Former Cougars find flaws in Deadspin story about BYU athletics

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  • BSU Lehi, UT
    April 19, 2011 1:13 a.m.

    Just read the last comment, first page. I want to say that I know several people recruited by BYU and none of them were taken to any sex or drinking parties. That is the most absurd claim made so far. Does anyone take Deadspin seriously??

  • BSU Lehi, UT
    April 19, 2011 1:10 a.m.

    I worked with a property manager for BYU students. We often had to kick kids out for honor code violations. None of them were black. The black students I knew there kept the honor code. Athletes might be there for different reasons. But we really can't expect anyone to say "oh, you got someone pregnant? Well we'll have to kick you out, unless you're a minority."

    I'm a minority, I went to BYU. I loved it. I never saw anyone treated any differently. In fact, it seems that blacks and whites date each other more at BYU than any of the other three schools I went to.

    I am still shocked at those critical of anything BYU has done on this one.

    What is our wolrd coming to????

    Deadspin is simply showing their own bigotry by painting an entire people as racist because a minority student made a mistake and chose to stick with the honor code and accepted responsibility. How foolish does that make deadspin?

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 18, 2011 7:21 p.m.


    You prove my point.

    Without data.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    April 18, 2011 6:49 p.m.

    Your silence as a so-called "statistical" expert is deafening.

    By your own admission, the study is based on incomplete data, which only an amature would try to use to form a statistically valid opinion of BYU's honor code enforcement practices.

    The fact that you're willing to allow your school and alma mater to be slandered without criticizing the obvious flaws in the study, shows that you're only concerned with unsupported speculation and biased posturing when it calls into question the validity of a study that supports your own personal bias against BYU.

    You're defending the abuse of statistics by your "convenient" silence.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 18, 2011 6:03 p.m.

    Wow! The witch-hunt mentality around here is stifling.

    What part of "I don't have access to the data" don't you people understand?

    Instead you would like to heap accusation upon speculation and try to demonize me?

    Good luck with that. I will not be joining you in your witch-hunt, nor will I defend the abuse of statistics.

    I have said nothing about the Deadspin study one way or the other. My silence on the subject cannot be interpreted one way or another. For you to do so is exactly the unsupported speculation and biased posturing I was criticizing. Keep doing it and you only prove my point.

  • truthlover Milwaukee, WI
    April 18, 2011 4:39 p.m.

    I know BYU also has an academic honesty policy which is part of but in substance different from a lot of the honor code. Maybe a restructuring of the honor code to separate the academic honesty part from the non-academic honor code/non-academic morality policy would help people avoid confusion. Other schools have academic honesty policies that some call their honor codes. Also, I don't think it's standard for other schools to have people sign the academic honesty policy. BYU's non-academic policy seems quite a bit different, but the academic part is of course the same, so a restructuring may help.

    Let me be clear that I think BYU has a right to have what they call the honor code, and every school should have an academic honesty policy. But a little clarification might help BYU and might also help non-LDS prospective students to understand the differences between BYU and other universities.

  • CordonBleu Park City, UT
    April 18, 2011 3:56 p.m.

    I M LDS 2

    So why didn't you effectively trump Deadspin's claimed statistical authority and show why Deadspin's conclusions based on incomplete data could be seriously flawed?

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    April 18, 2011 3:45 p.m.

    "Why don't I "critique the study for [you]"?

    Can you give me a reason why I should?"

    To prove that you're actually the statistician you claim to be...

    and to prove that you're actually trying to be objective, and not just pushing your own agenda.

  • Solomon the Wise Alpine, UT
    April 18, 2011 3:23 p.m.

    LDS 2

    Nice dodge.

    Isn't it curious how quick you were to criticize another blogger for his "poor" interpretation of statistics, but you are completely unwilling to criticize the author of the study.

    "Given the constraints on accessibility to the Honor Code Office data, I am smart enough to realize few people are in a position to do a proper statistical analysis on this issue... Only an amateur would try to opine without access to the data."

    Isn't that exactly what the author of this study did, opine on racial biases in enforcing the BYU Honor Code without access to complete data?

    So why are you so unwilling to at least critique the study based on how the author's use of incomplete data could skew results and lead to erroneous conclusions?

    Unless, of course, by so doing, you would be undermining your own personal biases.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 18, 2011 1:35 p.m.

    Just the FAX,

    My original comment took Koke to task for claiming to be a "statistician" and, in virtue of that claimed "authority", doing a poor job of critiquing the Deadspin study on statistical grounds. I believe I effectively trumped Koke's claimed authority and showed that Koke's arguments were fallacious.

    For instance, Koke argued the study had "sample" problems, but then claimed the study was about "the population". In research, we describe populations using "parameters", not "statistics". Statistics are, by definition, about samples, from which we infer characteristics of populations.

    Why don't I "critique the study for [you]"?

    Can you give me a reason why I should?

    Shall I blindly and poorly defend BYU simply because I am LDS and BYU is LDS and my alma mater? That seems to be what most commenters are doing here. Talk about bias.

    Given the constraints on accessibility to the Honor Code Office data, I am smart enough to realize few people are in a position to do a proper statistical analysis on this issue. Koke, you, and I all lack access to the data. Only an amateur would try to opine without access to the data.

  • Solomon Levi Alpine, UT
    April 18, 2011 12:36 p.m.

    Just the FAX

    Actually, BYU only has about 256 athletic scholarships to award each year, but considering walkons, club sports (like rugby), and sports like men's volleyball that only has 4 1/2 scholarships to share between 15 or more players, there are well over 300 student athletes at BYU. I wonder if all of them were included in the study.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    April 18, 2011 11:47 a.m.

    LDS 2

    What insights have you offered into this case based on your "superior knowledge" of statistics and science?

    To date, the ONLY thing you've done is nitpik other bloggers' comments. Maturity would seem to suggest using this as a teaching moment, instead attacking every blogger who disagrees with you.

    If you're really such an expert in statistics, why don't you critique the study for us, pointing out BOTH the strengths and weaknesses of the study, and why other factors, besides race, weren't considered.

    Since BYU doesn't release information to the public regarding how many student athletes have been displined because of Honor Code violations, how do we know that the data is even complete for the years studied?

    Over 500 BYU athletic scholarships are awarded annually, with an average of only 3 to 4 student athletes being suspended per year (70 total since 1993). That seems awfully low considering how difficult everyone says it is to live the standards of the BYU Honor Code.

    Enlighten us.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 18, 2011 11:09 a.m.

    Cougars1, LOTR, and others,

    By all means, if you have valid arguments against my points, please share them. Your attacks on me are meaningless and only demonstrate your immaturity.

    If your knowledge of statistics and science is superior to my own, and offer insights into this case, I implore you to share them with us. I really do make my living with statistics. It is a very good living. I have demonstrated my knowledge of statistics.

    Please reciprocate. Demonstrate your superior knowledge of statistics, and apply it to this case.


    We will wait for you...

  • LOTR Baltimore, MD
    April 17, 2011 10:02 p.m.

    "I don't much worry whether or not you would hire me. I make over six figures doing statistics... Trying to attack me does not make your arguments any less hypocritical or vacuous... Why the bullying tone? There is plenty of data in your post alone to conclude some people still think they are in elementary school... And for this you get all huffy?"

    The vacuous, circular logic of the wannabe statistician.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 17, 2011 8:23 p.m.

    I M, Nice. That one even made me laugh. As far as giving the church a bad name, nice try. And way to throw that "income" of yours around, but nobody is impressed; especially those of us who are independently wealthy:-)

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 17, 2011 7:22 p.m.


    There is plenty of data in your post alone to conclude some people still think they are in elementary school.

    Cest la vie. You all will continue to give the Church a bad name, and I will continue to make a good living with statistics.

    Good luck to you all.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 17, 2011 1:06 p.m.

    I M LDS 2, what data do you have that Uteanymous is using a bullying tone or that he is all huffy. He could be laughing as he is typing. So you need to follow what you say is the FIRST rule of statistics and make sure you know what data you do or do not have.

    Just like inferring through the D&C that some of us are hypocrites. I would suggest that you do not have all of the data necessary to come to that kind of conclusion.

    As for the Deadspin article, we know that his statistics are made up since BYU does not release that information, so we really have no way of knowing if he is correct.

    I do like reading your posts. Makes me feel smart.

  • deductive reasoning Arlington, VA
    April 17, 2011 12:48 p.m.

    @LDS 2

    "If the study is flawed, point out the flaws,..."


    As a "statistician" you know the study is flawed based on obvious factors that the researcher chose not to consider; so either you're unwilling to point out the flaws for some personal reason, or you're not the "statistician" you purport to be.

    Quit hiding beyond the "I don't have the data" excuse, but then attacking everybody who suggests an alternative conclusion.

    For example, how many students in the study were expelled for crimes such as theft, assault, DUI, rape, and illegal drug use? Things that could have gotten them expelled from most schools and had nothing to do with race and are not unique to the BYU Honor Code.

    Nothing in the study suggests that crimes were considered in evaluating alternate reasons for expulsion that had nothing to do with racial bias.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 17, 2011 11:56 a.m.


    "Big words, hollow arguments LDS 2."??

