. By the way I am a Utah fan too,
it's just easier to park and get tickets in Provo.
The elephant in the room has nothing to do with religion. As
WACpaddingmyschedule disclosed..."Why didn't BYU play in a
BCS bowl the past 10+ years? Because they were not good enough and did not go
undefeated.They had the same opportunity as Utah, TCU & Hawaii."
& BSU too.Yet, some fans claim BYU would be in the BCS over
these schools if it was fair. Unbelievable.
Bluto said @Cowboy "First of all... BCS Conferences, are about
to be rendered obsolete."Joke of the century. Didn't you
get the memo? The BCS bowls are still tied up with the BCS conferences after
they change the name.
@NavalVet "Utah = your "big brother"."Lol, again,
the mere fact that U are on these boards says otherwise. As the "big
brother", I, as a BYU fan, don't have to go onto Utah's boards and
proclaim it. It's just fact. The fact that U have won 3 in a row, two in
fluke fashion, doesn't change anything. Since the 70's,
Utah's whole goal to have a successful season has been to beat BYU. That
obviously hasn't changed, since in a terrible year for Utah, where U went
5-7, attended the Couch Potato Bowl, had to suspend your stud safety 3 games for
multiple failed drug tests, had another player kicked off the team for almost
beating his wife to death, and reshuffled the offensive staff for the fifth time
in 5 years, the only thing that matters is that U beat BYU.Like
I've said before, using BYU as your metric of success tells me just how
little brotherish U are.That, and the trailer park football
facilities,So keep whining...it's really helping your "big
brother" stance, and it's adorable.Go Cougars!
Naval VetTop 25 FinishesBronco 5Kyle 3Top 15
FinishesBronco 3Kyle 1If the Utes are so great, how come
they're hardly ever ranked in the Top 25?Quite obviously, one
win a season doesn't mean much on a national scale.
@naval vet"Individual awards are a reflection of a good player.
Not necessarily a good team."Only a clueless fan whose team has
never won a national individual award, wouldn't understand the symbiotic
relationship required for good players to be surrounded by good teams in order
to earn national individual awards.How many Heisman Trophy winners
have played on bad teams?Do you really think Ty Detmer won the
Heisman Trophy, by himself; passed for over 15,000 yards, by himself; beat #1-ranked Miami, by himself?
Naval VetNice try. Now try posting the Top 25 rankings
for each team decade by decade, starting with the 60's.The only
thing you've proven with your selective head-to-head stat is that BYU is,
has been, and always will be the most important game on our little
brother's schedule.The success of your entire season is totally
dependent on beating BYU.You'd rather beat BYU than have a
winning season, be ranked, or play in a bowl.Nothing screams little
brother like a fan base whose obsession is comparing everything they do to their
big brother. That's why you're here and why you spam every BYU
article.Here's a challenge:Cite just ONE thing that
Utah accomplished on a national scale during Utah's 1922 to 1961 period
"dominance," before both teams joined the WAC.I can cite you
dozens of BYU accomplishments on a national scale since then.
Snack WAC:You sure seem to have an awful lot of excuses for losing
in the early part of the series, but you've been losing in the latter
quarter century too. There's just no way around this. Utah = your
Y's little brother:Only the WACistani's have any regard
for that zeitgeist episode of your backing into the '84 NC* via one of the
weakest SOS-es in the country. And just barely too. You had to scratch out
narrow victories vs. 8-4 Air Force, 7-4 Hawai'i, 6-6 Wyoming, 6-6 Michigan,
and 3-7-1 Pitt.Only WACistani's believe winning a Heisman a
generation ago means you're still relevant now.Individual
awards are a reflection of a good player. Not necessarily a good team. A good
team wins BCS bowls. All your team was capable of doing was "quest"ing
for one, and throwing Tostitos Tortillas onto the field in your season opener in
another."Little brother" is the one with the losing record
vs. "big brother". And looking at this last quarter century, "big
brother" is just getting bigger. See for yourself:25-yrs: Utes
14, cougs 11 -- .560 winning pct.20-yrs: Utes 13, cougs 7 -- .650
winning pct.15-yrs: Utes 9, cougs 6 -- .600 winning pct.10-yrs:
Utes 7, cougs 3 -- .700 winning pct.5-yrs: Utes 4, cougs 1 -- .800
winning pct....and a 3-game winning streak.
@navel vet"Utah = your big brother."Only in your
dreams.1 National Championship to none1 Heisman Trophy to
none17 AP Top 25 Finishes to 515 National Individual Awards to
none6 National Hall of Fame Player to noneSays otherwise.
Sweet Fanny Adams; now we're arguing over which school dominated the other
back when games were broadcast by telegraph? OK; fine, I'm in! BYU's
recruting class of 1949 was ranked higher than Utah's, according to an old
"Gridiron Gazette" I found in my grandfather's garage. Rise and
shout, consarn it!
Naval VetBYA beat the Utes 3-2 back in the 1890's when both
schools were little more than high schools. (Don't bother trying to count
that spring scrimmage as an actual game.)Utah had been playing
football 30 years before BYU played it's first game in 1922. 30 of the
first 40 games in the series were played at Utah, because football was so
lightly supported at BYU, that the Cougars didn't even have their own
football field for most of the 1922 to 1961 time period.And,
let's not forget that Utah continued playing football from 1942 to 1945,
while BYU's football program was suspended. Just as BYU was starting to
catch up to Utah, BYU took a four-year break and then had to restart their
program from scratch.Then in 1962, BYU built a football stadium,
joined with Utah to create the WAC, and got serious about football. The Utes won
their first WAC title in 1964 and wouldn't win another title for 30 years.
BYU beat Utah and won their first conference title ever in 1965. Seven years
later, LaVell Edwards became BYU's head coach, and Utah became BYU's
truelittelbrother1:"Bro, if U want to use the 25 year span where
Utah dominated what was essentially an intramural football squad from BYA to
support your 'dominance' claim, then go ahead."We were
a small school back then as well. We'd won the majority of the games
during the 1st 25-yr period of the rivalry, and we've won the majority of
the games during the last 25-yr period as well. Essentially, the only time you
had an edge over your big brother was during the 70s and 80s, and that was 30-40
yrs ago.Utah = your big brother. Your tears are delicious.
@Naval Vet "The mere fact that you feel compelled to spin the obviously
one-sided domination"Bro, if U want to use the 25 year span
where Utah dominated what was essentially an intramural football squad from BYA
to support your "dominance" claim, then go ahead. I will not argue the
point that U dominated BYA back then.If U want to use Utah's
previous 3 wins as proof of your "dominance" over BYU, go right ahead.
U are entitled to your opinion and me to mine. The only difference between us
is that I'm secure enough in BYU and their dominance over Utah that I
don't need to go over to Utah's boards, stomping feet and talking
about how "dominant" a program we are.I let trolls like U
validate that for me.Regarding the flukes, please show me how many
times Harline and George caught TD's in their career and Austin Collie
caught a pass. Then show me how many times BYU muffed a handoff, had a punt
bounce off a player, intercepted a pass with a knee down that got reversed, and
botched a snap that BYU couldn't recover.Go Cougars!
