Charlie, Based on your theory there should be MORE LDS divorces, but instead, as
I stated earlier, for Latter-day Saints who are attempting to live as the Lord
has instructed (and by this I mean who strive for and achieve a temple
marriage), they experience LESS divorces, FAR, FAR less than the general
population experiences (7% versus 44%). This tells me that
something about our approach is.dare I say it. working. Not only
that, Charlie, but statistics prove that couples who have cohabitated have
greater failure rates in their future marriage than those who have not lived
together prior to marriage -- again, proving your theory wrong.BTW,
we are not told no kissing until marriage; we're instructed to be wise and to be
aware. Both good things, eh?
The problem is so obvious I can't believe you al don't see it.You
say NO KISSING (Rock, byuh2010, etc) and obviously nothing else until marriage.
Then at conference your leaders tell your youth to marry young (per Idaho
Cougar). And then you wonder why the mariages don't last? If you haven't even
kissed your spouse-to-be, and certainly haven't gotten intimate at all, then how
would you know if you are physically compatible?I'm not saying sleep
together but at least make sure you are physically compatible before you agree
to spend the rest of your life together. And instead you all say you're not
even supposed to kiss? WOWyour rules make marriage very risky.
One last followup comment for those who are still with us.If you are
not kissing and snuggling and touching... maybe that is why you are single.
Anyway as for the kissing thing... I'd recommend eskimo kisses.
If I may add to what I M LDS 2 says up there, think about hunger. It's very
tangible and very real and just "fighting it and endur[ing]" (to
paraphrase the Rock) would lead to starvation, but does that mean I get to gorge
myself on all the junk food I want? No, I eat a sensible diet within reason and
I remain healthy and satisfied. Why can't sexuality be the same way?
Rock,I am arguing with the Lord?Not at all.I
have not seen "the Lord" post a comment on Deseret News for over a
year!And I challenge you to show me anywhere in the scriptures (the
word of the Lord) that says a "good makeout session" is sinful.As for your waterslide analogy, I hope you realize the difference
between swimming and expressing affection. If you don't, you have worse problems
than just kissing.For the rest of us, we have this thing called
"self control". It has served us very well. We can express affection
without "going all the way". We can get angry without committing
murder. We can disagree with someone without hating them. We have the ability to
distinguish things that are harmless from things that cause harm.I
am sorry to hear you lack this ability. Since that is the case for you, I
recommend you look into Burkas for all your associates, and refrain from
touching of any kind whatsoever.But as for me and my house, we will
enjoy the blessings of human contact and affection.
You're right "Idaho Coug", it's doubley hard on people who find
themselves single again, for whatever reason, after a marriage. They have had
the "candy" and now are to abstain until its (sex, not kissing) legal
again. I speak from experience there and there are no shortcuts, we simply must
fight it and endure. Often we slip up and must determine to try try again. I
guess thats why I commented on the "make out" crack from LDS2. We all
know that kissing is a beautiful thing and is an intimate communication, but,
again, too much of a good thing can..........
Rock - I like your waterslide analogy. But I feel for our singles who are in
their late 20s on up and still have not married or who find themselves single
again after divorcing or losing a spouse. Telling everyone to stay morally clean
and keep your kisses under three seconds is (relatively) easy for those of us
who are in a happy, healthy marriage. But I imagine that those who spend
literally years wading in the kiddie pool find avoiding the water slide more and
more difficult as the years pass. I'm 44 and I can only imagine how hard it
would be to avoid the waterslide if I had never married or otherwise been single
again for an extended period of time. I understand from Bishops that immorality
is fairly high among the newly single after divorce segment of the church. Commandments are the same for all but we each have some that are more
difficult. Similarly for our homosexual members. At least straight members have
the option of intimacy through marriage.
I'm LDS 2...I'm surprised at your comment. Every person on earth with even a
few hormones can tell you that a "good make out session" is like a run
down a waterslide, once you get going it is next to impossible to stop. Moving
on to the next step becomes far far too easy, then the next step. Your comments
tell me you've been there so don't even bother trying to deny it. We have been
councelled by the Lord to avoid going near this "waterslide" of
temptation and you are not arguing with me, I don't care much what you think,
you are arguing with the Lord about His councel.And Dennis, well,
Duh, living together after marriage is difficult. No argument about that.
LDS Revelations is right. The rate of civil divorce in the church is right
around the national average. I know a busy LDS divorce attorney in Orem who
claims that, from his many years of experience, the majority of LDS divorces
occur within the first few years of marriage while long-term temple marriages
see a much lower rate of divorce. I personally think the historic
push to marry young and fast adds to this and we saw that encouragement renewed
again during conference.I would expect that the rate of temple
sealing cancellations will drop even further because my understanding is that
the church is moving toward approving these only in extreme situations. There
has been a lot of confusion in the church around temple sealing cancellations.
