A sad day for Utah

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  • CJ3
    July 5, 2009 1:41 p.m.

    SB 81 opens a dangerous door for any overzealous officer to detain anyone based on their color, fundamentally focusing on an ethnicity, therefore making it state sponsored racism.

    What happens to the business that contributes to the local economy and employs "native" residents, that loses that one big sink-or-swim job, in this tough economy, because the Latino owner was late for being held so someone could ensure that his "papers are in order?"

  • Mike B.
    July 5, 2009 3:58 a.m.

    I don't have a problem with the immigrants coming to this country for a better life. I have a problem when they don't do it legally, use false I.D.'s purchase vehicles but do not get it registered in their names and don't get insurance. I had two vehicles destroyed by a drunken illegal who had no license, no registration, no insurance and after destroying my vehicles and tearing up my lawn, tried to run away and leave his vehicle in my yard smashed into my vehicles. We had to pay for the vehicle repairs, we had to pay off the difference on the car that the insurance we had didn't cover and he got arrested and then sent back to Mexico only to return several weeks later and pick up where he left off. I know this because I saw him in the Mall in our neighborhood less than a month after he was sent packing. They are not law-abiding citizens, because they are not citizens and they broke the law to get here. Do it right, obey the laws and I am all for you. Otherwise, stay home.

  • Utahn
    July 2, 2009 4:01 p.m.

    What a bunch of BS. The DesNews says, "an immigration bill that promises to harm everyone in the state". I am not an illegal immigrant nor are any of my family members, nor any of my friends. My children attend a charter school which focuses on Spainish. All of those teachers are here legally. I don't think I will be harmed one bit. But my taxes will stop supporting free lunch for kids who should not be here. Hopefully my medical insurance will go down because the hospitals don't have to cover so many uninsured illegals. Some gang violence will decrease if we can get the mexican drug gangs out of Utah. I know these are many loftly goals, but having know many hispanics over the years and working with many, I love SB81

  • Jeremy
    July 2, 2009 2:11 p.m.

    One of the most amusing arguments I read in the comments is that deporting illegal aliens would be detrimental to our society since they perform the jobs that Americans refuse to do.

    Seriously? Since when did Americans become too good for manual labor? Didn't Americans make this country what it is today by means of manual labor? I'm not too good to clean hotels or wash dishes if that means feeding my family or not, nor do I think any American with any sense of worth would think otherwise.

    Although the current Administration would have you believe that the average American cannot succeed on his own, I submit that the real-American spirit is still alive and well with the silent majority, i.e., those who still believe in hard work and moral virtue.

  • Zach
    July 2, 2009 11:58 a.m.

    Why is our legislature even wasting time trying to do anything about illegal immigration. Don't they realize that we're still in the middle of a huge economic slump with some projections saying we're gonna lose over 15,000 jobs in the next year. Currently the aggregate migration is actually out of the US, rather than in, because people are finding jobs easier in Mexico than here in the US. The state legislature should focus on what's pertinent - stimulating the economy - rather than addressing an issue that's essentially resolving itself at the moment. The state legislature is a bunch of uncaring fiscal tight-wads, using the emotionally charged issue of immigration to distract people as they launch massive budget cuts on public services - pulling money and jobs out of the economy and making life even harder for those suffering under difficult economic conditions.

  • lol
    July 2, 2009 8:37 a.m.

    12:07 p.m. July 1, 2009

  • Great Editorial!
    July 1, 2009 8:42 p.m.

    I'm glad there's some sanity and clear thinking left in this state. I've been thinking these same things for a long time. SB81 needs to go and we need to get a real comprehensive plan in place.

  • John A.
    July 1, 2009 8:38 p.m.

    What a wonderful day for Utah!

  • DesNews Board - Shallow Thinkers
    July 1, 2009 8:13 p.m.

    The Deseret News editorial board should be embarassed by its shallow thinking. This editorial doesn't even begin to address the negative effects on our society (e.g., including education, healthcare, many forms of welfare transfer payments) and on our economy (depressing wages for the illegal benefit of both small and large businesses) that is caused by illegal immigration.
    The State legislators, through SB 81, have begun to live by their sworn duty to act on behalf of the citizens of this state.
    The DesNews needs to address the facts regarding the overwhelming negative net detriment to our citizens that results from illegal immigration -- and not cherry pick the laws that it believes that should/should not be enforced based on its view of 'compassion' that it believes should be granted to individuals that flagrantly violate the law.

  • Silva
    July 1, 2009 7:06 p.m.

    Illegal entry into this country is punishable by fines and 6 months in jail. Lying to obtain work-felony, ss number-felony, it gets worse as more lies violate more laws.

    Federal immigration laws have always been enforced by all law officers, just like Federal drug laws. The ability to cross train officers existed since 1996.

    Breaking any law pulls families apart.

    People here illegally are afraid to talk. Enforcing the law will not change that one way or the other.

    E-verify forms take a few minutes to fill out, prevent identity theft and abuse of illegals by some Utah businesses. It protects the citizen and the illegal.

    Flooding the work market will cheap labor by more permits harms Americans ability to make a livable wage. With close to 10% of Americas population out of work this is a slap in American workers face.

    Improve the economy by allowing illegal business. Americans will get goods cheaper and let business know how it feels to be treated like a commodity to be bought and sold.

  • how low can you go?
    July 1, 2009 5:32 p.m.

    Just when you think Utah couldn't get any lower on the evolutionary scale - something like this manifests itself.

