As a Non-Mormon from Utah I am offended by the behavior of the students, some
posters here, and admin from SDSU. I have yet to meet a Mormon I did not like.
Though I do not share their exact values specifically the Book of Mormon this
religion has suffered the most in the States of all the religions, if you dont
believe me take a look at their history. Mormon's are good people that raise
their children in a way all religions should be proud to do. For every boy on
that team they are someone's son, brother, uncle, etc... I am sure that other
schools that are faith based would not appreciate this treatment, nor would it
be allowed. The U of U and BYU have one heck of a hated rivalry am I am sure
that U of U fans would not act in this behavior. SDSU who are they? If I was BYU
I would boycott playing this team on their home court, because in the end this
young men have better things to do then submit their students to bigotry and
vulgarity. Sad state of affairs in SDSU Country.
I wasn't at the game, so I can only go by what I read in the article. A few
points ...1) I think the outfits (bike helmets, white shirts) are
hilarious. Even a bit flattering that these kids would know us well enough to
imitate like this.2) I didn't hear the taunts, but "you're still
Mormon" - while not offensive to me, would never fly if the chants were "you're
still Jewish, or you're still Muslim."3) I think we as LDS have to
be careful to not over-react to every little offense. If we blow up over some
good-natured ribbing, we won't get much help when real persecution occurs.4) What's more worrisome to me are the non-stop lies fostered by the
bitter, mostly ex-Mo's, who just can't leave the church alone. They're entitled
to their opinion, but that's all it is - an opinion built on bitterness and the
same old lies over and over again.If you don't like the Mormon
standards or doctrine, that's certainly your right. But don't equate that with
the right to deny others their beliefs.
Bigotry is wrong and has the same devastating effect no matter who it's
against.The students at SDSU were terribly wrong to display such
religous bigotry. The Prop. 8 movement was another form of bigotry targeted
toward a specific group, which also isn't right.With my deep LDS
roots, I don't want to see my people continue to face high levels of bigotry.
It's hurtful. At the same time, if we want others to accept us, we have to show
the same level of acceptance. Our involvement in Prop. 8 movement only gave
others another reason to dislike us, unfortuntately.
"Religion = race? Heck no. You don't pick your race, gender, or sexual
orientation but you sure as heck pick your religion. Massive difference."Jews pick there religion so its OK to be anti-semitic?
The Lord teaches us to not hit back (or in this case insult back) but turn the
other cheek. So with love toward you a majortiy of voters in every state of the
union that has tried to pass same sex unions, have voted such unions down. Most
aren't Mormon. Our members in California went out with courage to defend
Prop 8 and MANY were persecuted and continue to be. My husband lost a job
opportunity in CA. because he was from Utah. He was asked point blank before a
hello was even given "Are you a Mormon?". The interviewer clearly broke the
law.He was the only interviewer to show such open hostility. Don't
be so naive to think Mormons are not persecuted for their beliefs. The mass
media is happy to show homosexual persecution by "Christians" but not vice
versa. Early LDS converts were raped, tortured, and entire communities
destroyed with fire and pillaging.We DO NOT condone such disgusting acts
upon our homosexual brothers and sisters. Only people with no understanding of
the gospel of Jesus Christ encourage such Godless behavior. May we all be
blessed, though we disagree, with greater love for all.
I trust that you are smart enough to realize just how stupid your comment was.
Please refer to the post regarding the "Blame the Victim Phenomenon."You have just said that it's OK to villify anyone because, as you said, "Where
there's smoke there's fire." That means that if I harrass someone then I must
have a sound reason for doing so and that the object of my hassassment is
certainly deserving of said vile treatment.I hope you have buried
your head in shame.To Bill Weatherspoon: Good comments. I agree
with you completely.
It is an interesting issue. Why is it okay to make fun of certain
religions/ethnicities but not others? Mormons, for example, are frequent
targets on sitcoms, talk shows, sporting events, etc., and it's really no big
deal. Same with the Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, whites, asians, etc. Yet if
the same thing said about one of these groups is said about Jews, Muslims,
Blacks, etc., everyone is up in arms. It's a fascinating double standard.
Unless you're in one of the unprotected groups.
I'm from Utah but wasn't raised LDS. I've lived in several different states
since and have seen how Mormons are treated outside Utah. It
always bothers me how people have no problem bashing Mormons and don't even
realize it's religous bigotry. In fact, it's still "PC" to bash Mormons.I think people will continue to feel they have free license to bash
until the LDS Church or somebody starts doing a better job of fighting back.
When there is an incident like at SDSU, somebody needs to identify it as bigotry
and condemn it.
Oh, boo-hoo. "You're still Mormon," is NOT a comment to get all worked up about
- unless you're ashamed of being Mormon.Get over it. They were
teasing the BYU fans, who, in my experience (dozens of games) are among the most
obnoxious and arrogant sports fans around. I've been threatened by BYU fans IN
MY OWN STADIUM, just for asking someone to get out of my seat. That's just the
tip of the iceberg, BYU supporters. Perhaps you should look in the
mirror and see how your own fans have instigated other team's fans before you
start criticizing SDSU fans.
Athletics brings out the worst in fans, be it little league, high school,
college, pro. We have all seen it on highlight reels and best of"s. The
general population is filled with morons. People with nothing better to do then
spew hate for opposing teams. Why? is this the only outlet pathetic people have
to express their emotions in a somewhat creative manner. Our their lives so
empty and unfulfilling that this actually makes them feel better? The answer
seems to be Yes! So here is the lesson learned the majority of the population
are idiots, and sadly we will have to sit next to them as spectators in every
sporting event we attend. And for the folks who condone this behavior? well
consider yourselves part of the majority!
that my comments got censored by the DN when you have others comparing SDSU fans
to Mexicans and others claiming the LDS church is more prejudiced towards gays
than Muslims.All I said was gays have it pretty good in Utah and the
rest of the 49 states considering one can be executed in some parts of the
Middle East for being gay. It's irresponsible and dangerous to allow
others to comment like that and not allow a counter-point.
"Where there is smoke, there is fire. If LDS are being taunted, there must be
reason why they deserve it!"Cool that explains why blacks and Jews
suffer discrimination - they deserve it Thanks for the progresive
Where there is smoke, there is fire.If LDS are being taunted, there
must be reason why they deserve it!
Who cares. Just consider the source.
Brad Rocks comments, I can't picture fans chanting, "You're still Muslim!" or
"You're still Jewish!"....because if the fans did, there would be lawsuits,
Waste of time folks.
who are offended by the SDSU students felt that Max Hall's hate-laden diatribe
two months ago was appropriate? There's a word for it - hypocrisy.Many of you LOVE to play the victim. Somehow, it feels noble, doesn't it.
But many of you refuse to recognize that you bring a lot of this on yourselves
with your "we're better, smarter, and more righteous than you" attitude.I'm a lifelong Mormon and a BYU graduate. Taken as a whole, I believe
that BYU's athletes are a cut above almost every other university's when it
comes to character. Their coaches are also outstanding in this regard. But I
find it difficult to cheer for the Cougars because of their fans.Those of you who think that this problem could be easily remedied by moving to
another conference, consider two things:1) You can't go to another
conference UNTIL YOU'RE INVITED.2) Some of you have said, "the
Oklahoma (or whoever) fans were so classy... If they had frequent exposure to
ya'll, they'd tire of your attitude pretty quickly.
I must be getting old, cause I really don't think that it is worth getting so up
tight about. I have a feeling that these fans would treat other teams in the
same classless way. I one time as a sister missionary dressed up to look like
and Elder, shame on me I guess. But BYU fans have to realize that the world
acts differently then we do in the church. That kind of language is usually
everyday language for these people. If their team came to BYU to play and you
started to sing hymns to them, they would feel offended. Sadly, since moving
away from Utah, I hear the Lords name taken in vain all the time. I would much
rather go to a game and hear all the cuss words in the world, then to hear that
sacred name used so casually.
HEE HEE HEE!!!!!
To Grandfather,Tell you what, since you are much closer to meeting
at the judgment bar of god, you ask and then come back and tell us!We will be waiting... but not holding our breath!
To Joe Blow... At the judgment bar of God, ask about the Hat
thing... you say it over and over and over in all your posts... you need to
think just a little more before you offend God... and his prophets. Don't
worry about us... that matters not.
Next time the SDSU football team gets blown out in Provo, a comparable reply
would be; You're still Mexican.
I bet said devout Mormon looks great in his missionary suit with his afro
flowing in the wind .. do you have any pictures ? I saw a group of
people in the liquor store on 7200 S dressed as "missionaries" for a party ..
there is nothing new about this stunt .. it's just high jinks. Now if they all
came with golden trumpets in an angel suit you might have a point.
Now, now stop all the bashing. Some of the bashing is not coming from
nonmembers, none actives nor ANTIS, it is coming straight forward from active
JM,You continue to bury your head in the sand, and in your denial,
and blind desire to convince yourself and others that "all is well in Zion", you
spread lies.I promise you, As a fellow-LDS, I witness the hateful,
judgmental, self-righteous, arrogant attitudes displayed on these comment boards
among my fellow LDS almost every single day at my job and Church on Sunday.Don't kid yourself. These sentiments are real, and nobody is being paid
to sit here fulltime and post such comments. In fact, for a tone of "hate" YOURS
is one of the top contenders!
This shows us what a pile of HOT AIR exist here.
Mormons like to equate ridicule of their religion to reiducle of Jews or
Muslims. How absurd! Mormons in America enjoy a privileged position and take
full advantage. They got away with being openly and officially racist until just
30 years ago. Can you imagine the Jewish or Muslim religions willingly taking
the lead in persecuting gays the way Mormons have in Utah, California, and
elsewhere? There are bigots in all conservative religions, but Mormons choose to
wear it on their sleeves. It is very difficult to feel sorry for them.
Some of these comments, seemingly by overzealous BYU fans, LDS, etc, are really
by Mormon haters posing, just to discourage and increase hate. They do this all
over the D-News, fulltime. The world is in need of love and encouragement, not
more hatred, but sadly, hating LDS is as PC as it always has been. You
are right, if done to any other people, Muslims, gays, Jews, Native Americans,
etc, there would be outrage, when done to LDS there is justification. Out of the many thousands of LDS I have met, and many many different Wards
I've attended, I've never heard any other Church or group disrespected. But, at all but one non-LDS Church I've attended (and they have been
many) and many other places, LDS are mocked, the sacred is trampled, the
wonderful people scorned.I guess every man has his
reasons… fortunately we have some peace at present.
I'm the one who should be offended by the chant. How dare the SDSU students
think all BYU fans are Mormon.
Brad Rock has obviously never spent time around BYU fans at LES, and how they
treat visitors, particularly Utah fans.
You had me up until your last point, "Clear Religious discrimination. No
excuse."Did you think about what that one post said, "It's not
because the BYU fans were LDS, it's because the LDS fans were from BYU"?There are plenty of LDS at other schools, are they heckled for being
LDS, or missionaries, or whatever? No. It's because BYU fan wraps him- or
herself in the religion so tightly that BYU fan is unable to differentiate
between the church and the university.I hate to break it to the
people in Provistan, but BYU does not have an exclusive title to LDS. Whether
you like it or not, the Cougars are not the "Official Team of the LDS Church" -
just that one University. Most of us can recognize that (although many in
Provistan are demonstrating an inability to grasp that concept right now). Let's make this perfectly clear - It's not because anyone hates your
religion. It's because we hate the behavior of BYU fan. And if BYU fan wants
to think it's because we hate them, fine. Feel free to play victim. We'll just
go back to ignoring you.
I keep reading to "keep religion out of it", however BYU does not even do this.
Your own coaches have said the recruit by using "the spirit", and that famouse
sound bite that was played on every sports radio station this year prior to the
Utah vs BYU football game when one of the BYU player said something to the
affect that we put it all the hard work and the lord does the rest. Are you
kidding me!! Please BYU lets keep the religion out of, practice what you preach,
Let's see here...I attend a SDSU-BYU game at Cougar Stadium and get
heckled all game AND have to watch my team get drubbed.Your fans
attend Viejas Arena, have to witness guys in (GASP!) white shirts and ties, and
chants of "You're still Mormon!" (pretty tame). Oh, and your team wins.And this rates an article in the Deseret News? What's the next article
down? "Kitten Stuck in Tree"??
No need to apologize for being American. You see, we all get to vote. Some voted
for Prop 8, some against Prop 8. I for one, will never apologize for
my support of Prop 8, because that would be equal to apologizing for being an
American with an opinion.Perhaps you might want to reconsider your
As soon as the Mormon church apologizes for its support of Prop 8 in California,
we'll apologize for teasing your team.