Men could be sealed to multiple wives in the case of death or divorce while
women could only be sealed to one person at a time. This policy naturally caused
a lot of confusion and we lost many members over it's unstated implications. I
think the church is really moving toward a sense of "it will all be worked
out in the next life" attitude.
I never once kissed MY WIFE before we were married. Of course, she wasn't my
wife back then...
@Ted H. It can be spelled as either Moslem or Muslim. In arabic to
english translations the spelling doesn't matter so much as the pronunciation.
Hence the different spellings of Koran vs. Qur'ran, Muhammed vs. Mohammed,
etc.I wouldn't be so quick to knock others when you didn't exactly
know what you were talking about either.
@LasvegaspamThe 6-7% rate you speak of is for temple divorces or the
canceling of sealings. Since most divorces in the Church are civil and do not
include cancellation of sealing this number is inaccurate or at least
misleading. The statistics I've seen place US LDS divorce rate right about the
same level as the rest of the nation.Sorry to burst your bubble.
What people do with their mouths and their tongues is nobody's business but the
other person they are sharing them with.All this talk is like a
bunch of Pharisees debating the finer points of self-righteousness, and
inventing new ways to judge and condemn others. It is sickening.There is nothing wrong with a good make-out session. There is nothing so
natural as kissing, whether it be the kind invented by the Irish, or the
Tahitians, or the French... all good. Now the eskimo thing I never got much out
of, but the others are great. Ever tried the Scandinavian method? That is
The divorce rate is over 50%.Kissing never caused a divorce.It's the
living together after being married that causes the difficulty.
To "Another perspective"...Your stats need verification. I don't
believe themTo "Reality Check" and Many others....Get real.
Kissing IS the first step to many things beyond appropriate for a people who are
trying to maintain a sense of cleanliness. As in everything, too much of a
good thing can be dangerous. Obviously, this means nothing to those of you who
don't have a belief in virtue and the like, and you will try hard to belittle
everyone else and behave like the crowds in the "great and spacious
building". (look it up)Rules number one and two should be.... keep
your kisses short and sweet and keep your mouth shut.
Have ya noticed the difference between on-screen kisses of today versus
yesteryear?? A child watching today's "kisses" might just think the
couple are attempting to devour each other's faces. Today's on-screen kisses do
NOT reflect affection nor respect, they scream sex. This is one
good reason to discuss this topic and to teach our youth the appropriateness or
not of physical expressions like kissing. If we don't teach them, we let the
world teach them. Dalep2u, LDS temple divorce rates are nowhere
near the rates of the general population! The last figure I read was 7 percent,
while the national divorce rate is currently at 44 percent. I think
I would prefer for my children to go the temple marriage route; you?
I know at least one couple who didn't share a kiss until they were married.
At BYUH2010:You have got to be kidding. You recommend not kissing
until you are almost engaged? LOL.The real moral guideline is to NOT
get carried away. THAT'S it! If you are someone who can't control themselves
after one kiss then don't kiss and tell your date why! Otherwise he will be
walking away and thinking you are a cold person.There is nothing
morally wrong with kissing, holding hands, or being attracted to another person.
Just keep the heavy breathing to a minimum until you are married. After that, go
Are the vice and virtue police next?
byuh2010, don't you think there is a respectable medium between making out with
someone you met the night before and waiting until you're almost engaged to kiss
someone?And why should we be worried about little kids witnessing
kissing? I'm not talking about making out in front of anybody. I'm talking about
people tastefuly showing affection for those they love. Kids need more exposure
to that, not less. If they never see it, they'll just think it's bad. And it's
not bad. It's wonderful. If they go into marriage thinking that kissing is bad,
they're going to have problems. There is a difference between treating something
as sacred and teating it as shameful, and I think LDS people in general need to
do a much better job of distinguishing between the two.
Ted H.You might do well to look things up before going off on someone and
exposing you own ignorance. "Moslem" is actually a correct, acceptable
and older spelling of Muslim. Anyway in your attempt to call Another Perspective
dumb you forgot to address his/her comment in any meaningful way. I'd love to
hear anything on topic if you have it though.
Dalep2u, I think you're on to something here. The problem is that
many members of the LDS Church don't make a distinction between LDS values and
the rules they make for themselves to make sure they are holding on to them.
Chastity is an LDS value, for which I feel we LDS people should make no apology.
