KidThe stories that William T. Phillips told his family and friends
concerning his birth and early life in Michigan, through diligent research, have
all been confirmed with much more accuracy than the wild stories he told of
Butch Cassidy's exploits. Much more important than his death cert. is his
marriage record which gives his actual age. There are more records of interest
than just his Elks and Masonic lodge membership applications and his death
cert., and those records confirm his stories of his birth, ancestry, parents,
and growing up. His story "The Bandit Invincible," excluding the
Cassidy portions confirms what has been learned of his life story after he ran
away from home. The proof though is not in proving who Phillips was,
only in proving that he was not Robert Leroy Parker. There is reliable evidence,
including Jim Regan, and others that said that the two men were separate and not
the same person.
GTBIm not following the logic here, your assuming William T. Phillips was
William T. Phillips (b) 1865 Michigan, father L. J. Phillips, mother Cecelia
Mudge, married Gertrude Livesay case closed. If Robert Leroy Parker, who was
known to have at least a dozen aliases became William Thadeus Phillips in 1908,
then I would not expect him to say I was born in 1866, at Beaver, Utah, the son
of Maximillian Parker and Annie Gillies. Its reasonable to assume Gertrude
Livesay, who grew up in Morenci, Lenawee County, Michigan, knew Ceclia Mudge
Snell. Gertrude, therefore could have provided Parker with the necessary
information for his new identity as William Thadeus Phillips. Im not
understanding why based on an Elks membership and his death certificate you
concluded he was the son of Samuel Latta Phillips and Celia Mudge. It seems to
me the solution to solving this mystery, prove that William T. Phillips was the
illegitimate son of L. J. Phillips and Cecelia Mudge. The proof if any exists,
is in Michigan, where he was supposedly born in 1865.
This board has been quiet for much too long. I guess the Deseret News'
Neanderthal posting policies have squashed all discussions like this. Dora Lamoreaux claimed that she only went riding with Butch once and that was
it. maybe we should all go over to that face page to discuss
Cassidy, Long and others. I understand there is a Cassidy page over there.
Maybe Charlene is referring to Dora Lamoreaux who also was one of the indian
girls that butch "took for rides" . She married John David Dollard brother of
murderer James Dollard . He killed Frank Bryant. She later married 2nd to
Robertson.The sad fact is that the ranchers kept their daughters
away from any of the cowboys. Most were sent to Catholic schools in Billings and
Cheyenne. The only girls available to the cowboys were the indians. These girls
were treated badly by most accounts and almost none married any of the
cowboys.However there are exceptions. William (Billy or Curly )
Harris did marry a Shoshone girl. He was Butch's point man and was in on several
of the robberies. He was reported dead in the papers after one robbery but that
was not true. He lived a long and fruitful life and left many descendants here
in WY.I have some family info on his time with Butch. If anyone is interrested
let me know. Charlene one way to find out for sure is to do a DNA on
your nephew or any of the males in that line and see if they match up with the
Bob, Butch met with Simpson out by Burnaughs (near Muddy Ck) where he stayed
many times with the gang after a chase or robbery. Then he went over Mexican
Pass to Thermopolis a few days later and was spending Gold Coins at the bar ,
not paper money .One of the gang was wounded and died and is buried at Burnaughs
cemetery. This is on the Rez today but cemetery is still there. Agnes Stagner
(dau of Speed Stagner) was Burnaugh's wife. Speed if you remember was one that
was a witness in court against Butch at his trial.
Sly:"Boyd believes he heard the man say his name was Phillips" "In Search
of Butch Cassidy" page 240. I said: "Boyd Charter, Bert's son recollection was
that the man said his name was Phillips." No one knows how many
desperadoes participated in the Wilcox train robbery. The contemporary newspaper
accounts, as you cited, vary from 3 to 6. It is not even known who all of the
participants were. Six sounds closer to me because of the complexity of the
robbery. Some say Butch participated, others say he helped plan it,
but did not participate. Butch apparently ran into Will Simpson a
few days after the robbery. Will accused Cassidy of breaking his promise to not
commit any more crimes in Wyoming. Cassidy defended his innocence to Simpson and
claimed he was not there. However shortly afterward bank notes from the robbery
started showing up in places that Cassidy had been through. Another trail of
bank "Wilcox" bank notes led down through Utah, and into New Mexico, and
eventually East ending up in Arkansas along the Mississippi River.
Charlene: Are you talking about Mary Boyd, the daughter of William Boyd and
Louisa Lajuenesse who had a daughter named Mary born ca. 1892 out of wedlock.
Mary Boyd later married Oliver Edward Rhodes in 1895?
My daughter and I believe that Butch Cassidy is my Grandpa. My grandmother was
in the same area where Butch Cassidy was working and ended up pregnant. She
couldn't have gotten married because Butch was put in jail. They married her
off to a man 20 years older than she was. My dad was her favorite and he
treated his mom just like we had read about how Butch treated his mom. The
picture of my nephew looks exactly like Butch and he laughed like the way Butch
supposedly laughed. I am 78 years old and would love to be able to get in touch
with some of Butch Cassidy's family. I want nothing more than to be able to
know my grandmother was in love with Butch and was just unable to get married.
GTBWere there three or six bandits at Wilcox? Did Boyd Charter say the man
said his name was Phillips?RAWLINS REPUBLICAN, RAWLINS, CARBON
COUNTY, WYOMING, SATURDAY JUNE 3, 1899. Front Page Col., 1, 2 No. 1 HELD UP BY
SIX MASKED BANDITSRAWLINS REPUBLICAN, RAWLINS, CARBON COUNTY,
WYOMING, SATURDAY JUNE 17, 1899. Front Page Col., 3, 4“The only
trail found leaving the vicinity of the hold up was one made by three horses
which crossed Rock creek about a mile north of Wilcox. This they followed about
six miles and lost it. The posse then concluded that the robbers would make for
the Hole-in-the-Wall country and would no doubt cross the Platte river at
Casper.”"In Search of Butch Cassidy" page 240. Based on
Pointer's interview with Boyd Charter in 1973. “Boyd believes he
heard the man say his name was Phillips”
Let's not get too carried away with this $20 bill story. True or not, what does
it prove? The May 5, 1939, William L. Simpson letter, three & 1/2
single-spaced typewritten pages is full of observations, corrections, and
anecdotes, including "I am confident that Butch Cassidy died in South America by
a bullet from his own hand." That confidence is based on stories told him by
others. Grist for the mill.The $20 bill: he said he saw the bill
in Laramie City, but how would he have known where it came from, Wilcox or
Katmandu? Was it labelled, "official Wilcox $20 bill"? And if it did come from
Wilcox, so what?
use the mountainmama then put 42 then at bresnan.com
I am offering my 22 years research and documented work in Wyoming on Butch and
his involvement in the cattle wars , and so much more. I will be putting it out
on several venues if any of you are interrested. I have cancer now and not a
whole lot of time. I am hoping all this I have will not get buried again for
another hundred years. If anyone wants to write me please do.
Not BillRawlins Republican December 24, 1897Bert Charters and
Arthur Blackmore will leave m a few days for Grand Junction, Colo., where they
will spend the winter. They will go to the Klondyke in the spring.
The Idea that Bert Charter was involved some way in the Wilcox robbery is just
supposition. No one actually involved in that robbery ever said that Bert was
also involved, either in the planning or support. However, Bert did know those
who were. That Bert came up with one of the $20.00 bills from the Wilcox robbery
is not surprising whether he participated or not.As for the Phillips
1924 Summer trip to Charter's Spring Gulch Ranch, Boyd Charter, Bert's son
recollection was that the man said his name was Phillips. See Pointer: "In
Search of Butch Cassidy" page 240. Based on Pointer's interview with Boyd
Charter in 1973.
Thanks Bill. Funny Bert went to Alaska same time (abt 1897) as Price who
in 1894 killed Butch's partners just before Butch's trial..
The Wilcox Train Robbery June 2, 1899Craig Currier Saturday June 03,
1899Bert Charters, formerly of this place, visited Craig friends this
week. Bert went to Klondike last fall. He was at Dawson City several weeks,
leaving there on February 25th and arriving in Baggs about a month ago. He says
the country is greatly overrated and that Routt county's placer gold field is
about as good as the average run of deposits in the frozen country. There are
some very rich deposits in the Klondike, however, but they are not sufficiently
numerous to justify the boom which he says was promoted by the steamship
companies. Bert is now engaged in the saloon business at Baggs with John Wilkes.
No doubt Bert Charter played a key role in the Wilcox robbery, but
unlikely he physically participated in the actual robbery.
Mountainmama,My post had nothing to do with Simpson; it was in
reference to Sly Parker's question about sources for the alleged mid-1920s
In Simpsons letter dated May 5. 1939 which was 39 years later ,not 50, he states
that the $20.00 bill was from the WILCOX robbery not the Winnemucca bank
robbery. That bill was pasted on the card and in Laramie City. And the owner of
it having recently died. This is why I think it was Bert Charter because he had
just died a few months earlier in Feb 1939. The point he was trying to make was
that Butch was not involved in the Wilcox robbery.But also that Butch had
gold coins taken from the Thermop to Casper stage robbery which he did with
Curly Harris at the same time someone was pulling off the Wilcox. This meeting
was at Burnaugh's . .Butch told Simpson at a meeting on Muddy Ck that he did
not do it. Curly also died in 1938/39 .
Sly Parker,I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with
anything, since Phillips was an impostor, but some of the details of and sources
for the stories that Phillips/Cassidy was in Wyoming in the mid-1920s are in
Pointer's IN SEARCH OF, pp. 240-41: anecdotes of Phillips' presence in Wyoming
in 1922, 1924, and 1925, based on interviews with old-timers some 50 years after
the fact. I wouldn't hold any of the old-timers precisely to which year the
visits happened or to any other detail. Fifty years is a long time to remember
anything.In these old-timer accounts the visitor is Phillips,
Cassidy, or a mysterious stranger, though as Pointer tells it, they are all part
of the Phillips saga.
Pinkerton Files: This history
prepared by the Denver Agency under the supervision of Frank Murray, Asst. Supt.
Harry Longabaugh, alias Harry Alonzo, alias Frank Jones, alias Frank Boyd,
Train & Bank Robber. "His particular friends are Jim Ferguson, Palisades,
Colorado, John P. Ryan and Bert Charters of Rawlins, Wyoming. It is said that
Charters furnished funds to Longabaugh and Butch Cassidy to go to Nevada to rob
the Winnemucca bank." Longabaugh is well known along the Snake River, Wyoming,
Baggs and Dixon, Wyoming, by Al Reader, Robert McIntosh, Slater Post Office,
Colorado, and by Charles Ayers and others at Dixon, Wyoming. Mr. Charles Kelly1349 South 5th StreetSalt Lake City, UtahDear Mr. Kelly:“Within the last year I have seen a twenty dollar
bill pasted on card board, a part of this robbery, and this is in Laramie City,
Wyoming, the owner of which having recently died, but it is still
available.” Yours truly,Wm. L. Simpson GTBLets see some documentation that supports your claim that it was William T.
Phillips, in 1924?
Wyoming .I assume you are Colin. But I agree with all you just said above.
I have not commented for a long time about what is going on with this blog. A
couple of comments are appropriate at this point. 1. Everything that William
Simpson said were not always true. 2. There is precious little evidence that
the two men involved in the Amamayo-Franke robbery and buried in San Vicente,
Bolivia were Butch and Sundance!
Bob and Sly. Thank you so much for your answers to my queery. Glad to see facts
for a change. Now have either of you seen or heard of the $20.00 bill from the
Wilcox robbery supposedly in Laramie in 1939 ? Simpson wrote of this in his
letter to Kelly in May 1939. But he said the donar had recently died and was in
on the robbery. This leads me to believe that it was Bert Charter who died Feb
1939.Simpson seems to have gotten a lot of info from Bert. But also
the Nev Senator Nixon who was the clerk at the Winnemucca bank supposedly met
with the robber of the bank in 1918 in Nev according to Simpson. That can't be
as Nixon died in 1912. Again thanks for your replies.
Pinedale Roundup October 28, 1909 P-6 Mrs. Fannie Burch has disposed of
her ranch near town, (New Fork Creek) to Messrs. Jebens and Charter formerly of
Baggs, Wyo. The Pinedale Roundup, November 2, 1916Charters
Ranch SoldA deal was consummated today whereby Bert Charters disposed of
his ranching interests on the Newfork to Jas. McLaughlin. The deal includes the
cattle also. Four hundred acres of land and in the neighborhood of 150 head of
cattle were involved in the transfer. We understand the price for the land was
$27.50 per acre and $60.00 per head for the grown stock from yearlings up and
$30.00 for calves. Mr. and Mrs. Charter expect to leave next week by team for
the Jackson Hole section, with a view of looking over the section for a location
and may go on further west.The Pinedale Roundup, November 13,
1930Mr. and Mrs. Bert Charter their son Boyd and a grand daughter were
visitors in Pinedale Thursday of last week from their home in Jackson Hole The
Charter family were formerly for many years residents of this vicinity While
here they were callers at the V E “Vent” Faler home.
Spring Gulch Ranch:The Pinedale Roundup, December 14, 1916, Pinedale,
WyomingMr. W. P. Redmond last week sold his ranch of 560 acres in Spring
Gulch to Bert Charter, who recently came here from Pinedale. This was considered
one of the best improved ranches in Jackson’s Hole and immediately caught
the eye Mr. Charter, who was looking for a location near town. Mr. Redmond
retains his cattle and will probably give his attention to improving his ranch
property on Crystal creek----- Jackson Courier.William Preston
Redmond was the brother-in-law of William Lee Simpson.Maude Charter sold
the ranch to Cliff Hansen.
Bert Charter bought a ranch at Pinedale in 1909 and stayed there until 1916 when
he sold out and moved to Jackson Hole where he bought the Spring Gulch Ranch
from W.P. Redmond. Walt Punteney did not move to Pinedale until 1921, long
after Bert Charter had moved to Jackson.It was while Bert Charter was
living in Jackson Hole on the Spring Gulch Ranch that William T. Phillips in
1924 came driving up in his Model T posing as Butch Cassidy, asking a lot of
questions, and staying the summer. This started the rumor that Butch Cassidy had
returned that Butch had returned from South America, rather than shooting
himself in San Vicente.
Wind River Mountaineer no. 13 February 11, 1916, page 1Former Wyoming Man
Killed at Ely, Nevada"Billy" Sawtell who has been a resident of Wyoming
for a number of years was killed last week at Ely, Nevada, death resulting as
the culmination of a shooting affair. The remains were brought to Casper for
interment. Sawtell Is well known in Lander, and especially in this portion of
the state. He was in the Pinedale county last fall, and was in this section
during the building of the railroad into this section and is said at that time
to have killed a man, and has several killings to his credit. Sawtell Is claimed
to have been a member of the Cassady and Hole-in the Wall crowd, and was known
as a gun man.
