GOP's challenge: To make capitalism work for all

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  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 26, 2012 7:42 a.m.

    To "pragmatistferlife" what distortions? The only distortions are the ones that make socialism or communism look like viable social-economic systems. Whenever they are tried, they always end in failure. Capitalism works, until it is so burdened with socialism that it collapses both systems.

    You are the one who does not understand capitalism.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 21, 2012 11:22 p.m.

    Seriously Red you not listen or comprehend at all..clinging to capitalism? How many times do you have to be told probably all liberals on this blog are capitalists. You're the one who doesn't understand capitalism...the good it does, and the bad it's capable of.

    You really are making yourself look silly and uninformed with your constant distortions. I would bet that most of the "socialist liberals" you seem to find here have done very well by the capitalist system. Not because they are trying to destroy it but because they understand it. None of which precludes their understaning of the need for an economic system that promotes the common good.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 10:07 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" here is proof that families are not socialism or communism.

    Are your children on all of your deeds and titles?

    Do your children pay an equal portion of your bills?

    When your children moved out did they take their portion of your savings, 401K, or any stocks with them?

    Do your children have equal access to your bank account that you do?

    When your children had summer jobs, was their income added to the family checking account?

    Did your children have equal privileges to you their entire life?

    You claim to redistribute your excess wealth to your country, so tell us, what is the balance of your 401K? Is it $0?

    If you say no to any of those, you are clinging to capitalism.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 8:39 p.m.

    AS I have stated before,

    LDS Liberal does not understand the principle of Agency.

    Heaven is neither communistic NOR socialistic.,

    Heaven operates on the principle of Agency of Man, Free will.

    People do good and do right based on their choice.

    Zion was created on earth by the same principle.

    AS the scriptures state it is not good thing if man must be commanded (or compelled by a central government) to do good or do what is right.

    Capitalism works,
    but men are imperfect.

    But if men are taught correct principles they can govern themselves, and it is the ONLY way Zion is created.

    Maybe the left should arguing about which principle we should be teaching, that is just an excuse to teach no principles, and thus exacerbate the problems you can encounter in Capitalism with unprincipled and immoral people, such as greed,

    and imposing a tyrannical government to control all people anf corporations, and well... everything and everyone.

    What price for true freedom will are you willing to pay? And what risks are you willing to live with?

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 21, 2012 6:23 p.m.


    To quote Kent C. DeForrest:

    “Did I say anything about communism or socialism? I mentioned only cooperative economics, which is different from both. Please at least read before responding.”

    I am not only fond of capitalism; I study markets for a living (or at least part of it). Specifically, I am an advocate of the semi-strong version of the Efficient Market Hypothesis. I think markets do LOTS of things well, but that there are some inefficiencies in the best markets and that some markets are more efficient than others.

    I fully agree with the First Presidency statement you quoted. My point was simply that you were misreading the text of the Proclamation on the Economy. Nothing more.

    We can all talk here. But please, let’s stick to reality.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 5:23 p.m.


    Did I say anything about communism or socialism? I mentioned only cooperative economics, which is different from both. Please at least read before responding.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 21, 2012 5:22 p.m.

    Twin Lights", "LDS Liberal", and "Kent C. DeForrest, thank you all for making such coherent, truthful, and cogent arguments against Red Shirts, non sense. Red Shirt..Democrats, liberals, and progressives are all capitalists..the reason capitalism is such a great idea is not because it is a single immutable set of principles and processes but because of it's flexablity. You are simply wrong, and out of touch.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 4:04 p.m.

    Your quote from 1942 is moot, RedShirt.

    Familiies are Communist.
    Families are Socialist.

    I produce everything, and redistribute my wealth to my family.
    I do not barter,
    I do not expect anything in return,
    I do it becasue it is my personal Responsiblity to do so.
    I do it for the love of my family.

    Same with being an American.

    I produce, I put in, it gets re-distrubuted as usary to my country.
    I do not barter,
    I do not expect anything in return,
    I do it becasue it is my personal Responsiblity to do so.
    I do it for the love of my COUNTRY.

