If teachers are security endorsed, schools are no longer soft targets

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  • What in Tucket? Provo, UT
    Dec. 28, 2012 10:08 p.m.

    Of course where guns are totally banned knives are used by mass killers. Maybe they do not get as many. Schools could have a locked box that opens to fingerprint and a gun could be obtained fairly quick. I prefer that those teachers that are willing to carry s should do so, but this should only be known to the principle. Even if no teacher was willing to carry the perp would not know this. If I were a teacher I would want to protect my students and I hope I would be willing to shoot a killer shooting at them. Manufacturers make rather small guns these days and they can be carried in one's pocket. Anywhere guns are banned homicides do not decline and often increase.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 26, 2012 6:01 p.m.

    Being armed requires carrying a couple hundred rounds and several weapons now. Shall we further escalate?

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 25, 2012 1:48 p.m.

    rlsintx, clearly drunk driving is a problem. And if we were discussing the issue of drunk driving perhaps we could find some ways to deal with it. I also think that there is not one person commenting here that would support drunk driving, and police agencies as well as government are very aggressive in addressing the problem. Drinking and driving a car are heavily regulated, as is buying alcohol, at least in Utah.

    But we are not talking about drunk driving on this thread, we are talking about gun violence. And the two really do not have the same solutions.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 25, 2012 12:56 p.m.

    Another Nut job takes the same assault rifle, lights his house on fire and ambushes the FireDepartment when they respond to the call.

    And so far the NRA's ONLY answer to this sort of problem is that America needs to hire armed security gaurds and put them in each and every school in America?

    I don't think the NRA is dealing in REALITY!

  • rlsintx Plano, TX
    Dec. 25, 2012 10:33 a.m.

    450 people Will be killed by drunk drivers on New Year's Day. 10,000 this year. Round up all the alcohol, obviously we can't trust the citizenry with it and making it unobtainable will solve the problem.

    No ?

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 25, 2012 10:05 a.m.

    cjb, did you take the time to read the Wikipedia article you referred us to? Did you?

    From that article, "The spate of attacks left at least 21 dead and some 90 injured."

    That is the number from all of the attacks on schools in China.

    You make this claim, "China has far more attacks on schools than we do and more teachers and students killed and injured as a result."

    I'll ask again, did you read the article? We had more deaths in this one attack at Sandy Hook then all of the attacks on schools in China. And the fact that China has a far higher population then needs to be taken into consideration. Redshirt, what do you think the fatality and injury rate would be in China if these attackers had been armed with semi auto assault style weapons and large capacity clips?

  • CBAX Provo, UT
    Dec. 25, 2012 12:17 a.m.

    Being armed does in no way mean that you will win a shoot out with an armed assailant. Just a guess.

    Just a really bad idea. So bad. terribad. Incredibad. Bad-squared.

  • Liberal Today Murray, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 8:04 p.m.

    In Sandy Hills School, teachers did heroic things to try to protect their children. They paid with their lives. Is that really what we expect our teachers to have to do?

    I know many teachers. Some absolutely do not want to carry a gun at school and I accept and respect that. But some do, for the ability to protect not only themselves, but also those students they dedicate their lives to teaching. These are experienced, well respected, and well liked teachers. I don't think having them carry is a problem. They are top notch people who we already trust our children to. Who better to protect them?

  • Demisana South Jordan, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 8:03 p.m.

    How many incidents have we had in Utah where a teacher's weapon was taken and misused? We already have armed teachers in Utah schools. No teacher has been required to have CCW - they are allowed to. To my knowledge, none of my kids' teachers have guns - but I'd be happy to know they did. So that if a nutcase did show up, they'd be there 5 to 20 minutes before the cops, with the ability to slow or stop the shooter. The average number of deaths in a mass shooting stopped by police is 14. Stopped by a civilian on the premises - 2.5. If you think a criminal pays attention to gun laws or gun free zones, you need help yourself. They go where they can find the most potential victims and the least potential resistance.

    For a much better, if lengthier discussion of the pros of responsible gun use - google Larry Correia and gun control.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 5:32 p.m.