    Why the bullying tone? If the study is flawed, point out the flaws, but make sure you have your statistical ducks in a row. If you have studies and data that support contrary conclusions, tell us about them. But don't just pop off without any basis (data).

    You know nothing of my "biases" whatsoever. Yet you continue to presume you do. That is exactly the hypocrisy I am calling out.

    I do not have the data. Neither do you. Contrary to what Koke asserts, the FIRST rule of statistics is to make sure you know what data you do or do not have. Don't speculate beyond the data, especially when you don't have any!

    And for this you get all huffy?

    Doesn't make you look very good.

  • MiP Iowa City, IA
    April 17, 2011 9:20 a.m.

    1) Dr. Smith has an axe to grind.
    2) Mr. Harmon is an apologist.
    3) Amare Stoudemire says don't go there.

    Duckhunter | 7:29 p.m. April 15, 2011

    "Can you show me where I referenced utah fans or ute supporters as a whole? No I specifically said the "ute trolls that are always on these blogs" which is a very specific set of individuals such as hedgehog..."

    Haha, you make me laugh dude. Are you denying your hatred for Ute fans in general?

    Having read your posts for a while now I can attest that you have many times, in past posts, clumped Ute fans together. True, you have on occasion hedged your remarks to seem like your are refering to individuals. But it would not be hard for me to get examples when you place Utah fans in a blantantly negative light. Two classic Duckhunter Modi Operandi are the use of "quotation marks" to decribe Ute fans (again, not singling out specific individuals) and the copious use of "LOL" at the end of your Ute smack talk.

    No reason to pretend you're not a hater. You're their Hedgehog. And it's great.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    April 17, 2011 8:55 a.m.

    Big words, hollow arguments LDS 2.

    Why don't you address he real subject at hand, the questionable Deadspin study? A real statistician without a personal bias to protect should have a heyday attacking such a flawed study.

  • 1Infidel APO, AE
    April 17, 2011 2:44 a.m.

    I think the issue about transferring credits has been misunderstood. For a player one semester short of graduation to transfer to another school at that point and hope to graduate from another school I believe is likely impossible. What school is going to present a diploma from their school with the student having only taken 3-5 classes there? I believe that you have to have a minumum number of credits from a school to apply for graduation.

    Of course, the aggrieved should have thought about, or been man enough to acknowledge the consequences for what he for certain knew he was doing that was wrong. I understand his frustration, but for fault he only needs consult a mirror.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 17, 2011 12:46 a.m.

    Solomon & skywalker,

    I have simply used my statistical knowledge to point out the hypocrisy of Koke's and the vacuousness of your arguments.

    I have not stated anything about my own personal beliefs one way or another.

    Trying to attack me does not make your arguments any less hypocritical or vacuous.

    Perhaps you should take a chill pill.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    April 16, 2011 11:26 p.m.

    If you were really the statistician you claim to be, LDS2, you'd be demonstrating your statistical expertise by addressing the obvious flaws in the Deadspin study, instead of getting into a spitting match with everyone who disagrees with you.

    Unless, of course, by pointing out the flaws you would be undermining a study that supports your own personal biases.

  • Solomon the Wise Alpine, UT
    April 16, 2011 11:08 p.m.

    I M LDS 2

    When you're finished laughing, read and apply: D&C 50:40

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 16, 2011 9:38 p.m.

    Rockwell & Cougars1,

    Grow up?

    That is your "grown up" rejoinder?


    D&C 50:7

  • Y Ask Y Provo, UT
    April 16, 2011 9:31 p.m.

    I thought John Pack Lambert of Michigan claimed to be an honest, law-abiding person.

    But here we have 10 (count 'em) comments on a forum where only 4 are allowed?

    Tsk, Tsk, John. You should be ashamed.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 9:15 p.m.

    There was a study done that showed that abstinance pledges to marriage, done without any reinforcing or change of other situations, have no statistically discernable effect on the likelyhood of a change in the frequency of pre-marital sex.

    That would mean that the answer to your question is that we have ample evidence to support the conclusion that the honor code signing alone would not matter very much but the previous life experiences of the players, as well as their network of friends and associates, would matter.

    That said, the more I think about this the more sketical I am about the base figures. How does Mr. Smith know that there have been 70 student athletes suspended since 1993? How does he determine whether they are "minority" or not and whether they are "black" or not. There have been enough Brazilians at BYU to make racial determination very difficult.

    Even if these figures are true, what do we compare them to? The only comparable figures would be the student-athlete overall population, but even if you had the racial break-down of the student athletes over these last 18 years it could be misleading.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 9:06 p.m.

    Actually having married players and the rate of law-of-chastity violations is not correlated, and if it is it is hard to say how. There are in theory sports figures who cheat on their wives. This would create another person with a very high interest in knowing of such events than the two people involved, although there is a complexed set of issues on whether a cheated-on spouse of a student-athlete would expose their spouse.

    It may be true that married athletes are less likely to break the law of chastity, but this is a supposition that largely assumes breaking the law of chastity involves relationships with "girlfriends" instead of one-night-stands or whatnot, a supposition that seems to ignore the reasons why there are so many single mothers.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 8:52 p.m.

    My good friend even managed to have some credits from the BYU religion department transfer, and this was transfering to a public university in Michigan. At some level I would not be surprised if public universities in Michigan are more willing to accept BYU religion department credits than public universities in Utah. In Utah the Utah ACLU would sue if it caught wind of such a thing, in Michigan sueing over such a thing would expose the ACLU as the hateful and vindictive anti-religious organization it is.

    Put another way, there are far more hard-core anti-Mormons in Utah than in Michigan, and they are much more likely to be friends of the ACLU. Here in Michigan the most vocal enemies of Mormonism are also the ones who the ACLU attacks. This is because they are Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians and not hard-core synical secularists.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 8:47 p.m.

    The claim you can not transfer your credits when you have been removed from BYU on an honor code infraction is false. I had a very good friend who did exactly that, and he was able to transfer 89 credits to the new institution, which was the most they would allow to be transfered.

    The claim that it would be hard to transfer credits is just plain hogwash. Of couse if you have failed all your courses then there are no credits to transfer, but that is a different issue.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 8:35 p.m.

    PAC 12,
    You are the one who has no sense of reality. For your accusation to even make sense you would have to be able to cite removal of a non-white player for similar alleged actions in a similar time frame. you can not claim racism by saying that non-white players in 2003 are treated differently than a white player in 1980. The rules that BYU sports really operated under changed over time. In many ways the treatment of athletes since Mr. McMahon have been conditioned by later statments by McMahon.

    It is an attempt to eradicate hypocracy and to make sure that all BYU students are held to the honor code and to end the emptiness feeling inducing distruess in the McMahon case that has lead to actual enforcement of rules against players later.

    Your attempt to claim racism here is a bunch of rubbish and stupidity. What you are actually demonstrating is that there was a realization at some point that the system had not been working and a decision to enforce the system in a new way.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 8:22 p.m.

    The claim that most African-American students who "come to BYU" are non-Mormon is false. The majority of black students at BYU are Mormons. The majority of black student-athletes when they start at BYU may be non-Mormons, but that is a very different group. Even there you have people like Curtis Brown who join the Church at BYU so such things are doable.

    On the other hand the level at which inner-city blacks cokme from an atmosphere totally different than BYU is too often glossed over. However to claim that anything BYU does in this matter constitutes "harrassing" is just plain stupid.

    ideally maybe BYU should be more hesitant to take non-Mormon athletes. Coache Cleveland had probably the most trying experiences on this line. However, people forget the legacy of black arm bands and fires on the floor. There is a strong pressure to have black athletes. If there is an unfair system it is that BYU may at times take black athletes who have red-flags of background issues when they would not take similar white athletes. However this is because of the double standard that is supported by the people attacking BYU.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 8:15 p.m.

    The Crowton era is generally held up as a time of failure. Mendenhall on the other hand has emphasized the importance and nature of the honor code all along, and in general had better teams.

    How is it that Crowton gets better teams even though he in theory exludes many players on non-athletic criteria? I think it is because much of the hype of getting talented players to sign on focuses college sports in the wrong direction.

    The reall issue is having good coaches who can develop players and disciplined players who are willing to work to perform. The later is often a seperate issue from the players having been disciplined enough to perform.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 8:10 p.m.

    So over 18 years there have been 70 suspensions of student athletes from BYU. Before we give credence to this figure we need to know what would happen if someone were suspended more than once. Would that be counted as one or two suspensions.

    Why only back to 1993? What makes that the cut-off year.

    How many student athletes have their been during this time? Are there teams that have never had an athlete suspended? If there are we probably should exclude their members from theoretical counts. Another question, do former members of the wrestling and gymnastics teams who are suspended after the teams get dispanded count as suspended student athletes or not?

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 8:06 p.m.

    However such bad attitudes and not even connecting the logical dots can be found all over the place. As a self-proclaimed part Cherokee someone might try to manipulate my situation to advance their claim of racism, but I have been described as "the whitest person I know" by some people, and have never had anyone on seeing me classify me other than white.

    The race statistics in this article are meaningless and misleading. To begin with how did people determine the race of those disciplined? This is an important question because about 10% of BYU's student body refuses to mark their race on application forms and BYU can not require such.

