Pro-life advocates increase, but abortion remains complicated and divisive

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  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    June 13, 2012 1:40 p.m.

    @LDS Liberal

    "Grey areas, NOT clear cut Black & White."

    For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance
    D&C 1:31

    It seems there is only black and white and no gray
    Maybe we should stop and re-think this shades of gray concept.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    June 13, 2012 12:35 p.m.

    The LDS position on abortion is far from "black and white." Although disapproving so-called "elective" abortions, the Church has never officially called for a ban. The medical condition of mother and fetus, the psychological dynamics of forced pregnancy or incest--all these things must be taken into consideration, according to the prophets. Ultimately, it's a matter of individual conscience and medical judgment. There are no absolutes here.

  • Bebyebe UUU, UT
    June 10, 2012 10:05 a.m.

    If you don't like abortion, don't get one.

    If you can get pregnant than you are entitled to an opinion. Otherwise it's not your concern.

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    June 8, 2012 12:42 p.m.


    If your God rules with absolutes than abortion for ANY reason is morally wrong and there are no exceptions for rape, incest, or to preserve mother's life. If rape and incest can be accepted as a good enough reason for abortion...than any reason at all can be accepted....unless of course there are NO absolutes. Either All abortions are UNacceptable or all abortions are acceptable. Pregnancy due to rape or incest is never the fault of the child or the mother; the guilty party, not the innocent party, should be punished if there are absolutes and abortion should not occur. That brings me to abortion to preserve the life of the mother. Obviously, preserving the life of the mother is determined to be more important than the life of the potential child thus justifying "choice". Society needs to stop being two-faced over this issue. There are many things that are seen as immoral by some people, which must, nevertheless, be upheld as a right. The fetus has no absolute right to the woman's body and therefore the woman has a right to choose abortion for herself without interference from well-meaning though misguided pro-lifers.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    June 7, 2012 8:50 p.m.

    I'm not arguing for Kantian absolutism. No one here seems to get that, but then again no one here seems have read weightier matters per my previous suggestion either.

    1) There is a right answer to EVERY question.
    2) That answer can vary per person.
    3) BUT these don't contradict. The answer can still serve an absolute higher principle.

    God might give two people different answers, but only to satisfy a higher law. God's laws are indeed absolute, but the only way of seeing that is looking at the whole picture.

    Say that I design a system to get two people through a complex maze to a goal. I tell one person to go "route A" and another person "route B", that doesn't mean I've contradicted myself or that I don't have an absolute goal to satisfy. My actions serve one absolute higher law- to get them to the goal. Kant argued that we should all go the same exact route. This is distinguishable from arguing that there is moral absolution as I have.

    God's laws ARE in fact absolute, with no grey area. Our moral 'black/white' is obeying or disobeying.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    June 7, 2012 4:55 p.m.

    A voice of Reason
    Salt Lake City, UT
    LDS Liberal,

    Is it right to kill someone? Yes or no? There is no grey area between the yes or no... you have two options only. That's all I'm talking about.



    Which is so funny, because in this case, why I'm the one who is more black and white because I'm against war and the Death Penalty.

    Yet - YOU would be the one living in that GRAY area this time.
    Saying killing is wrong, but flip-flopping to the dark side by saying it's suddenly OK for State sponsored killing in the name of War and Punishment.

    God is absolute. He is perfect.

    We are not, so the Atonement accounts for the gray areas -- otherwise, we are all doomed to an everlasting hell, absolutely.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    June 7, 2012 4:16 p.m.

    LDS Liberal,

    Is it right to kill someone? Yes or no? There is no grey area between the yes or no... you have two options only. That's all I'm talking about. The right answer may depend on the circumstances, but there is in fact ONE answer that is right and ONE that is wrong.

    And your evolution point is not analogous to an argument about morality. Even if we were talking about knowledge, God in fact DOES know everything about evolution. So it's still a nonsensical point.

    In every moral question, God does have the ultimate truth and correct moral answer. If He didn't He would cease to be God as justice cannot be robbed. Even God is bound be eternal laws. This is clearly defined in the Book of Mormon.

    Saying there is a definite right or wrong choice isn't the same as saying that everyone should choose one course of action or another. Killing isn't always wrong. But with every moral question, God does in fact have an absolute right answer to give that cannot be refuted.

    God's morality is absolute and God is an unchanging God. Fact.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 7, 2012 9:41 a.m.

    A voice of Reason
    Salt Lake City, UT

    Everything IS black and white to God. We may not like absolutes in our debate, but the laws of God are absolute and justice cannot be robbed.