  • 2009 Legislative Session
    July 1, 2009 4:49 p.m.

    SB-81 was actually passed by the 2008 Utah Legislature. They delayed its implementation until the 2009 Legislature in order to hold hearings around the state. They wanted citizen input other than just those lobbying at the capitol. Hearings were held at the Capitol, Logan, Park City Richfield, and St George. For those that attended you heard alot of testimony from those opposing illegal immigration in Utah.

    On the other hand there were groups in opposition to SB-81. These were the ethnic groups, Catholic Church, The SL Chamber of Commerce Rep Stephen Clark, and the Sutherland Institute.

    When those in opposition to SB-81 found themselves overwhelmed by citizens in support of SB-81 they were forced to come up with this hair brained scheme. "A system by which these workers could enter and leave the state legally. We are astounded that all sides in this debate cannot see the wisdom of a system that would control and monitor the influx of workers across the border." This was the reason for the passage of SCR-1 which was pushed by those supporting illegal immigration as Utah's own "guest worker program," and passed as a sop to them.

  • Great day
    July 1, 2009 4:44 p.m.

    That said, Americans who want this country to go back to enforcing our immigration laws are not without compassion.

    I am very surprised our compassionate Church leaders, Organizations and Legislature did not insist on helping these people to relocate. This would be the compassionate thing to do.

    We cannot put this burden on the citizens of this country. They should never of had to pay with reduced wages and providing social services and schools in the first place for non citizens, when our own poor, disabled and elderly are having their meager benefits cut.

    Instead those who benefited should pay, it's only fair. A one time severance pay per worker of $1,000 should do. This will help them pay for gas and to buy food until they can find work elsewhere. If you are leaving the state, ask your employer. If he refuses threaten to tell authorities that he hired people illegally and may also be guilty of tax fraud. What are they going to do? Deport you? If your leaving already so what?

  • Stewart
    July 1, 2009 4:24 p.m.

    Either the DesNews editorial writer either hasn't read SB-81 or has intentionally misrepresented it. Due to limited space here are three:

    1. "The law places extra burdens on business owners, requiring them to use an E-verify system for which many of them lack training." The truth is, SB-81 applies only to companies contracted on taxpayer projects. Also E-Verify may take 5 minutes of training for the person in charge of entering the information, if he/she is of average intelligence, or 10 minutes for those more on the stupid side.

    2. "Elsewhere, this system has been shown to reject legal residents by mistake." The truth is E-Verify has been proved 99.6 percent accurate, and those four tenths of one percent that are rejected have 10 days to correct the information with Social Security.

    3. A final misrepresentation (lie), "The result will be yet another drag on a struggling economy." Most thinking, and informed people should be able to figure this one out on their own. Those who base their position on empathy and ethnic issues rather than logic probably won't see this as false.

  • adam
    July 1, 2009 4:06 p.m.

    It would be so nice if Utah could go away.

  • re: careful
    July 1, 2009 3:51 p.m.

    Careful, Your Image Is Showing states "Although I don't live in Utah, I feel compelled to warn Utahns their image is taking a severe beating on this issues"


    Maybe we should strive for the image of bankrupt California or extreme left-wing Massachusetts, or vigilante Texas - or not.

    With stereotypes: arrogance and condescention from "careful" is showing.

  • xto
    July 1, 2009 3:44 p.m.

    Usually is easy just 2 say what we "think" is "true" about our reality but as usually we don't know 4 sure the "whole truth" about why illegal people come 2 this country and how they live every day here. In my job I have 2 deal with all kind of people and I have 2 corroborate the way they live and try 2 dig very inside of peoples feelings, thinking and reactions. As far as I can understand and the logic takes me I can only assure that we as Americans have created this immigration issue as we have failed 2 help 2 create better laws that actually can work it out the problems in a better way. The state of the Law should always exists but also we have 2 show compassion 2 those who only crime has been 2 come here looking 4 a better life. As I said before, we really need 2 know why people chose to come here and leave everything behind because their country is not the same as our country in so many ways; probably I would do the same as them just 2 survive, for my family.

  • Captain Kirk
    July 1, 2009 3:41 p.m.

    @ Utah Bob | 7:55 a.m. July 1, 2009
    Most conservatives are FOR enforcing immigration laws.

    @ ALL:
    How about we just streamline the immigration process so these people can enter legally. Make it quick and simple and cheap.

  • black saint
    July 1, 2009 3:36 p.m.

    Recent statements in Mexico from both President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary something needs to be done. "Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the deaths of police officers, soldiers, and civilians," she said.

    But no mention, concern or care that their refusal to stop the Massive Invasion of Illegal Aliens pouring across our borders or enforce our immigration laws that causes an estimated 25 Americans deaths per day and 10,s of thousands victims of Assault, Robberies, Rapes, Identify thief, and other assorted crimes committed by the invading horde of Illegal Aliens from Mexico on American citizens each year!

    It is a telling indictment & shows their Empathy & Compassion of our Politicians & their priorities when they express more concern over Mexicans mostly connected to the Drug trade than the murders, havoc & crimes of Illegal Aliens against American Citizens!

  • Ben F.
    July 1, 2009 3:36 p.m.

    What a WONDERFUL day!! Utahns have been waiting for this law to take effect for over a year. The time has come and this is only the beginning. S.B. 81 is the first small step we will take to control our borders. There will be plenty more coming..

  • wrz
    July 1, 2009 3:35 p.m.

