Charity — not theft

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  • Cyrus
    Aug. 25, 2009 1:00 p.m.

    Interesting article

  • Roland Kayser
    July 27, 2009 10:31 p.m.

    If you look at the totality of taxes paid, not just the income tax, you find that the super wealthy pay about the same percentage of their income in taxes as the middle class. They pay a higher percentage of their income in income taxes, we pay a higher percentage of ours in payroll taxes, property taxes, and most state taxes, including sales and consumption taxes. Warren Buffet, the world's wealthiest man, pays a lower share of his income in taxes than his secretay does.

  • Bill Gronberg
    July 27, 2009 9:57 p.m.

    "Some 40% of the population pays NO taxes at all." You have tunnel vision. NONSENSE. You are stuck on INCOME TAX ONLY. There are other taxes besides income tax. My 1040 FORMS & INSTRUCTIONS for 2008 on page 91 gives the "Major Categories of Federal Income and Outlays for Fiscal Year 2007.

    Personal income taxes 43 %.

    Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment and other retirement taxes 32 %.

    Corporate income taxes 13 %

    Excise, customs, estate, gift, and misc taxes 6 %

    Borrowing to cover deficit 6 %.

    Everyone who works pays social security taxes EXCEPT those in the cash underground economy. People who are self employed pay both halves of that tax. Corporations pass on their taxes to the consummer. It is almost impossible to buy American, so the average guy pays customs taxes. Yes MANY, MANY people pay no income tax. But just about everyone pays many of the other federal taxes.

  • To MormonDem | 7:50
    July 27, 2009 9:11 p.m.

    It's thievery when a majority involuntarily and forcibly takes money from a minority. And we're nearly there.

    25% of the population pays 86% of the Nation's taxes. Those above median income pay 97% of the Nation's taxes, leaving those below the median [$50,233] to pay a mere 3% of the Nation's taxes.

    Some 40% of the population pays NO taxes at all.

    As the Obama administration raises that non-taxed number, part of it's class envy justification scheme, at some point we'll reach a tyranny of the non-taxpayers. They won't worry if taxes on "the rich" become burdensome and confiscatory, since it doesn't affect them.

    That's called killing the golden goose. And we're nearly there.

    Inevitable result? Insurrection. Third world status. Destruction of the Nation.

    So why are you Dems pushing it?

  • Re; Mormon Dem
    July 27, 2009 9:06 p.m.

    You got your facts all wrong! Don't believe me? Call the IRS and ask them who really pays all the taxes in this country. They will confirm that 85% of the taxes are paid by the top 5% of the economic scale.

  • Dixie Dan
    July 27, 2009 7:56 p.m.

    Eight years of what history has already labeled the worse presidency in our nation's history and all the conservatives can do is cry, moan and complain. Get a life and quit listening to Fox News!

  • MormonDem
    July 27, 2009 7:50 p.m.

    So the rich so pay NO taxes? Or should they pay some? Where's the line between fair taxes and the "robbery" that conservatives are crying here? The tax rate for the richest Americans under Bush II was 36%. Under Obama it will probably near 40%

    So where does it turn into "robbery"? At precisely 38%? And pray tell how did you arrive at that magic number?

  • Another form of slavery.
    July 27, 2009 7:16 p.m.

    Being forced to work for someone else against my will= slavery, alive and well in America! I owe you lazy, irresponsible, welfare suckers nothing!!! You owe the rest of us for your free entitlement ride! No wonder our economy is in trouble!

  • Have fire insurance? No then die
    July 27, 2009 6:55 p.m.

    "Authorizing the government to take my property is still theft no matter the intentions."

    Okay. I agree. I want the money you stole from me back. Pay for your own roads, your own water, your own waste removal, your own police and fire service and any other thing that benefits your family since I don't give a damn if your family has to wallow in its own feces because it can't afford to remove the waste that comes out of it after it eats food that it couldn't have if it wasn't for roads that I pay for.

    Let me be very clear. Nothing that you use benefits me. When you call the cops to protect your retarded children it doesn't benefit me. In fact, it ensures that they will grow up to cast votes that harm my family so it would actually benefit my family if your retarded children died because your house is on fire and no one is there to protect you or them.