Interesting points of view in these articles and I liked that differenct facets
discussed. All of these issues are valid to some degree. No one
has ever said that 'BYU will be too good.' The article did not say
that nor has anyone who is not a troll said that. No one is 'scared'
to play BYU. But, I can see why some Big 12 schools might be wary of BYU with
their facilities and network. Texas almost caused the implosion of the Big 12.
If there is any whiff that there might be a fraction of Texas-like difficulties
with BYU, I could see some schools just wanting to pass. Folks not
wanting to deal with BYU's Sunday play issue is not bigotry, some people
just may not want the hassle. They have enough to worry about, why compicate
issues. I understand that. Until there is an outside issue that forces the Big
12 to expand, I can see them being happy with a 10 team league. Independence is only temporary. I think everyone realistic knows that.
Temporary might be 10 years, but it is temporary none-the-less.
@NavalVet "You're obsessed enough with me to have known that I've
gone on record as saying "good riddance" to you guys"And
yet here you are. U just can't keep well enough alone, can U? When BYU
had taken 3 of 4 from Utah, I didn't feel compelled to go over to the Ute
boards to proclaim dominance over Utah. I don't feel compelled now to go
over to Utah boards and mock them for their losing season, couch potato bowl,
trailer park football facilities, drug-ridden athletes, and overall downward
trend. I save that for the trolls like U who come to these boards stomping
their feet and trying to make us BYU fans think that U are somehow relevant
because U have had 3 wins in a row over your "good riddance, no-longer"
rivalBYU has already proven they're the top dog in the state.
BYU has a national following and national relevance. U have CU and WSU to
compete with for worst team in the PAC 12. But hey, if beating BYU
is what gets U through the day, have at it. I think your whining is
To sum up, if you don't like School X for whatever reason -- traditional
rivalry with your school, personal associations, upbringing -- you also are
likely to believe that School X's fans are arrogant snobs. No matter who
you support, no matter which school you attended, you make nonsensical
generalized assumptions about thousands of other people you don't know.
"BYU fans are arrogant and believe they are better than everyone else"
is as true as "Utah fans are amoral drunks." It's occasionally
true, but usually complete fiction.Of course, the stereotypes that
hover over our rival school exist because they're true, but the stereotypes
that hover over our own school are completely unjustifiable.The word
that leaps to mind is "petty." Can we all just nod in agreement that the
quality of graduates and/or fans of both the U and the Y (or Wyoming, or STLCC,
etc) varies wildly?
truelittlebrother1 (cont.):Muffed snaps, handoffs, kickoffs, and
punts are not anomolous to the Y. Heaps was a bad QB. You lost! And the
losing percentage of your team vs. ours suggests our victories are the norm.
The last second/final play "miracles" suggests YOURS are flukish.
Similarly, your 4th-&-very long conversion rates are so extremely low, that
any successful conversions can be described as "flukish".
truelittlebrother1:"The mere fact that U use beating your
'little brother' BYU as your only metric of success tells me all I
need to know about U."You're obsessed enough with me to
have known that I've gone on record as saying "good riddance" to
you guys, and likewise had you seen my full support of replacing you with
Michigan and/or Fresno St. If my only metric of success is beating our WAC-ish
and mid-majorey little brother, then I would have pressed the need to continue
the rivalry. The mere fact that you feel compelled to spin the obviously
one-sided domination we've had over you tells me all I need to know about
the depth of anguished insecurity that's been weighing you down over the
years, and exasperated by our being "Fully Invited" to your 1st choice
of conferences, while you'd been rejected by every relevant expanding
conference. Poor you.
@NavalVet "Yes, and as I recall, all 3 of those games were won in completely
fluke fashion."Please explain to me how Beck to Harline, 4th and
18, and the pass to Andrew George were "flukes". When I'm talking
about flukes, I'm talking about the muffed hand-off between Heaps and Juice
(miscommunication between the two). I'm talking about a horrible Ute punt
that randomly goes off of one of our gunners that the Utes recover. I'm
talking about Brandon Bradley's knee being down and the refs botching the
call. I'm talking about Brian Logan playing great coverage and tipping a
pass that falls into the Ute receiver's lap.Those all happened
in one 2010 game that allowed U to pull off a squeaker over a 7-6 BYU team.Then there's last year, where BYU actually outscores the Utes 21-17
and only loses because Riley Nelson and Tushaus have a horrible miscommunication
and Mike Alisa can't pick up a fumble. The mere fact that U
use beating your "little brother" BYU as your only metric of success
tells me all I need to know about U.
truelittlebrother1:"BYU had taken 3 of 4 from Utah."Yes, and as I recall, all 3 of those games were won in completely fluke
fashion.Big brother wins the majority of the games. Little brother
counts comments in a desperate attempt to find SOMETHING...ANYTHING...to attempt
to hold over the head of the one who OWNs their WAC-ish and mid-majorey program
on the field.P.S.: Boston College does not have a generation gap in
the all-time series vs. Notre Dame. But Utah does over the Y. Fail.
@NavalVet "Utah is the big brother because we beat you 3 in a row, 8 of the
last 11, and own a generation gap in the all-time series."Dude,
I've said this before, but the mere fact that U come onto BYU boards citing
the Utes' head-to-head record and trying to claim relevance/superiority
over BYU because of it just shows how little-brotherish U are.From
2003-2009, Boston College won all six games they played against Notre Dame.
Would I, or anybody else, think that Boston College was Notre Dame's
"big brother" during that time, or at any time?I don't
care that U have won 3 in a row over BYU (two of those in completely fluke
fashion). Before that, BYU had taken 3 of 4 from Utah. I didn't care
about that either. I cared more about the final rankings and two conference
championships than beating Utah.See, I don't HAVE to care. BYU
has already established itself as a legacy program, with a national following
and national relevance. U currently run your football facilities out of a
trailer park.That's about as "little-brotherish" as it
takinsports:Take of the blue-goggles long and enough and you'll
see that, regardless of frantic and emotional spin, 2004 Pittsburgh and Texas
A&M were both better than anybody the cougars played in 19843
truecoug1:"I like how U say Utah is BYU's big brother. Yet
5 of the most commented articles are about BYU and 2 are about Utah."Utah is the big brother because we beat you 3 in a row, 8 of the last
11, and own a generation gap in the all-time series. Only in WACistan is the
"top dog" the one with the most comments. Everywhere else, it goes to
the team with the most wins.phoenix:"Air Force(8-4)
beat Notre Dame(7-5) 21-7 in South Bend and POUNDED Va Tech(8-4) 23-7 in the
Independence Bowl."AFA was the #3 team in the WAC back in
'84. Only in the bubble is the 3rd best team in the WAC (1984) > THE
best team in the Big East (2004). "Beating Hawaii(7-4) in
Hawaii was always very tough."Maybe for WAC teams, but looking
at their 5 year history from '82 to '86, the Warriors posted a .537
Home winning average, and beat only 4 teams with a winning record. And they
were AFA, UNLV, Utah, and Fresno St. The only "name" team they beat was
naval vetTake off the crimson-colored glasses long enough and
you'll see that, regardless of records, 1984 Air Force and Michigan were
both better than anybody Utah played in 2004.
