I knew the comments section would be much more entertaining than this article.
@kanthony"Recruiting Presentations"?I believe
he's referring to the missionary discussions. @KTCJohn and
others who made comments along this line"Or was it actually his lack
of a desire to live the commandment to be sexually pure and chaste?"Get over yourselves. Seriously. Do you think other Christian churches
don't have similar beliefs against adultery?@Wyomingguy"and Democratic Party simply adores President Clinton and how they seem to
have totally forgotten his immoral behavior while leading the country. Its Never
mentioned"We haven't forgotten, it's basically
impossible to forget it but I have to ask... why does it have to be mentioned
all the time and why can't we like other things about Clinton like his
Seems like I have heard these descriptions of our view on heaven before. They
come from anti-Mormon literature and films put out by other groups, particularly
the Baptist Church, which Clinton is affiliated with. I have family that is
Baptist, so I have seen many anti-Mormon literature. "Recruiting
Presentations"? Latter-Day Saints don't have those. It sounds like he
went to a Baptist revival and heard the pastor say our beliefs about heaven. My
opinion is that he is only saying this to get political attention.
Was it the non-inclusiveness of Mormonism, which he clearly misunderstood, that
thwarted his progress? Or was it actually his lack of a desire to live the
commandment to be sexually pure and chaste? His non-embrace of the restored
gospel says much more about Bill than it does about so-called Mormonism.
There is something else that we as members need to understand and that is we are
required to forgive everyone regardless what they have done. We leave major
sins such as murder and such in the hands of the law. We don't take into
our own hands to become, judge, jury and executioner. Mr. Clinton made his
mistakes and though I've never called him my President, he was President of
these United States. We all have made mistakes and some of us probably some
pretty grievous ones. However, it isn't up to us to say he not done
anything to ask for forgiveness. We don't know. As the Lord has stated,
"he will forgive who he wants to forgive, as for us we are required to
forgive everyone". We are human. We aren't perfect and
neither are the prophets of God. Since, we aren't perfect we can't
require someone else to be perfect. However, too many members and probably even
myself seem to require it.
Brahmabull is right in his assessment. Mr. Clinton has a lifetime to repent of
his sins just as the rest of us. His sins are between him and his Father in
Heaven. Yes, he may have got some of the teaching mixed up. So what, it really
doesn't matter. What does matter is whether he has or will repent, just
like the rest of us.Joseph Smith once stated I believe that we would
have two surprises if we make it to the Celestial Kingdom. One surprise is that
we actually made it. Secondly, the surprise as to who else made it. Many
members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints won't even make
it. Many will be in the Terrestial Kingom, in fact this is where the bulk of
the membership will be. So before any of you decide who will be in the
Celestial Kingdom and who will not need to really understand that the only
person you have to worry about is yourself. You can't force your wives,
your children or anyone to be there. It is up to their own decisions and
What Really Really Annoys me is how the media and Democratic Party simply adores
President Clinton and how they seem to have totally forgotten his immoral
behavior while leading the country. Its Never mentioned and the man gets
"star" attention! OK, everyone makes mistakes yet Clintons lack of self
control is in my view Over the top for any national leader. As far
as LDS people being very judgmental; maybe thats true in UT but in my ward folks
are pretty easy going , Wyo folks are like that.
OK, just about everyone here missed the whole point.This exchange
had NOTHING to do with the Church or Bill's spirituality. It has
everything to do with Bill doing everything he can do to get his buddy "Big
O" reelected. The Obama administration declared over 8 months
ago that their goal would be to discreetly paint the LDS Church as
"weird", and hence discredit Romney (and by extension all Mormons). Dubious recollections which tell half-truths and inaccurate depictions
of LDS doctrine fit right into their big picture plan.
It's not too late Bill! Yeah, you'd have some repenting to do, but
don't we all.The irony is that LDS beliefs re the afterlife are
the most inclusive of any religion as far as I can tell. No one is condemned if
they didn't have an opportunity to hear the Gospel. And we're told
that the afterlife will ultimately be a pleasant place, even for those who did
awful things in this life.
