Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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  • maximyk HOLLYWOOD, FL
    Sept. 25, 2011 6:44 p.m.

    Hello- William Long was indeed Harry Sundance Longbaugh. I have another photograph of William Long taken the same time as his noted photograph which was compared to the Sundance photos. My email is maximyk2@yahoo.com

    July 15, 2011 3:29 p.m.

    This is very interesting to me. I am a direct descendant of Alexander and Mary Jane Long from Fayette Co. PA. William Long's sister Amelia (Emma) was my great-great grandmother. William Long's family moved from PA to Iowa City in the 1860s. Then all I know about William Long is what is found in the 1880 census. I have worked a year on this family and still have much to learn. I don't know enough to know if Bill Long was the Sundance kid or not.

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2010 6:51 p.m.

    Donna Ernst has a file on James Ferguson, she’s the one to ask. Don’t think she’s a blogger.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 31, 2010 9:33 a.m.

    There are records for a Harry Hall in the Washington State penitentiary records for 1907 and 1890 but none in 1899/1900.

    James M. Fergusen md. Rose May Lamb 9 July 1895 - Carbon Co. Marr. Records.

    Also there were two Jim Fergusons around Rawlins at this time. The other was a James Ferguson, rancher born 1868 in Scotland. He was single and lived in Rawlins. There may be some confusion as to who was who.

  • The Artful Codger
    March 30, 2010 2:07 p.m.


    Forgot to sign in. The 1:44 pm post above was my reply to your query.

  • Anonymous
    March 30, 2010 1:44 p.m.


    You probably have these already, but there are refs to Ferguson in Donna Ernst, The Sundance Kid (2009), and Richard Patterson, Butch Cassidy (1998).

    The Wyoming newspaper archive has a two articles about the Hall arrest simlar to the Denver Republican report. Search "Harry Hall" + Wilcox, limiting your search to 1899. My guess is that Hall might have had an alias Ferguson, but he probably wasn't Jim Ferguson, the Sundance friend and Wyoming rancher. Note that the conductor said that Hall bears a "striking resemblance to one of the bandits," but that he's "not yet positive of his identity."

    In any event, Hall seems to disappear from the saga after this brief appearance, so I'll bet he was never even charged.

  • Josh
    March 30, 2010 10:51 a.m.

    Was there any further evidence tying Ferguson to the Wilcox Holdup or was the case dismissed? I tried looking online for any reference to Harry Hall and the Wilcox Holdup but turned up nothing. I had also heard that he might have been accomplice to the planning of a robbery at Tipton, are those 3 articles that you listed the only thing of value in regard to Ferguson or is there more to his story?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 22, 2010 7:01 p.m.

    DNA has proven that William Henry Long was not Harry Longabaugh or Tom McCarty. William Henry Long's family has been found and there is no connection with any of the "Wild Bunch" Sorry all, but this was all just a pipe dream of the Nickles.

  • The Artful Codger
    March 21, 2010 3:58 p.m.


    A couple items:

    Ferguson is mentioned in two Pinkerton 1901 memos, and per a November 1899 Denver Republican article, he had been arrested in Seattle as Harry Hall, alias Ferguson, and tentatively identified as a participant in the Wilcox holdup.

  • Josh Nichols
    March 21, 2010 1:56 p.m.

    Greeting Wild Bunch researchers, my name is Josh and I am the great great grandson of James Milton (Jim) Ferguson. I was hoping some of you might be able to shed some documented light on the Fergusons involvement with the Wild Bunch and any general information that could be shared on their activities. Jim resided in Dixon, WY, Rawlins, WY and Palisade, CO, I have seen his name mentioned several times in my limited research into his affiliation with the Wild Bunch, I'm hoping for a more complete story, thanks a lot.

  • Sandy Woodbridge
    March 20, 2010 7:59 p.m.

    Jerry: I too believe that Bill Long is Sundance. He married Luzernia, my great, great grandmother. I find all of this so interesting. I have heard stories all my life about butch and Sundance from my aunt, Etta Forsyth (deceased 1-2010). Etta was my father's aunt, or my father's mother's sister. I found it very interesting that Sundance bought 3 gold watches in New York, one for Etta.
    Who were the others for? I have pictures of Florence Viola and Evinda Ann each wearing a beautiful gold watch around their necks. Viola also had a gold bracelet on, and my grandmother had on what looked to be a diamond broach. Bill Long had a diamond stick pin on in the same photograph, which he was rumored to have purchased in New York as well.

    Has anyone ever tested his hand writing?

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 4, 2010 11:04 a.m.

    Bob, I’m a little surprised at some of your comments, of all the bloggers I thought you would be the one to pick apart the articles and point out all of the flaws in the authors account of the Winnemuuca bank robbery and escape. As you said, there are more articles on the subject yet to be found. I congratulate you on the Salt Lake Telegram find. I tend to believe the Anaconda article was the original. Question, when or where did Ernst state that the Buenos Aires article was authentic?

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 4, 2010 10:09 a.m.

    Since I’m the one who found the Anaconda Standard Article, I find the debate your having about the Anaconda and Buenos Aires articles interesting. When I found the Anaconda article, I did not believe that it contained anything of historical value that could be used as a research tool and lead to new findings on the history of this notorious gang of bandits.I could write for publication an explanation as to why I concluded the article unworthy and withheld making in public for over a year. Although It’s doubtful, WOLA would publish my belief the article was unworthy of even being considered as a creditable account of the Winnemucca bank robbery and escape. I’ll pass on the WOLA idea, and let you boys continue your debate.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 3, 2010 3:45 p.m.

    GTB - thank God someone has got the point! SDK

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 3, 2010 1:03 p.m.

    Winston, you miss the whole point of the AS,BAS stories. It is not about the details of the Winnemucca robbery that interests historians. There really isn't anything new there. The interest is in a. possible authors, who wrote the story in the first place? did SK really recount this to someone else,who then wrote it all down down? or did someone just come up with it themselves?
    b. how did it get into the hands of both the AS and BAS? Did BAS just lift it from the AS, was the AS the first paper to carry this? Who brought to the attention of the AS?
    c. what does this tell us about BC & SK during the period of 1906-1912?

  • C. E. Winston
    Jan. 30, 2010 9:56 a.m.

    Name one thing that would convince me that any of the Winnemucca bank robbey and escape events, described in the Anaconda Standard or the 1912 Buenos Aires Standard article led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang?
    Talk about simplistic arguments, you say, “who knows how long the "friend" took to transmit the said story to the Anaconda Standard after his return? One day? one Month, One year? etc.” Why not twenty one months, maybe three and a half years?

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 21, 2010 9:49 a.m.

    Mrs. Rumel
    If you think you’ve known a fake in the past, you’d be well served to find out who The Artful Codger, The Sundance Kids, and Back from the Grave, is.

  • Mrs. Rumel
    Jan. 19, 2010 2:55 p.m.

    I am simply adding to the mix that I represent Joseph Rumel and his wife Esther Morgan. Esther's daughter Rosa married Matt Warner and her daughter Sarah blew the whistle on Tom McCarty and Matt. For several years I have been compiling a chronology of events and activities involving these families.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Jan. 19, 2010 2:42 p.m.

    Longabaugh, Longbaugh, Lonbauch, Lonbauh, The name could have been spelled a dozen different ways. The use of standardized spellings is a fairly new phenomenon. The government census indexers of the 1930s developed what they called a soundex system for names found on the census so that names that sounded alike could be indexed together. Differences in in spelling the same name should never be taken into consideration. Anonymous read Mike Bell's article, then study all three versions thoroughly before making simplistic arguments.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 18, 2010 5:35 p.m.

    Give me a break, name one event in the Lonbauch account of the Winnemucca bank robbery and escape, that wasn’t either published, known or rumored by the general public, within six months of the robbery. In October 1900, Longabaugh told the boys at Slater, that he and Cassidy had robbed the bank, told of the dropping of the money bag, how he stopped to retrieve the bag, and exchanged shots with the posse. It was well known in the Little Snake river valley, that Longabaugh and Cassidy with others, robbed the Winnemucca bank. It was also known to many that Will Carver was the third member. The Three Creeks episode at Jim Duncan’s store was also a well known event. After the initial chase with the switch engine, the posse never got close enough to the bank robbers to exchange looks, let alone shots. Of course, if you insist the letter is authentic, we must consider the possibility that Longabaugh was alive and well in 1910.

  • The Artful Codger
    Jan. 18, 2010 2:37 p.m.

    In Mike Bell's article, "Winnemucca Revisited," WOLA Journal, vol. IX, no. 1, Spring 2000, he discusses at great length -- several thousand words -- the inaccuracies and accuracies contained in the 1912 Buenos Aires Standard article. He concludes that in spite of the story's many inaccuracies and however it came to be published in the BAS, it was based upon some communication from or conversation with Sundance.

