Look to Sabbath for societal cures

Return To Article
Add a comment
  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 5:50 p.m.

    to cjb...

    You mean "Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right."???

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 13, 2013 12:27 p.m.

    to Mikey R 1/10/13 13:56

    "You've got two choices: Either align yourself with God or solve the world's problems yourself. How much progress are YOU making on solving those problems?"

    What about God helps those who helps themselves?

    to Mikey R 1/10/13 16:35

    We were born to question. If not, why did God gives us brains and the ability to reason/think?

    to Mikey R 1/11/13 8:13

    "Which is it test tube or creator, atonement or personal suffering?"

    Me? I'll take Deism where God gave us Reason not religion and Gnosticism where the individual earns his own salvation through enlightenment, wisdom, & knowledge.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Jan. 13, 2013 9:59 a.m.

    Emajor - the voice of reason

    Mike Richards - the voice of the inquisitor

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Jan. 12, 2013 10:08 a.m.

    Re Mike Richards

    In your last comment do you have a point as it pertains to this discussion? If so would you mind sharing it?

  • Ying Fah Provo, UT
    Jan. 11, 2013 1:36 p.m.

    Doesn't this conversation belong in the Religion section of the DesNews? It is amazing that there is a religious diatribe from Mike Richards which just goes on and on as he lectures others on how they should think and what they should believe.

    If I want a sermon, I'll go to church. I don't need to read it in the Letters to the Editor and the comments readers make. As for Mike, thank goodness you live in Utah. No other newspaper would print your comments as they are disrespectiful of the beliefs of others. There is enough religious animosity without you driving home your particular belief system to the consternation of others who do not share your particular perspective.

    Of course, I could just avoid reading anything written by particular commentators, but then I might miss a particular point that I didn't consider. However, some of these comments I could almost dictate verbatim without reading because I know exactly what they are going to say.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Jan. 11, 2013 11:52 a.m.

    Astronomy has shown us that there are millions of galaxies with billions of stars in each of them. The fact that there are a number of planets that fall into a life-sustaining orbit is a statistical certainty. Doesn't take any faith to believe this, the evidence is right there.

    "They justify their way of thinking by mocking God."

    No, we justify our way of thinking by looking at the evidence and coming to a different conclusion than you do. I think many religious people justify their way of thinking by mocking observable evidence.

    "Which is it test tube or creator, atonement or personal suffering"

    What a truly odd and irrelevant question. I don't worship a test tube. And you believe that by being human you are such a terribly fallen and disgraced spirit that a god has to come down and inexplicably make it better by sacrificing himself for you. If that inspires you to live a moral life, that's wonderful. But for many of us, that atonement narrative makes absolutely no sense at all.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Jan. 11, 2013 9:02 a.m.


  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 11, 2013 8:13 a.m.

    Some people believe in a God who lives in a test tube. Some people believe that this world "just happened", that every form of life found on this world "just happened", that earth "just happened" to be in the perfect orbit to sustain life, that no planning ever occurred.

    Some people believe that man "discovered" moral laws through experimentation when history clearly shows that those who "experiment" with moral law most often choose to cheapen themselves and others by ignoring anything that would restrict them from being animals and acting like animals.

    Some put their financial welfare above their spiritual and emotional welfare, choosing to work as hard and as long as possible, ignoring the need their body has to rest, ignoring their spirit's yearning to reconnect with higher (and definitely superior) intellect.

    They justify their way of thinking by mocking God.

    Even though they mock, God still allows them to participate in mortality and to enjoy the feast that he provided for them. God's son, Christ, still extends to them the blessings of his atonement which would allow them to escape the agony that he experienced.

    Which is it test tube or creator, atonement or personal suffering?

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 5:55 p.m.

    Attending church would help solve our morality problems? Only so far a churches teach morality. Many churches teach useless or harmfully doctrines and also reduce people's ability to think logically.

    One church spends a big portion of its time teaching it's adherents that using birth control is a great evil. Another that going to doctors when they are sick is wrong. They commonly let their kids die rather than let them get medical help when they need it. Another religion circumcises their girls by force so they can't feel sexual pleasure, and their holy book also instructs them to kill people who refuse to convert. Another circumcises their boys when they are infants reducing their ability to feel sexual pleasure. Many churches justified slavery using the Bible as the basis for this justification. Other churches stood idly by and did and said nothing.

    The point is that churches are a mixed bag when it comes to teaching morality. Also they are a negative when it comes to helping people apply reason in their life. This because they teach or imply that their questionable doctrines are not to be questioned or examined for validity but just accepted.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 5:53 p.m.

    Mike, I don't care if you exhaust yourself for hundreds of pages preaching your religion to me, I have no interest in it. Honestly, your attempts at being an online missionary further convince me that I've made the right choice. Accusing LDS Liberal of religious heresy because of his differing political views doesn't help your case, either.

    Like most people presenting why they believe in their religion, your arguments are circular, self-referencing, and ignore the logic that has provided us with successful science, technology, and economic systems. Essentially, you are saying "my religion is true because it is true. How do I know? Because my religion tells me that my religion is true." That sort of rationale doesn't fly anywhere else in the world, not the courtroom, not the laboratory, not the balance books of a corporation.

    And when push comes to shove, you start vaguelly threatening non-believers with eternal consequences. Sorry, Mike, that is getting a little bit radical and worrisome.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 10, 2013 4:35 p.m.

    There are some who think that their job in life is to mock God, to belittle him, to question his existence, to heap scorn on those who put God first in their lives. There are those who claim to membership in his son's church, but then use every possible opportunity to discredit that church and those who represent our creator.