    Heaven is Communist.
    Heaven is Socialist

    I produce, it gets redistributed, everything I do goes to my God and our family.
    I do not barter,
    I do not expect anything in return,
    I do it becasue it is my personal Responsiblity to do so.
    I do it for the love of my GOD and our family.

    The only Capitialists I remember in the Bible were the Money Changers.
    and Jesus cast them out.

    Is there Capitalism is Heaven RedShirt?
    Does one buy low and sell high, and keep the profit for himself?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 3:12 p.m.


    Utah's first permanent craft guild (Labor Union) was established 24 February 1852 and Brigham Young opened the First Annual Printers' Festival
    1852 was also the beginings of the first national union, the National Typographical Union.

    On 13 January 1855 a more formalized Typographical Association of Deseret was organized, consisting only of Mormon typographers, who were associated with the church-owned DESERET NEWS.


    Did you catch that RedShirt, Deseret News started the very 1st one in the Valley-O.

    But wait - there's more:---

    In the Fourth of July parade of 1851 in Salt Lake City, numerous groups of workers marched carrying banners with religious, political, and economic messages; and most of them had union themes. These included the blacksmiths, tinsmiths, and coppersmiths, carpenters and joiners, coopers, painters and glaziers, boot and shoemakers, stonecutters, and printers. Of the fifty-one identified trade leaders in the parade, at least forty-eight were Mormons.


    You ramblings and opinion imagininary,
    they completely lack facts, data, history and reality.

    Sorry to disappoint you.

    Labor Unions,
    along with --

    Universal Healthcare
    Communism/Socialism under the United Order
    ReDistribution of Wealth
    Ecofriendly doctrine
    and on and on....

    Yes, Mormons were Liberals long before they turn Republican.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 21, 2012 3:11 p.m.

    To "Twin Lights", "LDS Liberal", and "Kent C. DeForrest" since you still think that Socialism and Communism are ok, lets get the ultimate clarifying First Presidency statement on Socialism and Communism.

    From the April 1942 confrence "Among the Latter-day Saints they speak of their philosophy and their plans under it as an ushering in of the United Order. Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan."

    Ok, tell us, how can you claim that communism and its cousin socialism are good when the First Presidency has stated that they are Satan's counterfit plans?

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 2:47 p.m.


    You need to read the editorial published by the Deseret News on May 23, 1868, titled "Capital and Labor--Employers and Employed." Most likely written by George Q. Cannon, counselor to Brigham Young and editor of the D News, the editorial was part of Young's war against the inroads of capitalism (he was trying to implement a cooperative system of economics in Utah). The editorial claimed that capital sought to "tyrannize" labor, "grind" it down, and feed "an insatiable desire" for profits and accumulation. In response, labor had reacted by doing the least amount of work possible.

    Mormons who think the Church has always been a bastion of capitalist freedom don't know their history. In the contest between economic freedom and economic equality, the Church and its scriptures always came down on the side of equality. Today, however, most Mormons have run in the other direction and resort to some of the most absurd arguments to defend an economic philosophy Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would have found abhorrent.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 2:05 p.m.

    USS Enterprise, UT

    1:23 p.m. Nov. 21, 2012


    I grow SOO tired of arguing your flawed facts, and skewed data from you radio mentors.

    1. That proclamation on the economy given by the LDS 1st presidency was from the Gilded age. It was not directed at Communist, they were even around back then. Read it - It was clearly toward the uber-wealthy Robber-Barons (Capitalistis) who could give a rip about the poor working class because they were 100% about profits.

    Labor Unions changed all that.

    Today's Conservatives are no different. They long for those Good 'o Days.
    In fact it's even worse now. 1% owns 80% of everything, and the rest of us 99% fighting over the table scraps of the remaining 20% they must drop occasionally to keep a revolution from happening.

    2. Show me ONE LDS scripture or docrine promoting wealth at the expense of poor and needy, sick and afflicted, Old and the young. ONE.

    3. Who crushed the Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, Eastern Europe and open the Iron Curtain?
    LABOR Unions - not Capitialists.

    Meanwhile, Capitalists are strenthening the 1.2 billion Communists living in China as we speak.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 21, 2012 1:44 p.m.


