Part 5: Health care — a right?

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  • free market
    Dec. 21, 2009 4:04 p.m.

    If we actually had a "free" market there would be no laws restricting medication use. Then I could freely self medicate.

    Also, the number of doctors in the US has been held at low numbers by lobbying efforts of the AMA. They also oppose letting other healthcare professionals compete directly with Dr services such as RN's and Midwives.

  • Roy
    Dec. 19, 2009 4:31 a.m.

    It is not the Feds job to deal with Health Ins. So says the US Constitution, the 10th amendment. This is therefore a state by state issue.

    How do we buy auto insurance? Let's "divorce" health insurance from employers and buy our own. Let the free market compete for our business. Prices will come down, especially if there is tort reform. We will not have to change insurers when we change jobs. Pre-existing conditions will be less of a problem if group sizes are not reduced to individual employer groups. Let there be statewide groups. Let people buy according to their risk tolerance and needs and insurance company options.

    The Feds need to repeal their unconstitutional laws and let the states govern where the US Constitution does not mandate Fed involvement. Government is best when its closest to the people.

  • right rhetoric
    Nov. 19, 2009 4:30 a.m.

    hatch is wrong, health care as self care is a right and people have always been able to use whatever they could find to care for thier injuries and ailments.

    If the right realy wants to make everything a free market then they need to think a little harder. If we wanted no governemnt intervention in health care then you would have to make all drugs legal so we can self medicate as a natural freedom of the market to choose not ot see a Dr at all.

    I don't think that is a good idea so as long as the government has to be involved to some degree it needs to be involved enough to fix it's unintended consequences.

  • srj
    Nov. 6, 2009 4:55 p.m.

    People who think that healthcare should stay just the way it is are probably the people who are doing just fine with the current system. In other words, it's the attitude of: "I got mine and that's all that matters."

  • sa
    Oct. 31, 2009 4:43 a.m.

    We already have every form of government that is needed == Champus, Baby-Your-Baby, Medicaid (even for illegals), Medicare, etc. Why do we need to socialize medicine? It is for governmental control.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 30, 2009 3:31 p.m.

    Yes, I am sure our Founding Fathers of our country meant for us to pay more for healthcare than 33 other nations with better healthcare.

    It was also probably their intentions to see a system where people paid taxes towards a system that rewards criminals with free healthcare....

    Maybe we should all earn free healthcare in the current system by breaking the law.

    Or maybe we can change the law and get affordable QUALITY healthcare for all those who are obeying the law. NO PRE EXISTING CONDITIONS Discrimination.

  • dave
    Oct. 28, 2009 6:59 p.m.

    Cicero said that by nature we have certain (inalienable)rights, but health care was not one of them. Our Founding Fathers best summarized our rights to life, not necessarily a healthy one(we have to earn that ourselves), liberty(which has always been threatened by big government and the ignorance of the people), and the pursuit of happiness(which will only be realized by a moral and value-based people). Entitlements must end.

  • Mike in Texas
    Oct. 28, 2009 10:28 a.m.

    Rights Schmites! The framers talked of inalienable rights, i.e. rights inherent or given by a higher power. But we "the people" are also independant moral agents, and as such we can also collectively choose to grant new "rights". And, we can also choose how those rights will be implemented.

    Regarding Health care, we have long tried a the insurance corporate market based approach And, for far too many Americans, this profit based approach has not worked well enough and has not been adequately available or affordable.

    If some our good citizens could be a little less concerned about what the evil "socialistic" goverment might do, and a little more concerned about what many profit motivated, self interested corporations are actually doing, the county would be better off. Because thanks to those corporate interests we now have in power the best politicians that insurance company "money can buy", and I mean both Democrats and Republicans.

    It seems to me, that the inherent "right to life" is a sufficient basis for us to add, based upon our own moral agency, a right to reasonable access to affordable health care for all citizens, not just those who can afford it.

  • Walt
    Oct. 27, 2009 12:33 p.m.

    Hm-m-m, reading the comments posted so far, I discern that the Utah Republican answer to those who--through whatever circumstances--lack the resouces to pay for medical care, should just put their child's picture and a short statement of need on a jar that they leave at the local 7-Eleven.

  • Get Real
    Oct. 26, 2009 6:19 p.m.

    The Republicans want Health Savings Accounts for no other reason than because conservative Republican tycoons control Wall Street, and they want to "manage" other people's money! You know, the way Burnie Madoff managed other people's money! Madoff is the poster child for Republican healthcare plans!

  • Re; Anon 3:47am
    Oct. 25, 2009 8:07 p.m.

    You were up too late, dude!

    Break the law to get healthcare?

    Why not just get a job? I know it's not easy these days, but better than being in the clink.

    The Repubs plan is actually not bad - health savings accounts. You wanna go to the ER everytime you get the sniffles? Fine, you'll soon deplete your account. Let the docs and pharmacuetical companies compete for our medical bucks like everyone else and get the lawyers out of the process with their frivilous lawsuits.

    You wanna sue me for dumping hot coffee in your lap? Good luck.

    Health savings accounts are the way to go. Let's bring some accountability back into the program.

  • Eye in the news
    Oct. 25, 2009 11:07 a.m.

    To Anonimous
    You are right
    "If the Healthcare doesnt kill you, the healthcare bills will or the insurance company will by delaying coverage"
    For cheap medicine or medical and dental care, You can go to Mexico or Canada.
    How that works?

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 25, 2009 3:47 a.m.

    The current healthcare system is you either have to be rich or a criminal to afford to get good health care.

    If the Healthcare doesnt kill you, the healthcare bills will or the insurance company will by delaying coverage!

    We are all paying toward healthcare for criminals with our taxes and that is ok with the GOP.

    Republicans reward those who break the law with healthcare and say its fine, do not change the system.

    Meanwhile millions who do obey the law get punished (do not get healthcare).

    So everyone go break the law! Its the Republican way!

  • Eyes in the news
    Oct. 25, 2009 12:24 a.m.

    We live in a society. We share buildings, classrooms, restaurants, bathrooms, machines,and some many things. We share the environment. When people get sick all of us can get sick. When people will get ill you have a big risk to get ill too. You deny medical care to a waitress well that sick waitress will bring you a meal and you will eat it. Now,swine flue is a national emergency. Should the government stop given free vaccination too. Your selfish way of thinking regarding the health of all Americans need to stop. You selfish way of thinking does not work. Change is coming.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 24, 2009 5:41 p.m.

    Insurance is not a right.

    It's a good or service that is purchased.

  • anon
    Oct. 24, 2009 5:29 p.m.

    Anyone who doesn't think we need a change in our healtcare system has never had a preexisting condition and tried to get insurance. One diagnosis and you are esentially branded for life. If you are diagnosed with depression forget for the rest of your life being able to buy insurance whether you can afford it or not, you will have no choice. Why on earth do we put our health in the hands of insurance companies whose only goal is to make money. They don't care what you need. I find it incredible that people would rather trust a for- profit company. We have all been brainwashed into thinking that anyway things are done in America is better.How ignorant we are. My son was in the er in California and it cost $3500. Sure we can all get emergency health care but you can also be in debt for a long time plus stressout over your bills. I guess if you've never been laid off, never had a pre-existing condition, never had an accident and never spent $25000 a year on premiums alone then yeah lets keep it how it is.

  • Question
    Oct. 24, 2009 5:05 p.m.

    To: "To question"

    Just because someone is against a free-for-all health care system doesn't mean he/she is for the bank bailout.

  • To question
    Oct. 24, 2009 3:44 p.m.

    The biggest decision of the economic recovery will be made in the next six months, and Barack Obama will have almost nothing to do with it.

    Forget the debate over TARP, and never mind the questions about a second stimulus. This decision is about when to pull out $1 trillion that’s propping up the U.S. banking system. And it will be Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and his Fed colleagues who make the call.
    Once again the transfer of the nation tax payers money will be going to the Federal Bank mostly to the wealthy. Now we are we going to do? and we still debating given medical care for the American people?

  • Question
    Oct. 24, 2009 9:13 a.m.

    Why not "access to affordable health care is a right"?

    Why does everything have to be FREE, FREE, FREE in the liberal mind?

    Nothing is free. Someone has to pay for it. And contrary to what was written earlier, 8% do not own 90% of the wealth. More like the top 10% PAY 80% of the taxes.

    You say people can't afford to pay ANYTHING for health care. Well, then it's not worth much to them, is it? That's why they go to the ER for anything and everything. Where is the control in the Democrat plan?

    Can't afford health care? No, not when you've got a monthly $200 cell phone bill to yak away saying nothing to no one. Or paying a $100 per month satellite dish bill with HBO, etc. Or a new ring tone every week at $5 a pop.

    Yeah, I'd give them free health care when they sell the plasma TV and 2007 vehicle and THEN still can't afford it. CAN'T afford or WON'T afford?

  • to:one wish | 2:11 p.m
    Oct. 24, 2009 9:11 a.m.


    Agreed and well put.


  • Anonymous
    Oct. 24, 2009 3:52 a.m.

    Look, The Republican way is you either have to be rich or a criminal to afford to get good health care. If the Healthcare doesnt kill you, the healthcare bills will!

    We are all paying toward healthcare for criminals with our taxes anyway and that is ok with the GOP.

    Was it the Republicans and Glenn Beck that say we shouldnt make healthcare affordable for the rest of us even though we pay the healthcare for criminals...

    Was it Glen Beck who said Charity is Communism because its a freebie and we cannot have that in our country?

  • Eye on the news
    Oct. 23, 2009 11:46 p.m.

    You never question the bailout of banks and other financial institutions with billions of dollars of tax payers money. Not only that but not even congress can ask a question to the Federal Bank how it was done or manage. Now that there is just a talk about medical care for the American citizens a major issue in all of our lives some of you question and are against it. What is wrong with you. The true is that no one can afford on its own medical insurance you either receive medical insurance through your employer or Medicaid. If you can't get it from one of the other. you will go without. There is not even 20 real millionaires in Utah most of us are not so what are you fighting for?

  • re: one wish
    Oct. 23, 2009 7:06 p.m.

    If only it were that simple. Over 50% of the people who don't have health insurance choose not to - they can afford it, they just don't want to pay for it.

    Almost ANYONE can afford major medical (high deductible). That prevents the situation you refer to with losing the home, etc.

    But cable TV, video games, booze, cell phones, cigs - all more important apparently.

    Not saying there isn't a need out there, but when every single person I see has a cell phone to the tune of $100 or so per month, it's just a matter of priorities. Or is a cell phone a right, too?

  • re - infidel | 5:12 p.m
    Oct. 23, 2009 5:31 p.m.

    obviously your name is correct because you can't be from around here - and you know nothing about economics and how an economy works.

    and are you really ok with 4 % of americans having 90% of the wealth?

  • infidel
    Oct. 23, 2009 5:12 p.m.

    funny how Obama is pushing the public health care option as great option for the unemployed---- all while he destroys the econonmy and creates, ironically, more unemployment. How conveeeeeeeeeenient! Sounds like a self-fulfilling policy to me. by the way, on a side note as I digress: how will Obama fund his massive expansion of the federal government when his soicalist policies dry up the tax base. Who will pay the taxes to fund the largest expansion of government in history after he has successfully destroyed the wealth of the US by redistributing their wealth. You can't multiply wealth by dividing it!!!!!!

  • KZ
    Oct. 23, 2009 2:55 p.m.

    No civilized first world country should turn people away from receiving life saving care because of money. I would not be here had I not received a lifesaving pacemaker during college. I was young, dumb and couldn't afford health insurance so I received a hospital bill for 100k. I was fortunate enough to be attending college in California and the county paid my bill. Now I am a successful HR professional who ENSURES people who work with my Company understand and appreciate their benefits. However, those benefits are staggeringly expensive. Especially for those people who make less than 30k a year. The choice becomes feeding a family or having healthcare. Most go for option a. I've heard the argument that people should just get better jobs with better insurance. That isn't an option any more and you have to look at those employees who manufacturing the "things" we use in this prosperous country (yes, even now). Don't they deserve the same healthcare as everyone else?

  • Have no problem
    Oct. 23, 2009 2:22 p.m.

    making it some sort of right. I also have no problem penalizing people who do not take care of their bodies and therefore subject their bodies to illnesses as a result, who knowingly engage in extreme activities and therefore choose to take more risk with their bodies, etc. I'm not paying for the head injury in a motorycle accident that could have been prevented if the idiot didn't wear a helmet. I'm not paying for lung cancer or heart disease caused by someone who chose to smoke cigarettes. I'm not paying for the medical bill of someone who chose to drive while under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. A lot of healthcare costs are preventable. Stupid decisions just aren't something that I want to have to pay for.

  • one wish
    Oct. 23, 2009 2:11 p.m.

    If I have one itsy bitsy wish...
    That is that every one of you that has insurance, and who is against having a national health care system that covers everyone....My wish is that you become unemployed thru no fault of your own, that you get sick to the tune of thousands of dollars, you loose your home, you have not medical coverage....
    Then and only then maybe you will have EMPATHY for the less fortunate...when YOU BECOME the less fortunate yourselves....
    In the mean time...until my wish comes true...Those kind of people can't have a real CHRISTIAN bone in their bodies, as Christians have empathy...