    To Careful, Your Image Is Showing @9:42 a.m. --

    The (Utah) ensign of hope is still there. Utah is a state of laws. And laws are meant to be obeyed. I think the (Utah) Mormon creed has something to say about that... "...honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law."

  • black saint
    July 1, 2009 3:31 p.m.

    This refusal to abide by our Constitution or enforce our Immigration Laws should be classified as Treason of the most foul kind, & as grounds for impeachment & trials for Treason!

    Not only have they allowed the invasion, they force American tax payers to pay Billions on Billions of dollars to provide Welfare, Prison cells, Educate the invaders numerous children, and free medical care, at the same time the invading horde break numerous laws and massive document fraud, & are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture and standard of living while Robbing, Raping, Killing & Assaulting American Citizens at an rate the terrorist can only dream about.

  • black saint
    July 1, 2009 3:30 p.m.

    Our government fails the most basic and primary task & duty of government, to protect this Nation and its Citizens from invasion and enforce its laws.

    They refuse to abide by our Constitution, refuse to enforce our Immigration Laws and refuse to honor their Oath of Office!

    Our Government, past & present, Republican & Democrat, have allowed the invasion of 20 to 30 million criminals and uneducated peons which is the largest invasion of any Nation, at any time, by any means & in direct violation of Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution.

  • Mike Richards
    July 1, 2009 3:23 p.m.

    There is an order in everything. In what order should mercy be offered? Can mercy be offered in lieu of obedience to law? Does mercy come before the gavel is lowered and justice is served?

    Obedience to law must come before mercy can be offered and the verdict of justice must wait until mercy has had a chance to be offered and accepted on terms fair to all.

    That concept is well understood. It is taught by Christian churches all over the world.

    As a State and as a Nation, mercy can be offered to illegal immigrants after they have done everything possible to comply with the law. Currently the law requires that they apply for and receive permission before entering our country. That is the law. To disregard the law and allow all to mock that law is wrong. To offer mercy to all without requiring compliance to that law is wrong. Sure, non-compliance allows people to remain here, but it requires no effort from them for the benefits that they will receive.

    Something for nothing is never a good policy.

    Show mercy to those who first obey the law.

  • A. Nony Mouse
    July 1, 2009 2:31 p.m.

    So what you're saying is that Utah and the Mormon church refuses to follow the 12th Article of Faith in this matter? Shame on you!

  • Dumb Editorial
    July 1, 2009 2:18 p.m.

    Why not use the heading "If you want a better life, steal from another". That about sums up this article. I'm shocked the Mormon church doesn't value honesty anymore.

  • e pluribus unum
    July 1, 2009 2:18 p.m.

    "Out of many, one" - not multiple, mutually exclusive cultures, which is what most Mexicans want in America, as evidenced by their utter lack of desire to learn the language and determination to not assimilate.

    Who says, with authority, that the Native Indians were the "original owners" of the land? There was no single organized country, government, or set of laws.

  • Following your logic,
    July 1, 2009 2:03 p.m.

    . . . the next time your bank is robbed and you call 911, I'm sure you'll be happy to be redirected to the FBI, who'll place you on their waiting list for enforcement. After all, bank robbery is a FEDERAL crime.

    Or, when your daughter is kidnapped. Or when someone shoots at you with an automatic weapon. Or when someone dumps toxic chemicals in your backyard, shoots the golden eagle perched on your power line, assaults you on the former reservation in Kanosh, or digs up the antiquities under your house.

    These are all violations of FEDERAL laws, making them FEDERAL matters. So, I'm sure you'll understand when we refer you, as victim, to the federal authorities.

    Ummmmm, your disingenuousness is showing.

  • Yes, but...
    July 1, 2009 1:47 p.m.

    Darrel you stated in your comment at 12:01 "I believe we need to make it easier for immigrants to come over, and that would solve the "illegal" problem. "

    You're right, but then without illegal immigrants these whiners would just move on to yet another issue where they could complain and moan without ever taking into account facts.

    I say we let them complain bitterly about Mexicans taking over the United States. Its just so entertaining.

  • what a bunch of lies
    July 1, 2009 1:40 p.m.

    What a bunch of lies. For example:

    "It promises to pull apart families of undocumented workers..." This is a lie. The anchor babies are perfectly free to accompany their deported parents back to Mexico, where they may remain together as families. No family need be torn apart.

    "... seeking a better life and who contribute to the tax base." This is a double-lie, at least. Sure they contribute to the tax base - being payed in cash under the table as they typically are. And what about their illegitimate DRAIN on the tax base?? And don't forget the billions they send down to Mexico instead of putting into our economy.

  • To Doggie
    July 1, 2009 1:29 p.m.

    It's "milquetoast", not "milk toast", after Caspar Milquetoast, a character in The Timid Soul, comic strip by H. T. Webster (1885—1952), American cartoonist.
    Mike in Sandy

  • to darrel
    July 1, 2009 12:56 p.m.

    I think you misunderstood me. I am not against LEGAL immigration. I am against turning a blind and pitiful eye from the millions of illegal immigrants who are sucking this country dry. I do not believe for one milli-second that ALL of these illegals actually took the time to legally enter this country. I believe the vast majority knowingly and intentionally illegally entered this country knowing full well that all the bleeding hearts would pity them and their anchor babies and let them stay. The vast majority of these people have NO INTENTION of becoming legal. Why should they? They have all the benefits of living here without any of the responsible. They have even discovered that most Americans will step aside and agree to classrooms full on spanish speaking children with parents who don't even try to assimilate. Why pay taxes? Why pay for insurance? The vast majority intend to sit right where they are until we all cave in and send them their legal status in the mail.