Only 2 things keep BYU out of the Big 12. #1--TV Revenue. The Big
12 would expect BYU to share TV revenue.#2--Location. Why would Big
12 Schools in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Iowa want to travel to Utah to play?
That would be as crazy as Boise State and San Diego joining the Big East. Only
a dying conference and desperate team would engage in those talks. Bringing
West Virginia in was a desperate act for the Big 12 but the conference seems to
have stabilized.It did not make sense for the Big 12 schools to join
the Pac 12 schools. BYU's best fit is in the PAC 12. The question is how
do they get in? They would join schools in Utah, Arizona, Colorado, California,
Oregon, and Washington. Their act of desperation by leaving the Mountain West
when Utah joined the Pac 12 was only seen as a move of desperation. They should
have stayed put. Now they have their programs in unproductive situations where
they are much worse off than they were. Unless the Big 12 becomes
desperate again, I do not ever see BYU getting an invite there. Get back in the
Mountain West and the invite will come.
Naval VetInstead of arrogantly looking only at labels, you should
try digging a little deeper and comparing actual teams.It's
laughable that you dismiss Air Force, because they were ONLY in the WAC, but
then completely ignore the fact that Michigan was from the mighty BIG TEN. And
the you pretend that Pittsburgh, which finished in a FOUR WAY TIE for first in
the BIG LEAST, was something special.Air Force(8-4) beat Notre
Dame(7-5) 21-7 in South Bend and POUNDED Va Tech(8-4) 23-7 in the Independence
Bowl.And lets not forget, in 1984, the rankings only included the
Top 20. It's very possible that Air Force would have been ranked if the
rankings had included the Top 25.Beating Hawaii(7-4) in Hawaii was
always very tough. During Hawaii's WAC years, the Utes were only 7-10
versus Hawaii, 2-6 in Honolulu.Who did Pittsburgh beat in 2004,
Notre Dame(6-6), a team that lost to the BYU(5-6) team that finally got Gary
Crowton fired?Bottom line: The exact same AP/Coaches
voting organizations who voted BYU #1/#1 in 1984, voted Utah #4/#5.
@NavalVet "NOBODY was impressed that you need a late 4th Qtr rally in order
to beat a 6-6 Michigan team down to playing their 4th-string QB."Yes, of course, which is why NOBODY ranked BYU #1 to finish the season and why
NOBODY thinks they won the National Championship in '84...oh wait, that
actually happened. I guess the only people who weren't
impressed by that were U, Chris B., and Bryant Gumbel...wait, you're right.
That is NOBODY.By the way, I like how U say Utah is BYU's big
brother. Yet 5 of the most commented articles are about BYU and 2 are about
Utah. I would say that that's a pretty good ratio for the interest that
people have regarding each of those schools.And since U and Chris B.
probably have close to a quarter of those total comments, I would say that your
interest in your "little brother" is strangely greater than your
interest in BYU's "big brother".Life is just full of
Frantic&Emotional Spin Machine:"...the best teams BYU played
in 1984 were better than the best teams Utah played in 2004."The
best teams the cougars played in '84 were unranked WAC teams -- 8-4 Air
Force and 7-4 Hawai'i.the best teams your big brother played in
'04 was Big East Champion/25th-ranked 8-4 Pittsburgh, and the 7-5 Big
12/Cotton Bowl Aggies of Texas A&M.So you're going to
attempt some frantic and emotional claim that an unranked 8-4 WAC also-ran (Air
Force) > a 25th-ranked 8-4 Big East Champion (Pittsburgh)? Or a 7-5 WAC
also-ran (AFA) > the Big 12's #3 team (A&M)? Fail."Fans, coaches and sportswriters were much more impressed with BYU's
defeat of a traditional power like Michigan."NOBODY was
impressed that you need a late 4th Qtr rally in order to beat a 6-6 Michigan
team down to playing their 4th-string QB.'04 Pitt >
Naval VetLaugh all you want about BYU's 1984 schedule, but the
best teams BYU played in 1984 were better than the best teams Utah played in
2004.If you really want to know how BYU won the NC with their 1984
schedule, all you need to do is look back a year to see that 1984 was merely a
continuation from what BYU started the 2nd game of 1983, a 24-game winning
streak that included road wins against two Top 15 teams (UCLA and Air Force),
and back-to-back Top 7 finishes.If the Utes had actually done
something of note in 2003 or 2007, they might have received some serious
consideration for a national championship in 2004 or 2008.Pittsburgh
2004 was BARELY ranked in ONE poll, after spending almost the entire season
UNRANKED. Beating the Big Least QUAD-champion simply wasn't very
impressive.Fans, coaches and sportswriters were much more impressed
with BYU's defeat of a traditional power like Michigan, who was ranked in
the Top 10 and who were themselves considered national championship contenders
earlier in the season, until injuries sidetracked the Wolverines. Despite their
records, Michigan 1984 was much better than Pittsburgh 2004.
Snack WAC:"Go back and review the teams U beat in most of those
'undefeated' seasons - it's laughable that you'd be beating
your chest about any of them except 2008."And YOU can go back
and review the teams the Y beat in their ONLY undefeated season, and see just
how laughable THAT was as well. Only 3 teams in the entire country played a
weaker SOS than you.P.S.: The 2004 Utes thoroughly DOMINATED every
one of our opponents, and actually beat a ranked team. In fact, we blew them
Thanks for the honesty.
Skip past the Big 12, grab the Air Force Academy, and come on over to the SEC!
We will be happy to pull up a couple of extra chairs!
Whether BYU ends up somewhere or not, I don't like where D1 college
football is going aside from a new playoff system.One day we will see
corporate sponsors of conferences. Watch, it will happen. In other words another
layer of decision making by power brokers. And when that happens I will take
more interest in FCS or other small division football.
Your perspective is flawed, but thanks for playing.
The author certainly is arrogant in some of his assumptions. Dog TCU all you
want but remember their victory over Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl and their
traditional rivalries against former SWC teams like Baylor (another religious
institution that I suppose the author reckons the rest of the XII orders
around), Tech and UT.
MyPerspectiveLOL at your delusional spin. The kids on
the hill suffer from such an insecurity complex that they're not willing to
"Clearly, BYU isn’t a little, religious school that will meekly do
whatever it’s told. That’s TCU’s job."Wow!!
What weak smack. And then he goes on to call out "bigotry" as the
reason BYU is hated. PRICELESS!!
I've read the article in this series and I've read the comments. My
conclusion: byu is always the victim and they play the card well. Why does
byu's station in life have to be the fault of someone else? I suppose
it's human nature to blame someone else when we don't get what we
want. Personally, I find it sad that the term "bigot" is used in such a
casual manner. I have to ask myself if these articles and
corresponding comment threads would even exist if Utah was not in the Pac-12.
We'll never know. The State of Utah has a school included in an elite
conference and partnered with some of the best schools in the nation if not the
world. What a great blessing for the state of Utah of which byu is a part. Why
can't everyone be happy for the UofU and know their accomplishments benefit
It's funny to me that many Ute fans cite their reason for disdain towards
BYU as being: "They think they're better than us". But then they
will turn around and rub in BYU's face that Utah is in the "better
conference". Then there is the attitude that Mormons at BYU are the
self-righteous ones and the true Mormons are the never-self-righteous Utah
fans.It happens on both sides. Let's get over it and quit
making it personal.