I love the numerous posts that assert that Mormons are maligned, harrassed, and
abused because they brought it on themselves. That's called the "Blame the
Victim Phenomenon." For example, a woman is wearing a short dress and is
showing cleavage. So an immoral man rapes her. Then people turn around and say
it was the woman's fault because of the way she dressed. Hmm, what about the
fact that the man assaulted and raped the woman?Or, we can get
Biblical and refer to the woman who was brought to Jesus to be stoned for having
committed adultery. She was caught "in the act." So, where was the man??? Why
didn't the mob throw him at the feet of Jesus also so that he could be
stoned?Mormons are not the only ones who need to get a thicker skin
and need to lose the "holier than thou" attitude.When it becomes as
unacceptable to engage in anti-Mormon behavior as it is to engage in
anti-Semitic or anti-race or anti-sexual preference behavior, then I think we
will be making progress. But the selective and unilateral rules of
not-so-liberal liberals is bogus.
It wasn't Bill Murray, It was Sgt. Hulka.He was addressing wacko
recruit Francis "Psycho" Sawyer.Mike in Sandy
My first line in my previous post should implied my agreement that the general
perception is that attacking Mormons is fair game while there would be a
backlash in belittling Jews or Baptists.I also think there is a
difference in "attacking" and discussing/questioning the theology or the tenants
of the faith.
I agree. BYU brings it on with their holier than thou approach, as exemplified
by this forum. And the MC uses BYU as a proselytizing arm.However,
that said, I think that doing such shannigans are tasteless and I would not like
to do it or see it or endorse it in any way shape or form.It does not
build us a better America.
I'm Non-LDS (SURPRISE) and agree that, unlike many other religions, attacking
Mormons is fair game. I also agree that it goes over the line many
times.Missionary attire = GreatBut much crosses the lineSo, lets look at why the LDS get picked on.Here is my list.
I believe that these are general public perceptions. I dont agree with them all
but...1) LDS religion is pretty unbelievable - JS put his head in a
hat with a rock and viola, the BOM2) You believe that all other
religions are wrong. People dont like to be told that or have that implied.
You dont like it either.3) You pester people. They have all had
missionaries come to their door and bother them.4) Of course the
Polygamy thing and to a lesser extent, the black thing. 5) Religion
is pretty weird. People getting their own planet to rule?6) you all
are so quick to say YOU KNOW. Normal People dont know and they dont think you
do either.Right or wrong, I think this list covers it pretty well.
Good luck fixing that.
I just wanted to say Thanks. Thanks for throwing in how no one heckles the
Cougars better than the Utah State and Utah fans. It really made me smile to see
a Wasatch Front writer realizing that there is another major university in the
state. Besides, we all know us Aggies are the most creative when it
comes to heckling at basketball games.
"I hope that you'll think about that a bit before saying that religious
discrimination is "exactly the same" as racial discrimination. There IS a
difference between the two."I agree that there are distinctions
between the two but that doesn't lessen the severity of the problem. Religion
is indeed chosen for most but it's not the same as choosing what box of cereal
you're going to buy. It's a serious decision that people make at their very
core and it shouldn't be ridiculed like that especially at an official school
event.And while it's true that not all students or athletes at BYU
are Mormon the vast majority are and are generally viewed as such. It's an easy
distinction to make. Just the same as being able to deduce that it's likely
that most marchers in a Gay Pride march are going to be gay. My point is you
probably couldn't tell a Mormon just by looking at one in a random crowd but
chances are that a crowd of BYU students is 99% LDS. Clear Religious
discrimination. No excuse.
Why am i being called a Bigot? I said "I" have encountered many members who give
the church a bad name. Many of those people are associated with byu. In no way
was a grouping the university as whole. If i said the majority of members of the
lds church make it look look bad they all come from byu i could see your point.
I'm just talking about people i've had experiences with.
BYU should get rid of the sporting programs...I'm LDS and don't like my religion
being associated with athletes from BYU.
I think all you thumb suckers need to head off to bed.
Hey, junior, it's really cute that you're using the keyboard now - but the
grown-ups are having a discussion here. And it's past your bedtime. Now get
off the computer like a good kid and go to bed.sim⋅ple
/ˈsɪmpəl/ (...)12. inconsequential or
rudimentary.13. unlearned; ignorant.14. lacking mental acuteness or
sense: a simple way of thinking.15. unsophisticated; naive; credulous.Simple, indeed!
Just ignore them. BYU and other Utah teams always get taunted for living in the
'mormon state'. We should not be the type of people that get offended over dumb
little things like many others do. Make fun all they want, I would like to seem
then endure a two year mission with the rules on a mission. It helps develop
boys into men.
send San Diego State to the WAC. They bring down the MWC anyways.
Religion = race? Heck no. You don't pick your race, gender, or sexual
orientation but you sure as heck pick your religion. Massive difference.
are you happy to get that off your chest? sheesh......anyway, to
really deal with this, you just dont take these fools seriously. To yell "youre
still mormon" isnt insulting, get a thicker skin!
...just to try to foster a bit of understanding, I'm going to try to 'splain
something.First off, I will agree that discrimination based on
gender, race, religion, sexual orientation (well, at least in my company) is
covered under the same section of the HR policy. BUT...A minority
is visually identifiable by the color of their skin, while most mormons,
catholics, what-have-you religions are not visually identifiable unless you are
wearing some label declaring yourself to be of that religion. I don't even
assume all BYU fans are LDS. Remember Jim McMahon? Catholic. Having said
that...Unless you are unable to conceal your religion you cannot
fully compare it to discrimination based on race. This is the same problem that
homosexuals have when comparing their plight to racism. You can hide a behavior
or belief, you can't easily hide the color of your skin.I hope that
you'll think about that a bit before saying that religious discrimination is
"exactly the same" as racial discrimination. There IS a difference between the
two. We now return you to your pointless bickering already in
They say that the opposite of Love is NOT Hatred, but, indifference.These people who have a very strong negative reaction are actually opening
themselves to a good "conversation" where ideas are actually shared.
The real hypocrites are those claiming the "holier than thou" card against BYU -
EVERY opportunity they get.Ute fans who claim to be LDS in one
breath, and then turn around and castigate BYU and the church on the other - for
being "holier than thou" no less, I ask, WHO ARE THE REAL HYPOCRITES????For the Utah LDS fan it is all about hating BYU because of sports. For
the Utah non-LDS fan, the majority hate BYU because of the church.
Yes, but fans dresssing up a certain way chanting a silly slogan doesn't =
bigotry. Fans lacking class is not bigotry no matter who is on the receiving
end. Come on lighten up and use the right words. Racism, bigotry and hate
speech are too often used where they simply don't apply.
People complain that BYU fans are holier than thou -yet most school with a rich
tradition think their school is the best. Big duh. Alabama, Texas, Notre Dame,
USC, etc. all think they are hot stuff - Wow earth shattering. What a shock
that Oregon thinks they are better than Oregon State. BYU fans like their school
the best - OH MY. Sorry people; but those calling BYU fans "arrogant"
obviously have their own inferiority complex or have no real pride in their own
school.I actually think the "victimier than thou" attitude of BYU
critics is the real pathetic behviour (particularly when displayed by Mormons
who think hating BYU makes them holier than other Mormons). Having
said all that: religious taunts should be off-limits for the same reason schools
playing USF should not be yelling "you're so gay"Hate is hate (even when
directed at Mormons)
Sorry, no one is guaranteed the right to freedom from being offended. This did
not happen in an office, and it wasn't said by any school officials. It was a
bunch of fans - mostly college kids - chanting. It's not religious
bigotry - it's dislike / taunting of BYU fans. Like I said, nothing was
because BYU fans are LDS. It's because the LDS fans were from BYU. Think on
that a while until you understand the difference.I agree that the
MWC and it's member institutions have a responsibility to encourage good
sportsmanship - and that applies to ALL schools. BYU fans started a chant in
someone else's home arena, and didn't like the reply. Maybe if we
all try to display better sportsmanship, we'd all be better off. We all have to
shrug off stereotypes about our schools and the average fan, but let's stop
playing victim and try to reach an understanding. I'm not saying
that the 'mormon' chant was appropriate, but I do teach my kids that it's not
good sportsmanship. Now if BYU fans had chanted it right back... THAT would've
I was not actually offended by it, though it was even more classless than Max
Hall. The way I see it, we can choose to be offended by these things, or we can
be the bigger man (or woman) and not let it bother us.My response to
"Your still Mormon!" is "I sure as heck am!" (yes, I used a "Mormon" word on
Every Mormon I know thought the Conan O'Brien bit was funny.
Religious bigotry is exactly the same a racial intollerance. Refer
to your HR Handbook from work if you think there's a difference.
You can either nip religious bigotry in the bud, or you can wait until it
becomes more serious.Would you take the same approach to racial
intollerance, that it wasn't "that bad" so we should just sweep it under the
rug, ignore it, develop a thicker skin?The MWC and SDSU have an
obligation to prevent such behavior at MWC-sponsored sporting events.Guaranteed, if a MWC or SDSU official said the kind of things SDSU students
were chanting at BYU fans and players, that official would be facing a serious
EEO investigation from their HR manager.If you don't believe me, try
that type of stuff at work tomorrow and see how it goes.
Really? You're REALLY trying to compare this to racism? (from a school that's
overwhelmingly not racially diverse? I'd call that treading on thin ice.)"Factually, as an analogy,(...)"? That phrase doesn't make any sense.
And to opine that there is "little or no difference" is not a fact, it's your
opinion. Interestingly, from what I've heard from players, it's BYU
football players who use the most racial slurs and taunts on the field. And
that's not contrived - ask any football players in the MWC. Racial diversity
isn't exactly BYU's strong point, so I'd back away from that line real quick if
I were you.What if Max Hall had not just said he hated everything
about Utah, but especially their minority fans? When it comes right down to it,
that simply didn't happen - so let's not play "make believe" just to argue about
it.You're making more out of this than what it is. If you want to
feel persecuted, go for it - just don't lay it all at the feet of Aztec fans.
You've got your own issues to deal with.
What's funny about these comments is that those upset are mostly BYU fans, while
other members(non BYU fans) could care less. I wish they would do away with BYU
sports and let the real missionary work begin. I love the church. BYU...not so
C'mon people, as much as some of the chanting was off base - can we stop
comparing this to the Holocaust and "hate speech"? This was a college
basketball game where one group of fans taunted another. There were no burning
effigies, no one attacked someone and kicked their head in yelling epithets...
Yes, some of the chants may have been in bad taste - but nothing was
because BYU fans are LDS. It's because the LDS fans were from BYU. Guaranteed,
The Show wouldn't be dressing as LDS missionaries if Utah had a starting lineup
that was all Mormon. Maybe if we all tried to focus on having a bit
of good humor and sportsmanship instead of playing the "religion card"... Let's
all get over ourselves. At the end of the day, no one in the crowd
really cared if BYU fan is mormon or not - they just wanted to get under your
skin. And it appears to have worked.Maybe we should *all* work on
displaying better sportsmanship - y'know, remove the log from your eye before
worrying about the splinter in your neighbor's eye, or something like that...
This is like the pot calling the kettle black. Didn't Mr. Mormon Max Hall spew
hatred all over Utah? BYU Sports are the worst example of the religion I know.
Most non-members I know hate BYU athletics and such hate the religion. I wish
they would do away with the sports programs at BYU. I feel they're a black eye
on the church and do little but to promote pride and arrogance amongst its
BYU, all fotball aside, when you go down to TX to play the longhorns in 2011, it
is going to be ugly. The Southern Baptists are the most critical, outspoken,
rude, and intolerant group when it comes to the Mormon faith. I must warn you
BYU fans, thicken those skins, because they are cruel down there.
Back when the Aztecs still had a football team -- in the early 1990s -- I recall
copies of their student newspaper being passed around Cougar Stadium. In the run
up to the game, the papaer contained bigoted, mocking columns aimed at Mormons.
They couldn't win on the field. So they tried to get their knocks in in
print.As a former New Yorker, the observation that this would never
fly if you substituted Jews and an NYC school for Mormon and BYU is absolutely
correct. Just ask Jesse Jackson.