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2009 12:40 p.m.

    "America is a good and wonderful place, in part because we have order. That order is sustained by law. Those that obey those laws live freely within an ordered society."

    Have you driven the freeways and seen how Utahans comply to the law? Notice any shortage of Utahans in Wyoming buying fireworks that they will bring into Utah?

    Try to find a road sign without bullet holes in it. We had a Utah lawmaker defy the law near Kanab riding his ATV in a posted area. Than, there's Blanding.

    I've never met an American who didn't break some law.

    Utahan are so self righteous.

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2009 12:30 p.m.

    What Rosa Parks did was not illegal. Constitutionally she had that right. On the other hand, our Constitution protects citizens against illegal immigration. Simply enforce the law. Allow those who want to immigrate here do it legally, just like the european side of my family tree did. If we need workers here, let's get a guest worker bill passed and allow those who are willing to live by the US Constitution become citizens.

  • karma
    July 1, 2009 12:20 p.m.

    Congratulations Utah!
    You've just cruised from reddest state in America to most fascist state in America.
    Must make you feel proud.

    And now follows the law of karma.

  • Brittanicus
    July 1, 2009 12:10 p.m.

    Every American should demand that every employer should implement the E-Verify illegal worker extraction mechanism from the workplace. They should then display the E-Verify notice, as does the El Pollo Loca franchises. All those businesses that fail to place this notice, where the public audience cannot see it--Should be boycotted ans black listed?

  • Darrel
    July 1, 2009 12:07 p.m.

    @ to darrel

    I think you misunderstood me. The reservations are the way they are because of what we have done and are still doing to the Native Americans. My point was to argue that really we have no moral leg to stand on due to what we have done the original "owners" of this land.
    I think it would be a far better solution to make it easier to come here legally and let the various cultures intermingle. America has thrived on that concept for nearly 400 years already, and that is one of the many reasons I am proud to be an American.

  • Darrel
    July 1, 2009 12:01 p.m.

    @flawed logic

    Yes you can be moral and illegal! An old example, but it fits, the Compromise of 1850. It admitted California in as a free state, but required all escaped slaves be returned to their owners. Let's say I found an escaped slave, would I be moral to take a stand against slavery and and not return the slave? As stated earlier, civil disobedience.

    When Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus...was that immoral?

    Your logic assumes all laws are moral. I am in no means advocating law breaking. I too believe in honoring and sustaining the law, but I also believe laws need to be moreal and just.

    It was easier for me to get a secret clearance in the military then for my wife to come here legally. There is something wrong with that.

    I believe we need to make it easier for immigrants to come over, and that would solve the "illegal" problem.

  • John C
    July 1, 2009 11:49 a.m.

    Austraila had the same problem with the people from the pacific rim immigrating illegally.
    Solution: All illegals had to register within a certain time frame and apply for citizen ship.
    Back ground check required.
    Learn english
    You have to find a sponsor.
    Have a job.
    Join the service to the country.
    Enrolled in school.
    Along with other requirements.
    Each person was only allowed their wife and children, no moms, pops, aunts, uncles, distant cousin,etc.
    IF you are picked up after the expiration period and are not registered you will be DEPORTED.Regardless of any children, illness, aunts in the basement, no exceptions.
    Self screening process, as those that were picked up after the deadline were mostly those foreign authorities were looking for.
    We need something similar to make sure that all our legal citizens are protected.
    Not perfect but most laws have some flaws.
    Austraila has a form of ACLU, but it's a pay to play process, so no free ride like they get here.

  • Chuck
    July 1, 2009 11:46 a.m.

    Excellent editorial that took courage. It was right on!

  • to darrel
    July 1, 2009 11:30 a.m.

    re: @dave swenson
    Really? You really want to see what happens when we are taken over? Go visit Arizona, California, and Texas. Go visit a reservation while you're at it and get back to us on whether or not this is what you want for your children.

    We have a moral obligation to preserve the laws of this country as it stands now. These illegals are coming up here because they visited a reservation and want that?
    No, they want the American dream, the one our grandparents worked for. My grandparents immigrated LEGALLY. It was hard, they were poor,the learned english and they were legal. Thank you Grandma and Grandpa for making sure your children and grandchildren could hold their heads up and be proud of who we are. Thank you for making sure we don't have to live in fear of being deported back to a country I have never seen.

  • black-eye
    July 1, 2009 11:21 a.m.

    Yet another black mark against the reddest state in America.
    Their definition of "obedience" (as Michael Richards puts it) is just in-your-face conformity based on racism and intolerance.

  • Flawed logic.....
    July 1, 2009 11:16 a.m.

    Dave Swenson.....

    Your heart is good, but your logic is flawed. You state that illegal immigration is illegal but not immoral. Is is possible to be moral and illegal? The truth is that while some of the illegal immigrants motives may be pure and for the betterment of their family, they cannot morally achieve this while doing it illegally. How can you possibly refute this? If your thinking about it in an "eternally right or wrong" perspective, even the Mormons agree to obey the laws of the land. If you're here illegally how can you morally meet those criteria? Help me understand.

  • What law IS compassionate
    July 1, 2009 11:10 a.m.

    All laws can be seen as harsh and not compassionate. Especially by those who don't want to obay them.

    I'm all for personal compassion, but not those responsible to enforce the law. Since when are laws supposed to be compassionate?