It's like saying, "I don't want to go to college because I'll
have to leave all my friends who didn't graduate from high school".Just like the dropout who didn't put in the effort to graduate
can't join you as a fellow college student, those who don't accept the
gospel and repent of their sins can't make it into the Celestial Kingdom to
be with you (assuming you make it there).It doesn't mean you
can't go visit them just like college kids can still visit dropout friends.
Never going to college just because all your existing friends can't join
you is a poor decision.
It is hilarious to me that all of these people who claim they are christians on
this comment board are saying where Clinton will end up for eternity. As if they
somehow know him personally. Also it seems they are stating these things as if
they are facts, like they have died before and seen it themselves. We really
don't know how it will be there. People make mistakes. It seems they do no
believe in repentance, for if they did they would recognize that the sins he has
done have been done by many in their congregation. People can be forgiven. It is
quite sad, really. One lady even said he will be in the same place as Hitler and
Stalin - kind of a stretch, don't you think? Comparing him to 2 murdering
dictators... Right. Maybe the judgemental attitude is why alot of people are
turned off by the church.
re: Dave D; The Book was the Bible, John 8 to be exact and if I'm not
mistaken the story ends with the words, "Go and sin no more." Are you
really saying Clinton has repented and hasn't sinned since? Love to see
your sources. You may want to read that great book even further.
Saul (who became Paul) had to do a lot of repenting and confessing to the church
members of that day because the last thing they were inclined to do was trust
him. When Clinton become like Paul, then I'll let him judge me and my
We should all remember that bill clinton has been known to have memories of
events that that never happened. For example, he once stated that he had
"vivid memories" of black churches in Arkansas burning down when he was
a child. Problem was the state historian and fellow Arkansas democrats proved
there were no such incidents during that time period.Brother bill
may be the best politician of our era, which means he is the best liar. So I,
for one, don't necessarily believe this encounter ever took place.
re:USAloverI agree that I would take Clinton over the mess we have
now in the White House but what I am disappointed with in Clinton is his ability
to be "bought off". Clinton knows that our national debt is going to
destroy us and the path Obama has set us on is a disaster . Clinton knows that
raising taxes is also a business killer and will cause unemployment to go up
substantially. Clinton knows that Bain Capital is a GREAT company and is the
engine of capitalism. Clinton knows all these things and has - over the past 6
months - made comments contrary to team Obama. Then comes the DNC and suddenly
Bill has changed his thinking??I don't think so. The man and his wife are
political players first and American's second and when the political candy
promised becomes too tempting to turn away then principles are thrown out the
window. That is NOT impressive.
Bill Clinton's era of economic prosperity was largely handed to him, mostly
by the Greg Norquest faction. And we know that when Bill Clinton looks the
nation in the eye and points his finger, what he says will be the whole truth
and nothing but the truth.
I really feel bad that President Clinton was given the wrong impression on
Mormon kingdoms, I'm not sure if that was a teaching error or an
understanding error. The way I understand it is that there are several tiers to
heaven. Those allowed to live in the constant prescence of God (the highest
tier) will be those who were faithful, good people, who accepted Christ and his
atonement either in this life or the next and have recieved the ordinances of
the temple. Because not everyone will want to or have the chance to recieve the
ordinances of the temple in this life, Mormons perform temple work for the dead
that they are free to decline or accept. So while it may seem like Mormons
believe only Mormons will be in heaven, our true belief is that anyone can make
it and simply being a Mormon will not automatically get you into heaven (you
still have to accept Christ and his atonement).
Eternity is a long time. Perfection is a long road. I believe there is a path
for anyone to get to their choice of heavenly kingdom. The last will be first
and the first will be last. Those that accept the Gospel of Christ last will
receive all the blessings as the first.The reason to accept the
Gospel early in this life is to make a piece of heaven on earth...to have the
blessings of God now, not just after some time of final judgement. Heaven on
earth is not made of judges.It is better to be employed in the
vineyard of the Lord than to be in the square wondering if you will ever be
hired, even if the payment of one penny is the same.
