Higher tax rate on top bracket doesn't invite pity

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  • cpafred SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 1:18 p.m.

    @Ultra Bob

    It is you who seems to have a problem with numbers.
    Your statement, "A"s only payout is the $100,000 given to B and so his tax bill is 20% of the $100,000 or $20,000" makes absolutely no sense. Electrician A did not have a "payout". He is a sole proprietor who billed his customers $200K. Electrician A clearly earned $200K gross income and your system purportedly allows no deductions. Therefore, either your ("no deductions") system allows deductions or you cannot multiply because $200K x 20% equals $40K in tax. Which is it?
    If you are really advocating no deductions, the system does not work because it favors employees over similarly situated employers (as the "electricians" example illustrates).
    If you are advocating a "cash basis" system, you are describing it incorrectly (because it has deductions galore). Also, they are a disaster (and not used in the world) because they are so easy to abuse and circumvent.
    Back to the drawing board Bob!

  • homebrew South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    Taxing the rich, (people making over 400,000 is NOT going to solve the problem. Our tax rates arew the lowest in 60 years. We havent paid a bill, since the Bush tax cuts were inacted. Tax rates need to go UP on all of us. Spending. A problem? Yes. But the most money we spend is on the millitary. That is where we need to cut. NOT social security, which is self sufficent If the gov, would leave its hands out of it, Medicare, and medicaid. Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are, no rich no more!

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:16 a.m.


    “How can liberals be so hard hearted?”

    It’s probably because we believe in the American principals of equal justice before the law, equal opportunity and fair treatment of all people.

    People who claim special privileges for themselves like Small Business, Farmers, Doctors, soldiers or churches etc. are not in tune with America.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:00 a.m.


    Q. Does the cpa in your name indicate that you know anything about numbers?

    B receives $100,000 for his wages. He owes no further taxes. His take home pay is his to use as he pleases.

    In the old way, B would have quoted his salary at $120,000, consisting of the net pay of $100,000 and the tax withheld of $20,000.

    A’s only payout is the $100,000 given to B and so his tax bill is 20% of the $100,000 or $20,000.

    Since B seems to have taken no money as profit, the $80,000 is retained in the business, with no further taxes required.

  • cpafred SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 10:10 p.m.


    And Romney and all of his right wing-nut apologists didn't think he needed to disclose his investments. How well did that work out for you all? Who Ha Ha'd in the end?

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    Jan. 14, 2013 7:45 p.m.

    CPA Fred - Oh Yes I plainly recall the massive and collective roar, by the organization of tax preparers of America leading the call for disclosure for the purposes you claim. Give me a break. Your buddy Harry Reid, and most of his fellow slobbering leftists, called Romney a liar, and claimed he hadn't paid taxes for over a decade! They weren't going on about disclosure of business partners and efforts.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 4:29 p.m.

    Re: "The concept of a small business is irrelevant."

    Only to reckless, feckless liberals.

    The rest of us realize that most of the Nation's productivity and job creation resides in the small-business community. And, that most of the middle class are either small businessmen, or work for them.

    In your example, the $300,000 you so merrily indicate should be sucked from the neck of this hypothetical business, means 5 or 6 good jobs that, along with growth that might otherwise have occurred, either won't happen, or will be cut. All because a bloated, unaccountable, ineffective government thinks it needs that money more than 5 or 6 American families.

    How can liberals be so hard hearted?

  • cpafred SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 3:50 p.m.

    @ Ultre Bob

    Your answer (to Taxman) may be understandable by others, but (sorry) I am confused. So if I can ask a simplier question:

    Electrician A hires Electrician B and pays Electrician B $100K during the tax year.
    Electrician A bills his clients (and collects) $200K gross receipts from them during the year. At the end of the year (and before paying taxes), Electrician A has $100K in his hand consisting of the $200K he earned less the $100K he paid to Electrician B. Electrician B also has $100K in hand (before paying taxes) consisting of the $100K Electrician A paid him. Under your (no deduction) system, how much tax does each pay and how much cash does each have left at the end of the year?
    Thank you.

    The issue tax professionals (who had an issue) had with Romney's offshore investments had do more with disclosure than evasion. Romney didn't feel it was anybody's business what the offshore trusts he was investing in were investing in. Some people wanted to know wether Romney was making financial bets against the US or partnering with people who's interest run counter to US interests.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 1:47 p.m.