@atl134"I wanted BYU to be taken instead of Colorado (though
opening the Denver market and the PAC-12 insistance on tier 1 research
universities made that unrealistic)."Thanks for your comment. I
also was of this same sentiment, for the Pac to take BYU and Utah although the
business case for Colorado is understandable even for me. I liked the idea of
geographical symmetry in the conference, i.e. 2 Washington teams, 2 N. Cal, 2 S.
Cal, etc. As well as the idea of a truer western states conference. Look at what
the Big-10 is becoming, really a shame. That's why I'm glad the Okla
and Tex schools didn't break off and go to the Pac. The growth in size of
conferences will come to be seen somewhat negatively I suspect. The last 2 Pac
conf championship games were a joke. UCLA didn't have a resume deserving of
playing against the north champ either time, certainly not in '11, and not
either in '12. It devalues the regular season which is too bad.
I personally doubt BYU will ever be competitive in any major conference because
it is so selective of its student athletes, which limits depth, and that is fine
with me. Utah will never be a leader in the PAC12 for similar
reasons, because it lacks depth in key positions to withstand the rigors of a
full season of powerful opponents, and will probably never have the funding or
drawing power to load up the bench.
Naval Vet"You only have 1 undefeated team in cougar history. We
have 7. Edge: Utah."Go back and review the teams U beat in most
of those "undefeated" seasons - it's laughable that you'd be
beating your chest about any of them except 2008.There's a very
good reason the Utes didn't even come close to cracking the Top 25 in any
of your "undefeated" season before 2004.btw, how
embarrassing was it to be SHUT OUT by a mediocre BYU team and tied by another in
TWO of your "undefeated" seasons?
Naval Vet"The rule is you have to finish ranked #1 or #2 in the
Final BCS Rankings to be guaranteed a BCS bowl."Key word there,
which you "conveniently ignored, since you're a BYU hater, is
"GUARANTEED".Under the current rules, BYU wouldn't be
GUARANTEED a BCS berth if the Cougars went 12-0 or 11-1 in 2013, but odds are
very good that BYU would be invited to a BCS bowl.btw, Utah is no
closer to winning a National Championship now, than the Utes were as a member of
the WAC or MWC. Regardless of your delusional spin to the contrary, U still have
to finish #1 in the final polls to be declared the National Champion, something
the Utes have never even come close to accomplishing. U were a DISTANT 2nd in
ONE poll in your best season ever.Fully invited, but fully lacking
in any real accomplishments on a national scale.
The Big 12 isn't trying to talk BYU into playing on Sunday. Neither is
anyone else. It might be a principle reason BYU is independant but that is OK
with the other Conferences.
Canyontreker:"If BYU went undefeated with next year's
schedule we would be in a BCS Bowl."Nope. The rule is you have
to finish ranked #1 or #2 in the Final BCS Rankings to be guaranteed a BCS bowl.
You're not in a conference, so you can't win a conference
championship, and are therefore not eligible for the "Top-12/Top-16"
metric expected of the MWC, C-USA, MAC, or Sun Belt teams."If
BYU won, we would be invited to a BCS conference. We would not have to wait for
years like Utah."Utah didn't need to wait years. We needed
to wait only a few months. Just because our first BCS bowl was won in 2004,
while our invitation wasn't extended until 6 years later, that didn't
mean we had to wait. Back in '04, conferences weren't expanding.
When the BigTen initiated the conference carousel back in the Fall of 2009, it
was only a matter of a few months before we were "Fully Invited". And
we didn't even have to finish undefeated back in '09 either.P.S.: You only have 1 undefeated team in cougar history. We have 7. Edge:
BYU IS arrogant and a prima-donna... because they believe in tight honor codes
and will not play sports on Sunday. Shows the moral decline in so many
liberal-dominated American universities, including the bigots in the Big12 and
PAC12. BTW, I graduated from both BYU and Utah- both have good and
bad fans, not exactly noted for their high levels of tolerance and Brotherly
WAC (USU) paddled my Utes"Why didn't BYU play in a BCS bowl
the past 10+ years? Because they were not good enough and did not go undefeated.
They had the same opportunity as Utah, TCU & Hawaii."For the
first time that I can recall I agree completely with your statement. Facts are
Soonerute"Ute fans are happy. That is a measure of
success."I think the deafening silence after two seasons of epic
failure in conference play trumps your 'happy' thought.This past season there has been a noticeable drop in Ute fan commentary in the
positive about Ute football and basketball. Though we would never be
able to discern this from the continued barrage of comments by Ute fans on BYU
stories, a simple tally of positive comments on Ute stories tells a stark and
contrasting different kind of story.In the end it's all about
wins and losses in our conferences...and losing fans are never very
happy and lose interest after a while.How long does a conference
invite afterglow last? 1,2 or 3 seasons?
Utah'95The PAC 12 didn't want Baylor either, which is why
Scott quickly invited Colorado before the PAC 10/Big 12 South merger was
finalized, to shut Baylor out because at least a couple of PAC 12 schools
objected to a private, religious-based school joining the PAC 10.As
far as academics, Oklahoma State and Texas Tech have the exact same High
Research University standing as BYU, and BYU's undergraduate academics are
superior to Utah's.
"Clearly, BYU isn’t a little, religious school that will meekly do
whatever it’s told. That’s TCU’s job."LOL.
Loved the humor in that comment. Thanks Coach Patterson for making that happen!
I love the way many of the faithful try to play both sides of the argument. On
one side when they lose, it's because we have a higher mission and sports
aren't that important at buy. Then when they win, it's because our
sports program is second to none and we've carried every conference
we've ever had membership in. Conveniently spun, depending on the
Cowboy DudeSAINT GEORGE, UTHow did Utah, BSU, and TCU break into BCS
conferences? They busted into BCS bowls and won.Why didn't
Hawaii get invited to a BCS conference? They busted into a BCS bowl and lost.Why isn't BYU getting invited into a BCS conference? Because
everyone else is prejudice.______________Why didn't
BYU play in a BCS bowl the past 10+ years? Because they were not good enough and
did not go undefeated.They had the same opportunity as Utah, TCU &
@ Canyontreker and Cowboy DudeYou are both making assumptions that
all the facts do not support. Colorado's recent football prowess did not
net them an invite to the new PAC 12. San Diego State's long football
tradition did not ease their way into the Big East. Most of the remaining teams
in the Big East were your so-called "Mid-Majors" not too long ago. As
you know, Boise State and SDSU have seen the light and declined to go east.Good for Utah making it into the PAC 12, but to think that their overall
athletic program, even with recent BCS success made them a more attractive
candidate...i.e. West Coast fan base and TV sets...than BYU is simply not true.
They were literally the sixth-choice...behind the four Big 12 schools who
declined...and Colorado. It is NOT the quality of the athletic program that got
Utah in or left BYU out.Religious bigotry is the biggest elephant in
the room, among other things...and you know it.
Respect is a two way thing. Those who want to receive it should begin by giving
@canyontrekerBYU could win a bcs game in what will be the last year
for BCS bowls, and it still won't make any difference.BYU is
Independent in Football, as far as the eye can see.It's where they
want to be now and what they contingently planned for, for over a decade. BYU is unique. They like the freedom of having their own network
and their associations in the WCC for Olympic sports. And they love their deal
with ESPN. And they aren't willing to drop all of those
advantages, right now.Outside of a Bowl game, their is no reason for
BYU to give all that up. As they now have access to the 4 team playoff,
just like another school has.The issues have nothing to do with a
school winning a particular game.Nor in the case of Utah, did it have
anything to do with athletic tradition or academics.As BYU trumps Utah and
Colorado in both categories.The Pac-12 is a "Secular",
liberal minded group and has absolutely no interest in any Faith Based
As a side note, I would advise anyone who thinks of bashing BYU on any issue to
take a tour of the new BYUtv building/facility across from the Marriott Center.