Mountainmama:The William C. Sawtelle in the 1910 census living next to Dan
Parker in Parowan is probably the same one that Simpson said went to South
America. He is not however the same guy that was in the 1920 Washington State
census. Sawtelle got himself killed in Ely on Feb 1 1916 (see Rawlins Republican
3 Feb 1916) in a gunfight with fellow bartender Rodger M. Rutherford. The Carbon
County Journal for 9 Oct 1914 reported: "Wm. Sawtelle, a former Rawlinsite who
has been in South America for a few years, is in the city this week renewing
aquaintances." thus confirming Simpson's statement.
Everything about Butch is rediculous. And no one knows which rediculous story is
true. Or none are true. Thats the whole point. But I was hoping someone would
answer my questions above about Sawtell and Charter. Seems all the same people
on this list are the same ones arguing their point on other lists. Dan,Bill, Jim
etc etc. Probably Colin and a few others.
Mountainmama,The suggestion that Butch wrote letters in the US and
sent them "to someone to mail in SA" in order to get the Pinkertons off his back
in the US is perhaps one of the most outlandish & hilarious Butch Cassidy "what
if's" I've ever heard.A better theory is that Butch Cassidy got
himself killed in Bolivia in 1908 in order to get the Pinkertons off his back.
It's a theory that has the advantage of being half true. He did get himself
Is the William C Sawtell the same one living in 1910 next to Dan S Parker
(Butch's brother) in Parawan , Utah? If so it seems he is the same guy on the
1920 in Washington state. Also on 1910 in Pinedale ,Wy is Bert Charter.
Walt Puntenay also moved up to Pinedale in 1921. He died there in 1949. It
seems Simpson got most of his info on all this from Bert Charter and who knows
if Charter told the truth.
Do any of you big brains on here know about the $20.00 bill glued to a piece of
cardboard and given to Laramie City? It was suppose to be by one of the Wilcox
robbers. Who also had just recently died. That could have been Bert Charter as
he died Feb 25,1939 and was in Simpsons letters dated May 1939.Also
Simpson is in error in his 1939 letters to Kelly when he speaks of Sen George
Nixon who was the clerk in the Winnemucca bank during the 1900 robbery. Nixon
can't have met with the robber in 1918 because he died in 1912. Simpson got a
lot of things wrong.
You are assuming that Percy knew Butch. Think about it. If someone else told
Percy he was Cassidy then how would Percy think otherwise. And the letters could
have been written from the US and sent to someone to mail in SA. It would have
been a great way to get the Pinkertons off his back in the US . Keep them busy
Mountainmama,The Parker family's opinions about Butch Cassidy's fate
are all over the map, but the majority view -- that is, the opinion of most
family members -- is that he never came home. He went to South America and that
was that.Not surprising if you think about it. Son leaves, letters
stop, no news. As for evidence "that he went to Bolivia," there is
plenty. Percy Seibert, who worked with him at the Concordia mine; letters he
wrote to friends in Bolivia; testimony from friends in Argentina; and so on.
Thank you Artful, whoever you are , for this answer. While I understand that
Phillips is absolutely not Butch, and the family listed the date 1909 because of
articles written about his Bolivia death at that time, it still does not prove
when or where he died.We do not even have proof that he went to Boliva. Only
that someone went along with Sundance.
Mountainmama,The operative phrase is "if the family knew." The
Parker family didn't know what happened to Butch Cassidy. He went to South
America and never came back. That's the opinion of most members of the
family.I have a photocopy of an LDS "Archive Record,"filed by the
Parker family, which states that Butch Cassidy died in 1909, no place given. The
form was filed by Joseph D. Betenson, Lula's Parker Betenson's husband, sometime
after 1942, the last date typed on the form.Cassidy died in
1908 in Bolivia, so 1909 is close enough. Decades later Lula wrote a book
claiming he died in 1937 in Washington state, but she offered no proof, and most
members of her family held opinions at odds with hers. For example, Cassidy's
father sad he never returned home after going to South America. After Lula's
book came out, her brother-in-law said in his view Cassidy died in South
Mountainmama, I guess I am confused, these dates are from the actual LDS sealing
and temple records, not from from Ancestry. I don't think that there is anything
that the LDS Church may have on the Parker family that I do not have access to.
Bob, you are confusing the actual sealed records to those of just anyone who
wants to submit it to Ancestry. You cannot go online or even look it up in SL.
You must actually see the Sealed records. I could submit a date like you cite
above if I cared to.
Mountain Mama, Gee, I wish really was just that simple!According to the
LDS records there are 9 separate death dates/places for poor old Butch with over
15 different relatives submitting information on his death. They are: 19071908 Bolivia19089 July 1909 San Vicente, Potosi,
Bolivia9 July 190920 July 193720 July 1907 Spangle
WashingtonAugust 1937August 1937 San Vicente, BoliviaThe
oldest information was submitted in 1945 by a relative stating that his death
was 9 July 1909.
It would be very easy to find the answer as to where Butch died and was buried.
The LDS Genealogy Library will have all the Parker family records sealed .
Robert Leroy Parker will be there for sure if the family knew. But if he is not
there then they do not know . Just that simple.
William Henry Long was born 2 Feb 1861 or more probably 1864 in Fulton County,
Illinois. The son of James Long and Ann Harvey. James Long, born abt 1826
Gallia Co., Ohio was the son of Abner Long of Fulton County and Sally Stover.
Ann Harvey was born abt 1832 in England and was the daughter of Benjamin and
Sarah Harvey. James married Ann Harvey 29 Nov 1849 in Peoria Co., Ill. James and Ann had 8 known children: Henry, born Apr 1850 (died young), Charles
Long born 1852, Lucy Long born 1856 in Iowa, Farncis (Frank) Long born Aug 1859
in Fulton Co., William Henry Long, Sarah Salina Long born abt 1863, Nelson Long
born Sept 1865 in Iowa, and Mary Mahala born 1869 in Iowa.
Duh!William Sawtelle went to Antarctica to investigate Butch and
Sundance's fate? William Morgan alias Sawtelle went to Bolivia and
Patagonia to find Robert Scott?
That's a question for William Sawtelle.
What evidence exists that it was actually Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh who
were killed in Bolivia?
KC,Aside from the accounts of Simpson, Crabbe, Warner, Kelly, and
Bassett (all cited in footnote 86, "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't
Decide," WOLA JOURNAL, Spring 1998), what other evidence exists as to what
Sawtelle may have told friends about Butch and Sundance's fate upon his return
to Wyoming in 1914?And what evidence exists as to what in fact
Sawtelle investigated? Did he actually travel to Bolivia? To Patagonia?
In the 1880 census however there is a family that matches closely to the family
listing that Viola gave as the family of her father. The 1880 census of Columbia
County, Washington shows the following family:Long, James W M 53
Farmer Iowa, VA, Ill Chas. W M 22 Son Ill, Iowa,
Eng Frank W M 19 Son Ill, Iowa, Eng Sarah W
M 17 Dau. Ill, Iowa, Eng Wm W M 16 Son
Ill, Iowa, Eng Nelson W M 14 Son Ill, Iowa, Eng
Mary W F 11 Dau Ill, Iowa, EngThe 1870 census for this
same family is found in Orion, Fulton County Illinois has the following:Long, James 44 M W Farmer Ohio Ann 42 F W England Lucy 14 F W Iowa Francis10 M W
Illinois William 9 M W Illinois Sarah 7 F W
Illinois Nelson 4 M W Illinois Mary 1 M W
The exact number of McCarty children is still unknown.
Mary A. McCarty in the 1900 census claimed that she had 7 children, 4 of whom
were still living. In the 1910 census she claimed that she had 10 children,
three of whom were still living. There was 8 years between Rosa and Reatha(Ruth)
Rosa born 1864, Reatha born 1872. Plenty of time for extra unrecorded children.
I agree, Andrew Jebens, went to South America to work with George Musgrave,
before the arrival of Jano Musgrave alias Stewart, Sarah, Mary, and Josephine
Jebens. I have always discounted the story, that Bert Charter at the insistence
of Maude, sent Andrew Jebens to Paraguay to check on the well being of his
sister-in-law, Jeanette “Jano” Magor Musgrave. She packed a gun,
knew how to use it. If George Musgrave had physically abused her, she would have
blown his head off. It wasn’t until the early 1920’s, that Musgrave
began womanizing and drinking heavily. Jano finally left George Musgrave and
returned to the United States, July 1924. I also agree, Andrew
Jebens trip to Paraguay wasn’t in and of itself meant to find Cassidy,
none the less, as a former associate of Cassidy's and encouraged, by
Cassidy’s friends in Wyoming, he along with Sawtelle, who was specifically
sent to find Cassidy, thoroughly investigated the reports of Cassidy’s
death, and reported their finding to Cassidy‘s friends, both before and
after their return.
New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 Name: Andreas (Andrew) Jebens Arrival
Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated birth year: abt 1883 Age: 31 Gender: Male Port of
Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name: Principello Port of Arrival: New York, New
York(Birth 12 Nov 1883, Schleiswig Holstein, Prussen)Name:
Sara Jebens Arrival Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated Birth Yeart: abt. 1889 Age: 25
Gender: Female Port of Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name: Principello Port of
Arrival: New York, New York Nativity: Utah(Birth: 16 Apr 1889, Vernal,
Utah)Name: Mary Jebens Arrival Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated birth
year: abt 1910 Age: 4 Gender: Female Port of Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name:
Principello Port of Arrival: New York, New York NATIVITY: Utah Birth Location:
Utah Birth Location Other: Vernal(Birth: 02 Aug 1909, Vernal, Utah)Name: Josefine Jebens Arrival Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated birth year:
abt 1912 Age: 2 Gender: Female Port of Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name:
Principello Birth Location: Wyoming Birth Location Other: Baggs(Birth: 24
May 1912, Baggs, Wyoming)
Wm. L. Simpson May 5, 1939One of his old friends and associates
throughout the early history of Cassidy’s career and others of his kind
has just recently died in this country, and he and I have talked over many
things of interest as to individuals of the outlaw gang. (Bert Charter died
February 25, 1939)
Simpson wrote to Kelly later that year intimating that the people promoting the
Phillips story didn't know what they were talking about. He added that Bert
Charter, a second-tier member of the Wild Bunch, was responsible for having sent
"Billie Sawtell" to South America to investigate Butch's death, but this seems
doubtful because Charter was apparently among those who believed Phillips
was Cassidy. See Pointer, In Search of, pp. 240-41. D. B.Boyd
Charter, son of Bert Charter. In search of Butch Cassidy, Pp. 240. “Boyd
believes he heard the man say his name was Phillips“?
William L. Simpson, letter to Charles Kelly, May 5, 1939. Charles Kelly Papers,
Marriott Library. Simpson said he knew of two people, one named "Billie
Sattell," who went "to the place where [Butch] died and authenticated the story
of his death." This is doubtful. No record of any such trip has ever come to
light. D. B.Carbon County Journal October 9, 1914 P-5Wm.
Sawtelle, a former Rawlinsite who has been in South America for a few years, is
in the city this week renewing acquaintances.Yet another version of
the man-sent-to-South-America story is that "Billy Sawtelle, who in 1911 shot
and killed a man on the main street of Shoshoni, pulled out and left for Buenos
Aires. Some time later, when he returned, he brought word that Butch Cassidy had
assuredly been killed there in a skirmish with the police. D.B.
Simpson May 1939I am confident that Butch Cassidy died in South America by
a bullet from his own hand. I know of two persons who went to the place where he
died and authenticated the story of his death, and one of them is alive today,
and I talked to him not more than three months ago about Cassidy’s death
in South America. The other one who went there for the expressed purpose of
determining his death was Billie Sattell, who was killed at Pioche, Nevada. I
knew Sattell well and discussed Cassidy’s death with him more than once.
The 1999 issue of The Outlaw Journal also states that Cow Creek,
while owned by Hartt, was once managed by Andrew Jebens, an associate of
Ghosttown Bob: There were actually 8 McCarty children: Tom, Bill,
Joseph, George, Lois, Laura, Rosa and Reatha.Bill Long looks like he had 8
siblings as well according to your report.Just counting.
For the record; Michelle nor Jerry had anything to do with our web site. Our
material is our original research, from many sources. Mr Bob; Nobody knows if
the girls in the picture are the actual sisters of Bill Long. We only know that
is what Uncle Bill said. Just because the picture apparently has JW Riggs on the
back does not prove that it is not the Longabough's. It does however strongly
suggest that either a copy or a picture was taken in Lewiston around 1880's.
Until more evidence comes out proof is still allusive. Considering the source of
the letter we cannot assume that there is any truth in it. BL did not want any
truth in it. Although we do believe there is many unintensional truths in it.
continued:But what of the names on this list? Is it a listing of Bill
Long's family? Is it Harry Longabaugh's family, or Tom McCarty's family?
Comparing it with both the Longabaugh and McCarty families shows that the names
listed are nowhere close to either the Longabaugh or McCarty families. Harry
Longabaugh's family consisted of father, Josiah Long, mother Annie G. Place, and
children: Elwood Place (the eldest), Samanna, Emma T., Harvey Sylvester, and
Harry Alonzo (the Sundance Kid). Tom McCarty's family consisted of at least
these family members: father, Alexander McCarty, mother, Mary Ann Farmer, and
children: Thomas (Tom) the eldest, William (Bill), Joseph, George, Lois, and
Laura. Neither list of children is even close to that of Viola's list, not even
as to the number of children.
That didn’t help explain what your trying to prove. Was there a specific
date Jebens had to be home? What difference does it make whether Jebens and
Sawtelle were traveling together or arrived in Rawlins within hours of one
another? Both Jebens and Sawtelle returned to Rawlins in October 1914, after at
least two years in South America. The newspaper accounts indicate both men
arrived in Rawlins October 9, 1914. Andrew Jebens arrived at his home in Baggs,
75 miles south of Rawlins, October 10, 1914. Both men knew Butch Cassidy, both
men were former associates of Cassidy, both men knew Cassidy’s old
friends, in Wyoming. It is only reasonable to assume that eventually both
Sawtelle and Jebens are going to talk about Cassidy, and their adventures in
South America, whether upon arrival or within days of arrival. I’m not
understanding what your trying to tell us. Are you saying Sawtelle didn’t
go to South America? William Sawtelle didn’t know Andrew Jebens? Andrew
Jebens didn’t know Butch Cassidy? How about a logical explanation, instead
of all the iffy??
Anonymous: Oops, my bad. Doesn't make much sense, does it. What I meant was that
from Sept. 8th to October 10th was a long time to travel from New York to Baggs.