    How about you think about someone else for once...

  • infidel
    Oct. 23, 2009 1:40 p.m.

    health care is a right....and if you want it, you have the right to pay for it yourself. Liberal politicians have duped half of this country into believing that the government should take care of everyone. These lib politicians don't care about their constituents, they simply want their votes--and creating a dependent constituency who will always vote for continued freebies from the government benefits the liberal self-serving politician. Those who believe health care is a right are weak minded people who believe in this veal-calf; nanny-state, dependency creating philosophy. It is the antithesis of the Amreican ideal of freedom and liberty. Wake up sheeple!!! Your government is slowly destroying your liberty while yoking you to the government trough of dependency.

  • to "Your uneducated!"
    Oct. 23, 2009 12:22 p.m.

    How ironic. My uneducated? Maybe you should think about attending an English class at your local community college?

    In response to your post, you certainly do have the ability to go to school. Community colleges and public universities are subsidized with your property tax and you can attend one of those whenever you want.

    And, FYI, the only public school funds I've ever used were for K-12. I did not go to a public university, I never received any grants or scholarships from the government, and I happily repay my education that I received as a child through the taxes I pay now.

  • Wow .... softball player
    Oct. 23, 2009 9:27 a.m.

    It would be great if every old person were wealthy and had a loving also wealthy family surrounding them as it appears you assume. Sadly, that's not the case, many have neither money or family. They only have charity from their churches or government.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 23, 2009 3:51 a.m.

    Selfishness is Devilness.

    No one has a right to help someone less fortunate than they are with healthcare and pay their bill....

    You can buy anything with money...

    Without money you have no freedom! And do not ask for charity anymore. It is no longer found in America. Not in Healthcare in America unless it is a tax write off or lawsuit!

  • Axel
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:09 p.m.

    No one has a "right" to health care, not when someone else is footing the bill! It would be nice if we could afford to insure everyone, but that's unlikely without severe rationing. In this case, rationing means taking something away from one group in order to give it away free to another group. Pure and simple. In this case, the losers are seniors who are locked into Medicare. They basically have no choice, and the Obama administration has assured us they will be taking health care away from them.

  • To; You Owe Me Big Time
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:48 p.m.

    First of all, more than half of the population of the US pays NO income taxes - and you may well be one of them. So you may have in fact paid NONE of that guy's son's tuition.

    And while it may be true that 51% of the cost of a university's budget is funded by the public, let's not confuse that with education. The actual expenditure on real learning as opposed to bloated administrative overhead is pennies on the dollar. My classmates and I at the U figured out 25 years ago when I was there that with 50 of us in the class times cost per pupil at the time = over $400,000. We were being taught by a grad student making $1,000 for the semester.

    And you want these same people running our health care system???

  • A right?
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:40 p.m.

    Health care is a right, but to what extent? Basic, life-saving care? I would say yes.

    Someone else footing the bill for every check up? I would say no.

    Liberals have got to get it through their heads that there is no such thing as a free lunch. It's not mean-spirited to demand the free loaders (and yes, there are millions cheating the system) pick up the tab on something sometime.

  • To: Softball nothing....
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:36 p.m.

    Right. So Grandma, you just sit there with your bread and water and be grateful for what you have. You've never had it so good.

    Just because S.S. and Medicare is all she has doesn't mean it's the best she could have.

    Another poor argument.

  • Re: Public Option Now
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:03 p.m.

    It's true that Canada, UK, etc all get more for less on the surface. But the facts are that these systems are failing financially. Do a little research and you'll find that like our Social Security program, these programs simply won't survive if they stay on the path their on.

    I live 5 miles from the Canadian border and I see them coming over the border every day to get our US health care. So, they pay high taxes to get coverage, then come here and pay out of pocket to get care. And I'll debate that with anyone because I see it every day. There ARE waiting lists, there ARE people dying on them - I personally know them. So anyone who says otherwise is distorting the truth to sell something.

    As for the rest of the world thinking of us as fools, I really don't care, but I doubt it's true. They are all still calling for foreign aid, so we must not be too poorly thought of!

  • Rights - Letter of the law?
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:35 p.m.

    I wonder at the nit-picking as to what constitutes a right. As a Canadian we don't have to study the constitution or bill of rights to know that providing health care for all our citizens is a MORAL RIGHT.

  • Softball nothing ....
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:37 p.m.

    I'd have to agree with not yelling, my grandma would have nothing if she didn't have ss or medicare. I think you made their argument.

  • USA worse off than anyone
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:21 p.m.

    Americans are worse off than anyone. Even those happy idiots, who keep proclaiming to the press how they are satisfied with their private healthcare and don't want anyone messing with it, should go and read the fine print in their policies. They probably have a lifetime 'cap', which means that even one major illness could see them and their entire family cut off from insurance. They probably get their insurance through work. What do they think their fate will be if, say, at age 50 they find their company has gone 'belly up' and they are left with no insurance and they have any one of a number of pre-conditions that makes them uninsurable? They probably have a co-payment clause that will mean after a relatively small amount of hospital care, they are suddenly responsible for a large part of the bill.

    Americans should start demanding a Single Payer system, and start hard bargaining with Big Pharma to boot. Yes, the millionaire heart surgeons would scream, and the insurance companies would turn blue in the face and scream, and Big Pharma would turn blue and scream bloody murder, but Americans would be much better off.

  • Public Option now!
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:19 p.m.

    As for the obese, chain-smoking alcoholic, it's a shame that he got cancer, but you're already paying for his roads, his library, his post office and his kids' school. As I've also said before, part of living in a civilized society is chipping in a little for the benefit of the society as a whole. And affordable healthcare for everyone (something that insurance companies have FAILED to do) would benefit society as a whole.

    I wish Americans would read the comments of people living in other first world countries, or even from other Americans living abroad. I've never met a single person in a country with a national health system who would trade it for what Americans have. The systems work, Japan, the UK, France, Germany, Canada are NOT communist. All of them pay less and get more. And there's still a `debate' in America? My fellow Americans, you look like fools in the eyes of the world. Again.

  • bunk
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:17 p.m.

    Why do you assume that it will be a government run health care would be a failure? Government run health care is working in most industrialized countries. Why do you think it can be done here?

    The government does run things some things well. Whether you want to admit it or not, it's just the truth. I trust the government to provide better health care than the FOR PROFIT insurance industry. Besides, we already have the worst case scenario right now. If you have an illness, like my mother who has type 1 diabetes, you would know it by now. Her care is rationed here in the USA and she can't go anywhere else with a pre-existing condition. It's not the doctors that decide what type of care she gets, its the insurance company and trust me, they have set many limits on what care the doctors provide.

  • Your uneducated!
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:08 p.m.

    "who keep comparing this to other things your taxes pay for, such as roads and schools, you should stop. It's uneducated.
    Obama's plan will only insure those who currently do not have health insurance. Therefore, I must qualify to use this service. It makes sense that if I don't qualify for it, I shouldn't have to pay for it."

    No it's YOU that are uneducated! And have a serious case of "I'm entitled".


    But you are more than happy making me pay for your kids. It makes more sense that you return all I've paid for your lifestyle or else shut-up!

    Bring on public health care.

  • re - Anonymous | 5:13 p.m
    Oct. 22, 2009 5:50 p.m.

    ["The governemnt expects you to burn away your entire life's savings and fall below the poverty line before the fully kick in. Retire rich - die poor anyway"]

    you're old - why do you need all that money after you're dead? you should have to spend your own money before I pay for your health care. it's the people that are already poor that I'm worried about. you can take care of yourself if you have all that money.

    if you retire rich, why do you need medicare?

  • to - Law of consecration | 4:58
    Oct. 22, 2009 5:44 p.m.

    ["Socialism sets itself up as a replacement for God."]

    what? where do you get these weird ideas? i don't even get what you're saying it's so off-base.

  • to - Right or Privilege 4:21 pm
    Oct. 22, 2009 5:41 p.m.

    ["Education is not a right"]

    i think most people would disagree with you. i believe every child has a right to an education. the fact that you don't think so is very scary to me.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 5:13 p.m.

    My parents and grand-parents used Medicare.

    The governemnt expects you to burn away your entire life's savings and fall below the poverty line before the fully kick in.

    Retire rich - die poor anyway.

  • NZ resident former Utahn take
    Oct. 22, 2009 5:01 p.m.

    Okay, someone on here posted a ridiculous comment about wait times in NZ because they said they lived there for a year. I'm a former Utahn living in a suburb of Auckland and working in our District Health Board's administration. I can tell you right now that Americans (even if they've lived overseas) generally exaggerate their "bad" experiences about national health care.

    There are no 8 month waits--that is not even a possibility here due to our needing to comply with standards for the Health & Disability Commissioner. So when people make up exaggerated comments, it really bothers me because they are skewing the facts of universal health care. It works here. Yes, it has it's issues but it does not cost heaps of our tax dollars to do maintain it (we're not spending billions and trillions on a fake war so our money goes to the people. Why is that such a difficult thing for Americans to understand? My taxes here are $189.45 LESS than in Sandy! I have a very similar salary here in NZ and pay less taxes, just like the majority in NZ. It's just more efficient here.

  • Law of consecration
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:58 p.m.

    To some it might seem like the law of consecration is socialism. The difference is that God is at the center of the law of consecration. Socialism sets itself up as a replacement for God. Do you think the government has as much concern for you as God does?

    Oct. 22, 2009 4:51 p.m.

    Weak stuff. Social security, Medicare and Medicaid are already horrible programs. Maybe YOU need to go talk to your Grandma about how well that social security investment worked out for her. Probably rolling in the dough, right?

    Ask her about how well Medicare pays her medical bills, about how she is paying more and the government less over time. Ask her about why she needs a second "Medicare Gap" insurance to cover the things Medicare won't.

    Ask her about how well the Medicaid system covers her opulent life at the nursing home.

    Thanks for throwing me the softball. Your examples make my argument for me.

  • to "Not in Utah"
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:41 p.m.

    That's pretty presumptuous to assume that. You assume the same people that are against compulsion would be against the act they are being compelled to do.

    Many, many people in Utah would help you if you were lying in a ditch bleeding. Most of these people that would help you would be adamantly against being forced to help someone. I include myself in that group.

  • Not a right
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:35 p.m.

    How can health care be a right if someone else must provide it? It is essentially making the producers of health care slaves to the rest of society.

  • to all those
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    who keep comparing this to other things your taxes pay for, such as roads and schools, you should stop. It's uneducated.

    Anyone can use the things their taxes pay for. I can walk on the roads if I choose. I can go to school if I choose. I can use the police or fire stations if the need arises.

    Obama's plan will only insure those who currently do not have health insurance. Therefore, I must qualify to use this service. It makes sense that if I don't qualify for it, I shouldn't have to pay for it.

  • Right or Privilege
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:21 p.m.

    The article creates a false comparison of health care with education. Education is not a right; neither is a driver's license, a job, a house, a car, or any of a host of other "necessities" we crave. When a people begins to regard privileges bought for them by the blood, sweat and tears of their progenitors as rights, they have plunged deep into ingratitude and self-centeredness. It's a shame that so many of our fellow citizens have encased their intellect in leaden entitlements through which no energy or light can radiate.

    Oct. 22, 2009 4:11 p.m.

    If health care is not a right then all of you two faced people out there better go to your Grandma's and Grandpa's, your own parent's, basically anybody that is elderly and on social security and TELL THEM TO BUCK UP.


    YEAH ... I DIDN'T THINK SO ... no one wants to do that, but that's the argument many of you are making.

    WAKE UP PEOPLE BECAUSE WE NEED THIS! This doesn't have to be as complicated as the politicians want you to believe. EXPAND MEDICARE! If it's good enough for the elderly that we all love and owe so much to, WHY ISN'T IT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ALL OF US?

    Health care reform doesn't make us a socialist society anymore than standing in your garage makes you a car.

    What do most of you think the law of consecration is if it's not some form of socialized living. Any of you religious Utahan's ever consider that?

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:07 p.m.

    kid is denied for being too fat at 2 yrs old... next, a kid is denied because too small.... insurance companies just want to cover people that they don't have to spend money on.. it's a big scam. they provide NO benefit - they are simply middle-men. if any benefit is provided, it is to make providers charge less. so do we really need an insurance company to do that? can't we do it ourselves by all banding together? and if so, what is the best way to do that? individually or through elected reps? think about it...

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 3:58 p.m.

    I believe in the law of consecration. I don't believe in socialism. Socialism is a counterfeit system. Anyone here that believes that the government promoting a socialist agenda is doing it because of Jesus Christ's teachings is deluding themselves.

  • What's right?
    Oct. 22, 2009 3:57 p.m.

    Anything can be a 'right' if the majority decides it is.

    Healthcare has been made a 'right' in many countries of the world...yet here, we debate whether or not it can be.

    Just more diversionary tactics....

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 3:47 p.m.

