From the numbers I have seen. Across the nation white males and white females
go to school at a similar %. Minority women do go to college and minority
men don't. Utah is lilly white. On a related side note. It
is actually ironic that title IX is meant to prevent gender discrimination with
college scolarships. It essentially says that because 57% of students are
female and 43% are male, then 57% of athletic scholarships go to females and 43%
go to males.The thing is, athletic scholarships are one way minority
men go to school. So title IX doesn't stop discrimination, it just moves the
discrimination to minority men. Ironic that now the discrimination isn't just
about gender, title IX made sure race was involved too.
"In Utah, about 49 percent of enrolled college students are women, as opposed to
57 percent across the country"Reporter bias aside - this article
could easily have reported that "U.S. men underrepresented at colleges". It all depends on your point of view.
Gender stereotypes aside, there is a significant disparity between men and
women's numbers in science classes. Weber State's engineering program, for
example, has less than a dozen women declared as majors; a contrast to the
nearly 100 men in the program. Now, while there is an arguable evolutionary
basis for the theories of difference between gendered behavioral and cognitive
processes, that does not seem to be enough to account for this significant
differential. The social and cultural environments may account for
some of this phenomenon. While my own background was very supportive of both
the sciences and humanities, I question whether that is the case for most
people. Is our culture more supportive of men in the sciences and women in the
arts and humanities? If so, it is a disservice to BOTH genders. I do not like
that it seems to be so, but my own observations, and the data I have, lead me to
conclude that there is much work to be done before we are looking at an
"While typical male "passion" might be for buying parts from radio shack to see
what they can slap together, many of my fellow women engineers are extremely
passionate about actually solving problems in the world, which is why we entered
the field in the first place".____________Okay and this is all
well and good. Men and women have different motivations, different passions, but
both contribute to the world, in their different ways.As the French
say .. "viva la diference"
I am a former student of Dr. Madsen who is one of the greatest educators in the
state. Having worked with Dr. Madsen I can say without reservation that her
research and findings are above reproach. I've attended four universities in my
educational endeavors and have never found a more honest, ethical, and unbiased
professor, and that includes my graduate school professors as well.Dr.
Madsen is sincerely driven by nothing more than a desire to help others acheive
greater satisfaction in their lives. She is not a feminist as many comments on
this board have tried to portray her. I have been in her office and have
witnessed the care put into her research, the unbiased lengths she goes to in an
effort ensure fairness in her grading, and also the time taken to console one of
her children who had a bad day at school.Whether or not a woman plans to
pursue a career outside the home or pursue the most important of all careers,
that of a mother; a four year education can assist and lead to a more full life
for a woman and her family.
I'm surprised at the knee-jerk reaction that many people are having to this
article. It has nothing to do with women choosing certain majors over others,
nor is it about men bashing, nor is it saying that women should leave the
important roles of mother and homemaker. The study being conducted is simply
trying to assist women in Utah to understand how their post secondary education
can help them in life, regardless of whether or not they choose a career or
remain in the home.I discovered during my studies at UVU, BYU, and SUU,
that many young women in Utah seem to regard college as a place to simply find a
husband. When they get married they drop out of school. My own wife had that
same attitude. While my wife possesses two assosciate degrees, one in early
childhood development and another in general studies, trying to get her to
finish her bachelors has been difficult. She is a perfect wife and mother and my
children and I are extremely blessed to have her. The addition of a bachelors
degree would bless our family even more. Even though she is a stay at home
women in utah are more likely to get pregnant not once but multiple times--
making it more difficult to go to school since they qickly become caregivers at
a younger age.
Why worry about the sex ratio? If some in the legislature get their way, we may
all be restricted from attending university, (except those in Utah).Seems Senator Buttars is introducing a bill to make it so kids only get to go
to 11th grade in Utah public schools. If the bill becomes law, Utahs may not
have much opportunity to go to any out of state schools.Utah's will
be dummer. It not an attack on men or women, but on men and women, on all of
re: women make fine:To those of you saying that women engineers are
not as "passionate" as their male counterparts, I beg to differ (again). While
typical male "passion" might be for buying parts from radio shack to see what
they can slap together, many of my fellow women engineers are extremely
passionate about actually solving problems in the world, which is why we entered
the field in the first place. I decided I wanted to actually fix problems
instead of whining about them. That too, is passion, and is due of respect as
colleagues in the field of engineering from our male counterparts.
This article brings a quote from Lincoln to mind."You can fool some
of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time,
but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".I guess this
is one of those times where all the people couldn't be fooled. Utah actually has
a closer sex ratio than the rest of the nation.