Usual travel time by train would be about 3-4 days add in a couple of extra days
to sight see in NYC and they should have been in Rawlins around the 14th of Sept
not around the 9th or 10th of Oct. What did they do in the mean time?? wait
around for Billy Sawtelle so that they could all get to Rawlins at the same time
and spill the beans on Butch and Sundance together?? Or, was this just a
coincidence? Or had Billy already been back in the U.S. for some time and had
finally made it back to Rawlins to renew acquaintances the same week that the
Jebens' got back.
continued:The second and larger clue as to Bill Long's origins was
contained on the last page of Viola's letter. On the last page she wrote: "The
record of my father as near as I know." Her record is as follows:"My
Grandfather James LongMy Grandmother Ann LongBro & Sisters Abner
killed by indians and his horse brought body homeCharlesFrankWilliam Henry my fatherNelsonLucy married Jim MossSarah
SalinaMary MahaliaThese names are not in order of ages but I don't
know which is the oldest"This list of family members created
problems for the Merrell and Long families for a long time. For years Viola and
other family members tried in vain to track down this family in the area of
Biose and Lewiston, Idaho, and Eastern Oregon, but without success. Finally
family members discounted the list as either fictitious, or as a type of "code"
for Bill's real family, preferring to believe the family speculation the Bill
was actually either Tom McCarty or Harry Longabaugh, the Sundance Kid.
Back from the GraveNot sure I understand the point your trying to make,
please explain.“but it took them until Oct 10th? to get to Rawlins.
It doesn't look like they were in much of a hurry. I guess they wanted to time
their arrival to that of Billy Sawtelle, but got home late.”
So the newspapers erred on the child custody. Thanks
She continued that he had pursued a system of cruel treatment, quarreling,
criticizing and abusing her, and caused her embarrassment, disgrace, humiliation
and suffering. LeFors has said the women of the red light district were
“better than she”. She further stated that she knew his income (then
as a stock detective) was $150.00 per month, and that she was entitled to
attorney’s fees, a portion of his income as temporary and permanent
alimony, and custody of the children. Joe’s answer denied her
allegations.The divorce degree awarded him custody of the children, which
was common practice when a woman had no visible means of support. Joe’s
statements in the proceedings indicated that the children would go live with a
grandmother in Weston County , Bessie’s mother.
Bessie filed for divorce in 1911, then dropped the case and filed again in 1912.
In her complaint she stated that for more than 10 years Joe had
“denounced, abused, cursed and slandered plaintiff, using to her and about
her the most vile, obscene and profane language, when alone with plaintiff and
in the presence of third persons, and in the presence of the minor
children…,and constantly accused plaintiff of immoral conduct…and
continually denounced all the friends and acquaintances of plaintiff as immoral
and unfit people with whom to associate”. (First Judicial District,
Laramie County District Court Docket 10, number 187, Bessie M. LeFors vs. Joseph
Joe LeFors messy divorce? - As described, yes messy. Also very public as it
created headlines in several Wyoming newspapers. Lefors accused of cruelty.
Papers reported that Bessie received custody of her children. Court records say
Joe LeFors messy divorce? Court records reflect that Bessie LeFors filed for
divorce in 1911, then dropped the case in the fall of 1911. February 1912 Joe
LeFors left New York bound for Buenos Aires. June 1912, Joe LeFors returns to
Cheyenne. August 1912, Bessie LeFors again files for divorce. First Judicial
District, Laramie County District Court Docket 10, number 187, Bessie M. LeFors
vs. Joseph LeFors. Joe LeFors awarded property, custody of children. Bessie
LeFors received no alimony.
Mr. Magoo, if you will tell me how to get in touch with Larry?? I’ll ask
him if he still thinks the Lander bartender was involved in all of this??
Or, maybe this story sounds better: Billy Sawtelle and Andrew (Andreas) Jebens
were really sent down to South America to find Virgil, since Virgil hadn't been
heard of since he left for Buenos Aires the year before. His uncle must have
been worried about him.By the way Jack, does Larry still think that,
that Lander bartender was still involved in all of this??
Ha Ha LOL! I have been called worse things than sounding like Dan. Now boys,
gird up your loins and lets continue our discussion. Jebens, it seems went to
South America to work with George Musgrave, not "go and find Cassidy." He even
brought his wife and Kids down with Jano Musgrave later. Sarah got bit by an
insect of some sort while in Paraguay and the whole family left for Germany to
get treatment. Lets see, they entered the U.S. on the 8th of September 1914, but
it took them until Oct 10th? to get to Rawlins. It doesn't look like they were
in much of a hurry. I guess they wanted to time their arrival to that of Billy
Sawtelle, but got home late. Gee, I don't know, maybe all four
LeFors, Geiger, Sawtelle, Jebens, got together in Buenos Aries at one of them
"ole time rodeos" that were going around, met Butch and Sundance there, (rumor
has it they attended some of them) and then cooked up their little scheme before
packing up and going home.
Dan attacked me, boo hoo. Cue world's smallest violin.Cowboy up
guys. Victim not spoken here.
Back from the Grave Sorry boys, Dan is the only one I’m aware of
with a proven record of attacking everything written or said about Butch Cassidy
and the Wild Bunch, without his personal stamp of approval. Your style, methods,
words and mannerisms are nearly identical to his. For a long period of time, Dan
actively participated in every blog, then suddenly dropped out of the debate.
Not realizing that Dan might have one or two like minded friends with the same
traits and knowing at least one lived across the pond. I assumed Dan had began
using an alias. The only other possible explanation is that Louis Pasteur also
Back from the Grave The Sundance KidsThe Artful CodgerIt’s not a game, it’s an attempt to encourage open minded
researchers, who aren’t intimidated by you boys and the Buck crowd to take
another look at Cassidy, in South America. The, as you say, I’ve got a
secret crowd certainly brought out the expected negative response. The real
question now is not whether Sawtelle, Jebens, Geiger and LeFors went to South
America, the question is why you boys are so eager to discount the possibility
that they went down there looking for Cassidy. I’d be willing to bet the
dead worm in a bottle of Tequila, that your response generated more potential
research into their trip, than the discovery that they even went to Buenos
Aries. Mission accomplished.
Very seldom while reading the comment page do I break out laughing, but Back
From the Grave's summary of the I've Got a Secret crew, AKA the Hint Hint
brigade, was hilarious, not to mention spot on.
By they way, I don't know why you'all think I am Dan Buck. I am not Dan, never
have been. I am just an old schmuck trying to get at the truth. Your little "I
have a secret" game is kind of childish. Why don't you just come out and say
what your opinion is without the game, or is that what your little Butch
Returned group is all about - - playing games?
Also while still there one or both of the groups "dropped off" the story from
the Anaconda Standard to the Buenos Aires Standard for possible publication, and
that "Andy" (hint hint) possibly wrote it. Also while there they decided to
leave Geiger there to wander around for years and years to dig up more
information. That Lefors had no real motivation to return home since his slot
machine venture was such a great success, but he returned anyway since his wife
wanted to divorce him.Well this is about all I could get out of your
posts since they are so cryptic. Please clarify where I am wrong.
Now, let me see if I understand what you are trying to say in your "I have a
secret game." From what you have posted (correct me if I am wrong) you are
saying that in 1912 some of Butch's old friends (Ryan, Magor, Charter etc.) in
the Rawlins area got together and sent Sawtelle and "Andy" (hint hint) to
Argentina to look for Butch and Sundance, and also visit the Musgraves. At the
same time LeFors and Geiger also decided to go to SA on their business trip and
using the trip as cover to also looks for BC&SK since at least Geiger was also
close friends with the Butch groupies.While there they both found out the
truth about BC&SK and had a secret meeting in some English bar where they
conspired to do a cover-up of the facts to protect BC&SK who were both
presumably both alive. cont'd
There us a link to an article on Drudge that a Butch Cassidy movie is
going to filmed in Bolivia. The Sundance Kid will not be portrayed. It will be
a story of Cassidy living in Bolivia in his latter years trying to pull one last
Now tell me this didn’t happen. Four Americans with no foreign language
skills didn’t have a chance meeting at a favorite hangout for English
speaking foreigners in Buenos Aires. With a little research, I think you boys
will find this chance meeting with Sawtelle, resulted in the premature departure
of Joe LeFors from Buenos Aires, and his failure to mention the encounter upon
I keep giving you boys clues as to who and why, two men with close ties to
former members and associates of Butch Cassidy‘s gang, were sent to South
America, in 1912. I gave you a clue as to why they went, even gave you their
names. Both men returned home on the same day in 1914. Joe LeFors and Percy
Geiger just happened to decide selling slot machines in Buenos Aires, in early
1912, would be a smart business venture. Remember, Percy Geiger was in Rawlins
and in tight with Jack Ryan and his friends during the planning stage of the
Buenos Aires trip, by Andy and Billy. Percy Geiger had been a saloon keeper and
bartender in Rawlins for years, he knew William Sawtelle as well as Andy, as a
lawman, Joe LeFors would have known Sawtelle.Continued.
OK, Dan, if you don't want to play "Find Andy" with us, how about applying all
you learned from Kid Charter about people going to SA in 1912 and applying it to
Mike Bell's "find" of the BA Standard article of 1912 and Kid Charter's find of
the 1910 Anaconda Standard article, both attributed to SK? You're already into
this one on Deseret News' other blog, so we might as well have a go at it on
Viola in her letter states: "the picture which I have was taken at Lewiston,
Idaho J.W. Rigs Photographer." J. W. Riggs owned a photographic studio in
Lewiston during the mid 1880s through the mid 1890s. The photo appears to have
been taken during this time. Samanna and Emma Longabaugh never traveled into the
West and could not have been in a photo taken in Lewiston, Idaho. So while the
photo is of Bill Long's sisters, it is not of Samanna and Emma Longabaugh. The
photo does indicate, however, that the Long family must have resided somewhere
close to Lewiston, Idaho in the late 1800s. This coincides with what Viola
explained in her letter that bill Long had said that: "his father was a cattle
man and farmer lived somewhere near Boise Idaho." While Lewiston is not
particularly close to Boise, both are in Idaho, and from the perspective of
Eastern or Southern Utah, Lewiston could be considered "somewhere near Boise."
Is Andy lost? Maybe we should start a search party.
I don't think Dan was hunting for Andy. Neither was I.
Suggestion: Someone on the blog needs to start keeping a list of the names and
numbers of WY alleged Wild Bunch members or affiliates either on the way or in
South America in 1912. Don't forget about Andy and his wife and family. You did
find Andy, didn't you Dan?
Dusty1912 - October 1914
Thanks to KC for the Billy Sawtelle info. Sawtelle seems to be an authentic
"Wild West" gunman, the type of fellow who was a real life model for many
fictional badmen. I think the truth is more interesting than fiction. Can you
tell me the approximate date he went to South America, and when he returned?Thanks
It recently came to my attention that my cousins Ross and Bambie put up a
website that we had no prior knowledge of and want to reiterate that my father
and I have nothing to do with their website, research, claims, etc. Anyone
needing clarification can contact us directly.
March 1897 Hayden, Colorado John Ogg better known as “Texas
John” was killed by Billy Sawtelle. A coroner’s jury exonerated
Sawtell from all blame in the killing and there were no tears shed when Ogg was
put beneath the sod. April 1897 Craig, ColoradoSawtell suddenly concludes that his life was in danger and without any
provocation attempts to kill Kent Whiting, the ball passing through his left arm
near the shoulder. Sawtell got his horse, left $50 in the saloon for payment of
Whiting’s surgical and medical attendance and disappeared as rapidly as
his horse could carry him. Whiting survived his wound.April 1903
Wolton, WyomingByron Crawford, was shot through the shoulder last Saturday
afternoon at Wolton, by a man named William Sawtell, According to Crawford's own
story, he was entirely at fault, says that if Sawtell is arrested, he will not
appear against him. Crawford survived his wound.CASPER 1916 William C. Sawtell remains will arrive tomorrow from Ely, Nevada, where he was
shot and killed by Roger Rutherford. Sawtell is claimed to have been a
member of the Cassidy and Hole-in the Wall crowd, and was known as a gun man.
Thanks for the information, but I still don't understand how Tom McCarty, born
in 1851, could possibly be Bill Long regardless of whether he was born in 1860,
1864, or 1867. There seems to be a 9,13, or 16 year age difference and that
seems too great not to be noticed. I tried checking Ross and Bambi's webpage and
it appears to be down. Another re-write?
Viola in her letter states: “the picture which I have was taken at
Lewiston, Idaho J.W. Rigs Photographer.”
Viola’s letter contained two vital clues as to who Bill Long’s
family was, and where they had lived. The first clue concerned the photo that
had hung in Bill Long’s house at the bottom of the stairs. The photo was
of two young women, one seated and the other standing. Bill Long had often
stated to his wife and children that the photo was of his “two
sisters.” At first glance the photo resembles a similar photo of Sammana
and Emma Longabaugh, Harry Longabaugh’s sisters in which one is seated and
the other is standing. To some the resemblance was so great that they felt this
was “proof” that Bill Long had to be Harry Longabaugh, otherwise why
would Bill Long have a photo of Harry Longabaugh’s sisters hanging on his
wall? However on closer examination, they seem to be of different people. The
telling clue how ever was on the back of the photo. On the back, either written,
or more probably stamped was J.W. Riggs Photographer. Lewiston, I. T.
Ross may have changed his mind. I know he did say at one time that he thought it
was really Tom that was killed in the bank robbery, not Bill, and it was a
matter of miss-identification of the body. According to Ross Nickle's and Bambie
Zeddis's re-vamped website their stories all revolve around Tom McCarty being
Bill Long. So it seems that he has changed his mind. Their latest claim is that
Tom on Sept 10th 1893, the day that Silas Morrell died showed up at the Morrell
farm and hired on as a hired hand.
I think that Tom McCarty was born in 1851. Doesn't that make him far too old to
be Bill Long? I thought Ross Nickle believed Bill Long was Bill McCarty. What
Continued:In time two family theories developed concerning William Henry
Long’s background. The first was that William Henry Long was Tom McCarty,
brother of Bill McCarty and a member of the McCarty outlaw family. The second
theory was that he was Harry Longabaugh, the Sundance Kid. The McCarty theory
was based on the disappearance of Tom McCarty after the September 7, 1893 Delta
Colorado Bank robbery. After the robbery, Tom had been reportedly seen in the
area of the Henry Mountains of Southern Utah. The Longabaugh theory was based on
similarities of an old family photo of Bill Long and existing photos of Harry
Longabaugh, along with the speculation that Longabaugh did not die along with
Butch Cassidy in South America. Subsequent DNA testing from both McCarty and
Longabaugh descendants with bones from William Henry Long have proven that he
was not related to either McCarty or Longabaugh. So who then was William Henry
I'm very interested in the Billy Sawtelle story. Does anyone know the date of
his birth and in which state he was born? Several published sources claim that
Sawtelle was in a gunfight in WY and killed a man. Is this true, or is it merely
a "story" without foundation in fact?Thanks
As a result, over the years, family stories concerning Bill Long were expanded
and embellished. At family gatherings many of the older generations would
exchange stories that that they had heard as youths about Bill’s exploits
as an “outlaw.” Speculation was also often exchanged at these
gatherings concerning Bill’s origins. With Viola’s apparent failure
to track Bill Long with the information that she had, this speculation started
to embrace the idea that Bill Long was hiding a past identity. That in reality,
William Henry Long (Bill) was not his real name. That in meeting and marrying
Luzernia Allred Morrell Bill was concealing his true identity, a past that he
did not want to be known. William Henry Long was an alias he could use to hide
from the law. These stories and speculations only grew when descendants found
that Bill had given conflicting information concerning his origin, age and birth
place to various family members and in government records. For instance he gave
his birth year in different records as 1860, 1864, and 1867, and his birth place
as Wyoming, Montana, or Idaho.