My whole perspective was completely enlightened after having done so. As a
former student/alum of BYU, I am simply amazed at the vision of insightful
people who put their money where their mouth is, and completely paid for this
outstanding facility largely because of its great mission statement. The far
reaching results are far beyond anyone's rhetoric about football and
basketball. I join the chorus of people who dispair over the
constant negative comments about BYU in this newspaper and elsewhere. Over the
years I have enjoyed sports events, educational conferences, and dance programs
at the Y. I have met some of the nicest people from around the country who are
visitors to that campus. They tell me that they like what they see there. Let
the hate stop. We need to get along in this world.
@CowboyFirst of all... BCS Conferences, are about to be rendered
obsolete.2nd...BSU is still in the MWC.
I'm always amazed, and uncomfortable with how easily some people label
others bigots. Particularly when those speaking/writing are LDS.If
the PAC 10 schools dislike Mormons so much, then why did they offer membership
to Utah? Coach Whitt is LDS, as was the University President at the time - who
has since moved on to be the President at the University of Washington, a
high-profile PAC 12 institution.Which is more likely, the presidents
and chancellors of the major universities to the west and east of BYU are
bigots, or BYU doesn't fit in their conferences' template (Sunday
play, TV rights, school philosophy)?
@killarney"Did Utah fans even once give a thought about anybody but
themselves?"I wanted BYU to be taken instead of Colorado (though
opening the Denver market and the PAC-12 insistance on tier 1 research
universities made that unrealistic).@Warmslope"Were the
Pac-12 to entertain renewed interest in expansion, is it at all possible that
BYU might be invited?"They want Texas-Texas
Tech-Oklahoma-Oklahoma State. That is their desired path to 16 though it
doesn't look feasible. They claim a tier 1 research program is necessary,
something BYU doesn't have (even though they have other great academic
programs). Getting the current PAC-12 setup/tv deal forced USC to drop its
consideration of a Longhorn network equivalent so BYU would have to give up the
right to rebroadcast games. I'm not entirely sure where the PAC-12 would go
if they don't get their top set of teams if they want to expand. Maybe
something with UNLV, Colorado State and New Mexico. Academically and
basketball-wise this makes sense. For everything else not so much. They may just
hold at 12, why bother splitting a pie up even more?
@skywalker"The most successful teams in sports are also the most hated
teams"BYU won a national title before I was born so I really
can't say I care about any "success" they have when I've only
paid attention to college football for a bit under 10 years. They seem to be
great at volleyball but... that matters as much to me as the Utes gymnastics
success probably means to you. As a Ute though, do you know what's nice
about Utah State? When they beat us in football they don't immediately
declare it a result of alleged moral superiority. Collie and Hall couldn't
bother to not show the side of BYU fans that other teams hate... the
self-righteousness. Are all or most BYU students/fans self-righteous? Of course
not. The ones that are though... make it very hard to like BYU.
Yes, having to deal with the Bigotry and dislikes that BYU faces is tough...
Dealing with the internal Politics from the Brethern in SLC and from School
Administration is also tough (something that you didn't deal with in your
series)... It is possibly one of the toughest AD jobs in America and there are
probably very few that could manage it successfully and pull off an invite to a
BCS Conference that protect our Sunday "no play" requirement... Tom
Holmoe however, is NOT one of those people. We need a guy who has clout with
other ADs and Conference Commissioners, and can command respect on both sides of
the table... Perhaps Danny Ainge? or Steve Young? or maybe even Gifford Nielson?
But it will never happen with Holmoe.
"Leave Holmoe alone... Because it's a tough job...???"
Pullleeeze... Recruiting champonship caliber players is a tough too,
should we leave coaches who fail to win alone? Running a company profitably
against tough competition can be tough, should we as shareholders accept losses
and falling stock prices because it's hard? Most all jobs are tough but
people are expected to perform or they are removed.Being the AD at a
university the size of BYU with the fan following, the facilities, and the
traditions that this school has is going to be a tough job...
How did Utah, BSU, and TCU break into BCS conferences? They busted into BCS
bowls and won.Why didn't Hawaii get invited to a BCS
conference? They busted into a BCS bowl and lost.Why isn't BYU
getting invited into a BCS conference? Because everyone else is prejudice.
If BYU went undefeated with next year's schedule we would be in a BCS Bowl.
If BYU won, we would be invited to a BCS conference. We would not have to wait
for years like Utah.Stop making other excuses. It doesn't make
the elephant in the room look prettier.
As a Pac-12 and to a lesser degree a MWC fan, personally I would not like the
Big-12 to expand so far west, hopping all the way over Colorado and into Utah.
Were that to happen, would current Big-12 teams likely have increased success
recruiting in Utah? Were the Pac-12 to entertain renewed interest in expansion,
is it at all possible that BYU might be invited? Did someone here say that a
block of 3 Pac-12 presidents could block BYU to the Pac-12? Issues of relgion /
politics aside, BYU was one of the earliest adoptees of what generally has
become known as the West Coast Offense and in that way a personality fit for the
Pac, at least re football. Further, on whatever religion / politics questions
involved, seems to me the cities and regions of the Pac teams would or should be
likelier to value or embrace a more inclusive and diverse membership than the
MapleDon"BYU proved itself too difficult to work with before
and, yes, is a prima donna. No major conference will consider them"You're welcome to your own biased opinion, but you have no evidence
whatsoever of the actual talks BYU had with the Big 12 or their decision not to
invite BYU to join their conference.As for the PAC 12, we all know
that religious bigotry and no Sunday play were the main reasons BYU wasn't
invited to that conference.Since those are the only two power
conference within reasonable traveling distance for BYU, saying that NO major
conference would consider BYU is like saying that the B1G, SEC, and ACC
wouldn't even consider Utah.Utah was simply in the right place
at the right time with the right cultural fit for the PAC; other than having a
D-1 football program, Utah's mediocre athletic program had nothing to do
with Utah's invitation.
Howard S."Utah brought more money to the WAC/MWC with two BCS
games than BYU ever brought to the WAC/MWC in total."The cut
that BYU got from Utah's BCS games was negligible by the time it was
divided between all of the non-AQ conference teams.
Can we move on from this ridiculous conversation (always brought up by DesNews
and a few fans who obviously aren't paying much attention) about BYU
joining the Big12? It is not going to happen...ever!BYU proved
itself too difficult to work with before and, yes, is a prima donna. No major
conference will consider them (the Big East is NOT a major conference and
doesn't make any sense for BYU).DesNews and those few fans need
to be content with BYU's inclusion in the WCC for all other sports (and I
think this is a great fit), and independence for football. At some point in
time, BYU might find itself back in the MWC or some other mid-major conference,
but that's as good as it's going to get.Move on.