    "So when communists and socialists vote to take your hard earned money and property under the color of law do we have a right to resist violently? "

    PLEASE STOP IGNORANCE ABOUT UNIVERSAL HAELTHCARE, this is not about Socialism, WE pay a lot of money for a BAD service, for a service that can tell you DENIED or NOT AVAILABLE. LOT OF MONEY!!!! for nothing, c'mon people.
    If the health insurance company doesnt care and still getting a lot of money from our pockets WHY not to get this right from the people who work for US!
    You like to being robbed and do nothing.
    This is about doing something better, OUR allies have it, why not us! is not perfect but IS A LOT BETTER THAN US

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 3:27 p.m.

    I wonder what insurance jesus excepted when he healed the sick.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 3:26 p.m.

    We also have a right to know what exactly is going into our food!

    Not small print hidden under the wrapping of the product!

    We also have a right to pay less for healthcare than the 33 nations that are getting better care.

    We have the right to get what we pay for!

  • Let's make a deal
    Oct. 22, 2009 2:22 p.m.

    Now that I will be paying for your health care, I have a "right" to tell you that you all are FAT and NEED TO STOP SMOKING. Hope you're not offended....

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 2:05 p.m.

    Yes, we need to reform the way health care is available, but forcing insurance companies out of business so the government can set up 54 new government agencies to tell you how and when you can get care is not the answer.

  • @Smoke and Mirrors
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:54 p.m.

    Why did you change the metaphor "lipstick on a pig" to "lipstick on a chimp" when discussing Obama? Do I detect a certain racial overtone in your references to a "smelly, ugly chimp"? I think I do. It's an odd sort of substitution...but perfectly in keeping with the pictures of Obama-as-Gorilla that were displayed at the great Teabag March on Washington.

  • More Evidence
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:53 p.m.

    America...the land of entitlements. Terrorists won't destroy out "way of life", the lack of personal accountability and responsibility will. There is no conceivable way that Health Care is a "right". Holy cow, all need to be saved from complaining and all need to be saved from yourselves. Unbelievable...

  • Different Perspective
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:48 p.m.

    I'v never understood the argument that people don't want to pay taxes towards other peoples health-care. You're looking at it the wrong way.

    I live in the UK. Every month a portion of my income goes toward National Insurance. So for a kick off, just the name of this scheme should make you see this as being no different to any other insurance scheme.

    A portion of this contribution goes towards my Health Care. Instead of seeing it as paying for other peoples care, I see it as paying for my future care. For any un-forseen health scares I may have, and for when I get into old age I am garaunteed healthcare, anything I need, There will be no loopholes, no pre-existing ailments, I will get EVERYTHING I ever need to keep me healthy.No, Bachmann accepted $180,000 in campaign contributions from the insurance industry, and DeMint cashed in $226,000 from health professionals and another $209,000 from insurance companies. This is about giving the industry favors and kickbacks, not some sort of crusade to save America from crushing debt.

  • DIg Deeper
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:44 p.m.

    @ World Health Organization.

    Once again shallow research produces shallow results. WHO is an organization from where? The United Nations!

    And in that survey how is the data gathered? Why, self reporting, of course. We can always trust those wonderful places like Cuba to only report the truth, right?

    And those survey questions from the WHO are asking what? Why, they're asking if the healthcare is delivered FAIRLY (which is socialized medicine). In that scenario if both a rich person and a poor person died from a simple pneumonia, that would be FAIR & therefore good healthcare. Flawed data people!

    Quit reading your favorite blog & citing that as research. Keep trying to find the truth, it's out there.

  • MZJ
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:41 p.m.

    Basic care, like basic education, should be accessible to all.

    Advanced care (major procedures, catastrophic conditions, etc.), like tuition to Harvard or Stanford, is available to those who can attain it, but is not an entitlement to all.

    I realize it is difficult to admit that the cure for one's ailment is a heart transplant, and without the ability to pay for the procedure, they will not be cured.

    Less than a generation ago it was understood that unfortunately people die as a result of not having unlimited resources. Over the past 50 years the "generation of entitlement" has become confused on this and other issues, insisting that "someone" pay for what "anyone" needs (or in some cases wants).

    Preventative care is essential and exponentially cost effective. Behavioral health services are critical and could have a major impact on prison and jail populations saving billions every year. Heart and lung transplants for anyone that needs one, or any other catastrophic condition, does not fit in the math.

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:41 p.m.

    world health organization:

    This is the site I looked at. Again, it is ranking healhcare systems, not healthcare. I will be the first to admit our system of delivery may not be the most efficient. However, what this ranking does not reveal is the percentage difference between #1 and #37. Is it significant? or only a minute difference? For example, if the fastest men in the world ran a 100 meter dash, it is possible that there could be only a difference of 1/100th of a second in their time. Significant enough to make a difference in gold or silver medal, but not much to brag about.

    We also don't know the criteria used to make this ranking. There is a spread sheet available that provides minor detail but still no adequate explanation.

    Again I emphasize this ranking by the WHO is about our SYSTEM of delivering healthcare, not the actual healthcare provided.

    And so I still wait for you to provide me with some shred of evidence that healthcare in the US is subpar.

  • Honestly
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    What's next? Housing...Will Barry Obama be able to convince Americans that they all have a "right" to housing? And then what...

  • World Health Org>
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:35 p.m.

    Why does anyone give a rip what some UN-type world group says about the US? We all know how credible the UN is, not to mention the Nobel Peace Prize. I really think that a lot of George Sorros' funded bloggers are on this forum being paid to shill for Obamacare. Get a life! There is no free lunch. Get out and get a real job and quit expecting Roast Duck to Fly Into your Mouth (confucious).

  • Social Justice
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:32 p.m.

    "Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane."
    -- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

    But what did he know about equality and inhumanity coming from such a privileged background?

  • to:Pres Benson said|11:25 a.m.
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:20 p.m.

    Joseph Smith was a Bleeding-Heart Liberal.

    FYI, Families are Socialist.
    Therefore, Heaven is Socialist too.

    You've embarassed yourself by confusing the facts.

  • Stewart
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:18 p.m.

    I don't really think it is about health care being a right, but more about who is going to pay for it. Most, including employers, are thinking that they will get out of paying for health care, if the "government" is paying for it. We already have a government run program called Medicare. It is going broke, or so we are told. We are also told that billion are lost every year to this government run health program.

    There is no free lunch and if you think insurance companies are not capable of providing health care, the government will be much worse. Almost all of the increase in health care comes from the increased costs of providers, because their clients demand the services.

  • Re: Toby (and probably others)
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:14 p.m.

    Of course you will have the freedom to choose whether to help someone. In your heart, you will have already chosen.

    And THAT is the choice The Lord will record. He judges on men's HEARTS as well as their actions.

    Don't people ever get tired of the "me, me, me" attitude that comes along with this thing called Capitalism? The great challenge is what do we do with our resources - do we keep it or decide who is worthy of our help and who is not? Or do we do like the Savior would do?

    Again, let's turn to the scriptures. This time the Widow's Mite. The reason that she was singled out as an example is because she gave ALL that she had. Christ did not talk about those who write $2 million checks for buildings at BYU. ("They have their glory.." sound familiar?)

    He singled out she who gave ALL THEY HAD (metaphorically, or literally) to help others...not 10% plus whatever you feel like putting in for Fast Offerings. 100%.

    Call it Socialism if you want. Or call it what it is - the way Christ does it.

  • Janet
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:01 p.m.

    Many people make the assumption that every choice is clear, and every consequence is just. We're all for the "do unto others," "as ye have done it unto the least of these," Good Samaritan, "charity never faileth" rhetoric, but when it comes down to it, most of us are like Washington Hogwallop in "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?" "Sorry, Pete, I know we're kin, but they got this depression on. I got to do for me and mine."

  • Smoke and Mirrors
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:01 p.m.

    Obama-care , call it what you want "Smoke and Mirror" or "MonkeyShine" it really boils down to 1200 pages of lawyer speak double talk that isn't the beautiful, glamorous queen that Obama is attempting to portray but rather more like putting lip stick on a chimp. No matter how hard Obama tries to misrepresent this titanic boat anchor it still ends up looking and smelling like an ugly chimp. Obama - the master of deception and misinformation is the most dishonest and corrupt president in US history. I would refer any one to read the book by Michelle Malkin "Culture of Corruption: Obama and His Team of Tax Cheats, Crooks, and Cronies".

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:51 p.m.

    absolutely it is a right! (or at least it should be)
    education has not be found to be a fundamental right by the supreme court yet we very much take it for granted, and i doubt that anyone will question that govt. should provide public schools. hopefully healthcare will also become something that everyone has access to!
    it is a shame that the us (as one of the richest, if not the richest) nations in the world cannot (or refuses to) provide healthcare to its citizens!!

  • comment
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:44 p.m.

    I have lived in New Zealand for the past year. My husband injured his shoulder. It took 3 months for us to be seen by a specilist and then we never got any results. We were paying with a private insurance we brought with us. People wait for as long as 8 months to get their gall bladder removed. A lady had to have ankle surgery and had to wait for 4 months while walking on crutches. If you talk with the people here they think they have wonderful health care because it is FREE. When are we going to wake up and reilize that nothing is free unless we work for what we want. We cannot wait to get back to good old USA and see our doctor on the same day we need him. To get a MRI without traveling 100 miles and waiting for months to get it. We have the best health care in the world. #34 just means I can pay for it and get it now.

  • World Health Organization
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:43 p.m.

    To Metamoragoug:
    It is the World Health Oraganization that ranks the world on their healthcare. The United States is indeed #34. We are behind Costa Rica! You can find the information on the website. We spend more than any other naion on earth on healthcare too. The United States is a member of the World Health Organization.

  • They are furious about it
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:29 p.m.

    RE:Anonymous @ 11:53 a.m.

    "Back then if you were lucky enough to be born black a white person would own you as property. It was also a part of life. I wonder if our founding fathers squirmed in their graves during the equal rights movement."

    They would be really outraged to see that the civil rights movements was successful and they would also recognize that those who followed them can no longer have 100% profit off of the labor of others and must instead share that profit 99% to 1-5%. This would make them mad so they would find a way to make sure that the slaves know their place.

    They would be rolling in their graves in anger and they would scream about how it is unfair but then they would tell their buddies that the best way to make a profit in such a situation is to pay their slaves a salary and make them rent/buy their own house, food, health care and other necessities so that they can cut down on operational costs which will allow them to maximize the profit while paying low wages knowing that charities will provide the necessities.

  • You owe me big time parasite
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:18 p.m.

    Re; GET used to it | 11:16 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

    "Then when he went to college, he paid his own tuition with money from his part-time and summer jobs instead of bellying up to the trough for a Pell grant or a subsidized loan."

    Who wants to bet that your son went to a public university and benefited from state appropriations which covers approximately 51% of the actual cost of a public university education. It sounds like your son benefited from someone's taxes. Only idiots believe that a public education is paid in full when they pay their tuition. The only way your son would even come close to paying the full cost of his education is if he attended a out of state university.

    "The pressing question here is, how much more money are YOU willing to personally give to pay for someone else's health care?"

    I don't know. Maybe as much as I gave to pay for your son's college education. That would be a good start. Oh, and that electricity you used when you home schooled your son I will send you operation bills for the part I paid.

  • Interesting cont.
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:17 p.m.

    When I say pay more for their health care, I mean in the form of higher insurance premiums because they are choosing to put themselves in a higher risk category.

  • Interesting
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:15 p.m.

    I believe everyone has the right to emergency response (first aid, cpr, etc.) where the person will almost immediately die without it. As for exams, hip replacements, MRI's, prescriptions, etc. I don't think it's a right, it's a service one should pay for from their own wallet or their insurance plan. I also believe that people who make poor health choices (diet, exercise, sexually, hygiene, etc.) should pay more for their health care.

  • Time for Civics Lesson
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:14 p.m.

    Health Care is a commodity, like food. It is no more a "right" than dinner on my table that I have to work for to earn. It may be necessary, like food, but that doesn't make it a "right." This shows problem with our "entitlement" society and the rising generation, raised on obama type rhetoric, that all of these things are owed to them. How will we all survive????

  • Bankruptcy
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:14 p.m.

    There are always those who go into bankruptcy for unexpected catastrophes, medical being one. But how many people have no savings, not because they couldn't if they were frugal, but because they don't want to? How many overextend themselves and then get sick and "can't pay". We see the same thing with housing. Bankruptcy is way overused because people are simply stupid with money, not because something is unfair. I would suspect that many bankruptcies attributed to medical bills are from families who have houses they can't afford, cars that can't afford, and lifestyles they can't afford, and don't save a dime but sure run up credit card debt like there's no tomorrow, and then have a medical bill that they can't pay...

  • I AM OUT
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:13 p.m.

    Utah the home of the LDS church but at the same time the home of the selfish. The ones against equality and sharing. The ones that does not reflect Christian values. Do you think Jesus will be accepting to listen only the ones that have medical insurance or other papers. I am out. why should I continue living and paying taxes on a society who does not care about its citizens. You can rationalize everything you want about policy and political views but your selfish way of life comes across easily. I better move to any other country. This one is broken.

  • LT
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:11 p.m.