Continued:Viola, Bill Long’s elder daughter, had been interested for
some time in her ancestry, and particularly in her father’s family. In her
letter she detailed what she knew of Bill’s family and indicated that she
was “very anxious to locate some of my father’s people.” She
apparently was frustrated that she had been unable to find additional
information on his family. In her letter she lamented that “sometimes I
wonder if his real name was Long.” In later years she even took ancestor
hunting trips with her uncle, Jack Allred to the areas which she had been told
by her father that he had lived. On one of these trips she even went as far as
Lake Louise in Alberta Canada. She was unable, however to confirm any of her
In 1937, not long after the death of her father, Viola Long Ehlers wrote a
letter to a close relative detailing what she knew of her father’s family.
For many years it had been speculated within the larger Long and Morrell family
that William Henry Long had been associated in some way with the outlaw group
known as the “Wild Bunch.” William Henry Long, “Bill”
to his family, did not discourage this talk, in fact, in a way he encouraged it
and even contributed to it with hints and stories of his “outlaw
days.” Sometimes he would even go so far to claim the he was the outlaw
Bill McCarty, who was killed in 1893 so that he could tell “outlaw stories
Kid Charter (KC?): I didn't mean to make you mad. I thought we were having a
nice cordial discussion concerning Sawtelle, LeFors, Geiger, etc., their trips
to South America, and whether they learned anything or not concerning BC&SK on
these trips. I even conceded your point that William Morgan alias Sawtelle was
not the William Sawtelle who returned from South America Oct 1914. (I'm still
not sure what your point was on the Morgan/Sawtelle thing)I was
really hoping that you might be able to provide information on what Sawtelle,
LeFors, or Geiger may have found concerning Butch and Sundance on these trips,
because from published reports of these trips there was nothing to indicate that
anything had been found. That LeFors and Geiger's trip was nothing but a
business trip. You have to think that they would be at least curious about Butch
and Sundance. Why wasn't anything mentioned? Were they not interested? Or did
they have a secret agenda, as you seem to intimate, which they did not report
Back from the Grave, The Artful Codger, Dan On a former blog, I remember a
gentleman referred to individuals who disagreed with his point of view as
obscurants, trolls, and discussants, I believe you are one them obscurants.No harm, I was trolling anyway, your arguments against where predictable and
expected.The seed has been planted, in the near future we will see what
crops up. No need to direct your reply to me, I’ve accomplished what I set
out to do. Adis
By the way, Anonymous, good contribution on the LeFors divorce matter. (Are you
Dan?)KC, one additional thought, the drift of your remarks go beyond
"the possibility." At the close, your comment assumes that Lefors had some
"findings" about Cassidy, and the "fact" that he didn't make them public "is
suspicious to say the least."But there's no evidence that LeFors
made any findings, so how can his not making public something that hasn't been
established to begin with be a fact? And how could that be suspicious? (Are
you asserting a complot? LeFors was bribed, threatened, tickled?)Let's put it another way. "The possibility that LeFors was down in Argentina
hunting unicorns cannot be ruled out." I agree. Can't be ruled out. "The fact
that he didn't make his unicorn findings, whether rumor or fact, public is
suspicious." I disagree. We haven't established that Lefors was hunting
unicorns. First things first.
KC,Who is Dan? The posts on the Sawtelle topic were from Back From
the Grave and Kid Charter. I don't think Back From the Grave is Dan. Is Kid
Charter Dan? Are you playing a prank on us KC?Seriously, I don't
think anyone is "attacking," as you put it, "the possibility that Joe LeFors may
have gone to Buenos Aires in search of Cassidy, dead or alive."In
fact, "The Artful Codger" -- oh, sorry, that's me -- commented a couple of days
ago that it's not out of the question that Cassidy's whereabouts might have come
up during Lefors's visit to Buenos Aires, especially since the subject of Yankee
bandits had been bruited about in the Buenos Aires dailies not long before he
arrived.However, the only evidence -- pesky word, "evidence," often
gets in the way of a good story -- we have on the motive for Lefors's trip is
from Wyoming newspapers indicating that he had a business venture planned in
Australia or Argentina, and that he opted for Argentina.At some
point additional evidence may turn up. Then we can recalibrate our
The point is simple Dan, you went into your usual attack mode thinking you had
me by the ying-yang on Sawtelle. I did my home work on Sawtelle and Morgan
before I posted, not after, as evidenced by your e-mails requesting information
on the Morgan, Sawtelle affair, after your posted statement about Sawtelle. A
simple, I was wrong about Morgan being Sawtelle would have been sufficient,
instead of that garbage you call an acknowledgement. Now your attacking the
possibility that Joe LeFors may have gone to Buenos Aries in search of Cassidy,
dead or alive, in 1912. No one can say with absolute certainty that LeFors and
Geiger did or didn’t go down there to find Cassidy, but the possibility
can’t be ruled out, just because you say LeFors was down there strictly on
a business venture, with little thought of Cassidy, Hogwash. The fact that he
didn’t make his findings, whether rumor or fact public, is suspicious to
say the least.
Bessie LeFors filed for divorce in 1911, then dropped the case and filed again
in August 1912. In her complaint she stated that for more than 10 years Joe had
“denounced, abused, cursed and slandered plaintiff, using to her and about
her the most vile, obscene and profane language, when alone with plaintiff and
in the presence of third persons, and in the presence of the minor
children…,and constantly accused plaintiff of immoral conduct…and
continually denounced all the friends and acquaintances of plaintiff as immoral
and unfit people with whom to associate”. (First Judicial District,
Laramie County District Court Docket 10, number 187, Bessie M. LeFors vs. Joseph
Re William Morgan is/is not William Sawtelle: reporters in those days casually
tossed names around (not to mention casually misspelled them) and speculated
with abandon. If a lesser known bandit could be linked with a more famous
bandit, like Butch Cassidy, go for it. If the bandit operates in the northern
Rockies, make him a denizen of the Hole-in-the Wall. If he disappears, suggest
he went to Argentina.Case in point, in mid-1912 the law was hot
after the Whitney brothers for sundry crimes. Reporters managed to work into
their stories references to Butch Cassidy, Harvey Logan, and Argentina. "Wyo.
Outlaws Escape to South America, Report," was the 16 May 1912 Cheyenne Leader
headline. In Argentina, the outlaws "will join Harvey Logan, Butch
Cassidy . . . . who have been operating in that country for five years."What, were Cassidy and Logan running a bed-and-breakfast in Buenos
Aires? Posthumously, at that."Satisfied that the outlaws have left
America," lawmen "have given up the man hunt." The Whitneys never
went to Argentina, but it made a great story. And the lawmen, well, they
probably headed to the nearest saloon for a cold beer.
And your point is?? I already agreed with you in my 9:44 a.m. Feb. 12, 2010
post. The Colorado papers were full of coverage on the Morgan escape
and Trial, particularly the Moffat County Courier. Within days of his escape,
Morgan was being described as "alias Sartelle," or "Sawtelle." or even "Sarelie"
as you quote. The Laramie papers then picked up on the "Hole-in-the-Wall" angle.
Why is not exactly clear.
Back from the Grave Your post 1:24 p.m. Feb. 11, 2010, you said,
“It would have been impossible for Sawtelle to have left before 1913 since
he was involved in a jail escape and shoot-out in Craig, Colorado.” Impossible, LeFors and Geiger?August 8, 1912William
Morgan, alias Sarelie, who, in company with Charles Fansen and Andrew Comstock,
broke jail in Craig on July 2Sth last. At Dixon Morgan thought he would try the
insanity dodge and played his part so well that he succeeded in making everyone
believe, even a physician, who pronounced, his condition critical, that he was
really crazy, but when Sheriff Ledford appeared upon the scene things took a
different aspect. Ledford looked the man over, took him by the ears and gave his
head a good shaking, and told him to "come out of it." This seemed to be
sufficient to make him lose his feigned craziness and he immediately became as
rational as ever. Morgan said he had planned to try the insanity dodge at his
trial. He was brought back and lodged in jail againAugust 22, 1912William Morgan sentenced 7 to 8 years Colorado State Penitentiary.
KC,Butch and Sundance's South American activities (alleged and
otherwise), especially in Argentina, had been in and out of U.S. newspapers well
into the 1910s. Moreover, not long before Lefors and Greiger arrived in Buenos
Aires, the Argentine papers had been awash in stories of Yankee bandits dying in
a shootout with police in Patagonia. On the other hand, the news
that Butch and Sundance had departed Argentina in 1905 and via Bolivia the
planet earth in 1908 had not yet obtained wide circulation.Thus, it
would not be out of the question that during LeFors's brief sojourn in Argentina
and Geiger's lengthier visit to the region, the subject of Butch/Sundance's
whereabouts might have come up, perhaps in a letter home, whatever.
I don't know what you think I am worried about. I am not spinning anything. As
of now there is no indication that LeFors and Geigers South America trip was
nothing but a business trip. If Geiger wrote letters to his mother, and he does
seem to be a letter writer with some skill, that would be fantastic. Anything in
them concerning Cassidy I would welcome, not only to me but I think others
interested in the Wild Bunch would be interested also. They have yet to be found
or made public which makes any speculation of what they contained, just that . .
When you start spinning the Geiger/LeFors issue the way you have, it’s a
good indication that your worried. In the case of Percy Geiger, as with William
Morgan, you should be worried. Geiger wrote letters to his mother, telling her
of his adventures in South America, his involvement with Joe LeFors, and their
search for Cassidy. It’s my understanding that some of these letters may
have survived. If found and made public, we may learn more about what really
I don't think an anonymous quote from Wikipedia asserting that LeFors was an
"ineffective" lawman constitutes much of a case.Dan Thrapp,
Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography, thought otherwise. Likewise, the
above-mentioned Cheyenne State Leader: "LeFors has the reputation of having been
one of the best stock detectives the state has ever known."
I agree Geiger's ten years in South America was of his own choosing, and he was
not on LeFors payroll.You said: "In late 1911, Geiger knew
certain individuals were making plans to send two men to Buenos Aires. I suppose
it was just a coincidence that Geiger went into partnership with Joe LeFors, in
a scheme to sell Wyoming slot machines, in of all places, Argentina." and: "opposing sides had men wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and
Paraguay for years. I doubt Geiger was selling slot machines to the Sheroties
and Togo Indians. Evidently, Geiger didn’t find anything, otherwise Joe
LeFors would have made it knownand: [Lefors]"had his own man
wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay for years."I said
I doubted that LeFors was much interested in BC&SK at all, and sure didn't
figure into his 1911/12 trip to Argentina.
Correction:"in Cheyenne that he" not "that he in Cheyenne"
I think if you read up a bit more on LeFors's police career, you'll find that
his achievements were not limited to Tom Horn.Second, his wife filed
for divorce on grounds of "extreme cruelty" in late 1911, several months prior
to departure from the United States. See: 7 November 1911, Cheyenne State
Leader. The story also mentions that "it has been known for some time that he
in Cheyenne that he intends to change the scene of his activities soon to either
Australia or the Argentine Republic, to both of which countries he has been
offered a prominent and lucrative position."To repeat, there is no
evidence presented to date that Joe Lefors went to Argentina for any other
reason than to pursue the slot-machine enterprise.
Who said Geiger was on LeFors payroll for years and years, you, not me. After
Geiger’s unexplained 1,200 mile adventure by mule around Argentina,
Bolivia, and Paraguay, he returned to Buenos Aries, the 10th of December 1913, a
very sick man. Percy Archie Geiger remained in Buenos Aires until 1923, of his
choosing, not because he was on LeFors payroll.It’s not the
least bit surprising Joe LeFors doesn’t mention Argentina and his failed
attempt to find Cassidy in his autobiography, why would he tell anyone he once
again failed to bring in his man. LeFors had a habit of bragging about his
exploits, and his prowess as a lawman. Other than the questionable methods used
in the arrest of Horn, “Lefors was not an effective lawman. If anything,
he was ineffective.”By the way the very messy divorce was
after his return from Buenos Aries.
Just because Geiger was well know around Rawlins doesn't mean he was "sent" to
South America to search for BC&SK. He went to either sell slot machines or to
set them up in some sort of business venture. It may just as well been a
coincidence. Cassidy's "friends" around Rawlins were not in financial shape to
be sending people traipsing all over South America for years and years. As for LeFors, as soon as he quit the Marshal's office, he probably did
forget all about BC&SK, at least as far as pursuing them. As the Codger said, he
LeFors only mentioned them in passing in his autobiography. Yup in 1912/1913 I
doubt LeFors was much interested in Cassidy.Not every trip to South
America by a Wyoming resident was a hunt for Cassidy.
Percy "Slots" Geiger and his slot machines were well known in both Wyoming and
Colorado, but by 1912/13 the laws were such that it was virtually impossible for
him to operate them profitably. Laws in other states were just about as bad.
South America at this time was seen as a new frontier with many different
economic possibilities ie. mining, ranching, etc. Articles appeared on a regular
basis in U.S. newspapers concerning South America. LeFors and Geiger were just
two of many that went to South America on business ventures from Wyoming. It just so happened that LeFors was involved in a very messy divorce and
I am sure that this looked like a good opportunity to get away for a while.
1912 was not Percy Geiger’s first adventure into the business of selling
Wyoming slot machines.1905: Geiger, proprietor of the several slot
machines in this city, has shipped them all to New Mexico. Mr. Geiger will
follow them in a few days.In late 1911, Geiger knew certain
individuals were making plans to send two men to Buenos Aires. I suppose it was
just a coincidence that Geiger went into partnership with Joe LeFors, in a
scheme to sell Wyoming slot machines, in of all places, Argentina.Are You suggesting Joe LeFors forgot about Cassidy and Longabaugh?Joe Lefors 1903 relocation to Nicaragua in no way parallels Argentina. In
1912, Tom Horn was long dead. In 1903 you had the Jack Martin affair, it was to
hot in Cheyenne for Joe LeFors and his friends.
LeFors was in the posse pursuing the Tipton robbers, but that was after all his
job. He was a Wyoming lawman. There's no evidence, however, that he was in any
way obsessed about hunting Butch or Sundance. (Yes, that's the way it plays out
in the 1969 movie, but that was William Goldman's dramatic device, not a
historical fact) In LeFors's autobiography Butch is mentioned only in passing,
and Sundance not at all.LeFors's 1911 Argentina adventure parallels
his 1903 relocation to Nicaragua, where he hired out to a cattle enterprise.