    The fact that there was an earlier article in the Anaconda Standard in 1910 (and perhaps even earlier versions that have yet to be discovered) doesn't change anything, except to show how articles got borrowed, copied, and rewritten. Yes, rewritten. Rewriting included tarting up. A common newspaper practice of the era.

    As for Longabaugh's name being misspelled, typographical errors were extremely common in the era of telegraphed copy, handset type, etc. Typos persist to this day. Winston rendered Sundance's name as "Sundnace."

    Long and short, before you get your knickers in a twist, read Bell's article.

  • C. E. Winston
    Jan. 18, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    Anonymous I agree
    In the 1887 letter to the editor of the Daily Yellowstone Journal, he spelled his name Harry Longabaugh. In the 1887 Sundance Gazette article, his name was spelled Harry Longabaugh. The Pinkerton detective agency dropped the A and spelled his name Harry Longbaugh, the newspapers either through typo errors or sloppy reporting spelled his name Longbaugh/Lonbaugh/Lonbauch. Are we to believe Harry Longabaugh, Kid Longabaugh The Sundnace Kid would have spelled his name Harry Lonbauch/Longbaugh/Lonbaugh. It’s obvious that the individual who penned the Standard article did not know the correct spelling of Longabaugh. The article is a fictitious account of the Winnemucca Bank robbery, the entire article is riddled with fabricated and provable inaccuracies. The only reason the Buenos Aires Standard article was declared authentic, and a source document was because it was published in Buenos Aires. It’s about time Mike Bell told us how the article led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 18, 2010 8:42 a.m.

    “The recent discovery of a 1912 BA Standard article strongly suggests that the robbery was the work of Wild Bunch, and has also led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang.” “Shed new light on an old controversy.”

    Hog Wash!! The 1912 BA Standard article was nothing more than a rewritten version of the fictitious Anaconda Standard article, written by a Harry Lonbauch.

  • WWTG
    Jan. 15, 2010 6:28 p.m.

    If “Flat Nose” George Currie was killed in 1900, and Will Carver in 1901, who was this Flatnose George Carver? In the article Harry Lonbuagh says “The posse had got him.”
    Like I said, there’s no mention of the posse killing any of the Winnemucca bank robbers.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 15, 2010 5:49 p.m.

    “Flat Nose” George Currie
    Name: George Currie
    Aliases: “Flat Nose” George Currie, John Hunter
    Occupation: Outlaw
    Date of Birth: 1864
    Location of Birth: Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Occupation: Outlaw
    Spouse: Unknown
    Affiliations: The Wild Bunch
    Date of Death: April 17, 1900
    Cause of Death: Shot by Sheriff Jessie M. Tyler
    Location of Death: Price, Utah

    William Richard Carver
    Name: William Richard Carver
    Aliases: Will Carver, Will Casey, G.W. Franks
    Date of Birth: September 12, 1868
    Location of Birth: Wilson County, Texas
    Occupation: Outlaw
    Spouse: Viana Byler (Spouse), Callie May “Lillie” Hunt (Spouse)
    Affiliations: The Wild Bunch
    Date of Death: April 2, 1901
    Cause of Death: Gunshot wounds
    Location of Death: Sonora, Texas

  • WWTG
    Jan. 15, 2010 5:25 p.m.

    The Artful Codger

    Flatnose George Carver, called the colonel, rode with Cassidy and Longabaugh when they robbed the Winnemucca bank. He was killed during the escape.

  • The Artful Codger
    Jan. 15, 2010 4:21 p.m.

    You might be confusing Will Carver and Flat Nose George Currie. Take a look at BUTCH CASSIDY, Richard Patterson; THE SUNDANCE KID, Donna Ernst; THE TALL TEXAN, Arthur Soule; or THE DEADLIEST OUTLAWS, Jeff Burton.

    Burton's book has a wealth of anecdotes about the confusing identities of outlaws because of faulty eyewitnesses, reward seekers, bragging lawmen, imaginative journalists, migrating aliases, simultaneous sightings, resurrections, and all the other disorders that bedevil researchers.

  • Who Was That Guy
    Jan. 15, 2010 2:01 p.m.

    Can Anyone tell me who Flatnose George Carver was, also known as the colonel? I can’t find any record of him, nor the posse having killed a George Carver. In fact I can’t find any mention of any of the Winnemucca bank robbers being killed by a posse or otherwise.

  • The Artful Codger
    Jan. 15, 2010 7:30 a.m.


    If Jerry Nickle had written an article about the Buenos Aires Standard story, it would have been judged on its merits. But he didn't. "Poor little me" arguments about hypothetical scenarios don't carry a lot of water.

    Cut to the chase: Jerry Nickle's idea that William Henry Long was the Sundance Kid is an absurdity. Equally absurd are the ideas of other votaries that Hiram BeBee was the Sundance Kid, William T. Phillips was Butch Cassidy, Ann Bassett was Ethel Place, Etta Buchtel was Ethel Place, Frank Dalton was Jesse James, and Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.

  • Driftwood
    Jan. 14, 2010 8:48 p.m.

    The point that you seem to be missing is; Would Dan Buck have given the same courtesy to Jerry Nickle as he did Mike Bell, if Nickle would have first discovered that article first? Would Buck have ridiculed Nickle if Nickle had the same analysis as Bell did? You will recall that Ernst stated that article was authentic and Mr. Buck never said a pep. Would he have remained silent if Nickle claimed it was authentic?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Jan. 14, 2010 3:25 p.m.

    You sure seem to know a lot about what Dan Buck is thinking. The crux of your statement is that the articles should be used as "proof" that Longabaugh was still alive in 1910. There is nothing in any of the versions that would indicate that. The articles in question are excellent source documents. "Recently wrote" was an editors comment in the Telegram article and seems to be at odds with the Buenos Aries version, which is also at odds with the Anaconda comments. Besides, who knows how long the "friend" took to transmit the said story to the Anaconda Standard after his return? One day? one Month, One year? etc.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 14, 2010 9:48 a.m.

    If The Anaconda Standard, or Salt Lake Telegram articles had been discovered before the Buenos Aires Standard article, and
    Jerry Nickle, or anyone else had presented the articles, as proof that Harry A. Longabaugh (The Sundance Kid), was alive and well in 1910, contrary to his supposed death on November 6, 1908. Do you honestly believe they would have been considered an excellent source document? I think not, DB would have attacked the articles, as if they had been written by William T. Phillips.

  • C. E. Winston
    Jan. 14, 2010 8:56 a.m.

    The articles below strongly suggest that Harry A. Longabaugh (The Sundance Kid) sometimes spelled Longbaugh, was alive and living in the mountains of Bolivia, South America, in 1910.

    This narrative of the holdup of the "Winnemucca (Nevada) bank was prepared for the Standard by Harry Lonbaugh (Lonbauch he spells It), the notorious outlaw, while in the mountains of Bolivia, South America, where, at latest accounts, he still was pursuing the career of a bandit and political revolutionist. He gave the copy to a friend who, returning to the United States, has transmitted it to the Standard. The Anaconda Standard, Sunday Morning, July 10, 1910

    As told by Harry Longbaugh, in a letter which he recently wrote to a friend in Montana. The letter was published in the Anaconda Standard a few days ago. Salt Lake Telegram July 16, 1910.

    The following story of one of their raids was told by one of the bunch to a gentleman at present residing here who has written it out for publication. The Winnemocca Bank Hold Up, as told by one of the Wild Bunch.
    The Buenos Aires Standard, Wednesday April 17, 1912.

  • C. E. Winston
    Jan. 13, 2010 5:39 p.m.

    What did we learn from the Buenos Aires & Anaconda articles?
    Sundance didn’t know how to spell his name? Powder Springs Rendezvous was in Nevada not Wyoming? Red Desert borders Utah? Flat Nose George Curry (deceased) participated? They robbed Tap Duncan’s brother at Three Creeks? They rode two thousand miles and used up one hundred and twenty horses? They left six thousand five hundred dollars buried at Three Creeks?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Jan. 13, 2010 12:47 p.m.

    Correction - - the above mentioned article is in the Salt Lake Telegram 16 July 1910, not the Salt Lake Herald.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Jan. 12, 2010 9:30 p.m.

    You wrote "do you think it would have received the same endorsement as an excellent rumination on an interesting source document?" I think it already has received that endorsement. Dan Buck, deferring to Mike Bell in the matter is an act of professional courtesy seeing as Mike was the one that first brought the article to light and has analyzed it the most. Both versions put an interesting nuance to Longabaugh's activities in both the U.S. and South America.