    To "cjb" it is more than just China. Japan took away the guns of their people, now, like China, they use swords, axes, and other similar weapons. Now Japan is regulating knives and swords. Unfortunately the liberals will not be satisfied, and are too arrogant to realize that the problem isn't the weapons, but the mental state of the killers.

    Another fact that the liberals will overlook is the simple fact that gun ownership is up, and murders is down. If guns were the problem, then murders should be up, but they are not.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 5:32 p.m.

    I am having trouble understanding how Mike R. can say a mentally ill gunman "acted to strip Americans of their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" by causing a reexamination of gun laws in this Country. However this same linguist has trouble parsing the phrase from the same document "to promote the general welfare" as giving the State the power and authority to do just that.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 5:06 p.m.


    Chances are teachers will be required to do training and will be asked to pay for it out of their own pockets :)

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 3:25 p.m.

    You really don't see anything wrong with a society that has to prepare and equip elementary school teachers to kill marauding attackers? I do. We're sick.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 2:01 p.m.

    Arm the sixth graders, the clerks at stores, mall personnel, collage teachers, business people, etc........ That will reduce gun violence? Plan B, no one take guns out of there house not locked up.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 1:30 p.m.

    Many teachers in Utah are already armed. They have and make use of concealed carry permits and what thinking parent doesn't feel safer as a consequence?

    China has far more attacks on schools than we do and more teachers and students killed and injured as a result.

    See Widipedia .. School attacks in China. (2010-2012)

    We are fooling ourselves if we think getting rid of guns including assault weapons will fix this. If we were to take the tool away, criminals would turn to using other tools as they do in China. In a sense a knife or sword is more effective than a gun. A knife operates silently, giving no warning to hide or take cover.

    It is said even though more gun control wouldn't be very effective we must do something. Yes we must but why not something that WOULD be effective? Encourage mothers with children to stay home and raise them providing emotional security and moral training. The government could even provide a subsidy for families to help them afford this, saving money in crime loss and prisons. It used to be that most mothers with children did stay home. We were warned but didn't listen.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 24, 2012 1:14 p.m.

    Three weeks ago school teachers were overpaid, glorified, union-thug-babysitters...

    now they are wonderful, sacrificial protectors of our children who need to be armed with assault rifles.

    Interesting change of perspective. Does training on assault weapons earn them a higher pay rate?

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Dec. 24, 2012 12:52 p.m.

    For every "Adam Lanza" who acted to strip Americans of their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, there are thousands of Americans who join with him in proposing ways to strip Americans of their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. He used force and enforced it with a gun. They use want to use force and petty politicians to enforce their will on the rest of America. The difference between "Adam Lanza" and those who so willing TAKE away our liberty is only one of degree.

    Arming teachers is the wrong thing to do. No teacher must ever be put in the position where he/she has to kill another human being in front of her/his students. They did not sign up to be policemen, but to teach our children. Find another way.

  • Sal Provo, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 12:19 p.m.

    As a former school teacher I wouldn't want the burden of security added to my job description. However, the letter writer is correct in asserting that something needs to be done to secure our schools. Perhaps other staff could be armed (custodians?)or the buildings made more secure.

    Israelis use retired military people to man the entry of every public building. America is probably just too big to do that.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 11:36 a.m.

    Four volunteer firefighters were just ambushed. Two dead. Two wounded. In the days since the last school shooting, there have been hundreds of others.

    As soon as possible after a shooting, ANY shooting, the news media should report to all of us whether the gun(s) used by the person was "legal" or "illegal." It would be a great help to anyone interested in learning the facts about guns in America. It could help a lot in the development of sensible gun laws.

    I'm sure most Americans would be astonished at how many of the guns used in situations like these were "legally" in the possession of the owner who is now suddenly a criminal instead of just another "sensible" gun toter. Another surprise would be how many showed past signs of mental problems.

    Most attention is focused on mass shootings. What about the other, less sensational shootings? Shouldn't attention be paid to ALL shootings?

    Google the Mother Jones report on shootings.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 11:21 a.m.