BYU subsidized the WAC/MWC for decades?Utah brought more money to
the WAC/MWC with two BCS games than BYU ever brought to the WAC/MWC in total.
"Some people just don't like BYU". Nothing like being negative.
Couldn't that be said for all schools? I don't understand the
journalistic jab.We know why BYU wassn't invited to the
PAC...Bigotry, I might add, unashamed bigotry. I'm surprised to see that in
the BIG 12.
@NavalVet "I think the REAL question is why do people like you think that
just because we're LDS, we have to like the Y?"U
don't, and nobody's saying that U should. However, Res Novae hit it
right on the head. U don't have to like BYU, but Y spend so much time
trying to tear it down as an institution?BYU's not perfect, but
it is the flagship university for the church and, as such, it strives to uphold
the same standards and principles that the Church teaches. So if you're a
member of the LDS church, Y would U spend so much time and effort mocking and
railing against that same university that strives to uphold those standards?U are a Naval Vet (thank U for your service) and yet I highly doubt U
spend time on Naval Academy boards bashing the Cadets, even though I'm sure
there were some things the Navy did that U didn't necessarily agree
with.So Y the hate towards BYU?My point is, U don't
have to like BYU, but Y spend so much time trying to tear them down?Go Cougars!
One thing I like about independence is that it signals BYU isn't going to
play the rules of someone else's game. While other programs may perceive a
benefit in shacking up with the power conferences, BYU is thinking outside the
box. It seems to be an institution that knows to reorient itself when other
schools are just joining the rate race.
Wow---an article written by a "full time sports fan" and the head of his
own marketing org. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Utah sports journalism!
Res NovaeCouldn't agree more.-----Naval
VetSeriously, "Indy-WACers"?Why don't you
grow up and stop with the juvenile name calling?Which school LOST to
the last two WAC teams they will ever play?If U had beaten the only
WAC team U played in 2012, U wouldn't have had to play in the couch potato
Utah'95Since when does the opinion of one former BYU student
carry any more weight than the opinions of every other former BYU student? He
wrote an opinion piece, with no attributions or sources other than a couple of
tweets from Tom Holmoe to give the articles a semblance of legitimacy.For all we know he could be Naval Vet's little brother.The
truth is, he doesn't have the foggiest idea the details of what Tom Holmoe
has actually discussed with Big 12, nor if any of them felt that BYU was acting
like a prima donna during their discussions.As for fans, conference
expansion is all about money and television markets. The AD and Presidents
involved in deciding whether or not to invite a particular team to their
conference couldn't care less if every single one of their fans was a prima
Naval,I've known plenty of U students and grads. I've
known BYU students who, like you, have left for various reasons to enroll at the
U. I've known many U fans who are passionate about their team. But not
many forty-somethings who expend so much time and energy on multiple message
boards hurling vitriol at rival fans with schoolyard taunts like
"Indy-WACers" and "Bronkkko Mendenhall". It doesn't stop
at the rivalry or even sports. In your long posting history, there's no BYU
player you won't criticize, no BYU athletic achievement you won't tear
down, no BYU standard you won't mock, no BYU academic ranking or
achievement you won't demean, and no BYU student you won't throw
sweeping, unfair stereotypes at. No one expects all Mormons to be
BYU fans, you're deliberately misreading kaysvillecougar's question.
But I believe behind the question is puzzlement that the passions of college
athletics cannot recede to where they belong among members of a shared faith,
regardless of where we went to school. It's unhealthy.
kaysvillecougar:"Why the animosity toward a church run program
since you are a member of that church?"Seriously? Again? How
many times do you Indy-WACers have to hear the answer to that question before it
finally sinks in? That question had been asked and answered ad nauseum. I
think the REAL question is why do people like you think that just because
we're LDS, we have to like the Y?
SportsFan:"I find it laughable that you simply make stuff up.
I've never seen a single serious comment from any BYU fan claiming that BYU
wasn't wanted by a power conference because BYU might be too good."I have. Y fans have been saying that since Utah was "Fully
Invited" while you were "Fully Rejected" by every relevant expanding
conference. Y fans also like to claim the only reason why Utah was invited to
the Pac-12 was because those other Pac-10 schools needed an easy win. Even this
article stated, "don’t discount the fact that some schools perceive
BYU as a threat in the pecking order in the conference."New
Mexico wouldn't "upset the pecking order". Neither would Colorado
St, La. Tech, or Southern Miss. Or the Y. TCU might though. West Virginia was
projected to prior to the 2012 season. Louisville dominated Florida in the
Sugar Bowl, and finished ranked 13th in the nation. If the Big 12 was so
worried about upsetting the pecking order, why were the only schools they
seriously considered for expansion were the Frogs, Mountaineers, and the
Uteanymous,Maybe I should have been more clear. I should have said,
"Don't lose sight of the fact that article is about people disliking
BYU, not people disliking Utah."Having the Deseret News carry an
article entitled "Some people just don't like BYU" is
significant.It's interesting to note that the author of the
article, Ryan Teeples, attended BYU and lists the Cougars as one of his favorite
teams. And yet, he says "BYU is seen as a prima-donna. In some cases that
reputation may be deserved."He that hath ears, let him hear...
What's with the TCU shot. Look, I am no fan of TCU, but that was a cheap
shot. I mean to have that opinion in some form (toned down) from within is a
slippery slope. But to blantently throw it out there in an offensive fashion
does not make many BYU fans who don't want to look like prima-donna very
Of course, some students simply aren't smart enough. Rather
than whining about how arrogant BYU students are, they should be working to
develop your own unique talents and taking pride in them. Everyone
isn't cut out to be a nuclear physicist.
Barb Wire"Everyone who goes to BYU is not smarter than everyone
who doesn't"True, but everyone who goes to BYU does have to
meet rigorous academic standards in order to qualify for admission.Those standards sometimes engender jealousy from students who apply, but
aren't accepted, and then label "everyone who goes to BYU as
arrogant" because they were accepted.There's nothing wrong
with a student studying hard to maintain a high GPA through all four years of
high school, working hard to prepare for the ACT and doing well on the test, and
then being excited about achieving a long-time goal when they're finally
admitted to BYU.If you're qualified and choose not to attend
BYU, you have no reason to feel "less smart".If you
didn't work to prepare yourself properly and weren't accepted,
it's your own fault if you feel "less smart" because of your own
lack of preparation.
@Uteanymous, I, as a BYU fan, think that SoonerUte has it exactly right. I like
the Big 12, but have to admit that I would prefer the Pac 12, since BYU has
recent history with every Pac 12 team except Colorado. Of course, neither is
really an option, so I'm happy with independence.
I suspect what is really at work here is the old adage of "once burned -
twice shy." BYU went into a contract with the Mountain West Conference
thinking they would have the right to rebroadcast their home games just as they
had for decades. That went up in smoke and everyone blamed BYU's lawyers
for being asleep at the switch. Such rebroadcast rights are not a small thing
when 70% of your fan base lives outside your supposed "market region"
(basically Northern Utah).Its not surprising that people complain
about about BYU being difficult to work with. When they were easy to work with -
they got shafted. Meanwhile, the power conferences just can't understand
their attitude. Perhaps with time a better relationship can be
worked out and BYU can be in a power conference. In the meantime I suspect that
both sides are going to be too wary of each other to make a deal.