    When you call 9-1-1 I want to hear the words "do you have fire insurance" and if you answer no then you can just die

  • Pay for your own police then
    July 27, 2009 6:51 p.m.

    To: RE: Anonymous

    "And LIBERALS believe they can take what they want from who they want by the FORCE and POWER government, for whatever program they want."

    And CONSERVATIVES believe that they can take what they want from whomever they want by the FORCE and POWER of government and for whatever program or service that will benefit their families while complaining about any program or service which doesn't directly benefit their family because our money must be used for whatever they want but their money can't be used for something that might save my child's life.

    I must pay taxes for police to protect their little brats so they can grow up to be evil voters like their parents but if my child needs health insurance their money is off limits and my child can just die but I must pay to keep their brats alive.

    "You can call it taxes if you want, but it still taking my money from me by bully behavior."

    Everyone could afford health insurance if they didn't have to pay for police to protect your retarded children and make sure they grow up to be moron voters like their parents

  • Can they return those who died?
    July 27, 2009 6:45 p.m.

    RE:Mark B

    "If my taxes go to meet the costs of war, have I been stolen from then, or does it only count as thievery if someone's being fed, housed, clothed or healed? I'd like less war, please, and more of the other stuff."

    I sure as hell didn't want to pay for the Iraq war since it was an immoral and evil war of aggression which was started by a megalomaniac. My brother who fought in Iraq sure as hell didn't want to fight in Iraq since he had joined the military to defend his country after 9-11 and to bring those responsible to justice but instead Bush and those who voted for him betrayed our family.

    They have no problem taxing us for things that they want but they shout and scream about how unfair it is to use their MONEY for making sure that everyone is fed, housed, clothed and healed but they don't have any problem using our money to make sure that they have roads, police protection or the ability to conduct an immoral war based on their immoral ideology.

    How about a refund including those killed?

  • Bill Gronberg
    July 27, 2009 6:34 p.m.

    Shakespeare said something like this: "He who steals my purse steals trash...". Well that trash can be used to heal the flesh of human beings. Guns can only be used to smash holes through the flesh of human beings or at least to intimidate other humans. Trash needs to be recycled properly.

  • RE: Anonymous | 5:05 p.m
    July 27, 2009 6:28 p.m.

    And LIBERALS believe they can take what they want from who they want by the FORCE and POWER government, for whatever program they want.

    You can call it taxes if you want, but it still taking my money from me by bully behavior.

    A shakedown is a shakedown.

    Authorizing the government to take my property is still theft no matter the intentions.

  • To MormonDem, UltraBob
    July 27, 2009 6:14 p.m.

    It is already the case that families earning up to $37K+ don't pay a cent in income taxes. That's pretty close to the median income in this country [$50,233].

    How high do you want to take that non-taxed number?

    When most of the people in the country are unaffected by taxes, leaving the minority taxpayers to the whim of an out-of-control Congress and Executive -- to pay ALL the Nation's taxes -- that's not charity, brother, that's soak-the-rich robbery.

    And it'a also condemned in scripture. Look it up.

  • disney - a sacred cow in Utah
    July 27, 2009 6:11 p.m.

    While he taxes us to pieces
    And he robs us of our bread
    King Richard's crown keeps slippin' down
    Around that pointed head
    Ah! But while there is a merry man
    in Robin's wily pack
    We'll find a way to make him pay
    And steal our money back

    Song lyrics from Walt Disney's "Robin Hood"
    That's right - DISNEY!

  • Anonymous
    July 27, 2009 5:05 p.m.

    Conservatives believe in ilk such as Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh.
    And that is why mainstream America (the real America) has shunned the Right like the plague and will continue to do so in the coming years.

  • Roland Kayser
    July 27, 2009 4:39 p.m.

    To Clarification & @clarification: Yes, smaller words please. Eschew your customary obfuscatory prolixity and sesquipedalism when conversing with us simple minded liberals. Your orgulous grandiloquence and erudition is simply overwhelming.