    Some think that the baptismal covenant that they made: "to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death", is something to mock as they stand as witnesses, not for God, but for all who those oppose God.

    Religious worship is sacred. Mockers may think that God is a joke, but the joke is on them because he created them and He gave them their agency to show their contempt for being created.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 3:21 p.m.

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    Gee Mike, chill....
    The only thing missing from your forced religous preaching was an AK-47 at our heads, or else...

    Like I've said before -- Utah-liban.
    This is America, with Consitutional freedom of Religion [so long as it's MY religion, whink, whink, nudge, nudge].
    Conform like the rest of us or Leave it, right Brother?

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 10, 2013 1:56 p.m.

    "You shall have no other Gods before me".

    Simple. Plain. Easily understood.

    Too many think that they are their own creator; that they formed the heavens and the earth; that they delivered the laws that govern happiness; that they have the right to ignore God and yet remain "happy".

    The Sabbath, whichever day that you choose, is THE day that is to be set aside to worship God. For those who argue "which God", let them ponder, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    You've got two choices: Either align yourself with God or solve the world's problems yourself. How much progress are YOU making on solving those problems?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 12:40 p.m.

    Which Sabbath?
    Sunday - Chrisitan
    Saturday - Jews
    Friday - Muslims?

    I see no difference from forced Sabbath worship here,
    than I do forced Islamic worship in the Muslim world.

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Jan. 10, 2013 12:30 p.m.

    It would be great if everyone had Sunday off. Are you calling for our businesses and corporations to give everyone Sunday off?

    Or are you just pining for the days when everyone had Sunday off? Me too. Hit those boardrooms ,I think the workers are convinced.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:38 a.m.

    The hostile comments (with a few exceptions) I see above give evidence that forcing a sabbath day on anyone is not going t work. Although I totally agree that the observance of the Sabbath (whichever one you choose) is good for the soul and can bring you closer to the god that you worship, like almost everything else with such benefits, it cannot be forced on someone.

    My old business partner still lives in Salt Lake City. He grew up on the east coast and came to Utah to attend college. He loved the environment and after a short stint away from the state, he returned there in 1985. After our business went bad I left there 24 years ago but he stayed. He is not a member of the predominant religion and I recently asked him how he has survived "amongst the Mormons" all these years. He explained that one benefit is that he can go to a movie or to the grocery store on Sunday and there are not crowds. And so the sabbath observance of some is certainly making his life better, although not in the way the letter writer intended. To each his own.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:59 a.m.

    You want to force businesses to do something against their will. Why do you hate capitalism? Why do you hate freedom?

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:28 a.m.

    Anyone who takes an honest look at society, history, and the world as it currently exists will know that religion is no more a panacea than anything else.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    pmccombs -- thank you for a thoughtful and unfortunately accurate comment.

    But I do remember the old days when I was a kid. Sunday became a day when, after church, our extended family gathered for a day of rest and visiting with one another. My father and uncles would fall asleep watching football and my mothers and aunts would clean up after the dinner they had prepared and then pull out their crocheting.

    We kids would do whatever kids still do.

    But the most important part as I look back upon it now was the closeness and feeling of family and security it gave us. We knew we were loved.

  • pmccombs Orem, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:00 a.m.

    It seems to me that all people, even the secular, could use a day set aside for rest and renewal. Down-time is good for introspection; to reflect back on the experiences of the past few days and to assess one's progress. It is good to have time to look forward and plan for another week. It is good even to forget and to be in the moment.

    I think the secular and the non-secular agnostic, in particular, could devise for themselves highly effective and refreshing Sabbaths.

    Now, where I live, it isn't easy for the _religious_ folk to have a Sabbath. The reason for this is that the most egregious offender in terms of Sabbath-breaking is their own church, for it confuses something it calls "serving the Lord" with a completely different thing called "resting." For instance, it removes fathers from the home, some of them for extended 7-8 hour periods. It leaves mothers with hectic early-morning schedules of preparing children to attend hour after hour of meetings. It schedules firesides for youth during dinner hours and keeps parents on the go. In short, it leaves many of its people exhausted.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 8:07 a.m.

    I no longer believe in your god and I'll thank you to leave the days of the week as they are so that I may perform necessary business on any day I choose. If you wish to set aside one day each week, go for it.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 7:03 a.m.

    A bit of a silly letter, trying to blame societal problems on lack of adherence to religious rituals that society is mercifully learning to do without. The author doesn't even do a good job of it, his entire editorial provides no focused argument or evidence that Sabbath Day observance would do anything to stop whatever vague problems he sees in American society.

    I am unconvinced that society is any less moral or well behaved than in the past, and am certain that non-religious people are just as capable of living moral and productive lives without the yoke of religion about their necks.

    If religious ritual on Sunday centers you and provides solace & perspective, great. But it ain't the only way. Many of us get that simply by taking a walk, unplugging from the internet, reading a good book, or spending time with our family.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Jan. 10, 2013 6:48 a.m.

    "Since these laws have now been mostly thrown aside, we are more free than ever before to treat all days in the week similarly"

    So, are you advocating reinstating the blue laws? Do blue laws, for the sake of promoting the Christian religion, make sense to anyone?

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 6:19 a.m.

    You have the right to pray and honor your sabbath to your heart's content, privately, and not with the assistance or endorsement of the government.

    Which sabbath do you honor? Saturday, or Sunday?

    How sure are you that your particular way of honoring your sabbath is compatible with everyone else's?