    Let me be clear:

    The only "UNITED STATES CITIZENS" that have earned and deserve the right to "LIFE......" (5 star government health insurance 'above and beyond those in the United States congress') are all those civilian and military men and women (and their families) who have selflessly "VOLUNTEERED" to serve this country and have ended up in situations that have taken away that "RIGHT" to "LIFE......"

    Our selfless Senior citizens having made incomprehensible sacrifices to make this country what it is also have "EARNED and DESERVE" the RIGHT to LIFE.....

    Make no mistake about it, the last and most vulnerable, indefensible group that "DESERVE" the RIGHT to LIFE are those yet born.....

    All the rest....go get a job (after all we have an administration that is supposed to be executing change and creating JOBS, when they’re not obsessively attacking Fox news....LOL)

    It is tragic that this administration exploited these groups of people during the election just to get elected and now 9 months later all they have to show for it is bankrupting America and going after Fox news, how much more DESPERATE are they going to get? I hope to not find out!

  • Conservative
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:59 a.m.

    I question the way this survey was taken and the way the results are being interpreted. From the comments, I am seeing I don't believe most Utah's would agree with what this article claims we believe. What is your motive for this misinterpretation?

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:55 a.m.

    I think what most Americans are trying to convey is that the healthcare and insurance industries DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to take as much of our money as they are currently taking. We need protection. If that needs to come from the government, so be it!

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:53 a.m.

    True Conservative | 10:34 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009
    Is GOVERNMENT responsible for providing our basic neccessities? Such a thought would have made our Founding Fathers squirm in their grave. Back then, if a doctor was unavailable, you would die. NO ONE SUED or COMPLAINED. It was a part of life.

    Back then if you were lucky enough to be born black a white person would own you as property. It was also a part of life. I wonder if our founding fathers squirmed in their graves during the equal rights movement.

  • Other "rights"?
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:50 a.m.

    Anonymous said: "Heath care is definitely a right! Who are we to say who can or can't have good health? Who are we to tell people if they can live or die? This argument is so obvious it seems stupid to me."
    Gotcha. So, what about food? We'll die without food, too, right? Should three meals per day be a "right"? And shelter! Who are we to permit someone to live on the street? Give the man three squares and a "reasonable" house to go with his health care! And while you're at it, laminate his Communist Party card, comrade!
    This is a fair and logical expansion of this line of reasoning, and it leads inexorably to one thing: Communism.

  • timing issue
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:48 a.m.

    I think the bigger question is - should health care be viewed under the same lens as education.

    should all americans have ACCESS to a free basic education? and if so, should all americans have ACCESS to a free health care?

    they are pretty much the same thing in my mind. I realize neither is "free". we as a society pay for it through taxes. I have no kids, but my taxes pay for others kids to go to school. Is that fair? I think so. I got educated when I was a kid - now it's my turn to send the new kids to school.

    the problem is that as a kid I didn't get free health care, paid for by others. With a change in the health care scenario, kids now (and adults, etc) will get "free" coverage (if they can't afford it themselves). So there would be a generation or so where it would appear to be "unfair".

    but it would all catch up - and next generations can say what I said about education - "I got free health care - now it's my turn to give health care".

    it's a timing issue, people.

  • Ch33ch
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:44 a.m.

    Like others have said, no one is being denied health care. It is a SERVICE you PAY FOR. What is it worth to people? Supply and demand only works when you have to pay for the cost of the service. This argument is about as ridiculous as wanting the best legal counsel for a $15 co-pay. SERIOUSLY.

  • Educating Conservatives
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:38 a.m.

    The Rock | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009
    Why health care? Food is even more essential to life. Do we have a right to eat at expense of others?

    Last time I checked Americans weren't filing bankruptcy due to food bills. But research shows that...

    "Medical bills are behind more than 60 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies... More than 75 percent of these bankrupt families had health insurance"

  • Webster
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:36 a.m.

    I can't believe that the people who says health care is a right actually understand what that means. Of course I have a right to seek health care, but I have no right to demand that anyone give it to me. The survey is flawed.

  • Another Utah Doc
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:29 a.m.

    The first Utah Doc hit on one of the most salient points of the whole argument--incentive. Does anyone get that incentive is the engine that has driven the greatest social experiment of the ages (the USA) to success beyond measure? The noble desires of most who want take care of our sick under a universal banner are a total pipe dream if the wealth to accomplish it doesn't exist!

    Drying up the incentive to excel by putting health care under govt control will be an unmitigated disaster to the quality of the system. Debauching the value of the dollar in the process of spending far more than we have will destroy our ability to pay for whatever is left of our once great health care system that has truly given the best technology and care to all--regardless of ability to pay. And all in the name of giving care to all--for free.

  • Right vs Choice
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:26 a.m.

    ok | 10:55 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009
    If I have a "Right" to carry a gun does that make you financially sssssliable for that "Right"?


    No silly, because unlike a gun people “don't choose" to be sick. And just like you "choose" to carry a gun big business chooses to make profit off sick people.

  • President Benson said
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:25 a.m.

    at Valley Forge when he spoke there on the 200th anniversary of the Constitution--we were there and personally heard him--that government has NO rights that citizens don't give it and that citizens cannot vote to give government a right to do things they cannot legally do themselves. He said that the government putting its hands into citizens' pockets to force them to pay for benefits for others was "legalized plunder," and as such was immoral.

    Joseph Smith himself studied Socialism and said it was not Heavenly Father's plan at all. In fact, forcing people to be good and charitable smacks of the opposite. A Zion society is a voluntary society, not a society of force.

    Should we help those in need--YES, of course we should. Should we be forced to do so--NO!

    If you think health care in Europe is free, you've got another think coming. Check out their huge tax rate. There is no such thing as something coming from the government for free--government only has the money it takes from taxpayers (or borrow, or print, which leads to inflation--a hidden tax on us all).

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:24 a.m.

    to Rita

    Well thought out and a good reminder of the things that matter most.

    However, is government mandated compassion really compassion? If I'm being forced to give is it really my choice to be compassionate?

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:19 a.m.

    to i ate cosmo (burp):

    What I got is a website that ranked healthcare systems (as opposed to healthcare -- a very different measure I'm sure you can see). It said the US healthcare system is 37th.

    However, I also found several other sites comparing US healthcare to other industrialized nations and there were several specific medical areas that US healthcare leads in.

    No offense to your professor, I'm certain he/she is very knowledgeable. However, he/she is also no more credible than my stating that healthcare in the US is second to none. Again, I ask for a credible reference stating how HEALTHCARE -- not healthcare systems -- in the US compare to other countries. I'm inviting you to do your research. Go to the library and check out the stacks. Not all knowledge can be googled.

  • to:The Rock | 10:07 a.m
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:19 a.m.

    who said:
    Rights do not place obligations on others.

    So then using your flawed logical,
    Having a Military is not a right either.

    BTW, Are you a Veteran??
    I am.

    [another case of Selective Reasoning syndrome].

  • Re; GET used to it
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:16 a.m.

    There are alot of people who recognize after their experiences with socialized education that if the government runs our health care system they way it runs our schools then we're in deep, deep trouble.

    Which is why many of us try to avoid using government services if at all possible. My home-schooled son didn't step foot in a public school for 8 years except for a driver's ed class.

    Then when he went to college, he paid his own tuition with money from his part-time and summer jobs instead of bellying up to the trough for a Pell grant or a subsidized loan.

    The pressing question here is, how much more money are YOU willing to personally give to pay for someone else's health care?

    Because if you want a refund for making sure every kid has at least a mediocre education, then you certainly aren't going to be happy paying even more to make sure everyone has mediocre health care.

  • What Access?
    Oct. 22, 2009 11:01 a.m.

    Access to Basic Health care. What does it mean? Everyone has access to a physician or an emergency room. They are all out there and a person can go to the physicians office or the emergency room. Whether they are accepted or not depends on individual circumstances. Basic health care may mean the ability to choose whether to smoke, not exercise, use alcohol, eat proper foods, avoid dangerous pursuits, etc. These choices are all access to basic health care. The question then becomes is treatment for health problems a right and who is responsible to pay for the treatment and is it a right to have someone else pay for the treatment?

  • Re: Show me JUST ONE...
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:59 a.m.

    "...Instance of where the government has provided anything cheaper than the private sector?"

    Health care. The government manages Medicare with just a 4% overhead. Overhead in private insurance companies hovers near 20%. No universal health care system in any nation in the world costs that much to operate.

  • Bastiat
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:58 a.m.

    So 80% of Utahans do not know what a right is. Should I be surprised by that? Let's do another survey and ask how many Utahans believe they have a right to plunder their neighbor's property to secure the means to pay for their healthcare.

  • You are surrounded moron voters
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:55 a.m.

    The Rock

    "Rights do not place obligations on others."

    Yes they do. Your failure to see it means you are stupid. End of debate because I've voted

    "I have the freedom of speech but nobody is required to listen."

    You are right about that. I don't have to listen nor do members of Congress have to listen to the guy who represents you and I urge them to expel everyone you elect to represent your state.

    That is their right and it is time for them to do so. Let's see how you like it when we tell you we don't want to look at the ugly faces of the morons you vote for. You want to talk about rights? Let's do it. Let's talk about how I am not obligated to let your vote kill those I love or allow you to vote even if you have the right to vote. Congress should just vote to nullify all the Presidential votes of Utah residents. Let's see how they like it when we expel them from the union and bomb them if they try to exit in our air space.

  • Stop breathing my clean air
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:47 a.m.

    Tim D | 9:59 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

    "If right = entitlement, as in I'm entitled to some of your money, then NO it is not a right."

    Okay. It's a deal.

    Don't use my roads, my lights, my water, my garbage man, my police, my firefighters, my schools, my city cemetery or my buildings including when you vote. If you so much as enter a building paid for by my taxes to cast your votes I will send you a bill.

    Since you are't entitle to some of my money then feel free to stay in your hell hole house but I'm cutting all services to it. Try seeing how you like not having water, electricity, garbage removal or waste removal. When you start to rot in your own urine and feces your neighbors can call us and we will come by to condemn your house and you can sleep on the streets but we will send you a bill for that since you have no right to use our sidewalks or streets as a place to sleep.

    Now that we know how you benefit from my taxes you can cease doing so.

  • Not in Utah
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:47 a.m.

    I am glad that I am not in a ditch bleeding, bruised, and left by the wayside. It is apparent that a good protion of you all would pass me by or throw a few coins my way. I guess I would have to wait on someone from Wyoming to come to my rescue.

  • Oh Please
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:45 a.m.

    While you all argue about rights, children are dying and people are going bankrupt trying to pay for $200-per-day pills. And Republicans defend this? The Republican soul is a very dark place.

  • RE:matt
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:41 a.m.

    "Health care is neither a right nor a privilege, it's a good or service provided by working people, just like anything else."

    Rights are a good or service provided by the people. There is not a single right that exists which isn't provided by the people. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom to assemble, and the freedom to vote are all rights which would not exist if it weren't for an act of the people.

    "It would be interesting to see the poll questions. What people mean by a "right" can differ greatly. I think most people would agree that as many people as possible should have the health care that they need, but I doubt they think that they should pay for other people's health care."

    You are right. I should not have to use my personal money to buy health care for someone else so someone can make money while I also pay taxes which benefit those I paid the medical bills to. I pay taxes and they benefit health providers so why should I pay taxes that benefit them and then pay a bill so they make profit

  • No right
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:36 a.m.

    In order for it to be a right you must require doctors to give up their liberty to perform your health care.

    If there were no doctor's - no one to provide health care - would it still be a right? Would we at that point force people to go into medicine so that the rest of us could have health care as our "right."

    It is not a right.

  • True Conservative
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:34 a.m.

    Do I have a right to health care? Do I have a right to have food? Do I have a right to have shelter? All three are basic neccessities. THE REAL question should be: Is GOVERNMENT responsible for providing our basic neccessities? Such a thought would have made our Founding Fathers squirm in their grave. Back then, if a doctor was unavailable, you would die. NO ONE SUED or COMPLAINED. It was a part of life.

  • Work 4 company charity buys from
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:34 a.m.


    "All compassionate people would want to help those in need. The question is whether the government should provide health care through tax dollars. This in essence means there is no freedom to choose whether you will help someone. The government just made the choice. This is socialism. If we want to be free to choose, then we need to keep the government out of health care."

    I would just love to help someone pay an $800,000 medical bill for a 4 day stay in the hospital or I would love to see an LDS Ward or a Church do that.

    Assume that the ward has 1,000 members who donate a generous fast offering of $20.00 a month. I'm sorry but you just wiped out the 240,000 in fast offerings for that ward.

    What you fail to understand is that charity is meant to make money for businesses.

    It's primary purpose isn't to help the poor even if people believe they are. Who benefits more from a person going to the store to buy food for a family who works there. The family or the business who just made the profit?

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:30 a.m.

    Why don't they call this "reform" what it is? It is not "health care reform" and does nothing to bring down the cost of health "care". The legislation simply sets up "health insurance reform" and does nothing to bring down the cost of the care. If you reformed "health care" and brought down the cost of the care, then the insurance companies wouldn't have to charge an arm and a leg to pay the costs of their insureds.