@Naval vet: Just curious about why as a member of the LDS church you wish
BYU(a church school) ill will. Please read and respond to my earlier post. Why
the animosity toward a church run program since you are a member of that church?
I've read many of your previous comments and it's surprising how
vitriolic some of your posts have been. What has BYU done to hurt you? It's
fair to say that characterizing 30,000 students as arogant is a little cheap.
Naval Vet"I find it laughable whenever Y fans arrogantly assume
they're not wanted because they might be too good."I find
it laughable that you simply make stuff up. I've never seen a single
serious comment from any BYU fan claiming that BYU wasn't wanted by a power
conference because BYU might be too good.On the other hand, Kyle has
a losing record against 10-loss teams AND a losing record in his new conference,
7-11. Quite obviously, you're not nearly as good as U think U are.
SoonerUteWhy is there a 4 part series on this "issue"? Because a D-News "contributor" decided to do an expose on the
subject and the D-News knew it would attrack a lot of interest, including from
the jealous trolls.If independence is such a success, why are so
many Cougar fans clamoring to be done with it?Some fans don't
see the big picture that simply being a member of any conference isn't
preferable to Independence. Those fans will change their opinions in a heartbeat
as soon as BYU starts having success against a schedule like the Cougars will
have in 2013.You want to slam the Utes as failing in the PAC 12?No slamming necessary. It's quite obvious that the Utes
haven't done ANYTHING noteworthy in ANY sport since being admitted to the
PAC 12.Ute fans are only happy because of the newness of being in a
big boy conference. Let them experience a few years of losing seasons and no
bowls while BYU is having success as an Independent and you'll see plenty
of grumbling from Utah fans.------Why are so many Utah
fans obsessed with BYU's conference affiliation or lack thereof?
Clearly SoonerUte has never been to Morgantown, WV....
Truth Machine wonders "How exactly has BYU's Independence been a
miserable failure?"Failure as measured by the fan base. If it is a
success, why is Tom Holmoe constantly having to answer the "why arent we in
the Big 12" question. Why is there a 4 part series on this "issue"?
If independence is such a success, why are so many Cougar fans clamoring to be
done with it?You want to slam the Utes as failing in the PAC 12?
Where are the hundreds of Utah fans pleading with Chris Hill to return to the
MWC? Ute fans are happy. That is a measure of success.
When I was at BYU, I never encountered a pervasive attitude that students there
were somehow better, more righteous, or smarter than those at other schools.
Certainly nothing like the arrogance I encountered in grad school on the East
Coast. But the juvenile inferiority complex on display by some folks who have
to comment negatively on every single BYU-related article sure does tempt one to
be least a little smug.Being proud of your alma mater doesn't
have to involve tearing someone else's down.
SoonerUteWhat makes you think the author represents BYU?Except for a couple quotes, almost EVERYTHING in his entire 4-part series is
based entirely on the author's own personal opinions.
go c goHow exactly has BYU's Independence been a miserable
failure?Independence, by definition is NOT being associated with a
conference.Also, by definition, BYU has been much more successful in
its first two seasons as an Independent, than that puffed up, egocentric program
on the hill:2011 #25/#26/#34 BYU(10-3) > unranked/#39
Utah(8-5)2012 unranked/#26 BYU(8-5) bowl winner > unranked/#61
Utah(5-7) losing season couch potato bowl
TCU’s Gary Patterson has said plenty. Oklahoma State mega-booster T. Boone
Pickens bashed BYU in the media. Remember, it only takes three schools to say
"Nah..." to BYU as an option for expansion.In part 3 of the
series, author Ryan Teeples refers to "people in backwoods Big 12 outposts
like Morgantown". Way to pick up your third strike. Play the
"you bunch of dumb hillbillys" card. Brilliant.
SoonerUte"BYU fans think that the Big 12 would be perfect for
them becauseA) They didn't get picked by the PAC 12B) The Big
12 is the next nearest BCS conference."It's laughable that
U whine about other bloggers "putting words into your mouth", and then
you have the arrogance to tell us what every BYU fan "thinks".
Utah'95"YGradFan,Don't lose sight of the
fact that article is about people disliking BYU, not Utah."So
it's about Utah fans!
@ ekute and Utah '95I am a BYU grad and generally a fan and
supporter of the university but you two hit it out of the park. The snootiness
of some BYU fans is an embarrassment. I do like to believe (and I hope I am
right) that these people are a small but loud minority. Most of the people I
knew at BYU were great.
@ eastcoastcougSpot on with your comments. We need to cheer for our
school don't get caught up in the hate and realize it is just sports.
Great comment and opinions. Thank you.
RE: cvalHyde Park, UT" Many Mormons actually choose to go
to other Universities, even though they could have chosen to go to BYU had they
been so inclined." You have a flaw in this statement unless you are saying
many Mormons who could get in to BYU never apply. Because if they apply and get
in nearly all will go. www.deseretnews.com/article/700218887
There are alot of arrogant, big heads up in Provo. I'm LDS and I
can't stand BYU for this very reason. "Everyone who goes to BYU is not
smarter than everyone who doesn't" is a right on statement and BYU
people need to study that every night until it sinks in. Arrogance!
SoonerUte"The failing of BYU fans is they think only about
themselves."LOL at the utter hypocrisy of that statement
especially when every single BYU article is inundated with comments from jealous
trolls who have been beating their arrogant chests because the team that Utah
had been partners with in starting two conferences was left behind when Utah was
invited to the PAC 12.Did Utah fans even once give a thought about
anybody but themselves?Quite the contrary. Our little
friends from the hill acted, and continue to act, like little kindergartners who
were given a lollipop and are now sticking out their tongues at the other
kiddies on the playground who didn't get one.
BYU fans think that the Big 12 would be perfect for them becauseA) They
didn't get picked by the PAC 12B) The Big 12 is the next nearest BCS
conference.The failing of BYU fans is they think only about
themselves. They never consider the question "Is BYU perfect for the Big
12" with rational thought. When the Big 12 finds better candidates (such as
TCU), the faithful immediately play the "they hate us" card, just as
part 4 of this series sadly did.The perfect conference for BYU is
the MWC. The perfect BCS conference for BYU is the PAC 12. Tom Holmoe and fans
would be better served making themselves attractive to the PAC 12, and forget
the Big 12. "But they hate us", they'll say. No. The common
thread in rejection by the PAC 12, Big 12, and Big East is television rights.
You can hide behind the mask of Sunday play, but its the almighty television
dollar that drives you.
There are definitely benefits to belonging to a good conference from a
scheduling and financial perspective. However, independence is not a bad gig.
Being part of a conference is like belonging to a welfare state. Everyone gets
an equal piece of the pie whether they produce or not. Considering that BYU is
affiliated with the LDS Church independence works well in two areas. First,
it's an example of self reliance, which the LDS Church preaches. Second, it
gives BYU and the LDS Church the national exposure it wants for proselytizing
reasons. BYU has a different mission from other universities and I support it.
eastcoastcoug:No, it's directed at Y students. I'm a
Mormon who was never hated for my religion. Not before college, not during
college, and not afterward.I find it laughable whenever Y fans
arrogantly assume they're not wanted because they might be too good. You
have a losing record vs. BCS schools in the BCS era. You're not that good.