    By the way, the Salt Lake Herald also carried part of the same story a few weeks after the Anaconda Standard, it has an even more interesting twist to it, focusing on the missing loot. Check it out.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Jan. 12, 2010 2:04 p.m.


    The 1912 article was discovered first. Several years later the 1910 article, an earlier, slightly different version, was discovered. Regardless of which one was discovered first, both are interesting source documents, and shed new light on an old controversy, if I may borrow a phrase.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 12, 2010 9:26 a.m.

    Excerpts from Mike Bell's article:
    “The Winnemucca Bank Robbery: Sundance tells the tale from South America” A long-ignored article in the Buenos Aires Standard sheds new light on an old controversy: who robbed the First National Bank of Winnemucca, Nevada? Soon after the 1900 holdup, a controversy arose as to whether the bandits were members of the Wild Bunch, local outlaws, or bank insiders. The recent discovery of a 1912 BA Standard article strongly suggests that the robbery was the work of Wild Bunch, and has also led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang.”
    The Anaconda Standard, Sunday Morning, July 10, 1910 article pre dates the Buenos Aires article by nearly two years, if it had been discovered first, do you think it would have received the same endorsement as an excellent rumination on an interesting source document? Evidently, it all depends on who decides it best fit’s the individuals theory.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Jan. 11, 2010 7:30 p.m.

    Anonymous just what is your point??

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 11, 2010 10:51 a.m.

    Source Documents???
    "Buenos Aires Standard, Wednesday April 17, 1912. The “Wild Bunch” The recent discovery of a 1912 BA Standard article strongly suggests that the robbery was the work of Wild Bunch, and has also led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang. Mike Bell,“ “All in all, Bell's article is an excellent rumination on an interesting source document. Dan Buck.”

    The Anaconda Standard, Sunday Morning, July 10, 1910 - “Excellent, excellent.
    I passed the A. Standard version on to Mike Bell to see what observations he may have. The 1912 BsAs Standard version, as you may have noticed, is somewhat different. Someone rewrote parts of it. Dan Buck.”

  • Michelle Nickle Smedema
    Jan. 10, 2010 12:13 p.m.

    For those interested in following this story, Deseret News published a followup article on 12-28-09. You can do a Google search on "Digging up the Past Sundance Kid" to find the link.

  • rock springs native
    Jan. 9, 2010 10:32 a.m.

    Wow....took me 3 days to read this entire blog. Very interesting reading. Hats off to all who have contributed. Thank You


  • The Bibliographer
    Jan. 4, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    Actually,Wyoming Native, in the back of said book there is a bibliography, dozens of references on three pages. Anyone would find lots of references there to follow up on, if they were so inclined.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Jan. 4, 2010 3:57 p.m.

    Kind of like Jerry not offering even one substantive piece of information connecting Long with Sundance

  • Wyoming Native
    Jan. 2, 2010 1:00 p.m.

    Chosttown Bob- Your brief comment reminds me of a 300 page plus book that I have. In the back, where one would expect a bibliography, entitled "Some Sources" it states in the first paragraph, "A complete bibliography listing the thousands of interviews, letters, and publications that served as resources for this book would be longer than the book itself. This list of publications and archival materials, therefore, is merely a sampler." Is this what you mean about "without the proof to back it up." ???

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Dec. 21, 2009 1:39 p.m.

    Just a jumble of words without the proof to back it up.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Dec. 9, 2009 4:36 p.m.

    The first DNA results we submitted and coordinated did not come back the way we anticipated. Since that time, however, our continuing research has unearthed some startling DNA truths and discoveries which we are not going to publicly comment on at this time. Our investigation is ongoing and will surprise many who have followed and doubted our story. Keep tuned in and hold on to your hat - when this is made public it will blow you away.

  • Ross Nickle
    Nov. 16, 2009 9:41 p.m.

    For the record, the statement "DNA evidence failed to link" by KSL does not mean Bill Long is conclusively not Sundance. To trace Longs DNA to a living relative, you have to go through at least 5 different people and 3 or 4 generations, any one of which could render the verdict "inconclusive",(adoption, mistake in geneology, ect). The fact of the matter in this case is that if the sequences do not line up, the result is just simply "INCONCLUSIVE!!" I should know. My sister Bambie and I were the first to get the mitochondrial DNA of Bill Long. And once again, the bullet had missed. The genetic holy grail of western outlaw studies is extremely elusive. Just ask Dan Buck. On the other hand, historical identity can be proven with evidences outside of DNA.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Sept. 29, 2009 6:02 p.m.

    This story is not over. There is information that has not been released and will be released publicly at the appropriate time

  • The Sundance Kids
    Sept. 28, 2009 10:27 a.m.

    From KSL TV/Radio in Salt Lake City:

    DNA evidence shoots holes in Sundance Kid theory
    September 15th, 2009 @ 10:06pm
    By John Hollenhorst

    SALT LAKE CITY -- Modern science has shot some holes in a controversial theory about a famous Utah outlaw. A team has been exploring the theory that rancher William Henry Long was really the Sundance Kid. Long's bones were dug up in the Duchesne City Cemetery a few months ago, but DNA evidence failed to link him to the Sundance Kid. Despite the fact that the piece of evidence researchers were hoping for the most has turned against them, they are not giving up. The investigation began last year. Old family stories tied Long to the outlaw gang known as "The Wild Bunch." The leaders, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, supposedly died in a shootout in South America in 1908, but Long lived to a ripe old age and died in Utah in 1936. . . . .

    (The rest of the story is on the KSL website.)

  • Kid Charter
    Sept. 15, 2009 4:31 p.m.

    The People's Voice article of October 30, 1897, J. Galloway and E. Lahey, Harry Alonzo’s Belle Fourche alibi witnesses.

    J. Galloway - Jesse F. Galloway, 26 Jun 1835, Indiana, 17 Dec 1905, Dixon, Carbon County, Wyoming,

    E. Lahey, - Emmett Elden Leahy, 11 Jan 1877, Missouri, 29 Aug 1960, San Joaquin, California. (Leahy misspelled in The People's Voice article). Both Galloway and Leahy were ranchers in the Snake River Valley, in 1897.

    Jesse F. Galloway’s first wife was Martha Medlock, they had one child, a son named Francis Marion Galloway, 18 Sep 1862, Missouri, 12 May 1950, Dixon, Carbon County, Wyoming. Jesse F. Galloway’s second wife was Elizabeth A. Beeler, sister of Hester Jennie “Beeler” Leahy, the mother of Emmett Elden Leahy.

    March 1912, Emmett Elden Leahy married Mary Mae Galloway, the daughter of Francis Marion Galloway.

    Jennie “Beeler” Leahy and Elizabeth “Beeler” Galloway were the sisters of Oscar Perry Beeler and were the first cousins of Conrad Mack Beeler, Little Snake River ranchers. The Galloways, Leahys and Beelers all came to the valley, in the 1880/90’s, from Missouri.

  • Kid Charter
    Sept. 15, 2009 6:41 a.m.

    June 6, 1908.
    Mr. Jas McParland,
    Denver, Colo.
    Dear Sir:-
    You might be interested in knowing that “Butch” Cassidy’s partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River. He has been at Baggs for about six days staying with Bert Charters. There is another stranger who seems to be a friend of his, a very large light complected man, also here. I am writing this information for what it might be worth to you.
    Truly yours, C. E. Ayer. May 26, 1908.

    Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1909 Month: 04-April Day: 24 Page: 02
    Miss Calvert Becomes a Bride. W. H. McGinnis and Miss Mary Calvert of Baggs were married at Hahns Peak a couple of weeks ago, the announcement being received through papers from that section.
    The bride is a daughter of L. Calvert the Baggs merchant, and has a large circle of friends on the river. Mr. McGinnis was formerly a resident of Baggs.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 14, 2009 4:59 p.m.

    William Ellsworth Lay alias William H. McGinnis. I know how his name is spelled, evidently the Pinkerton’s didn’t.
    M/A/Z/E Butch and Sundance - Elzy Lay PDNA Description.

  • Wyoming Native
    Sept. 14, 2009 11:25 a.m.

    Elzy might have been alias Johnson but his correct name was William Elzworth Lay and his nick name was spelled Elzy! Just thought you might like to know.


  • Anonymous
    Sept. 11, 2009 7:52 a.m.

    Kid | 7:51 a.m. April 7, 2009
    May 26, 1908.
    You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River

    Who was alias Johnson?

    P. N. D. A. Denver Agency.
    Name Wm H. McGinnis alias Ealz A. Lay alias Johnson.

  • Kjd Charter
    Sept. 2, 2009 7:29 p.m.

    Depending on which Charter you are speaking of, I’m either a Grandnephew or Grandson.

  • dclayrn
    Sept. 1, 2009 2:21 p.m.