    Laws have to be a little restrictive and harsh to have any affect.

    I think speeding laws arn't compassionate! Don't they know I only speed I'm late for something? Why such harsh laws?

  • Obey the law
    July 1, 2009 10:50 a.m.

    When you break the law you must live with the consequences. If I break the law I will go to prison, which will break up my family. Illegal immigrants are breaking US immigration law-they know the risks when they enter the US illegally.

  • Darrel
    July 1, 2009 10:47 a.m.

    @ to Dave Swenson,

    I agree with you what you said, I am just trying to figure out what side of the fence you are on...

    Are you trying to say that we have no moral leg to stand on in trying to stop this "hispanic invasion" because they are doing the same thing we did? If so, bravo, I agree. Let social natural selection play its role.

    If you are saying we have to stop from happening to us what we caused the Native Americans as you describe...whatever happened to the golden rule?

  • Where are the real Utahns?
    July 1, 2009 10:41 a.m.

    @Some Things to Consider | 6:28 a.m.: I’m with you; You are right!

  • C.W.
    July 1, 2009 10:38 a.m.

    Why don't all the folks who WANT the illegals here simply go down to the Mexican consulate and offer to "sponsor" an immigrant. That way YOU will be on the hook for them obtaining a job, finding a place to live, (it can't be in a single family house with 6 other families) when they need medical care, YOU'LL be the one to arrange payments. If they need monetary help (WIC, food stamps, etc)YOU'LL BE THE ONE to make sure that happens, not all the rest of us! Oh, and YOU'LL be the one to make sure they follow through on all the paperwork to become citizens and learn English along the way. If they get arrested they'll call YOU.

    If you're willing to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their welfare while they're here on the "path to citizenship" - GO FOR IT! - How about just leaving the rest of us out of it?

  • to Dave Swenson
    July 1, 2009 10:20 a.m.

    Oh please. "We" I am assuming you mean the European settlers, we did not "illegally immigrate" to this new land. We TOOK it. We moved here in droves and made the Native Americans abide by our rules. We made them speak our language, walk around our towns, live our way. When they got to be a problem, because well, they actually had the nerve to fight for their land, we rounded them up and either slaughtered them or put them on reservations. We took everything from them and left them nothing. We even took advantage of the Natives who were our "friends". How did this "illegal immigration" work out for the Native Americans? I guess that's all okay though because we were only looking for prosperity and happiness.

  • Brittanicus
    July 1, 2009 10:17 a.m.

    In border states the occupancy of foreign nationals has become so prevalent, that I'm surprised to see the United States flag flying above schools, hospitals, government buildings and prison compounds. At the speed of this occupation of illegal aliens and their families, California, Texas and Arizona will have urban sprawl even into the deserts. California--THE SANCTUARY STATE fell foul to illegal immigration, many the years back and has been suffering under the Liberal Sacramento assembly pandering to them ever since.

    Now they are hurting with a $24.billion dollar budget, that according to City Manager 11 billion can be directly attributed to the the illegal immigrant invasion. For more factual data, not propaganda or naked lies go to NUMBERSUSA JUDICIALWATCH to stop 2nd AMNESTY? STOP FUNDING TO SANCTUARY STATES! NO MORE RAISED TAXES TO PAY ILLEGAL ALIENS & FAMILIES! IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE NOT BROKEN---JUST NOT ENFORCED! CALL YOUR SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE NOW.

  • Wrex
    July 1, 2009 10:14 a.m.

    I liked this editorial. It's nice to agree with the Deseret News once in a while, even if it is about once every seven years! :)

  • to sam the ham
    July 1, 2009 10:10 a.m.

    I believe the problem is much greater than jaywalking. Jaywalking doesn't cost taxpayers millions of dollars. People who choose to remain in this country illegally in many cases do not exist. Very often, they do not have insurance, so if they run into your car, guess what? You pay! They do not pay taxes, as they do NOT EXIST. They are here taking up space, using OUR services, and in many cases not paying their fair share. Has your child been educated in a non-english speaking classroom yet? Been to an ER where entire illegal families are in there with toys and picnic lunches because this is their doctor's office? I have, it's a joke. Go spend some quality time in any city where the illegals have taken over. They need to go back and if they so choose to become legal they can go through the motions. Impatience in the process is not an excuse. I would not dream of immigrating to Mexico or Canada without going through the legal process. Stop singing kumbaya and look at it realistically.

  • RedShirt
    July 1, 2009 10:08 a.m.

    To "Utah Bob | 7:55 a.m." I am a conservative, and I can't think of any reason to keep illegals here. I actually like that Obama has realized that the boarder is a problem and has asked for volunteers from the National Guard to go and help patrol it and keep the illegals out. (Granted he is doing it under the guise of the Drug wars going on in Mexico)

    I do find it ironic that the Minute Men (citizen volunteers) were called racists for doing the very thing that Obama has now proposed.

    To "Tom | 8:14 a.m." the Washington Post has an article titled "Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied" where they reported on a study. "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.

  • Bear Rug
    July 1, 2009 10:08 a.m.

    Ok, . . . . . then what do we do? Illegal immigration is costing the tax payer a lot of money. Some of those that come here ARE, in fact, criminals. I don't care if they come here legally. Those who OBEY the laws of our country, usually end-up making a contribution to our society. Too many of those that are here illegally make NO contribution. In fact, they largely take without ever giving back. That kinda ruins the legacy that our forefathers left us. My family has served in almost every war since WWI. They have also been legislators, teachers, and taxpayers. They've given back to the country that provided so much for them. I think that all of those immigrating to the U.S. should be encouraged to learn that principle. Those legal immigrants DO!