    The Taxman.

    The employee would pay no additional tax. His income tax ($20,000) is part of the money paid by the business, his tax rate is the same as the owner.

    If the business pays the owner $800,000, and $700,000 business expense the total payout from the business would be $1,500,000. At a tax rate of 20% the business would pay an $300,000 to the government. Since you didn’t mention the gross sales of the business I don’t know if that is more or less than the business and the people paid before.

    The concept of a small business is irrelevant.

  • The Taxman Los Angeles, CA
    Jan. 14, 2013 1:35 p.m.


    "Russia does not have a progressive tax."

    That is precisely what I said... Russia does not have a progressive tax. After you reread my post and apologize, please explain what the immigration of one crazy "Putin loving" Communist to Russia has to do with anything I said.

    If you are trying to make the point that if individual tax rates get too high, people will leave, then I say "thank you Captain Obvious". However, as I pointed out below, "the notion that our progressive rates are higher than other countries' rates is hogwash" because our rates are lower than most, France included.


    "We are supposed to accept and believe the "Taxman" at his word that he is an expert."
    Where did I say I was an expert?

    "If this country is so bad in violence and education, why haven't all the rich left?"
    Because of low individual taxation. Where else can people as rich as Romney pay effective rates less that 15% and enjoy first-world country lifestyles?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    To "The Taxman" I am not sure we should trust you. Russia does not have a progressive tax. In 2001 they implemented a flat 13% income tax. That is why Gerard Depardeux renounced his French citizenship and now has Russian citizenship. France will now lose out on that tax money while Russia just gained a millionaire.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 11:44 a.m.

    Re: "I'd rather live in a poor America with true patriots who love their country,
    than a rich America full of traitors who love their money."

    Funny how liberals always accuse us of treason for objecting to their cynical picking of our pockets.

    And, funny how they conflate patriotism with poverty.

    America's documented history of enabling prosperity and opportunity for everyone willing to work for it has become anathema to them. They can't buy enough votes advocating progress. So, they now want everyone to be equally ignorant, to believe equally foolish political dogma, to behave equally badly, and most of all, to be equally poor.

    Poor, sad liberals.

    And poor, sad America, if we listen to their bleating.

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    Jan. 14, 2013 9:40 a.m.

    So when Obama and his minions accuse Romney, or persons like him, of taking his money out of this country, they are either lying, or he didn't do it for tax purposes? Why was that even an issue in the campaign, other then to further the class envy hatred that all leftists feed upon?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 9:17 a.m.

    Let the traitors leave,
    and they can take their money with them.

    I'd rather live in a poor America with true patriots who love their country,
    than a rich America full of traitors who love their money.

  • dave Park City, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 8:49 a.m.

    What Taxman said is true. A few minutes of research shows that. The problem we have (particularly in Utah) is that truth is irrelevant. If the truth does not fit their narrow views then they attack the messenger. Intellect, education and knowledge are eschewed. it's like the old saying: "Never argue with a three year old. You will always lose."

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    Jan. 13, 2013 10:45 p.m.

    Love it when leftists get on here and proclaim themselves smarter and loftier then all others (the "ignorant"). We are supposed to accept and believe the "Taxman" at his word that he is an expert. Name one of the countries that he exaults as "the rule" on taxation, that isn't governed by progressives that believe in centralized bigger government. So what if they are a "democracy", and even practice snippets of capitalization? Why wouldn't the rich take their money elsewhere, to avoid taxes? Our leading leftist hypocrites do it all the time, John Kerry, and a multitude of entertainers come to mind. Half wit leftist think we are prospering under Obama because we supposedly dropped the unemployment from 9% to 8%. If this country is so bad in violence and education, why haven't all the rich left?

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 13, 2013 5:10 p.m.

    @ Roland Kayser. You referred to old issues of the Huffington Post for your information (1980) Try looking again at CURRENT information please! Its a different story today!

  • cpafred SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 5:06 p.m.

    The United States taxes the worldwide income of its residents, so the income earned on their offshore money is taxable.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 4:06 p.m.

    The rich will leave America with tax increases just like the rich were supposedly going to create jobs after the tax cuts. How'd that work out for the rest of us?

    Let them rise and let them rise greatly.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 3:46 p.m.