  • Health Care = Life
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:30 a.m.

    We are guaranteed the right to life under the Constitution. When one's health is endangering their life, the Constitution guarantees care for the individual, does it not? My Constitutional interpretation says that terminal diseases should be covered for all.

  • Tyler
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:28 a.m.

    Healthcare isn't necessarily a right, but ACCESS to healthcare is definitely a right. Unfortunately, someone needs to ensure that noone is discriminated against in their pursuit of healthcare due to race, gender, economic status, etc.

  • to Rita | 9:51 a.m.
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:27 a.m.


    Well said.


  • Your business built on my back
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:26 a.m.

    to tax burden

    "Okay, maybe it isn't quite half. Add on stimulus money paid to you that I didn't get. That is equal to a double tax on me. Add to that gas tax, sales tax, phone usage tax, property tax on my home and my business building, tax on my business equipment."

    Let's add on the fact that I didn't get a stimulus check and a greater share of my income goes to the sales tax then yours does.

    I wonder why that is? Because you are a parasite!!!

    "Have you gone 1.5 million into debt, sticking your kneck out to start a new business? Do you lose sleep worrying about paying your business loan."

    I stick my neck out by working for a business that I don't have a say in and if the business goes out of business I lose my job. Thats a greater risk

    "Stick it to the "rich" right. You had better pray that the "rich" stick around. After you have pulled them down who will pay for police and roads"

    Stick it to the poor right. Sales tax them for food so you can have a business

  • Howie
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:21 a.m.

    This poll doesn't pass the smell test. What else will become rights in the future? Jobs, pizza every Friday night?

  • Lew Jeppson
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:21 a.m.

    Health care is a right in that we shouldn't let people die for lack of the ability to pay. This is not to absolve people from trying to take care of themselves through the getting of insurance. We are NOT talking about absolving people of personal responsbility. This is all about sharing risk.

  • RL
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:18 a.m.

    The same "Right-to-Life" group,
    is the very same group who is the most vocal about
    "ANTI-Right-to-Life" when it comes to HealthCare.

    I call'em as I see'em


  • Good Movie
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:16 a.m.

    Watch the documentary I.O.U.S.A. The main point of the movie isn't the need to reform health care, but it is a close second.

    Our system is based on acute, episodic care. Heaven help you if you have a chronic illness and need coordinated care from our "system". The system needs to be flipped 180 degrees and do a much better job of preventing illness.

    Expose people to the true cost of care and their behavior will change. In case you're wondering a visit to the ED doesn't cost your $50-$100 deductible. It costs $1500 the moment you walk through the door and goes up from there.

    I love capitalism. Seriously, I'm its biggest fan. A requirement for capitalism is a healthy, mobile workforce. By any measure we aren't as healthy as other industrialized countries. We are tied to employer provided health coverage, so mobility is out the window. No wonder other countries are cleaning our clocks. Bring on the post-post industrial economy!

  • RedShirt
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:16 a.m.

    TO "Does anyone know where the LDS | 7:58 a.m." it depends on who you talk to. If the church follows what Elder Ezra Taft Benson said in 1979, the answer is no, the LDS church does not support universal healthcare. Here is the quote saying so. "Today the party now in power is advocating and has support, apparently in both major parties, for a comprehensive national health insurance program - a euphemism for socialized medicine. Our major danger is that we are currently (and have been for fourty years) transferring responsibility from the individual, local, and state government to the federal government - precisely the same course that led to the economic collapse in Great Britain and New York City. We cannot long persue the present trend without its bringing us to national insolvency."

  • american
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:15 a.m.

    Healthcare is not a right. It’s a service provided by someone who chose it as a means to make a living and fulfill all of the aforementioned responsibilities for themselves and theirs. If it is a fundamental right, what would happen if no one chose to practice it voluntarily? Would the government have to force people to study medicine to become doctors, nurses, orderlies, EMTs, hospital administrators, etc.?

  • John
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:10 a.m.

    Whether we like it or not, we already subsidize the care of those who cannot afford it. The ER does not turn people away. So when they can't pay, the hospital writes it off. Since hospitals can't write things off forever without going bankrupt, the cost to the insured increases to cover the cost of the uninsured. So we are already paying for everybody anyway.

    But consider this: if healthcare became universal in name as well (since it's already universal in practice) then perhaps we could eliminate the middleman insurance company from the whole scheme. Wouldn't one less middleman in the system decrease the cost for all?

    Also consider: if we could simply implement tort reform like Europe, we could bring down malpractice insurance and thereby bring down costs in general. But alas, this will never happen, since Congress is ruled by lawyers.

  • Debbie
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    The problem is that even basic health care has become so expensive that most people can't afford it without insurance and most cannot afford private insurance (assuming they are insurable). If you show up to a clinic with no insurance, you'd better be prepared to fork over a minimum of $50 to $100 deposit to even be seen. In an emergency, with high unemployment, how many will this hurt? When health care was more affordable we could say it is not a "right" because many could manage somehow to get the money. But these days one crisis can bankrupt so we have to look beyond the "right" vs "privilege" thought process. We need to look at it as something that not only needs reform from multiple angles, but also needs to be shared among all to make it accessible. This is not unlike other shared cost services such as sewer and clean water. But, in reform, all elements must be considered, including attorney profits! I do not want the Federal Government to run health care - heaven forbid! But, they need to collect the taxes, then allow someone who understands healthcare (like IHC in Utah) to run it.

  • The Rock
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    Rights do not place obligations on others. I have the freedom of speech but nobody is required to listen. Freedom of the press does not require any to read what you write.

    Health care is not a right because it places obligations upon others to provide it. Further, competent health care did not even exist until just a couple centuries ago. Does one have a right to something that does not exist?

    Why health care? Food is even more essential to life. Do we have a right to eat at expense of others? D&C 42 :10 "The Idler shall not eat the bread or wear the garments of the laborer."

    What if a doctor does not want to render services? Should the doctor be forced to do so? Is this not involuntary servitude? Hello slavery!

    Do people have a right to health care even if it is going to bankrupt the nation? Rights are absolute. They cannot be taken away without due process.

    This point out the indoctrination our children must be receiving in public school. Ideas this wrong and this wide spread could come from no other source.

  • RedShirt
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    To "to Archie Bunker | 8:34 a.m." I must really be in your head, making your mind swirl. I have not commented on this article yet you ATTACK me.

    Funny how somebody who is a liberal, and accepting of everybody around them would have to mount an attack on someboy who hasn't said anything.

    My question to the Deseret News is, how was the question phrased? Was it like in the article where it was asked "Is having a healthy society as important to us as having an educated one?" If so, then the results are highly suspect. Also, seeing as how there have been 4 previous stories pushing for government health insurance, I am highly suspect of the questions being asked in the poll.

  • David G
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:04 a.m.

    Rights have obligations attached to them. Rights are paid for in cash ... or in blood. Obligations are individual as well as collective. The "American" way of life (our freedoms if your will) are paid for by the blood of individuals. Whether that blood is wasted is topic for another controversial topic. The point is, we don't all pay equally for constitutional rights. Each of us can do a self assessment here to verify it. The poor pay with their blood, the rich with their gold. The question: which is more precious?

    Health care is an individual and collective OBLIGATION. The word implies payment made or promised. Personal habits play a large part. Choices that run contrary to causal relationships must be paid for. Take cigarette taxes for example. Is the "big mac" tax any different? Sure ... taxes are an inefficient way to manage an acknowledged problem and should be used as a last resort. Health care costs have now infected secondary and tertiary decision making processes that compound the problem.

    The solutions are in my opinion simple, but they are hard. Have we lost the ability to be both responsible and compassionate?

  • matt
    Oct. 22, 2009 10:00 a.m.

    Health care is neither a right nor a privilege, it's a good or service provided by working people, just like anything else.

    It would be interesting to see the poll questions. What people mean by a "right" can differ greatly. I think most people would agree that as many people as possible should have the health care that they need, but I doubt they think that they should pay for other people's health care.

    For a very good argument against health care as a fundamental, constitutional right, read "Medical Care as a Right: A Refutation" by Robert M. Sade.

  • Tim D
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:59 a.m.

    If right = entitlement, as in I'm entitled to some of your money, then NO it is not a right.

  • slgs5
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:58 a.m.

    An interesting thought. Recently a standardized test was administered in the schools to all 8th graders. In the Social Studies portion was this question.... Which of the following is a right guaranteed by the Bill of rights? A) Trial by a jury of your peers, B) Health care C) Driving down the freeway D) Airline travel. SO do you know what the answer is? I guarantee that the media coverage, and overwhelming debate make this question completely biased and unfair for our students. I am not sure when the test was published but I do know it is not from this year, because the same test was given last year as well. If us adults can't get it right, how are the 8th graders supposed to get it right.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:57 a.m.

    Do other countries with Universal Healthcare have Insurance companies, agents, salesmen, brokers and Corporations [an entire industry in and of itself]

    better known in the business world as "MIDDLE MEN"

    Standing between you the "payer patient", and the actual Healthcare Provider?

    If we [as a country] are paying more for less...

    Then we have the better system.
    If they don't, then they have a better system.

  • Ultra Bob
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:55 a.m.

    Among the problems of our society is the problem that we don’t all talk the same language. We use the same words, but they don’t mean the same things to all people. The word “right” and the word “rights” are prime examples of that problem.

    The definition I like best is simply that rights are the “permission” given to the members of our society to be, to act, and expect from others certain privileges for ourselves. And the way we get these rights is by giving them to others.

    There is no such thing as “God given rights”. God gives life, but no further guarantees.

    There are no Constitutional rights. Words written on a piece of paper don’t mean a thing without the consensus of the people in our society here and now.

    There are no unalienable rights. Nothing that we have cannot be taken from us. Even life itself.

    We do have the ability to create and delete rights at the pleasure of our society. All we have to do to make health care a right is to get our society to concur.

  • Toby
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:53 a.m.

    All compassionate people would want to help those in need. The question is whether the government should provide health care through tax dollars. This in essence means there is no freedom to choose whether you will help someone. The government just made the choice. This is socialism. If we want to be free to choose, then we need to keep the government out of health care.

  • Rita
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:51 a.m.

    I hope that 80% remembers how Orrin Hatch votes...and then the 80% votes accordingly.

    Must we ALWAYS return to the scriptures to see how the Lord behaved? Let's see, something like "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, liberate the captive". Healing the sick (metaphorically and literally); raising the dead (again, metaphorically and literally).

    And here's a bonus question: who was it that he called "hypocrits". Oh yeah, it was the ultra-religious.

    As a (conservative) judge friend of our said, "Christ was the ultimate Public Defender. When all others were calling out for 'justice', Christ called out for mercy."

    How does the Primary song go...? "I'm trying to be like JESUS..."

    If we talk His talk, we better walk His walk. Or you risk being a hypocrit - and we know how He feels about that.

  • CEO's manage plantation slaves
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:51 a.m.

    RE:re: I am a simple person

    "Why do you think you have any stronger claim to your earned money than a corporate executive has to his/hers?"

    Because he earned it from working while they earned it from controlling the company's slaves

    "Do you work harder than any corporate executive?"

    Yes, they sit on their fat butts all day and act like they are working hard when in reality their only job is to control the company slaves who are given enough to buy or rent a house off of the plantation and buy food instead of eating in the plantation mess hall.

    "Are you smarter than any corporate executive?"

    I can guarantee you that he's as intelligent as any corporate executive unless you are suggesting he is genetically inferior to this master race of CEO's.

    "Have you created more jobs than any corporate executive?"

    Corporate Executives don't create jobs. That's the consumer. CEO's only manipulate the producers.

    "Have you already contributed more to charity than any corporate executive?"

    Charity is another way to make money for a Corporate Executive. You buy food for the poor and and make corporate executive richer.

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:49 a.m.

    I had an interesting conversation with my daughter yesterday. She was busily baking cookies for one of her teachers -- the second time in three days she was baking cookies for a teacher at school. She needed more brown sugar though. So, she asked where she might find some.

    When I questioned her about more cookies, she responded, "Everyone deserves cookies on their birthday."

    I agreed, "Yes they do. But I can't afford to provide cookies for everyone on their birthday."

    At what point to we insist that our government be fiscally responsible?

  • Obama-care ...NOT!!
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:44 a.m.

    Obama-care is NOT a responsible or desirable solution for health care reform. The cost is not sustainable and will cause HUGE cuts in Medicare to seniors (500 billion dollars) as well as rationing of services for all plus tax increases for the middle class. The cost of health care will also INCREASE under Obama-care contrary to the propaganda coming from the white house. I happen to also believe that health care should be RIGHT given to ALL US citizens who have a social security number HOWEVER Obama's proposal is absolutely NOT the answer...that much is clear.

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:42 a.m.

    to realist @ 8:57

    Again, please provide a credible source for this information of US healthcare being 34th. Is it a reference to our healthcare or to our health habits?

  • RE: Health Care is NOT a Right
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:38 a.m.

    "The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights have one thing in common; they don't require anyone else to do something for you."

