Freedom of expression applies to unpopular opinions too

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  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 9, 2012 12:47 p.m.

    @ Rifleman: "Same sex marriages attempt to duplicate the genuine article, fall short and thus cheapen the value of the real thing."

    When you use a thing for the reason for said thing, that is called circular reasoning.

    Your argument that same-sex marriage should be prohibited because it is different and the difference makes it counterfeit and it is counterfeit because it is different and therefore should be prohibited is circular reasoning.

    To use your money example, nickels and dimes are different - but that difference does not automatically make one of them counterfeit. Coins are different from bills, American money is different from Canadian money, etc., etc. - none of that in and of itself makes any of that money counterfeit.

    You may not like same-sex marriage, but your dislike is not enough to make it counterfeit. I don't like the fact that Brittany Spears was married for 72 hours - that doesn't make it a counterfeit marriage. I don't like the fact that Edwards and Gingrich cheated on their wives - but that doesn't make their marriages counterfeit.

    You have yet to provide any reason beyond your personal disagreement - which is not a valid reason.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 9, 2012 11:55 a.m.

    Re: Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    "...provide one reason why same-sex marriage should be on the list of prohibited marriages"

    For the same exact reason why the Federal Government prohibits counterfeit money. Same sex marriages attempt to duplicate the genuine article, fall short and thus cheapen the value of the real thing.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 8, 2012 3:47 p.m.

    @ Rifleman: Having a person married to more than 1 person causes issues with inheritance, power of attorney, medical power of attorney, survivor benefits, legal responsibility, tax exemptions, and numerous other things. This has all been explained to you before.

    Minors, as a general rule, do not have the mental, emotional, or psychological maturity necessary to make certain decisions - which is why they are not only prohibited from marrying without parental consent, but from getting their ears pierced, getting tattoos, seeking medical care and most medical procedures, opening bank accounts, and signing contracts (just to name a few things). They are also prohibited from voting or joining the military.

    Closely related individuals cannot marry because of the increased possibility for birth defects.

    All this has been discussed with you before.

    Now stop throwing around red herrings and provide one reason why same-sex marriage should be on the list of prohibited marriages.

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    Aug. 8, 2012 10:27 a.m.

    "ONE good reason why "the public" should have any say at all in somebody else's marriage?"

    Stupid question or statement number 1, and the answer is = because "somebody else's", in an in your face manor, is asking the public to sanction it legally!

    "to spend it denying others the benefits he enjoys is simply hypocrisy"

    Stupid question or statement number 2, and the answer is = We all have exactly the same rights! The problem it that a certain segment of the population chooses to be deviant or perverse, and they want the remainder of the population to accept and sanction their actions, in a public an legal format!

    Yeah yeah, we all have a nieghbor, friend, relative or aquaintance who is gay, but that doesn't mean wrong is not wrong, and right is not right. It's still our duty and our right to stand up for our beliefs!

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 8, 2012 6:20 a.m.

    Re: Bebyebe UUU, UT
    "No one can invalidate your marriage except you."

    If you want to get married in Utah you must obtain a marriage license. Go to your county clerk's office with your future bride/or groom as the case may be. Yes, there are some restrictions:

    Marriage Between Relatives:
    You cannot marry your first cousin, or anyone related more closely than a first cousin, such as an aunt, uncle, niece, nephew, parent or child, brother or sister. However, first cousins can marry if both are over 65, or, if both parties are over 55, if the court finds that they are unable to reproduce.

    The following marriages are void in Utah:
    When one party is married to someone else.
    When a party is a minor, unless consent has been given.
    When a party is divorced, but the decree is not final.
    When the parties are of the same sex.

    Makes perfect sense to me.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Aug. 8, 2012 1:55 a.m.

    Freedom of speech is a total baloney. Remember the Main Street plaza debate for several years back? The ACLU, Unitarian Street and the Street Preacher Fellowship all got together to sue Salt Lake City, demanding the right to protest on LDS Church property? How many times did these folk all scream and yell about the First Amendment, only to do a complete 180 when Boyd K. Packer said something in General Conference they didn't like.

    Freedom of speech, freedom of religion. Not if the Thought Police win.


    "I am more worried about nuts with guns interferring with my right to assemble at the church, movie or school of my choice."

    I agree, but if the far left have their way, they will be the ones who decide what church you're allowed to go to.


    Tell me, do you agree with the seemingly endless comments I've read online over the years which say that churches that will not marry same-sex couples should loose their tax-exempt status or suffer other government sanctions.

    Now tell me whose trying to force their beliefs onto others?

  • Bebyebe UUU, UT
    Aug. 7, 2012 5:20 p.m.

    No one can invalidate your marriage except you.

    If it's threatened that easily you have more problems than others' private lives.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Aug. 7, 2012 11:15 a.m.

    Re: "All of you who support Dan Cathy's freedom to express himself . . . are nothing more than big hypocrites."