    Kid Charter, I am directly related to the Charters you are speaking of .. just wanting to know if you are as well.. My sister along with others in the family have a vast amount of infor. if you are intrested.

  • Wyoming Native
    Aug. 15, 2009 11:14 a.m.


    Get a copy of Chip Carlson's "I Slickered Tom Horn" which I think is still in print and much less expensive. It has about all one would want concerning Joe. Siringo was about of the same stripe but at least he saw the light after quitting the Pinks! Don't believe everything you read about either one of them though!


  • GUE
    Aug. 11, 2009 8:35 a.m.

    Wyoming Native,

    That's interesting. I sometimes wonder about Siringo's accounts as well; I know it would've taken a lot of bravery/etc. to pursue people like Harvey Logan, but he's never afraid to talk about it. LeFors' autobiography is pretty tough to get a hold of (expensive too).

  • Wyoming Native
    Aug. 10, 2009 6:20 a.m.

    GUE- Concerning your Aug 1 comment about Joe LeFors. If anyone was taking liberties in this instance it was Joe LeFors. His autobiography is pretty self serving. I have been told that if you want to read an accurate story on a person read a biography not an autobiography!


  • just wondering
    Aug. 3, 2009 8:34 p.m.

    Does anyone know who Cail, Judy, and Henrie or Cail, and Judy Henerie might be in relation to or traveling with Sunance Kid. Possibly in the Panguitch area around 1927, if thats even possible. If so I have a interesting photo.

    Just Wondering

  • GUE
    Aug. 1, 2009 1:43 p.m.

    Kid Charter,

    I've never come across those discrepancies before, but very fascinating. I wonder if the reporter was taking liberties with LeFors' account. Having recently read each of the contemporary newspaper accounts on the M/A/Z/E site, I'm getting a clearer picture of how "facts" change, even at the time.

    Do you ever get people emailing accounts about relatives who saw Butch Cassidy after his return to the U.S.?

  • Kid Charter
    July 31, 2009 11:27 a.m.

    Interview with Joe LeFors, Tipton Train Robbery: September 18, 1900

    He says in the interview, “After they (the train robbers) got through they mounted their horses and rode out seven miles where they stopped and cooked a meal.” (Delaney springs). “They could ride at night, traveling by compass, but we could only follow during daylight. Then there came a heavy rain storm and the sand just melted together and obliterated their tracks and it was simply impossible to follow them.” LeFors makes no mention of finding money wrappers, nor does he say he spotted three men on a ridge. To my knowledge, none of the deputies of any posse tracking the Tipton train robbers ever made a statement, supporting Leflors claims, nor did any of them make a similar statement.
    Perhaps, someone out there would be kind enough to address the discrepancies in what Joe Lefors told the reporter, on September 18, 1900, and the statements supposedly attributed to Marshall Joe Lefors later.

  • Kid Charter
    July 31, 2009 11:24 a.m.


    Marshall Joe LeFors claimed that he tracked the Tipton train robbers to Delany springs, LaFors claimed he found money wrappers on the escape route at Little Snake River, and LeFors claimed his posse reached the Snake River, near the Colorado border and were in visual range of three men with horses, climbing the slope on the other side of the river.

    Yet in an interview less than three weeks after the train robbery, in his statements to the reporter, about the pursuit of the train robbers, Joe LeFlors’s account of the pursuit is nearly identical to the statements made to the newspapers, by Marshall Hadsell, Marshall Payne, and Sheriff McDaniel when they returned to Rawlins.


  • Contacting Eamonn O'Neill
    July 25, 2009 3:05 p.m.

    Hello Everyone - Greetings from the other side of the Atlantic. I have been inundated with people wanting to contact we regarding the work I did for my book a decade a go on Butch and Sundance. I have lost count of the people who've written, called and emailed me. Best way to grab me is via www.eamonnoneill.net. I promise to do my best to answer everyone as soon as I can! Some great posts here by the way. A few way off-base. But lot's on the mark. Some strange stuff has come my way down the years. I firmly believe lots is still to be uncovered. A mother-load still exists out there. Anway, happy travels and you know where to reach me guys. Best wishes, Eamonn O'Neill. www.eamonnoneill.net

  • Tartan Cowboy
    July 24, 2009 12:16 p.m.

    Sound like you saw some interesting places over here.
    Like GUE,i get lost sometimes trying to keep up.Exactly how many robberies did BC/Sk pull off?
    And what about Wilcox,How many actually took part
    Seems to be some confusion over this?

  • Butch
    July 24, 2009 9:57 a.m.


    Thanks so much for responding. I've become a real student of Ms Meadows "Digging" and whatever I can get my hands on of Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows articles and letters to the editors. I have the idea that every possible scrap of information we can get about the activities of Butch, Harry, and Ethel in SA is extraodinarily useful. In a sense they are like Pointer in that you can disagree with the conclusion of the work, but no fair minded person can fault the research or the quality and quantity of it. My thirst for more detail is a compliment to them for they have whetted my appetite for more. Thanks for helping to slake my thirst.

    If "no good deed goes unpunished" is a natural law, you might expect that I have more questions of you.
    The translation of Gavriati's book that I have makes reference to an 1887 "recruiting trip" to Texas for cowboys for the Newberry Ranch. (By George? Ranch at Rio Negro?) Any additional facts or detail you are of a mind to provide would be most appreciated. Thanks again.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 24, 2009 7:41 a.m.

    Tartan Cowboy:

    Everyone in the UK is friendly. Saw: Spean Bridge and the monument to the Commandos, Ring of Brodgar and other rings in Orkney (reminded me of the Medicine Wheel west of Dayton, Wyoming), Skara Brae, Cawdor, Clava, Culloden, the Great Glen, and the Royal Mile.

    Re Letter from George Newbery. Would be similar to a letter written by John C. Perry's wife back to Ozona indicating that some Americans had moved to Cholila and that her husband recognized them as Texas outlaws.

    George Newbery, the dentist, was the uncle of Jorge Alejandro Newbery the balloonist and aviator. George and Ralph Newbery (Jorge's father) were the sons of a Long Island, New York, dentist who moved to Buenos Aires. Both George and Ralph as well as another brother Rudolfo were dentists. George and Ralph had a ranch some 100+ kilometers north of Cholila. Eduardo Newbery mysteriously disappeared. Jorge (the aviator) attended Cornell and graduated from Drexel.

  • Butch
    July 22, 2009 7:38 p.m.

    You needn't worry about Siringo's 5th Book. The only copy of that you can get your hands on for under 50K is the only document in Charlie Siringo's personell file in the Pinkerton documents at LOC.

    After you've done the research on the two men as I've suggested, I expect that you'll arrive at a point where you can't rule out Phillips being Moore and you can't prove he is.

    Welcome to the world of the Bunchers.

    Now, if you have a command of the subject matter and if you remember the exchange I had with Mr Buck about Wyoming, 1887 and Charlie Siringo at the Keeline ranch you will recall that Tom Nichols/Hall received a letter from a Texas killer in cahoots with Dentist George Newberry in Argentina. And if you follow Siringo's trail you will find Outlaw Bill on the Chilicoot trail in Alaska, 1896. And if your're very persistent on the trail you will run across Pinkerton Informant #85 in California in 1910. Now if you haven't run out of gas, proceed to mastering the criminal history of Jim and Charley Ferguson.

    Continued ......

  • Butch
    July 22, 2009 7:20 p.m.

    GUE and TCB:

    The only photo of William J. C. Moore that I know of occurs following page 48 in "Siringo" by Ben E. Pingenot. Please remember I am not a computer person and am not up to speed on what is avilable on-line. You both are much more qualified than I am to search the net. Web? Web net? Whatever.

    The photo comparison is one thing, however, as we have seen, photo comparison is a very tricky business and usually not dispositive of anything. I think I see a definate similarity between the two photos. I think the left eye is definative. What if the photos are of the same person? More to the point, is it possible they are of the same person? To answer that question you would have to carefully research both Bill Phillips and Outlaw Bill and you're going to have to compare their physical descriptions right down to height, weight, eye and hair color, complexion, and scars, marks, blemishes --and the left eye anomalie. Best you become a master of Larry Pointer, carefully read Bandit Invincible (now that is on line)and the four Charlie Siringo books you can get.

    Continued ......

  • Tartan cowboy
    July 22, 2009 4:14 p.m.

    I'd also like to see that photo to compare with phillips.
    Hope the scots were hospitipal to you on your sojourn?Which parts of Scotland did you see?

  • GUE
    July 22, 2009 1:06 p.m.

    HCC: Thanks for the information on DiMaio. That handwritten article may be a little tough to track down. Too bad he hadn't gotten it down earlier. In fact, I'm surprised there isn't more written about DiMaio, or even LeFors for that matter.