  • Brittanicus
    July 1, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    After November 6, 1986 the Immigration Reform and Control Act required employers to hire only American citizens and permanent residents authorized to work in the United States. Employers must verify eligibility of any persons hired by completing an Employment Eligibility Verification form. The business is required to examine the documentation provided by the individual that establishes his or her identity and employment eligibility, to ensure that the documents appear to be genuine and relate to that individual. The employer must retain the verification form for three years after the person is hired or one year after the employee leaves the job. In my view all Washington has to do contribute some additional amendments to this law. As a starter one amendment would be E-Verify, as a permanent web based application that ensnares illegal workers? It works remarkably well so now--THE PEOPLE--have an opposition of open border, free traders and corporate organizations.

  • Illegal is Illegal
    July 1, 2009 9:57 a.m.

    I am sorry that this may be difficult for some people to face, but these ILLEGAL immigrants made that chose when they broke the law. Simply by virtue of entering this country illegally and continuing to ignore the immigration LAWS, these people are criminals. I don't care if they are "nice". I would fully expect to be booted out of any foreign country and in some imprisoned whether I had an "anchor baby" or not. Only in America can you break the law, and use your child to get out of it. Look at California and Arizona. These wannabes will soon be flying their Mexican flags and expecting YOU to bend to meet them. Send 'em back. All of them. No paper, no passport, no service.

  • Dave Swenson
    July 1, 2009 9:55 a.m.

    Take a look in the mirror. If you don’t see a Native American looking back at you, it means that you or your forbears emigrated here sometime in the last 500 years. America’s greatness did not come about because we shut the door to immigrants since becoming a nation. Our future is not assured by closing our borders to those who desire economic and political freedom. Immigration law, currently constituted, criminalizes the great majority of people who come here hoping for a better life. The act of crossing a national border is not, in and of itself, immoral. Those who illegally enter our country are subject to the penalty of law for doing so. Since crossing the border is not an immoral act, immigration laws should be changed to facilitate a greater number of those looking to create a better life for themselves and their families. Law enforcement, in Utah and elsewhere, should concentrate on behaviors which are both immoral and illegal, such as murder, theft, and trafficking in human beings. Otherwise, we should turn matters concerning immigration over to Native Americans, and let them decide who stays and who is deported.

  • Tom
    July 1, 2009 9:54 a.m.

    I appreciate the civil dialogue. I am sure that many get paid under the table, but there are good studies that show around 7,000,000 illegal's have been issued government tax numbers that allow them to pay taxes legally. I am unsure of the present law. I don't know if they can get those numbers since 9/11 or not. The undocumented individuals I know have them. There is also good evidence that they pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. There are bad in any group, but the truth is that the vast majority of undocumented people are good hard working individuals. If you would like me to post some leads to that information could do that.

  • Careful, Your Image Is Showing
    July 1, 2009 9:42 a.m.

    Although I don't live in Utah, I feel compelled to warn Utahns their image is taking a severe beating on this issues.

    Instead of coming across as an ensign of hope, prosperity and charity for all the world, citizens of Utah are coming across as a uninformed, self centered, and an unsympathetic lot.

    Is that the intent?

  • Sam the Ham
    July 1, 2009 9:41 a.m.

    @Some Things to Consider 6:28 a.m.: "The argument is made that these people are criminals, but the law against being undocumented isn't a criminal law, any more than jaywalking."

    What's illegal is being in this country without permission. The jaywalker is fined for his conduct and if he continues to commit the crime he is fined again. Illegal immigrants should likewise be fined each day they violate the law. Fifty bucks a day should suffice for starters.

  • All Knowing
    July 1, 2009 9:30 a.m.

    This is the most asinine article I've read in a long time.

    This is a state law. Officers who refuse to enforce the law need to be arrested, fined, or sent packing.

    Anyone who thinks using E-Verify requires a huge amount of training is grasping at proverbial straws. All it takes is a few key strokes on a computer which any third grader could quickly pick up. And the accuracy is somewhere around 99 percent. Discrepancies are resolved in minutes.

    There already exists a program to become a US citizen for those who desire it... fill out the paperwork and get in line.

    There already exists programs for foreigners to legally come here to work, attend school, etc. The problem is, many become illegal when they refuse to leave when their visa expires. they then become undocumented illegal immigrants.

  • forget Rule of Law??
    July 1, 2009 9:29 a.m.

    "Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Laws against giving protection to Jews so they couldn't be taken to the ovens."

    So what are you implying, sir? We should have anarchy, instead? No Rule of Law?? Let them ALL come in?? Or are you implying that legal, orderly immigration in particular is bad law, tantamount to sticking Jews in ovens??

  • BH
    July 1, 2009 9:25 a.m.

    Great comment John C. I couldn't agree more.

  • John C
    July 1, 2009 9:03 a.m.

    Get a traffic ticket in say..Sandy, fail to follow the rules posted on the ticket.
    Don't show up in court,a bench warrant will be issued for your failure to comply with the LAW.
    Get stopped anywhere in S L County, the police run your license, show an outstanding bench warrant and you are arrested and sent to jail until you comply with the LAW.
    If you are here illegaly, you are guilty of breaking the LAW, not complicated at all.

  • @Tom
    July 1, 2009 8:40 a.m.

    Obviously your talking "to people in charge" is definitive.