I am just wondering, why did you go into engineering?Where you a
bright student so your counselor steered you to take engineering?When you were in high school, did you choose to associate with a group of
friends who talked about Star Trek, mathematical induction? What makes computers
work? Did you have friends who went to radio shack bought parts and built kits
with their own money and it was their own idea?If not thats okay,
but this is a geeks way of life. No girls of whom I am aware of personally
are/were geeks.There are women in history who were, Marie Curie for
example.Not that women can't be geeks, but there are far fewer, and
it is the geeks who built the subject of engineering in the first place, and it
is the geeks who went into the field before educators started steering students
to take this or that field.It is the geeks who have made the
scientific discoveries throughout history.I could be an interior
designer if I chose to be, but I could never be passionate about the subject. I
don't like watching sports either. I am an engineer.
Every comment here, and the article itself is missing the point! The REAL bias
in UT isn't against a certain sex, but against anyone from a lower SES! I worked
myself to the bone (I am female) to complete 1 degree--with government help,
thank you! I then worked myself to the bone to finish another...just to be able
to afford to live in UT...which in the end I chose to leave because the cost of
living is so out of whack compared to what people bring home. One of the MAIN
reasons that people are not going to college in UT is because of the cost of
tuition compared to what they bring home and the assistance the state doesn't
give! My own sister has had to drop out of a UT college because the Board of
Regents, with their infinite wisdom, determined that she had too many credits
(even though the univ. still requires 2 more years from her) to get the in state
tuition rates! Talk about bias! She, like me, has fled the insane state of
UT...to another state where hopefully they'll care more about their students!
If the reporter thinks women are lacking in the higher education, she should
notice the lack of diversity among women in college.
Nice try: "...Every woman stood to say she was there for a hubby..." CLEARLY a
troll who is playing to ridiculous stereotypes to get the unwary all worked up.
Don't bite. Troll: Take a hike.
@ Woman Make Fine Engineers But:As a young woman pursuing a master's
degree in engineering (at Utah State), I can tell you that the women that I know
in engineering are just as passionate, if not more so than the men.
Feminist better get on this they can't have more men in college than women, even
if its a really small amount. All men need to know how horrible they are.
If I didn't follow the council of prophets, I would be struggling big time now.
I got an education before getting married. Unfortunately, marriage went down the
hill and thanks to my degree I don't have to be begging some child support to my
kid's irresponsible good for nothing dad. Thanks to my degree, my kids and I can
live with dignity and have what we need. I encourage all women to get an
education. It's your life vest!
As a woman engineer, I went into the field, because I LOVED the subject matter.
Women engineers maybe less geeky as the guys (not all though), but there is
still the passion and drive.I also agree with GAG, I graduated with
my MS in engineering and it makes me stomach turn to read that a girl thinks she
was raised to be better suited for humanities. Our state/culture needs to
realize that women are just as capable as men to excel in math and sciences. We
need to stop discouraging our girls from excelling. I don't know how many times
I was told, "girls don't like math" when I was in elementary school. Luckily I
had enough sense to say, "I do and I am a girl"
Edit: the article says 49% of Utah's (not UVU's) students are women. UVU's
ratio is lower (44%). So, Utah as a whole is fine vis-a-vis its 18-24 female
population. UVU should be seeking to know the gender mix of its constituent
base and, if 44% is below that, why Utah's women are avoiding UVU to go
elsewhere in the state.
I am a woman with a BA and MA and a gape-opened mouth about this ridiculous
article. I'm far more concerned as to why the rate of MEN getting an education
is slipping nation-wide. Don't they deserved all the 'benefits' cited in this
article that supposedly women receive?Madsen says that apparently
women don't recognize the benefits of education. Are you SERIOUS?! Find me ONE
person who thinks education isn't beneficial. The issue of who goes to college
and who doesn't is FAR, FAR more complex. Not everyone enjoys or appreciates the
college experience. This study has grossly oversimplified the question and now
is wanting to waste more money to support a bias.Lastly, the study
says there is a 'dearth' of women in college. 'Dearth' means 'scarcity.' If the
authors of this study can't even use that word right, what else have they
misconstrued and misrepresented?! Ridiculous.
Enrollment in Universities by men should start to increase now that the
educational benefits by the military are so good.Its about time we
"support our troups" by deed, not just waving the flag and saying empty slogans.
Another thought its that many of the majors that were dominated by women ie:
fashion design, fashion merchandising, home economics, clothing and textiles,
and interior design have been dropped from the Utah universities. They have to
go elsewhere to train in those areas.
