Pairing Off: Counsel for Latter-day Saint singles on kissing

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  • Lasvegaspam Henderson, NV
    April 19, 2011 11:04 p.m.

    Charlie, Based on your theory there should be MORE LDS divorces, but instead, as I stated earlier, for Latter-day Saints who are attempting to live as the Lord has instructed (and by this I mean who strive for and achieve a temple marriage), they experience LESS divorces, FAR, FAR less than the general population experiences (7% versus 44%).

    This tells me that something about our approach is.dare I say it. working.

    Not only that, Charlie, but statistics prove that couples who have cohabitated have greater failure rates in their future marriage than those who have not lived together prior to marriage -- again, proving your theory wrong.

    BTW, we are not told no kissing until marriage; we're instructed to be wise and to be aware. Both good things, eh?

  • charlie91342 Sylmar, CA
    April 18, 2011 2:36 p.m.

    The problem is so obvious I can't believe you al don't see it.

    You say NO KISSING (Rock, byuh2010, etc) and obviously nothing else until marriage. Then at conference your leaders tell your youth to marry young (per Idaho Cougar). And then you wonder why the mariages don't last? If you haven't even kissed your spouse-to-be, and certainly haven't gotten intimate at all, then how would you know if you are physically compatible?

    I'm not saying sleep together but at least make sure you are physically compatible before you agree to spend the rest of your life together. And instead you all say you're not even supposed to kiss? WOW

    your rules make marriage very risky.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 18, 2011 11:42 a.m.

    One last followup comment for those who are still with us.

    If you are not kissing and snuggling and touching... maybe that is why you are single.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    April 17, 2011 11:39 p.m.

    Anyway as for the kissing thing... I'd recommend eskimo kisses.

  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    April 17, 2011 4:51 p.m.

    If I may add to what I M LDS 2 says up there, think about hunger. It's very tangible and very real and just "fighting it and endur[ing]" (to paraphrase the Rock) would lead to starvation, but does that mean I get to gorge myself on all the junk food I want? No, I eat a sensible diet within reason and I remain healthy and satisfied. Why can't sexuality be the same way?

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 16, 2011 4:00 p.m.

    Rock,

    I am arguing with the Lord?

    Not at all.

    I have not seen "the Lord" post a comment on Deseret News for over a year!

    And I challenge you to show me anywhere in the scriptures (the word of the Lord) that says a "good makeout session" is sinful.

    As for your waterslide analogy, I hope you realize the difference between swimming and expressing affection. If you don't, you have worse problems than just kissing.

    For the rest of us, we have this thing called "self control". It has served us very well. We can express affection without "going all the way". We can get angry without committing murder. We can disagree with someone without hating them. We have the ability to distinguish things that are harmless from things that cause harm.

    I am sorry to hear you lack this ability. Since that is the case for you, I recommend you look into Burkas for all your associates, and refrain from touching of any kind whatsoever.

    But as for me and my house, we will enjoy the blessings of human contact and affection.

  • Rock Calgary, Alberta
    April 15, 2011 5:42 p.m.

    You're right "Idaho Coug", it's doubley hard on people who find themselves single again, for whatever reason, after a marriage. They have had the "candy" and now are to abstain until its (sex, not kissing) legal again. I speak from experience there and there are no shortcuts, we simply must fight it and endure. Often we slip up and must determine to try try again. I guess thats why I commented on the "make out" crack from LDS2. We all know that kissing is a beautiful thing and is an intimate communication, but, again, too much of a good thing can..........

  • Idaho Coug Meridian, Idaho
    April 15, 2011 1:21 p.m.

    Rock - I like your waterslide analogy. But I feel for our singles who are in their late 20s on up and still have not married or who find themselves single again after divorcing or losing a spouse. Telling everyone to stay morally clean and keep your kisses under three seconds is (relatively) easy for those of us who are in a happy, healthy marriage. But I imagine that those who spend literally years wading in the kiddie pool find avoiding the water slide more and more difficult as the years pass. I'm 44 and I can only imagine how hard it would be to avoid the waterslide if I had never married or otherwise been single again for an extended period of time. I understand from Bishops that immorality is fairly high among the newly single after divorce segment of the church.

    Commandments are the same for all but we each have some that are more difficult. Similarly for our homosexual members. At least straight members have the option of intimacy through marriage.

