To say that "the United Order, etc., are all Socialist/Communist
organizations" is to misunderstand the basic facts. These organizations are
what Socialism/Communism CLAIM to be! In reality, all forms of Socialism believe
that humans are worthless, and elite groups always end up ruling over them after
they inflict all forms of meddling into people's lives at the point of a
gun. It is Satan's plan. Under REAL principles of Zion, all contracts are
entered into willingly and it is always possible to end those contracts
willingly- not just by dying, which is the only way out of most modern Socialist
states.The rest of you: if you truly don't believe, then go get
a life and make yourself happy! Stop trolling the comments section of Deseret
News.For what it's worth: the Church IS true, there's a
ton of evidence to support the BoM's claims, and definitely to show that JS
could never have written it. And sharonna, sweetie, JS was a prophet; the
editors of Strong's Hebrew concordance were not. Read the BoM and get a
testimony from God of its truthfulness, and you will know who to believe.
One of the most compelling reasons for me to continue at accept the Book of
Mormon as of divine origin (aside from the promise in Moroni 10:4-5), involves
the deep insights into human nature that came down through its pages. I cannot
conceive a young unlettered farm boy from upstate New York being even remotely
capable of putting together a record of this length, nature and complexity in a
matter of months.The accounts of "dissenters" in its pages
ring absolutely true, and even those commenting on this page seem oblivious to
the fact that they mirror the dissenter's tactics and thus fulfill the
prophecies about the world's reaction to both the Book of Mormon and Joseph
Smith.As a student of history and as a historian, my research into
logic, and church history have strengthened rather than weakened my
convictions of these truths.
the truthHolladay, UT•4:45 p.m. June 8, 2012RE:
airnautGod didn't save those "long haired"
"liberals",he allowed them (the lamanites) to destroy the
nephites, [Sure he did]The nephites had moved way from God so
God was no longer under any obligation to protect them or help them or bless
them.[Correct – Read their “sins”, sexually immoralality
was never mentioned. These Good MEMBERS of the Church - instead chose
vanity, money, Gold and Silver, shunning the poor and the needy, and allowed the
War-profiteering Gadiantons to control their Government. But the ultimate
sins were when they shifted from Defense to starting OFFESIVE wars into Lamanite
lands. At which point, Mormon refused to lead them – He became a War
passifist, and Consciencous observer.]The Lamanites never destroyed
themselves, I see them all day everyday.Yours is the interesting
twisting of scripture to justify a political ideology.I believe you
miss the point and are being deceived and lulled into a sense of All is Well In
Zion, when in fact – you are following the very same pattern warned about
at the end of the Book of Mormon.
Bill, one could also claim that Rafael Castillo Valdez was just following the
BofM to fulfill prophecy when he petitioned the U.S. to resume military aid. But
read the Guatemala Memory of Silence report -"Why did the
violence, especially that used by the State, affect civilians and particularly
the Mayan people, whose women were considered to be the spoils of war and who
bore the full brunt of the institutionalised violence? Why did defenceless
children suffer acts of savagery? Why, using the name of God, was there an
attempt to erase from the face of the earth the sons and daughters of
Xmukane’, the grandmother of life and natural creation? Why did these acts
of outrageous brutality, which showed no respect for the most basic rules of
humanitarian law, Christian ethics and the values of Mayan spirituality, take
place?"The world is recognizing the errors of the Doctrine of
Discovery. In the future, only Mormonism will cling to the belief that
God's wrath was on the Indians and his blessing on the Europeans.We cannot learn from history with the BofM. Read Native America, Discovered
and Conquered by Robert J. Miller
Michael M: No it just proves that what was written in the Book of Mormon
actually became fulfilled prophesy. Whether you want to believe it or not
doesn't matter to me. It does matter to the our Father in Heaven. Again
it is fulfilled prophesy. Now the question should be why did they have to be
scattered. The latter is that they shall also blossom as a rose. That too is
being fulfilled even as we speak.
RE:Jeff, The sudden beginning and ending of consciousness is not logical.
True,Christians and Jews believe that God created all that exists ex
nihilo (out of nothing). Mormonism is quite different in its
cosmology, claiming that God fashioned the universe out of preexisting material.