The point Mr. Clinton was making was that Mormons believe that most will go to
heaven, even Hitler and Stalin, likely in a lesser kingdom, yet there is a
Celestial Kingdom to also aspire too.I think there are many Mormons
that only see the Celestial Kingdom as heaven, while others see heaven as any
kingdom prepared by their Father.
When the Jews brought a woman caught in adultery to Jesus before stoning her
according to the laws of Moses, Jesus eventually said to them that whoever among
you is without sin, let him cast the first stone on her. The would be stoners
went away. Then Jesus asked her if there was anyone left to condemn her. She
said, "No one Lord” Then Jesus said to her: "Then neither will I
condemn you, GO AND SIN NO MORE." Repentance is for all people. The atoning
sacrifice of the Savior is available to all. Clinton may have committed a major
sin, but if truly repentant, he could be forgiven and the Lord would remember
his sin no more. Now, if only the good Mormon people would remember the
Atonement, and the danger of judging others by casting verbal stones, they would
be so much better Mormon people. Clinton may not have agreed with those young
missionaries of long ago (neither do I because only the Lord knows the intents
of our hearts and doesn't put people into pyramids) but at least he
listened and maybe he is listening still.
"I'd take Bill Clinton over Hussein Obama any day. I know Bill Clinton
loves America. The other guy, I'm just not so sure..."That
says infinitely more about you then either of them.
When one leaves the state of Utah, it will become easier to understand former
President Clinton's point of view concerning the LDS/Mormon Church,
it's teachings, culture, etc. Take a trip, give it a listen at some
distant locations.Come on back and comment on the DN board. Share your
views. We'd all love to hear about YOUR experience :)
One of the very few decisions that I would have agreed with Bill Clinton making
in his life.
isn't it obvious to most Mormons that the majority of people in the
Celestial kingdom would not have been Mormon in this life? Do the math -
it's obvious that Mormons will be a minority there.7 billion people
in the world today14 million Mormons -perhaps 50% make it right? So do
you really think that of the nearly 7 billion people in the world today fewer
than 7 million non-Mormons will make it to the Celestial Kingdom? You
can't possibly think that 50% of Mormons will make it while less than 1% of
1% of the rest of the world will make it.
@liberateSandy, UTIn your case, you might be judgemental and
critical of others. I'm not sure how you know what some 15 Million people
think, or be in a position to determine that. What is your reference point? What
studies are you quoting?When I see a woman come in the chapel with a
sleevless dress, I walk over welcome her and introduce myself, if she is a
member of the ward, I still walk over welcome her and say hi. I think, I'm
glad that she came and joined us today. When I see an adult man with his shirt
unbottoned two buttons from the top with no sign of anything underneath....I
think that man has two buttons unbotton from the top....when I see a man not
wearing a shirt, I think that man is not wearing a shirt. When someone passes
judgement and uses a sweeping generalization of a group of people I think that
person is passing unfair judgement. Hitler blamed the Jews-gays-ethnic groups
etc, Demos blame repubs, repubs blame demos, low income blame rich, lazy worker
blames boss, unions blame business...you can go on
I'd take Bill Clinton over Hussein Obama any day. I know Bill Clinton
loves America. The other guy, I'm just not so sure....
Seems strange to me that a well-educated person such as Bill Clinton would go
out and share such a misinformed explanation about what heaven means to
believers of a religion to which he has no affiliation. It seems somewhat ironic
that he would purposefully distort any religion when the Barrack Obama, the
candidate he endorses, puts out a statement that says, "we condemn efforts
to offend believers of all religions." His thoughts are incorrect. He knows
better. He was purposefully not caring if he offended the LDS people so he could
take a swipe at Romney. At this point in the election the masterful campaigner
is trying to instigate a defensive response from Romney or, at least, those who
support him. Those who point out the obvious about how the commandment against
adultery would be a more likely "sticking point" for Clinton are simply
falling for the ploy. If someone tries to pick a fight with you so they can
bring you down to their level, even if they insult your beloved mother or your
religion, it's best to just walk away.
I don't think Brother Bill has a really good history with truth telling.