While I believe that smiling and walking away is almost always the best answer,
and that's what BYU players and fans typically do (with the exception of a few
misguided souls), I must ask those who continue to justify boorish and bigoted
behavior this question:Grambling comes to play SDSU. At the end of
the game, Grambling fans start a victory chant and the SDSU fans begin the chant
of , "You're still black!"Can you imagine the outcry? Would those of
you so quick to excuse SDSU's anti-mormon comments also excuse that chant as
simply joking around? Would you accuse the Grambling fans who complained as
being poor sports, or argue that they brought it on themselves?And
finally, what would the SDSU administration response be? Factually,
as an analogy, there is little or no difference between the two situations. I
think that's all some here are trying to point out--there is a massive double
standard at play here. I'd personally feel better if people just acknowledged
it. That would be victory enough for me.
The most consistent yet the most illogical argument on this discussion board is,
"Well, BYU brings this on themselves because they think they're better than
everyone else." Oh please. That's the same argument the Nazi's used to justify
their persecution of the Jews. The Jewish people treasure their beliefs and
rituals and have been persecuted for those beliefs for centuries. The only
difference now is it is no longer PC to deride a Jew, while Mormons are still
free game. Don't try to defend bigotry by saying, "Well, you brought this on
yourself." The same thing could be said about the exclusivity of
Catholicism...why not target them?
I'm a longtime Cougar fan, and hope they win every game. I'm always embarrassed
at the "airball" and "hey hey hey, goodbye" and "overrated" chants. The chanting is like smack talk from 2nd graders, and it's done not just to
players who may have dissed the Cougs in some way. It's done to everyone, at
every opportunity, even if the Cougs are up by a gazillion points or the last
freshman on the bench just shot an airball. It's not bad enough to beat them -
it has to be humiliatingly rubbed in if at all possible. To me, it's
embarrassingly poor sportsmanship. I've never seen team members or coaches do
it, so I still love my Cougars.When fans act that way, they are
begging for a counterpunch. If the Cougs just beat your team, what are you going
to shout back? Generally lacking in creativity, and being emotionally upset at
the loss, sports fans will find an easy jab that hits at the heart, since any
sports-related comeback sounds ridiculous after your team lost.Stop
the lame provocations, and let's see if the increased respect is
The insults are simply indicative of fear and insecurity. As LDS population
grows so will the talent base of many of the athletes playing for BYU sports
teams. This is the impetus behind the fear and anger that many teams feel (the
in-state schools have other issues that need to be addressed in another article
and post). My wife and I graduated from BYU and when there is confidence
and hope for the future there is no need for insecurity or offense. GO
I'm surprised that no one has bashed the MTN commentators for their blatant
cheerleading for SDSU. I don't recall a more biased commentary.
In the end, someone always has the last laugh. There is no doubt who that will
be.Until then, I don't really care. I have seen and heard it all
from YUTE fans already.
Any way you want to slice and dice and justify it, religion bashing is bigotted
behavior.A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any
opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of different
ethnicity, race, religion, or class.You have a right to disagree
with anyone's religious beliefs; what you don't have a right to do is bash
someone because they are a member of a particular religion or you don't agree
with their beliefs.There's a hugh difference between disagreeing
with someone's religious beliefs and attacking them personally because you
disagree with their beliefs.
not to offend another's religion or politics. I thought others were being
taught likewise. Bit I reckon it ain't so bssed on the posts I read here.
I was at the UCLA/DePaul game that you mentioned, and the "neutral" crowd was
very supportive of the visiting Bruins, UNTIL, their players returned from the
halftime and were so rude that they couldn't wait a couple of minutes for the
halftime performers to finish their performance. DePaul's players hadn't even
returned to the court, so it's not like it was imperative for UCLA to begin
warming up as soon as they came out of the locker room.UCLA's own
actions turned the "neutral" crowd that had been cheering for the Bruins, into a
hostile crowd that cheered for DePaul throughout the second half and helped give
the Blue Demons the momentum to beat the Bruins.btw, since when is a
neutral crowd required to cheer for or against a particular team?2nd
btw, the NCAA Regionals returning to Provo has more to do with a change in
requirements by the NCAA for hotel accomodations to be within a certain distance
from the venue site, not the fact that the "neutral" crowd started cheering
against the Bruins. Salt Lake City hotels were close enough then, they're not
close enough now.
My wife is from the Boise area. The locals say "boy-see," not "boy-zee." So
the next time I hear a sports announcer say "Boy-zee" State University, I am
going have a major fit, demand an apology, and demand that the errant sports
announcer be suspended.Also, I was a teenager in Champaign,
Illinois, while my dad was getting his Ph.D. The locals say "Illinoy" (silent
s). The next time I hear a sports announcer say "Illi-noise," I will likewise
have a major fit, demand an apology, and demand that the errant sports announcer
be suspended.And while we're at it, if I ever hear a Hispanic sports
announcer say "jUnited eStates," I think I will become deeply offended that the
name of my homeland has been maligned, become irate, and demand that the errant
sports announcer be suspended.Sounds stupid, doesn't it? Well, of
course it is. So shame on Fox Sports for taking political correctness to such
ridiculous extremes, in the first place,and even suspending the so-called errant
sports announcers. And shame on that "Eye-rain-ian" for having such a hissy fit
over incorrect pronunciation.This really beats all!
RE: AZJazzFan | 11:06 a.m. Jan. 27, 2010I agree with you about the
BYU-Arizona game in 2006--I was there. Even after the Wildcats won a close game
many of their fans were horrible and their remarks to BYU faithful on the way
out of the stadium were flat out wrong and showed the ignorance that many people
have about the LDS church. The BYU fans to their credit handled the jeers sent
their way with class.On the flip side, the only LDS player for the
Wildcats commented how surprised he was by the profanities being used by some
BYU players. Great example BYU players!!
Say what you want, it is only your own integrity that is lost.BYU is
an outstanding school. Our teams win. Say what you want, but you
are the one that looks poor in the light.
BYU beat those Aztecs good. I didn't mind all the chanting back and forth,
because we were coming away with the big W. Maybe next year the Aztecs can
support their own team instead of supporting the Cougars. Hahahaha.....that was
and I really DO NOT like BYU . This has to do with their acting superior to the
Utes(and USU and every other school they paly) at every chance they get . Their
QB by the name of Max Hall and his outlandish comments following an overtime
victory this year. BYU fans acted as if the won the NCAA Championship! BYU fans
call the Utes "little brother " when the Utes have historic overall more wins in
both basketball and football over BYU.Maybe its Cosmo that bothers me .Maybe its
"Rise and Shout' It isnt the fact that BYU is an LDS school its the fact that
they are well BYU. GO UTES!
Umm, I actually know gay people, have gay friends, etc., and have said and
continue to say much more derogatory things to them. They give it back. I can
take it, they can take it...amazing people can do that huh? And your crowd
scenario? Point taken but it is fairly obvious you have never been around a
crowd of gays, stuff like that happens all the time. They can take it, do take
it, and would certainly give you more of a comeback than your fragile ego could
Funny to read all these comments with the term bigotry and bigot being thrown
around. I have read so many comments by other LDS members to DesNews articles
where they complain about being labeled bigots for their stance/opposition. The
rational often put forth is that people have made a "choice" to be this or that
and that they aren't bigots because they are opposed to something that is a
"choice."Well, many can respond that being LDS, or any religion for
that matter, is also a CHOICE. Funny when the shoe is on the other foot, eh?
And I'm sure you'd be fine with a bunch of straight homophobes chanting "you're
still gay" to a bunch of homosexuals after losing the annual fashion show.Gays may not view the word "gay" as derogatory, but they can still tell
when someone else uses the word in a derogatory sense.
That's fine, and maybe it wasn't "that offensive."But where do you
draw the line?--somewhat amusing, slightly offensive--somewhat
offensive--just plain offensive--really offensive--digustingly
offensive--downright crude, vulgar, and disgustingly offensive
To the poster who says bigot is over used. Amen, brother. And it does work
both ways. I have seen Brother Ben Olson booed and verbally harrased by a group
of Cougar faithful at the Rose Bowl and had pennies thrown at me at the MC while
cheering for my Bruins at the MC. By the way, Provo fans seem to be a little
tight fisted. They threw quarters at me while I was representing the Dodger
Blue at Candlestick. The most egregious example occured in the 79 regional
western finals at the MC UCLA vs DePaul. During halftime a BYU official came
into the UCLA locker room and told them they could begin their halftime warmups.
Problem was the BYU dancers were still on the floor. Needles to say the BYU
fatihful went BALLISTIC and were very ugly towards a visitng neutral team.
Regionals haven't beento Provo since. Anyway, again it works both ways. Lets
focus on more improtant things. Like helping my son get scholarship money for
BYU. I will enjoy going up for visits and cheering for the Cougs except when
they play the Bruins during which time I will wear thick skin and helmet.
"You're still Mormon" = hate speech?Mormons saying that being called
Mormon is bigotry?Mormons equating the word 'Mormon' with racial
derogatives?Interesting psychology we have.
"Your still Mormon". Let that line sink in a bit before we start crying bigotry
and law suits. Unless some BYU fans faxed in their name removal request at
halftime, I am guessing most BYU fans at the time of that chant still were
Mormon. That is not to say that bigotry doesn't exist and frankly it seems
particularly normalized against the LDS Church right now. But my goodness, much
worse could have been chanted by the SDSU fans and have been chanted in many a
road arena. As a proud member of the Church, I thought the missionary attire was
very funny and the chant kinda was too. We live in a world of such incredible
political correctness and defensiveness that we all need to take a breath, laugh
more at ourselves, and show increased love and charity to all - even to the Utes
Yep, I too would classify the maturity required to accept an apology and move on
in the same category as being a pushover.No, wait, I wouldn't.
Because I'm an adult.
"Nobody is being driven off their land."Not yet!But, I
do have many ancestors who were driven off their land.In today's
society, it starts with hate speech, which, if left unchecked, progresses to
what you described.I know there are non-Mormons who have been
mistreated by Mormons here in Utah, and visa versa, but those have always been
individual instances, neighbor to neighbor. I'm disgusted that some Mormons
behave that way, but that's not the issue here. Personally, I've always treated
my neighbors, Mormon or non-Mormon, with the utmost respect.The
issue is a MWC-sponsored sporting event in which an entire student section was
engaging in bigotted hate speech. That's not only disgusting, it's probably
illegal, especially if SDSU and MWC simply choose to ignore it.
opposing fans dressed as priests, nuns etc.?Oral Roberts, Notre Dame, Cal
Lutheran all participate against many of the same schools BYU does - Holier than
Sure they stand up for LDS teens, but probably only to try to convert them over
to the dark side! Hahaha! No really seriously...I think that I would like the
ACLU just a little bit more if they stood up for the LDS people at EVERY General
Conference and Temple open house. Just saying...
Thats because they are push overs!!!
I've been to many BYU sporting events. I have seen a lot of innappropriate
behavior (throwing things at fans/cheerleaders/players from other teams, verbal
taunting, etc.) from BYU fans. But, I'm not sure I've ever seen anything that I
would consider "holier than thou" behavior (unless you're counting the prayer at
the beginning of the game). What constitutes "holier than thou" behavior at a
sporting event? Will someone please enlighten me?
This kind of thing happens all of the time, however, it matters little what
goofy people say about the members of the Church. For the most part
members, are (or should be) more focused on doing their best to live the Gospel
than worrying about being popular. Arent we a "peculiar" people? This is a double standard against the Church that people know they can get
away with, but I think it is one we have to live with and persist on building
character, keeping the commandments and enjoying our families, not letting the
petty taunts and insults take us away from what is really important in life.
The problem with this behavior is that it shows a genuine lack of civility.
People treat each other so poorly these days that it disgusts me. Just reading
these boards is sad.I have personally sat in the student section at
the MC many many times and never heard something derrogatory towards the other
team. Except the usual airball, and left right chants. I don't even feel like
defending the MC is necessary. The vast majority of us are very respectful to
visitors from other teams even when they aren't very respectful of us. The same
for LaVell Edwards stadium.The double standards is real. If I said
something like that to any member of another religion I would be in big trouble,
but offensive remarks towards us are just laughed at.I loved the
example of the media laughing at Dennis Rodman. They first laugh but then they
are the same peple who come back and say what he said was inappropriate. To the person commenting about the clothes. It wasn't the clothes that
were offensive. Its the clothes + the comments + the gestures. Society is
severely lacking in civility.
Why don't you ask your Mormon neighbors how they feel about how they are treated
by you. You might learn something.
At least BYU fans would accept an apology if it were offered to the university,
unlike some fans from a certain school...
There's a big difference between bashing a religion in general and taking
offense at a particular religion that is comfortable gay bashing, or alcoholic
beverage partaker bashing or whatever it is that the LDS Church uses to offend
others. If you're going to speak out and push your agenda on non-members,
they're going to push back.