After a few months, he threw in the towel and came home. Butch and Sundance
were at the time ranching in Argentina, out of Lefors's sight and mind.Just because we're interested in the fate of the two outlaws doesn't mean
everybody else was.
I think many of you are so knowledgeable that all the historical information is
clouding simple good common sense. After the shoot out in Bolivia, all accounts
of these two vanished into the netherworld. IF they returned, there would have
been letters, journals, diaries, gossip, SOMETHING that would have verified
their return(s)and not by family members who wanted to have some 'fun'. They
were both famous by this time and it's not only highly unlikely but almost
impossible to keep something as explosive as their returning from the 'dead' a
secret. There were far too many operatives and far too many rewards on both
their heads that someone, somewhere wouldn't want to cash in. Their bodies will
more than likely never be found unless some new device can find skeletons buried
over 100 years ago. My deepest respect goes to all of you whose thirst to solve
one of the greatest 'old wild west' mysteries is never ending but perhaps the
simpliest answer is the correct one.
The Joe Lefors Percy "Slots" Geiger business deal and trip to South America
makes for good reading. Someone before now should have written something on it.
LeFors, probably since it was a bust, never really mentioned it in his
autobiography. The whole idea of taking a bunch of slot machines to Argentina
where gambling was more open and less restricted was an interesting. Now just how this all applies to BC&SK is puzzling, because by all accounts
this was strictly a business trip by both LeFors and Geiger. When LeFors found
the machines ruined and the trip fruitless he "lit a shuck" for home and his
impending divorce. Geiger chose to stay, and by his letters had an adventurous
time. I really doubt however that LeFors paid him to stay there for ten years
just to look for BC&SK, or that a BC&SK search consumed even a fraction of their
time. You really can't call Geiger LeFors "man."
Great job Bob, a week after I posted, you found Slots Geiger. Now lets see if
you can find Andy? Then maybe you can tell me why opposing sides had men
wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay for years. I doubt Geiger was
selling slot machines to the Sheroties and Togo Indians. Evidently, Geiger
didn’t find anything, otherwise Joe LeFlors would have made it known. Get
out of the jacuzzi Bob, you might learn more around a campfire with a bunch of
old men with corupted memories.
Now that some of the family's records that have been hidden, and hoarded have
been revealed, the real truth will shortly be revealed. Hiding pertinent
information like what was written on the back of the picture of Bill Long's
sisters never leads to the truth. If you re-read some of the earlier comments,
you will see that this information was was purposely withheld. This was because
it could not reconciled with their pet theory. Even in the KSL TV piece that
showed the photos this was withheld. My most humble thanks go to
Ross and Bambie for making this and other information public so that the real
truth can finally be known, even though the final result will be vastly
different than what either they or Jerry expects.But hey, I'm still
interested in the tales the old men are swapping about LaFors, Geiger, and group
in South America. I had no idea the LaFors got around so much. His autobiography
sure didn't mention much about it.
Anonymous: Possibly, but I prefer magic mushrooms instead. The jacuzzi is hot so
jump on in and let's party!The whole purpose of the little exercise
as posted above was to show that there were other possible explanations
concerning Bill Long's past that needed to be explored, and eliminated, before
spending large sums of money and proclaiming that Bill Long was the Sundance
Kid. Each possible explanation has to be examined, doubted, tested, and
disproved, or confirmed before coming to a conclusion. Every angle has to be
thoroughly explored. The William Long, son of Alexander Long story was but one
example, but a very useful example to illustrate this point.
Bob tell us, were you in your jacuzzi smoking peyote when you dreamed up with
this whopper?Ghosttown Bob | 12:36 p.m. Jan. 29, 2009 Now that
the hoopla has died down about William Henry Long, it is about time to reveal
real story.William Long was born 1857, possibly Feb. 2. in
Springfield twp., Fayette County PA. His parents were Alexander and Mary Jane
Long. Alexander was a cooper by trade. William came from a large family of at
least 8 children. The family moved from Springfield to Iowa City, Johnson Co.,
Iowa around 1863 when William was about 6 years old where his father continued
working as a cooper. Around 1880 William moved with his sister Minnie to
Ft. D.A. Russell, near Laramie, Wyo. to live with his older sister Julia Ann and
her husband Henry Parker. Henry Parker in 1880 was working as a Freighter and
wagon master, hauling freight out from Laramie. It was at this time that William
Long became familiar with Northern Wyoming and Eastern Montana as he help his
brother-in-law freight goods to the distant Army posts along the Bozeman trail
up into Montana.
For you information the case has been closed for quite a while. Your comment is
completely irrelevant. Roscoe, Charter, and the rest are just a bunch of old men
sitting around telling campfire stories and having a good time trying to come up
with the best whopper. Don't spoil their fun.
you guys are allll so stupid quit fighting about this ( Back to the Grave,
Roscoe, Anonomys, The Sundance Kids, etc.) you guys are allll soooo wrong. I am
a historian detective and i was submitted to solve this case and indeed did i
figure it out. Or so the best conclusion that anyone has rested upon... It is
said not to say to the world or media about this case because of a family
decision and they were not pleased that we actually dug him out of his resting
place. They did not want their family member to be known out to the world when
he is infact dead. I know what you're thinking....Stupid right? Well they are
actually mormon so no religion should be fought upon. So, go on ahead thinking
your uterally stupid thoughts. As they say in court, CASE CLOSED
1913Joe LeFors of this city, who went with him, but later returned is in
receipt, of a letter in which he relates his experiences in the interior of the
South American continent."Well, Joe, I have had some experiences
here. I have traveled all over Argentina, Bolivia, and part of Paraguay. I have
seen some good times, but more of the bad and tough ones. I returned here the
10th of December from Bolivia and Paraguay, after traveling over 1,200 on mule
back. We were up near the equator and it was awfully hot. For days we traveled
thru dense jungles alive with beasts. At night the sounds of wild animals and
birds at the water holes would simply drive you crazy. At latitude 23 we
traveled east and crossed the Pilcama river into Paraguay. "The Sheroties and
Togo Indians are very bad there and there is not a settler in the entire
country, and not one domestic animal could be seen. "I have been sick ever since
I came back I think I have jungle fever and I have broken out with painful
blisters. I do not leave the hotel and am under the doctor’s
What did Joe Lefors have to say about the deaths of Cassidy and Longabaugh?He had his own man wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay for
Back From The GraveNewspaper Article:“Wm. Sawtelle, a former
Rawlinsite who has been in South America for a few years, is in the city this
week renewing acquaintances.”Now understand, I’m only
retelling what I was told by acquaintances of William Sawtelle. They also knew
Jack Ryan, Bert Charter, William Lay, Will Simpson, etc. I also know of a second
man from the Snake River country, who returned to Rawlins from Paraguay the same
month as William Sawtelle. This man had close ties to Bert Charter, the Magors
and the Caverts. The men I’m referring to in my retelling, talked to both
men within hours after their return, not months or years. Now, I’m not
telling you everything I know, but I believe I have a pretty good idea when and
why the original version was changed from not sure to dead.
But, of course he was neither one. Thanks for clearing things up.
31 July 1912 Craig CO: "William Sawtelle, alias William Morgan . . . said to be
leaders of the notorious 'Hole-in-the wall' gang of desperatoes . . . Sawtelle,
one of the gang is known in this city, having been a visitor here at intervals
for several years, and formerly lived in the county"Or how about Ben
Hickman?? Escaped with Jack Dempsey in Feb 1912 he was about the same age as
Morgan. Craig authorities though so for a time.
Back from the GraveThursday August 8, 1912 Craig Colo.“Morgan
is in a hospital at Dixon, Wyo., suffering from insanity brought on by the
terrible exposure. He has since become a raving maniac and is strapped to his
bed. At times the bandit sobs like a baby, relating tales of his childhood.
"Mother"is the oft-repeated word of the boy gunman”. At
age 42, it’s doubtful anyone would describe William Sawtelle as the boy
gunman. Of course, there is the possibility that William Morgan was alias
Back from the GraveCraig, Colo., July 31, 1912 – Charles Frazen,
William Sawtelle, alias William Morgan, and Andrew Comstock, the three prisoners
who escaped from the jail here last night. Are you telling me they tried
convicted and sentenced William Morgan to the Colorado State Penitentiary, for
the escape, knowing all along that he was William Sawtelle?
Why would William Sawtelle have told Charter and Ryan a different story? He
seemed to have claimed to everyone else that they were dead.
It would have been impossible for Sawtelle to have left before 1913 since he was
involved in a jail escape and shoot-out in Craig, Colorado in the summer of
1912. By August of 1912, he had been re-captured and was in a Dixon hospital
suffering from insanity. On returning, it appears that the emissary, or
emissaries gave differing accounts of Butch and Sundance's fate. Allegedly in
Utah he produced a picture that he claimed was of the dead Butch and Sundance
and told several people that they were dead. This included Gibbons, Lay, Bracken
and others. Though Bracken, on seeing the photo though that the Butch of the
photo looked more like Tom Dilly. Charles Kelly tried in vain to get a copy of
the photo, but it seems that Sawtelle got himself killed in a gunfight in Ely in
1916 and not one knew what happened to the photo after that.
From what I have read, after Butch and Sundance had not been heard from for a
while, and rumors were circulating that they had been killed some of their old
friends, Charter, Simpson, Bracken, Gibbons, Lay, Warner,and possibly others
went in on a collection to send someone to South America to find out what may
have happened. Just who that was depended on who was doing the talking. It could
have been Sawtelle, or a man named Burton, or Walker or any two of them. Edmund
Crab, an old Shoshoni, Wyo resident claimed it was "Billy Sawtelle" who left
sometime after a shootout in Shoshoni in 1911 which was two years before
Musgrave moved to Paraguay.
Wyoming Native: No disrespect, but I did check my notes. Wilson D. Smith not
William Smith was stock inspector for Custer County. He is usually referred to
as W.D. Smith, but in some accounts he has been referred to as Wm Smith, Wm D
Smith, "Lame Billy" Smith, "Lame Willie" Smith, Deputy Smith or just Billy
Smith. In one newspaper account out of Milwaukee he is referred to in the same
article as Wm. Smith, Wilson L. Smith, and Wilson D. Smith. Wilson
D. Smith born 2 may 1854 in Travis County (or Bell County) Texas to Harvey Smith
and Maria Davidson. Married abt 1894 to Katherine Miller. Lived in Miles City,
Montana and was the Custer County stock inspector for many years. He died 5
April 1915. As stock inspector he was also deputized as a Deputy Sheriff of
BFTG- You should not blog without checking your notes. Mr. Smith from Miles
City, Montana was William D. Smith not Wilson D. Smith!
Driftwood: What I was trying to say was that - in the context of whether William
Henry Long was the Sundance Kid, or not (the theme of this blog) - it doesn't
matter whether Alonzo was in Belle Fourche or in the Little Snake River Valley
at the time of the robbery because he wasn't in Fremont. My opinion,
looking at the evidence is that Alonzo was still working for Reader & Co. at the
time of the robbery, and that Wilson D. (Billy) Smith, the Montana State stock
inspector for the Miles City area was just a plain old dope. If it hadn't been
for Eph Davis, Smith would have let Harry escape the first time in 1887. He was
sleeping and took no precautions at all to ensure that Harry couldn't escape,
while Davis did all of the work.
Kid Do you know when Sawtelle went to SA?
Upon the return of William Sawtelle from South America, he reportedly told his
old friends, Bert Charter and Jack Ryan, that Etta and Sundance had returned to
the United States via San Francisco, before his arrival in South America and
that nothing had been heard from either one after their return. He reportedly
also said, that Cassidy had returned to the United States sometime after 1910.
One story I’ve heard is that Sawtelle was sent to South America, to not
only look for Cassidy and Longabaugh, but check on the well being of Bert
Charter’s sister-in-law Jano. The trip being financed by Charter, Ryan,
and Simpson. There’s little doubt that the William C. Sawtell living in
Parowan, Iron County, Utah in the 1910 census and the William C. Sawtelle who
traveled to South America are but one and the same. If one of Sawtelle’s
objectives was to check on the well being Bert Charter’s sister-in-law
Jano, George and Jano Musgrave had not settled in Paraguay until the fall of
1913. Upon Sawtelle’s return from South America in 1914, Sawtelle’s
first stop was Rawlins and Jack Ryan.
Back From The Grave, I am sorry but your post makes no sense to me. What point
are you trying to make? Bill Long has nothing to do with the topic I was
discussing which is....was Alonzo one of the Belle Fourche bank robbers or was
he on the Little Snake River on the day of the robbery?
But of course Bill was not really Alonzo, but just plain old Bill. The Bill
trying to farm and old piece of dirt in Wayne County, raising a passel of kids,
most of whom where not his, and arguing with his wife's old in-laws.
Talk about speculation. Sounds more like a plot for a novel. Alonzo is not
really Alonzo, who was not the Alonzo robbing banks, who was not the Alonzo
getting arrested, who was not really the Alonzo in the Little Snake River
Valley, who was not the Alonzo shooting up saloons, who was not the Alonzo in
Deadwood or Pierre, but was really the Alonzo who was really Bill who was the
Bill who was home in Fremont "tripping the light fantastic" with Luzernia.
The most famous Elvis sighting of all time was Butch and Sundance in San Vicente
Bolivia where they were killed. Do you also consider Dan Buck’s
digging up the San Vicente robbers Gustave Zimmer and Enrique Huchin to be
that is very disrespectfull if you ask me... digging up a body for some dna
testing let him stay and be free from this..
Speculation for discussion: the Deadwood prisoner knew Alonzo and knew that
Alonzo was on the Snake River on the day of the Belle Fourche robbery. The
lawyer wrote to Gillespie asking him and some others to come up to Deadwood and
identify the prisoner as Alonzo. Gillespie could not go; Lehey and Galloway did
go and they also took with them statements from Gillespie and others that Alonzo
was on the Snake River the day of the robbery. When they arrived, not only did
they discover the prisoner was not Alonzo, but that they knew who the prisoner
was. They were not going to commit perjury by lying and stating the prisoner
was Alonzo. If they had identified the prisoner it would have caused problem
for other people in and around Baggs. Perhaps this person had a family of
position and respect in the community. It may also have caused problems for
Lehey and Galloway. When Galloway and Lehey returned to Baggs, they told the
newspaper they never saw the prisoner.