    Butch: Is this "Outlaw Bill" (circa 1887) photo online? I'd like to compare it to Phillips.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 22, 2009 12:02 p.m.

    Dates in Cholila:

    Chatwin, citing the Police Commissioner has the trio in Cholila in June of '01. Seemingly, there may be confusion in years. He seemingly has this after registering for the land. That was in April 02, but registration gives numbers of animals, etc. so they were already there.

    DiMaio. Meadows cites a handwritten memorandum written 40 years after the fact. Observation: Years tend to get confused that long after the fact, witness the next paragraph which cites 104 year old Pedro Pena as a source.

    To add to confusion relating to place of death of the duo, Gavirati cites Chatwin as suggesting that the two were killed at Rio Pico: "Segn Bruce Chatwin, sugiriendo que los bandoleros muertos en Ro Pico eran Butch Cassidy y Sundance Kid, el soldado Pedro Pena, sobreviviente del tiroteo, habra afirmado en una entrevista realizada en 1970 en Rawson (a la edad de 104 aos), que sobre los cuerpos de los bandoleros se hallaron dos relojes de oro y la foto de 'una mujer hermossima'." Gavirati suggests, however, that no other sources confirm the photo of the beautiful woman.

  • GUE
    July 22, 2009 10:09 a.m.

    Thanks, Butch. I think I remember reading somewhere that Pointer may have changed his opinion about Phillips, maybe it was a comment from Dan Buck. I'm not trying to stir things up, but any thoughts on that?

  • Butch
    July 21, 2009 6:10 p.m.

    At the present time I believe it is fair to say that the weight of opinion amoung Wild Bunchers is that Phillips was not Cassidy, but either knew him or knew close associates of Cassidy. A good deal of Pointer's work may have found its way into Lula Parker Betenson's "Butch Cassidy, My Brother", and he is referenced in a good many indexes of Wild Bunch literature.

    While I am in Dullenty's camp and do not believe Phillips was Cassidy, I find Mr. Pointer an excellent source of information on a quick reference basis. I can reccomend him as a very good basic book in your library. It should also be noted that Pointer was instrumental in bringing Boyd Charter's 1925 encounter with Cassidy to the public, and he interviewed several of the Charter family members, all of whom spoke well of him. In a good many circles, if you bring up Bill Phillips, get set for a spirited if not heated debate. Here is a great example. Ready, fellow bloggers?

    Compare the circa 1887 photo of William J. C. "Outlaw Bill" Moore photo to the 1937 Bill Philipps photo. Look at the left eye.


  • Butch
    July 21, 2009 5:55 p.m.


    Pat Schroeder's Butch in Alaska story was, I think, told by Larry Pointer in his book "In Search of Butch Cassidy". Pointer's basic premise was that Butch Cassidy was, after his return from SA, one William Thadeus Phillips. Pointer used as his primary source a handwritten script by Phillips intended as a movie script under the working title of "The Bandit Invincible". In addition to that, Pointer and his wife conducted extensive interviews with survivors of the era in Wyoming and elsewhere in the west. Pointer also did quite a lot of research using the WPA writer's project materials as a guide. In addition to all that, Pointer did quite a lot of basic research in prison records, and reviewed and summarized with surprising accuracy some of the primary Pinkerton Documents available to him.

    Initially Mr Pointer partnered with Jim Dullenty, a very respected writer and researcher, who began his career as an investigative reporter for a NW newspaper. As the research progressed, Dullenty formed the opinion that Phillips was not Cassidy, and the two men went their separate ways, with Pointer going forward on his own.

    Continued ....

  • GUE
    July 21, 2009 3:53 p.m.

    Butch: Yes, I think that's a strong approach, particularly given all the detailed information floating around. Frankly, I'm having trouble keeping up from time to time. But very informative!

    HCC:Have you ever come across something published by Frank DiMaio in book form, a la Charlie Siringo?

    Question: I once contacted Pat Schroeder, President and CEO of the Association of American Publishers (AAP)regarding her theories about Butch. I believe she may have once been a blogger here. She was kind enough to respond and offered only one enigmatic comment, claiming that Butch was in Alaska and made his way back down to the states through Vancouver in the early part of the century. At one point, she claimed to have pertinent information regarding Butch's life after SA. I think there was a veiled reference to a murder in there as well. Her email is currently out of commission. Does anyone know about her theories? Has she published any of them?

  • Butch
    July 21, 2009 3:43 p.m.

    As you blogged previously, it isn't credible that Longabaugh and Ethel would transport the negative to SA and then bring it back to DeYoungs in April, 1902. Therefore, I deduce that if Longabaugh and Ethel transported the negative from Buffalo to NYC, they did so by their arrival on or about February 1, 1901. If so, the negative could have been discovered by the Pinkertons as they followed up on the April 3, 1902 mail cover on Samanna, in plenty of time for Robert Pinkerton's July 29, 1902 memo to say, incorrectly, that the photo had been taken at DeYoungs.

    I'd appreciate a critique from you on this line of thought.

    Final item. Reading Ms. Meadows book, and working from a friend's translation of Gavirati, I come up with an arrival date in Chubut approximately April/May 1901. I realize you blogged from memory. When you get the chance, would you look at your notes and let me know if the arrival was, in your opinion, April/May or late 1901?

    Thanks. I always look forward to your blogs, and super find on the Bliss photo. We're all in your debt.

  • Butch
    July 21, 2009 3:20 p.m.


    I think you nailed the post April 3, 1902 Dimaio Notebook page perfectly. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, we begin with the proposidtion that Longabaugh and Ethel were not in Buffalo for the Bliss Photo in 1901. Given that, I'd like to float the following for review and discussion:

    1.) Gooldy says that Gillespie received the Bliss/DeYoung photo a few months after Gillespie received a letter from Harry from Wolcott. If so, I put receipt of the photo somewhere around March, 1901 --give or take.

    2.) So far as we know from the Pinkerton Documents Harry and Ethel were in New York approximately Feb 1 -Feb 20, 1901, went to SA, and did not return until April 3, 1902. If so, the only opportunity to be in Buffalo in time to get Gillespie a photo by March, 1901, was before arrival in NY,or December, 1900 or January, 1901. We have Longabaugh in Fort Worth, November, 1900.

    3.) If the photo was taken in Buffalo, December, 1900 or January, 1901, the most reasonable conclusion is that the negative was moved to DeYoung's in NY by approximately Feb. 1, 1901.

    Continued ....

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 21, 2009 2:27 p.m.

    Subject: Loose ends.
    1. Pinkertons had no way of knowing or suspecting that Longabaugh or Ethel were in Buffalo except through the letters to Harry's family. Nor would they know to check with photo studio, except by learning of the photo in the opening of the mail. If they were to purchase a copy from Bliss they certainly did not need paste board frame. Ergo, they stole it, but the frame is not something that would be publicly bandied about.
    2. Except for the one note indicating the '01 date, nothing else indicates that the duo were in Buffalo in '01. My memory (without double checking notes) is that the three arrived in Chubut late in the year. Some doubt may exist as to the date they arrived. Edward VII did not decide the boundary between Chile and Argentina in the Cholila Valley until November of '02. Local lore from the 1930's had "Boots" and Sr. y Sra. Place arriving in '01.

  • Butch
    July 21, 2009 1:58 p.m.

    GUE: You're more than welcome. The further we move away fom current literature by "experts" and the closer we move toward the actual documents I believe the closer we move toward facts, and ultimately, truth.

    Suppose that rather than treating The Wild Bunch as an historical inquiry, we treated it as a criminal case that had been brought to trial. Further suppose that you and I and others on this blog were selected to serve on the jury. What then, would we jury members demand of the Prosecution and Defense? I expect that we would demand credible evidence which is to say facts leading to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Competent counsul on both sides of the issue would argue facts and evidence. As honest jurors we would carefully weigh the evidence and arguments, be impartial, give both sides a fair hearing, and then deliberate to reach a verdict.

    Under no circumstances would we accept rumor, theory, hypothesis, unsubstantiated allegations, or opinion as "evidence". We would accept qualified "expert opinion", but in that context "expert" does not mean a published author.

    Foremost authorities need not apply!

  • Colin Taylor
    July 21, 2009 1:16 p.m.

    Driftwood- Your assertion that HL was involved in the Wagner train robbery surprises me. You quote two papers published eleven days after the robbery. The only reason that HL was suspected of involvement was that he had perpetrated a train robbery at virtually the same location nearly nine years before. Newspapers then were about the same as they are today. No one is interested in old news so---they tend to make stuff up. There is little indication that four men were involved in the robbery. This came from a woman passenger who thought she saw someone holding the horses on the south side of the train and from Walt Coburn in his book where he states he remounted four horsebackers later the evening of July 3rd. Three men were eventually caught with the money. Harvey Logan in Knoxville, Ben Kilpatrick in St. Louis and O.C. Hanks was shot to death in Flo Williams saloon in San Antonio, TX. CT

  • GUE
    July 21, 2009 1:05 p.m.