    Have you ever, ever filled out a Medicaid application? It is mentioned several times in the form that legal residency is NOT a requirement for receiving aid from this program.

    I don't know where the vaunted Sutherland Institute gets its numbers. After spending the last couple of years working in the county jail as a volunteer, there are a whole heck of a lot more that are there illegally than less than 5%. And talking to them (even though several speak only Spanish... even after living here for many years), most of the work that they have been doing is paid for by cash! That avoids taxes. Tom, are you so naive to believe "people in charge"?

    This whole thing is a crock... but the Stupid Bill 81 won't help it.

  • Re: Tom @ 8:14
    July 1, 2009 8:33 a.m.


    I appreciate your response. However, I work in the construction industry and witness first hand how those illegals are paid. Under-the-table paychecks cannot be taxed. How could they possibly do it? Also, for those illegals who say they are paying it, which social security number are they using? We ALL pay taxes when we purchase food or services, however, how can an illegal legally pay taxes? Hopefully someone can educate me on that process because I don't understand how it can work. Also, the truth is that while they may not be ELIGIBLE for welfare, their families can still get food stamps through WIC and other means because we won't let their children go without.

  • Grover
    July 1, 2009 8:25 a.m.

    "Annex Mexico"! That statement is the first thing I have ever read from Lionheart that I agree with. Further we need to bring home the troops from over there and send them south until they reach Panama. Then we would finally have a border we could defend. Also, I think that all of the new property should be made part of Utah county so that the commissioners could straighten things out down there.

  • Tom
    July 1, 2009 8:14 a.m.


    I work in a west side hospital where a large amount of our clientele are hispanic and I have talked to people in charge about what you say and have found it not to be true. The majority of them do pay taxes and do so legally though They are not eligible for welfare or other entitlements accept a few emergence service and education for their children.

  • SLC gal
    July 1, 2009 8:13 a.m.

    What they don't realize is the burdens Illegals do place on society far outweights the burden expecting them to be fairly, and legally in this country would be.

  • Ultra Bob
    July 1, 2009 8:10 a.m.

    If we allow foreign workers to come at will, should we also allow foreign businesses of come at will. Shops, stores, factories, plumbers, banks, etc.

    If America is to become (or remain) a fair place to live and have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there must be balance in the forces that control our lives. And the biggest forces that control our lives is business.

  • Paul
    July 1, 2009 8:00 a.m.

    The only notorious part of SB81 is how notoriously weak a bill it is. The eVerify provision should apply to all employers in Utah and there should be a large fine if any employer hires an illegal without using that process. I think the only compassion we're seeing in this paper is compassion for the Chamber of Commerce and the employers who may actually have to pay legal wages.

  • re WAKE UP!!!!! | 7:21 a.m. Jul
    July 1, 2009 7:58 a.m.

    I agree let them do it legally, but how are they to do it legally unless comprehensive immigration reform is passed by the congress?

  • Utah Bob
    July 1, 2009 7:55 a.m.

    Conservatives will quote you a thousand reasons for allowing illegal immigrants to come and live in the United States and all of them will be false, phony and lies. The real truth for allowing the illegal immigration is to provide cheap labor to business.

    When something threatens that goal, it is considered a sad day. A sad day for business.

    However a sad day for Utah businesses with regard to the cheap labor market, is a most happy day for Utah workers.

  • Disobedience to unjust laws
    July 1, 2009 7:55 a.m.

    ... is moral.

    For a refresher course, see "Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau.

  • Tom
    July 1, 2009 7:51 a.m.

    This is a sad day for Utah. We will see the consequences of our choices over time and see that this law will do more harm than good. I am amazed by people's unwillingness to see things as they really are. The editorial say's "It turns anyone with brown skin into a suspect and is sure to breed racism." The breading of racism has already increased greatly in this state because of people holding to views about this law that do not square with reality.

  • Lionheart
    July 1, 2009 7:37 a.m.

    Let's just annex Mexico. It is a fabulously rich country and we are paying the price for its social problems and foolish system. At least we should send the Mexican oligarchs a bill.

  • Just Wondering
    July 1, 2009 7:35 a.m.

    People who argue against comprehensive immigration reform, say making the undocumented pay a fine is amnesty, if they are allowed to stay in the country.

    Well is it amnesty too if when anyone gets a speeding ticket they also get a fine, but are allowed to continue on with their journey and not sent back to where they started?

  • WAKE UP!!!!!
    July 1, 2009 7:21 a.m.

    I get tired of everyone who takes the illegal immigrants side and says, "They aren't doing anything worse than jaywalking...." What they won't accept is that these illegal immigrants FAMILIES are bleeding the medical field dry. They go to hospitals and can't be refused services just because they are illegal. So THAT cost is passed off to you and I. They don't pay taxes, so that money is lost and not recovered. Remind me how that relates to jaywalking or speeding? I sympathize with their story that they're trying to find a better life for their families but there is a LEGAL way to do that. My mom came here from Sweden years ago LEGALLY. She didn't complain that the country didn't speak Swedish to accomodate her. We now, because of the illegal immigrants, are forced to have Spanish speaking options for everything and THAT comes at a cost to the legal taxpayers. It's okay to feel sorry for these illegal immigrants plights, but our sorrow and pity doesn't need to go any further than that. Become citizens LEGALLY. That's the law!

  • re Mike Richards | 5:55 a.m. Ju
    July 1, 2009 6:56 a.m.

    Why would obedience to law cause sadness?