ANONYMOUS... criticizing whiners makes you sound like a whiner. I was a
missionary and don't remember shoving anything down anyone's throat. Perhaps you
have been held down and inflicted with tortured requests to come join us. I
have invited several good friends to join me; most have declined, but none hate
me for it. let's make a deal. I will not take offense if you or others make fun
of me and you not take offense if I invite you to the ward dinner.It's
only green jello and it won't hurt you.
I think today's Mormons feel inferior to their persecuted ancestors, so they get
all upset over the smallest things to compensate. Just a few weeks ago Conan
O'Brien had a skit on his show featuring the Mormon "Tap"rnackle Choir.
Predictably the "Mormon Times" cried foul. Aren't you guys trying just a little
too hard? Relax. Nobody is being driven off their land. Why not put your
energies into making sure you are not inadvertently persecuting the true
minority here in Utah - those who are not Mormons. Try asking your non-Mormon
neighbors how they feel about how they are treated by you. You might learn
At least SDSU fans didn't say the HATED everything about BYU. Their fans,
athletics, teachers, administrators, etc. Oh yeah, that was a BYU player. Take
I agree that SDSU students are offensive and immature. At the same time, I am
tired of the holier than thou/pious behavior I often witness when attending a
BYU sporting event.
"You're still Mormon!" is an offensive chant. Why? That is on par with a racial
taunt. C'mon. We'll aren't most of the BYU fans still Mormon. I thought being a
Mormon was something to be proud of. I don't see how that's showing
hate towards a church. Also, the church promotes BYU as the Lord's school.
Though I personally thought Ricks College was the Lord's school and BYU was just
the Church's school.
It's funny how the unrighteous defend being unrighteous. Works both ways.
I don't know where to begin. Students dressing up is funny. They've been doing
it for 20+ years by my own observation. Some of their chants cross the line, but
it is not restricted to BYU or LDS. All visiting teams are exposed to this
treatment. I wish the students knew not to cross the line.That said
I have attended many SDSU road games in Provo over the last 20 years. I must say
at BYU I have personally witnessed some of the most classless and offensive fan
behavior I've seen anywhere. To be fair at BYU I've also had the pleasure to
encounter some of the most hospitable fans you could find anywhere. I say everyone, including the handful of SDSU students, should just take it
easy.Congrats to BYU on a very impressive road conference win
against my Aztecs. That Jimmer is great to watch. I hope the Aztecs beat the
odds and return the favor at Provo.
Whenever your message is "we have the truth", along with the accompanying logic
that "you don't have the truth", you won't get received well.If your
message was "this is what we believe", it would be different.
What's sad is your inability or unwillingness to understand the real issue: hate
speechWould you tell a black man who had just been called the "n"
word by an entire student section a "crybaby" for complaining about it?
Let's not water down and over use a very strong word. Villagers murdered in
Missouri is a result of bigotry as was the massacre of over a hundred innocent
emigrants on their way to California. It happens on both sides of the fence
people. As does boorish fan behavior seen at SDSU or at the Marriott Center.
Can't take the heat, quit knockin' on doors!
It seems to me like the LDS church is the one church people can belittle and not
be called bigoted. It's somehow an exception. You cannot do the same to Notre
Dame, can you? You would get murdered in the press. But towards the LDS
church, it's somehow ok.A lot of Utah fans are on here condoning hate
towards the church because of their dislike for BYU. Sometimes, Ute fans,
you need to man up and have a little dignity. Insulting people's religion is
never ok, if they feel insulted by it. Different people have different amounts
of tolerance for being poked fun at, but it crosses the line when people get
offended. Class has totally left College Sports, and it's never more
obvious than when you look at fan behavior in the BYU/Utah rivalry. Pathetic.
"Singing Hey Hey good bye. How can you possibly not expect SDSU to respond?"Nobody expected SDSU fans not to respond, but responding with religious
bigotry is crossing the line into hate speech, which shouldn't be tolerated.Would you respond to students/fans of an all-black school with racial
taunts if they were singing "Hey Hey good bye"?
When you live right....Magic happens
It's ok to yell and scream about someone's religion. But yell out "you're still
GAY" !!! or "you're still black" !! and boy the fur is gonna fly. Trust me those
students would have been hauled in and expelled the next day for their
insensitive bigoted remarks.
STOP ALL THIS NONSENSE! all this wimpy crybaby stuff will get you nowhere! You
BYU diaper derby's needs to grow up. Everyone gets picked on when it comes to
Mormons love competitiveness with a capital C, thus their engagment in the war
of sports. If they are going to be in the world let them get used to hearing
from the world.
Do you equate the two cheers as similar? The reason so many people are upset
about it is because they do not see the two cheers as similar.The
first cheer was relating to the results of the game; the second cheer was
completely unrelated to the game or anything to do with sports.
Anyone who defends the actions of these SDSU fans won't understand an
explanation of why it is inexcusable.
TAKE A LOOK AT THIS EVERYONE!!!AHHHH | 7:05 a.m. Jan. 27, 2010"Another reason why BYU is a pretender in the world of Collge athletics.
Schools all over the country have their own slang terms or certain trash talk
they have for other schools. GET OVER IT! BYU fans are classless too! This
article is lame! "Everyone else is against BYU, It's us vs. the world",
attitude. Give me a break, stop crying and get over it. BYU fans always point
the finger, they seem to figure to never look into the mirror for their own
problems. that's just a problem of living in the bubble."This guy is
so full of it, it's hard to tell where to start. Problem is, there are a lot
like him/her."Pretender" What the heck does that mean??? They just
pretend to win championships, it's not "real"?Since when is bringing
some ones religion into play "just trash talk"??Mister, I have
heard all the slurs, the names, etc. etc. But I was there in the 80s twice in
Laramie when Wyoming "fans" threw cups of urine on BYU players coming out of the
You may not be one of the "classless" ones, but you are clueless."Classless" can also be defined as showing a "lack of class"...which I've seen more and more from Utah fans/BYU haters in recent years.Utah fans aren't alone, however; this "crudening" of society is reaching
epidemic proportions.As a Utah alum, however, I'm embarrassed to be
associated with the behavior of some Utah fans.
Those who loathe others first loathe themselves. They just find a target for
that loathing in order to fool themselves. Hate speech,
depersonalization, euphinisms, always precede dangerous persecution: the "n"
word, Nazi's calling it the Jewish "problem" and extermination "the final
sololution." That is why hate speech is dangerous - it is a first step
YOU ARE SPOT ON!!! 99% of BYU fans can dish it out but can't take it. Mormon
Aztec gave a PERFECT EXAMPLE...Singing Hey Hey good bye. How can you possibly
not expect SDSU to respond? And when they did you were upset?
His main complaint was the chant answer to BYU chants. maybe SDSU should invoke
the solution that BYU does and not sell tickets to opponents in the same area.
Scatter BYU througou the arena like BYU does to its opponents. But then again,
that wouldn't be very sportsmanlike.
Didn't you just judge too?
Someone can show a "lack of class" or can have "no class" in a situation. "Classless" is not defined as people are beginning to use the word.
Seems there has been an increase in the incorrect usage ever since Max Hall
talked about the Utes being "classless" and, at the same time, showing his lack
of understanding of the English language.class⋅less—adjective1. of or pertaining to a society in which there are no
economic or social distinctions.2. (of an individual) not having
membership in a social or economic class or group.
I think the missionary thing is funny. Who really cares? If they want to chant
anti-LDS mantras, that is their first amendment right. It is also their right to
look like fools. If they did the same thing to Xavier, Notre Dame, TCU etc.,
there would be an uproar. Go figure.
As an active LDS person I love it. Who cares when people insult the religion?
BYU fans aren't any better. I sat in the student section once at the Marriott
Center thinking it would be fun, and almost every little boy student was
chanting something just as harsh to the other team. Never sat there again
because of the immaturity. Sports brings out the worst in most people, just take
it. I laughed at the white name tags and bike helmets they were wearing while
watching BYU embarrass SDSU at home. Makes it even better when you're talking
trash and your team loses.
Chanting, heckling, screaming, yelling, taunting, and cheering are not the same
as religious bigotry.Please don't confuse them.And,
please don't use the former to excuse the latter.If you can't
distiguish between them, you really need some sensitivity training.Fans and teams who are subjected to this type of abuse, and yes, it is abuse,
are best off simply learning to ignore it.But, that doesn't mean it
should be excused and ignored by school and conference officials who have a
responsibility to prevent such behavior from occurring at MWC sponsored
events.Some of what the SDSU students were doing clearly approaches
"hate speech", which is not only repulsive, it's illegal.
I am active LDS and I have to wonder why there is so much hate and resentment
towards BYU? You don't see the hatred and vile reaction against USU (starting 4
returned missionaries) or other schools with a lot of LDS student athletes. What is it about BYU that evokes such hatred and negativity?I don't
think the negativity comes form being LDS as much as it comes from BYU. Why?
The orginal take is right. YOU GUYS BRING IT ON YOURSELVES! You guys think you
are better than everyone else on every level. No one judges people more than
I could put quote after quote by highly respected LDS leaders that would never
get past the moderator which would put your rosy picture of Mormon respect for
other religion into serious question.
Of course the unmentionable truth.....Mormonism is pretty darned funny, we
culturally overcompensate with 'faith displays' such as the missionary program
which only heightens the derision, and we all know our culture is strange
enough that we ought to be darn offended if someone mocks it.
Double standard? FalseOk so you dress up as Jews, Nuns, or Catholic
priests would you be hanged for that? Let’s just say it wouldn’t
bring more members into your church/school.Wearing Mormon missionary
attire is fair game for heckling!Here is my reasoning. With most
religious cultures there is clothing that is sacred or special to that religion.
Catholic Priests have all their fancy robes; Nuns wear their coal black
dresses. These clothes are more special than just regular attire. Among these
types of clothes I would definitely add the Mormon’s temple attire. It
would definitely be wrong to heckle with this attire? Right?Ok,
Mormon missionary attire consists of common clothes found among our own business
culture. Many missionaries wash their outfits not nearly as often as most
people would think. The attire is also treated as regular business attire.
Missionaries tend to ride bikes or walk in the blazing heat all day long. These
outfits are not considered sacred. I’ve seen missionaries where it looks
like they just got out of a mud wrestling match. Please do not
compare missionary attire to sacred religious clothing.
Anonymous has a problem apparently. I don't know any Mormons who whines or try
to shove the religion down anyones throat. Missionaries try to take the good
news to everyone as the Savior did while He was on the earth.The active ones
know who they are..where they came from , their purpose in life and where they
are going..if anonymous knew this he would not make statements such as this..
to ponder what the Mormons really think about other religions is to know that
Mormons respect other beliefs and they don't criticize others ..they only make
the statement that we have all that you have plus more that has been revealed to
us..The abuse has been going on for many many years and yes We are still here
and happy and enjoy the blessings that come through our faithfulness.
"Come BYU supporters. Live your honor code, admit your self-righteousness and
fix it before you point at others' bad behavior."BYU fans have an
honor code?Serious, fans do?How about us non-LDS BYU
fans? Do I have an honor code I must follow because I support BYU.O
have a code that I personally try to treat others with respect. I'll use that
code, and ask the same from you, a Utah fan. How about that. Can we agree on
that one thing? How about next BYU-Utah game? I go out of my
way to treat all Utah fans with respect, and you Utah fans go out of your way to
treat BYU fans with respect.We can leave the rest between the BYU
students, and whoever is responsible for them.
I thought the chanting by the BYU fans brought on the entire incident. Instead
of enjoying a nice hard-fought win in the opponents building, the BYU fans
started chanting things like "Hey, Hey, Hey Good-bye". What do you expect to
happen? BYU fans need to take the good with the bad. BYU and religion go hand in
hand. BYU openly promotes its religion so don't be surprised when outsiders
blurr the two. I don't understand why LDS (BYU fans) feel so persecuted. This
isn't persecution. I'm sure the early members of the church would laugh to here
the stories of the terrible persecution BYU fans endured at a basketball game.
Maybe the fans should have dressed up as CA Proposition 8 supporters. LDS
complains that white shirts and a stupid chant by hammered 20 year old's treats
them unfairly? How do you think the groups that the LDS discriminates against
Love the Elie Wiesel references cuz you know first they make fun of the highly
mockable and then they toss you in the ovens. Yepper.You can only
offend someone that chooses to take offense, mockery is no crime. (I don't even
think it's immoral.....just another in the long list of ways to communicate!)