    Beyond this, the race stats only are comparable to the total racial make up of student athletes, which we do not know. Even if we knew that we would have to know religious standing, family religious standing, real pre-enrollment honor code living (which no one at BYU knows if some have lied to get in), and a lot more factors.

    Correlations does not prove causation. This is especially true when you are dealing with samples below 100 people.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    April 16, 2011 7:59 p.m.

    The claim that the Honor Code Office needs to be more transparent put forward by the blogger at the Herald, makes no sense in light of the central point of the attack.;

    The fact of the matter is that multiple people have attacked the whole Davies situation on the grounds that the Honor Code office "made a public example" out of him. That would mean that the Honor Code office is too public with its actions and needs to find more private courses of action, which is the opposite of transparency. Personally I think the current set-up of letting cases being dealt with on an issue specific inquiry is good.

    I would have to say that some employees of the honor code office are far to centrered on form. I went home early from my mission due to medical issues. It wa an honorable release. I still had to reapply fully to BYU on the grounds that a mission defgerment is two years and if you go home early the deferment no longer stands. This was the most narrow minded and enraging thing I ever dealt with.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 16, 2011 7:31 p.m.

    Well said Rockwell. I doubt his income is what he says it is. I could say that I make 7 figures a year and no one on here would be the wiser. Besides, 100,000 is a lot less impressive than 999,999. I make $100,000.00 in my sleep.(And no one is the wiser.)

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    April 16, 2011 6:40 p.m.

    Grow up "I M LDS 2". You certainly don't show the maturity of someone who supposedly makes six figures. Instead of arguing semantics about another blogger's assertions, why aren't you pointing out the flaws the obvious flaws in the study, which anyone with even a cursory knowledge of statistics can see?

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 16, 2011 3:34 p.m.


    What is more disturbing is that you are willing to speculate and conjecture about MY beliefs as regards race and the honor code at BYU. You do this by trying to put words in my mouth:

    "...a person who didn't value sexual abstinence before college is equally likely to abstain from sex during college as a person who grew up believing in abstinence (even if they signed a promise not too)?"

    "And would you finally conclude that if a person in the former group did not keep their commitment at the same rate as the person who always espoused those values that it had something to do with their race?"

    Interestingly, in the way you phrased these loaded, putting-words-in-my-mouth questions, you are identifying single-subject cases, which are handled in an entirely different manner than "statistically".

    None of my comments mentioned anything about race, the honor code (which I have complied with faithfully my entire life, including my years at BYU), or bigotry. I was simply pointing out the flaws in your unsupported assertions and appeals to your own authority as a "statistician". On those grounds, you were way off base.

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    April 16, 2011 3:24 p.m.

    Deadspin's whole premise makes no sense. Why would BYU spend thousands of hours recruiting black student athletes and then not do everything they could to help them succeed? To even suggest that a school would set any of its students up for failure is ludicrous. If BYU didn't want students of a particular race at the school, they wouldn't spend so much time recruiting them. Deadspin's "research" is nothing but a hatchet job from a disgruntled former employee.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 16, 2011 3:14 p.m.


    Now you are really not making sense. First you say "these statistics have been interpreted by amateurs to draw emotionally satisfying conclusions that no true statistician would ever endorse."

    Then YOU not only claim to be a "true" statistician, but you draw your OWN "emotionally satisfying conclusions", which is what I challenged you on. You did exactly what you accused the "amateurs" of doing.

    There is no basis in the data for your speculative conjecture of "statistically insignificant differences between the populations". "Bias" is not the issue.

    You say The question is: Are minority athletes held to a higher standard with respect to the honor code than white students?

    Then you turn around and say In the case of this debate, we have complete population data, so sample taking and inference doesn't make sense.

    We (you?) have the honor code data for the entire population of minority and white athletes who have ever attended BYU? That is doubtful, which means you require sampling and inference to make assertions such as yours. Right?

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    April 16, 2011 3:10 p.m.


    Sorry, I'm not buying your story. I've been to hundreds of BYU sporting events over several decades and I've never heard anything but mild heckling in unison from BYU students. I know Vance Law, BYU's head baseball coach, personally, and know he would never tolerate the kind of behavior commonly seen by student sections at other universities. There might be an occassional out-of-line insult from a handful of students, but to brand the entire BYU athletic program based on the disrespectful actions of a few shows you're either way too hypersensitive or you're just a BYU hater trying to stir the pot.

  • Owl Salt Lake City, UT
    April 16, 2011 2:29 p.m.

    Is Deadspin implying that athletes of color are not able to keep an honor code? How racist of them.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    April 16, 2011 2:24 p.m.


    You are obviously a utah fan. Nice try.

  • Ldsfan South Jordan, UT
    April 16, 2011 1:25 p.m.

    Cordon Bleu.

    I was a Fan growing up. I never saw the mean nature of rivalries back in the 70's and 80's. It was more fun for everyone involved. I attended a baseball game in Provo last year against Utah and was embarrassed by watching the fans treat each other with such disrespect. The students from BYU were shouting very ignorant insults in unison toward the parents of the Utah players. The parents handled it well. I no longer wear anything BYU or Utah. BYU is supposed to show the example of good behavior across the world. I see the hypocrisy from too many and see that BYU is simply the norm, not the exception. I am speaking merely in terms of fans, not the institution as a whole.

    Though I would miss it, I still don't believe BYU should compete in sports. Gives members reasons to act poorly. I am no longer a fan of BYU sports. We need more positive press. Sports isn't doing it.

  • IJ Hyrum, Ut
    April 16, 2011 11:43 a.m.

    Hedge - how do you know who does and doesn't live the HC?

    Menace - most likely there are those who are crafty enough to "get away with it." They will regret it in the future.

    Part of society will be honest no matter what; part of society will be dishonest no matter what; and part of society needs a little reminder (HC) now and then to help keep them on the strait and narrow. You will always be able to find people in any organization who are less than the ideal member. In an interview with Rolling Stone mag, Jim McMahon talked about sending his wife to the store for beer. He was never tossed. Those who adhere to the precepts are the ones you should judge the organiztion by. The Church and BYU are no different. Persons of high integrity will see the HC for what it is. Bottom feeders will bash as often as opportunity presents itself.

  • Mr. Schneebly Syracuse, UT
    April 16, 2011 11:04 a.m.

    I am a BYU graduate, and I personally know people who were in violation of the honor code, including a white athlete with an addiction to pain killers who was dismissed from the football team and the university.

    I believe it is a lie on the part of the dismissed athletes that they were never told anything about the honor code. The honor code is a part of BYU's culture and reputation and has been so for decades.

    I am sure BYU could produce an individually signed document by EACH athlete of every race agreeing to abide by the honor code, and it spells out BYU's expectations. If the athletes were dumb enough to sign without reading it, then how is that BYU's fault for misrepresenting the Honor Code?

    Young men and women are often tempted to do things they know are wrong, and some try to shift blame when they are caught. The athletes in the story are angry about being caught violating the code and suffering the consequences of their deeds. Has BYU always applied the code perfectly? Probably not, but at least they are trying to improve and be fair with all.

  • CordonBleu Park City, UT
    April 16, 2011 11:04 a.m.


    "Drop sports at BYU."

    Obviously not a fan at all, or you wouldn't be hoping BYU would drop sports. And, you're at odds with LDS leadership who see BYU sports as a great missionary tool for the church. BYU only dropped sports at BYU-Idaho because Ricks College was moving to a four-year university and the church didn't want the two schools competing for the same athletes. BYU sports aren't perfect, but they produce far more positive exposure for the church than negative. Even the Brandon Davies Honor Code coverage was more positive than negative.


    "I think the church should just drop BYU sport..."

    Of course you do. You're tired of living in BYU's shadow.

  • oldcougar Orem, UT
    April 16, 2011 10:29 a.m.

    Based on my experience, from long ago, there is some truth to the argument. Honor codes snitches existed when I was there. I was turned in for a "hair" violation 3 days after returning from a mission. When I reported to the Dean's office for my standards interview, the same day/hour, the dean asked me why I was there and laughed when I explained. He immediately signed off on my hair (dismissing the charges, so to speak), and wanted the name of the "monitor" so the Dean could do some "training." I had a math 105 class and was the only non-scholarship athlete in the large class. And, I was the only one who did not willingly participate in the instructor-sanctioned and wanton cheating. When I used the weight room in the field house, I had to carefully avoid and give way on any equipment to the aggressive, steroid-ridden jocks...and endure their foul stories of their last night's sexual conquests. I am an active member of the church, have served in several leadership positions, an avid coug fan. We need leadership on this issue, not defensiveness.

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    April 16, 2011 10:20 a.m.


    Thank you for your heart-felt post.

  • BASavage Vernal, UT
    April 16, 2011 10:00 a.m.

    I didnt' mention this in my last post. This article is written with a bias. And as most authors know you have to get your main point across in the first 3 paragraphs. As for recruits being "brought to orgies" is inacurrate. In fact is that the player who mentioned that later in the article said "the coaches didn't know about it". So to say that they were recruited with those parties is untrue. Again this is a biased article. Typical of a tabloid style web sight.

    Now to say that orgies don't happen with students at BYU is not accurate either. My Father graduated from there in the early 60's. He knew of sex and drinking going on at BYU then. The Honor Code has been around a very long time.