Little Snake River Valley, John Frederick Gooldy: Brother-in-Law of David
Gillespie: “An employee of Robert Mclntosh received a letter from Harry
from Walcott, Colorado, and one from him in New York City, with a picture of him
and his wife, saying he had married a Texas lady he had known previously. A year
from that time another letter came from South America, in which he asked how
things were in the valley. The letter was not answered. Harry told before
leaving Slater that he and Butch were going to South America.”After Gillespie received the New York photograph from Harry, Gillespie no
doubt, shared the letter and photo with his brother-in-law, Gooldy. Years later,
Gooldy says, “I knew Harry Longabaugh, he went by the name of Harry Alonzo
when I knew him.” Neither man ever wavered in their identification and
belief that Harry Alonzo and Harry Longabaugh where the same man. No doubt,
before they died, both men had seen the Fort Worth five photograph and a
Pinkerton copy of the New York photograph of Harry and Etta.David
Gillespie died in 1958, John Gooldy died in 1962.
You can argue all you want as to whether Jones was Longabaugh, the fact remains
that Harry Alonzo and his lawyers wrote a letter, requesting witnesses to come
to Deadwood, South Dakota, who could testify as to the whereabouts of Harry
Alonzo, on the date of the Belle Fourch bank robbery. David Gillespie wrote:
“He and his lawyer both wrote here telling how the matter stood and wanted
me and one or two others to go there to identify him and prove that he was on
Snake River at the time of the bank holdup.” The People's Voice:
“Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up
and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs,” Galloway and
Lahey (Leahy), made the trip to South Dakota, who knows what transpired after
they got there. Harry Alonzo was Harry Longabaugh.
Correction, I meant "probably left in February 1901," not March 1901.Never write from memory
Re Pierce v. Weinstein v. whomever, my copy of the note -- "Des of Longabaugh .
. . ." -- does not give a location of the hospital. Is there another that
does?The July 29, 1902, memo refers to visits to Pierce in Buffalo
and Weinstein in NYC and 1901 and 1902 visits to New York, without going into
more detail. Two days later, in a July 31 letter, William Pinkerton suggests
to brother Robert that they learn more about the Buffalo visit, which may lead
to medical information from other doctors. An April 1902 memo
suggests Sundance "was in hospital last summer in Buffalo." The season is wrong
-- he probably left the US in March 1901 -- and doesn't mean he couldn't
returned there during his 1902 visit.Same memo, by the way, says
Wyoming sheriff A.W. Storm described Sundance while in jail in Sundance as 6
feet, 170 pounds. By 1902, he had reportedly shrunk down to 5' 9" and chunked
out to 185-190.All grist for the mill.
Driftwood,I have no dog in the Longabaugh v. Jones matter, other
than that a relatively small difference in reported height between the two is
not conclusive. Police identifications are often mistaken and
measurements haphazard, especially down at the county sheriff level. Compounded
by the lengths suspects went to outwit their captors. Sundance and Harvey Logan
squirmed their way out of mugshot photographs. Multiple aliases, sometimes
borrowed from lawmen, other times from fellow bandits. It was not in the
interest of outlaws to cooperate.Continued
Driftwood- Back then names did not mean much. If arrested and even convicted
you were who you said you were. Ben Kilpatrick spent over ten years in Federal
Prison under the name John Arnold, even though the authorities knew very well
who he was!
Why didn’t Billy Smith recognize Frank Jones as longabaugh when Jones was
taken into custody and escorted to Deadwood by Billy Smith?
The different measurements for Kilpatrick is a good point. Maybe the something
applies to Frank Jones and he was Longabaugh. Gillespie, Galloway and Lehey
stated the prisoner was not Longaabaugh (Alonzo). If they were correct then
who was Frank Jones?I would guess Ayers estimated Alonzo’s
height.The Pinkerton Files state the Pierce visits was in the summer
of 1901 in Buffalo. The hand written note states longabaugh and wife were
treated in May 1902 in NYC. This 1902 visit had to have been a visit to Dr
Weinstein in NYC because the Pierce clinic was in Buffalo.
Driftwood,"Inmate measurements are always accurate." Say
what? Look at the Kilpatrick measurements above. No measurements are always
accurate, especially when we have no idea how they were taken. Carpentry adage:
measure twice, cut once.Second, per 3 April 1902 memo, Philadelphia
agent J.T.C.: "It is believed [Sundance] was in hospital last summer in 1901 in
Buffalo, New York."Per 29 July 1902 Pinkerton report, Sundance was
treated -- no date given -- by Dr. Pierce, Buffalo, and Dr. Weinstein, NYC.
Pierce ref cites his Medical Institute. Weinstein ref cites his office. Per an undated (but post May 1902) handwritten note in Pinkerton files,
presumably written by an agent: "Des of Longbaugh and wife as given by Hospital
Officials who treated both of them in May 1902." The officials described him
as "5 ft 9, 185 or 190." Did they measure him or describe him? Did he
self-report his height and weight? Were the officials talking informally, not
even referring to a medical report? Was there even a medical report? Was this visit Pierce, Weinstein, or someone else? Not clear.
Although Charles Ayer may have been a sheriff in Decatur county, Kansas 1880/82,
he had no legal authority in Wyoming/Colorado. Explain how or when he measured
Harry Alonzo/Harry Longabaugh?
Driftwood- So----who do you suppose was the Frank Jones held in the Deadwood
The Frank Jones that was held in the Deadwood Jail was measured at 5’10
Inmate measurements are always accurate. It has been assumed that Frank Jones
was Harry Longabaugh. Harry Lonhagabaugh was 5’9”. It appears to
me Frank Jones was not Harry longabaugh. Who was Frank Jones?
Sundance visited the Pierce clinic in Buffalo in the summer of 1901. He visited
Dr Weinstein in New York City in May 1902. The Pinkerton files use the May 1902
hospital report, which states he was 5’9". The source for the wanted
posters description is unknown and probably just a guess from some person that
saw him with his boots on. The Charles Ayers description in the Pinkerton
files gives his height as 5’10”. I doubt Ayers measured his height
while he was barefooted, where as the hospital report was exact.
In her book, The Sundance Kid: The Life of Harry Alonzo Logabaugh (2009), Donna
Ernst reproduces or quotes various documents that cite Sundance's height as
between 5' 9" and 6 feet: Pinkerton wanted card, ca. 1900, 5' 10"; Wyoming
court records, ca. 1887, 6 feet; Pinkerton wanted circular, ca. 1900, 5' 10";
and a report from Dr. Pierce's clinic, ca. 1902, 5' 9".What was his
actual height? Hard to tell. Depends on whether he was measured with his boots
on or off; in the morning or the evening; if the person doing the measuring was
careful or not; if Sundance was cooperating or not; and so on.Ben
Kilpatrick was measured in 1901 by the St. Louis police at 6.1. Five years
later, the authorities at the federal pen in Atlanta measured him 5' 11 3/8
"and 1 m. 81.3 -- except that 1 m. 81.3 is only about 5' 9 1/2". Three
measurements, two at the same time, and three results. Go figure.
Roscoe"no one knew his name." No one in the Little Snake River Valley, or
Carbon county, knew his name was Harry Longabaugh.
When Sundance visited Dr. Weinstein in New York City in May of 1902 his height
was given as 5’9”. This information can be found in the Pinkerton
files. I have no idea how Ernst concluded he was 5’10’to 6'tall.
Roscoe- I have never seen Harry Longabaugh described as 5'9" in height before.
You stated that James Ryan (sheriff of Crook Co., WY) measured him as being 5'9"
in height when incarcerated for 18 months in the Sundance jail in July of 1887.
Ernst usually describes Sundance as being from 5' 10 1/2" tall to 6'0" tall.
Where is your information that James Ryan measured Harry's height? Estimating
height can be done in several different ways that does not involve a tape
(Correction Sheriff Ryan not Sheriff Davis)Sundance Gazette. Friday, June
24, 1887. "The Kid.""The Kid," Harry Longabaugh, whom Sheriff Ryan
went after for the second time, seems to be a pretty slick one. The Miles City
Stockgrowers’ Journal gives an account of his career after escaping and
Sundance Gazette. Friday, June 24, 1887. "The Kid.""The Kid," Harry
Longabaugh, whom Sheriff Davis went after for the second time, seems to be a
pretty slick one. The Miles City Stockgrowers’ Journal gives an account of
his career after escaping and his recapture.Sundance Gazette.
Friday, February I5, 1889. Harry Longabaugh. who was released from county
jail last week, has had his citizenship rights restored. Governor Moonlight
having pardoned him a day before the expiration of his time.The
Weekly Boomerang. THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 7, I889.James C. McCormick sentenced
to the Joliet penitentiary in May, 1887, for three, years for forgery, and Harry
Longabaugh, sentenced the Crook county jail for eighteen months for
horsestealing, have both been pardoned by Governor Moonlight.
That night, Lonzo went back into the store with Dad where the two of them
visited for "quite a while," as Dad told. While visiting Harry paid Dad back
money he'd borrowed from him, laying a gold coin on the counter and saying,
"Keep the change." Dad questioned Harry, "Harry, there's a rumor you've been
riding with the Wild Bunch. It isn't so, is it?"Harry answered, "No, Dave,
it isn't true."The next morning the stranger ate breakfast upstairs at the
table with several other men who had stayed there overnight. Dad took breakfast
to Harry in the livery stable, then saw both of them off. As they were getting
on their horses Harry said, "Dave, do you know this man?" Dad used the name that
had been used for the stranger the night before. Harry answered, "He's Butch
David D. Gillespie son of David Gillespie 1996: “Dad considered a young
cowboy who drifted into the Little Snake River Valley a good friend of his. This
friend, Harry Lonzo, worked for A. R. Reader on the Savery Creek. He had a
likeable personality and was an excellent bronc rider. By the time Harry left
the valley, rumors were that he had been riding with the "Wild Bunch." Dad was
one of those who didn't believe the rumors. (sometime between 1897 and 1901) as
my dad told the story, late one evening after dark he was in the store catching
up on some work when he heard a tap at the window. Going to the door, he faced a
stranger saying, "There's a man outside here who wants to see you." The stranger
guided Dad to Harry Lonzo, Harry introduced the stranger to Dad, using a name
that Dad did not recognize and could not later remember. (Continued)
Roscoe: “The People's Voice article was publised on October 30, 1897, not
on October 10. The article was based on the statements of J. Galloway and E.
Lahey, who said they went to "Pierre, S.D." but were not allowed to see Alonzo.
The story is suspect. First, Alonzo was jailed in Deadwood, not Pierre, S.
D.” As The Artful Codger correctly stated “typographical
errors were extremely common in the era of telegraphed copy, handset type, etc.
Typos persist to this day.”
J. Galloway and E. Lahey, ( Emmett Leahy), Harry Alonzo’s Belle Fourche
alibi witnesses. Harry Alonzo worked and broke horses for Jesse Galloway,
Jennie “Beeler” Leahy and William Crawford Beeler in Slater,
Colorado during the winter of 1896 and spring of 1897. Emmett Elden Leahy was
the son of Jennie “Beeler” Leahy.
John Frederick Gooldy: Brother-in-Law of David Gillespie: “I knew Harry
Longabaugh, robber and pal of Butch Cassiday. He went by the name of Harry
Alonzo when I knew him. He was a cowboy for A. R. Reader, He left the valley
which was August 1897. He was next heard of in Jail, at Deadwood, South Dakota,
being accused of a bank robbery at Belle Fourche, South Dakota. He broke jail
and was back in the valley the same fall, stayed over night at Slater, Colorado,
and the next morning early an employee of Robert Mclntosh took him by team and
buggy to the A. R. Reader ranch to see a cowboy friend. When he came back people
did not know his correct name, though they had begun to hear things. On his
return, at Slater, a local man asked him if there was any truth about things
that were being said about him, and he said they were not true. The man said,
"Harry, I am surely glad to hear that." He stayed over night at Slater, and was
seen in Dixon the next morning, and that was the last seen of him for three
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or brain surgery to figure out who
Gillespie is talking about. The People's Voice October 30, 1897:
Harry Alonzo, who formerly worked for Reader & Co's cattle outfit at Snake
river, and who joined the Powder Springs gang of thieves some time last winter,
was arrested about a month ago m South Dakota, on the charge of robbing the
Belle Fourche bank. Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known
him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs,Laramie Republican October 24, 1897 CASSADY GETS AWAY:Henry Alonzo was
recently arrested in Billings, Mont., for complicity in a bank robbery at Belle
Fourche, S. D. Alonzo formerly worked for Reader & C0., on Snake river, but same
months ago cast his fortune with Cassady.
RoscoeIn a letter to his folks, dated October 12, 1897, David Gillespie
wrote: " I came very near going to Deadwood, South Dakota for a few days and it
is barely possible that I may go yet. A young fellow, a friend of mine who
worked for Al Reader up till the middle of July left here near the first of
August and went up there, and about the first of the month was arrested on the
charge of having been in the bank robbery at that place on June 28. He was here
at Slater on June 27 and up at Al's ranch on the 28th so couldn't possibly have
taken part in the robbery.. When arrested he didn't think it would amount to
much so didn't give his right name as he didn't want it to get into the papers.
He and his lawyer both wrote here telling how the matter stood and wanted me and
one or two others to go there to identify him and prove that he was on Snake
River at the time of the bank holdup.”(Continued)
Anonymous:No, what I am saying is that the person jailed in Deadwood
in 1897 was not the same person as the person who was jailed in Sundance in
1887. There is a material difference.The second material fact is
that the "Harry Alonzo" in Little Snake in January 1897, was not the same person
as the person locked in the Deadwood jail until October 31, 1897. This is not to
say that "Harry Alonzo" was complicit in the Belle Fourche robbery --he was
not.To unravel what seems to be a conundrum, my suggestion is that
you look carefully at eastern Wyoming, 1885-1887, and the role it played in BC
and SK going to SA.Hints: Elzy Lay's alias was William H.
McGinnis, the name of the judge that sentenced SK in 1887. BCs alias was James
Ryan, the sheriff who tracked SK in 1887. ALONZO Craven was the name of the
cowboy SK allegedly stole a horse, saddle, tack, and revolver from in 1887.It isn't rocket science or brain surgery. Just follow the lead --without
RoscoeAre you saying that the man known in the Little Snake River Valley
in 1897, as Harry Alonzo, wasn’t Harry Longabaugh?
3.) The People's Voice article was publised on October 30, 1897, not on October
10. The article was based on the statements of J. Galloway and E. Lahey, who
said they went to "Pierre, S.D." but were not allowed to see Alonzo. The story
is suspect. First, Alonzo was jailed in Deadwood, not Pierre, S. D. Second, it
is not credible that Galloway and Lahey would be denied access to Alonzo/Jones
because he was not held incommunicado. If Sherrif Plunkett were uncooperative,
all Galloway and Lahey had to do was contact Alonzo/Jones attorneys, who would
have produced the pair in court as exhonerating witnesses. Failing that, the
attorneys would at least have taken the statements of Galloway and Lahey by
affadavit. Lastly, Gillespie, in his Letter of October 12, 1897 wrote that "two
left here last night", or, the evening of the 11th. The People's Voice article,
appearing on October 30, even allowing for copy of the Rawlins Journal on which
it was based, means that Galloway and Lahey had nearly 3 weeks in Deadwood, more
than ample time to see Alonzo/Jones --or arrange a jailbreak.