God is eternal in some forms of LDS theology, but so is preexisting matter,
including the material used by God to create human beings. Mormonism
has more in common with ancient Greek philosophy(polytheism) than it does with
the Judeo/Christian belief in creation ex nihilo. Plato and Sarte understood
the finite makes no sense without the infinite.Creation relates to
other significant world view issues, such as the source of moral values, the
problem of evil, and God’s power. It is important that one’s belief
in creation has significant consequences and, in the case of Mormonism, the
solutions are inadequate. For instance, is the Mormon God too weak to create ex
nihilo? If so, then is he less than omnipotent?.Ecc 12:7)… the
spirit shall return unto God who gave it.In (2Tim 1:9 & Titus
1:2)God existed before time, He created time.
@ LValfre: Your question requires more than 200 words to answer. As you know,
logic can sometimes be sinuous. I'll try.1. The non-existence
of God is illogical. It is a question of faith that there is no God, but the
belief that there is no God has no evidence, whereas there is overwhelming
evidence that God exists, including eyewitness accounts. The disbeliever must
reject the eyewitness accounts, but there is no reason to do that but faith that
they are false. There are also accounts of people hearing the voice of God and
seeing angels that testified of Him.2. There is no rational excuse
for the existence of life beyond the intervention of a God. Non-believers
suggest that a combination of cosmic rays and "primordial soup" caused
life to spontaneously begin, then--in defiance of the laws of entropy--progress
upward, branching out into complex and intelligent forms. There is absolutely
no evidence that life can or has ever spontaneously begun. (This, to me, is the
ultimate superstition and magical belief.)3. The sudden beginning
and ending of consciousness is not logical.4. The complexity of
nature logically betokens a governing intelligence.
The World Council of Churches "Denounces the Doctrine of Discovery as
fundamentally opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ and as a violation of the
inherent human rights that all individuals and peoples have received from
God".The World Council of Churches also "Calls on each WCC
member church to reflect upon its own national and church history and to
encourage all member parishes and congregations to seek a greater understanding
of the issues facing Indigenous Peoples".We cannot learn from
history if we cling to 1 Nephi 13:12-16.
I found the tone in this article to be very condescending and like another
poster said, "An incredible amount of hubris, and I'm not talking about
the Nephites". I have read comments before about FAIR/FARMS being a reason
a person would leave the church and this is a prime example of what turns people
off from being Mormon. A little understanding and respect goes a long way when
dealing with people having a crisis of faith instead of labels and guilt trips
that DCP is laying on quite thick here.I am also reminded of a story
I read recently where someone viewed an inappropriate video online and it showed
up on their Facebook page as being viewed by them. Rather than owning up to the
"mistake", an excuse was made that was a mockery to honesty. I wonder
if Nephi would have made such an excuse or would he have been a man and faced up
to the mistake.
Maybe if we can get Harold Bloom and Daniel Peterson to work together on a
single article, WITH a good editor, now, that may something worth reading.
What does Mr. Peterson say about the many anachronisms?
I think that Daniel Peterson has offered some good insights, especially about
the favored, rebellious, arrogant, sinful and sneaky sons of Mosiah and Alma the
Younger.Where I would somewhat differ with the article is the idea,
of which I didn't notice any scriptural confirmation, that the Nephites had
problems assimilating the Mulekites, the people of Limhi and of Alma the elder.
I have always thought that it was the Mulekites who assimilated the remnant of
the Nephites rather than the revers. The majority of the Nephites having been
abandoned to their unhappy fate by a minority of righteous followers of the
prophet Mosiah I. The Mulekites seemed to have been impressed by them and to
have gained from them greatly. The peole of Limhi and of Alma had been just
people of Zarahemla having returned from an ill-advised trip to the Land of
Nephi. Scripture attests that the people of Zarahemla had been deeply touched
to hear of their experiences.The Nephites most usually suffered from
Pride which led them into sin and warfare. Flatterers succeeded with them
because they loved to be flattered in their waywardness as well as from the
superior vocabulary Nehor etc.
@Jeff,"I finally stopped using blind acceptance of academic
orthodoxies and began to logic and reason, which led to the Spirit, which taught
me that the Book of Mormon is true."Please explain this logic.
All my logic on the church led to disbelief.@Twin Lights,"But if not, why not? In other words, why are you here? Not meant to be a
dig. Just a question."I'm just a missionary of the truth,
sharing my love with all. Hopefully others can embrace it and receive the
tremendous benefits that I now have. No offense taken about the
dig, it was an honest question.