    Thanks, Butch, for the information on statute of limitations information. Puts a few thing in perspective.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 21, 2009 1:02 p.m.

    Re Longabaugh at Wagner.

    Both Charles Smith and William O'Neil, the express messenger and fireman respectively on the Flyer, positively identified one of the robbers as Longabaugh. Now the rest of the story:

    Following the arrest of one of the robbers in St. Louis with possession of the stolen notes, on November 13m 1901, both travelled to St. Louis and positively identified the robber as Longabaugh whom they had identified as one of the participants in the robbery of the Flyer. The difficulty is that later the person they identified as Longabaugh turned out, upon identification by the Sheriff of Concho County to be (drum roll please) Ben Kilpatrick. The confusion is that no one in Wagner knew what Longabaugh or for that matter Kilpatrick looked like. For explanation see Salt Lake Herald, November 14, 1901. Kilpatrick later confessed.

  • Butch
    July 21, 2009 11:30 a.m.


    I think you make an excellent argument, and I hope it gets discussed on this blog. I'd like to make two points, although I don't have any idea how important they might be.

    1,) I don't know that the Bliss version of the Photograph is in the Pinkerton files in LOC. I followed the web address given on this blog and found it in LOC scans. If the Bliss photo is in the LOC Pinkerton files, I flat missed it on my visits there. It might be there, I just didn't see it there.

    2.) I'd appreciate you developing the date of summer 1901 for the Longabaugh alias Ethel Place visit to Buffalo. So far as I am aware, the summer 1901 date comes from Frank Dimaio's notebook entry found at Container 89, Folio 13, written post April 3, 1902, the date of the Philly Pinkerton mailcover on Samanna Longabaugh, which is where Dimaio's summer 1901 date comes from. I thought HCC did an exceptionally good job of explaining that entry. Perhaps you, HCC, and others will discuss this further. I hope so.

  • Driftwood
    July 20, 2009 7:47 p.m.

    The “Cody Enterprise” issue of July 11, 1901 gives only one name as one of the Wagner Robbers. That name was Longabaugh. But it has a description of all three robbers. Two were of medium height (Longabaugh and Curry) and the third robber was tall ( Kilpatrick)

    In the Anaconda Standard issue of July 14, 1901 it gives two names, Longabaugh and Kid Curry. It also has a description of the robbers, which match Longabaugh, Curry and Kilpatrick.

    The Longabaugh/Kilpatrick confusion happened latter in St Louis when Kilpatrick was arrested. He had a paper with the name Longabaugh written on it. The newspapers assumed he was Longabaugh. But at the time of the robbery there was no confusion. The robbers were Longabaugh, Curry and Kilpatrick. Hanks was holding the horses.

  • Driftwood
    July 20, 2009 6:57 p.m.

    If the Bliss photo comes from the Library of Congress (Pinkerton Files) I would say it is authentic. Being authentic we know it was taken in Buffalo. The only time Harry went to Buffalo was when he went to the hospital there in the summer of 1901. This means BS&E did not tour New York in Jan or Feb 1901 as all the authors to date have written.

  • Butch
    July 20, 2009 6:14 p.m.


    I'm not sure that any evidence of Longabaugh returning to the U. S. in 1901 that is generated from or associated with Wagner will ever be dispositive. The reason for my belief is that Kilpatrick was identified as Longabaugh for a while. Thus, with Kilpatrick in the U. S., anyone who wishes to do so might argue that it was Kilpatrick whom people saw and identified as Longabaugh.

    That said, don't you find it strange that the two men who had such different descriptions were confused? I do.

    Do you think it possible that Steryl Roberts and his brother had their identities appropriated by "Frank Roberts" and "Tom Roberts"? If so, is it possible that this is the source of the confusion and can accounts for some --but not all-- of the confusion?

    Just a thought. I'd appreciate your views.

  • Kid Montana
    July 20, 2009 3:29 p.m.


    if the photo of Sundance and Etta was stolen by the pinkerton out of the longabaugh family mail, was it the bliss or the deyoung photo?

  • Butch
    July 20, 2009 3:06 p.m.

    3.) The payment of a reward had nothing whatever to do with the two being able to see and talk to "Roberts" lawyers.

    4.) "Harry Alonzo" couldn't have joined the Powder Springs Gang last winter (1896/97) Harry and Bert Charter were wintering the Reader Cattle at Reader Cabin Draw, and if they rustled them, Al Reader never said so.

    5.) Bob Lee said he met Frank Scramble between Jan-June, 1897 at Cripple Creek, Colorado. Scramble can't be Harry because Harry was working for Al Reader during that time.

    6.) If Galloway and Leahy went to Pierre (Deadwood?)
    met with Roberts, alabied him to Temple and partner, why in the world would Roberts break jail? That makes no sense.

    So, HCC, those are some more reasons why I just can't get past my notion --however misguided and silly --that Harry wasn't at Deadwood, that he didn't break jail, and that he wasn't Frank Scramble, Frank Roberts, or Frank Jones.

    Help me out. Somebody throw me a life preserver, please.

  • Butch
    July 20, 2009 2:54 p.m.

    2.)There was more than five named suspects:

    --Harvey Logan, clearly a participant, and a "Roberts", or Jones if you like
    --George Flatnose Currie, clearly a participant.
    --The elusive Mr. Roberts, or Jones, or Scramble, depending on your preference.
    --Robert E. Lee, clearly guilty only of possessing stolen money.
    --Lonnie Logan, clearly guilty only of possessing stolen money.

    The fact is, after the May 5, 1900 interview with Lee, nobody was looking for a sixth man, and Hadsell was only interested in Frank Roberts/Jones/Scramble as Harvey Ray. Hadsell's correspondence with the Pinkertons following the interview makes this last point crystal clear.

    The further fact is there never was a want or warrant issued for either Butch or Harry for either Tipton or Wilcox. Ever. Never.

    On Frank Jones/Roberts/Harry: The People's Voice article detailing Galloway and Leahy's involvement is fraught with problems:

    1.) Neither man could have gone to Fort Pierre to see Alonzo. Frank Roberts was locked up in the Lawrence County Jail in Deadwood, not Pierre.

    2.) Payment of a reward would have nothing whatever to do with their ability to see "Roberts". He wasn't being held incomunacado.

    Continued ....

  • Butch
    July 20, 2009 2:37 p.m.


    Winnemucca: I think you've confused the supposed "indictments" of Butch and Harry with the various wants, warrants, and indictments for Frank Jones, Dave Jones, Charlie Craig, "Perkins" Melville Fuller, Willie Wier and Francis Silve, all of whom were arrested/detained/incarcerated --however briefly-- for the Winnemucca job. At the encouragement of the Pinkertons it is perfectly understandable that one, some, or all of these suspects were confused in the minds of the Protective Committee as being Parker and Longabaugh. However, Protective Committee confusion or not, the fact remains that Parker and Longabaugh --under any allowable variation of their respective names -- were never indicted for Winnemucca. Ever. Nope. The SOL tolled for the boys on at midnight on September 19, 1906. It was a good thought, though, and nice detail. Thanks for bringing it up. When I asked for the court issuing the indictment I was fishing for either Grand Jury or District Court.

    On Wilcox: You've accurately stated the theories and supposition of our "experts" but the primary problem with all of them is that:

    1.) There were not three sets of tracks going south.

    Continued .......

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 20, 2009 1:22 p.m.

    Re various issues:

    1. The Anaconda Standard "sighting. Newspaper accounts of the time were unreliable. Practically all robberies of the time were attributed to the duo. Last spring, I gave a listing of sightings reported in various newspapers. The generally accepted theory is that Sundance and Ethel did not return to US until 1902, although there was one report from 1901 in Buffalo.
    William Pinkerton in his 1903 report to ABA indicated that the duo had left the country, but he knew where they were.
    2. Going on memory, it is my understanding that following the Wilcox robbery, the gang split, half northward toward the Hole in the Wall and half southward toward Colorado. The robbery was attributed to the Roberts Brothers, a name sometimes allegedly used by Butch and Sundance.
    3. Venue for any indictment would have been Humboldt County. Indictment in the mane of "George Parker" and "Henry Longbaugh" The error in name would not, however, under Nevada law been fatal to the indictment. The report was in the fall of '02. My guess then is 1902.
    4. Theory on Photo. It was stolen by Pinkertons out of mail to Longabaugh's family.

  • Butch
    July 20, 2009 12:53 p.m.

    At Lee's trial, none of the witnesses testified that they ever saw more than three robbers at any one time.