Back From The Grave:1.) After Harry was arrested, pled out, and was
sentenced to 18 months in the Sundance Jail in 1887, Crook County Sheriff James
Ryan measured Harry as being 5' 9" Tall. When Frank Jones was arrested in
Montana and transported to the Larence County Jail in 1897, Sheriff Matt
Plunkett measured Frank as being 5' 10 1/2" Tall. Unless either or both Sherrif
Plunkett or Sherrif Ryan was incompetent and couldn't work a tape measure, Harry
in Sundance was a different person than Frank in Deadwood.2.) Montana
Stock Detective W. D. Billy Smith arrested Harry in 1887 and transported Frank
Jones to Deadwood in 1897. In court appearances in Montana, Deadwood, and Belle
Fourche, Smith never informed the court that Jones was, in reality, Longabaugh.
The reason for Smith failing to identify Jones as Longabaugh to three courts was
that they were not the same person.(Continued)
As I understand it the 1916 Etta Longabaugh letter has yet to be produced.
French identified the Pinkerton agent who came to see him as “Byrne or
Burns”, not Murray. Siringo later identified the agent as Murray. French
also stated that the agent came investigating the passing of bills from the
Wilcox robbery or as the agent stated the “Green Mountain” robbery,
not to apprehend Cassidy. On showing French a picture that he had on him of a
group of men, French identified one of them as the man he knew as Jim Lowe.
French never refuted this, but stated that a few years later, after Cassidy and
Longabaugh were in So. America that on seeing a picture of Cassidy printed in
the paper said: “Jim’s portrait was labeled under the name of Butch
Cassidy, a name by which he seems to have been known on both continents.”
Roscoe:David Gillespie in his 12 Oct. 1897 letter to his mother never wrote the
name “Alonzo” but referred to him as: “A young fellow, a
friend of mine who worked for Al Reader up until the middle of July. . . “
That he was referring to “Harry Alonzo” is not only implicit in his
statement, but also borders on explicit when the People’s Voice Article of
10 Oct 1897 is taken into consideration. In that article it clearly names
“Harry Alonzo” as the person who “formerly worked for Reader
& Co’s cattle outfit” and was arrested for the Belle Fourche
robbery. Details from the article, which was originally published in the Rawlins
Journal shows evidence that the writer was intimately familiar with the matter
and possibly Gillespie’s letter.
RoscoeDan’s to busy on the old blog to be bothered by you right now.
3.) There is no evidence that Butch himself ever used the alias Jim Lowe.
Murray, reputed to "never forget a face" while a corrections officer, assistnt
warden, police chief, and superintendant of Pinkerton's Chicago Office had BCs
1894-96 prison mug shot and description. Not likely he would confuse Jim Lowe
with BC. French said Murray showed him a photo of a group of men, some standing
and some sitting, not the mug shot for identification. Murray, not French, said
Lowe was Butch. Why would Murray, seriously asmatic, go to WS without back up to
arrest Butch and then plead lack of back up as the reason for not arresting
him?4.) You're quite correct, the 1910 lead is false. Jimlyn knows
that. He's on the right track, not a false trail.
Back From The Grave:1.) David Gillespie, author of the October 12, 1897
letter to his mother never wrote the name "Alonzo" or "Longabaugh" but only
referred to his "young friend" a curiosity since Harry was nearly considerably
older than Gillespie at that time. Decades after the event Gooldy, Gillespie's
brother-in-law, linked Gillespie and Longabaugh, but also said when Longabaugh
returned to Little Snake "no one knew his name." Gooldy, not Gillespie, is the
source for the information that Gillespie received the Bliss/DeYoung photo.
Gillespie's son, also named David, wrote after his father died, that Gillespie
and Longabaugh were linked, confirming Gooldy, who was still alive at the time.
Nothing in the Pinkerton documents indicates Gillespie was the informant for
Ethel/Longabaugh/Place/ Bliss/DeYoung information.2.)Gooldy is the
source for "information" that in a letter accompanying the Bliss/DeYoung photo
"Longabaugh" said Ethel was his wife and that he "met her in TX". That
Longabaugh in fact married her in TX or that he married her using the name Harry
Place is unwarranted speculation, assumes facts not in evidence, and relies on
third hand hearsay.(Continued)
Marianne: I respect you not wanting to share, especially with how things have
gotten twisted. It's just like the story of the family's trip to Mexico/Cortez
CO for Silas' health, I've seen the original version, and every time I hear of
it again there are new details, which are then repeated and added on in the next
5) Yes Jim Lowe was a real person, but, as you know it was also an alias the
Butch used on occasion in New Mexico, or at least that is what Capt. French
always thought. By the way, I wouldn't put too much stock in the
post 1910 New York Ethel Place sightings, they are all dead ends. Ethel
continued to use her given name after she came back, but dropped the Place
Roscoe - thanks for the corrections.1) David Gillespie in addition to
others identified Longabaugh as the Harry Alonzo that they knew in the Little
Snake River Valley. This was to both Pinkerton operatives and in later writings.
It was from Gillespie that the Pinkerton agency received one of the
DeYoung/Bliss photos.2)Actually Longabaugh used the alias Harry Place
before Buffalo and New York when he married Ethel ______ in Texas. Ethel used
this, Ethel Place,her actual married name until she returned to the US3&4)
Yes I wrote too hastily and confused Frank Jones with Frank Boyd. Who knows how
many people used the Frank Jones alias. There are probably a few alias Frank
Joneses running around today. Frank Boyd, on the other hand was a specific alias
Longabaugh used in SA, especially in Bolivia and Chile. Frank Boyd may serve as
a clue for you as to when and where Longabaugh brought Ethel back to the
Jim:I admire the thoughtful, considerate, respectful way in which
you are conducting your research and inquiries. Wonderful job! Every wish for
your continued success, and rest assured you have many fans eagerly awaiting
published results when you get to that point.
Number one:Am I satisfied with the info I have? Yes,the documention agrees with
what the family has said.Number two:I don't know what early life given name that
she used, I only know what married name she lived her later life with.Efforts are ongoing researching her children,however I would not feel
comfortable approaching them without introconvertable proof.I don't know if they
know of their mother's past.She called herself Etta Longabaugh in a letter in
1916.Thanks for the inquiry Butch.
Jim:You raise a very valid question. I'd like to know if you are
satisfied in your own mind that you've discovered the true identity of Etta
Place? Also, are you able to tell us if Mrs. H. A. Place, Ethel Place, and Etta
Place are the same person? If so, is she the figure in the Bliss/DeYoung photo?
The Cholila photos? If it was Harry Longabaugh on the Little Snake in the 1908
Pinkerton document, where did he go from there? Is there any significance to the
fact that after Ethel's return to the US, she begins to be called "Etta"? Just
Has everyone forgotton Etta Place? Surely if Sundance got out of SA, he would
have contacted her.
(Continued)4.) Harry most certainly did not use the name "Frank Jones"
post Argentina. If it was truly Harry, he used the name "Frank Boyd", as the
Pinkerton Documents clearly state.5.) Jim Lowe was a real person, 5'
6" tall, not 5 ' 9" tall as was Butch. You know this perfectly well from the
Pinkerton Documents. He gave his profession as "waiter" when arrested and
sentenced for bank robbery, and served a sentence in Stillwater Prison, at
exactly the same time that "Gold Teeth" Duffy was at Stillwater and who
listed himself as a "sailor". Duffy subsequently used a written reference from
the Stillwater area when arriving in Argentina.Really, Mr. Buck, we
all expect better of you. Why not come out in the open and debate real issues
straight up like a man? There is precious little point in hiding behind an
alias.We've done this before. Lets get it on again, for the
entertainment of the audience. Comprende?
Back From The Grave:1.) The first connection between Harry Alonzo as the
alias of Harry Longabaugh was in Frank Murray's December 3, 1900 letter to Frank
Hadsell --scant proof that Harry was known as Alonzo in Little Snake in 1897.2.)Harry Place does not appear for the first time in Texas, 1900, as you
blogged, but on the Hotel Register of the Invalids Hotel in Buffalo, January,
1901 (If you believe the Dimaio notebook entry referencing the April 3, 1902
mail cover).3.) Frank Jones first appears as the name that was was
assigned to the man in custody in Deadwood, captured in Montana, September,1897.
The second use was in the 1901 letter to Frank Murray from a Montana celebration
committee member stating that Longabaugh was reputed to be one of the "Jones
Boys". The last use of Frank Jones linked to Longabaugh was the January 26, 1906
Pinkerton Memo relating to a mail cover on Samanna, but "Frank Jones" was listed
merely as an alias attributed to Longabaugh by the Pinkertons as a result of
their belief Longabaugh was "Frank Jones" in Deadwood, not because Harry used
the name. (Continued)
If a professiomal criminal wishes to protect those he loves from the rath of
other human degration and scorn.........Even in today's wiz bang computer facts
tecnology.....anyone, yes anyone can have many Birth Certificates, be a part of
many Census reports, make up many alis' and thereby filmly confuse anyone
wishing to pursue him or her.Look to history for these very real
examples of people going straight after a life of crime.Nothing on
planet Earth will straighten a stray like the love of their children and wife
(Luzernia). Just a sudo-factual observation. I believe Sundance is
looking down delighted to know he still can generate attention, affection and
dedication. I think he revels in his decendants both step and biological. Henry
Longabaugh, Bill Long and the Sundance Kid are one in the same. Are
we or you, so convinced in our our beliefs that we cannot see that every family,
has a black sheep?
I haven't shared nor do I intend to share my sources. Every thing I have all my
life known as true gets twisted and totally turned around.
Marianne: I would be interested in your sources for Bill Long working for I.G.
Robison during 1900-1908. I'm sure you have shared them with Jerry and group,
but others of us have yet to see them. Of course you know that other
sources place Bill Long in Utah during the 1900 - 1908 time frame also.
Other people being mistaken for either Butch or Sundance was more common. A
notable example was in 1904 when a gambler by the name of Ed Holton was in Salt
Lake City dealing faro and several detectives were convinced that they had
spotted Cassidy some even sought out arrest warrants and contacted the Governor
to see if rewards that were posted were still valid. This kind of mistake
was repeated over and over for the next forty years as different people claimed
to have spotted Butch. This incident may have been an early sighting of William
T. Phillips who would later become famous for his Cassidy impersonation. One
story has it that he even fooled Lula Parker into thinking he was Cassidy..
As to Ben Kilpatrick using Harry Longabaugh's name, it seems to be sheer
accident. When captured in St. Louis after the Wagner robbery Ben refused to
give his name, but when Laura Bullion was questioned they found among her
personal effects Longabaugh's description in a notebook and she later claimed
that she had found the name Harry Longabaugh on the fly of a pocket notebook she
found in Ben's coat pocket. When she asked him about it, he just shrugged it
off. Apparently she might have thought he used the name Harry Longabaugh but he
wouldn't tell her. Butch is a different story. One name he used was
Jim Lowe, which apparently others had used and this created some confusion in
and around Alma, New Mexico when Charlie Siringo was there in 1901. Some people
swore that a Jim Lowe was in the area organizing some sort of gang, while Butch,
Harry, and Etta were already in Argentina.
Snowflake: Interesting ideas on the alias' But unlikely in the case of
Longabaugh. Harry Alonzo as he was known in the Little Snake River Valley
has only been identified as Longabaugh.Harry Place, Longabaugh used in
Texas in 1900 and on through to Argentina. He probably intended to keep this as
a permanent alias Enrique being the Spanish equivalent to Harry or Henry. Frank Jones Longabaugh started using after his flight from Argentina. There is
no record of others using these alias'.
Ross has both email and phone. So does Marilyn Grace.
Marianne I have tried to find your phone number but have no way to contact you.
Is there anyone who was previously involved in the project who would have it? I
know we cannot post personal information here.
A Flakey Idea:Is it possible that there are multiple indivuals using
the names Harry Longabaugh, Harry Alonzo, Harry Place, Enrique Place, and Frank
Jones?It appears that someone using one of the alias' listed above
was in South America between March, 1901 and November, 1908, but made frequent
trips back to the US. It also appears that Bill Long was in Fremont in the late
fall of 1901, fighting with Morrell over water rights. Within a month of the
fight a Pinkerton report says "Longabaugh" was in Utah. When Ben Kilpatrick was
arrested for the Wagner Train Robbery the name "Harry Longabaugh" was written in
his pocket diary together with a physical description.Isn't it
reasonable to believe some sort of connection exists between the SA Longabaugh
and the Utah/Montana Longabaugh? It needn't be Bill Long, of course, for the
connection to be quite real. Utah is a big state so Bill might very well not be
the Utah Longabaugh of the Pinkerton report. Then again ....Probably
just another flakey idea.
Michelle, It would be nice to meet you, you probably know where I live if not
ask me. You know there is proof Bill long was never in South America at the time
Mr. Nickle is refering, Grandpa was in Emery County building fence for a son in
law Clara's husband I.G Robison. It's another thing Mr. Nickel choose's to
ignore. Dosen't anyone find it interesting that all this information has come up
when the people involved have passed on? I belive he was born in Wyoming in Grey
bull basin, wild territory Mr. Nickle in those days babies weren't born with
birth certificats, Like Native American babies there born any where, no
hospitals no adress's but still people and babies.
One thing I am surprised no one picked up on in the article is Dan Buck's
admittance that he relied heavily on the so-called rumor-riffed Pinkerton files
to make his case......he ended up digging up two entirely different guys in
Bolivia. Now as to Bill Long being Harry from PA - can you prove that he was
not? "Harry" was the only one of the Longabaugh children whose baptismal date
was not entered into the family bible and by the time he headed west he was well
past the age to be baptised and thus recorded. Nice to hear from you Marianne -
I am meeting a lot of my cousins on this project and will look you up next time
I am up in Utah in May.
Hooray for Marianne Defa! Don't let your bullying cousins push you around. There
is no reason that Evinda's information should be discounted any more than anyone
else, except that it disagrees with his theory. I see Jerry is perfectly willing
to cherry pick what he wants to believe, and attack anyone else's information. I
believe that both Luzernia and Evinda both believed that William Henry Long was
born in 1860 by what Long himself told them. This coincides with the 1880 census
where he is listed as age 21. There was no reason for him, in 1880 to be lying
about his age or birthplace.
We can thank Evinda for knowing the exact day Feb 2, Bill long was born, which
is stated on the death certificate. Eveinda knew the exact day probably
because they celebrated it each year on that day. Al that has been know about
Harry Longabaugh birth is the year he was born, 1867, but not the day. The
first record for Harry Longabaugh was when he was enumerated on the 1870 census
as a three year old. The exact day or town where he was born is not known. The
1870 census does not have him listed on the same line with the longabaughs but
with the Wilcox family instead. It appears the census taker made a mark that he
should have been on the line with the Longabaughs. Is there any significance to
this? I don’t know. Why are the rest of the Longabaugh sibling’s
birthdays known but not his?