    Taxman -- You are an expert on taxes, but don't expect any tea partier to believe anything you say. If Rush didn't tell them, then it just isn't true.

  • BYR Woods Cross, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 2:17 p.m.

    The rich will not leave America. Only their money.

    Jan. 13, 2013 12:56 p.m.

    MT Man From Idaho:

    From the coments you have posted on here about the goverment and now the rich will take there money and run. Well it suprize me that your still here, because alot of us thought that you would have been in the front of the line. Because of the hate you have showen for the President and the sitting goverment . Or is it you just like to whine?

  • The Taxman Los Angeles, CA
    Jan. 13, 2013 12:53 p.m.

    "Graduated taxes are a curse on society."

    And the ignorant comments continue...

    One of the very few countries on our planet (the only one I have ever dealt with) without graduated rates (aka progressive taxation) is Russia. Graduated rates are not just the norm, they are the rule. This tried-and-true rule of graduated tax rates is followed by the whole world because they are considered fair (by all but the most radical of both sides of the political spectrum) and because they raise the necessary revenue to run an economy.

    If you do not like graduated rates, Mr. Richards, I suggest you emigrate to Russia.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 13, 2013 12:36 p.m.

    The greedy will always demand that someone else pay for their liberties, for their freedoms, for their healthcare, for their "cake". They want it all but are not willing to pay their way.

    They would be incensed if they were asked to pay $8 for a gallon of milk because they had a job and the next person in the grocery line couldn't pay for his own milk, and yet, they think nothing of demanding that that poor person pay more property tax and sales tax to pay for their ticket to the symphony or the zoo.

    Graduated taxes are a curse on society. They let politicians buy votes. They allow Obama to turn this country into a greedy, finger-pointing, hate filled nation where half the people demand that the other half work harder for less money so that they, themselves, don't have to work.

    Shame on those who look with their greedy eyes on the wealth of the workers who produce jobs and run businesses. Shame on those politicians who prey on the those who covet wealth but who do nothing but complain.

  • The Taxman Los Angeles, CA
    Jan. 13, 2013 12:25 p.m.

    "Institute a flat rate income tax to be applied to every income from every source without exception and without exemption. No deductions, no favoritism, no individual tax returns."

    Please explain for us Ultra Bob, how much tax would be paid under your system by two electricians, one a small business owner and the other an employee. Assume the employee works for the small business owner (who provides his trucks, tools, materials, etc.) and pays him $100K salary. The owner, also an electrician, earns $800K, but pays $700K out in expenses (salaries to the other electrician and secretary, trucks, tools, materials, etc.). Assuming a 20% flat tax rate and no deductions (i.e., your proposed system), how much would each pay?

    Roland left out Singapore in his first post, the one nice place (worth living) in my opinion that has lower individual tax rates than here. Otherwise if talking about tax treatment he is correct that it is hard for a rich person to receive better (tax) treatment than they get in the U.S. The answer to MM's question why don't rich people from other countries come may be because of our poor educational system and violent society.

  • The Taxman Los Angeles, CA
    Jan. 13, 2013 12:02 p.m.

    I practice international tax for a living and am well acquainted with the tax laws of many countries as well as our own. Most of the comments regarding taxes I read on this board (not just regarding this article) display incredible ignorance.

    For example, the notion that our progressive rates are higher than other countries' rates is hogwash. The notion that we "punish anyone who is successful in this country" is hogwash considering we have some of the lowest marginal individual rates around. The notion that our high individual rates are stifling job creation relative to other countries is hogwash. The northern European countries who are booming right now have higher tax rates than ours, and during the good 'ole days when our country was booming, our tax rates were higher.

    The statement "Foreign people who own businesses in the USA and earn their income from the American people, don't pay income tax to USA" is flat-out false. All effectively connected US income is taxed in the US.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Jan. 13, 2013 11:32 a.m.

    "fewer inventions, fewer investments, fewer capitol risk takers,"

    Some of our best and brightest-engineering and math majors--are now working in the financial services industry where salaries are significantly higher than traditional engineering and science fields.

    The U.S. lost wealth as a result of the economic collapse. Additionally, China, India have new economies which are expanding while the U.S. has a more mature economy.