Mr. Good, you think that there is no point in educating women? What happens
when the men, that are suppossed to provide for the family and uphold their
preisthood do otherwise? I know so many women that are now destitute because
their so called husband made other choices. They have no choice but to use
welfare and work medial, low paying jobs, leaving them little or no time to
spend with the children that need them. It is possible to work, be married, and
raise children. Maybe the you men should be a little more supportive and
encourage the women to finish their education and, if needs be, use it when time
gets tough, and one it will. I am a mother of 6 boys. I am raising them
to be good to women, to take their repsonsibility as huband, father, and
patriarch of the home seriously. Both my husband and I are in school so that we
can increase out income to help them get through school and missions. And, for
your information, I am the provider for my family. So, those precious tax
dollars you mentioned above, were not wasted now were they?
"So women stay at home and stop wasting my taxes since you're only going to get
married and never use your education".____________________________________Huh? What cave did you crawl
out of? Women shouldn't get educated just because their goal is to get married?
and perhaps not enter the workforce?I don't agree with everything
Brigham Young said, but he was spot on with what he had to say about womens
education. (I got this from the Journal of Discourses).Brigham Young
believed it is very important for women to get an education because they are the
ones who will be raising the kids, and smart mothers tend to raise smart
kids.I would add to this, that women deserve to be educated for
their own sake, regardless of whether they work outside the home. Education
raises the quality of life.Socialized education is one of the
smartest things our society has done. Now everyone can get an education, not
just the children of the well to do. We are a richer society as a result of this
socialism. Both materially, and as individuals.
should be given to all the moms in Utah. They are the ones building our nation.
they are the ones securing our future.
The previous poster's comments make complete sense. What you need to look at is
the BASE or the total college-age population in Utah.The fact is...
the US Census dept says that women make up 49% of all Utahns 18-24 years old. In
this light, the 49% of UVU's students who are women is entirely balanced given
our population (assuming 18-24 as the relevant "college-age" base). Make sense
to you now?However, this sad, mysandrist article takes the reverse
stand and compares the 49% from Utah against the 57% national figure and laments
the lower number! HELLO! Sheeple, the 49% is fine. It's the 57% figure that's
the problem! The darn article completely overlooks the national trend that is
pushing men away from college. Instead, the story is about a study to
"understand how to better encourage more women into college" and it laments "the
dearth of female college students". This may have been true 30 years ago. But
people are now being fed a party line and agenda that completely violates the
facts. Come on author Wendy Leonard. Use your college education and critical
I agree with you both.The real imbalance exists nationwide with a
57% female college enrollment rate. If we want to spend money on
something, it should be to find out why more men nationwide are not enrolling in
college.Utah, at 49% female enrollment (51% male), is actually
closer to the ideal if we want direct proportionality to the population in
Modern educators have been struggling to try to interest girls in the hard
sciences for a few decades now, but they haven't had much luck.I
went to Utah State University and majored in Electrical Enginering, graduated in
1995. There were a few girls taking engineering but not many. The girls that
were in our classes were intelligent and on average got better on tests than
most all of the guys.However there was a difference. The guys that
were taking engineering were mostly geeks, not socially inept, but they loved
the subject. During mealtimes our discussions centered on exciting engineering
or math or physics topics. Not so with the women. They seemed to be taking
engineering "just because" they had to choose some subject so they chose
engineering. Yet they were quick studies and did real well so far as
understanding the concepts and getting good grades.Women make fine
engineers. Give them a task and they can do it. But their excitement level of
the subject doesn't rise to the level of the mens.If anyone wonders
why most discoveries in the hard sciences is by men, its beacuse discoveries are
made by people with passion.
There is no point in educating in Utah anyway. They all should all be at home
and not in the workforce so there is no point in wasting my tax dollars on them.
At BYU, I remember that my bishop asked the whole ward how many of us were there
to just get married. Almost every woman stood up and agreed that's why they
were. i know BYU doesn't take tax dollars, but I bet women at all universities
in Utah this is true of women. So women stay at home and stop wasting my
taxes since you're only going to get married and never use your education.
Read me to see the Church's stance on this issue.
49% to 51% sounds about as equal as you could possibly get.
You are citing an exception to the rule, and using this to claim the rule is not
valid.Even when I went to high school, most boys who took an extra
science took physics and most girls took biology. This seems to be pretty much
the norm, even today.Don't most rules have exceptions?Your logic is flawed, what "Hard Science" did you earn a Ph.D. in anyway?