    I think your reading of the text is in error. It says

    "The evidence of the restiveness of the people under this condition of affairs in our times is witnessed in the formation of societies of grangers, of patrons of husbandry, trades’ unions, etc., etc., combinations of the productive and working classes against capital. Years ago it was perceived that we Latter-day Saints were open to the same dangers as those which beset the rest of the world. A condition of affairs existed among us which was favorable to the growth of riches in the hands of a few at the expense of the many. A wealthy class was being rapidly formed in our midst whose interests, in the course of time, were likely to be diverse from those of the rest of the community. The growth of such a class was dangerous to our union; and, of all people, we stand most in need of union and to have our interests identical."

    Trade unions are not evidence of evil but of other societies (like the grange) formed because of the dangers of wealth concentration. The Saint's answer to this was the cooperatives.

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 1:25 p.m.

    @ Roland- I've read enough of your posts over the years to know that post WW2 America is your Shangri-La. Conservatives also remember that time fondly but not because of 90% tax rates on high income earners that btw still only collected around 20% of GDP. It was also a time of smaller Federal Government proportional to GDP. It was time when maybe 5% of the Federal Budget went to transfer payments. It was a time when people actually got married and had children and belonged to churches and civic organizations. They also didn't rip down crosses and ban nativity scenes or cringe at the sight of the Ten Commandments. It was a wonderful time indeed.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 1:23 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" you realize that the quote that you keep using from A Proclamation on the Economy is speaking about Communism and Socialism. You see, under those systems, wealth is concentrated into the hands of a very few. You would know this if you bothered to read it, and understand the historical context of what they are saying.

    In the 3rd paragraph it states that the formation of trade unions, and other organizations that work against capital is evidence of the evil that was creeping into the LDS community. Lets review, who loves the unions, capitalists or socialists? If the formation and growth of unions is a sign of something evil creeping into society, and you support an economic philosophy that supports unions, what does that say about the economic philosophy you support? (Here is a hint, it isn't good.)

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 1:06 p.m.

    When management of Hostes gets huge pay boosts and the actual workers are continually being asked to take pay cuts. This isn't capitalism working for everyone. And unless it works for everyone, it won't be accepted by everyone.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 10:45 a.m.

    To KDave: Absolutely no one is proposing that the U.S. become like the Soviet Union. That's a straw man argument. In fact I know very few Democrats who even want the U.S. to become like Denmark or Finland. My personal preference is for Eisenhower era America. Was Ike a socialist or a communist? If not, then why was the share of the national economy going to workers 15% higher, as a percentage of GDP, than it is now.

    That's 15% of GDP that used to go to workers that now goes to corporate profits and the very rich. As a point of comparison that's equal to all taxes collected by the federal government from all sources.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 9:58 a.m.

    A Proclamation on the Economy
    from the First Presidency and Twelve

    To The Latter-day Saints -

    "The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression…"

    . . . . .

    "One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals. The very liberties for which our fathers contended so steadfastly and courageously…are endangered by the monstrous power which this accumulation of wealth gives to a few individuals and a few powerful corporations.

    If this evil should not be checked, and measures not be taken to prevent the continued enormous growth of riches among the class already rich, and the painful increase of destitution and want among the poor, the nation is liable to be overtaken by disaster; for, according to history, such a tendency among nations once powerful was the sure precursor of ruin."

  • KDave Moab, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 9:37 a.m.

    I-Phones, HDTV, stores stocked with food and clothing at prices for all classes. These are examples of Capitalism that we all enjoy. If you can talk to someone who lived in Soviet Russia in the 70s you will understand what life without capitalism is like.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 9:13 a.m.

    "The GOP's task is not only to make capitalism more efficient; it is to make capitalism work for everyone."

    As has been pointed out, government, whether in the hands of Republicans or Democrats, can influence capitalism, but it cannot make it work as it should. And part of the reason it does not work for everyone is because of its built-in focus on efficiency. Increasing productivity enables companies to produce the same amount of product with fewer workers. Combine this with shipping jobs overseas, and you can see why less of profit reaped through increased efficiency goes to the workers. It all goes to the executives and "owners," even when they are absentee owners.

