Choose faith over doubt

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  • brokenclay Scottsdale, AZ
    April 4, 2011 9:10 a.m.

    I'm going to side with donn on the debate. The problem here is that in some ways we are talking past each other, because Mormons don't believe in forensic justification as taught especially in Romans. Mormons will often throw out James as teaching a works salvation (he doesn't, properly understood), but then they don't bother to reconcile Paul's teachings to James'. donn has done this (see Luther's quote above). Ephesians 2:8-9 is the clearest statement you will find in the Bible of the relationship between faith and good works:

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

    According to the verse, faith and works are antithetical. Paul himself says faith is not a good work. These works are also not limited to Mosaic Law-- they are any good work. I would also point out that 2 Nephi 25:23 is in direct contradiction with these verses, yet the allusion is clear. The only solution is to reject the authority and authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

  • Y Ask Y Provo, UT
    April 3, 2011 3:15 p.m.

    Is that the sound of a Swiss Clock in the background?

    Yes, I think it is!

  • Pentacone Batley, W.Yorkshire
    April 3, 2011 3:28 a.m.

    OK, This is my Last Allowable Comment!

    I am feeling that Donn is calling me Something-akin-to a D.E.M.O.N. (Not Of Mans Eternal Destiny)!

    So, through my Priesthood, I have just held a Conversation (Telepathically), and Expressed myself to Donn, whilst he is Sleeping!

    Unfortunately, Donn has Commented 4 Times now, and can therefore not Respond again! But, we have a See-Saw here:- Donn on the One Side, and me on the Other!

    Deseret News has VERY Kindly Printed Both Sides, so that ALL Brethren reading, can Study and Choose their Own Views.

    There are INDEED Many Demons with us on this Planet, and they are Just as Confused as ANY Human Being! BUT, I have found that with just a little Communication with them, I can convert them to Not Of Carbon, Although an Eternal Deity (D.E.A.C.O.N.)!

    Have Fun Exercising YOUR F.A.I.T.H. (Highest Thoughts In All Future)!

    With Kindness as Ever,
    Joseph Peter Sheehan.

    PS:- P.R.I.E.S.T. (The Spirit Eternal In Royal Person)!

  • donn layton, Ut
    April 2, 2011 5:24 p.m.

    Northern Lights: That's what I believe James stated "faith without works is dead." (James 2:20). Martin Luther explains, A man is justified(declared righteous before God)by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone . Genuine faith will produce good works. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law(Romans 3:28).

    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word(the gospel)of God(Romans 10:17 KJV)
    unless a man be born again (anothen=from above)he cannot enter into the kingdom of God(John 3:3 Greek N.T.)

    Pentacone: Saving faith is only as good as the object(Biblical Jesus)of that faith or trust[not an exalted man]. Even the demons believe that there is One God(not gods)and shudder(James 2:19)

  • Pentacone Batley, W.Yorkshire
    April 2, 2011 3:31 a.m.

    Dear All,

    I am Very Impressed with ALL this Conversation.

    I just need to say further, though:-
    There are Many Meanings to the word FAITH

    From; Faith that GOD The Father, Jesus and The HOLY GHOST Exists,

    To; I have Faith in my Own Abilities, to Achieve the Task I am about to Embark upon (i.e. Stripping, and Repairing, the Engine of a Motor Vehicle, for instance)!

    With Ever-More Love,
    Joseph Peter Sheehan.

  • Serenity Manti, UT
    April 2, 2011 12:20 a.m.

    I am not a theologian, but I do know this. If we don't have faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, take His holy name upon us, be baptized and accept His atoning sacrifice, we cannot be saved. Mormons do not now, or ever have believed that they can save themselves. Without the Savior's Atonement we cannot approach salvation. No one can.

    Faith in God the Eternal Father and His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, is the first Article of Faith of the LDS religion.

    Faith is an action word. We believe that through the atonement we are saved but through faith we must also obey the laws and ordinances of the Lord's Gospel.

    James says that faith without works is dead. Also that through faith we have works and through works, faith is made perfect. (Read James, the King James Version)

    To me, it is clear that we must obey the commandments of God (works) in order to attain salvation. Through these works, i.e. obedience to the commandments, our faith is made perfect and our Savior will lead us to sanctification and eventually, eternal salvation

  • Northern Lights Louisville, KY
    April 1, 2011 8:40 p.m.