  • Rock Calgary, Alberta
    April 15, 2011 12:50 p.m.

    I'm LDS 2...I'm surprised at your comment. Every person on earth with even a few hormones can tell you that a "good make out session" is like a run down a waterslide, once you get going it is next to impossible to stop. Moving on to the next step becomes far far too easy, then the next step. Your comments tell me you've been there so don't even bother trying to deny it. We have been councelled by the Lord to avoid going near this "waterslide" of temptation and you are not arguing with me, I don't care much what you think, you are arguing with the Lord about His councel.

    And Dennis, well, Duh, living together after marriage is difficult. No argument about that.

  • Idaho Coug Meridian, Idaho
    April 15, 2011 9:56 a.m.

    LDS Revelations is right. The rate of civil divorce in the church is right around the national average. I know a busy LDS divorce attorney in Orem who claims that, from his many years of experience, the majority of LDS divorces occur within the first few years of marriage while long-term temple marriages see a much lower rate of divorce.

    I personally think the historic push to marry young and fast adds to this and we saw that encouragement renewed again during conference.

    I would expect that the rate of temple sealing cancellations will drop even further because my understanding is that the church is moving toward approving these only in extreme situations. There has been a lot of confusion in the church around temple sealing cancellations. Men could be sealed to multiple wives in the case of death or divorce while women could only be sealed to one person at a time. This policy naturally caused a lot of confusion and we lost many members over it's unstated implications. I think the church is really moving toward a sense of "it will all be worked out in the next life" attitude.

  • terra nova Park City, UT
    April 15, 2011 9:42 a.m.

    I never once kissed MY WIFE before we were married. Of course, she wasn't my wife back then...

  • An Enemy of the People American Fork, UT
    April 15, 2011 9:35 a.m.

    @Ted H.

    It can be spelled as either Moslem or Muslim. In arabic to english translations the spelling doesn't matter so much as the pronunciation. Hence the different spellings of Koran vs. Qur'ran, Muhammed vs. Mohammed, etc.

    I wouldn't be so quick to knock others when you didn't exactly know what you were talking about either.

  • LDS Revelations Sandy, UT
    April 15, 2011 9:19 a.m.

    @Lasvegaspam

    The 6-7% rate you speak of is for temple divorces or the canceling of sealings. Since most divorces in the Church are civil and do not include cancellation of sealing this number is inaccurate or at least misleading. The statistics I've seen place US LDS divorce rate right about the same level as the rest of the nation.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    April 15, 2011 8:38 a.m.

    What people do with their mouths and their tongues is nobody's business but the other person they are sharing them with.

    All this talk is like a bunch of Pharisees debating the finer points of self-righteousness, and inventing new ways to judge and condemn others. It is sickening.

    There is nothing wrong with a good make-out session. There is nothing so natural as kissing, whether it be the kind invented by the Irish, or the Tahitians, or the French... all good. Now the eskimo thing I never got much out of, but the others are great. Ever tried the Scandinavian method? That is intense!

  • Dennis Harwich, MA
    April 15, 2011 7:47 a.m.

    The divorce rate is over 50%.
    Kissing never caused a divorce.
    It's the living together after being married that causes the difficulty.

  • LDS Revelations Sandy, UT
    April 15, 2011 7:11 a.m.

    @Lasvegaspam

    The 6-7% rate you speak of is for temple divorces or the canceling of sealings. Since most divorces in the Church are civil and do not include cancellation of sealing this number is inaccurate or at least misleading. The statistics I've seen place US LDS divorce rate right about the same level as the rest of the nation.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.

  • Rock Calgary, Alberta
    April 15, 2011 5:54 a.m.

    To "Another perspective"...Your stats need verification. I don't believe them
    To "Reality Check" and Many others....Get real. Kissing IS the first step to many things beyond appropriate for a people who are trying to maintain a sense of cleanliness.
    As in everything, too much of a good thing can be dangerous. Obviously, this means nothing to those of you who don't have a belief in virtue and the like, and you will try hard to belittle everyone else and behave like the crowds in the "great and spacious building". (look it up)
    Rules number one and two should be.... keep your kisses short and sweet and keep your mouth shut.

  • Lasvegaspam Henderson, NV
    April 15, 2011 12:39 a.m.