    What we need is to redefine who actually owns capital so that the people who create profit get a proportional share of it. Until that happens, the system will go on becoming increasingly dysfunctional, inequality will increase, and there will be insufficient disposable income to keep businesses in business.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 21, 2012 8:21 a.m.

    I thought the real truth kernal in this article was "It is not enough to promote growth in an economy where a personal benefit from overall growth is far from assured. " This is the key difference between the Repbulican and Democratic messages. Democrats are captialist despite the rantings on this thread of the usual suspects. It's taken 30 years and changing demographics but this lack of trust in our ability to fairly share in a growing economy is what people feel in their heart..primarily because they live it in their pocket book. To dwaynerichards, what you completely fail to see is that the only organization available to those who are living this nightmare is the government. Unions use to do the job but no more. So dwayne if you and the republicans keep denying this you all will become irrelevant.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 21, 2012 8:04 a.m.

    JoeBlow has said it best. It is not that capitalism does not work but that it works less well than in our recent past.

    Dwayne Richards,

    If it is not a govt's role to see that the economic system is working, then who's role is it? No one's? Not likely. Govt has a significant role in shaping and forming economies and vice versa. Hence, our nation. No, this is not a call for govt to meddle in every issue of the economy. Rather for an understanding that govt has a role in the long term "shape" of the economy - to provide the trellis like structures on which the vines of the economy can flourish and grow organically.

    But any govt that ignores that role does so to its peril.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 7:33 a.m.

    This editorial contains a few fragments of good thought. But it stops far short of where it should. One need look no further than the debacle playing out at Hostess Brands.

    Unions did not destroy this company. It was destroyed by poor management and a flock of vulture capitalists and outfits similar to Bain Capital.

    The workers are the losers. The vultures will walk away with Golden Parachutes. One example being the CEO who just recently was handed a 300% pay raise. Greg Rayburn is now being paid $100,000 PER MONTH for his "services."

    At least nine other top executives of the company also received massive pay raises, including one who received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one that brought his salary from $375,000 to $656,256.

    But that's Obama's fault, isn't it?

    (Anyone may verify this information by Googling "hostess ceo salary")

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Nov. 21, 2012 6:50 a.m.

    Capitalism certainly can and does work for all but not nearly as well as it used to.

    The "capitalism pie" can be shared by all, but that requires that everyone's slice is a bit smaller. That used to be acceptable. It no longer is.

    Corporate CEO's used to make 30 times their worker wages.
    Now, it is over 300 times.

    Capitalism is certainly working better for some than others.

    And NO, I am not advocating that CEO's and workers are paid the same, so don't do that straw-man.

    What I AM saying is that the disparity in pie slices does not need to be so great.

  • dwaynerichards Provo, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 2:27 a.m.

    "Moving forward, the GOP's task is not only to make capitalism more efficient; it is to make capitalism work for everyone."

    Since it's not a role or responsibility of government to make "capitalism more efficient" or to "make capitalism work for everyone" there's no reason for the Republican Party to attempt to undertake an impossible task.

    "They need to show more creativity in making economic advancement a realistic prospect — by promoting, say, high school and college completion, or increasing the rewards for work, or providing practical help to families with children."

    We are back to the same big government and intrusive mentality that Republicans should be quick to reject if they want to be a viable alternative to the Democratic Party. It's not the role of the federal or state government to promote high school and college completion. In many instances individuals (not government) should help young people realize a college degree isn't right for everyone and attempting to complete college may ruin their life.

    Individuals, families and communities, not governments, should provide help to families with children. Government doesn't reward work. A livelihood are your rewards or you suffer for being a parasite

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 12:32 a.m.

    Good to see that some conservatives finally "get it". Our economy has not been working for average Americans for a long time now. Wages and benefits are stagnating or are in outright decline, while the spoils accruing to the wealthiest are increasing by leaps and bounds.

    Our leaders in the post WWII age understood that a stable country required a stable and prosperous working class. Over the years our leaders seem to have forgotten that valuable lesson.