RE: airnautGod didn't save those "long haired"
"liberals",he allowed them (the lamanites) to destroy the
nephites, and eventually the whole country.The nephites had moved
way from God so God was no longer under any obligation to protect them or help
them or bless them.And what I gather from Moroni, the lamanites
ultimately destroyed themselves as well (and the country) from their incessant
warring.Yours is an interesting twisting of scripture to justify a
political ideology.I believe you miss the point when do that.
We can learn from history. But, do we really?I can't help but
thinking the the US is making mistakes similar to Rome (Republic & Empire).
@ LVAlfre: I am astounded that you took "Scientist's" post
seriously. S/he wrote a parody, intended to show mock believers' trust in
@ "A Scientist": You have claimed previously to have taken
Moroni's promise, sincerely attempted to have found an answer, then were
disgusted/surprised/disappointed (I'm searching for the right adjective
here; you can supply it if I haven't) that the promise was not
fulfilled.At the same time, you have been very clear about your
disbelief in God. In your current post, you even lampoon God.With
all due respect, one cannot claim to have attempted Moroni's promise while
disbelieving in God. Moroni presupposes a belief in God, and Moroni's
promise requires a previously held belief in God to quualify the questioner for
the answer. You must first resolve the issue of God's existence (resolve
it in the affirmative, I mean); then, you may ask God if the Book of Mormon is
true; if you fulfill the conditions, then and only then can the promise be
fulfilled.@ Thinkman: My experience is exactly the opposite of
yours. I finally stopped using blind acceptance of academic orthodoxies and
began to logic and reason, which led to the Spirit, which taught me that the
Book of Mormon is true.
LValfe,That is not how the promise works. Scientist misquoted it.
I have found it useful in my life and the lives of those I have taught. Also,
for none of us was it repetitive reinforcement. As converts, the reinforcement
was in the total opposite direction. Believing it went against all we were
taught.But, if the promise has not worked for you, fine. No
problem. Move on. Nothing to see here. Right? Why bother with it or with us?
Surely you have better things to do with your time and mess with a bunch of
folks who are fooled by their own wishful thinking, true?But if not,
why not? In other words, why are you here? Not meant to be a dig. Just a
question.I left the church of my youth over 30 years ago. Never
have I gone back to its newspaper or magazine sites to make any comments.
Despite my disagreements with their beliefs, I respect those who hold still
them. Plus, I have other things to do.
@A Scientist"If you ask with a sincere heart, with real intent,
having faith that it is true, the truth of my words will be manifest unto
you." - Again you have to be asking and wanting it to be true for it to be
true. This works for anything, much like the "i think i can, i think i
can" little engine that could. Repetitive reinforcement leads to belief."If you conclude that my words are false, then you lack sincerity,
lack humility, lack faith, or are otherwise unworthy." - Of course ... the
good old guilt trip that keeps you fighting for that temple recommend and
showing up for those splendid callings.@Ernest T. Bass,"Why doesn't FAIR/FARMS & Mr Peterson just answer the questions?
Their spin and convoluted possibilities make Fox New look outright objective by
comparison."You do realize the whole purpose of these groups is
to defend the faith. All studies, research, polls, archaeology finds, etc are
all hand picked for what fits the faith. Evidence found that is non supportive
or worse yet against the faith does not get brought to light by the groups.
Look at the examples Daniel Peterson uses-Alma with sons of Mosiah and Korihor.
How were these apostates stopped? Angelic visitations to Alma and Korihor was
miraculously struck dumb the moment the prophet said he would. How were other
apostates stopped and/or shown their errors in The Book of Mormon? How were
Laman and Lemuel dealt with? What happened to Sherem that made him stop his
false preaching? If the Book of Mormon is a guidebook for our day
shouldn't we be expecting the prophets to take similar actions to deal with
Why doesn't FAIR/FARMS & Mr Peterson just answer the questions? Their
spin and convoluted possibilities make Fox New look outright objective by
@Abeillehe,JS studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets. Also theology.The School of Prophets. Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory
and of power. (5:2.). Lectures on Faith.J S,“Eloheim is from
the word Eloi, God is singular number; and by adding the word heim ,it renders
it “Gods.” ( H of C, 1844). In Hebrew the form of the word
Elohim, with the ending-im, which normally indicates a masculine plural, however
with Elohim the construction is usually grammatically SINGULAR, (i.e. it governs
a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but
grammatically plural (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) . See # 430
Strong’s Hebrew concordance translates Elohim to God in the on
(KJV),.Not Gods. “In the beginning God” (Genesis 1:1
Greek Septuagint) ,not Gods.