    "A recent survey from British analyst WealthInsight reports the U.S. has added 1.1 million millionaires since Obama was elected in 2008.(Huffington Post 11/2/2012)

    "But even if it seems like America's wealthy are losing ground, they have a long way to go before losing their place as the richest group in the world. The U.S. still ranks first for number of millionaires, with more than 5.1 million households qualifying for the label, according to the report. Japan ranks second with 1.6 million millionaire households, followed by China.

    Just 1 percent of the world's households controls 40 percent of the world's private wealth, the study said." (Huffington Post 5/2012)

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 10:55 a.m.

    I don't see any call to pity the rich.

    I do pity those who think it is better to tax and redistribute than to create jobs. Creating jobs distributes not only the money, but creates the self respect that comes with the earning of the money, and creates great American products made by American minds, American capital, and American hands. Government redistribution takes away self respect and replaces it with idleness and a mental condition called entitlement mentality.

    Government is not a creator, not can or should it be. Government is the ultimate money pit, deep enough to take all the wealth of the whole nation and it will still have want of more.

    Government is what should have the size of its intake restricted to 16 oz (Perhaps translated to 16% tax?) so it doesn't stay so fat and bloated or get any more fat and bloated.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 9:48 a.m.

    Business and rich people have the ability to blackmail our governments by the threat of changing their residence. Foreign people who own businesses in the USA and earn their income from the American people, don’t pay income tax to USA.

    Tax reform in the form of the Ultra Tax could eliminate the problems above and a host of other unfair inequities in the support of the American governments.

    Institute a flat rate income tax to be applied to every income from every source without exception and without exemption. No deductions, no favoritism, no individual tax returns.

    Collect the tax from the operation of any and all business operating in the US market. The amount of the tax would be a flat rate applied to every bit of money paid out of the business operation for every purpose. All money paid out of a business is income to someone, no matter if it is for inventory, wages, profits or even the special services fees from local governments. Include churches, charities, and all profit and non-profit.

    Eliminate business income tax, death tax, special accounting and tax these as part of the flat rate income tax.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 13, 2013 9:19 a.m.

    @ Roland Kayser. If what you say is true, the US should have rich people from other countries knocking down our doors to get their money here, so how come they aren't? According to the Huffington Post, the number of millionaires in America are decreasing at a rapid pace.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 8:54 a.m.

    Re: "Higher tax rate on top bracket doesn't invite pity"

    The ones to pity are those who will lose jobs or stay unemployed because bloated government believes it has more need of a small company's money than do its potential employees.

    This is not a war on the rich -- they'll make out OK -- as much as it is a war on those in the middle class that depend on small businesses for their jobs.

    Which is to say millions of Americans.

    But, hey, so long as the rubes -- I know, I know, the politically correct terms is "low knowledge voters" -- are taken in by the Obama regime's divisive lies, and so long as the politicos who pander to the rubes keep getting reelected, pity is all the suffering American middle class can expect from its government.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 8:45 a.m.

    Great letter. I highly doubt any would give up their citizenship to merely pay less in taxes. But if there are well go ahead and leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 8:38 a.m.

    Well, if someone considers a return to Clinton-era tax rates "class warfare", I suppose that only getting a 40-foot yacht instead of 44 really is the dawning of evil Communism. Some conservatives tell us that you can't be poor if you own a refrigerator or cell phone, but then tell us you can't be rich if another 4% taken off of income over $250K. How their heads don't immediately begin spinning in circles, I don't know.

    Mr. Wyrouck, if you do gift your disability pension to the yacht earners, it will certainly be appreciated. It's less time and money they will need to spend on lobbyists to get favorable policies.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 13, 2013 7:15 a.m.

    Its not that the "rich" will leave the country and take their wealth with them, its that since we demonize and punish anyone who is successful in this country we will have much less of it at every level in our society; fewer inventions, fewer investments, fewer capitol risk takers, fewer entrepreneurs and fewer jobs means fewer taxpayers and less revenue to tax! Its like eating our seed corn so that in the spring, no new crops (wealth creation)are possible to harvest in the fall! If we punish the wealth producers, who will produce wealth? What will there be left to re-distribute? We can borrow $16.5 trillion but someday, someone will have to pay!

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 12:13 a.m.

    There is nowhere in the developed world that a rich person can go and receive better treatment than they get in the U.S. Sure you could pay less taxes in Paraguay, or Uganda, or Bangladesh, but you really wouldn't want to live there.