  • Mark B
    July 27, 2009 4:17 p.m.

    If my taxes go to meet the costs of war, have I been stolen from then, or does it only count as thievery if someone's being fed, housed, clothed or healed? I'd like less war, please, and more of the other stuff.

  • RedShirt
    July 27, 2009 3:53 p.m.

    To "too many little guys | 12:40 p.m." and what has changed with the Obama administration, the most liberal administration in history. Lets see, their proposals get little money to the poor, while bailing out the rich bankers and car manufacturers. Obama is shipping money to the environmentalists and companies that make wind turbines like GE. Obama is sending money to big business while saying he supports the little businesses.

    What has changed with Obama? Bush expanded government at an unprecidented rate, and now Obama is doing the same thing only bigger. Bush wasted money on bailouts, Obama is wasting even more money on bailouts. For the past 2 1/2 years the Democrats have controlled congress, and continue to fund Iraq. Other than the person and the rate of spending, what has changed?

    Also, you should look up what conservatives believe in, because the conservatives yelled at Bush as much as they are now yelling at Obama.

  • Anonymous
    July 27, 2009 3:37 p.m.

    Everything is for profit to the conservatives:
    Medical care, prisons, war ...

    Profit is their "one, true god."

  • to darrel
    July 27, 2009 1:31 p.m.

    That is only for the other rich men, not conservatives.

  • Darrel
    July 27, 2009 1:09 p.m.

    "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

    Why is that?

  • @Clarification
    July 27, 2009 12:42 p.m.

    Were talking with leftwing nuts here, smaller words may be required!

  • too many little guys
    July 27, 2009 12:40 p.m.

    The last 8 years saw a monstrous conservative administration taking the money and running with it while the rest of the country was left to "eat cake."
    Now drastic measures must be taken to even the playing field.
    Way more little guys than filthy rich.

  • General Welfare
    July 27, 2009 12:23 p.m.

    The govenment should not be stealing from the rich to give to the poor. That is harmful to the rich even if it benefits the poor. The "General Welfare" clause includes the rich as well as the poor. If a government action doesn't benefit both the rich as well as the poor, the government should not be doing it.

  • Clarification
    July 27, 2009 12:18 p.m.

    There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that if a group of people get together, that it is then ok to steal. Government derives its power from the people it governs. If the people don't have the power steal to begin with, the people can not delegate that power to the governement.

    Example: I, and my neighbors have the right to protect our property. We can rightfully get together and hire a private security guard or even delegate this right to the government to protect us with Police.

    My neighbors and I do not have the right to take money from the mansion on the hill and spread it around on the other side of the tracks. Since we dont' have the right, we can not hire a robber to do it for us, nor can we delegate that power to the governement because we don't have the power to begin with.

    Do I need to use smaller words?

  • Anonymous
    July 27, 2009 12:10 p.m.

    Giving tax breaks to the rich, doing away with anti-trust laws, incentivizing companies to do business overseas ...
    You can thank your conservative Cheney/Bush administration for the theft.

  • wallofvoodoo
    July 27, 2009 10:16 a.m.

    People on welfare like GM & the banks. I think we definately need to light a fire under them. Burn baby burn.

    Typical rich, once they have to pay their way they complain the loudest.

  • Anonymous
    July 27, 2009 9:52 a.m.

    Liberals view taxes as paying their fair share.
    Conservatives view taxes as stealing from them - as money is God to these stingy types.

  • hackbart
    July 27, 2009 9:51 a.m.

    patsy, who was stolen from to pay for your education?

  • "Render unto Ceasar...
    July 27, 2009 9:45 a.m.

    ...the things which are Ceasars, and render unto God the things which are God's."

    Taxation, in other words, is not theft. The taxes you pay is money that YOU owe to the government. As such, it is the government's money, not yours. Refusing to pay your taxes is the real theft.

    Because the tax money YOU owe is the government's money, they have every right to ask for it when they need it. If you truly believe the teachings of Christ, you'll pay your taxes. Read the scriptures a little more carefully before you go spouting them.

  • Patsy
    July 27, 2009 9:10 a.m.