However, if he is telling the truth, it's clear he never received a
testimony from the spirit or he wouldn't be saying what he did about the
LDS belief in Heaven. Bill Clinton reminds me of a Shakespearian
tragic hero. He had the capacity to be a great president or even a great man.
Unfortunately, he has always had a tragic flaw--his lack of character.Bill's not evil. But, Bill and "The Truth" have, unfortunately,
been distasnt strangers for many years.
Dear Liberate,Sleeveless dress, my thoughts? Nonmember or less
active, therefore needs someone (me) to make sure to help her feel comfortable
and welcome.Man with buttons undone? No thoughts at all. I
don't make a habit of trying to peer down men's shirts.Love your neighbor. Be kind to all. It's not rocket science and most
members I know are doing very well at both things. And the ones who are not?
Repeat the first two sentences of this paragraph as often as required.
The good thing about this life is we all make choices, mostly based upon our
belief system. Were we to truly love ourselves we would be less likely to judge
someone else. Too often we judge ourselves by tle laws of mercy and others by
the laws of the land.When we are perfect we are encouraged to become
stone throwers, til then we sin when we cast stones or judgement on others.
I was raised a Catholic and still practice my religion through deeds. When I
was young (10?), a friend took me to his church; I have no idea now what
denomination. It was interesting but missed something. When I told my Sainted
Irish mother that I went there, I am happy to report I still have my head.It is sad how judgmental people can be. Having the tryst with Monica was a
mistake but when you see what the impeachment prosecutor was doing at night
maybe you should direct your attention to his failures (Gingrich). Leaving a
wife because she was "too ugly to be a first lady"? Just how much of a
hypocrite can you be? Maybe the far Right is there just for people like you,
makes finding you easier for your brand of god.Everyone makes mistakes.
As others have said "Judge not least you be judged". Ask your spouse.
Wow,Quite the negativity (from many, some took the high road)
towards someone who seriously thought about your religion.Is the
bashing because he has some moral failings, (which I assume that you dont), or
is it because he is a political foe, or is it because he turned you down?And I thought religion was supposed to reach out to those with
imperfections. Instead, you denigrate.
@3grandslams - who knows? If he had joined the church, maybe he could have had
the Spirit strengthening him to resist temptation in the first place. ;-)@Aggielove - Obama shows his love for America by wanting to correct
what's wrong with it and make it better. Conservatives show their hatred
for America by trying to keep it stuck where it is, if not make it worse.
Oh come on. If Clinton was actually investigating, which he wasn't, he
would have been more interested in the multiple wives thing.
This is Slick Willie at his best. He is merely campaigning for anti Mormon
(Romney) votes by casting Mormons as elitist "better than you" people.
It's funny that people can only remember Clinton for his personal foibles.
In my opinion he was the best President from a policy standpoint in my lifetime.
He balanced the budget, he reformed welfare, and insured millions of children.
But all people can talk about are his foibles. His foundation does more good for
more people than any former president I can think of. Not many of his critics
can lay claim to doing a fraction of the good this man has done, since his
presidency. He certainly made mistakes, and has a huge target on his back. But
he stays in the public eye and continued to try to make the world a better
Samwise nailed it. Too bad Bill couldn't be told that at the time his
concerns first surfaced. What a remarkable day we have that heads of
state and presidents discuss the Plan of Salvation!
It is amazing to me how my feelings toward Clinton have mellowed over the years.
He was a talented man. IS a talented man I suppose. He clearly has a way with
people and could teach Mitt Romney quite a bit in that regard. So what if his
politics are different than mine. I don't have to hate him just because I
didn't vote for him.As far as knowing how he'll be judged,
I know he'll get the same grace I desperately need. What that judgement
will yield is not up to me.Personally I can't imagine a ward
described by some that judges others so easily. My little branch welcomes a
broad range of fashions, political beliefs, family structure, etc. I don't
know if living 10,000 miles away from SLC has anything to do with it but it
To deny that a person needs baptism, would be to deny Christ's words, where
He said a man must be born of God (by baptism, and power of the Priesthood, by
those who have power and authority to act in God's name)or he cannot enter
the kingdom of God.