RE: Abeillehe, JS studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets.Joseph Smith said,“Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God is singular
number; and by adding the word heim ,it renders it “Gods.” ( H of
C, 1844),Wrong.In Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im,
which normally indicates a masculine plural, however with Elohim the
construction is usually grammatically SINGULAR, (i.e. it governs a singular verb
or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural (i.e.
taking a plural verb or adjective) . See # 430 Strong’s Hebrew
concordance translates Elohim to God in the on (KJV),.Not Gods. “In the beginning God” (Genesis 1:1 Greek Septuagint) ,not
Gods. Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of
power. (5:2.). Lectures on Faith. School of Prophets. JS agrees God is
The beginning of Mosiah 26 explains clearly some factors that caused this rising
generation to fall into unbelief:5: "because of the dissensions
among the [church] brethren they [the unbelievers] became more numerous"6: "For it came to pass that they did adeceive many with their flattering
words, who were in the church, and did cause them to commit many sins"I think Dr. Peterson has been involved in this himself, but just like
him, I'm going to coyly omit specifics.
An insult to my TBM faithful parents sir.
filovirusSalem, ORRead the prayer given from the
Rameumptom;“…but we believe that thou hast elected us to
be thy holy children;“…thou hast elected us that we shall be
saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell;“…O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast
elected us,“…And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a
chosen and a holy people. Amen.”Now it came to pass that after
Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished
beyond ALL measure.To me, it's like those who listen to Rush
Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.and you said, "Also, the
Nephites didn't work in a redistribution of wealth system"[I disagree - Having ALL things in common IS precisely the definition of
re-distribution of wealth. Just as the Family unit, the United Order, Zionism,
and the Kingdom of Heaven are all Socialist/Communist organizations – I
know Conservatives have a hard time with that, but the facts are the facts.]
Wow. An incredible amount of hubris, and I'm not talking about the
If there was ever a correlation to today's political scene in America, Dr.
Peterson hit it on the head. The flattering words of the socialists leading the
children away is as obvious as anything ever was.
How very interesting it would be to know on what planet the Book of Mormon
people were inhabitants. There certainly is no evidence of their having lived
on planet earth. Anyway, the BOM is only secondary to a believe and acceptance
of the LDS faith: Joseph Smith is the key issue: if in deed the greatest unique
event in all man's history the Personal appearance of God Himself and Jesus
the Christ did congregate and speak with Joseph Smith then that is of such
gigantic significance that all other following events are just frosting on the
cake. If indeed there is a cake, and that is the question.
So professor Peterson calls out the sins of the Nephites and then tosses it over
the wall with his question "how to recognize their modern counterparts?"
No hints, no analysis or rational indiction? Looks like now anyone who reads
this can simply apply it to anyone who doesnt share his or her particular
beliefs or view of the world. Political idealogies? Scientific community? social
and cultural activists? people who drive jeeps and wear Tommy Bahama shirts? All
are fair game. Sorry, professor, your article doesnt go far enough and amounts
to a bunch of sunday school class pablum with big words.
"Do we know, though, how to recognize their modern counterparts? And,
please, don't doubt that they exist." If you know they exist, are you
not doing everyone a grave dis-service by calling them out by name, rather than
by innuendo? "We know that terrorists exists and are plotting to destroy
us... I know who they are, I know them by name". It seems that a threat
like you describe, with the information that you have, needs to be shared
broadly - for the sake of the souls that you are so desperate to save.
From the article: "Do we know, though, how to recognize their modern
counterparts?" -- Oh, come now Dr. Peterson... The comment sections of your
articles are always rife with these counterparts! How could we miss them?
I have taken Moroni's Challenge too, a number of times, and all I got was a
firm conviction that the book is contrived fiction with a lot of King James
Bible passages quoted in it.Of course, you must not dismiss my
testimony out of hand. Read my words carefully. Pray about it. Study it out in
your hearts and in your minds. Ask the Holy Phantom if it is not true. If you
ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith that it is true, the
truth of my words will be manifest unto you.If you conclude that my
words are false, then you lack sincerity, lack humility, lack faith, or are
otherwise unworthy.Trust me.