    First of all the Bill of Rights which is a made up name to describe the first ten amendments were not added until after the Constitution was ratified nor were they the only proposed amendments at the time so they hold the same weight as any other amendment to the Constitution.

    Second the Bill of Rights itself states that just because those rights are enumerated does not mean that others aren't retained by the people.

    Third the Bill of Rights does require someone to do something for you so I suggest that you read it over and over until you see how they require others to do something. Let me give you a few examples to get you started.

    It requires someone to:

    1) ask for your consent before quartering soldiers;
    2) give you a speedy trial;
    3) give you an impartial jury;
    4) inform you of the nature of your alleged crime;
    4) give you compulsory process to obtain witnesses;
    5) ensure you legal counsel; and
    6) grant you reasonable bail.

  • Matthew
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:37 a.m.

    Sounds like most Utahns now value comfort over freedom and deserve neither. Planning ahead and paying for healthcare out of pocket is uncomfortable, but healthcare is already "available" to everyone.

    It boggles my mind that so many saw the Bush wiretaps as a sure sign that big brother is going to run our lives but can't see that more dependency on government leads to true vulnerability to that kind of tyranny.

    It doesn’t matter what the president or his people say in public now to appear centrist. The left is based on creating as much government dependency as possible though they may see it as a truly good thing and call it by more palatable names.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:36 a.m.

    If health care is a "right" then having a home should also be considered a "right". Does that mean the government will next be taking the money from working Americans to provide a home for every person in the United States?

  • Show me JUST ONE...
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:34 a.m.

    ...Instance of where the government has provided anything cheaper than the private sector?

    Name one?

    Don't give an example of something that is subsidized behind the scenes either.

    The government has an absolutely horrific record at doing anything efficiently yet stupid people go on about how they can provide competition and do it for less.

    Your IQ's are pretty low if you actually believe that.

  • Mary
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:33 a.m.

    News media, hollywood, schools, government, scientists, churches... the pod people have taken over. Agree totally with Andrew's comments.

  • to tax burden
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:33 a.m.

    Okay, maybe it isn't quite half. Add on stimulus money paid to you that I didn't get. That is equal to a double tax on me. Add to that gas tax, sales tax, phone usage tax, property tax on my home and my business building, tax on my business equipment.

    My accountant has estimated my taxes for this year at $20k state and $89k federal. I have already paid $57k in federal with $31k more estimated. Maybe I make more than you - why should I pay more for the same services that you get? Can I count on the police or fire department coming to my house first. Have you gone 1.5 million into debt, sticking your kneck out to start a new business? Do you lose sleep worrying about paying your business loan.

    On the flip side. Do you provide jobs for 10 people with insurance benefits and 401k.

    Stick it to the "rich" right. You had better pray that the "rich" stick around. After you have pulled them down who will pay for police and roads?

  • I ate Cosmo
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:32 a.m.

    To Metamoracoug
    What rank do you believe the United States is at in Health Care? If u think it's lower than 34, you're kidding yourself. My diversity and health professor says we are ranked 34th in the world in health care. Also, google usa rank in health care and you'll find the answer.

  • GET used to it.
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:32 a.m.

    Health care is a right. 'Life' and 'pursuit of happiness' are both dependent on good health.

    It really ticks me off when those of you are complaining about paying for others' health care are the FIRST ones at the government trough. You send your kids to public schools on public roads. You expect the fire department and police department to protect your property. You expect you're garbage to be picked up. You expect the snow to get plowed and the traffic lights to work. You expect your internet to work (the infrastructure was developed with my tax dollars). You expect your tithing to be tax deductible. This could go on and on.

    Please PLEASE return all the money that I PAID for your lifestyle.

    80% of Utahns believe health care is a right. Most Americans believe health care is a right. Public health care will happen. Get used to it.

  • Not a right
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:31 a.m.

    If healthcare can be denied to any individual, it is not a right. What the socialists now in control of the US government are doing is forming a system that will deny end of life care to seniors. Their alternative? Give them a handful of pain pills and have a nice life. If care can be denied, it is not a right.

  • Life Choices
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:30 a.m.

    Silly libs, health care is a responsibility.

  • Re-Andrew
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:26 a.m.

    What a patriotic reference to the Founding Fathers. You're living in the past pal. The founding fathers owned slaves and manifest destiny to steal land from indigenous tribes was A-okay. Health care is here and now. So we'll slap the socialist label on health care and problem solved, NOT! I pay all kinds of taxes for socialist services like roads, schools, prisons, military forces, National Parks et. al. I guess we should scrap all these programs for the common welfare. We're paying way to much for health care through bankruptcies and charities while insurance execs get wealthy. We can do health care for the common good, we've done it before.

  • Dems simply not truthful
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:24 a.m.

    The claim that the current legislation reduces the deficit is a scam. How do they make this claim? They enact the fines and taxes years before the benefits. Collect taxes and fines for 10 years and only provide benefits for 6, and low and behold we cut the deficit! Not to mention the racket of saying they are cutting Medicare reimbursements to help "pay" for the costs, while at the same time they are crafting another bill to put all that money back into Medicare. That's right, maybe if the American people don't watch, we can fool them into thinking Medicare will be cut, while we don't lower it at all, but simply take it out in one bill and claim the savings, and put it back in the next bill that no one will pay attention to. Dishonest at best, devious at worst. Dems proposals on insurance are as solution based as cap and trade on actually cutting emissions. It is all about money and power, not solving the problems at hand.

  • merv
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:22 a.m.

    To those who say health care should be a right: I try to maintain good health but I know that anyone can get sick. I don't see why I have to help pay for those who choose to take drugs or have lifestyles that give them aids or other diseases. These people cost the rest of us an unbelievable amount of money.

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:22 a.m.

    to stumblefall:


    Is government mandated charity really qualify as my being charitable? I think not.

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:20 a.m.

    to wallofvoodoo:


  • MegP
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:19 a.m.

    Wake up my fellow citizens, taxpayers, voters:

    When the government gets to choose your healthcare options, you have stratification of healthcare; they do the rationing. And, the guys at the top always get more than any of the rest of us because it is their privilege of position, which has been PAID FOR through the compulsory taxation of you and me. Check out President Obama’s personal healthcare plan. It is 100% top drawer, unrestrained, healthcare for him! His alone, because he is The President.

    His Healthcare, you and I will never have, except through charity or self-pay. No insurance plan, no government program is ever going to give the American People what Obama gets through compulsory means (we pay his total costs) that is designed to only benefit him. We access his level of healthcare through the charity of others who have voluntarily given, or if we come with Fort Knox.

    When we talk about healthcare, rights, and equality, in this world it always comes down to money and position. Leave this out of the discussion to our own peril and loss of freedom and means to pay for ourselves, and give and care for others

  • Health Care is a right
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:19 a.m.

    Health insurance is not. That is why emergency rooms must treat patients regardless of ability to pay. Remove the government restrictions on health insurance and costs will lower. Enact tort reform and costs will lower. Do anything the Democrats are proposing and costs will skyrocket both in terms of what you pay for insurance and what Uncle Sam takes from you in taxes to pay for your insurance. Government cannot run Medicare and Medicaid and yet the Dems want them to delve deeper into providing health insurance. Are they crazy!?!

  • Not A Right!
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:17 a.m.

    Health care is not a 'Right', due to it being provided by another person! When one person wants a better life at the expense of another, that is not a 'Right' ... if it was then could the old southern slave-masters have claimed it was a 'Right'?

    Remember: T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. ... There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!


  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:13 a.m.

    to from a belgian:

    Thank you for your thoughtful input.

    There are several important differences between the US and most European countries that make nationalized healthcare here a much more difficult issue:

    1) As a whole Americans lead a very unhealthy lifestyle compared to Europeans. We have horrible health habits. The amount of our sugar and fat intake compared to Europeans, for example, would astound you. And, as I'm sure you've noticed, we tend to get little or no exercise. An ever increasing number of us are not just overweight, but grossly obese. Because most Europeans have healthier lifestyles, it costs less to keep them healthy.

    2) There are more of us. None of the present nationalized healthcare systems cover as many people as it would require in the US.

    3) Frankly, much of Europe's healthcare is indirectly funded by the high cost of US healthcare. Our drug companies are forced to sell things there cheaply and make up the difference by charging us more. Such is also the case with exported medical procedures and technologies.

    This is a short list, but enough for you to get the picture.

  • Health care a right?
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:11 a.m.

    Although these survey results surprise me, a couple of qualifiers are needed to put things in context: (1) Basic health care (not elective) may be moving in the public's mind toward right vs privilege status, but that doesn't mean it becomes a government entitlement--government has demonstrated time and again its ineffectiveness at delivering quality vs the private market; and (2) the US already has a "safety net" to handle the Good Samaritan example of a man falling injured on the sidewalk---the Hill Burton Act, requiring hospitals that accept federal funds in their construction (virtually all of them) to provide indigent care. I recognize there are other coverage gaps that need addressing, but hopefully sanity will prevail in Congress to avoid a government takeover of health care....

  • Where's my free rifle?
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:10 a.m.

    If health care is a "right" that should provided by the government, then why shouldn't the government pay to help us exercise all the real rights outlined in the Constitution?

    Specifically, I'm talking about the Second Amendment. Back in the old days, the government would acutally provide muskets free of charge to the local militias who needed them. The only requirement was the individual maintain and shoot it and be available for militia duty.

    Of course things have changed and the government no longer uses muskets. But if they want to give people the "right" to free health care (which is impossible, BTW) then they should also give them the right to free guns.

    Now, I recognize that everyone must sacrifice, so I won't demand a new top-of-the-line M4 with an ACOG. The federal government has millions of unused M-14s just sitting around in need of good homes; I could provide for at least one of them.

    Heck, I'll sacrifice even more and just accept a Garand from the CMP (with a few extra cans of M2 ball ammo, please). No need to thank me; it's my civic duty.

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:05 a.m.

    Public Health care may not be a right, but it is the right thing to do!

  • MGH
    Oct. 22, 2009 9:04 a.m.

    It is easy to say that health care is a right but I think there are a lot of questions that need to be debated and answered before changes are made to the current system.

    If health care is a right, how much care do you have a right to? Who gets to decide and how do they decide it? Who has the responsibility to pay for it? If the volume of health care that we have a right to exceeds the resources available to provide it does the government then have the obligation to conscript people to be health care providers? If the government gets to make decisions on rationing health care is it truly a right?

  • Realist
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:57 a.m.

    Who do we think we're kidding? We boast about having the best health care in the world, but we rank 34th. That means there are 33 other countries in the world with superior health care... and at a lower cost.

    Our medical system is a total disaster!!

    It's time we pulled our head out of the sand and started learning from counties that have it figured out; we certainly don't.

    If we were to look beyond our borders we would see that we are the laughing stock of the world when it comes to health care.

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:56 a.m.

    to WH

    Thank you for your input.

    I think you would find that most of our nation was also not in favor of bailing out the banks or auto industry. But like healthcare, it happened because our congressional representatives no longer really represent us or are concerned about what is best for our nation -- only about what lines their pockets.

  • Health Care over Education!
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:55 a.m.

    The question is whether PUBLIC EDUCATION is more of a right than PUBLIC HEALTH CARE. Neither is a right from a constitutional stance. Living in today's society, I would rather have public health care and private education. It is more important for me to choose who educates the hearts and minds of my children than to choose who writes a generic prescription, performs a routine surgery, etc...that is already controlled by government and governing medical boards. Why are people against public health care and then feel just fine about sending their children to a public school?

  • MIke in Texas
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:53 a.m.

    The U.S. Constitution tells us that it seeks to promote "Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness" for all of its citizens. If adequate medical care is not a constitutional "right",then don't we need to amend the founding document to eliminate the reference to "Life" as a part of the basic legal and moral framework for our society?

  • Nathan
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:50 a.m.

    Look at the wording of the question. Utahns were asked whether everyone has a right "to obtain" health care. It's a stupid question. Of course we have that right.

    Ask us whether we believe that taxpayers should be forced to provide health care for everyone else. I guarantee you'll get a different result.

  • from Walter Williams
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:48 a.m.

    "Absent Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, the only way government can give one American a dollar in the name of this or that good thing is by taking it from some other American by force."

  • Health Care is NOT a Right
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:47 a.m.

    The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights have one thing in common; they don't require anyone else to do something for you.

    Does health care fit that description? If not, then it's not a right.

  • Man of Peace
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:44 a.m.

    I am sick and tired of those war-mongering politicians taking my tax money to pay for WARS OF ADVENTURE. This is communism, too!

  • re: I am a simple person
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:44 a.m.

    Yes, you are, with a simple mind at the helm. Why do you think you have any stronger claim to your earned money than a corporate executive has to his/hers?

    Do you work harder than any corporate executive?

    Are you smarter than any corporate executive?

    Have you created more jobs than any corporate executive?

    Have you already paid more taxes than any corporate executive?

    Have you already contributed more to charity than any corporate executive?

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:44 a.m.

    to anonymous @ 3:21

    I'm not certain where you obtained your stat about US healthcare being #34. Unless you can provide me a credible reference, I'm very dubious.

  • anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:42 a.m.