    Another thing that this article didn't bring up is all the trouble going on at other Universities and that most of those atheletes are black too. Its not about race, its about culture. Are these young men being taught that with great talent comes great responsiblity AND a microscope.

  • BleedCougarBlue Enid, OK
    April 16, 2011 9:56 a.m.

    Get a clue.

    BYU is in Utah (ya think?) which has been, and still is, historically non-black. So, chances are if you're a black guy in Utah you're probably not LDS which means you probably don't have the same standards as the LDS church, which sets the standards at BYU.

    So a large majority of athletes booted from BYU for honor code violations are non-white. That isn't racism or double-standards. That's "you probably weren't raised with the exact same standards as the LDS church and what you think is OK morally is not OK to BYU". You might say that a black kid kicked out of BYU was a Christian and a Baptist, for example, and has 'morals'. Sure, but does that Baptist also believe that sexual relationships before marriage is wrong? Go ask them. I've talked to them. Many say "no".

    It's like those who complain that the judicial system in the U.S. is 'only' racist instead of looking at the facts that the majority of those who commit violent crimes in America are non-whites. That isn't racism, that's just a fact.

  • mrmugooo Snohomish, WA
    April 16, 2011 9:38 a.m.

    um... who's Deadspin? ... and why do I (or anyone else for that matter let alone a university) care what they think?

  • snowman Provo, UT
    April 16, 2011 9:35 a.m.

    Everyone at BYU is subject to the same honor code.

  • Utes21 Salt Lake City, ut
    April 16, 2011 9:21 a.m.

    I agree with Ldsfan, I think the church should just drop BYU sport like they Did at Ricks or BYU Idaho. Its said to be a missionary tool but honestly how? I understand some former players who were recruited to BYU joined the church like Curtis Brown. At the same time out of all non members who played BYU football how many joined the Church? Not many, my highschool football coach played for BYU back in the glory years, he still holds records there. He never had nice things to say about the church and told us LDS students there were hypocrites always breaking the honor code and thats what turned him off about the church. Granted most students are faithful members but you have some sunday mormons there. Its not a great missionary tool
    When I was on my mission we were able to go watch byu play bc. BC won right at the end but within the stands bc students were trying to start a fight with mormon missionaries. This caused more harm then good. If you cut sports BYU would have so much more money to spend on academics.

  • BASavage Vernal, UT
    April 16, 2011 8:53 a.m.

    A very very biased article. This professor was probably dismissed from the school for submitting biased research. I find it interesting that he can't see pass his race. The article failed to note that one of the main reasons for Coach Crowton dismissal wasn't his poor performance, it was his recruiting style. The article also doesn't mention the fact that Brandon Davies went to the coaches and staff voluntarily. It also failed to mention that in Davies case its only ASSUMED that Davies was involved in premarital sex and that many of the players quoted in the article were up on crimminal charges. Its been my experience that unless there is a crimminal accusation that sort of stuff stays private.

    Now there are some harsh people in the honor code department at BYU. I've heard of some people being dismissed from their positions for not being understanding. I also know that there is an entire department in the Atheletic Department that work with atheletes who have minor honor code issues, such as drinking and other word of wisdom issues. Of course the author failed to mention that too.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    April 16, 2011 8:34 a.m.

    The article was pretty negative, and obviously centered on some disgruntled athletes. But what about the merits? It is easy to just point your finger back and say they were disgruntled. How much is actually true, from a factual perspective rather than just attitude? Over the years, I have been aware of activities of the honor code crowd to know that they have their spies and they are aggressive in not just waiting for things to come to them, but hunting for violations. There is definitely uneven enforcement. There really seems to be a parallel with Islamic states like Iran with their religion police. I love BYU and it is still part of my life, but this does touch on the dark side of the place. I suspect the truth is somewhere between the disgruntled and the apologist PR machine.

  • Ldsfan South Jordan, UT
    April 16, 2011 8:17 a.m.

    I for one was happy when the church dropped the sports programs at BYU Idaho. It does little to build up the church. If BYU dropped sports, I would be fine. I see how members quarrel Over football talk and hardly talk to each other to the point where the BYU fans don't come to church after a loss so they don't have the hear it from their neighbors. Is this what the church teaches? It is simply sports. It is taken way too serious. Are our lives so boring that we have to live it through a bunch of young men and women? Drop sports at BYU.

  • Honor Code Denver, Colorado
    April 16, 2011 7:59 a.m.

    Remember Black 14???? It destroyed Wyoming Football!!

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    April 16, 2011 7:10 a.m.

    Sorry Moderate. You have BYU confused with the University of Colorado who had coaching staff taking recruits to sex parties where it was also confirmed that there was a little more than just alchohol served at those parties. That allegation is so obviously borrowed that it lacks any credence or merit for comment. You could though, talk to the former Buffalo Head Coach at the time who now coaches in L.A. in the PAC 10. It's quite possible that some of the very people qouted in this rediculous smear piece of journalism were recruited by Colorado and reached a level of mind at those recruiting parties that they still get confused as to where and when those things did actually happen. Drop a few bucks and a little suggestion and it's amazing how suddenly the memory suddenly emerges and an implication without substance is so easily laid at anyones door who is being targeted. Sorry your line broke on that fishing cast and that you lost hook, line and sinker.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    April 16, 2011 6:31 a.m.

    A true pharasee thy self having just moved rocks & boulders to find the source of sifting sand that is is so easily swept up by prevailing currents and blowing in thy own face so that thou can curse the universe for blinding your eyes while you search so obsessively and diligently for the faults of those whom you freely choose to live among yourself. One does not have to travail far to find your sort. You stick out like sore thumbs.

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    April 16, 2011 5:21 a.m.

    Their publication is exactly entitled for what they print. "DeadSpin"; it is dead news, and it's a spin on the truth.

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    April 15, 2011 9:11 p.m.

    I don't know about everyone else, but I would like to just sit back and watch the two statisticians go at it. Very thought provoking and informative. For the record, my money is on Koke.(Wait, I guess that would be an Honor Code violation. My bad.)

  • Koke Spanish Fork, UT
    April 15, 2011 7:39 p.m.

    I M LDS 2,

    Another point to my statistician colleague. You say that

    "As a statistician, you should know you don't test differences between "populations". You test differences between samples and infer the characteristics of the populations. But you didn't even do that."

    You are right, I didn't test differences between samples because you only use samples to make inferences when it is impractical to gather complete population statistics. In the case of this debate, we have complete population data, so sample taking and inference doesn't make sense.

    By your argument, we should select a random sample of say 200 BYU athletes and measure for ethnicity and honor code violation to draw an inference about BYU racism. A silly exercise with a high error rate when you have the whole population data.

    As an accomplished statistician, I'm sure you knew that but just forgot it for the moment.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    April 15, 2011 7:29 p.m.

    @okc ute and duh

    Can you show me where I referenced utah fans or ute supporters as a whole? No I specifically said the "ute trolls that are always on these blogs" which is a very specific set of individuals such as hedgehog for instance.

    I'm perfectly aware there are plenty of utah fans that are LDS, are decent people, are not haters, etc. I know and associate with many.

    I called out a select few that have posted in this very article and who do so daily and always criticize BYU, lie about BYU, or agree with something like this obvious hit peice that tries to paint BYU in a bad light.

    So if you are not one of those individuals you do not need to take that mantle onto yourself nor do you need to try and prove something that I never even asserted.

    Reading comprehension is vital.

  • Winglish Lehi, UT
    April 15, 2011 7:00 p.m.

    I think the bottom line is that the LDS athlete who wants to hide his or her transgressions knows how to hide them. They know that there is no forgiveness from the BYU Honor Code Office. The non-LDS athlete doesn't have the wherewithal to keep their sins completely confidential. The BYU campus, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, has a bunch of Pharisees who are looking for every opportunity to turn in a sinner. There are also many wonderful, non-judgemental kids. There are definitely both types.

    Jim McMahon keeps getting referenced because he's a white guy who partied. He also grew up in Utah, was familiar with the culture, and knew enough to keep his mouth shut and only party with others who kept their mouth shut.

    It's kind of an ironic situation that those who can most successfully circumvent the Honor Code are those who understand it the best. I think that puts a greater responsibility on the LDS athlete and coach to help their non-LDS brethren to be found only in holy places. Don't you?

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    April 15, 2011 6:46 p.m.

    statistician on statistician crime!

    Get your tickets


  • Koke Spanish Fork, UT
    April 15, 2011 6:11 p.m.

    IM LDS 2,

    Yes, I am a statistician. It appears that my logic offends the conclusion you want to draw and that you seek to discredit my arguments by turning this into a debate over semantics or even my individual worth. Let's get back to the point.

    There is tremendous stupidity in drawing conclusions about the question of bigotry from raw comparisons of unvetted data. I made no conclusions, but only put forward the hypothesis that if you remove the obvious bias in this data, the picture will likely look much different.

    Since you disagree so strongly, let me seek clarification with and example. Are you saying that a person who didn't value sexual abstinence before college is equally likely to abstain from sex during college as a person who grew up believing in abstinence (even if they signed a promise not too)?

    And would you finally conclude that if a person in the former group did not keep their commitment at the same rate as the person who always espoused those values that it had something to do with their race?