    Lee's Description of "Frank Scramble" tallies exactly with that of Frank Jones/Roberts as given by Sheriff Plunkett in Deadwood.

    Putting this all together what I come up with is that three and only three men robbed Wilcox: Harvey Logan, George "Flatnose" Currie, and Harvey Ray.

    And that is precisely the problem I'm having because if Harvey Ray was the third robber then Ray was "Frank Scramble" and Frank Roberts/Jones. And, if Frank Roberts/Jones is Harvey Ray, then Harry Longabaugh wasn't arrested in Montana, wasn't in Deadwood, and didn't break jail on October 31, 1897.

    That would be consistent with Wilson D. "Billy" Smith not identifying Frank Jones/Roberts as Longabaugh through two court proceedings. It is also consistent with Hicks and Smith returning to Montana after George Currie, the missing named defendant of the Butte County Robbery.

    If Harry wasn't in jail in Deadwood, and wasn't Frank Jones/Roberts, why couldn't he have been in Loa, fathering a child under the name Bill Long?



  • Butch
    July 20, 2009 12:34 p.m.

    I'd also appreciate your help in trying to deal with the following isssues regarding Wilcox.

    1.) Wayne Kindred makes, I think, a convincing argument that there were three and only three robbers, and not four, five, or six, as various people have contended.

    2.) Kindred relies on, among other things, the May 5, 1900 interview with Bob Lee. Lee, of course, has a vested interest in maintaining that there were only three robbers, since if that were proved he would have been wrongfully convicted. Never the less, Lee's contention that Harvey Logan, Frank Scramble, and the "man who went to Utah" were the robbers is borne out by:

    --Hazen and posse followed three and only three sets of tracks from the robbery point.
    --Horn's "interrogation" of Speck produced the information that two of the robbers were George Flatnose Currie and Harvey Ray. A third man who was with them was not named. Lee named him: Harvey Logan.
    --Currie in fact went to Utah, and was spoken to by Isom Dart, and later killed there by Sheriff Tyler.

  • Butch
    July 20, 2009 12:19 p.m.


    1.) Do you know the date, place, and Court from which the indictment of Longabauagh and Parker was issued? I agree, if such an indictment was issued the running of the SOL would be stopped. I'd like to know more about the indictment for several reasons. First, we might learn something more from looking at the indictment, and if possible, the court file from the court issuing the indictment. Second, it would be useful to know why the reward circulars don't mention the indictment. Third, it would be useful to know why the Pinkertons, on behalf of the ABA, didn't follow up on the 1908 sightings in Wyoming. I sure would appreciate any information you can supply regarding the indictment of Butch and Harry for Winnemucca.

    2.) Neither Butch nor Harry needed to be accused of Hazen's murder to have a Wyoming case brought against them. Mere participation in the Wilcox or Tipton robberies would have been sufficient. I agree that murder does not have an SOL in any jurisdiction of which I am aware. In this case, that is immaterial. Wyoming doesn't have an SOL. Period.

    Coninued ....

  • Driftwood
    July 20, 2009 11:19 a.m.

    Did Sundance return from Argentina after he made the March 23, 1901 bank deposit? This newspaper article of the time confirms he did.

    Anaconda Standard.
    July 14,1901

    “How the train was robbed near Wagner” (July 3, 1901)

    ……. Longabaugh has been a friend of the Curry family……… In recent weeks he appeared in Malta and has not tried very hard to escape recognition.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 20, 2009 11:00 a.m.

    Re: "walking streets" and Statutes of Limitation.

    In 1902 the Protective Committee of the American Bankers Association reported that Parker and Longabaugh had been indicted for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The indictment stopped the running of any statute of limitations and both Parker and Longabaugh would have been subject to arrest and extradition to Nevada. Also, there is no statute of limitations for murder. Sheriff Hazen was murdered in Wyoming. All who participated would have been subject to being indicted for his homicide.

  • Butch
    July 19, 2009 4:01 p.m.


    I'm right with you on the Bliss/Buffalo photo. I'd sure like more discussion of it. As far as "photo shopping" the Bliss logo onto the frame, of that I'm not so sure. The Bliss/Buffalo version referred to so far is from a scan from the Library of Congress, which, in my opinion, argues against "photo shopping" manipulation.

    I don't know if this is any help, but the two documents scanned right after the Bliss/Buffalo photo were pages 1 and 2 of the SA circular using issolations from the photo for Harry and alias Ethel Place. The three scans are sandwiched between extraneous documents not from the Pinkerton files.

    Again, I don't know if this helps but William decreed that the "DeYong" (Bliss/Buffalo?) photo not be put in the Pinkerton Gallery, but placed in Longabaugh's Criminal History. Because alias Ethel Place wasn't wanted for a crime? Harboring a fugative?

    Its a real bang your head against a brick wall mystery, ain't it? Let's hope some of our fellow contributors to the blog can help us out.

  • Butch
    July 19, 2009 3:30 p.m.

    3.) On November 14, 1904, Reward Circular No. 3 was issued and gave the same information and the same wants for both Butch and Harry as Circulars 1 and 2. There was no want for Wilcox, Tipton, or Wagner.

    4.) An undated cicular was issued in SA in 1903. That circular was identical in criminal history and wants as Reward Circulars 1, 2, and 3.

    So where did the idea that Butch and Harry were wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, or Wagner come from? Why it came from the "experts" of course, chiefly Kirby, Ernst, and Kelly. Precious little that these three story tellers have to say ever bears up on close examination of the base documents.

    No, what I blogged is absolutely accurate. In 1908 Butch and Harry could walk the streets of Rawlins or Baggs, Dixon, Savery, or Slater without fear. The SOL on Winnemucca had tolled (as had Montana's for Malta and Wagner) and neither man was wanted for Tipton or Wilcox. You can read the frustration in the correspondence between Hadsell, Pinkertons, and various express companies. It isn't pretty --but I think its wonderfully amusing.

  • Butch
    July 19, 2009 3:17 p.m.

    Just A Comment:

    1.) On May 15, 1901 Pinkertons issued Reward Circular No 1 for Butch and Harry. In that reward circular:

    Harry Longabaugh was wanted for Winnemucca, the 1892 Malta, Montana, robbery of the Great Northern with Bill Madden and Harry Bass, the Belle Fourche bank job, and breaking jail at Deadwood. The reward circular detailed his incarceration at Sundance. There was no want for Harry for Wilcox or Tipton, and by May 15, 1901 the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined Longabaugh had not taken part. That never changed. Ever.

    Butch was wanted for Winnemucca. His criminal history was given as incarceration at Laramie between July 15, 1894 and January 19, 1896. There was no want for Butch for either Wilcox or Tipton. As in the case of Longabaugh,the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined that Butch wasn't involved in either train robbery.

    2.) On January 24, 1902, Reward Circular No. 2 was issued and detailed the identical wants and history as Reward Circular No. 1. Neither was wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, --or Wagner for that matter.

    Continued .....

  • Just a Comment
    July 19, 2009 6:21 a.m.

    Butch- Evidently you are not aware that the authorities were quite certain that Harry Longabaugh was one of the Wilcox train robbers and that Butch Cassidy was also suspected of participation in both this robbery and the robbery of the UP at Tipton over a year later. These offenses occurred in Wyoming, therefore no SOL would have applied.

  • Anonymous
    July 18, 2009 9:34 p.m.

    In the “The Gunfighters” of the Time/life series on page 93 is large photo of Sundance and Etta. There IS NOT a Buffalo stamp. This book was published in 1977. I suspect someone has done some computer handiwork and added the Buffalo stamp with this latest discovered photo.

  • Butch
    July 18, 2009 6:24 p.m.


    The applicable SOL depends on where you commit the crime and what kind of crime you commit. However, that said, never commit a crime --misdemeanor, gross misdemeanor, or felony -- in Wyoming. Dating from the days of Territorial status right up to the present time, there is no SOL in Wyoming for anything. One pan fish over the limit and those Wyoming cowboys can track you, arrest you, convict you and incarcerate you 100 years or more after you gut and gilled the fish.

    Fortunately for Butch and Harry, the last crime they were wanted for was the Winnemucca Bank job -- not Wagner. Nevada is a lot more "civilized" than Wy and, at the time had a 6 year SOL for felonies like robbing a bank. So what would you expect from a state that is home to both the Bunny Ranch and Harry Reed?

    Yep, Butch and Harry were free to show up in 1908, walk around Rawlins and Litle Snake and tip their Stetsons to Frank Hadsell. No problem. The SOL had tolled.

  • GUE
    July 18, 2009 12:43 p.m.

    A quick question. Does anyone know how long did the statute of limitations lasted on crimes at this time? If the last alleged crime for Butch Cassidy on American soil was at Wagner, Montana in 1901, when would he have been no longer a wanted man? Did the different states have different statutes?