    Have ya noticed the difference between on-screen kisses of today versus yesteryear?? A child watching today's "kisses" might just think the couple are attempting to devour each other's faces. Today's on-screen kisses do NOT reflect affection nor respect, they scream sex.

    This is one good reason to discuss this topic and to teach our youth the appropriateness or not of physical expressions like kissing. If we don't teach them, we let the world teach them.

    Dalep2u, LDS temple divorce rates are nowhere near the rates of the general population! The last figure I read was 7 percent, while the national divorce rate is currently at 44 percent.

    I think I would prefer for my children to go the temple marriage route; you?

  • Some1outthere Salt Lake City, UT
    April 14, 2011 9:17 p.m.

    I know at least one couple who didn't share a kiss until they were married.

  • The Rabbit (in Spanish) Salt Lake City, UT
    April 14, 2011 5:47 p.m.

    At BYUH2010:

    You have got to be kidding. You recommend not kissing until you are almost engaged? LOL.

    The real moral guideline is to NOT get carried away. THAT'S it! If you are someone who can't control themselves after one kiss then don't kiss and tell your date why! Otherwise he will be walking away and thinking you are a cold person.

    There is nothing morally wrong with kissing, holding hands, or being attracted to another person. Just keep the heavy breathing to a minimum until you are married. After that, go to town!

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    April 14, 2011 5:31 p.m.

    Are the vice and virtue police next?

  • Independent Henderson, NV
    April 14, 2011 5:27 p.m.

    byuh2010, don't you think there is a respectable medium between making out with someone you met the night before and waiting until you're almost engaged to kiss someone?

    And why should we be worried about little kids witnessing kissing? I'm not talking about making out in front of anybody. I'm talking about people tastefuly showing affection for those they love. Kids need more exposure to that, not less. If they never see it, they'll just think it's bad. And it's not bad. It's wonderful. If they go into marriage thinking that kissing is bad, they're going to have problems. There is a difference between treating something as sacred and teating it as shameful, and I think LDS people in general need to do a much better job of distinguishing between the two.

  • LDS Revelations Sandy, UT
    April 14, 2011 5:24 p.m.

    Ted H.
    You might do well to look things up before going off on someone and exposing you own ignorance. "Moslem" is actually a correct, acceptable and older spelling of Muslim. Anyway in your attempt to call Another Perspective dumb you forgot to address his/her comment in any meaningful way. I'd love to hear anything on topic if you have it though.

  • Independent Henderson, NV
    April 14, 2011 5:16 p.m.

    Dalep2u, I think you're on to something here.

    The problem is that many members of the LDS Church don't make a distinction between LDS values and the rules they make for themselves to make sure they are holding on to them. Chastity is an LDS value, for which I feel we LDS people should make no apology. On the other hand, lying next to someone of the opposite sex is not inherently unchaste. I understand how it could lead to unchastity and under certain situations it would be wise to avoid, but in and of itself, it is not, and can actually be quite innocent. If we associate something as innocent as lying down on the grass next to someone of the opposite sex when nothing else is going on as unchastity, we start feeling guilty for sins we haven't even committed, and we develop unhealthy inhibitions that are carried on into marriage. Instead of making up all of these silly rules like no lying down, no being in your girlfriend's bedroom, etc., we should probably just say "be chaste and use good judgment" and leave it at that.

  • BirdmanKen Fishers, IN
    April 14, 2011 5:02 p.m.

    I'm still not sure how Mormon stuff like this gets put in a public newspaper. Of course, the last time I dared to make a comment like this on deseretnews.com (last week), I was censored and failed to make the cut, so have at it, DN review board.

  • realitycheck247 Sylmar, CA
    April 14, 2011 4:58 p.m.

    seriously? you all have a problem with a guy and girl kissing?

    here's how I see your problem with kissing. and it is like your view on marijuana. You think kissing is a "gateway" to sex. I don't think you have a problem with kissing per se. I think you have a problem with what it might lead to and therefore the safe path is to not do it.

    but it is a fallacy, just as your belief that marijuana leads to harder drugs. Both are individual actions that don't lead to anything that the person doesn't already want to do. If you want a gateway to sex it would be victoria secret catalogs and for drugs it is definitely alcohol.

    I just don't see how you can have a problem with two people kissing. thats a very natural thing, and all it means is I like you. It doesn't mean I want to marry you.