    If you agree, you are the bigot. If you don't, I win.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    April 15, 2011 5:37 p.m.

    I guess the guestion is. If you're a black non-mormon with no intentions to join the church, Y would you ever consider BYU?

    This ariticle screams run away - run away as fast as you can. Your type is not wanted here.

    As BYU attempts to capture more of a national "exposure", what does it say to the world having almost no black players on the team? For many (if not most) this will be the face of the mormon church.

  • CG Orem, UT
    April 15, 2011 5:31 p.m.

    I M LDS 2

    As any statistician making six figures should know, statistics are meaningless unless they account for all reasonably possible variables.

    Since the author of this study only considered race, his study is fundamentally flawed. You as a supposed statistician should know this.

    If I were you boss, six figures or not, I'd have serious doubts about the quality of your job performance.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    April 15, 2011 5:16 p.m.

    It spreads like cancer. Wrong doing is being excused with the minority card. It's destroying the country.

  • aggieblue Saint George, UT
    April 15, 2011 5:14 p.m.

    Has everyone read the article and responses of the three cited in the story. They are all black, only three, what about the other 67. Where are the excerpts from their interviews. The article cites .... other cases, media reports, and interviews as the source. It sounds like weak investigative reporting, sometimes "data" is purposally skewed to support the allegation. I wonder here.

    I wonder where this data came from. You know that the Y keeps this as confidental as possible. The reason that so many of those known cases are athletes is simply because, when a player is absent from a game, it is obvious and public.

    It appears to me that the article is designed to identify the Y is, as the article states, "its racial legacy". It is not about the Y as much as it is an assult on the LDS belief.

    When you enroll at the Y, you sign the honor code. Why would anyone say, they didn't think that they meant it. Rules are rules and your signature is a bond.

    Enough said, the greatest majority of students, white black or other, respect and honor the honor code.

  • newwest Ferron, UT
    April 15, 2011 5:06 p.m.

    If you listen to the Kehl interview, he did a case-by-case analysis of the black players that were suspended, and found a high percentage had either been charged with crimes (which would have gotten them suspended at most universities) or had pregnant girlfriends (couldn't hide the transgression). When you eliminate those groups, the disparity between races isn't nearly so dramatic.
    I listened to Darron Smith's interview with Gordon Monson. He danced all around the question of why he didn't include some interviews with black players who had a good experience at BYU, and basically said "You'll have to buy my book to get those." So, he's using some sensational material to promote his book, which has yet to find a publisher.
    There are so many factors to examine. For example, BYU has many married football players. What is the percentage of married players, white and black? If there is a higher percentage of married white players, wouldn't that affect the number of chastity-related HC violations?
    And so on...

  • MBAmama Kaysville, UT
    April 15, 2011 4:39 p.m.

    Since 1993, of the 70 student-athletes suspended for breaking the honor code, 54 of them (80 percent) were minorities and 41 of them (60 percent) were black"


    Is this number true? Can BYU confirm it?

    If so then I think that about says it all regardless of the opinions of pro or anti-BYU former players.


    No, these numbers are not accurate because BYU does not release information about who is suspended or how many students are disciplined by the Honor Code office. The only figures they were able to correct would be those that were either outed in the media or had criminal charges (therefore, public). I knew dozens of white students (and even a few athletes) at BYU that were busted for the honor code and suspended, but most people never hear about it because they either leave quietly, or on their own.

    The article was horribly biased and inaccurate, and the media reporting on it have not done anyone justice. What has hapeened to journalism that they think it is ok to just take one side and run with it??

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    April 15, 2011 4:32 p.m.

    No...but I can direct you to where you can get a drug test...Obviously since you haven't come close to commenting on the subject of this discussion on former minority athletes who broke BYU honor standards and were disciplined... I wouldn't rule out that there might be a need for you to have one.

  • Still Blue after all these years Kaysville, UT
    April 15, 2011 4:29 p.m.

    Clearly the Crowton and Hale years were a disaster.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    April 15, 2011 4:20 p.m.

    What's a minority?


    Are you prejudice toward BYU? Talk about hyprocrisy.

  • 3for5spotshooter Sun Valley, Idaho
    April 15, 2011 4:10 p.m.


    Anybody know anything about pharmaceutical companies and drug testing procedures?

    The statistical sample here is TOO SMALL...

    Maybe sociology?

    Again too small a sample population...

    Maybe the question should be how many athletes and non-athletes at BYU are disciplined for honor code violations...

    and what is the makeup of the population...

    would be a good place to start...


    Didn't know before I came...

    Don't think so...

    More likely..

    Heard it and it went in one ear and out the other...

    NOw I recall Jimmer coming because he was shown dances, cookies and punch...

    and NO DRUGS and NO PARTIES...

    So my sample is one little white guard and so...

    Only black athletes are shown parties..

    Isn't my sample large enough?

    Guess I'll write a book...

    Tempest in a tea pot..

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 15, 2011 4:07 p.m.


    No, Koke speculated without data, pure and simple.

    I don't much worry whether or not you would hire me. I make over six figures doing statistics.

    I'm guessing you don't.

    As Trump would say, "YOU are fired!"

  • Cougar in Texas Houston, TX
    April 15, 2011 4:02 p.m.


    Did you listen to Brown's interview?

    He had NO intention of joining when he came to BYU.

    Perhaps they could also talk to Brian Logan, who just finished his eligibility as a non-LDS student-athlete. When Logan gives a positive review of his time at BYU (which he has already done unprovoked in the past), then what will your excuse be?

  • Chris_B Salt Lake City, UT
    April 15, 2011 3:52 p.m.

    Bottom Line - the Honor Code is one of the BEST things about BYU, and it sets it apart from most of the other schools in the country.

    I am a white LDS male who attended BYU in the 1980s. In 1986, I did the same thing Brandon Davies did - I slept with my girlfriend. I am not proud of it. I felt bad about doing it. I spoke with my parents first, prayed about it, and then decided to see my BYU bishop. He was kind and helpful. I voluntarily withdrew myself from the university. I was also disfellowshipped.

    I had a lot to lose. I had a scholarship and a great job as a dormitory resident assistant (free room and board). Basically, everything was paid for - a sweet deal for a college kid. I could have kept my mouth shut; my girlfriend wanted me to. But, I believe I did the right thing.

    A year later I was back in full fellowship and eventually graduated from BYU. The diploma hangs on my office wall and I'm proud of my school. It doesn't matter who or what you are - the Code is the Code.

  • Uteology Fort Worth, Texas
    April 15, 2011 3:46 p.m.

    "Since 1993, of the 70 student-athletes suspended for breaking the honor code, 54 of them (80 percent) were minorities and 41 of them (60 percent) were black"


    Is this number true? Can BYU confirm it?

    If so then I think that about says it all regardless of the opinions of pro or anti-BYU former players.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    April 15, 2011 3:46 p.m.

    "Curtis Brown was recruited and spent his first two years at BYU as a non-LDS kid. He is perhaps in the best position to comment on life as a non-LDS and LDS student-athlete."

    Cougar in tX,

    Actually I think this would be a weak example.

    Clearly Brown was sold on the LDS faith and was moving toward joining. The only real example you should use is the non-mormon who had no intention to join the church. That's a much different prespective.... and one that unfortunately is looked down on in provo.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    April 15, 2011 3:44 p.m.


    What the heck are you talking about??? First off let's get the Blacks given the priesthood date right. It was in 1978 not during the civil right's movement of the 1960's. And the Extermination order was decreed by the white Govenor of Missouri Milburn Boggs in the early 1840's with the intent to exterminate or drive the Mormons out of Missouri. It has nothing to do with your absurd misinformative remark that the Mormons were out to exterminate Blacks. That's obviously a spin of some preacher who makes his living off of preaching and selling prayers and blessings for money... and who's obviously lost a few members of his congregation to the LDS church along the money from his collection plates that they used to donate and provided his means of support. If you're going to come on here and make rediculous comments like that then you truly are the fool that you undoubtedly have just portrayed yourself to be.

  • Ragnar Danneskjold Bountiful, UT
    April 15, 2011 3:33 p.m.

    Re:Solomon Levi
    Thanks for the input. I thought that was surely the case.

  • Cougar in Texas Houston, TX
    April 15, 2011 3:31 p.m.

    Idaho Coug:

    Curtis Brown was recruited and spent his first two years at BYU as a non-LDS kid. He is perhaps in the best position to comment on life as a non-LDS and LDS student-athlete.

    Ragnar Danneskjold
    In the case you refer to, the athlete had one year of eligibility left and was on probation at BYU. He was also the subject of an active police investigation. NCAA rules at the time forbid an athlete from transferring if he was on any kind of probation. Since the police investigation was ongoing (and the athlete later pleaded guilty to a lesser charge), BYU was hardly in a position to remove his probation. Thus, it was the NCAA that prevented the transfer, not BYU.

    Just one more example where Smith only gives part of the story. There are so many more.

  • Mr. Bojangles Saint George, UT
    April 15, 2011 3:29 p.m.