I agree we can all work on being non-judgmental! As for having folks come to
church that were wearing sleeveless etc. I think that just alerts us to the
opportunity to greet and extend friendship to folks that might not be regular
attenders. Sorry to hear that President Clinton misunderstood a lot of LDS
teachings. A good reminder that we need to patiently explain to those that might
not yet fully understand.
Mr. Clinton, (for whom I voted), where do you think the Catholics think they are
going? Or the Baptists, or the Methodists or the Lutherans?? To the top. I
expect every religion to believe their way is the right way, or else, why even
have a message or a church? I hear many people tell me Mr. Clinton was a great
president, perhaps; yet that doesn't make his 2012 views okay; his
endorsing same gender marriage three years ago was a disappointment; same goes
for Schumer of New York and Biden of Delaware and Reid of Nevada, they all put
law school and popularity over the Bible and principle.
In the next life we will all associate with those with whom we are most
comfortable. And we will be happy to be with them and not others that would
make us uncomfortable. Who makes us feel comfortable being around says much
about us, not them. JMHO
I personally believe that every one of us - everybody - will be surprised at
what heaven is. Indications from Joseph Smith tells us that even the Telestial
level of heaven (you know, where Hitler and Stalin are believed to be headed) is
unfathomably more glorious than the veil of tears we currently inhabit. Further, as the article mentioned from the LDS Newsroom, the highest
levels are for everyone that wants them. Making the Celestial glory is not like
trying out for your high school basketball team, with the less capable getting
cut. Basically, all honorable people who are valiant in the testimony of Christ
make it. I don't know of any time limit for those that are moving forward.
God is not going to say, "sorry bub, you're moving too slow,
you're done."But I have observed a social phenomenon that
I'll call the National Enquirer effect. People love to see celebrities get
their comeuppance. Readers feel that their lives of quiet desperation are
brightened when the rich and famous have to endure indignity. Clinton is rich
and famous, and the thought of him going to hell sounds really great to some
Boy, this isnt the first time bill has gotten something wrong.
If Bill goes to the Celestial Kingdom (anything is possible, he still has the
chance to repent of his sins and accept the Gospel, either in this life or the
Spirit World, and it is not my place to judge where anyone will end up even when
I am polar opposite politically and think some of the stuff he has done in is
life is disgusting), he actually wouldn't have to leave his friends behind
who don't make it to the Celestial Kingdom, because those in the Celestial
Kingdom can visit those in the lower kingdoms.
Mormons should not be as judgmental as they are, I agree with that. However, I
think I have seen just as much people be judgmental against Mormons as Mormons
being judgmental. As for the questions raised by liberate, I personally
don't really think anything when I see those people. I have not gotten to
know them, so how can I judge them? That is honestly my first thoughts, however
I will admit that it didn't used to be.Bill (or the
missionaries that taught him) frankly got the idea of the Kingdoms of Glory
wrong. You don't actually have to be a Mormon in this life to go to the
Celestial Kingdom. Those who accept the gospel in the post-mortal Spirit world
have the same opportunity as those who accept it in this life. I actually
believe that there will be far more people in the Celestial Kingdom who were not
Mormon in this life than those who were, considering the very very small
percentage of the World's population that is/has been/will be Mormon in
this life. The atonement of Christ extends beyond the bounds of this mortal
As a devout practicing Mormon I will say Mormons are among the most judgmental
and critical people out there. If you don't believe me, ask yourself what
your first thought is when you see a woman walk into a chapel with a sleeveless
dress. Ask yourself what you think when you see an adult man with his shirt
unbuttoned from the top two buttons but no sign of anything underneath. We are happy to pat ourselves on the back for our adherence to the word
of wisdom, law of chastity, etc., but forget the very basics of the Gospel
itself, charity and service of those around us. It will be interesting to see
who really does make it to the top.