    Not true!

    Even the "Brethren" can not come to a 100% consense on matters.

    In such cases, mum's the word until they do.

    Evolution is one "Grey" area where there is no Black & White Absolute.
    Abortion is another [hence, the Rape, Incest, Health of Mother and/or Fetus]

    Grey areas, NOT clear cut Black & White.

    I know that shatters your little "Pleastville" view of the world, but it's true.

    BTW - White is an interesting Truth.
    It isn't really a color now is it....
    But it comprosises ALL colors, -- if you want to get metaphorical --- ALL Truth.

    Anything less or left out isn't White anymore.
    But that does't make sense in your universe of absolutes.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    June 7, 2012 2:07 a.m.


    Insulting others doesn't actually offer an argument, nor does it qualify the integrity of my own argument.

    First, Webster defines "reason" as "a statement offered in explanation or justification". While time and time again, people poke at my screen name as if being 'reasonable' requires that somehow I have to agree with them, that is not the case. I simply intend to explain my opinions and beliefs for the benefit of objectivity or effectively communicating. This is about as rational as it gets.

    The 'black and white' point and the 'we may not like absolutes, but God's laws are absolute and must be upheld' point are both not new to the philosophical world and for that reason, my referencing them was not irrational.

    Again, the idea that God is a perfectly moral being with moral absolution is not new. If you think I'm unreasonable for that, take the most basic of all philosophy classes and learn a thing or two before you start to criticize others, especially with inappropriate comparisons to the holocaust. Such a comment is hardly believable. All I need to say is "Immanuel Kant" and your claim against me is completely refuted.

  • Mukkake Salt Lake City, UT
    June 6, 2012 10:38 p.m.

    [Everything IS black and white to God. We may not like absolutes in our debate, but the laws of God are absolute and justice cannot be robbed.]

    This coming from a guy that calls himself "A voice of Reason". Sort of like when concentration camps are called "reeducation camps".

    The same reason you would never trust anything said by a guy who calls himself "Mr. Honesty".

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    June 6, 2012 9:19 p.m.

    Somehow "pro-choice" excludes the choice to get pregnant.



    LDS Liberal,

    If you want religion on this issue I'd suggest reading "Weightier Matters", it's a brilliant talk from Dallin H Oaks. And as far as your Temple argument goes, there are people alive today who cannot be baptized because of certain doctrinal principles. You nor I can qualify such doctrine without truly being authorized to qualify it. While it is true that temple work isn't done for miscarriages, the LDS Church also condemns abortion. Yes, certain circumstances are different- but the point is still valid.

    Everything IS black and white to God. We may not like absolutes in our debate, but the laws of God are absolute and justice cannot be robbed.

    Other than gay marriage and abortion, how many other things do you disagree with the church on? I mean no offense to you, I just don't understand how someone can believe in prophets, but so frequently reject what they say. I'd compare it to Revelation 3:15-16. We either believe in what the priesthood leaders of the church are teaching us, or we don't. There is no grey.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    June 6, 2012 6:26 p.m.

    If you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 6, 2012 4:27 p.m.

    Hayden, ID

    I fear you missed my point!

    If you keep defining a single cell containing all DNA as the premise for defining Human-Life, -- then just as La Lagomorph implies – it is YOU who are killing millions and billions of “humans” on a daily basis due to the normal shedding of cells in the normal life process because a normal Human BEING contains over 50 Trillion cells!

    Besides -
    If you want to get “Biblical”, life begins with the breath of life.

    And if you want to get LDS Temple on me - the LDS church does not allow Temple work for miscarriages, still births, or the like.

    Life begins in a gray area,
    Life ends in a gray area.

    Everything is not just Black & White.

  • Coach Biff Lehi, UT
    June 6, 2012 3:12 p.m.

    There is no question that Planned Parenthood has done Margeret Sangers dirty work. What I refuse to believe is that abortion is not having a negative effect on the overall health of the American woman. I believe,(and this is only my opinion) that in the coming years we will look back and see that we not only decimated a generation of minorities, but we also allowed horrible unitended consequences fall upon the very segment of society that we said we were trying to protect. All in the name of choice and convenience..

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    June 6, 2012 3:09 p.m.

    @ LDS liberal. I fear you missed my point! Unless a cell has a full complement of chromosomes,( half from an egg and half from sperm), it neither divides, grows nor survives! Cloned cells have a full complement of chromosomes as well. Biological fact! This destroys the argument from the previous commenter that sperm and eggs of humans are complete humans. I re-read my biology textbook and it confirms this information.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 6, 2012 2:32 p.m.