    Hey -- where do you get off calling me "big?"

  • George Bronx, NY
    Aug. 6, 2012 7:52 p.m.

    and no one is arguing with that so what would be your point? the mayors where wrong. Cathy has a right to speak his mind and we have the right to respond with our voices and our wallets.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 6:34 p.m.

    The Bill or Rights should protect "freedom of speech"; it says nothing about freedom of "expression". This is a free speech issue. Mr Cathy has the right to speak his mind.

    He and any of us can also publicize our views by print (freedom of the press) and to verbalize our religious beliefs (freedom of religion). All are First Amendment rights; Congress can make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 5:33 p.m.

    People are misreading the those of us who oppose Chick Fil A's financial support for its position opposing non traditional marriage. Chick Fil A can do what ever they want with their money and "speak their mind" they just need to be willing to accept the consequences and the negative feedback. They need to man up, or is that woman up? Stop whining when others object you got what you paid for.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 6, 2012 4:12 p.m.

    @ Rifleman: Before we can determine if something is "counterfeit", we must first define exactly what the "real" thing is.

    What makes a marriage "real"? Is it the love of the two people involved? Is it their commitment to each other? Is it a willingness to share both good and bad?

    Or is the only thing that makes a marriage "real" the fact that the participants are opposite sex?

    If marriage is so mundane that it is the mere joining of two people of the opposite sex, why are you fighting so hard to preserve it?

    And if it is not that mundane, if it truly is something unique and special, why aren't you fighting harder to protect it? Why aren't you fighting to protect it from those who lie, cheat, and steal? Why are you not fighting to protect from those who abuse their partners? What about those who enter into serial marriages or who have super-short term marriages?

    If you can share marriage with Brittany Spears and Newt Gingrich, you can share marriage with same-sex couples.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 4:05 p.m.

    First. Those in power in local and state governments have no restrictions on the accepting or denying a business operation within their venue. Other than the laws that protect the welfare of people such as prohibition of race, color, creed, and such. Chick-fil-A is a business and cannot claim any exception as a religion.

    Second, switching to another venue, Abortion clinics and the processes that go on within them are legal business operations. People who do not share their view seem to go to very great lengths to disrupt their business, even to committing murder.

    Both are cases of dispute of personal belief.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 2:29 p.m.

    @red state pride;

    It's not just "free speech" - I agree that Cathy's right to open his business shouldn't be denied. I also feel that he has a right to spend his money as he pleases; but to spend it denying others the benefits he enjoys is simply hypocrisy (not to mention Anti-Christian).

    You're IN LUCK. In Utah, you CAN marry your first cousin. Go for it. If you want to marry your sister, you'll have to go to bat for it, I won't stand in your way.


    I asked for a valid reason. Your assumption about something be counterfeit is just that. An assumption.

    Perhaps we need to invalidate "Christianity" in the US as it is a counterfeit of the teachings of Christ. You can counterfeit following his teachings, but if you don't then you really aren't (do unto others as you would have them do unto you).

    You're welcome to believe whatever you want about same-sex marriages. The fact remains that it does nothing to you.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 6, 2012 2:14 p.m.

    Re: RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    "Please provide even ONE good reason why "the public" should have any say at all in somebody else's marriage? Please!"

    The counterfeit of any item always acts to cheapen the genuine product. There are basic and subtle differences between those who unite in traditional marriages and those who attempt to imitate them. Obtaining a marriage license is no different than getting any other license. There are specific requirements that must be met, and compliance is required to obtain any kind of license.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 1:25 p.m.

    No gay couple in the world has destroyed my marriage or effected it in any way. I am more worried about nuts with guns interferring with my right to assemble at the church, movie or school of my choice.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 1:04 p.m.

    @red state pride

    Your right those THREE mayors where wrong to use their power the way they did. however you seem to want to completely ignore that they where roundly criticized by the left as well as by the right and that the ACLU actually defended Cathy. As to your comments about sisters and cousins that failed argument has been addressed thousands of time over the past 20 years and is hardly worth entertaining yet again.

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 12:53 p.m.

    @ Ranch hand - this is actually a free speech issue and not a gay marriage issue. It's telling that 3 Democrat mayors tried to bully Dan Cathy and intimidate him. Their message was loud and clear - "keep your thoughts to yourself". It backfired on them but it still could make another CEO or anyone afraid to speak their mind in public.
    Some people always love to talk about "equal protection under the law". That is until you make over a certain amount of money- then your "equal protection" goes out the window. And what if I wanted to marry my (hypothetical)sister? That's against the law so I don't have equal protection. What if I want to marry my first cousin? Sorry - no equal protection there either.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 6, 2012 12:52 p.m.

    Where is the outcry over the government getting involved in - and banning - the free expression of smoke shop owners in Centerville?