    Romans chapter 5 seems to support the idea that a person must take action for the grace of God to actually apply in their life. Paul wrote, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:1-2) This verse tells me that one can only access grace through faith, or by exercising faith, in God. The LDS believe that faith is one of the first principles of the gospel. Faith is an action word, it is not a passive state. It is one of the good works an individual can perform. That's why I believe James stated "faith without works is dead." (James 2:20)

    Romans 5 is accepted as doctrine by Mormons. And as you pointed out in Romans 3, all need to access grace through faith because all have sinned. But, God will not force faith onto anyone in order to access His grace. It is an individual choice to do so.

  • donn layton, Ut
    April 1, 2011 5:13 p.m.

    Northern lights, For we know that is by grace that we are saved after all we can do(2 Nephi 25:23) very similar to, God helps those who help themselves!" Hezekiah 6:1, Which these "verses" are unbiblical in their meaning. The exact opposite of the message of scripture.

    For it is by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; It is the gift of God; not by works,so no one can boast, For we are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus which God prepared in advance for us to do.(Eph 2: 8-10). Mormonism reverses sanctification(holiness)with soteriology(saved).
    However to the man who does not work but trust God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Roman 5:4)

    Pentecone,I prefer using the Biblical Greek word for sin(hamartia )= to miss the mark, to err, be mistaken, to wander from the law of God, violate God's law. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23 KJV)

  • Pentacone Batley, W.Yorkshire
    April 1, 2011 4:16 p.m.

    Dear Donn,

    Thank you for your Response, but I am a little confused.

    You seem to be using the Word Faith, as some Ethereal Element, rather than a Day to Day Necessity (Act in Faith, that you will Succeed in your Deliberations)!

    GOD Saves Sinners?

    The Word S.I.N. stands for:- Not In Spirit (Backwards) i.e. We are acting in the Carnal Flesh State.

    And, GOD, Himself, cannot SAVE us further! We have to Save ourselves now, by Exercising our Wisdom and Knowledge, at every opportunity, to Increase more and more, and thus become GOD-Like!

    After-all, when we Pass-Away, we will find ourselves with the Exact Abilities After Death, as we have Before Death! (D.E.A.D. Deceased And Eternally Damned).

    With All Love and Kindness,
    Joseph Peter Sheehan.

  • Northern Lights Louisville, KY
    April 1, 2011 2:29 p.m.

    donn -

    I have to respectfully disagree with your characterization of Mormonism. It is Mormon doctrine to believe that "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23) This is no simple exercise of faith - this is instead a lifelong commitment to God.

    Mormons invite the world: "Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God." (Moroni 10:32)

    Yes, God saves sinners through his grace - but sinners also have to want to be saved. God will not force Himself on anyone.

  • donn layton, Ut
    April 1, 2011 1:23 p.m.

    Re: Pentacone,Saving Faith is a gift from God and is a genuine response to God from a regenerate heart(new birth). Regeneration precedes faith and repentance. God saves sinners.

    Mormonism: Men and women can save themselves by the simple exercise of faith, self-righteousness.
    This is what separates Christianity from other religions, faith starts from inside and works on the outside, not faith on the outside that works inside. He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy He saved through the washing of rebirth by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Christ Jesus our Savior. (Titus 3:5 NIV) Or, It does not depend on mans desire or effort but on Gods mercy. (Romans 9:5 NIV)

  • Pentacone Batley, W.Yorkshire
    April 1, 2011 10:21 a.m.

    Dear Teri,

    Faith over Doubt?

    Our Faith is basically that, GOD Spoke to us through Joseph Jnr., and is still listening to our thoughts NOW, (Through His Beloved Son, Jesus).

    To Test it Daily, we should look towards Coincidences.

    We should Confidently make Decisions, Moment by Moment, (Based on our Current Knowledge, and using our Current Wisdom), and Doors WILL Open! (Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept).

    Each Coincidence will Confirm, or Negate, the Original Decision, and thus Clarify our Knowledge, and Strengthen our Wisdom!

    Almost all Daily Decisions involve other People, therefore, as a Simple Rule, Treat Others as you would wish them to Treat you! (Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself).

    And, even though you may not have heard these sayings, in such simplicity, in our Scriptures, I assure you that it is by such a simple manner, that our Great Prophets, became Great!!

    With Kindest Regards,
    Joseph Peter Sheehan.