    IDC | 1:31 p.m. April 15, 2011
    Boise, ID
    I was personally discriminated against as a BYU student. I took my 3.7 freshman GPA to get a scholarship and they laughed at me. They said, "let's see, you are white, from Utah, and a mormon. You will have to do better than that." It is about time that my story is heard.

    Deadspin - you can contact me through this forum if you want the rest of the juicy details.
    Haha wow dude... Thats the truth anywhere. You have to be some kind of minority to get a special scholarship. That's why I'm at Dixie State with a scholarship instead at BYU without one.

    Was it right for someone to say that to you? No. Is it true? Yes.

  • Clear Thinker Draper, UT
    April 15, 2011 3:21 p.m.

    Look at all the mormon ute fans piling on screaming see this is why you don't need to be a BYU fan if you are mormon. Guess what, these same feelings are held against the church as a whole and not just BYU.

  • OC64 Edmonton, AB
    April 15, 2011 3:21 p.m.

    It is biased to only publish the opinions of those students with negative experiences.

    It is just as biased to discout the opinions of those with negative experiences and only publish those with positive experiences.

  • Duh west jordan, ut
    April 15, 2011 3:15 p.m.

    I love the comment by OKC UTE "And Duckhunter, not all Utah fans are haters. And we all don't hate the Church, most of us are active and strong members. You hate being stereotyped so don't do it to us".

    I live in a community of many LDS faithful who are UTE fans. We love the rivalry but there is no hatred. We congratulate each other after our wins and we cheer for each other when we are not playing one another. And with BYU fans, there are some who just thrive on the hatred too. It does not matter if you are LDS or not, if you hate you are no better than those who promote any type of racism or other disfuntional attitude about society.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    April 15, 2011 3:14 p.m.

    Lux et Veritas

    "These two anecdotes don't change the statistics reported by Deadspin."

    They may not change the statistics of the report, but they certainly do change the interpretation of those statistics, especially since Bryan Kehl and Curtis Brown didn't just give anecdotal accounts, but were personally acquainted with many of the subjects and had first hand knowledge of the biases those subjects had that tainted the analysis.

    The Deseret News has an obligation to present the other side of the argument when a study is released that is so obviously one-sided.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    April 15, 2011 3:07 p.m.

    Royal Blue
    You have to take ESPN's Mike and Mike as well as Collin Cowherd especially...with an exceptionally large grain of Salt. For's their M.O. to mediate controversy. And how many times haven't we heard "The Herd" himself elaborate that hate sells. Collin is the Glenn Beck of Sports Radio. If he can't find something relative rational to say then he will pitch the irrational absurd to stir the pot up. Jimbo definitely was set up and got totally ambushed on the Mike and Mike interview with the Bradon Davies question.

    Hedgie tried to pull this same exact uninspred reasoning to make it appear relavent. One moment they were dicussing Tiger Woods final round charge in the Masters...and Jimbo being the humorous and colorful clown joked about falling asleep and missing the end only to suddenly being blasted with the Brandon Davies Honorcode issue simply because they new that he would would say something. It was so obvious that it caught Jimbo off guard but he made the remark as a joke..then said he was no longer comfortable with the topic and moved on to Jake Cutler's Superbowl injury.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    April 15, 2011 3:06 p.m.

    Lux et Veritas:

    Re: "statistics reported by Deadspin" (the fox guarding the hen house)

    Do you believe everything you read, or just selective anti-Mormon propaganda? I suspect it is the latter.

  • scott Alpine, UT
    April 15, 2011 3:05 p.m.

    Come On

    I tend to trust people like Bryan Kehl and Curtis Brown, who have proven to be trustworthy, more than a stranger with an obvious axe to grind.

    The fact that Mr. Smith chose to focus solely on race in his study seriously undermines his objectivity and the fact that he misquoted or took out of context some of the quotes from his interviews undermines his credibility.

    Often the truth is not somewhere in the middle, but skewed to one extreme, false.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    April 15, 2011 3:05 p.m.

    "You are a bomb throwing, drive-by shooter"

    Yes, that's my "gangtar" name.


  • Duh west jordan, ut
    April 15, 2011 2:53 p.m.

    Obviously this writer could not find anything to write so, he chose to pull the racist card because no one would listen to him otherwise. Get over it people, BYU is as racist as Utah or any other higher institution in the country. Only because BYU has an honor code do they get all the attention. Why don't we look at the Ohio state program which had a few of it's star athletes suspended for next season for violations of NCAA rules. I can't remember but I think the majority of them were black athletes. Why is the country not in an uproar and blaming this on racism. If something as simple as a HC violation issue can cause an uproar about racism, Ohio States administration should be put in jail. Just saying........Grow up people. If the shoe fits, too bad.

  • Lux et Veritas Draper, UT
    April 15, 2011 2:52 p.m.

    It's interesting that the Deseret News would publish this article solely on the premise that two African-American BYU Alumnus had positive experiences.

    These two anecdotes don't change the statistics reported by Deadspin. Furthermore, they don't justify the title of this article.

    I like BYU, but the Deseret News' bias is far too obvious here.

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    April 15, 2011 2:49 p.m.


    You are a bomb throwing, drive-by shooter. You have no credibility.

  • Solomon Levi Alpine, UT
    April 15, 2011 2:43 p.m.

    Ragnar Danneskjold

    There's no truth whatsoever to a student not being to transfer credits from BYU to another school because of being expelled for an Honor Code violation. As long as he passed his classes and earned the credits, they transfer, period. There would be nothing on his transcript to indicate why he left BYU.

  • Come On Salt Lake City, UT
    April 15, 2011 2:42 p.m.

    Just because a story has been reported a certain way, or you think it happened a certain way...does not mean it did. Until you know the whole truth...somewhere in the middle is actually what happened. I think it is interesting that people are convinced the deadspin article is false, but positive the BD story is true. I am in no way referring to racism in either story, just the reporting of the aspects.

  • Ragnar Danneskjold Bountiful, UT
    April 15, 2011 2:32 p.m.

    One thing I found interesting in the article was when one of the athletes said that he couldn't transfer to another school because of his dismissal from BYU due to HC violations. Is this reality stretched as well? Is it true that it is next to impossible to transfer your credits to another school if you are dismissed because of honor code violations? I didn't know that.
    Eligibility is something I know about from an athletic standpoint. I am more curios about John Smith student who makes a mistake and then tries to get his life together at another university. Anybody have some input they could give me?

  • Solomon the Wise Alpine, UT
    April 15, 2011 2:32 p.m.

    I M LDS 2

    Koke didn't make an assertion; he stated a statistical hypothesis based on a conjecture about two or more populations.

    You fail because of intellectual dishonesty. I wouldn't hire you.

  • 3for5spotshooter Sun Valley, Idaho
    April 15, 2011 2:24 p.m.

    Imagine an athlete...

    Any athlete...

    Any color...

    Going to BYU and NOT knowing about the CODE...


    I didn't know is just not going to feed the bulldog...

    Or in this case...

    the cougar..

    Not buying it...

    Now. Imagine being black, and LDS and a released slave in Missouri in the 1830's. Anybody do any 1960s civil rights marches? I was there. The blacks got the priesthood at exactly the right time in American History. 1960 America was not pretty - Marches in Selma. Freedom riders - on buses in the South terrorized for RIDING PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION.

    Seriously, black and LDS would have been a seriously bad way to go. Afterall the LDS people had an EXTERMINATION ORDER.. To kill everyone...

    Sort of "NAZI LIKE" don't you think? That was the USA pre and post Civil War into the 1970s. The church is the doctrine..not the members with faulty attitudes...

    Great school...

    Great state...

    Don't like the code?

    Go to a party school!!!

  • OKC UTE Moore, OK
    April 15, 2011 2:19 p.m.

    I love the Church and applaud BYU for their actions with Brandon Davies. Remember he went to the school and told them he broke the Honor Code. He had HONOR. What I found amazing was all the BYU fans that blasted the school for suspending him during the MWC tourney. The school did the right thing. The fans had a fit which IS hipocracy.

    The guy who wrote the article does sound like he has an axe to grind if he is leaving out facts. His article shouldn't be taken seriously.

    And Duckhunter, not all Utah fans are haters. And we all don't hate the Church, most of us are active and strong members. You hate being stereotyped so don't do it to us.

  • royalblue Alpine, UT
    April 15, 2011 2:11 p.m.

    PAC 12 loves U

    Jim McMahon was interviewed the other on "Mike and Mike" on ESPN, before this story broke. When asked about Brandon Davies and how Jim managed to remain at BYU, McMahon's response was, paraphrasing, "hang out with girls who know how to keep their mouths shut". They didn't delve any further into the topic.

    There are lots of students at BYU who've broken the Honor Code, but who never got caught. It's a certainty that Jim broke the Honor Code, but it's also a certainty that he never turned himself in. There's no evidence that the Honor Code Office learned of Jim's Honor Code violations, but chose to sweep them under the rug.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 15, 2011 1:51 p.m.


    You are a statistician?

    No, my friend, you missed the "first rule" of statistics, or science. The first rule is NOT to conjecture or assert anything without DATA to support it!

    So what do you do?

    Without ANY data whatsoever, you assert: "When you remove data points for these and other obvious sources of bias and compare 'apples to apples', you will probably find statistically insignificant differences between the populations."