@ airnaut"That they were better [more blessed] by God, That they
deserved what God blessed them with, [That whole PRIDE of materialism]And that they should despised the poor and needy, saying they brought it upon
themselves as a judgment from God himself and so they should not be inclined to
re-distribute the wealth they’d been given so freely."I
think Alma's and Mosiah's sons were more following the Order of Nehor
than teaching what the people of land of Antionum believed. The Zoramites were
probably more associated with Lamanites than with the Nephites, whereas the
Order of Nehor was a competing religion who had a differing view on Christ and
the atonement.Also, the Nephites didn't work in a
re-distribution of wealth system, but rather a system where everyone worked for
their own needs. Or rather, they didn't believe that the upper class should
get rich at the lower class' expense and not actually earn their own keep.
Sharrona,I've seen you write this stuff several times before,
and I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that Joseph Smith
didn't know who YahWeh was (YHWH), and that he confused him with Jehovah?
The LDS people believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament. He was known
as YHWH, or Jehovah. He was the Creator of all things. Even Wikipedia shows that
YHWH = YahWeh, and the first line of text even says, "Yahweh, often rendered
Jehovah or the LORD (in small capitals), is the god of Israel in the Hebrew
Bible." Seems like more than just the LDS understand this. Also, you say
'JS was unaware of the poor KJV and didn't know the Peresonal name of
God (LORD) YHWH.' First, by his own history, he quotes James 1:5 verbatim
out of the KJV version of the Bible (see JSH:11). Second he, along with other
church leaders, studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets. So, I'm quite
certain he knew that YHWH was a name of Jehovah - the Lord, Jesus Christ. But
more importantly, he had met him - something neither you nor I can claim.
RE: We can learn from history,and Biblical languages. All who have
taken Moroni 10:3-5 to heart clearly know the power of this witness for Christ?
OK,read Moroni 10:34. Jehovah( YHWH )The Eternal Judge.From
LDS revelation, we learn that Jehovah is the English form of the actual name by
which the Lord Jesus was known ANCIETLY (D&C 110:3 ,Jehovah appears to JS,
‘Abraham 2:8 ‘,My is name is Jehovah) 788 Mormon Doctrine. s/b YHWH,
JS was unaware of the poor KJV and didn’t know the Personal name of
Dr. Peterson left out what the Anti-Christs taught the people with those
flattering words…That they were better [more blessed] by God,
That they deserved what God blessed them with, [That whole PRIDE of
materialism]And that they should despised the poor and needy, saying they
brought it upon themselves as a judgment from God himself and so they should not
be inclined to re-distribute the wealth they’d been given so freely.About the same things I hear on AM talk radio.BTW – It
was not the sexual immorality that caused their ultimate demise, But their
OFFENSIVE wars and allowing greeding Gadianton’s to direct their
Government into War-Profiteering by going into the Lamanites lands, seeking to
utterly destroy them, to rob, and plunder once and take all [rather than
defensively protecting their lands and families and religion on their own turf]
that God withdrew his blessing and allowed the “un-believing” yet
less-wicked Lamanites to wipe them out.Materialism, Greed, and Pride
was their down-fall.And in the end, God saved -- the
long-haired, pipe-smoking, Commune living, 1/2 naked, unbelieveing Lamanites. The Liberals.
Thinkman,Obviously either your first conclusion was true or your
second was.Other than the application of logic and reason (which
certainly many converts have had to do when entering the church) was there ANY
other difference between your first and second conclusion?I am
curious because I know a lot of very well-versed LDS with pretty substantial
"logic modules" who still have a testimony of the BOM.
I took Moroni 10:3-5 to heart each time (12-14 times) I read the Book of Mormon
cover to cover. I thought I KNEW it to be a true account of ancient Americans
as claimed by the title page and Joseph Smith. After using logic,
reason and doing some research on from LDS church historical sources, I later
realized that I KNEW without reservation, that the Book of Mormon was a
concoction promoted, if not written by Joseph Smith.
All who have taken Moroni 10:3-5 to heart clearly know the power of this witness
for Christ. Page after page testify of the Savior and especially in Mosiah
teach of the Atonement and in III Neph recount the visit to the American
continent of the Lord himself. This volume is indeed written for our day. All
the misdeeds of the Nephites are examples for us to learn from and certainly to