Lookout MWC and TheMtn.When some idiot crosses the line and someone gets
hurt the MWC and the Mtn. network are going to get sued down to thier socks. I'm
with the Duke guy, crying is pointless and thus we see BYU doing none of that.
But if the league, network and universities do nothing to stop what goes on in
Vegas at the conference tournament, and permits what the feds call hate crimes
without response, they ought to start funding an account to pay the punitive
BYU 71 - SDSU 69 Enough Said. Not offended...Let's be proud of
who we are in spite of goofy students who really don't care.
To bluto, Actually Warren Jeffs father, Rulon Jeffs, was AT ONE POINT
LDS. He was married to a daughter of a general authority, I can not remember
for sure which one. He then decided he needed more wives, she divorced him and
he was excommunicated in the late 1930s. Warren Jeffs was born in the
1950s, so he was never LDS. The FLDS Church is actually one of two
groups that traces its origin to the initial excommunicats from the LDS Church
in and around 1910. The other is what is know as the Kingston Clan.
In someways the FLDS are about as connected to the initial break-off group as
the RLDS were connected to Joseph Smith in 1965. I chose that year because the
Community of Christ since then has gone through so many doctrinal and procedural
changes that there are many break-off groups that claim to more accurately
reflect the Church as it existed under Joseph Smith III, and since one of the
things that the Community of Christ rejects is the historicity of the Book of
Mormon (and even more so its doctrinal correctness) this is a valid argument.
While I was at BYU I heard more offensive things (than were mentioned in the
article) at the Marriott Center, directed to opposing teams. Not just taunting,
but racism, etc.
"What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at our heels . . . . The caravan
moves on." With that said, SDSU and the MWC should issue an apology
to BYU and the church.I was offended - but will get over it. I am
saddened by how callous and mean society (particularly college and pro sports
fans) have become. I just consider the source and move on.
To the 9:12 commentor, I only wish we had a fully functioning Muslim
University in the US. We would have fewer problems with suicide bombers if
there was one. The best anecdote to violent extremism is true intelectual
I love being anonymous like what John Walsh says "YOU CAN REMAIN ANONYMOUS" so
if you don`t like that you whiner then to bad!!!
There certainly are a lot of mis-perceptions about the ACLU. Firstly they don't
take the case of the attacked religion. They usually take the case of the
attacker, unless that attacker is the government. In that case the ACLU usually
takes the side of the religion? Why? It is something called the bill of
rights. Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech.The government
cannot regulate religion but at the same time can't regulate an individual's
right to attack a religion (no matter how boorish that person is.)
Best thing to do about insensitivity toward the LDS Church is to simply ignore
it. To comment only feeds the ignorant. Gentlemen and gentlewomen neither
stoop to actions or comments offered in bad taste nor do they fail to recognize
it in others.Alas, I have now failed to head my own counsel but I
will say no more.
I remember the Dennis Rodman comment. Something that was never brought up at
the time was the reaction of all the news media standing around Rodman when he
made the comment. They thought he was quite funny. They all seemed to laugh
along with him. It wasn’t until later that the media jumped all over him
for what he said.
I'm LDS and for the most part if we can just learn to laugh at ourselves,
realize why it is that people are derisive towards our religion, and act like
true Christians we'd be fine. There are plenty of real issues in life we should
fret about, and no doubt some individuals cross the line of what is classy and
not, but these are things we should rise above and not make a battle.Some
of the chants at USU are so funny when BYU is in town that I don't know how the
players don't just crack up on the court.Carry our torch high people,
regardless of who tries to knock you down or how they do it.
To the 7:21 commentator, So you are saying chanting "over-rated" and
making obscene jestures while jeering "you're still Mormon" are the same? I think it is you who needs to learn civiity and proportionality. "Over
rated" is not a personal insult on a school or a fan base. You do not make any
sense at all.
Obviously there is a double standard here, as BYU fans would be hung publicly if
we treated other fans the same way when they came to our place...Notre Dame, or
a Jewish University, as an example. But we're better than that and we don't,
which is what we should continue to do. And that is why Notre Dame respects us
and will continue to play us. I was at the BYU/Arizona football game a few
years ago and had numerous students yelling at me to ask how Warren Jeffs was
doing. The best response is simply to chuckle and admire the creativity, and
then walk away. I thought the missionary uniforms were funny. Some of the
comments were probably offensive, but that's to be expected by many who don't
understand fully what they are mocking. Thickskin wins the day here. And if we
can't have thickskin, then watch the game on TV and leave in-person attendance
to those of us who can handle it.
Unfortunately, college can't teach or correct stupidity and ignorance, if that
is what the students want. Of course, the teachers would also have to be smart
and knowledgeable. And the administration.
I think the best way to deal with persecution is just ignore it for the most
part, or maybe even try to be more accessible, friendly, and helpful to our
criticizers. Responding in a self-righteous way as if we are above being
criticized is the wrong way to go in my opinion. There are a lot of positive
things to focus on, rather than always considering ourselves as being
victimized.I was at Park City skiing one time and these Mormon kids
were surrounding a guy and yelling at him 'are you from Ohio', it was insane. I
think the teaching is the 'endure it well'.
To J and others, Since the Stanford marching band openly mocked
Catholics in a game against Notre Dame, and no one was kicked off for it, I
think mocking of Catholics would work more than you think. There are some
groups who viciously mock Catholics, and they are clearly accepted and even
encoraged in California. In the wake of events in Maine and Connecticut,
at least in New England anti-Catholicism is more alive and well than
anti-Mormonism. Mormons are not the only faith attacked by these bigots.
We would be better off if we stopped crying "only me" and started seeing the
systematic and ugly attack on all faiths that dare proclaim marriage as the
union of a man and a woman. Some of the ugliest and most bitter attacks
are those waged by Reformed Jews against Orthodox Jews.
Although the San Diego fans were jeering the BYU fans with "You're still
Mormon," with the intent to insult, I think we should embrace and own it as a
compliment. Think what the members of the Church have faced in our history:
mobs, extermination, slander, homelessness, a cross-ocean/country exodus, wars,
government oppression, etc. And we're still standing. In fact, we're
flourishing, and helping deserts to blossom like roses. Despite all the grief
we've suffered, and knowing that we'll only continue to plunge in popularity as
we remain firm on moral issues, we're "still Mormons." Those who will not stand
firm will weed themselves out. "Still Mormon," is, in my book a triumph!
The Lord said "I will show things you must suffer for my name sake." I for one
am extremely proud to be Mormon and don't expect everyone to respect or
understand. And yes utes are the worst! No doubt. I know I unfortunately went to
the u. I know what I am talking about.
I have read things that suggest that among the taunts here were attempts to
imply there are BYU players with more than one wife. Is that true? If it is,
why is such blantant lieing tolerated instead of denounced?
I am an Air Force Academy alum so don't accuse me of anything, but your logic of
"generalizations" about how BYU fans act is both ridiculous and shows poor
logic. It doesn't matter what people say or do, there are some things that are
personal and are off limits. Justification for attacking religion at sporting
events has no justification period! It is poor sportsmanship PERIOD. Scream,
yell, boo, cry, moan whatever but attacks on a person's family and religion are
below the belt. I am sure most Utah fans would agree with me. I invite you to
reconsider your statement that "because they are so holier than thou (which how
is that meaasured? I submit it is more perceived than actual)they should be
demeaned religiously". Poor logic SOCALUTE fan, poor logic. I am grateful most
all of my Ute friends understand this. Say BYU fans are "holier than thou or
self richeous" if it makes you feel better but don't attack the religion.
I recall a time in the 60's when spectators were throwing spark plugs at BYU
Basketball players on the court and one BYU player named Miller , proclaimed
"but I am Catholic " so I guess "things" have improved. These are small minded
people in small numbers that love to hate the victor.
Mormons deserve it. They steamroll us with their "one true church" stuff,
disturb us at our homes with their missionaries, push their beliefs into law
through the heavily mormon legislature, so they get what they get.Sorry.Be better neighbors and fewer people will taunt you.This is
CA has some very strict anti-discrimination laws. Having had to attend classes
for my work, I know just enough about them to make me dangerous. CA includes
discrimination based on religion as a protected class. If you really
want SDSU to take notice, find an LDS usher or security guard and have them sue
the university based on religous discrimination. The legal term for it is a
"hostile work environment" and the university has a duty to all its employees to
provide a non-hostile environment. It doesn't even matter that it was the crowd
that was causing the issue. It's still the university's problem.
is a popular poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemller (1892—1984) about
the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the
purging of their chosen targets, group after group. In Niemller's first
utterance of it, in a January 6, 1946 speech before representatives of the
Confessing Church in Frankfurt, it went:First they came for the
communists, and I did not speak out–because I was not a communist;Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak
out–because I was not a trade unionist;Then they came for the
Jews, and I did not speak out–because I was not a Jew;Then
they came for me–and there was no one left to speak out.---------------------Where do we draw the line with religious
intollerance and bigotry?Do we choose to ignore it because it's only
happening to the "Mormons" and not to a group we care about?
Do I understand correctly that we are upset because they said "Your Still
Mormons"? Um - Ya I am. So?I can get the gestures anywhere I go,
Mormon or not. So isn't the best way to handle this by walking out with our
heads held high because they acknowledged what we are? Otherwise, us getting
upset about this kind of makes us look like we were mad they were calling us
Mormons - which I have no problem with being called. :)And at least
they know what a missionary looks like. Good for them. It'll help them
recognize them when they are ready. :)
It cuts both ways. You cannot on one hand be defending the inconsiderate and
boorish remarks of your quarterback and on the other be "hurt" or "offended"
when others refer to you, your school, your religion or culture in what you feel
is an unfavorable manner. I have no first hand knowledge of what was said or
chanted by the SDSU fans but I would bet there is a very good chance it was not
nearly as bad as has been claimed. BYU and its fans bring a lot of
this on themselves by their "we are better than you attitude". If you want
people to honor and respect you, act honorable and respectable.
Dear D-News,Make all bloggers register and not able to hide behind
stupid comments. Most other news blogs require some kind of registration. I'm
sick reading stupid, insipid comments by people hiding behind anonymity. If you don't take action, the only people reading your paper online will
be these bigoted idiots.
"that other religions aren't attacked as often or as much as mormonism is that
much more proof that the faith is what it says it is and that's why all the
opposition."Lets carry this logic out and see how it works. Most
people are against littering. Littering most be good. If you were to
look at the history of Christianity. Christianity had amazing growth from its
obscure beginnings. If you drive down the street and people keep
pointing at your car. Your headlight may be out.As a person who
knows gentiles and grew up in Mormonism, you all, could learn to get along
better with others.
interesiing how someone from So Cal home of USC and UCLA whines that BYU fans
have a "We are better than you" attitude. Of course they do: Last time I
checked, most fans have that attitude about their own school (unless their
support is based upon hatred of another school rather than pride in their own
school - in which case they probably root for Utah lol) So who is playing
the victim here?
Re: AHHHHHH | 9:05 a.m. Jan. 27, 2010 "Another reason why BYU is a
pretender in the world of Collge athletics."Really? Like a current
top ten ranking in basketball? Or the #12 ranking in football to end the season?
Real pretenders there.I would love to hear your response. ---------I can't recall BYU doing anything note worthy in the MWC.
Can anyone else?When was the last time BYU won on the national
stage?basketball: 1983football: 1984
WHAT WAS THAT RANKING AGAIN #12th Sorry I won't remember that by next year. I
know you attended the Vegas bowl the last 4 years or whatever. Yes! pretenders
your fans booo anytime there is any kind of penalty, even when it's a no
brainer. I felt embarrassed for the fans when I went up to watch my alma mater
play there. Terrible tailgating, terrible traffic in provo, Boring game.
Maybe they don't like the fact that the chruch thus the school came out against
equal rights under Prop 180.
It's that kind of attitude that makes some people think it's OK to express their
bigotry. In this enlightened time when everyone is supposed to be PC, it's OK to
behave this way towards the LDS Church and it's members because of the Church's
support of Prop. 8 and it's standards.
Don't you just HATE it when sports fans bash religion at athletic events?I mean, C'mon! Religion has nothing to do with sports!Oh,
wait. I guess it is the BYU and LDS people, and the fanatics like TEBOW who keep
SHOVING RELIGION DOWN EVERYBODY'S THROATS!If you are going to shove
your religion in everybody's faces, even in athletic events, then you can expect
religion to get rightfully BASHED!Keep your religion OUT of sports,
and so will everybody else!Stop shoving your religion on everyone
and they will stop bashing your religion.Otherwise, get used to it
and stop playing the pathetic persecution card! You make yourselves out to be
not only fanatics, but WHINERS!