    Yet I'm sure you have no problem stealing from me to educate your kids. Only diference is you can see the benifit from that.

  • Ultra Bob
    July 27, 2009 9:06 a.m.

    Matt Brown, your greed will forever prevent you from knowing and understanding the teachings of Jesus and true Christians. You should use your God given brain to think about the reasons people give to charity. You might find that there are other reasons that people give to charity. Force can be as simple as the promise of your church, opinions of your fellows, and even the greed of a tax deduction.

    The reasons that our government might want your contribution might be just as good as if your church ask you to give. If someone needs your help does it matter who asks you to give it.

    The way I understand the gun thing is, you have exactly the same right, opportunity and ability to have a gun that your neighbor has. And if there was a situation where you had to have a gun and had no way to get it, the government would probably give you one. Along with a uniform.

  • MormonDem
    July 27, 2009 9:03 a.m.

    Yet another lamentation for the oppressed upper class.

    Taxes have been going down for the richest Americans on the whole for 30 years. Tax cuts for the wealthy constituted huge portions of both Reagan's and Bush's deficit spending.

    The rich reap more benefit from the things taxes make possible: an educated workforce, roads and bridges to ship goods on, police and fire to protect their (larger) assets. Of course they should pay higher taxes.

    In the last 30 years worker productivity has increased dramatically, producing incredible wealth. But wages have stayed flat. That means the wealth created by average Americans was enjoyed in wild disproportion by the wealthy.

    Enough whining about the trials and tribulations of the rich.

  • Paul
    July 27, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    We need to realize that just throwing money at poverty doesn't work. You have to require an attempt to change the status of the people requiring such help.

    Remember - if you build a man a fire, he is warm for a nigh. If you light a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.

    We need to light a fire under people who are on welfare.

  • Anonymous
    July 27, 2009 8:25 a.m.

    Are you kidding me, Matt? Taxation is not stealing, Christ acknowledged the right of the state to tax. And if someone steals from you, Christ taught to give even more, in part because he recognized that the thief likely had a need. As a society, it is perfectly logical and appropriate for the state to implement the huge task of helping care for all our citizens. Matt, do you have health care? Maybe through your employer, who subsidizes it or even provides it for free? What if you didn't have it? What if you were in need? Would you welcome the kindness of others, including society? I would hope your heart would be filled with love and charity, not accusing those without of stealing from you when our society decides to help those in need. I would hope you are not driven by selfishness.

  • Anonymous
    July 27, 2009 8:22 a.m.

    Taxes are not the same as theft.

  • Indiana
    July 27, 2009 7:12 a.m.

    To Charity 12:58 am:

    Great letter. True right down to the last period. Now, why can't we get people to understand that? Because we have, as you said, created the problem and what we are planning now is only going to perpetuate it. Keep those thoughtful comments coming, we need clear thinking people to come on here and say right things.

  • Kindly Render
    July 27, 2009 7:12 a.m.

    But taxation isn't theft, it's more like rendering unto caesar. Your neighbour isn't stealing from you when you for collective fire or police or military protection, nor for health care.

  • So Matt
    July 27, 2009 6:46 a.m.

    So matt do you hold this same clear disdain for the rich that have their $40,000 plus a year per person Cadillac plans subsidized by your taxes or do you reserve this venom for only the poor? stop subsidizing the rich before you take on killing the poor and I might take you more serious.

  • Today's hilarious entry....
    July 27, 2009 5:06 a.m.

    But it makes ZERO sense.

  • Charity
    July 27, 2009 12:58 a.m.

    Welfare entitlements do not solve poverty, they increase it. In the last 50 years the government has spent some 40 trillion dollars on welfare entitlements and we have an ever increasing welfare class of people in America. Self reliance, self control, hard work, personal responsibility and better personal choices are the only things that lift people out of poverty, not welfare checks! Americans are the most generous people on the planet and charity isn't our problem. The problem is we try to fix the symptoms not the disease! According to studies done, single mothers are the largest class of people in America who live below the poverty line. Want to solve poverty? Live the law of chastity and the word of wisdom is an excellent start!