    As a statistician, you should know you don't test differences between "populations". You test differences between samples and infer the characteristics of the populations. But you didn't even do that.

    I think you fail as a statistician. I wouldn't hire you.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    April 15, 2011 1:34 p.m.

    Hedgie and others
    Funny that Bill Cosby has been for several years now, crusading to try and get Black males to stand up and be men and take resposibility for their actions. He specifically at the Urban League in Toledo,Ohio about two weeks ago made a point to go out of his way to point out that Basketball, Football, Baseball and other sports as well as hangin out on the corner hooking up with the local chicks and fathering illigitimate children by several different girls are not concidered majors in college. Stands to reason that if someone like Bill Cosby is making it his personal campaign that his target audience should begin listening instead of making excuses. He's trying to teach responsibility within Black communities and targets Younger Black males specifically about their sexual and moral conduct and the importantnce of actually using their educational opportunities through sports to get a real education... and not for the many Black athletes to consider college as nothing more than a mere stepping stone to the pro's. There must be some basis that there is a need to do so...otherwise Cosby wouldn't be wasting his time like Deadspin.

  • IDC Boise, ID
    April 15, 2011 1:31 p.m.

    I was personally discriminated against as a BYU student. I took my 3.7 freshman GPA to get a scholarship and they laughed at me. They said, "let's see, you are white, from Utah, and a mormon. You will have to do better than that." It is about time that my story is heard.

    Deadspin - you can contact me through this forum if you want the rest of the juicy details.

  • Jax Bountiful, UT
    April 15, 2011 12:58 p.m.

    I have no doubt that some racism exists at BYU. I've seen it with my own eyes. Still, I think much of the disparity among the honor code infractions between Whites and minorities has to do with being Mormon or non-Mormon, not with race.

    The problem is that BYU is a Mormon school, and Mormons have a history of racism that they were slow to change when the rest of the country began to reject racist ideas. Racism can still be found in the Mormon scriptures, something that I doubt will ever change. So it isn't really a surprise that when the statistics show a high number of minorities falling victim to the honor code, the most obvious conclusion is that racism is a factor.

  • Ragnar Danneskjold Bountiful, UT
    April 15, 2011 12:49 p.m.

    I think that the issue sounds like it is based more on religion than it is on race. But for those of you saying that it is no issue AT ALL, take away the opinions of the article and simply look at the numbers they present. It is probably not what it seems, but just looking at their numbers, things look pretty fishy. BYU should look into it a little bit. I'm not saying they are guilty or not guilty, but with something like the honor code, a great deal of effort should be put into making sure it is even handed.

  • Idaho Coug Meridian, Idaho
    April 15, 2011 12:48 p.m.

    I personally think true racism rarely occurs anymore in our modern society. Today classism is the primary driver for different treatment. This is often reflected in wealth versus poverty but also just generally between different groups that have little or nothing to do with race (religion, education, interests, geography, gender, etc.).

    At BYU, non-LDS (regardless of color) are the clear minority and in most cases have difficulties that LDS do not. I think it is telling that this article quoted Kehl and Brown. Two black athletes who are also LDS. Both articles are missing the point which is that disadvantages or difficulties at BYU are reflected primarily through religion not race.

    Non-LDS do not have the same safety net of confession through their Bishop which in turn does not get reported to the HC Office. They also can have a natural struggle with some of the HC issues that are otherwise seen as accepted and healthy in their own group.

    I DO NOT think the HC knowingly treats non-LDS differently. But I do think that non-LDS students at BYU naturally have challenges that LDS students either don't have or are more adept at navigating.

  • AZguy Phoenix, AZ
    April 15, 2011 12:33 p.m.

    This is not journalism. This is a biased supposition based on skewed data. I for one would have at least contacted Derwin Gray. He says Mormonism is a cult, but he might have a non-biased take on racism and the honor.

    Could they have contacted Brian Mitchell? I would highly regard his opinion as a non-LDS African American former player and coach.

    I know there are racist folks at BYU (and in my church for that matter), but to say there is institutional racism at BYU is ridiculous.

    On the positive, this article could bring up good questions and a review by the BYU honor code office and athletic department to ensure that non-LDS and minority students are getting the support they need to be successful at BYU.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    April 15, 2011 12:31 p.m.

    @qwest perfected and the other ute trolls

    qwest but of course it is about BYU and utah because the utah trolls like yourself have made it be about that. Just read the comments. Almost every ute troll that regularly posts on these forums has commented here agreeing with these allegations. That is no surprise to any of us as we know you simply are haters of all things BYU and all things Mormon. You want to believe it, you probably already believed it despite there not really being any evidence of it because your own anti BYU and/or Mormon bigotry shapes your opinions to begin with.

    But other than it being something to argue about with ute trolls it is really of no consequence. It is not embarrassing to any of us despite the hope of the ute trolls that it is. We are not concerned that it will cast BYU in a bad light because the truth is most people either don't care or have already made up their mind. You know people like you that blindly hate and believe anything that you think confirm your prejudices.

  • Igualmente Mesa, AZ
    April 15, 2011 12:24 p.m.

    A test of honor is only revealed when someone fails that test and admits to it.

    Deadspin, nobody's picking on y'all. Stop preachin the hate and oppression. Young men of all color are offered an opportunity to better themselves as an athlete and individual at Brigham Young. At BYU the honor code provides the environment for growth.

    Honor, integrity, ethics, and morality is what separates man from the animal kingdom.

  • Qwest Perfected Salt Lake City, UT
    April 15, 2011 12:08 p.m.

    This has nothing to do with the byu Utah rivalry.

    It is what it is and the numbers speak for themselves. You can come up with whatever excuse you want to, the numbers clearly tell the story.

    This isn't limited to just the football program either - it goes accross all sports.

    byu lives and dies by their honor code it's just too bad that people can't admit to the results. As hard as it was to lose Brandon Davies this year, the press byu got from it was mostly positive so they loved it, now that it looks ugly, it's nothing but excuses.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    April 15, 2011 12:05 p.m.

    Is every student who attends BYU and then breaks the honor code caught? No, that's why it is called an HONOR CODE! There is no campus gastapo and each student is on their honor! If a BYU althete or student doesn't live the honor code, then does he/she have any honor? Honor is an interesting word, isn't it? Yes, some have abused it, but what honor do they have in doing so? Honor is reserved for those who have it! That's the point, not who might "get away" with something. Its about honor!

  • steel Murray, UT
    April 15, 2011 11:57 a.m.

    I guess mountainman would be an expert on the race card living in Hatenlake Idaho.

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    April 15, 2011 11:54 a.m.

    While I am not the biggest BYU fan, I do know Deadspin and the site is atrocious and unprofessional. They are bloggers and not real journalists. Their parent company is also responsible for stealing the lost iPhone prototype. Again, no love lost for BYU but Deadspin is not journalism, it is internet garbage.

  • Koke Spanish Fork, UT
    April 15, 2011 11:46 a.m.

    This is silly. I am a statistician, and as statistics typically are, these statistics have been interpreted by amateurs to draw emotionally satisfying conclusions that no true statistician would ever endorse.

    1st rule in statistics: Identify and remove bias. This means that when you are comparing groups you must adjust the populations so that other factors that reasonably contribute to the observed outcome are removed. Thus leaving yourself with unbiased data.

    The question is: Are minority athletes held to a higher standard with respect to the honor code than white students?

    Before examining the data you must make sure the populations match. Clear points of bias exist if one student is LDS or grew up with honor code beliefs vs a student who didn't. Other interesting points relate to self-reporting. That is, was the student "caught" or did they turn themselves in?"

    When you remove data points for these and other obvious sources of bias and compare "apples to apples", you will probably find statistically insignificant differences between the populations.

    This, however, is not nearly as emotionally satisfying as declaring bigotry or institutional perfection. There are some bad leaders and students at people at BYU. So what?

  • Cougar in Texas Houston, TX
    April 15, 2011 11:36 a.m.


    And if these claims are false, what then?

    I can think of several white athletes who have been disciplined in exactly the same way for the same or similar reasons. They don't get the pub nor the uproar.

    I challenge everyone to listen to the radio interviews with Curtis Brown and Brian Kehl, and also the author, Darron Smith. Brown and Kehl will open your eyes to the reality of the star witnesses in Smith's "research". Smith's own ignorance of the current status (last 6 years) of BYU athletics, of the many non-LDS athletes who have loved their time at BYU, of the disciplined LDS athletes who have come back to BYU, and the revelation that he is seeking publicity for a future book, should cement the opinion that his article is nothing but a hit piece.

    Also Oneil Chambers, Tico Pringle, and others quoted in the article have stated that either their comments were altered, or were taken out of context.

    No, the deadspin article has already received much more attention than it deserves. If there are legitimate gripes, then they should be presented legitimately.

  • ImaCaMan Redlands, CA
    April 15, 2011 11:35 a.m.

    Let the spin - spin - spinning begin!!

  • Pavalova Surfers Paradise, AU
    April 15, 2011 11:28 a.m.

    There are always people who don't get caught, white, black, or purple. Everyone know what they're getting into when going to BYU. It's just that simple.

    Read it, Learn it, Live it! If you can't, for your own sake, go somewhere else. Don't waste a year of eligibility trying to figure out if you can live this way or not.