As an active Mormon myself I love LDS humor. My goodness, there is a ton of
quirky things about our faith and culture that I find humorous almost on a daily
basis. I have perfected the self control needed to not burst into laughter at
comments made in classes literally every Sunday. It has taken an almost Zen-like
concentration but I think I am almost there. We have to be able to laugh at
ourselves. Many LDS need to remember Bill Murray's words in Stripes to "lighten
up, Francis"!But it does cross a line when others are making fun of
you. It's one thing to be able to laugh at yourself (extremely healthy) but
mocking and ridiculing what is sacred to others is just never okay in our
society. And there truly has become some kind of universal acceptance that
mocking Mormons is somehow not wrong in the same way mocking other religions is.
It's a lot like my kids - I can make fun of them all I want but boy do I get
defensive when others put them down.Go Cougs and Go all you Rattley
Silly BYu fans or whatever planet you live on. I have came to understand that
mormons love to point the finger. They rarely address the problems as their own.
Just read some of these comments, people referring to California or the schools
there. People referring to Univ of Utah, GIVE ME A BREAK. The reason a lot of
people despise you, is because you want the power to say the things to other
teams and you want the power to play the humble "we don't do that card". Sorry
BYU fans I see right through you and have been to games where your behavior is
out of line.
If we are going to open this can of worms, how about the anti-mormon signs that
crowds display AND THEY ACTUALLY MAKE IT ON TV DURING THE GAME? The last I
recall was last ime BYU played football at TCU. Am I the only one that noticed
all the crude, slamming remarks those signs displayed? Brad is right on the
money, if ANY of our schools did that to say TCU, Notre Dame, ect. there would
be tons of complaints!
Why is anyone surprised...David James of KUTV, also from San
Diego...On his program the other week, was talking about Warren
Jeffs, and wondering what his middle name was.. James suggested contacting The
Church Office building for an answer.He is unable, after living here
for what, 15 years, to distinguish between fundamentalist polygamists and
Mormons. Jeffs never has been a member of the LDS Church, nor was
his Father or Grandfather, they (LDS Church)don't have his records, and never
have had them, why would they? Who's more ignorant? David James or Bill Marcroft? Who, before a Utah BYU game in the
eighties stated; "Joseph Smith founded both the University of Utah
and BYU". This from a local East High alumn.I seen the same
ignorance from U fans on a daily basis.Remember the Stanford game at
halftime? Nothing new here folks. Mormons are fair game with the bigots.
As a former resident of San Diego and one time Aztec fan, (also a former BYU
student), I am embarrassed and hurt by the actions of these students. I think
they SHOULD apologize for their poor taste.
that many people don't consider Mormonism a legitimate religion. Also, consider
that BYU fans, players, and coaches often bring this sort of derision on their
teams because of THEIR actions. Arrogance and an inappropriate condescending
attitude evoke responses like that at SDSU. Roger Reid was an excellent example
of that sort of behavior; many posts on Ute articles are other examples that
provoke derisive responses. Something about a mote in one's own eye. . .
you mean S D STATE has FANZZZZZZZZ? Every Game I see Televised from
San Diego, the stands are near empty?
That's the problem with religions in general-they are easily offended by the
most trivial things, in fact I think a lot of religious people actually try to
find things to be offended by.
I happen to be a SoCal Ute fan whose is also a "Mormon". We do not have an
animosity against BYU. It is called "embarrasssment" about how much the BYU fans
cry about how mistreated they are. The BYU fans seam to have a "We are better
than you" attitude that infuriates the fans of all of the other schools in the
country. When you start treating the apposing schools fans a equal human beings,
you will stop beinng "picked on' so much.Think about this, It will help
you in the future.
re: SDSU's punishment | 9:46 p.m. Jan. 26, 2010 //Like John Rocker,
the San Diego State student body should undergo sensitive training.//Funny. Letting a group 20 yr olds upset you. Again, yet another
example of Zoobs whining so they can play the persecution card AGAIN for at
least the millionth time.
A university representitive hiding behind freedom of speech is laughable. No
where is politically correct driven censorship more prevelent than on university
campuses. Use it to sheild yourself and then to impose your opinion on others
in lame and weak, and used everyday by these academians. the sports director
should ahve had more fortitude and said: hey, its wrong. Straight-up.So I didn't spellcheck, sue me.
My friends on this board it is a sad day when those who hat PCness believe it is
their right to have PC extended to them. I would propose a simple solution get
over it and relish in the opportunity that you are given. I am of the group of
thought that the more people hate me, especially the extremists the more I like
it. Take the same approach life is always more fun that way.
"The MWC conference does not like or respect BYU in spite of their carrying the
water for the conference in most sports."Right, like BYU's multiple
BCS Bowl bids or their trip to the Final Four Championship Game.Truth is, none of the larger conferences are interested in BYU, nor would they
treat the school any better than the MWC does.
BYU and Utah also have a long history in football, however the two schools
disagree on exactly when the series started. BYU asserts that the series began
in 1922, but Utah claims that it actually began in 1896 when BYU was known as
the Brigham Young Academy (BYA). From 1896-1899, BYA and Utah played each other
six times, with each school winning three games. Either way, Utah leads the
football series: 53—33—4 or 50—30—4.
You're still an SDSU student! (good luck in life)
I am with Scoreboard. Who cares as long as BYU is dominating?
winning isn't everything as they say. But it sure beats being a loser and
Thats a great point where is the ACLU on this deal? If it were any other
religion they would be having a fit!! This is the group that protects cop
killers and rapists but wont stand up for good.
(The fact) what religion are you?
I am absolutely against any anti-Mormon crusade or display. But a BYU fan named
"Ute Fans are the Worst" at 4:41 says the following about Utes:"Some
kind of inferiority complex perhaps for not getting good enough grades and
having to live at home with Mom until you're well into your 20's?? Check your
facts, 80% of Utes live at home."While self-righteous
statements like the above are just a joke, the SDSU students would claim their
antics are just a joke also.While I don't condone anti-Mormon
sentiments (I am Mormon myself), I sometimes think BYU supporters almost cry "I
dare you!" to anti-Mormons and Ute fans who hate them.Come BYU
supporters. Live your honor code, admit your self-righteousness and fix it
before you point at others' bad behavior. Otherwise, we Latter-Day
Saints will have a hard time being respected if this non-sense continues.
Hey "Anonymous" if you feel so strong about Mormons shoving their religion down
peoples throats why are you scared to put your name up there? At least we have
something positive so share with society and making the world a better place
what are you doing besides hiding behind your "Anonymous" quotes
This is really ironic. The Mountain West Conference spends thousands of dollars
airing commercials about proper sportsmanship and yet they allow this type of
bigotry to go on.
Losing consistently has always created bad feelings toward the winners.
"Its not RIGHT but its TRUE".Mormons are fair game and nobody does a
thing about it.Muslims?Can't whisper a word about that
corrupted murderous terrorist jihadist religion.Oh well, if you read
the good book you know this was the "forecast".It will get worse
before it gets better too.
Bigotry is progressive. First its insults, then small acts of violence which
leads to more and more. Any state institution supported by the general tax fund
should act vigorously to make bigotry unacceptable. San Diego State University
must stand up now.
All I can say is the missionary attire was funny and I have no problem with it.
But just imagine for a second if there were a Muslim university playing SDSU and
all of the students wore towels on their heads with carboard cut-outs of camels
or something. And then, chanted "You're still Muslim!" at the end of the game.
Right, SDSU would be horrified. Seems to be ok though to insult the Mormom
faith. I'm no prude, I've lived in Utah, Colorado, Georgia, and
Maryland. I've heard about every Mormon joke there is at work, but I wouldn't
dare joke about another religion in the office workplace. So yes there is a
double standard, but you know what, fine, I love my religion and all of this has
happened before to the faithful. At least we don't have mobs (yet).
This reminds me of how I was harassed by Mormon bullies as kid and it drove me
out of the church permanently, but that didn't matter because I was not the rich
kid in the neighborhood.
Bernie Kosar was on that ESPN "The U." movie saying Notre Dame was the most
"un-Christian environment" he's ever played in. Quick, someone tell
him how it "really is."
I'm still Mormon? Thanks!
"Another reason why BYU is a pretender in the world of Collge athletics."Really? Like a current top ten ranking in basketball? Or the #12
ranking in football to end the season? Real pretenders there.I
would love to hear your response.
I'm LDS and live in Las Vegas and I will confirm with this article that it goes
beyond basketball with BYU. I've gone to all BYU games down here and I'm
shocked when I'm at the game and how much cheering is done against the faith as
opposed to the team.This doesn't happen with Utah so it just goes to
show most games get heated because of the Church and what BYU is. Oh well, I
just hope they beat UNLV next week!!
It was some of the signs that were offensive, not the students dressed as
missionaries. Although from what I saw of the game on TV, I didn't personally
see the signs. The "missionaries" were fine, except they need to do a better job
on the name tags. The tags looked more like the "Hi, my name is.." stickers from
a high school reunion.
I watched this game last night - a replay. I was amazed at how often the camera
panned these wannabe's (you know they are just jealous that they aren't really
missionaries)! But knowing that BYU pulled out the win, made me chuckle even
more. Enough said!!!!
Apologies that are forced are - no good. Apologies that are tendered long after
the 'players' are dead and gone - not sincere. Apologies that aren't meant means
people have declined and no longer recognize how to live in polite society.
It's just sad that the foul and vulgar language is not only acceptable, but
encouraged because nothing is expected of people today. I too, would not take
children to an 'R' rated football game. How sad.
All students attending the SDSU game in provo this year should dress as
scoreboards. That'll show 'em.
'Eye' ranian or 'Ear' ranianSaddam = Sa 'dom' or Sa 'dam'Italian =
'Eye'talian pr 'eh' talianand the list goes on.And
someone got suspended for pronouncing a name wrong?And then the
religious stuff happens at a BB game? It's very clear that today's younger
society has been raised to find much of this 'in your face' reality garbage as
acceptable behavior. A pitty.If I ever found that one of my children
participated in this type of behavior then we would have one of those 'woodshed'
moments my daddy gave me!
Is San Diego State located in the U.S.? Is that a real school or did someone
make that up?
"I'm still Mormon," and the Cougs still kick Aztecs.
Say whatever you want about Mormons--that's fine.But you sure as
heck had better not mispronounce "Iranian" or you will be suspended from your
job.Does it get any more stupid than that?
You cannot control the behavior of individual fans at games. As a BYU fan and
student, I admit there are BYU fans who may be offensive. BYU student sections
as a whole, however, would never participate in cheers that put down a religion
or race. You think that BYU fans are embarrassing and gross? You must not
attend a lot of sporting events. BYU plays the opposing team's fight song before
every home football game and prays for the opposing team to play their best. A
letter was written to the BYU Daily Universe by a Florida State booster saying
they had never seen nicer fans in 30 years of following Florida State athletics.
They told stories of nice BYU fans and this came in a game where BYU wet their
pants and lost by 30!If one fan or several fans had yelled derogatory
comments about Mormons there would be no "whining" expressed on this board. But,
when an entire group of students unite in anti-Mormon cheers you cannot deny
that it is offensive. Whether you become offended by the comments or not is your
choice to make.
So, is "eye-ranian" not how it is pronounced in English? It never ceases to
amaze me how far political correctness is taken.
I don't like the double standard that is employed these days. PC has gone over
the top regading race and sexual orientation leaving religion, specifically
Mormons, by the wayside. That being said, oh well. As long as I or my property
aren't physically harmed or threatened, I will do my best to let it roll off my
back. The missionary uniforms at SDSU were hilarious - especially the helmets.
(I wear a helmet when I cylce now and wore one as a missionary as well)
Even if “you’re still Mormon” was meant as an insult, to me it
isn’t. If I didn’t want to be Mormon, I wouldn’t be. I
couldn’t care less what other people think of me or my religion.If I wanted to I could change my religion. The fact is, they can’t
change the scoreboard.
I guess this means that when in high school and the opposing teams cheerleaders
came over to our side to give a "hello" cheer and we (yes Mormons) chanted
U-G-L-Y ugly ugly we were "icky"
is not comparable to obsene gestures and Mormon chants. Can't you see the
difference, Mr Classless?
Its about time that BYU simply dropped sports altogether. It only brings out the
worst in people and that is not what the church should be about.
I suspect that at times like these it would be well to remember the words of the
Master:Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and
a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. . .
.Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and
hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that
curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you; . . .For if ye love them which love you, what
reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your
brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Some may demand an apology but I suspect the university itself will
take the above approach.
What in the heck was this artical about? Look, the issue in San Diego was
addressed but have you ever seen a bigger attempt at sweeping what USU and Utah
fans do to BYU?I've have been to many away games for BYU. I've been to
every conference teams stadium. multiple times. And in all my years I have
never seen more bigotry and down right hated then what I have seen pouring out
of both the University of Utah and USU. The irony of it all is the LDS
population number at both schools, yet both Utah and USU fan's seem to try to
see just how far they can go to insult BYU and the Church at sporting events.
But leave it again to the Utah media to sweep that elephant in the
room under the rug.
the dumbest comments by students that don't get it are by Aggies!
If student sections would dress as:Catholic bishops, or nuns?Jewish
rabbis?Muslim priests?Buddhist monks?Hindu priests?And, what if there were negative chants about each religion? Why is it okay
to mock the Mormon faith, but not the others? There would be HUGE outcry's in
the examples above...and everyone knows it. Whether or not you like
the Mormon faith, it doesn't matter. People simply can't make fun of religious
figures, whether you agree with them or not. I don't agree with the Hindu god
Ganesh (An elephant head, wit multiple arms), so does that make it okay to dress
like that at a golf course or cricket match or another event where Hindu
I am a mormon I can take a joke, but I dont see why people have to be so against
our church, and I am going to be going on a mission, when people say we shove
our religion down peoples throats I dont see it, we just want to help people,
some take it to the extreme, but some don't, we give the people the opportunity,
maybe the churched helped our lives so much and when someone is in trouble its
the only way we can answer is pray and have faith, dont say we shove it down
your throats because you have a choice to listen or not......
Here's my take. Classless and inappropriate? Certainly. However, BYU, you're
a church school...this is going to happen. Grow some skin. May as well get
used to it.And y'all complain about USU fans being classless...HA!
I've dealt with teasing and harassment all my life, especially growing up in
California. I had an LDS baseball teammate who quit the team because of all the
remarks targeted toward our faith. When your mormon, you walk around with a
target on your back. In the experiences I've had in life, it seems society says
it's okay to be anything but mormon. When I entered basic training in the Air
Force, one particular airman would always come up to me during any down time we
had and tell me my religion was false. He was a Baptist. He never told anybody
else their "religion" was wrong, not even the atheists. However, I know that
being LDS comes with a lot of opposition. The greater the opposition though, the
greater the glory. Makes me think of an Albert Einstein quote "Great Spirits
have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
I teach in the Middle East and have had students from Iran. Interestingly, many
of them pronounce the word just as Mike Smith did.
It's a religon! It's my testimony that matters and my family. If someone wants
to offend my church, who cares. You utahns who have a serious problem with just
letting things go and always playing the tough man role, need to let it go. You
should only be worried about your own testimony, not others. When you die you
won't be asked about someone else's life.
The ACLU backing a student who lost his state-funded merit-based scholarship
because he left college to serve a two-year church mission for the LDS
Church.They also backed a high school student in south Carolina who
(after early morning seminary) brought her book of Mormon to school... the
school told her she couldn't have it at school and that she had to leave it at
home. So what is So “Evil” about the ACLU again??? They
even represented a Mormon Inmate in Louisiana who's warden was "treating" him
differently than the Baptist inmates... and forced the jail to allow him to
practice his religion. Maybe the ACLU hasn’t taken this case
because nobody has brought it to them... You never know until you try... they
can only say no.
Now look who's whining. Do you attend any church at all? If not then you can't
whine. And if so then you aren't listening when you are at church. Having lots
of non LDS friends as taught me a few things. They are always very open with me
about the fact that at their churches they have actual lessons that "Mormon
Bash". We kinda laugh about it and they even think that it's inappropriate of
their church. However, never once heard have I heard any of the LDS church
leaders speak poorly about other religions. Maybe a few church members who have
their OWN views and voice them in a church setting. Which I by the way think is
totally wrong. So until you have actually witnessed this please stop whining.
Mormons are fair game in most venues of life. I'm a Mormon, and have no qualms
about saying so. Have no qualms about being targeted, recipients of hate,
whatever. Who cares? I wear such controversial statements, pronouncements,
etc. with honor. Pour them on!! Doesn’t make me any less of a Mormon or
a person . Doesn’t affect my faith, but to perhaps make it more durable.
The truth and those who strive to find it and adhere to it, have been the
subjects of prejudice since the dawn of civilization.
As a young mother I would not want to bring my kids to a San Diego State game.
I wouldn't want them exposed to the rude comments about our faith. Clean it up
I've often wondered how members of the LDS church who happen to play on teams
that are opponents of BYU feel about the crude, inappropriate comments targeted
at the church and BYU players.
I've watched the behavior of BYU fans and have been embarrased. I don't watch
BYU sports, especially football, because the behavior of the fans is so gross.
Until BYU fans are better hosts, they are in no position to complain about the
way they are treated at other schools.
People say far more offensive things on these very message boards - especially
in the Tribune reader comment sections, which are essentially hate-speech
forums. When will we see action about that?
I emailed The Mtn. Sat. night and voiced my dislike over showing that part of
the student body as much as they did (I am fine with a little sophmoric humor)-
surprised I did get a response Monday- now it claims that staff have been
instructed to show other things next time- I will not hold my breath on that but
remember money does speak (just ask the Supreme Court) and if enough voice their
opinions to those that make money from such things just maybe something will
change- voicing it here will do very little- write them and make your voice
You bring it on yourselves! Example when you chant over-rated at the USC game
Beck's freshman year, then you end up losing the game. Lay low, be cool, don't
be so judgemental..its all good
Blame the media and the production crew. If no one paid them any attention, it
would go away. Same thing happened at the Tulane football game last year. THe
posters of the Green Wave stuedents were in very poor character, yet you saw
more of that on the jumbo screen than the players during the 4th quarter.
Get over it! I work in college athletics (have played against both BYU and SDSU)
for a religious school and I assure you it happens. I also know that it has less
to do with religion and a lot to do with the oppositions fan base using whatever
identifier they can use to taunt with. The fans could care less what you believe
they just know that it is important to you so they attack. Working for a
Christian school I hear all kinds of horrible things it is what it is. By the
way the funniest chant I ever heard was the crowd chanting, "EVOLUTION,
EVOLUTION, EVOLUTION", obviously an attack on the schools non-belief in
We LDS people know there is always going to be opposition. NOTHING of this kind
should change us. On the contrary, it should make us stronger in our faith.
What a clear way to see how the enemy works, he does not rest, and he tries to
hurt us where it hurts the most, in this case our Missionaries who we know are
the Army of God. These people had no idea what entails to be a Missionary, it
is easy to mock them but it is almost impossible for someone from the world to
give two long years to serve our God. I know it is easy to say but we just need
to let it go, the world realizes (just like Sport Illustrated states) who is in
which side. In the end, God always wins our battles. No worries!! Let's live
the true Gospel. They can dress like Jesus Christ if they wish, but that does
not change us a bit.
Another reason why BYU is a pretender in the world of Collge athletics. Schools
all over the country have their own slang terms or certain trash talk they have
for other schools. GET OVER IT! BYU fans are classless too! This article is
lame! "Everyone else is against BYU, It's us vs. the world", attitude. Give me a
break, stop crying and get over it. BYU fans always point the finger, they seem
to figure to never look into the mirror for their own problems. that's just a
problem of living in the bubble.
The Saints were driven out of Missouri and other places in large part because
they behaved all superior and "better than" their neighbors. I'm sure there was
no taunting like in todays sports but BYU fans and athletes (and bloggers)
should remember to keep it sportsmanlike and not get enrolled in the nasty and
name-calling and humiliating and rude and crude and abusive. Cheering on ones
favorite team seems to have taken a nasty, abusive turn lately.
I'm so sick of the if we did it to them card. That only means that they are cry
babies, are you cry babies? Just move on. You can't govern class. It's a fairly
poor reflection on someones name (parents) who would don a racist, sexist,
bigoted, crude slogan. That doesn't mean that that those words or actions can
have any effect on me. Frankly I don't think it's a bad thing to have slobs and
bigots as enemies it only attracts the right kind of people to your side. Fans should also realize that there is very little outside of pure noise
level that effects the game. the 6th man is the noise not the hate speech. oh
So, how exactly should you pronounce Iranian? Eye-ranian isn't the right way?
The white shirts and helmets were funny. The taunts were out of place and over
the line.BYU fans and LDS members must accept the reality that much
of the Christian world considers the faith to be a cult. Even in Utah the
"former LDS" (as opposed to those who believe in the LDS Church but can't live
its principles) consider the faith to be a cult. . . Religious
intolerance is inappropriate -- regardless of what one happens to believe.
SDSU fans are classless and I hate them. I hate them all!
Just go with the flow. Don't make a big deal of it or it will only escalate.
Be proud of who you are and don't make the same mistake.
Apart from that labeling people and using it as an epithet, "Mormon" or
"Catholic" or "Evangelical" instead of Cougar, Irish or Horned Frog is
offensive, the forgotten or ignorant irony is that many Aztecs have been LDS
over the years, both on and off the field of play.Todd Santos was
the NCAA record holder for passing yards in his time, for the SDSU side.I have personally seen many LDS Aztecs at games in San Diego, just as
there are die hard Utes and Cowboys and Cadets who are faithful members of the
Church of Jesus Christ.I attended a USC game where I left wondering
about those who chanted or screamed "Shut up, Mormons" while I explained to my
Trojan fan friend how a USC player had died and they were paying him tribute, or
once the game was decided they yelled "Go home, Mormons!"Do they
realize how many Trojans under Pete Caroll alone have been faithful Latter-Day
Saints, especially Polynesians?I dare anyone to yell a Mormon
epithet (see anti-Semitism) at Rey Maulauga or Stanley Havili or one of dozens
of USC and UCLA LDS athletes over the years.Think about hate.Choose better.
Re: Anonymous 9:45, You said, "If they ever attempt to take away my freedom to
live my religion, (or anyone else's right to live theirs for that matter) that
is where they've crossed a line that is worth getting upset about."Which is the very reason some comments are made about the actions of those
students. In fact, it is the beginnings of their attempt to take away. It
starts with such taunts and gradually with support gathered it progresses to
become a mindless crowd that will take away the freedoms. Isn't it
a form of bullying? And just how do you react to such behavior?It is
precisely because they know that the "Mormons" will not retaliate in kind
(rather only with a few words of concern) that they take such liberties of
I think the best remark I have heard on this subject is "Isn't it amazing that
we got some opponents fans to wear a white shirt and tie to a basketball game?
Who looks foolish here?"
that when directed toward Mormons all kinds of bigotry is okay but the same
behavior toward virtually any other group would have dire consequences. I wonder
what the SDSU rep would have said if his students were denigrating Blacks,
Hispanics, Jews, Muslims, or Catholics? We all know SDSU would have horrified.
But if you think this was bad, wait until BYU plays at TCU. They were awful when
the Utah team played football down there a couple of years ago (yes, Utah).
After hearing all kinds of vicious name calling, one of the players turned to
the crowd and said "I don't know what you are talking about, I am not even
Reminds me of all the uproar over the phrase "that's so gay" or saying "monkey"
when referring to an African American.It is only insulting if you
allow it to be insulting.
Thanks Rock, nice clarification. Too bad such an article has to be written to
explain such an obvious fact.
When it comes to bad behavior by fans, Ute fans are the worst. And there is this
strange animosity by Mormons who go to Utah vs. anything BYU. Very weird,
especially when viewed from out of state where both are still LDS. It seems
Mormons who go to the U just can't leave BYU alone. Some kind of inferiority
complex perhaps for not getting good enough grades and having to live at home
with Mom until you're well into your 20's?? Check your facts, 80% of Utes live
Again the whining Mormon martyrs. Whine whine whine. What do you expect since
you are always shoving your so called religion down peoples' throats. Just
ponder what Mormons really think about other religions and you can see why there
is hostility. Quit whining and grow up!!!
OK, Mr. Both, let's see if you feel the same way if we are cussing out or
heckling your mother or daughter. I am not from or in Utah and I still don't
like either. Parody is fine and we all need a sense of humor, especially about
ourselves, but insults and coarse, offensive language is not covered by "Free
Speech". I am saddened to see that some people think it is OK. It is not
something that builds up our society or makes us stronger.