@atl134You have demonstrated why that particular scripture is NOT
about judging others,but is about being a hypocrite!The
scriptures, in context say God MUST judge us as we judge others else we will be
guilty of hypocrisy,therefore judge righteously!That is
what those scriptures are all about, why no one gets it is puzzling.except the desire to want to point fingers.---@Californian#1@94131You nailed it. God does not want to
leave anyone behind, but agency means we must be held accountable for our
choices and actions.---@Dave DChrist
never forgave the woman as the story is recorded (he would not immediately
condemn her and punish her according to the law of moses), he simply said go
and sin no more. If she repented she would then earn forgiveness according to
the new law.Lets's understand and get the scriptures right and
not just flippantly, ignorantly and unrighteously judgingly throw out
Open mouth - insert foot. Nuff said.
I wonder what Bill's friends thought about this: "He didn't want
to go to Heaven and leave me. Am I to be happy that he wanted to stay with me,
or upset that he thought I was not going to heaven?" Greater love hath no
man than this that he give up his life for his friend. This is probably not the
intended context.I don't think Clinton has done anything for
which he can not be forgiven and thus get into Heaven. But, that doesn't
mean he's not going to catch flak from us in mortality until that time.
And that may not be the christian thing to do, but hey it's fun and he
earned it.There are two reasons for everything: first, the one that
sounds good and reasonable that we tell people, and the second, the true
reason.I think were getting the first in this article."It wasn't the religion's beliefs, it was all those rules."
I'm calling the former president out. I don't believe he
ever studied Mormonism with any intent on joining. His comments are made up for
You should have stuck with it, Brother Bill! You would have discovered that the
objective of the gospel is not to leave all those friends behind, but to do
everything possible to bring them along with us.
Quite honestly, I am disgusted by some of the comments of my fellow
"Saints" on this article.
Sounds like a lot of people on here want to pull that mote out of Clinton's
Wow, as a Mormon, I'm still shocked that we feel we can assign people to
Kingdoms. I think we'll be surprised who actually is in the Celestial
Kingdom.Once the majority of Mormons become less judgmental, I think
more of us would actually be happier, more loving people and perhaps the outside
world might view us more favorably. JMHO
Please tell me that all of you that are posting these pious judging comments are
not LDS. Not that I would expect more from LDS, but this is an LDS paper and an
LDS related article and yet some of the comments are not the kind of comments
that I would want to hear from my fellow members of the church. So
while you were all passing judgement, did you not notice that what he claims he
was taught is not what the church teaches? "Zeke Miller, reporting for
BuzzFeed, added that the "two or three Mormon missionaries" teaching
young Clinton described heaven "as a pyramid with many levels that put
Hitler and Stalin at the very bottom, faithful Mormons on top, and everyone else
in between." Sadly these missionaries were teaching an opinion, not
doctrine, no one knows for sure where Hitler and Stalin will be, they too have a
chance to repent. Also, there will be many people, besides faithful Mormons on
top. Question, is a faithful Mormon one that passes judgement?
He stopped investigating after the 4th discussion where it says you can't
smoke weed (inhaling or not) or have extramarital relations (including White
Too bad he didn't stick with it. He had a lot of talent. He wasted a ton
"hatred of the USA" where in the world do you people come up with this
@Henry DrummondBut aren't you judging someone who is judging someone
who is judging Bill Clinton? For that matter am I judging you for judging
someone who is judging someone who is judging Bill Clinton?@Aggielove"rather purely insane elite attitude and hatred of the
USA."Well that's just silly.
@Dave DI'm not sure of the name of the book either, but I think
its the same one that says "judge not that you be not judged."
3 grand slamsPeople make mistakes. Wait, it's that what Christ told
us?Clinton is a angel compared to Obama.Believe it.Obamas
aren't mistakes with morals, rather purely insane elite attitude and hatred
of the USA.
That's kind of what I was thinking. Slick Willie might be more concerned
about being left behind than leaving anyone else behind. I seriously doubt that
Heaven is any place for adulterers.
3grandslams,I seem to remember a story about a woman taken in
adultery. I can't quite remember the ending, but I think the same book says
something about the ability of men and women to be forgiven. What is the name of
You know Clinton is leaving himself wide open when he comments on the rightness
or wrongness of religion. After the Lewinsky affair, I'm surprised to think
he is actually going to be in heaven.