    Many more athletes have survived the HC than have not from all nationalities. Let's not make this issue something that it's not please.

  • PAC 12 loves U Sandy, Utah
    April 15, 2011 11:25 a.m.

    Remember Jim Mcmahon? He was a white quarterback for the Y, that won the M&M bowl back in 1980. He was a non member and he too violated the Honor Code. Why wasn't he kicked out of school or suspended? Hmmm..... That seems fishy to me!

  • Starfarer Mesa, AZ
    April 15, 2011 11:18 a.m.


    What hypocrisy?

    You keep claiming that there are numerous LDS students that are being treated differently. You keep claiming that there is racial discrimination on something you have no statistics, no information, no knowledge of at all.

    No matter how many times you keep saying it, all you have is several disgruntled athletes and a professor with an axe to grind.

    You claim that you are not a BYU hater, yet the only side you take is the ones that further your own agenda. You continually shine a huge light the negatives and disregard the positives.

    That's hypocrisy.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    April 15, 2011 11:17 a.m.

    Interesting that the defense against the article focuses on race and religion. Nobody denies the section about recruits taken to sex and drinking parties. I guess anything goes to land the recruit, then you can apply an honor code.

  • Starfarer Mesa, AZ
    April 15, 2011 11:11 a.m.

    Otis Spurlock


    Who needs to spin it at all?

    Let's consider all the press the BYU BB team, Brandon Davies, and the Honor code have already generated. You think this is going to be the keystone of what people think about BYU, the Honor Code, or the Church? I hardly think so. The majority of the press has been positive!

    "Maybe it's now time for the Church to consider doing away with BYU athletics."

    Based on what? I guarantee that the brotheren are not concerned about this article, or what it might do to BYU athletics at all.

    BYU athletics aren't going anywhere no matter how badly you want them to.

  • MenaceToSociety Draper, UT
    April 15, 2011 11:03 a.m.

    It's easy to merely dismiss these claims as being from people with an axe to grind. But what I'd these claims are true? Is that what you want BYU to be about?

    This is what I know: I've known some white guys from high school who went to BYU, partied in high school, partied at BYU, and never were suspended or kicked out for honor code violations. They played 4 years straight. Explain that. I also know and have known many BYU fans / alumni who judge people based on skin color and say rotten things about black people. They say stuff that I just don't get. I just don't get why some people would have such negative attitudes toward people because of their skin color.

    These personal experiences of mine lead me to suspect these claims may be true. If these claims are true, should you address the issues or live in denial?

  • Noodlekaboodle Salt Lake City, UT
    April 15, 2011 11:01 a.m.

    This article is as biased as the one on deadspin. Just like deadspin never gave the perspective of black BYU athletes who had a positive experince the Deseret News never addressed the players with a negative experience. So they are really the same thing, fake journalism that is pushing an agenda. The only difference is who's side that they are on, like most issues I expect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

  • Y's Guy Salt Lake City, UT
    April 15, 2011 10:58 a.m.

    hedgehog | 10:02 a.m. April 15, 2011
    Ann Arbor, MI

    One thing is for sure--we have no doubt about how you read it.

    Yes, in this day and age, in a society as litigious as ours, with hedgies around every corner, there is institutionalized 'soft' racism at BYU.It's in their policies, it's reflected in the comments of university administrators and it's taught in the classroom. I'm sure the lawsuits are piling up.

    Look, we get it. You don't like BYU, the LDS Church, missionaries, green jello, and roadshows. It does not matter what the corpus of information may reflect in reality, you are not going to accept it and there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will change the calculus of your thinking.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    April 15, 2011 10:55 a.m.

    "Bottom line: If you don't like BYU's honor code, don't go there!"


    I agree. But many who "do go there" don't live by the HC. This "racial issue" goes away when the HC administration decides to disipline the Mormon athlete the same way the disipline the non-mormon athelet.

    Again, hyprocrisy is the real issue.

  • Otis Spurlock Ogden, UT
    April 15, 2011 10:55 a.m.

    There is really no positive way to spin this. This hurts the Church. Honestly, what do you think people who know nothing or little of the LDS Faith think about the Church once they have read this article.

    Maybe it's now time for the Church to consider doing away with BYU athletics.

  • HerbSewell Las Vegas, Nevada
    April 15, 2011 10:48 a.m.

    If this picks up more traction, I wouldn't be surprised to see ex-black athletes coming out of the woodwork to both defend and attack this article.
    I think it has a lot to do with perception, and taking responsibility for one's actions.

  • CougarBlue Heber City, UT
    April 15, 2011 10:45 a.m.

    This article is so one-sided it cannot be considered serious journalism. This reminds me when the University of New Mexico sent a group of students to BYU to examine their "racist" views. I worked as a desk clerk at Deseret Towers. As I talked with the students several of them said they did not come to examine BYU's "racist" policies. They could care less. They said they had already made up their mind about BYU and it didn't matter what they found out. They came just to have a free trip. I was astounded at their outspoken bias and dishonesty. Needless to say they went back and reported exactly what they intended to report in the first place. They did not care about honesty, truth or integrity. This article is the same.

    When much of this happened it did cause a great concern. That is one of the reasons the head football coach was asked to resign or get fired. He did not stress the honor code at all. He lost the vision of the University.

    Sometimes athletes have to be verbally beat over the head before they get the idea they must follow rules.

  • chubbuckidahocougfan Chubbuck, Idaho
    April 15, 2011 10:41 a.m.

    The issue is that for black athletes or non-mormon athletes, the honor code principles and values are not lived by these individuals prior to entering BYU. The principles of no pre-marital sex, no drugs, no alcohol, no swearing, etc. are foreign to non-mormon athletes and most blacks that come to BYU are non-mormon. This all comes down to educating & informing athletes prior to coming to BYU that are not familiar with the LDS church teachings that "these are our principles...If you don't have a desire to live by these principles or don't want to live by these principles, then BYU is not a good option for you." It's apparent that the athletes on the dead spin article were playing or recruited during the Crowton era and Crowton and his coaches never informed them to the extent that they should have been. Crowton was a poor communicator!

  • sports-junkie West Jordan, UT
    April 15, 2011 10:37 a.m.

    Ute fan rationale: BYU football is embarrassing to the church and the whole program should be dicontinued.

    Translation: BYU football is gaining momentum and even with the honor code and the recruiting restrictions, BYU is better than the U in virtually every sport. Hopefully the entire program is discontinued because this is just embarrassing to be a U fan.

    Nice try utes, BYU football isnt going anywhere.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    April 15, 2011 10:35 a.m.

    Bottom line: If you don't like BYU's honor code, don't go there! What kind of person agrees to live it on condition of admitance then whines and complains about it when you are there? There are thousands of people who will gladly take your place on BYU's campus! Don't like it? Please, please go somewhere else!

  • dhsalum Saint George, UT
    April 15, 2011 10:33 a.m.

    *maybe some of the stuff is true

  • dhsalum Saint George, UT
    April 15, 2011 10:32 a.m.

    Terrible article by a former professor with a grudge, with quotes only from former athletes who have similar grudges... Oh and the Steve Young quote, which he said was incorrect right after...
    I've never gone to BYU so I'm no eyewitness, but its obvious that most of the examples he gives were in the Crowton era. When he didn't care as much about the honor code as he did recruiting good athletes. So many some of the stuff is true... But I'm confident that the program is better run now under Bronco Mendenhall.

  • TJ Eagle Mountain, UT
    April 15, 2011 10:26 a.m.

    Like I said on the Trib article. Nothing more than sour grapes from biased people who have a bone to pick with the LDS chruch or BYU. You can spin any article or book any way you want to. That goes triple for stories about racial issues.

    Couldn't agree more Mountanman. Race is always the last card to be played when no one is listening to you.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    April 15, 2011 10:23 a.m.

    Mount Olympus

    What are you talking about?

    Just because a disgruntled, former BYU professor with his own personal axe to grind decides to publish a hatchet job on BYU, doesn't prove anything.

    Dr. Smith's "findings" present only his interpretation of his research. He "conveniently" leaves out any findings or alternative conclusions from his report, which is intellectually dishonest and wouldn't pass the smell test for objectivity.

    His blog is nothing but a ploy to sell books by playing the racial card.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    April 15, 2011 10:03 a.m.

    Always the race card for those who have no other card to play! The last act of a desperate accuser.

    Re Mount Olympus: you sound like another jealous Ute!

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    April 15, 2011 10:02 a.m.

    What kind of message is this sending black non Mormon athletes? The way I read it is the deck is stacked against you and if your not Mormon your judged by different standards.

    The reason Y black athlete gets kick out at a higher rate than white mormon athlete is because they dont have the same "saftey nets". I suspect a similar % of white mormons are violating the HR.... there just not getting caught or have the "connections" to brush it under the rug.

    Hypocrisy at its finest.

  • Starfarer Mesa, AZ
    April 15, 2011 10:00 a.m.

    Mount Olympus


    Please tell us how the football program is an embarrassment?

    How does this even relate to the article?

    Next time, think before you write.

  • Mount Olympus Salt Lake, UT
    April 15, 2011 9:45 a.m.

    Great missionary tool for the lds church.
    BYU football is more of an embarrassment for the mormon church.