    As someone who supports fairly strong gun safety laws I'm actually rather okay with the idea of having a trained sherrifs deputy in each school (the high schools in my home county had that). However..
    1. we currently do not have nearly enough officers to be able to devote one to every school (that'd be about 30 more in that home county in maryland along).
    2. Columbine had that so let's not pretend this solves everything (nothing will solve everything for the record).
    3. It does absolutely nothing to stop the other 10,900 of the 11,000 gun incidents each year that aren't shootings in schools, on its own it does very little to tackle gun safety and mental health deficiencies in this nation. It merely attempts to help with one very specific type of incident. Fact is about 30 Americans are killed by guns every day on average. Over 100 have died since Sandy Hook including a diturbing case today of two firefighters being killed while responding to a fire.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 10:50 a.m.

    It seems logical to believe that whatever the solution is for protecting school children in school, it will probable follow the normal pattern. The winning solution will be the one(s) that produce the most profit for business.

    I have known peace officers and teachers and somehow I don’t put the nature of either as compatible in the same individual. People who carry guns are not the kind of teachers we want for children.

    My thoughts go along the line of using the money to remodel the school itself. That is, revise the layout of the school into secure areas where remote control of doors allow only certain people. Of course this may require that each classroom have a fire exit.

    If there’s any money left, install metal detectors and require children and teachers to wear non-metal clothing.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 10:30 a.m.

    But, Dude, air marshals currently riding on airplanes have "friable" bullets in their weapons. They won't penetrate pressurized aircraft hulls. How many gun toting CCP holders use them? And do you have any idea what a bullet will do a pressurized airplane at FL 32?

    It might also help all of us if news media like DN and others would report on whether or not guns used in incidents like the murder/suicide in Helper yesterday, or the recent domestic violence shooting in Roy would report on whether or not the weapon used in each incident was "legal" or "illegal."

    Many people would be very surprised to learn who many violent crimes are committed with supposedly "legal" guns.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 10:04 a.m.

    I actually don't think having teachers with concealed gun permits is a horrible idea. It is a lot more practical than the NRA's idea of a police officer in every school. Many schools have resource police officers already but most elementary schools do not or have one officer that serves many schools which is what they have in Provo city for example.

    But I also think Ying Fah has many great points. We need to look at our boys and do more for our boys and have this discussion. Many as he says are alienated and angry, many turn to suicide, sadly some turn to homicide before they commit suicide. We need to have frank discussions about mental illness, social alienation, bullying in school, parenting, and gun issues. This is a complicated, multi-faceted issue. It isn't all bout guns, it isn't all about mental illness either.

  • The Dude Abides Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 9:54 a.m.

    We should do the same thing with airports. Rather than elaborate security screening to ensure there are no weapons, we should require one third of the passengers to be armed. Problem solved.

  • Mike in Cedar City Cedar City, Utah
    Dec. 24, 2012 9:29 a.m.

    One more writer that has drank the NRA cool aid. Do you have any idea of the cost to secure every elementary school in America with permanant police trained and armed guards. Then if the NRA has its way consider the cost of securing every other kind of public place.

    The NRA is nuts and their real objective is just to sell guns. They really don't represent gun owners. They represent the Gun manufacturing industry.

    We should ban assault weapons and large capacity clips. And the Goverment should buy back these illegal arms in the same way that bought gold when we went off of the gold standard.
    LaPierre says it won't work. Well, one thing is for certain it will not work for them.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 8:41 a.m.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong!

    Insanity, insanity, insanity.

    But to the NRA and gun companies, it's money, money, money.

    Yup, yup, yup.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 8:03 a.m.

    I'm sure the NRA has nothing to gain financially by suggesting that teachers buy guns... Right? Noooooo financial rewards in selling more guns and ammo, right? I'm sure the NRA isn't motivated by additional profits. I'm 100 percent sure the NRA is merely just looking out for the security of Americans, right?


    Sorry, I couldn't keep a straight face.

    Folks, are we really this gullible?