    Where is the outcry over the limiting of areas in which owners of lingerie shops can exercise their free speech?

    Where is the outcry over the efforts to ban gay bars in areas in which straight bars are located?

    Congress just passed a law limiting Fred Phelps freedom of speech - where is the outcry over that?

  • George Bronx, NY
    Aug. 6, 2012 10:35 a.m.

    @john charity springs
    "This is a good example of the complete hypocrisy of the left wing." really? then why have liberals been condemning these two mayors from the beginning and why did the ACLU defend Cathy? I don't see hypocrisy, I see more of the same lies and twisted half truths coming from people like you and the letter writer trying to twist this into something it is not.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 9:59 a.m.

    @John Charity Spring;

    Please provide even ONE good reason why "the public" should have any say at all in somebody else's marriage? Please!

    We want "greater rights"? Really? You make that claim and then turn right around and tell us that YOU should have the right to decide if WE can even marry. Such arrogance and hubris is astonishing!

    You people are simply unbelievable.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 9:53 a.m.

    jcs, all of your comments apply equally to the right wing.

  • John Charity Spring Back Home in Davis County, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 9:35 a.m.

    This is a good example of the complete hypocrisy of the left wing. The left claims that the issue of same sex marriage is an issue of equal rights, but what they really want are rights that are greater than those of anyone else.

    The left wants to take away the right to speak from anyone who opposes them. Rather than allowing an open dialogue so the public can make an informed decision for itself, the left seeks to have only one opinion expressed--its own

    The left will not hesitate to bully, threaten, and intimate its opponents into silence. Fortunately, there are still some brave enough to stand up to this campaign of intimidation.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 8:39 a.m.

    Like the freedom of expression, freedom to marry also belongs to unpopular groups.

    All of you who support Dan Cathy's freedom to express himself and then turn around and deny equal protection (freedom to marry) to your fellow American Citizens are nothing more than big hypocrites.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 8:38 a.m.

    Once again, comments are aimed at condemning "liberals" for supposedly supporting homosexual marriage.

    Not so. Please don't use a spray gun to paint everyone you think is an awful liberal.

    Not all of us support homosexual "marriage." Not by a long shot. In fact, I have a neighbor who is a flaming homosexual. He fully supports their ideas of "marriage," but has Romney stickers all over his car and will let you know without room for doubt of his "conservative" credentials.

    On the other hand, I have many "liberal" friends who are as disgusted with the homosexual agenda as I am.

    If I based all my comments on his actions, I'd be rightfully enabled to condemn "conservatives" as supporting homosexual actions of all kinds.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Aug. 6, 2012 7:45 a.m.

    I also agree that those govt's were wrong in trying to limit business based on the owners personal views.

    It is so nice to be independent and not have to toe the party line on every issue.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 7:43 a.m.

    Why wasn't a protest organized against that Alderman and the Mayor of Boston? All agreed they went too far, and such a protest would have been joined by gays and straights alike.

  • EPJ Grantsville, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 7:27 a.m.

    Tolerance is often demanded but seldom returned. Boyd K. Packer.

  • freedomingood provo, Utah
    Aug. 6, 2012 7:12 a.m.

    This isn't even a controvercy. EVERYONE has condemmed the 2 people that said anything about chick-fil-a yet this carries on as if anyone were really trying to force it closed.

    Things are all in bunches about nothing.

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 7:08 a.m.

    Very well written letter. Don't you know that those who preach tolerance the loudest are always the least tolerant? Harry Reid believes people should be guilty until proven innocent and Kathleen Sebelius doesn't believe in Freedom of Religion. Emmanuel, Menino and Merino are happy to deny a person the right to make a living if their beliefs don't align with their own (alleged) beliefs. It's an upside down world in America in 2012.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Aug. 6, 2012 5:45 a.m.

    I'm with the conservatives on this one; city government should not be trying to ban his business based on those remarks. While I agree that the threat of banning Chik fil a by city government is unethical and unwarranted, your other comparisons are not consistent.

    First, bringing President Obama into this argument is a straw man. He's not involved, nor is he a business. This is not a logical argument or example.

    Second, Chik fil-a was not hammered on by an intrusive federal government, this was done at the city level, which is closer to the scale and scope of government that conservatives want.

    Third, I don't think your assertion that this would never happen to a business supporting same-sex marriage is proven. I guarantee a vocal business owner supporting same-sex marriage would run into trouble in some of the conservative small cities in the western US or deep South. We just haven't seen any on the news.

  • WestGranger West Valley City, Utah
    Aug. 6, 2012 12:50 a.m.

    The silent majority flexed its muscles last week in their support for Mr. Cathy's right to speak freely in a world where many people live in fear of the oppression of the politically correct police from the left wing. Many of them justify and even glorify their intolerance and intimidation as a crusade for what is right.Too bad that we don't see more respect and less hostility for those with whom we disagree.