CorrectionEvinda was my mother's aunt not first cousin. They were very
near the same age and grew up like sisters.
Evinda also sated his mother’s name was Anne which is true because
he was the daughter of Anne Place Longabaugh. I will be glad to email you the
marriage license, the death certificate and the census records if you would like
them. Evinda was also off by three or four when she gave the
information for Luzernia’s birth on the death certificate. I will be glad
to send you this information too if you would like.If you can tell
us where Bill Long was born and the name of his parents, and it is not the
Longabaughs, you are the only person in the word that can.I would
love to communicate with you and show you information that has not been made
public yet. Please contact me.Jerry
Dear Marianne On the fifteenth of Nov 1894 a marriage license was issued
for the marriage of William Henry Long and Luzernia Morrell. William Long
himself gave his age as twenty-seven thus being born in 1867. The 1910, 1920
and the 1930 census records also show he was born in 1867. Bill long’s
death was the Nov 27, 1936. The informant for the death certificate was Evinda
Merkley, Bill Long’s daughter and your grandmother. The year she gave for
Bill Long’s birth was 1860, which was used on the headstone.
Evinda’s information on that death certificate is some of the best
information there is and I am proud that she was my mother’s first cousin.
Evinda also stated he was born in the Big Hole Basin of Wyoming. This is
very informative but he was not born there because the Big Horn Basin was not
settled until after 1879. Both Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid lived and
worked in the Big Horn Basin.
I am a blood relative to Bill Long. His daughter Evinda did know the correct
dates she certainly did know her mother birth and death days. Mr nickle has read
to many comic books!! Grow up!!!
How a person can believed that a William Henry Long born in 1867 can be the same
person as a William Henry Long born in 1859 is beyond me.
The notion the belief that William Henry Long is the Sundance Kid is akin to
belief in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ is somewhere between ludicrous and
blasphemous.Perhaps the appropriate analogy would be that it's akin
to belief in the tooth fairy.
Now about these censuses, I looked at them and noticed that in 1900 he gave his
birth place as Montana. If my map is correct, the Big Horn Basin in Wyoming
borders on Montana. Obituary says he was raised in Wyoming, Hmmm, let me think
here. . . the William Long at Camp Carlin in 1880 was living with his
brother-in-law Henry Parker who was a wagon master working out of Camp Carlin .
. . I think I read somewhere that Camp Carlin supplied all of the Forts to the
North and West of Cheyenne, which I would assume would cover Wyoming and Montana
. . . Hmmm. Bingo! It looks like we have a match!!!Now on the other
censuses he is listed as being born in Idaho, interesting, do you think that
maybe he told his wife to say that to the census takers?? and how about the
England, France, US,, Missouri, and Kentucky that were used for his parents
birthplaces?? It looks like he was possibly hiding from something, but what? Or
maybe his family just didn't know???
Guess Who errs in the assumption that William Henry Long himself gave the
information himself on the census records. The truth is that usually the wife in
the household was the one who talked with the census taker, and not the husband.
It is also possible that children of the couple could have been the one the
census taker talked to. There is no way of determining, for sure, who provided
the information.As far as the 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930 censuses
all agreeing with each other. I looked at them and they do not. In 1900 he is
listed as age 36, whereas in the 1910, 1920, and 1930 he is listed as 43, 53,
and 63 respectively, which I guess matches his marriage license. I would assume,
since he was not living with the family in 1900 the he or one of the other "log
choppers" he was with gave the information, while in the other censuses it was
probably his wife.
I have to disagree with Michelle, the 1880 census is very relevant, as is also
the 1900 census. Mona's comments about the census records are correct. if there
is a likely William Long in the 1880 census (Camp Carlin, WY) who fits the
general profile of William Henry Long, he MUST be eliminated before any of the
Long family's claims can be considered seriously.
So I looked up the William H. Long at Ft. San Jacinto, Texas. This man doesn't
seem to be the same William Long from the 1880 Census at Camp Carlin. He also
doesn't fit the information in the Parker-Long Rootsweb family tree. This
William Long is from Shamokin, Northumberland Co. PA and appears to be the son
of Joseph and Louisiana Long (see 1880 census of Shamokin. The William Long at
Camp Carlin was the son of Alexander LOng and Mary Jane Stafford of Fayette Co.,
PA. So Where to from here? Could William Henry Long of Utah be the same
man as the William Long of Camp Carlin, Laramie Co., WY?
"daveday" said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." This
claim isn't extraordinary if you've lived with the informatin all your life.
It's only extraordinary if you've lived with and believed the traditional story
of who Long/Sundance was. People don't seem to like having "the way it's always
been" changed. The claim that Jesus was born of a virgin is pretty
extraordinary, with no extraordinary (or even ordinary) evidence to back it up.
Yet millions will swear that it is true. Jerry's research has been both
thorough and responsible. I grew up next door to Jerry, we're first cousins.
I'm sure he wouldn't waste his time researching and writing a book for the
"sucker that's born every minute" that "un huh sure" seems to be refering to. I
think you may be surprised, perhaps even impressed, when his evidence is
presented - whether you chose to call it ordinary or extraordinary or something
Back from the graveThe William Henry long in this story was born in 1867
(the year Harry Longabaugh was born) not in 1859 as the William Henry Long in
the 1880 Laramie census was. You can verify this using the 1894 marriage
license, 1900 census record, 1910 census record, 1920 census record, and the
1930 census record. William Henry long himself gave the information for all of
these records and is the primary source. The headstone date comes from the
death certificate. This information was given by his daughter Evinda. She
obviously did not know his correct age when he died. Evinda also did not know
the correct age of her mother Luzernia either. Luzernia’s headstone
date was incorrect by four years.
Let's do a little math "The Sundance Kids," in 1880 Harry Longabaugh/Bill Long
was too young to be an outlaw or a farmer in Utah. That census record is
irrelevant to the matter at hand. Now from Anonymous we have another William H
Long from Galveston. Without knowing our family history, dates, etc., it is
impossible for most people to follow our timeline. I am sure that the hundreds
of thousands of William H. Longs in the USA and abroad that we are not related
to but that are referred to appreciate your interest.
1900 United States Federal Census Record for William H Long William
H Long Fort San Jacinto, Galveston, Texas Pennsylvania White Sergeant
Thanks for the link to the RootsWeb Family Tree. I don't see much on William
Long however. Only that he died after 1900 possibly in Texas, but I don't see
him in the 1900 or 1910 census. Is there a census record for him in 1900 or 1910
so that he can be eliminated from William Henry Long possibilities?
RootsWeb's Family Trees parker-long
Please explain how the William Long in the 1880 census of Laramie County,
Wyoming is not William Henry Long. Both are about the same age: William Long age
21 born in Pennsylvania in 1880 census and William Henry Long born 1860 as
listed on headstone. Also, I think I read somewhere that William Henry Long
claimed he was from either Wyoming or Pennsylvania.
Per the 1880 census, Harry Longabaugh, age 13, was boarding with neighbors in
Pennsylvania, near his parents' home. The Sundance Kid (2009), Donna Ernst, p.
9.Harry Longabaugh was the Sundance Kid; William Henry Long was a
The William Henry that shows up in the 1880 census in Camp Carlin is not the
William Henry Long in question.
Mona, William Long shows up on the 1880 census in Camp Carlin, Laramie
County, Wyoming, near Cheyenne living with his sister and brother-in-law.
Well I ran across a man a few years back in Richfeild we swaped Butch and
Sundance stories and showed each other old photo's. I showed him a photo that I
have of a family member (My Grandmother was a Parker but not Circleville), he
told me it looked like Butch's twin so we talked for a long time about the
history of these two men that were surely enigma's. He told me his theory and I
sure liked it. They hav never foundthe bodie's of these two men that people have
looked for, well for a centery well here it goes, they are still alive that
would put them both over 140 years in age so yea there we go, they are still out
there robbing the rich and giving to the poor.Oh and by the way they
didnt die in South America, if the Pinkertons or other law enforcment up here
couldnt get them no one could.....
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I don't see it yet, and I
probably won't or it would have already surfaced.
I'd also like to add another story. A woman who knew the Parker family very
well as a child tells a story. She was really good friends with Butch's dad.
She was often at the Parker home. One day she was at their home and an older
man was there. Mr. Parker introduced this man to her as "my son Bob." She said
she knew ALL the members of the Parker family really well and she had NEVER seen
this man before. Of course, "Bob" was Butch's real name.
Dear Bender: Where does that come from? I do NOT believe in UFOs or Bigfoot
and have NEVER said so. (I also know the proper use of an apostrophe.)
However, I do believe in the three Nephites. Just where you got that absurd
information is unknown. Of course, being a sincere seeker of truth, I'm always
willing to listen to any credible evidence. I don't make silly, ignorant jabs
at others without any basis.I do believe Lula Parker's story about
her brother. She was known to be an honest woman. She wrote her book because
she didn't want Butch to become a folk hero. She wanted young people to know
that he lived an unhappy life as a hunted and haunted man.She also
continued to hide the location of Butch's grave. I think it is entirely
possible that the story of the dog's grave was used to keep that secret. Of course, we'll never know unless Butch's grave is actually identified.
But, I believe Lula. Dan Buck is not nearly so credible. In fact, it wouldn't
surprise me if "Bender" is Buck.
PS: I found Luzernia (Susan) Long in Wayne County Utah on the 1900 Census. She
was living near her first husband's family. But her husband, William Henry
Long, is not enumerated with her. I haven't done an exhaustive search yet for
him. Could it be he is missing because he was on the run from the law? Mmmm,
this story is intriguing.
I LOVED THE STORY! Great job Geoff!
The article was short on details but I'm assuming the family has combed the
early census records to establish a trail for one/both men. I see Harry
Longabaugh on the 1880 Census working as a hired hand in Chester Co., PA. If
William Henry Long can be located concurrently then we would know they are two
different people. If not, chances are greater (though not for sure) that Harry
& William are the same person. So if exhaustive searches are made of the US
Census every 10 years beginning in 1870, and Harry and William are never found
separately, that would add to the evidence in favor of them being the same man.
Cats is certainly not a credible source. She admittedly believes in Bigfoot,
UFO's and the 3 Nephites.
Cats,In her book Butch Cassidy My Brother, Betenson said that Butch "died
in the Northwest in the fall of 1937," per a letter received by the family.
Betenson, of course had no way of knowing if the information was correct or
not.She also tells a variation on the Circleville property story:
instructions to workmen to not disturb the corner of the property where her son
Mark's dog Hummerdo was buried led to "the rumor that Butch Cassidy was buried
at the ranch."
My father talked to Lula Parker when we lived in Circleville and she said that
her brother had come home and lived quietly and a regular life. My dad is a
skeptic and he believed her. She was completely credible. I have no doubt at all
that she was telling the truth. The problem that people have is that
the movie and Hollywood are so ingranined in us that we believe the place where
lies and illusions are created every day. Just because it is on the big screen
doesn't make it true, but I find myself getting sucked in at times and believing
the revisionist history that sometimes comes out of there. The red flag is the
motive--solely entertainment and the acquisition of wealth. In my
opinion, Lula Parker gained nothing by sticking to her story, except credibility
and integrity. She never benefitted by it and lived very humbly, if I'm
remembering it correctly. By her telling her story and not receiving benefit,
her credibility, and therefore her story, greatly increases as far as I'm
I have followed this story and I think Mr. Nickle is really on to something big.
If he can put it all in a book and make a great profit for his work, hooray for
Capitalism! That is what America is all about... at least for the moment.Ezra Taft Benson quoted this often: "I hate the guys who criticize and
minimize the other guys whose enterprise has made the rise above the guys who
criticize and minimize the other guys." More power to you, Mr.
Nickle! Make us proud!!
I had a conversation with Dan Buck in the early nineties. He's so married to
his theory that Butch and Sundance died in South America, he won't even believe
Butch's sister who said that Butch came back and died in the States. The family
kept his grave secret. They didn't want it to turn into a shrine.A
professor from Dixie State told me an interesting story. He's from Circleville
and knew the Parker family growing up. When I told him about the conversation
with Buck, he just laughed. He said he knows FOR A FACT that Butch is buried on
the Parker ranch in Circleville. He said the town always wondered where Butch
was buried. Then the State did a construction project which ran across Parker
land. When they got to a certain point, the members of the Parker family ran
down and stood on that spot. They refused to budge and would not allow digging
to take place. THAT'S WHEN THE TOWN KNEW WHERE BUTCH WAS BURIED.I
think Lula Parker knew whether she had seen her brother or not. This story is
Growing up in Utah, you certainly hear a LOT of these stories about Butch
Cassidy and the Sundance Kid surviving the shootout and coming home. There's
enough circumstantial evidence to believe it may be possible, though I'm waiting
for proof before deciding for certain. Either way, it's a fascinating story.
I'm another Morrell kid, we all grew up on stories about "uncle" Bill Long. Why
is it so hard for you folks to believe that he did come home after his time in
South America, marry a nice widow and spend his remaining years giving the local
authorities grief? Talk to Butch Cassidy's family, his sister swore that he
came home too.
is in the conflicting accounts. Let history play itself out here. If there
are/were any hairs from the deceased around from the exhumed body, they
will/would tell more. A person's hair does not decay nor disintegrate over time.
DNA testing may prove or disprove its claims. However, it is a good story,
nevertheless. Persistence just may pay off. Let it unfold and see if there is
some credence to what Jerry Nickle states, he may be onto something being his
close tie to Long/Longbaugh. Give him the benefit of his effort and see the
outcome either way. This is real life, not Hollywood. A lot of times,
genealogists are just as persistent to find out who belongs to whom and allow
the truth to surface, once and for all. Look at the Mountain Meadows Massacre
episode. It was not what it appeared. One woman, (A.B.) persisted to find out
what happened back then to her ancestors, and she found a lot of information
that resolved a lot of the controversy and gave those left behind some
resolution, and a published book. Don't prejudge this, let the mystery it
unfold. Be supportive.
DN story: "One of the [Pinkerton] reports, a copy of which Nickle provided to
the Deseret News, indicates that Longabaugh visited a hospital in Buffalo, N.Y.,
in 1901, where he was treated for a bullet would to the leg suffered 'in the Far
West.' Nickle maintains that the injury is identical to the one Long sustained
in the Cortez shootout."Unless I am mistaken, the referenced
Pinkerton document is "Report J.T.C. from Phila Apr 3/1902," which states that
Longabaugh "was in hospital last Summer 1901 in Buffalo NY pistol shot wound he
said he got in extreme West and said had relatives in Montclair, Pa." No
mention of the location of the wound.
Nickle says: "Just buy my book and all will be revealed to you." Barnum was right. There IS one born every minute.
he's buried up at Sundance Ski resort. otherwise why would it be named that.
Robert Redford played the sundance kid part. it all fits.