Furthermore, if weak teams outside of the Big 12's footprint were what the
Big 12 coveted the most, they'd be falling all over themselves to grab New
Mexico, Colorado St, La. Tech, or Southern Mississippi. But they weren't.
They were poking around TCU, West Virginia, and Louisville for membership
I would caution the BYU-hating Utes here that the prejudice being discussed is
directed towards ALL Mormons and not just BYU fans and grads. In that sense, we
are all in this together...
I think for the most part, BYU grads and fans are unassuming sorts who just
cheer for their team, which they have a right to do. I just think everyone needs
to mind their own business (e.g. cheer for whomever they want) and stop worrying
about what fans of other institutions are doing. In the end, sports is just
sports and at best a diversion from much more important things. I get tired of
the hate and vitriol over something that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
There's a lot of work to be done to improve society. Rather
than taking the time to make a clever post about someone else's team,
channel that energy into something productive. In the meantime, I
think we could all do more to befriend people outside our circles. Start by
finding the positive and what we have in common and stop trashing everyone who
doesn't think like you.
"People don't like BYU because of their arrogant and condescending
fans."Jealousy from opposing fans goes with the territory when
you're successful. The most successful teams in sports are also
the most hated teams - Yankees, Lakers, Blue Devils, Long Horns. When you add
religious bigotry to the mix it fuels those flames of hatred even higher.Some of the BYU-obsessed haters posting on this very series of articles
are prime of examples of fans that spend more time hating on BYU than they do
cheering for their own team - I don't even need to mention screen names
here because you know who you are, and so does everyone else.There's nothing BYU can do to mitigate that hatred, so all they can do is
have broad shoulders and ignore the vitriol.
cval,"People don't like BYU because of their arrogant and
condescending fans. Believe it or not.... Everyone who goes to BYU is not
smarter than everyone who doesn't."Who thinks that everyone
at BYU is smarter than everyone who doesn't? Are you sure you aren't
projecting your own inner feelings and not basing your opinion on objective
observation? Take a good look in your mirror and be honest. It'll be
"Whether fans and BYU brass like it or not, BYU is seen as a
prima-donna."And then the tone of the entire article reinforces
The article is wrong. "Some people just don't like BYU" Reality
is; A lot of people don't like BYU.BYU needs to work more on
image rather than getting into the BIG 12. Hire a Madison Ave Marketing Co and
start cleaning up your image.Have your FB players take a lock and
stop the trash talk and classless comments.Stand tall and upright
like a true ambassador.It has nothing to do with religious bias, its
sanctimonious self-beliefs.Make get slammed for this post but the
And you want to know about real arrogance? Having attended both Texas and BYU,
I can tell you the attitude at UT is completely elitist. Of course, they have
good sports programs, but they are also Texan.
Vladhagen: hohohohohohoo! That was a gut buster! Thanks for a good laugh.
YGradFan,Don't lose sight of the fact that article is about
people disliking BYU, not Utah.I'm sorry to hear that you are
unhappy with the "attitude and arrogance at the U." As a lifelong Utah
fan, I must admit that I am frustrated by the attitudes of some of my fellow Ute
fans. But there is another side to the coin that you discussed.Like
you, I am LDS, and attended both universities. I graduated at BYU before
attending medical school at the U. But my experiences attending athletic events
on the two campuses was almost the exact opposite of what you experienced. In short, the arrogance voiced my many BYU fans sometimes make it
difficult for me to cheer for the Cougars.One of my friends, a
Wyoming native who graduated from Colorado, said: "I don't like BYU -
not because they are so much better than the Cowboys are, but because their fans
think they are better people than we are."Clearly you and I, and
the friend that I quoted, dislike it when people believe that they are better
than others. There are fans of both schools who should be less "arrogant
cval: I don't understand your hate for BYU. I attended another college and
then transfered to BYU. There are great people at every institution, but
I'm amazed at the quality of students/people at BYU. Having gone on to
graduate school elsewhere and seeing different institutions, I don't sense
an aura of arogance at BYU. Sorry, I never got that impression. I can't
remember students talking about other schools and comparing BYU to them. You
have a strong mix of students from every state in the nation and many different
countries who love being there and learing at a great institution - an
instituion with problems and challenges like every other. I had professors I
didn't particularly like and some of them had students they may not have
liked(me?). It's sad there are some who hate BYU and wish them ill -
especially sad from members of the church. That's like saying,"I hope
the perpetual education, missionary or welfare program fails. Hope relief
society tanks and the bishop storehouses go dry. It just doesn't make any
sense. Why would you not want your church institution to do well?
Leave Tom Holmoe alone? I didn't know anybody was bashing him about
conference alignment and I'm sorry to hear that may be the case. Let's face it, an AD cannot barge his way into a top tier conference.
Anybody who thinks BYU's lack of invitation into a conference is somehow
related to Holmoe's job performance is a fool. Tom is doing a great job at
BYU and may going down as the best AD in BYU history. I would like
to see BYU in the Big XII, but I don't view this as something we can put on
Tom Holmoe's shoulders. As it stands, Holmoe is doing a great job of
managing BYU Football as an independent. If and when the time comes, he will be
up to the task. But for now, let's leave Tom out of this and let him do his
day to day job rather than expecting him to pull off some kind of divine
This 4-part series was informative. Nice to have some facts instead of rumors.
@cval, take it from a member of the church that went to both schools. The
attitude and arrogance at the U was sickening. Their elitist attitude of having
joined the PAC 10.2, believing they are so much better than the other schools in
the state. Yet, not only are they the whipping boys of the PAC 10.2 in all
sports, they have a difficult time even beating the local teams in the
state...those schools that are either independent or in an "inferior"
conference.I, for one, don't even claim having gone to the U
when talking to other people. I would have preferred to have gone to Utah State
over the U. Many mormons stear clear of the U, because of how they are treated
and the elitist attitude of its fans.
Let me see if I have got this straight: There are no arrogant, condescending
prima-donna fans at Utah or whatever school you may call your alma mater.
A couple of interesting quotes from this article:"Whether fans
and BYU brass like it or not, BYU is seen as a prima-donna. In some cases that
reputation may be deserved.""Clearly, BYU isn’t a
little, religious school that will meekly do whatever it’s told.
That’s TCU’s job."Just another example of a BYU fan
that "deserves" the reputation of "prima-donna."
People don't like BYU because of their arrogant and condescending fans.
Believe it or not.... Everyone who goes to BYU is not smarter than everyone who
doesn't.Many Mormons actually choose to go to other
Universities, even though they could have chosen to go to BYU had they been so
It is easy and common to hate the leader or better player, just look at Chris B,
an embarrassment to Utah because of his obsessive hate for BYU. How many posts
from Utah fans have we seen calling out Chris B for his obnoxious hate?Certainly there are people who will hate on BYU because BYU was the big dog in
a former conference or because of the LDS Church affiliation or the way the LDS
faith is held up as more important than sports, or BYU has a bigger sports
budget or BYU might be too much of a challenge or whatever reason.I
think BYU is in a good position right now as a football independent. In the
other sports I'm not quite as confident that their affiliations are the
best for BYU, but when change occurs we all need to do the best we can with what
options we have and I do believe that is what BYU has done.I think
there will be a lot of changes in college sports in the next couple of years and
it will be interesting to see what happens!