On the other hand, lying next to someone of the opposite sex is not inherently
unchaste. I understand how it could lead to unchastity and under certain
situations it would be wise to avoid, but in and of itself, it is not, and can
actually be quite innocent. If we associate something as innocent as lying down
on the grass next to someone of the opposite sex when nothing else is going on
as unchastity, we start feeling guilty for sins we haven't even committed, and
we develop unhealthy inhibitions that are carried on into marriage. Instead of
making up all of these silly rules like no lying down, no being in your
girlfriend's bedroom, etc., we should probably just say "be chaste and use
good judgment" and leave it at that.
I'm still not sure how Mormon stuff like this gets put in a public newspaper.
Of course, the last time I dared to make a comment like this on deseretnews.com
(last week), I was censored and failed to make the cut, so have at it, DN review
seriously? you all have a problem with a guy and girl kissing?here's how I see your problem with kissing. and it is like your view on
marijuana. You think kissing is a "gateway" to sex. I don't think
you have a problem with kissing per se. I think you have a problem with what it
might lead to and therefore the safe path is to not do it.but it is
a fallacy, just as your belief that marijuana leads to harder drugs. Both are
individual actions that don't lead to anything that the person doesn't already
want to do. If you want a gateway to sex it would be victoria secret catalogs
and for drugs it is definitely alcohol. I just don't see how you can
have a problem with two people kissing. thats a very natural thing, and all it
means is I like you. It doesn't mean I want to marry you.I have no
clue where byuh2010 got the idea that kissing should be saved for THE ONE.
That's beyond conservative... (but I agree it shouldn't just be a random
What I don't understand is with all these LDS values...why is it that the Mormon
divorce rate is simular to everybody else?Could it be that while the
intent is good...the advise has it's own set of issues that ultimately tear down
Ok, Bottom line is, kissing should be saved for THE ONE. To be frank I think
the best idea is to at least wait to kiss someone until you are almost engaged
to someone. There should NEVER be a time where you start making out with someone
you met the night before!! One of the lessons I have had in Young Womens was if
you saw a guy on the street and just gave him your credit card...well that would
be stupid...the same when you start making out, your just allowing random people
to be all over you...kissing should be kept to a minimum unless your engaged!!
Less kissing please!! Save little kids from being subjected to it!
You actually write well compared to some of the other "Mormon" blogers
on the Deseret News. You also lack the self-centered, I'm so spiritual and
perfect attitude of the others. There is substance and value to this article
and is definitly not superficial.
Of course we want our youth (and adults) to make good choices. But kissing
someone you are attracted to will naturally produce feelings of desire and
attraction. It doesn't mean you have to act on those desires beyond kissing but
for goodness sake kissing during courtship can and should be fun. And
occassionally beyond three-second time intervals.I appreciate the
author's perspective. But wonder if she is enjoying her own dating experience or
if she is so worried about "laying down", "kissing like it were
your parents" or checking her stopwatch to be sure it is within the
institute teacher's recommended time frame that dating is more a burden than an
I have to agree with 'Another Perspective'. If I keep my lusty and dirty desires
wrapped up they will come exploding out of me later in the form of Googling
pornographic phrases. Also, and this is slightly off topic and
directed at Another Perspective, I did accidentally search for porn. Totally my
bad. So, Another Perspective, wherever you found your statistics for
pornographic internet searches by geographical location, could you subtract one
from Utah? Thanks.
Utah is the state with the most porn searches. The middle east Moslem countries
are the countries with the most porn searches. This is no accident.Keep a person hungry through guilt or through police who enforce prevention of
vice and promotion of virtue, the hunger grows greater and greater.
Julia-live a little. The Mormon obsession with depriving oneself of anything
that can derive an ounce of enjoyment is bad enough without insisting that
completely harmless kisses are sinful. If we handed out kisses like pretzels
we'd probably all be happier and skinnier.
You might look into "Is Kissing Sinful" by Grant Von Harrison. I think
he describes this topic well. Basically, sensual, lustful feelings are meant for
your spouse, so when kissing (or anything else) crosses that line, then it's
time to stop!
Julia, Thank you for a well written article with many good points in it. I
copied it off to share with my daughter.
Similar comments could be made for holding hands, dancing and even long private
conversations.In each society, indeed during the evolution of a
society, certain symbols develop which are meant to signify love. A century ago
it could have been the gift of a rose, or throwing down one's cloak over a
puddle. When I was a boy intense discussions arose over when it was appropriate
to hold a girl's hand (on the first date? NEVER!) At one point in time a woman
dropping her handkerchief in the presence of a man was provocative - even
downright risque! Kissing could be either symbolic or lustful. So
can dancing, or long conversations and so forth. So can almost any other action
or expression.I fear that many of the so-called expressions of love
of today are so much more dangerous, that I would settle with even passionate
kissing as an alternative.