    Over 80% of Utahns think health care is a right. It appears that most commenters on the Deseret News comment board disagree. Can anyone else hear the echo in this chamber?

  • Well
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:40 a.m.

    I am covered by medical insurance, but at the same time I don't have the attitude of "I've got mine, who cares about everyone else."

    Think of what would happen to this society if every individual was only out for themselves.

  • metamoracoug
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:39 a.m.

    to Mike H:

    I'm personally afraid of government health care because once a program is in place it can never be removed.

    For example, under President Carter the Energy and Education Departments were organized. Since that time billions of dollars have been spent by these government agencies. And yet, what are two of our greatest concerns? Energy and education. All that money has done nothing. In fact, if anything, our present situation is even more precarious than it was prior to the creation of these departments.

    So, if nationalized healthcare proves not to be beneficial will we be able to eliminate it? Not any more likely than our ridding ourselves of the Energy and Education departments.

  • then pay for it
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:37 a.m.

    if we all want a nationalized health care system then we all need to pay for it. that means everyone gets taxed. this is what happens in other countries but people here seen to forget that point. What's Canada's tax rate? 40%? 50%? the CBO reported last month that 30% of americans after filing thier taxes dont pay Federal income tax.....So if we want this then everyone needs to pay for it, not just everyone else.

  • to Archie Bunker
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:34 a.m.

    Re-read the numbers (Mike Richards & RedShirt) --
    80% of Conservative Utah agrees it is a basic human right.

    You ultra-far-right-wing-nut-cakes are IN the minority OF the minority; on just about every issue you argue.

    Get a clue.

  • Wrex
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:30 a.m.

    This is a defining moment in our history. We can remain a first world country, or we can continue to let our standard of living decline.

    Do you want a truly civilized society, where everyone has access to affordable, reasonable health care?

    Or would you rather continue the descent into our emerging status as a second world country?

    The basic question is: which future do you want?

  • Tax burden=30% of this rich guy
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:29 a.m.

    RE:Anonymous @ 7:13 a.m.

    "Where is the liberty in me giving half of the money I earn to the government..."

    You DON'T give half of the money you earn to the government. Let me explain the federal tax system first. It is a tiered system. Now let's assume you are married and filing jointly.

    This means that the first $16,700 of your income is taxed at 10% ($1,670), the amount between $16,700 and $67,900 (51,200) is taxed at 15% ($7,680), the amount between $67,900 and $137,050 ($69,150) is taxed at 25% ($17,287.50) and the amount between $137,050 and $208,850 ($71,800) is taxed at 28% ($20,104). This means a person making $208,850 is taxed $46,741.50 or 22% of their income in federal taxes.

    State income tax for this individual would be $14,433.83 or $11,173.48 (choose the lower). This raised their tax burden to 27%. Depending on where they live a house worth 450,000 would result in a $5,543 in property taxes raising their tax burden to 30%. I bet you make less!

  • Difference
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:22 a.m.

    There is a definite difference between Health Care and Insurance. When the media stops putting the two together, then we can have a legitimate amount of information going.

    Health Care - Yes. It should be available to everyone. No one should be denied basics - Well care exams, vaccines. The type of care that is for healthy people.

    Health Insurance - Individuals need to pay up. This is to help out with possible illnesses that may occur in the future when health declines and you are not able to meet the guidelines of a healthy person.

    I don't want the government to be in charge of my health care payment plan. They have shown lack of ability to take care of Social Security and other debt causing agencies. I do, however, want them to regulate the insurance companies to end the cap on health care due to an extended illness or an illness that causes a large amount of money to be spent (cancer, prosthetics, assistance for health - wheelchairs, etc). It's not the person's fault when they become ill with some types of cancer. It just "happens".

  • re: Health Care
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:18 a.m.

    Sure, call it a basic human right; however, you don't have the right to expect someone else to pay for yours.


  • Know It All
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    Rights? You people should be happy you have the "right" to breathe the atmosphere, and not be charged for it!

  • Joe S.
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    Health care is a product. You can tell that it is a product because someone HAS to produce it. Money gives you access to a product. If you don't have the money, you don't have access.

    Just like a house, a car, food, or any other product or service, they are typically dependent upon someone else to produce. Saying that you have a RIGHT to their product or productivity with out fair exchange is theft.

  • Andrew
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:14 a.m.

    Kiss America goodbye folks. We have already lost the vision that the Founding Fathers had created for all generations. Never in the history of this country has any retail product been made mandatory by the federal government. Now we are on the verge of being required to carry health insurance whether we need it or not. Auto insurance is still not required to be purchased if you do not drive. Soon that will change as well.

    Make no mistake this is a slippery slope that once we fall down we will NEVER be able to recover from. This is the end of 225 years of individual focus and achievement. We are no longer a free people.

    Every country that has tried what we are about to do is in serious trouble. Permanent double digit unemployment. Permanent double digit taxes. Permanent double digit inflation. No medical innovation, no cutting edge medical discoveries, and no medical leadership. Why? There is no incentive to remain the leader. That position will be punished into oblivion by universal health care.

    Adieu America. Adieu freedom. Adieu individualism. Adieu...

  • Ho hum...
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:12 a.m.


    The left is trying their old tactics of making-up new 'rights' to push their agenda.

    It isn't enough that their is equal access for all, there must be in the lefty socialist totalitarian 'utopia' the same outcome - except, of course, for themselves. 'progressives' are special, you see, and they don't have to obey the orders they issue for the proles.

    Freedom=bad; socialism=good, repeat along with barryy, harry and nancy...

  • Selfishness
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:12 a.m.

    The article is right in that most people think healthcare is a right. But the conservative viewpoint of is that healthcare is a right for them and thier families only. Everyone else has to pay for it.

  • Take a stand
    Oct. 22, 2009 8:03 a.m.

    Wait, everybody can go to a hospital and receive treatment, Insurance or not. The problem is that hospital bills have become so outrageous because we the consumer have let them. We figure, Okay treat me, I don't care what it costs, the insurance company will pay for it. The health idustry has expenencially increased its costs over the past twenty years because they know they will get paid. Even if the insurance company is going to pay for it, can't we stand up and say "enough is enough"? There is a reason why insurance coverage is so high, they need to make up for outrageous hospital bills. And it's all because WE allow it to happen.

  • Does anyone know where the LDS
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:58 a.m.

    Church stands on National Health Insurance?
    I'm wondering if the LDS Church if for or against National Health Coverage?

  • Interesting comments
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:55 a.m.

    What it appears is that this country is really in is described in the story of the "Camel and the tent." Give an inch and before you know, you are booted out and have nothing.

  • cb
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:54 a.m.

    You do not have the right to expect your neighbor to pay for your bad health choices. We have forgotten how much charities used to do in this country. Everybody is for helping others but charity is not done through the force of taxation. Think of how much more we could help the needy if we did not pay so much in taxes.

  • MegP
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:51 a.m.

    Faith, Hope, & Charity & the greatest of these is Charity...Love one another as I have loved you...Be our brothers Keeper...Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    Healthcare is a privilege; not a right. Charity is the gift that makes it possible. Yes, we can take care of one another, but not through compulsory government programs. Charity is voluntary. No one stops any of us from giving to charity, irregardless of tax incentives. We can always give what we can in our time,talents & means.

    If we all were generous, & thought of others first before filling our own temporal wants (not needs), yes, the world would be a better place.

    None of us have unlimited monies; we all have to budget their use. How we spend our discretionary funds, whether on charity or a house bigger than we need; whether on building our bank account & investment portfolio or forgiving someone's debt; whether on someone else's needs (not wants) or on keeping up with the Jones.

    Charity is the answer: Donate your time, talents & means to your favorite Healthcare. Mine is LDS - IHC - IMC.

  • Reality check...
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:50 a.m.

    So healthcare is a basic human right? If so, what else are human rights? Food, shelter, a car? I could easily argue that food and shelter are more basic human rights than healthcare and yet there are millions of people throughout the world that not only don't have access to healthcare, they don't have adequate food or shelter either.

    If these things are basic human rights, why do so many in the world wake up each day wondering where their next meal is going to come from?

    Unfortunately, we don't live in a utopian, ideal world where governments have unlimited resources and can just write a check for every citizen in their country to have whatever they need or want. There are always financial restraints and concerns that don't make this utopian world possible (Obama's solution is to just print more money). Last I checked, our country is already insolvent.

    When it comes to "basic human rights" and entitlements, where do you draw the line? Food, shelter, cars? At what point do people take a measure of responsibilty to provide for themselves and not rely on the government and others to make their way?

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:44 a.m.

    Approach it as a right under Christian teachings. Why do we want to deprive health care for millions of Americans, most through no fault of their own, and even if some stupidly jeopardize themselves. I think Christian teachings would have us help any way. Yep, I'll "err" in that direction....

  • stumblefall
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:43 a.m.

    To: Listen to yourselves

    So in your opinion, LTY, one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is supporting government in its efforts to forcibly seize taxpayer funds to provide basic services?

    Isn't it possible that a true Christian believes in freedom? Somewhere in the teachings of the LDS Church I believe there might be a section about agency, I'm not sure...maybe like we actually get to choose to do right or wrong, without being forced by Satan to do right...something like that.

    This life is the time to prepare to meet God. If you really are a Christian and do your best to help out your neighbors, you will be blessed for it. Inserting the government into the equation makes it much more difficult for us to have the choice to help out charitably. I don't envision God interviewing the 80% of Utahns that believe healthcare is a right and saying "It's okay that you misunderstood one of the most fundamental aspects of the Plan of Salvation and ended up taking Satan's side in this argument. I can see how it was confusing."

  • wallofvoodoo
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:43 a.m.

    Until doctors, lawyers, health insurance companies & health care companies start going out of business beacuse nobody can afford care will you get the attention of any Utah politicians. Change it now or this will happen.

  • I don't care what you think
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:41 a.m.


    "I think we need to differentiate on whether health CARE is a right, or heath INSURANCE is a right."

    I don't care what you think. You can try to differentiate between health care and health insurance but it makes you a fool.

    It's time for the kid gloves to come off. I just wished the Deseret News allowed profanity because you would hear exactly what I think about you and your opinion and I can guarantee you that you have not heard the likes of it before.

    "How about my right to have a medical savings plan, in lieu of costly insurance? My right to negotiate with Dr.s on the cost of treatment, or the right of insurance companies to compete state-to-state, nationwide?"

    When you can't afford it and the government has to give subsidies to hospitals because you were rushed there after you got into a car accident and accrued an 800,000 to $1.5 million dollar bill then we can talk. Let's see how far your medical savings plan goes then but I bet you will want charity or government to pay.

  • Push poll
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:28 a.m.

    That question was very obviously slanted to elicit a certain answer. Sloppy reporting.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:18 a.m.

    A right to "access" is much different than a right to have it.

    Everyone, even illegal aliens, has a right to access. No one is turned down.

  • MR. B
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:15 a.m.

    To Senators Hatch & Bennett,
    I hope that you are able to sleep at night when you sit in judgement over millions of people's lives and decide that the health insurance companies should be able to send some of us into financial ruin BECAUSE WE GOT SICK. When did the Republican party lose its ability to be compassionate? Why shouldn't we have access to the same health care that our elected officials have?

  • Evets
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:15 a.m.

    Another DN Health sob story defending universal health care. Sometime I feel I a reading the SL Tribune. Are you guys sharing writers?
    First, health care is not a right BUT we as a society try to get health care to everyone. Working in the health care industry I know that overall the industry tries to help all regardless of ability to pay. I know....there are still exceptions.
    Second, most conservative I know want insurance reform, tort reform, and some type of health safety net. They just don't want Obamacare or Obama-lite. Why tear apart a good system when simple reforms will fix it at a lower cost.
    Third, government health care is not free or cheap. It costs a lot in tax dollars. Have you ever seen anything the government does that is cheaper than private industry? I have been around for over six decades and I sure have not.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:13 a.m.

    How about the right to keep some of the money I earn. Where is the liberty in me giving half of the money I earn to the government who then decides to give it to people who don't even pay taxes (stimulus package - that I didn't get) or cash for a new car (cash for clunkers). If I have to pay for someones health care, I should have a say in their health. If you don't excercise 5 days a week for 30 minutes or if you eat fast food, or if you watch TV, I should have the "right" to force you to comply.

    Hatch describes our rights, health care is not one of them. The more control we give our government, the fewer rights we will have.

  • Founding Fathers
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:13 a.m.

    Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Note, happiness is not guaranteed, merely the pursuit. Health care is a privilege, not a right. You are paying for a service.

  • ANON
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:11 a.m.

    You have the right to take care of your self. You do not have the right to have someone else take care of you after you reach a certain age and are mentally able to.

  • Janet
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:10 a.m.

    There are many rights that we take for granted in 2009 America that were not dreamed of by the Framers, nor mentioned in the Constitution. This is an argument between the haves and have-nots. My husband and I are both employed, and we are double-covered. My sister's husband is self-employed, and my sister is his only "employee," although she does not get a salary, as such. They have never been able to afford health care. They have worked very hard, brought up eight kids, and always paid their way, but they have never made any more money than they needed for the basics. While I can't afford to pay their medical costs, I would gladly pay a little more in taxes to help. We who have been greatly blessed cannot afford to be haughty. "Are we not all beggars?"