    Hayden, ID
    •2:00 p.m. June 6, 2012

    Mountanman – I know were where you are trying to take this and I wish to point out you are wrong.

    You might want to read an updated 4th grade biology book.

    Ultra-conservative notions of the moment of conception or “a single cell is a Human being” argument cannot possibly hold true.

    Consider the cases of identical twins or clones.

    Human life may begin, but it most certainly cannot possibly be strictly defined, by sighting DNA and a single cell.

    FYI - We are dead long before that last human cell containing all that DNA dies for that matter as well.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    June 6, 2012 2:00 p.m.

    @ Lagomorph. You might need to take a biology course. Most of us learned in the 4th grade that meiosis produces sperm cells or eggs that are not viable until they meet and combine their DNA and produce a new living organism with a full complement of chromosomes. Otherwise, 100% of gametes do not survive but once they combine, cell growth and mitosis flourishes.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 6, 2012 1:57 p.m.

    It’s not always an All-or-Nothing question.

    It’s possible to be Pro-Life AND Pro-Choice.

    I’m Pro-Life, in that a fetus has the right to the best chance at Life that Society has to offer – regardless of income.
    I also show integrity in my Pro-Life stance because I’m Anti-War and Anti-Death Penalty.

    I’m also Pro-Choice – and support 100% the LDS Church’s official Statement that in some rare cases, that abortion may be considered an valid option in the case of rape, incest, Health of the Woman or Viability of the fetus --- but the ultimate CHOICE is to remain with the Woman. Along with the help of her Doctor, Family, Clergy and prayer….not the Government, and certainly not a Political Party.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    June 6, 2012 1:46 p.m.

    The proponents of personhood amendments are timid pikers who lack the courage and moral conviction to follow through on the full impact of their beliefs. Life does not begin at conception, life begins at gametogenesis. Every gamete emerging from meiosis is alive and human, yet they are wasted by the billions every day in a silent genocide that elicits nary a peep of concern. Where are the constitutional amendments proposing personhood for the lowliest humans among us, our haploid brethren? That these poor preborn, preconceived children are completely overlooked when it comes to personhood evidences a callous and selective disregard for potential human life. Could there be prejudice against those lacking the full genetic complement? Who among us will speak for these voiceless souls and fight to secure their inalienable civil rights?

    If legislators can propose the forced physical intrusion of women through wand ultrasound (VA) and specify the dimensions of medical facilities (KS) all in the name protecting preborn children, surely someone can step forward in the service of defenseless gameto-Americans whose innocent lives are equally in peril. These people are the seeds to our future, the keys to human survival. Power to the 23!

  • Uncle Gadianton Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 6, 2012 12:29 p.m.

    @Counter Intelligence:

    [eugenics became very unfashionable in the mid-29th century]

    After the Eugenics Wars, led by Khal Noonian Singh, no doubt.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    June 6, 2012 12:16 p.m.

    The Nazis considered Jews “burdens” as well! Abortion is only another extermination procedure for the “unwanted”.

  • Mukkake Salt Lake City, UT
    June 6, 2012 11:53 a.m.

    [Planned Parenthood still proportionally aborts more minority children than white children]

    And minorities are still more likely to be in prison or on public assistance too. That's because minorities tend to have less access to economic/educational opportunities in this country. This leads to a higher rate of abortions, crime, and public assistance.

    Could you imagine if these minority women didn't have access to Planned Parenthood? They would have even greater burdens.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 6, 2012 10:07 a.m.

    Odds are it's probably around half and half like it's always been. I've even been calling myself pro-life more often lately because I support birth control, comprehensive sex education, protecting the lives of mothers by giving them safe places for legal abortions, and my support for universal healthcare, plus I'm personally pro-life in that I'd rather people not get them though I'm not a woman so I'd never be making a choice for myself, I just wouldn't ban people from getting them. I think there are a lot of women that are personally pro-life (would never get one themselves) but are pro-choice in support in that they woudn't stop others from getting one.

  • Mukkake Salt Lake City, UT
    June 6, 2012 9:29 a.m.

    [True to PP founder Margaret Sanger’s original eugenics dream]

    This nonsense has been disproved over and over and over. But like anything conservatives do, they just continue to repeat the same old nonsense that they heard once from some disreputable source.

    Try actually educating yourself, it really isn't all that painful.