    Go take a class in American and world history, and when you are finished come back and comment in this forum.

    Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Laws against giving protection to Jews so they couldn't be taken to the ovens.

    You come across as someone who is ignorant of any history, as someone who learned as a child to obey all laws, and never got past that simple precept to see that life and the world is more complicated than that.

  • Some Things to Consider
    July 1, 2009 6:28 a.m.

    The argument is made that these people break the law, well who hasn't broken a law?

    The argument is made that these people are criminals, but the law against being undocumented isn't a criminal law, any more than jaywalking.

    The argument is made that these people do harm because they send money back home, but if the world wasn't willing to accept the US dollar as an international currency, our overspending would cause great inflation, their sending money home is effectively the opposite of counterfeiting money.

    The argument is made that these people commit more crimes, but newly released studies show this isn't true.

    In short a lot of arguments are made against these people, but the arguments and the truth are not in harmony.

    These people pick our crops, clean our hotel rooms, provide affordable housing to through their high quality and affordable labor, without their contributions, our economy would be less than it is.

    If many common people are frustrated that the government doesn't listen to them, it is because officials in government are aware of, and acknowledge something they don't or refuse to, that these people are great contributors to society.

  • Mike Richards
    July 1, 2009 5:55 a.m.

    Why would obedience to law cause sadness? Here in Utah, and in many other places, we were taught while we were still young that every blessing is predicated upon a law and if we want any blessing we must be willing to live the law to which that blessing belongs.

    America is a good and wonderful place, in part because we have order. That order is sustained by law. Those that obey those laws live freely within an ordered society.

    When laws are disregarded, chaos results. When laws are ignored by those who have taken an oath to uphold those laws, even greater chaos results, because then many are given the impression that our laws are meaningless.

    The law is not meaningless. Breaking a law has consequences. Families will be hurt. Those families were first hurt when they chose to ignore immigration laws. They were hurt again when our politicians wanted their vote and chose to ignore their illegal activity. Now they will be hurt a third time when the original law is enforced.

    Obedience to law brings happiness. Breaking laws brings misery.

    Choices have consequences.

  • Who Needs Facts...
    July 1, 2009 5:51 a.m.

    ... when its easier and less time consuming to rely on emotion.

    The Deseret News should not be surprised when this thoughtful editorial is roundly rejected by the majority of Utahns.

    It was only weeks ago that the current Lt. Governor, a man with zero scientific experience or training questioned a Nobel Prize winning scientist on the validity of global warming.

    With their reaction to this editorial, Utahns will again illustrate how comfortable they are with a fact-free society.

  • LifeoftheMInd
    July 1, 2009 5:46 a.m.

    Why do the Democrats work so hard to steal elections and gain control of legislatures when they advocate ignoring the laws that already exist? The operative word here is "illegal." As for the issue of Federal and State jurisdiction, we already settled that question 136 years ago. Over 600,000 Americans, the equivalent of over 6,000,000 now, died to determine that Congress and the Constitution get to decide who is a citizen, not some local cabal in Atlanta or Selma or Salt Lake City.

  • helen
    July 1, 2009 5:41 a.m.

    Nearly all Federal crimes including arson, bank fraud, bank robbery, bribery, carjacking, child pornography, identity theft, identity fraud and many more are enforced at state, local and federal levels.

    So why would these hypocrites in sanctuary areas feel illegal immigration is any different?

    Those who come here illegally, steal our IDs and ignore our laws have already demonstrated they lack the honesty and decency to ever become American citizens.

    a.) Enforce the existing immigration laws.
    b.) Secure the border.
    c.) Don't hire illegal aliens.
    d.) No anchor babies.
    e.) Deportation through attrition.

  • E-Verify Accurate
    July 1, 2009 1:20 a.m.

    The editorial says, “The law places extra burdens on business owners, requiring them to use an E-verify system for which many of them lack training. Elsewhere, this system has been shown to reject legal residents by mistake.”

    A study in June 2009 by the Program Evaluation Division of the Office of the Legislative Auditor, State of Minnesota found that most participating Minnesota businesses have positive opinions of E-Verify and report that the cost of using the system is not a significant concern. This study also reported that the accuracy of E-Verify has improved and that nationally, 93 percent or more of queries result in immediate verification of work-authorization; less than 1 percent result in erroneous determinations that an employee is not eligible to work.

    Did you get that? Less than 1% of queries result in erroneous determinations that an employee is not eligible to work. This is infinitely more accurate than eyeballing fraudulent IDs and pretending not to notice.

    I just wish all employers were required to use E-Verify. I think the day will come.

  • Consequences
    July 1, 2009 1:17 a.m.

    The editorial says that E-Verify will pull apart families. Families may be pulled apart because the adults CHOSE to enter or stay in this country illegally with full knowledge that they were breaking the law. They certainly do not need to be separated but can take their children home with them. Again, it is their CHOICE. Whatever happened to people being taught to be accountable for their own actions? Breaking laws brings consequences for each of us. It has ever been so. I cannot understand why some folks think illegal aliens and their employers aren’t required to be accountable for their actions like the rest of us.

    How many American families are separated when our soldiers go off to war? How many families are separated when sons or daughters (or parents) go on missions? Consider all the criminals in prisons who are separated from their families. None of these can choose to take their children with them. Illegal aliens are free to do so. Their choice to break the law brought them to this point. It is also their choice about whether or not to break up their family. They do have choices.

  • Doggie
    July 1, 2009 12:06 a.m.

    Typical Desnews Milk Toast.