    I have no clue where byuh2010 got the idea that kissing should be saved for THE ONE. That's beyond conservative... (but I agree it shouldn't just be a random person).

  • dalep2u Herriman, UT
    April 14, 2011 4:57 p.m.

    What I don't understand is with all these LDS values...why is it that the Mormon divorce rate is simular to everybody else?

    Could it be that while the intent is good...the advise has it's own set of issues that ultimately tear down relationships?

  • byuh2010 Meridian, CA
    April 14, 2011 4:32 p.m.

    Ok, Bottom line is, kissing should be saved for THE ONE. To be frank I think the best idea is to at least wait to kiss someone until you are almost engaged to someone. There should NEVER be a time where you start making out with someone you met the night before!! One of the lessons I have had in Young Womens was if you saw a guy on the street and just gave him your credit card...well that would be stupid...the same when you start making out, your just allowing random people to be all over you...kissing should be kept to a minimum unless your engaged!! Less kissing please!! Save little kids from being subjected to it!

  • JZ42 Salt Lake City, Utah
    April 14, 2011 3:07 p.m.

    You actually write well compared to some of the other "Mormon" blogers on the Deseret News. You also lack the self-centered, I'm so spiritual and perfect attitude of the others. There is substance and value to this article and is definitly not superficial.

  • Idaho Coug Meridian, Idaho
    April 14, 2011 1:41 p.m.

    Of course we want our youth (and adults) to make good choices. But kissing someone you are attracted to will naturally produce feelings of desire and attraction. It doesn't mean you have to act on those desires beyond kissing but for goodness sake kissing during courtship can and should be fun. And occassionally beyond three-second time intervals.

    I appreciate the author's perspective. But wonder if she is enjoying her own dating experience or if she is so worried about "laying down", "kissing like it were your parents" or checking her stopwatch to be sure it is within the institute teacher's recommended time frame that dating is more a burden than an enjoyable experience?

  • Richard McKinley Salt Lake City, UT
    April 14, 2011 12:14 p.m.

    I have to agree with 'Another Perspective'. If I keep my lusty and dirty desires wrapped up they will come exploding out of me later in the form of Googling pornographic phrases.

    Also, and this is slightly off topic and directed at Another Perspective, I did accidentally search for porn. Totally my bad. So, Another Perspective, wherever you found your statistics for pornographic internet searches by geographical location, could you subtract one from Utah? Thanks.

  • Another Perspective Bountiful, UT
    April 14, 2011 11:11 a.m.

    Utah is the state with the most porn searches. The middle east Moslem countries are the countries with the most porn searches. This is no accident.

    Keep a person hungry through guilt or through police who enforce prevention of vice and promotion of virtue, the hunger grows greater and greater.

  • VocalLocal Bountiful, UT
    April 14, 2011 10:56 a.m.

    Julia-live a little. The Mormon obsession with depriving oneself of anything that can derive an ounce of enjoyment is bad enough without insisting that completely harmless kisses are sinful. If we handed out kisses like pretzels we'd probably all be happier and skinnier.

  • livestrong Springville, UT
    April 14, 2011 9:12 a.m.

    You might look into "Is Kissing Sinful" by Grant Von Harrison. I think he describes this topic well. Basically, sensual, lustful feelings are meant for your spouse, so when kissing (or anything else) crosses that line, then it's time to stop!

  • Utexmom Flower Mound, TX
    April 14, 2011 8:47 a.m.

    Julia, Thank you for a well written article with many good points in it. I copied it off to share with my daughter.

  • Walt Nicholes Orem, UT
    April 14, 2011 8:39 a.m.

    Similar comments could be made for holding hands, dancing and even long private conversations.

    In each society, indeed during the evolution of a society, certain symbols develop which are meant to signify love. A century ago it could have been the gift of a rose, or throwing down one's cloak over a puddle. When I was a boy intense discussions arose over when it was appropriate to hold a girl's hand (on the first date? NEVER!) At one point in time a woman dropping her handkerchief in the presence of a man was provocative - even downright risque!

    Kissing could be either symbolic or lustful. So can dancing, or long conversations and so forth. So can almost any other action or expression.

    I fear that many of the so-called expressions of love of today are so much more dangerous, that I would settle with even passionate kissing as an alternative.