The psychology of men and women is different. Examples: At young ages, before
anyone tells them what to like, boys play agressively, like to play soldier, or
cowboys and indians, while girls prefer to play house and with dolls. Women are
attracted to men, men are attracted to women.Why do we suppose that
women have to be interested in the same kinds of subjects as men? To me given
all the other differences in men and women, it would be surprising that this is
so.Yet modern educators beat their "heads against the wall" trying
to interest women in subjects they just aren't interested in. Physics vs Biology
for example.I like a society where all students are given all the
opportunities, and are encouraged to pursue their interests what ever they may
be.We don't need to be disapointed if the boys and girls like
different subjects.I tutor all my kids in mathematics. I find the
math education offered in the schools isn't up to my standards.My
girl gets the same tutoring as my boys. Yet I will not try to push any of them
into going into engineering, or interior design.
As a statistician, I can say that the analysis is either flawed, showing bias,
or the article is far from complete. One would consider,however, that the
distribution between male and female attendees should be similar to the
distribution of males and females in the general population. At typical college
age, that would be about 49% women and 51% men. That would lead to the question
of why men generally in the US are not attending college as much as women. Are
we failing our boys or is it just a normal fluctuation?
We need wives and moms at home where they should be.
According to the article, 49% of enrolled college students in Utah are women.
That is practically equal to male enrollment and close to ideal. Why would we
want to be more like those states that have a serious problem with too few men
relative to women attending college? Perhaps the article should be written with
less of a gender perspective and more about getting young people (women and men)
to attend college.
"Perhaps culturally, women are better prepared to handle courses offered in the
humanities" She has got to be kidding... as a woman with a Ph.D. earned 28
years ago in a "hard science", I cannot believe there are still 20something
women around with such a backwards attitude. Parents, help your children get a
degree that will enable them to earn a living, regardless of gender. who pays
someone with a degree in gender studies?
Are you for real? "That total is always 100% regardless of the breakdown of men
and women" Nice work sherlock! Of course it totals 100%!The point
is Utah is different. More men (proportionally) attend college. Yeah, that's
the question and the mystery...but why? What is it about Utah that makes it
different? Are women starting and dropping out? If so, why? Why would men in
Utah be more likely to attend and complete college (versus other states). Yor post makes no sense.
I would be interested to see the statistics on the gender demographic of college
enrollment over the last 10 years for Utah and the rest of the U.S..
Historicizing the information would give us a better grasp of whether this
enrollment level is typical.Also enrollment does not equate to
graduation, how does the gender demographic of enrollment compare to the gender
demographic of graduating classes?
Did we really spend tax dollars on this study? Shouldn't we be glad that we have
nearly an equal percentage of men and women within the state that are college
educated? Shouldn't we work toward making sure more people in general (both men
and women) get higher education? Maybe something is going right in the state
when equal numbers of men and women see the benefit of a college education.
Maybe there is a problem in the rest of the nation with men not seeing the
benefit of college that Utah men see.
The analysis is flawed. You can not simply look at a percentage of current
attendees. That total is always 100% regardless of the breakdown of men and
women and it really does not tell you what is going on really or the real
issue. What you have to explore is how many college age men and
women are attending college vs not. It might just be that more men in Utah go
to college versus other states, and have nothing to do with the women at all.
As the percentage is only a percentage of the total number of students
attending. This data needs another scrub and presented more
accurately in the correct context.
Maybe all the Utah women are leaving the state because they don't like the
animosity between the state and private school.Or, maybe Utah men are more
likely to go to college in Utah than in other states.Or, any number of
reasons. We don't know. It sounds like they don't know. So, they pick a
reason that will be in their best interest, funding for female education in
Utah to educate them about those bad men?Who knows, but follow the money!
Why is the 57% female-enrollment rate of the rest of the nation considered
normal? It seems that an alternative question that should at least be addressed
is how likely men and women are to attend college.Having the
enrollments close to 50% each would seem to be ideal, so long as the rate of
individuals getting higher education remains high. This data is not provided in
the article, so any discussion about bias is itself biased. (It may be true,
just there is no support within the article.)
"more guys walking around on the other side of campus...hard sciences"I am
the proud mother of a daughter at a Utah University that is majoring in the
"hard science" field. There is only one other woman student in her department.
I wonder why there are not more women there, when the job reports always
indicate that Engineers are needed and the post graduation pay is high. There
are scholarships and grants available to men and women in this field. This area
of study takes a lot of math courses. I encourage other Moms to let your
daughters see the opportunities in these "hard science" fields.