    Of course the NRA would suggest that more people need to be armed! Of course! Were you really expecting them to take responsibility for what is happening to our society? Do you really expect them to suggest hurting their sales?

    The only logical response from the NRA was to suggest more guns be given out to citizens. They are a business! They are in it to make money!

    Have you ever seen an oil company advocate driving a hybrid? Ever seen Apple suggest you go with a PC? Ever seen Mitt Romney or the Koch Bros advocate stricter environmental regulations and fewer corporate bailouts?

    Of course not. These folks are in it for themselves. The NRA is looking out for numerio uno!

    Are we really going to fall for it?

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 7:51 a.m.

    I have an even better idea.

    Lets put cruise missiles and bazookas in schools too. We could also store tanks in sheds that also store football equipment and landscaping tools. That way, if any "bad guy" were to attack a school boy they would pay for it!

    We could also get rid of our police and just let ordinary citizens rule. Everyone and anyone should have a gun!

    If anyone wants to know what our country would be like with teachers, priests, pastors, ordinary citizens (everyone), having guns, just look at Afghanistan. How's that working out?

    Dec. 24, 2012 7:47 a.m.

    This is what terrorism really is. We don't need foreign extremists flying planes into buildings, ending thousands of lives. All it takes is a single American with a gun in a movie theatre, a shopping mall, an elementary school. This is terrorism that will bring a great nation down. And we are doing it to ourselves.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 24, 2012 7:34 a.m.

    Cut education..substitute sewing, and cheerleading for statistics and logic and thrity years later here you have public discussion.

  • Martin Blank Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 7:26 a.m.

    I'd rather see a teacher in every gun store than an armed teacher in every classroom.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 4:47 a.m.

    I am normally a gun rights supporter, but this is an absolutely idiotic idea.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 3:32 a.m.

    Careful, there's a lot of variables here that you are too easily dismissing. Does a security endorsement guarantee that a student will never be able to get ahold of the teacher's firearm? With the thousands of schools in America and the hundreds of students in each of them, it would take only a very small "oops" rate of overly curious or malicious students finding an improperly handled gun to completely erase any benefit. And do you really believe that junior high and high school age students carefully planning a Columbine-style shooting wouldn't know which teachers were armed?

  • Ying Fah Provo, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 2:32 a.m.

    For every Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook shooter), James Holmes (Aurora shooter), Seung-hui Cho (Virginia Tech shooter), Jared Loughner (Gabby Giffords shooter), Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine shooters), and all the other mass killers identified in headlines across the nation, there are thousands of other young people caught up with anger, unidentified, who fantasize doing the same thing.

    These are not young people identified as mentally ill or somehow seen as an imminent threat. They are isolated and angry, and no one has yet suggested what takes them over the edge to commit such horrendous act. They can be the children of clergymen, law enforcement, pillars of the community. There is nothing about them to easily identify them. However, if they ever take it on themselves to act in an anti-social fashion as did the other killers, they will find a gun and carry out their attack.

    It doesn't have to be a school. Or a theater. Or a college campus. It could be a hospital. A church. An ice cream store, restaurant, or any other public place. They will commit their horror because they have a gun and they can.

    Or they can be helped.

  • Mad Hatter Provo, UT
    Dec. 24, 2012 1:30 a.m.

    Schools, libraries, churches . . . any public place where innocent people congregate is a possible locale. Perhaps what eventually would be desired by the NRA is an armed force patroling the public space as they do in China, Russia, and other places which provide maximum security, soldiers with automatic weapons, highly visible, going about "insuring the public safety."

    However, nothing is perfect and those with the firepower and the will to wreak havoc will always find a way to cause death and mayhem. No place is safe with committed assailants with the weapons required to carry out the mass killings we've seen over the last few years.

    Basically, the NRA wants people (it doesn't matter really if it's "good guys" or "bad guys") to have access to the same armaments as the military just in case they have to fight the government in the end. According to the NRA, increasing police presence is not enough because the police are essentially representatives of the government, you can't really depend on them, and "the people" may one day have to take up arms and defend themselves against a democratically-elected government they don't like.