  • Bob Newsome
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:09 a.m.

    I hope Hatch never has a suffering grandchild go untreated because of a profit oriented market based system of health care, but I find his views disturbing. But of course he probably gets enough money from the insurance and tobacco industries to not ever have to worry about these things.

  • stumblefall
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:07 a.m.

    Health care is not a right. The argument that it is as much a right as universal education is absolutely correct, because education is not a right, either. It should surprise no one that having fulfilled one of Marx's main tenets for socialism / communism (free education for all) that our populous now has come to the conclusion that health care is a right.

    Rights come from God. The Constitution protects those rights. You can't simply make up a right and start enforcing it with a gun, even by a Constitutional amendment. One of the basic rights is property. It is unconscionable to seize my property (in this case, by taxing my money) to pay for someone else's healthcare.

    "Who are we to say who can or can't have good health?" Who are YOU to say how MY money should be spent? "Who are we to tell people if they can live or die?" Who are YOU to play God with my rights?

    These kinds of arguments are made by those who want to right the wrongs in the world by appealing to the force of government. But only free, God-fearing individuals can truly succeed.

  • From a Belgian
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:07 a.m.

    As a Belgian living in Utah, it is hard to understand how those against "health care right" immediately shout "communism". That's a simplistic generalization.

    Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Germany... all have universal health care without being "communist" countries. These industrialized nations have found ways to make sure all citizens enjoy health care, just as they provide education to the children. The US is lagging behind and reform is really necessary.

  • Doug G
    Oct. 22, 2009 7:03 a.m.

    We've established institutions like the military, police, fire protection, public education, etc. because we know that these are necessary for everyone in society. They are paid for by all of us. None among us will ever 'need' a big screen tv or SUV. We all will need health care. All of us. That's why we should all have it as a cornerstone of our society.

  • Foreign health care
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:55 a.m.

    Have you seen what happens in England or Australia or other countries with government health care??? The wait just to see a GP is days if not weeks and to get major surgery???!!!!

    My husband and I didn't have insurance the first few years of our married life and we KNEW that and to steps accordingly. We had a savings account for just in case, and we were made sure that we took care of ourselves and our children, (yes we had those while we had no insurance and paid the doctor along the way).

    Insurance is NOT A RIGHT, IT IS A PRIVILEGE!!!!!

    People need to get over this sense of entitlement. Should we try and help our 'community'? Definitely. But community should be helping themselves too!!

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:38 a.m.

    People should have the right to the amazing healthcare we have today. Should it be free? Absolutly not. Yes, there could be some reform, but not what Obama and his comunist friends are coming up with.

  • Listen to yourselves
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:29 a.m.

    People of Utah, readers of the Deseret News, fellow Mormons (I assume most Deseret News readers are LDS)...

    Listen to what it is that you are saying. Out of one side of your mouth you sneer at people unfortunate enough to not have the ability to get adequate medical care for them or their children. And out of the other side of your mouths you complain that many people outside Utah (read not LDS) say the Mormons aren't "Christian". Well, Mormons are Christian, really, but you wouldn't know it by their attitude on this issue. Many Utahns (read LDS) truly are not Christian on this issue of providing basic health care to everyone.

    As has been been stated every other industrialized (and many not so industrialized) country provides basic health care to their citizens at a fraction of the cost that we do. These people in these "other" countries generally live longer and are healthier than we are and they don't go bankrupt when they get sick.

    Let's see if we can truly be Christians on this issue, Utahns can do better in their attitudes toward those less fortunate.

  • Democrats are right on this issu
    Oct. 22, 2009 6:15 a.m.

    The mark of a decent person is to be conserned about the well being of people other than themselves. If it was true that the only people without access to decent health care were people who refused to work, I could see the conservative point of view, but that isn't the case.

    There are many working people, working at jobs where health care insurance isn't an option. I myself was laid off from a job and couldn't find another job with insurance for over 2 years.

    One of the companies I had worked for during that period was 3-Com making palm pilots west of the Salt Lake Airport. I was working next to others who had health insurance, but all new employees hired to do that job such as I couldn't get it. I was technically working not for 3-Com but for a subcontractor they paid to supply them with workers.

    I found it interesting and reprehensible they could afford to pay millions to get Candle Stick park named to 3-Com park and that they could afford to pay all the top execs millions each, but we couldn't get health insurance.

  • WH
    Oct. 22, 2009 5:41 a.m.

    I am from Europe and to me it is difficult to understand why healthcare reform is such a controversial subject in the US. To all outside observers it is obvious that the US healthcare system is long overdue for a major overhaul. I must say that the socialized healthcare system found in many European countries work quite well, even though that too has its shortcomings. Anyway basic healthcare should be a right for everybody, I do not think it is right to compare it to buying luxury goods.

    I think it is strange that in the US many think it is perfectly OK to spend tax money to heal sick banks, but spending it to heal sick people would be an abomination.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 5:22 a.m.

    Whatever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Right have your neighbor pay for your doctor visit? Hmmm ...

  • Stickfigure
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:56 a.m.

    I think we need to differentiate on whether health CARE is a right, or heath INSURANCE is a right. If a person is taken to an emergency room, that person will be treated, as it is against the law for them to be denied treatment.

    How about my right to have a medical savings plan, in lieu of costly insurance? My right to negotiate with Dr.s on the cost of treatment, or the right of insurance companies to compete state-to-state, nationwide?

  • Please, no sob stories.
    Oct. 22, 2009 4:11 a.m.

    Whether or not you have insurance for some personal reason is immaterial and a personal choice. When people can get insurance with a job it is a personal choice to buy it or not and that's the way it should be.

    Health care and education is not a right. They are privileges. As a right the state can tax us for education and we only have the right, as citizens, to use these taxes for education, but only for the primary 12 years. Higher education is not included in our constitutuion as taxable and is illegal.

    It is unconstituional for citizens to expect government be personal benefactors of government spending or welfare for any reason including health care. Free enterprise and freedom of choice is the right we have as citizens.

    There is no comparison of american health care system to other industrialized nations who have at best a low end health care system. And they don't have or pay insurance companies. These other industrialized nations own the health care system, its doctors, hospitals, drug companies that control costs and services. It's not a free market system with individual choices, government chooses care.

  • Utah Doc
    Oct. 22, 2009 3:40 a.m.

    The Constitution does not mention health care as a "right". While it sounds nice, healthcare is not guaranteed under the Constitution.

    The governments all controlling approach will drain what's left of the incentive out of medicine. You'll be hard pressed to find a smart kid that will spend 12 years in school only to get out and work for government wages.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 3:21 a.m.

    We have a right to lower health bills too.

    If we are paying more than any other nation for healthcare than we should have the best healthcare.

    Instead only the wealthy can afford good healthcare and the rest of us with insurance cannot even get it or afford it.

    The United States healthcare overall is rated #34 not #1.

    This means we should only be paying less for healthcare than 33 other countries.

    The American Consumer is getting ripped off.

    The Healthcare system in this country is a Farce Scam!


  • I am a simple person
    Oct. 22, 2009 2:43 a.m.

    I tend to see things in simple terms. If I have a choice to vote for people who will raise taxes on coroprate executives who get the mult-million dollar bonuses, in order to ensure that all kids and their hard working parents get health care I will.

    We accept that education not only is a right, but is beneficial to society. All the arguments against health care can also be brought education.

    We are all in this together. Those of us who have gotten the breaks need to share with those who are on the bottom rungs. I am an engineer, I have a good job. Were it not for public education, who knows where I would be?

  • kim
    Oct. 22, 2009 2:14 a.m.

    To Nic "and if the poor need to die, why let them die, and decrease the surplus population!" You sound just like scrooge.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:57 a.m.

    Heath care is definitely a right! Who are we to say who can or can't have good health? Who are we to tell people if they can live or die?

    This argument is so obvious it seems stupid to me.

  • MikeH
    Oct. 22, 2009 1:25 a.m.

    We place police, fire protection and education above the right to health care. If life is not a right, what is?

    Why are the bailout capitalists so afraid of Government competition, if they are so wasteful?

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:55 a.m.

    So when communists and socialists vote to take your hard earned money and property under the color of law do we have a right to resist violently?

  • Nic
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:33 a.m.

    In your dreams "he will be treated". My son 'fell down on the side walk', he was not 'all right' and was not 'treated' because 'of his ability to pay'. He needed a heart transplant ~$750,000.

    If you can not pay for medical care you should not get it! Only those who want something for nothing demand medical care as a right.

  • Re: Re: Aric 11:06 pm
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:29 a.m.

    Keep your head in the sand if you want. Every other industrialized nation but ours has figured out some system of universal coverage. Guess whose citizens pay through the nose for their health care? That would be us Americans.

    We may not pay for commissions, but we pay for insurance companies' marketing, big bonuses to their executives, and dividends to their shareholders. We pay for the inefficiency of several companies all trying to do the same thing and our doctors having to keep all the different billing procedures and plan details straight (and directly related to this, the waste on both ends when procedures have been billed incorrectly). We pay for debt collectors to harrass people with no ability to pay their outlandish bills. We pay for dubious procedures that cover our doctors' butts more often than they provide any material benefit to patients. No commission is that expensive or wasteful.

    Every other nation in the world with a standard of living comparable to ours has found one way or another to cover everybody at a cost that is substantially lower per capita than what the average American pays for a year of healthcare.

  • Lew Jeppson
    Oct. 22, 2009 12:27 a.m.

    Of course health care is a right, that's why we mandate hospital emergency rooms treat regardless of the ability to pay. All we're talking about here, with reform, is making this arrangement more reasonable, equitable, and timely. What part of this does Senator Hatch not understand?

  • Logic Please
    Oct. 21, 2009 11:54 p.m.

    To "No Medical Insurance" My goodness how people get confused.
    First off, I'm sorry about you and your wife losing jobs and insurance; I've been there myself.

    But what does your paying taxes, and MY paying taxes all these years have anything to do with your losing health insurance when you lost your job? You GAVE that money to the GOVERNMENT so they could WASTE it. Do we want to give MORE money to the government in HOPES that in their benevolence they'll give us a Wonderful health care system?

    Have you seen the abysmal state that Medicaid and Medicare are in?

  • Re: Aric 11:06 pm
    Oct. 21, 2009 11:41 p.m.

    "Society CAN come together and decide that each member will make a certain contribution toward the well-being of the whole community, and that community members will benefit according to their need and the resources available."

    Nice. Society can decide that each member has to make a certain contribution. Which commission will decide this? How will they enforce it? How many tax dollars do you think they'll spend on these commissions & enforcements?

    I'm sure that would make health care MUCH less expensive.

  • Rights?
    Oct. 21, 2009 11:33 p.m.

    There are only two kinds of rights.

    There are unalienable rights given by God such as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

    Then there are rights given to you by the government, such as A driver's license gives you the right to drive on public roads, or a hunting license allows you to hunt. As such the government can give, and the government can take those away.

    Certainly health care is not an unalienable right.

  • No medical insurance
    Oct. 21, 2009 11:29 p.m.

    My wife and I have college degrees. My wife lost her job last month. I was rif by the state due to budget cuts. Cobra is to expensive we can't afford it. It is more costly than what my wife will get from her unemployment insurance monthly. What will you do? on my situation. What did we do wrong? Where is all the tax money that I had pay all this years? Why should I pay taxes if I had nothing back exept to drive in the freeway. What do I want a freeway when I dont have a chance to see a physician when I am sick neither access to medication. This is sick. All of this ignorants talking against changes in the medical care system of this country I bet they don't have medical insurance. Does Mr Hatch has medical insurance? Sure pay by the tax payers money. What a joke.

  • Aric
    Oct. 21, 2009 11:06 p.m.

    I'm not sure if I view health care as a right, but I do believe that a compassionate society accepts the responsibility to care for its own. The argument I've heard from conservatives is that the only "true" way to do this is on an ad-hoc, hodge-podge, volunteer basis, where each person contributes to cases they deem desirable and withholds support from cases they deem undesirable, so that care for the needy becomes some kind of sick popularity contest.

    I strongly disagree with this viewpoint. Society CAN come together and decide that each member will make a certain contribution toward the well-being of the whole community, and that community members will benefit according to their need and the resources available. We already provide some care to those in need, but we do it in expensive, inefficient, often humiliating ways. We can do better, and in doing so we can significantly reduce costs for everyone.

  • Then...
    Oct. 21, 2009 11:01 p.m.

    If health coverage is a right, so is owning a big screen TV or a new SUV for the winter. I think the government should give me everything else as well.

  • ok
    Oct. 21, 2009 10:55 p.m.

    So are "Rights" paid for by the government? Just, what is a "Right" and why is it a "crises" now verses 5 years, or 10 years ago? If I have a "Right" to carry a gun does that make you financially sssssliable for that "Right"?

  • Brian
    Oct. 21, 2009 10:55 p.m.

    Yep. Those mean old conservatives just want to see people dying in the street! Thanks Deseret News for setting us all straight on that!