Until you offend one of those Polynesian Mormons! I've seen 6'6 300lbs Polys
with Afros flowing in the wind, that would calm that student section down with a
... maybe the visiting and local BYU fans should all dress as missionaries and
sister missionaries and stand up and chant back "We're still Mormons" and then
point at the scoreboard!
Elder Wirthlin's mother said it."Live life and love it."
It's great that someone is finally calling SDSU on this behavior. The
missionary attire stunt was used last year and the Aztecs lost to the Cougars on
their home court then, too. SDSU hasn't always been like this, though. I went
to school there before 2000 and there were usually more BYU fans than Aztec fans
when the Cougars came to town, and no "missionaries" in the house.
Your bigotry shows in your comment about the Majority coming from BYU. I guess,
therefore according to your standards, that my experiences based on 50+ years is
that the majority of Utah fans are crude, vulgar and stupid. Now that statement
is almost as ridiculous as yours.Their is a difference between
bigotry and vulgarity and stupidity.
If BYU fans or players screamed at people of the Jewish faith or said they hated
someone...oh wait, we already went down that road. It's OK only when people are
Personally it is no big deal to me. But things like this esculate and may become
an ugly scene. What happens in the future? I don't know but the point is it is
not right.How come the ACLU doesn't get involved?
We are active members too and do not appreciate LDS who cannot take a joke. You
guys need to grow the heck up!!!
but you are offensive. Doesn't sound like you've learned much from your
The blog pretty much summed everything up. Most of it was funny. Some of it
was overly-crude and inappropriate. That happens. What can you do? Not much.
BUT... the home arena staff COULD and SHOULD have done something about it.They didn't. Big surprise.It's just Brad's way of not
letting this go by without somebody speaking out against something that
shouldn't be allowed to slide.
As an active member of the LDS church I'm not offended by any anti mormon
comments. There are a lot of members of the church that make the religion look
bad. The majority of which come from BYU. And plus, as long as I have a
testimony I really don't care what others think.
You really need learn the difference between heckling and bigotry.Religious bigotry is NEVER ok!
Nobody likes a cry baby. Its not going to change, so lets get over it and move
on. It just reinforces the whining that comes out of Provo. Ask Duke and JJ
Reddick if they ever had anything insensitive spewed out towards them. Whether
its race, religion, sexuality, family whatever, they will yell it. It doesn't
matter if its true or not. It won't be going away, so no use crying about it.
Still its sports and they can say what they want to just because the school is
owned by The LDS church does not mean they cant be heckled, when BYU came up to
USU there were chants like that and it was ok because that is what sports is
like is called the 6th man for basketball and the 12th man for football its how
it works. it may be upsetting but what do people expect to see every one talking
polite to each other it never going to happen so if you dont like ignore it, its
not hard, and if you cant do that watch it at home.
obnoxious is one thingreligious bigotry is quite anotherone may be rude, but perfectly legalthe other could be considered
hate speech, and is illegalTurn to any Human Resources handbook in
the country to find out the difference, if you don't already know.In
any case, religious bigotry shouldn't be tolerated by any school, whether at a
sporting event or not.
BYU should continue to take the high road. This sort of thing is not at all new.
It is still highly offensive and I can't believe a University would tolerate
this.On our part, we need to take the high road and be the best fans
in the MWC. BYU fans should be the loudest most supportive fans, but also avoid
derogatory comments. Hopefully the rest of the conference will follow suit.
I thought the missionary outfits were funny. I agree that chants such as were
described are without taste and over the line. Similar behavior regarding
directed at any other religion would not be tolerated. But as one who took the
field against BYU, I will say that some of the most unsportsmanlike and crude
behaviors I ever came across on the football field were perpetrated by BYU
players. Most of the Cougars were good sports but a few really made a negative
impression. My non-LDS teammates certainly took notice of that and I heard about
the "non-Christian behavior of the BYU Mormons" for a long time in the locker
room. As for individual fans - easily the worst and most vulgar were at the
UofU. Much worse than USC, Illinois, Missouri, Oregon or any of the schools we
played at. I know that many of the Aggie faithful can be of the same ilk toward
opponents so a lack of class can be found anywhere. Interestingly, the fans with
the most class in my experience as a player were the fans at Fresno State.
Haters always come out for the best teams and true religions. It is always the
way it is and always the way it will be.
I'm more likely to take my kids to sporting events so I can show them first hand
what kind of idiots not to become.
is uncalled for in any setting, sports or otherwise.Members of the
LDS church are accustomed to it happening, but that still doesn't make it
right.Can you imagine the uproar if BYU's students treated players
from another religion-based school in a similar manner?Turning the
other check is part of religious doctrine, but institutions of high learning are
supposed to police such behavior on their campuses.This type of
behavior would never be tolerated against an ethnic group or other minority.
that other religions aren't attacked as often or as much as mormonism is that
much more proof that the faith is what it says it is and that's why all the
Agree that SDSU fans don't show much class, but having attended a BYU-SDSU game
in the same arena, I can say that BYU's large contingent of fans that show up to
most of their road games can be pretty obnoxious. I've always thought it best
kind of lay low when visiting someone else's house, but local BYU fans tend to
come in large numbers, make a lot of noise and act as if they are the home team.
I for one get pretty annoyed with the Utah fans that come to Provo.
When the fans chanted "You're still Mormon" it was meant as a slant, not as a
compliment. The SDSU fans ridiculed BYU and its fans for being Mormon all game,
and there's a double standard in that. Because it wouldn't be OK to do the same
to any other religion. The university owes BYU an apology.
Not certain why but all bounds of decency and political correctness seem to
evaporate when it involves anything Mormon.In today's more and more
PC world-there are certain groups and organizations that you would not dare to
insult. Think Jews or Catholics or Baptists-no one would dare attempt such
stunts against them. So, exactly why are LDS such easy and desirable targets?Actually the missionary attire at SDSU did not bother me-nor the
polygamy themed half-time show by the Stanford band a few years ago. Most of it
seems to be good-natured and in a friendly spirit, but it is the obvious
harassment at venues in Laramie and Salt Lake that are the most despicable.
There is no friendly vibes at RES or HC nor at WMS in Laramie-only out and out
bigotry against the religion we espouse.All in fun or pure hate and
bigotry? Who knows. Or perhaps as utwingnut suggests we just need to grow a
thicker skin and grin and bear it.In reality those who heckle are
simply looking to push our buttons and get a response. And our best response is
probably to simply smile/wave back.
There are definitely times when lines are crossed. Unfortunately the ACLU
determines which lines are better than others. In this case they would hide
their heads in the sand, because it's deemed "appropriate" by them. The LDS
people do have thick skin from years of getting kicked down and forced to move
from place to place. Not all team members for BYU are LDS, so let's not look at
it from a church school perspective, but rather some LDS members on the team.
Since that's who is playing in the game! If San Diego played a school who had
an Orthodox Jew on the team I'm guessing eyebrows would be raised if fans
attended the game dressed in that attire to taunt the Jewish player. Or if a
player was from another country and they taunted by wearing derogatory garb.
ACLU...I would have no problems with you if you would just stand up for the
civil liberties of ALL Americans.
It is over the line, but people make so little of it because we do have thick
Both over the line, and we need a thicker skin. The world is so concerned with
being politically correct these days, making it cross that line in a big way.
However, on the other hand, lighten up. It's sports. Heckling happens, and not
everyone thinks that cussing is all that bad, even if people in Utah do.
It was awesome. San Diego State rocks.
Rock is right on in this case. If they dressed up in traditional Jewish attire
and yelled things about those of the Jewish faith they would have instantly been
reprimanded and removed with the University's apologies. If they had been
totting crosses and dressing like priests and nuns when the University of Notre
Dame was in town, likewise, they would have been dealt with appropriately. Some how bigotry doesn't apply when its the Mormons, because silently a
lot of people agreed with how they were treating the religion of their opponent;
its just freedom of speech. Not that I'm surprised though; find me
any other religious group that has been more reviled against than the good
people of the LDS church.
ought to bring out the bitter mormon haters in full force.
"kind of feel like a double standard"? This is absolutely a double standard.
People get away with religious bigotry and intolerance directed at the Mormon
faith regularly, and no one seems to notice or care. To the contrary, it seems
to be encouraged.
utwingnut, the lack of civility alone is one thing, but these guys took it to a
VERY unfriendly family level. I'm no BYU fan, but I am LDS, and behavior at a
BASKETBALL game that revolves around insulting someone's religion is flat out
sick and improper.I am never taking my kids to a sporting event
because adults don't know how to act like adults at these things.
The SDSU missionary taunt is done year after year...not very original but still
I can laugh at the "missionaries," but yes I do have a problem with the
hypocrite Mormon bashers. If byu fans ever dressed up like nuns and priests if
Notre Dame came to down, can you imagine the uproar from the entire nation. For
some reason it wouldnt be ok then, but now it is....?
Not for what he wrote, but ranking BYU No. 23 this week--dropping them six spots
from where he had them this week. If anything, BYU fans should be upset at the
Aztecs for being so horrible that a win over San Diego State is considered a
reason to be dropped six spots in the poll by an AP voter.
I totally agree with this but I think this example isnt too bad. I didnt see it
but it sounds funny even though i also recently returned from a mission, but
there certainly are times when it goes way over the line. And some of the worst
is on message boards like this where writers cannot be disciplined for what they
say and they dont have to actually stand up for it.
Is all that needs to be said!!!!! Next -- I believe that would be NM. Go Cougs!!
I consider myself a thick-skinned Latter-day Saint. I live and work in San
Diego and have attended several BYU/SDSU basketball games. This is no new
occurrence: the SDSU frat-boys don the missionary gear every year. I always
have a good chuckle as it seems the most obese and poorly groomed kids, who
obviously haven't seen more cardio than the trek from their dad's Camaro to the
order table at In-n-Out, are the ones wearing the bike helmets. Ridiculing of
"The Mormons" has gotten way out of hand, however. My gripe is with the
students wearing derogatory shirts referring to the church as a cult and other
classless and profane paraphernalia. I, personally, have no problem with the
missionary attire-anything that can get those boys in a suit and tie can't be
that bad-eh? I do draw the line with the profane and derogatory statements
about my faith.
Great Post it is amazing that BYU fan's and Mormons put up with this. It builds
anti Mormon sentiment, and makes it that much harder for our young missionaries
to gain any respect. If we would stand up, and all complain SDSU would stop
this type of bigotry. It seems so innocent and good fun for some, but it goes so
much deeper.SDSU! SHOULD KEEP RELIGION OUT OF IT.!!!
The missionary thing, if not coupled with the rest of the anti-mormon antics,
could slip by as kind of funny. But why did the TV coverage keep going back to
this group of fans? Does anyone really think that the TV guys don't understand
the anti-mormon sentiment towards BYU? The MWC turns a blind eye to this and
really has no interest in stopping it at all. Talk to players and coaches of the
other BYU sports and the stories are the same, even worse. The MWC conference
does not like or respect BYU in spite of their carrying the water for the
conference in most sports. Let's get out of the MWC. If we are going to take all
the abuse, at least let's do it in the PAC 10 or independently where we will get
more money and better media coverage. I trust Coach Rose was sincere
in his post-game comments about the great fans and environment in San Diego. And
I accept the SDSU AD's perception that it only represents a small number of
their fans. But how about an apology from the production crew at The Mtn?
Like John Rocker, the San Diego State student body should undergo sensitive
training. But, on the bright side, I learned that San Diego State has a
basketball team. And now they're back to being completely irrelevant.
I don't mind one bit if someone chants: "You're still a Mormon." My response to
that is... yup, last time I checked. And I like it that way which is why I
chose to follow the religion.I wish people all over the world would
just settle down and realize that you don't have to up and start a holy war over
silly things that people do without thinking.If they ever attempt to
take away my freedom to live my religion, (or anyone else's right to live theirs
for that matter) that is where they've crossed a line that is worth getting
For once I hope a Rock article gets picked up by the wires...The
"Missionary" costumes... funny and appropriate.The chants of "You're
still Mormon..." uncalled for and completely out of line.But,
welcome to sports where we seems to get the worst out of everyone.
We all know and see the double standard toward mormons. Too bad they get away
with it over and over.
Sometimes the best revenge against childish and insulting taunts, is winning the
game.I bet those Sand Diego State fans weren't cheering after BYU
beat their team.
BYU is not going to be offended by these actions any more than I would if some
kid yelled at me "that 2010 tundra truck of yours is a stupid truck." I know
Is this really over the line or do we need to get thicker skin? I'd rather not
have my beliefs attacked in such a way but I still understand that I can walk
away. However, this does kind of feel like a double standard.