    Any information greatly appreciated.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 18, 2009 10:12 a.m.

    Re: Names used for purchase of Tiffany Watch.

    In March, Dan Buck wrote “In 1992, Tiffany & Co. informed me that their records indicate that on February 4, 1901, James Ryan, living at 234 East 12th Street, bought a watch, serial number 68210/1685, for $40.10. Also, Tiffany informed a colleague that on June 25, 1902, H.A. Place, no address given, bought a watch, serial number 2590-1128643, for $15.35.

    ”The dates of those purchases, by the way, coincide with what we know from other sources, e.g., Pinkerton and Argentine archives, about BC and SK's movements.”

    Tartan Cowboy:

    The "Holes" of Northern Colorado, Western Wyoming, and Mogollon Country of Western New Mexico were indeed desolate and isolated making Scotland seem in comparisom almost as crowded modern-day England. The distances are large, from Brown's Hole to Alma is almost the distance from South Hampton to John O'Groats, a distance I recently drove, but few towns, and making John O'Groats almost seem like a

    My take: Sundance and Butch died in South America.
    Whether at San Vicente or elsewhere is the question, but we all love mysteries. Solved mysteries are less interesting.

  • Driftwood
    July 18, 2009 8:55 a.m.

    The Tiffany Co. charges five hundred dollars for a search of their records. They sold many watches in 1901 but they do not have record of Butch purchasing any watch. The records do not mention Butch Cassidy, Robert Parker or James Ryan. Making the clam that one of the watches was purchased by Butch Cassidy is opinion not documented fact.

  • Driftwood
    July 15, 2009 7:00 p.m.

    What name did Butch use when he purchased the Tiffany watch for Etta? Was it Bob Parker, Jack Ryan or Butch Cassidy?

  • Driftwood
    July 15, 2009 5:59 p.m.

    The application for land was in 1902. Except for the unsubstantiated Gaririti documents are there any American documents that show Butch went to Argentina in 1901? Are there any American documents that show Sundance stayed in Buenos Aires longer than making the Bank deposit in 1901?

  • Drifwood
    July 15, 2009 5:45 p.m.

    The Pinkerton memo that states Sundance was at the Buffalo Hospital the summer of 1901 is a Philadelphia Memo. Are the Philadelphia memos reliable?

  • Driftwood
    July 15, 2009 5:38 p.m.

    Marcelo Gavirati’s book includes all of the Argintina sources. On page 15 it states they got to the Terretory 1902. Why would they purchase livestock in 1901 if they were not to the territory until 1902?

  • tartan cowboy
    July 15, 2009 2:50 p.m.

    As regard the deyoung photo didn'nt Harry send a copy to david gillespie,statingthat this was his new wife?
    Horse creek cowbow:
    The highlands of Scotland are very desolate indeed it must have been very harsh the conditions the guys had to put up with.
    I'm very new to all this : as i'm sure you know. what is your perspective on what happened to BC/SK ?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 15, 2009 1:03 p.m.


    Last march the subject of the accuracy or lack thereof of the Pinkerton files was endlessly debated. The Pinkerton files make a good starting point for further research, but to a great extent are to borrow someone elses' phrase are "the sweepings of the bowels of an attic." Generally speaking, the New York files are better than the Denver files which lovingly repeat every item of gossip and rumor which came to their attention. The information as to bank deposits, brand registration, and application for land in Chubut fairly well establish that Butch, Sundance, and Ethel were in Argentina in late 1901. The name of the ship upon which they sailed and the date thereof is apparently based upon circumstantial evidence based on, among other things, the date of the purchase of the watch.

    With regard to the DeYoung photo, I cannot picture Sundance and Ethel carrying the photo around with them down to Argentina, back to New York, and up to Buffalo to have an additional copy made. The Pinkertons did trace Sundance and Ethel to Dr. Pierce's. My assumption is they got a copy in Buffalo and had additonal copies made at DeYoung's.

  • Kid Charter
    July 15, 2009 12:39 p.m.

    The question then becomes whether the photograph was taken at Bliss Bros. on a visit to Dr. Pierce's Hospital, in Buffalo, New York. Then later Longabaugh decided to have copies made at the DeYoung studio, in New York City, that might explain the DeYoung frame, without the studio stamp, Longabaugh then mailed copies of the photograph with the DeYoung frame to friends, then again, perhaps the Pinkerton detective had copies made at DeYoung’s??

  • Driftwood
    July 13, 2009 7:28 p.m.

    Are the Argentina documents more accurate than the Pinkerton files?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    July 13, 2009 5:24 a.m.

    Kid Charter:

    With regard to whether the photo of Sundance and Ethel was taken by DeYoung Studios, look at photo posted on the Wikipidia article on "Etta Place." It is in original pasteboard frame clearly marked "Bliss Bros." 358 Main, Buffalo. Bliss Bros. were in business in Buffalo New York in the late 19th Century and early 20th Century. That would indicate that the photo may have been taken on a visit to Dr. Pierce's Hospital. It doesn't change anything relating to the original issue of 1901 vs 1902 in Argentina, since the most accurate information relies on Argentine sources rather than New York sources (other than the purchase of the Tiffany watch.

  • tartan cowboy
    July 9, 2009 1:14 p.m.

    I got the Kirby book on Amazon for around 3 pounds.It's worth keeping an eye out,i waited for a while.

  • kobalt
    July 9, 2009 1:02 p.m.

    WOW!! Seeing the lack of diplomacy and maturity in these blogs, as well as the religious intolerance, really affects the credibility of the comments for me. How about understanding something before buying into the hype and perpetuating it? let's grow up people!

  • GUE
    July 9, 2009 12:42 p.m.

    Just a thought:
    That's a great idea. Didn't even think of that.

    Tartan Cowboy:
    I'm also fascinated with the visuals. Putting a face to the exploits seems to add real life to what I've read. and I think it was Butch (or someone else) who mentioned the politics of "verifying photos" (so that they fit certain "he came back" theories), which is a little frustrating. For example, I can't find a copy of the photos in Kirby's book anywhere! These collectible books are a little pricey.

    If you're interested in potentially verifiable photos, I saw one online at a site called "Liveauction.com" a couple weeks back--supposedly given from Lula Betenson to a friend in 1957. the site claims the shot was taken in Robber's Roost in 1897 or '98. Same large jawline and similar growth patterns in the moustache, but I'm just not sure ...

    Anyway, I'm off to call Anne Charter. Thanks again, just a thought.

  • Tartan cowboy
    July 9, 2009 1:32 a.m.

    I've now got a copy of the Charter book,thanks to Bob.I can't say there is a very strong likeness with butch in my opinion.The two purported photos in Ed KIrbys book are more of a likeness.What you think?
    Someone also blogged about the likeness between Ethel and another photo in the Charter book,i think he was refering to Maud Charter.
    I have a particular interest in photographs it feeds the artistic side of me.therfor when looking at a photograph it's with the(frustrated) artists eye that ilook at them.It's worth remembering that it is amazing when we have two or more authenticated photos of one person just how unlike each other they can be.Age,angle,shadowand weight all make a difference.

  • Just a thought
    July 8, 2009 5:56 p.m.

    GUE- Why don't you call Anne up. She is in the Billings phone book.

  • GUE
    July 8, 2009 4:04 p.m.

    Kid Charter:

    That's interesting. (Your information on the Bulldog Saloon photo was also very helpful.)

    What do you know about the photo of Butch and Bert Charter on page 57 in Anne Charter's Cowboys Don't Walk? Do you think it's authentic? Do you know if there are any online sites with this picture?

  • test
    July 8, 2009 3:28 p.m.

    seriously, does this work?

  • Kid Charter
    July 8, 2009 3:07 p.m.

    There are only two known copies of the original photograph of Harry Longabaugh and Etta (Ethel) Place, supposedly taken at the DeYoung Studio, in New York City. One was in the possession of the Pinkerton detective agency and the other in the possession of Jano Magor, now in the possession of a Magor descendant. The question is, was the original photograph taken at the DeYoung studio, or was the DeYoung studio used to make additional copies of the original photograph?

  • GUE
    July 8, 2009 12:47 p.m.


    Wasn't there an alleged photograph of Butch in New York City sometime in 1902 or 1908? I can't seem to locate the prior comments about this on the blog.

  • "Horse CreekCowboy
    July 8, 2009 5:32 a.m.

    Tartan Cowboy:

    Slater is across the Colorado line from Baggs, Dixon and Savery,Wyoming where the Wild Bunch celebrated successful holdups which they pulled off in southern Wyoming. Walden is in northern Colorado west of Ft. Collins and to the southeast of Slater.
    The Wild Bunch was an outgrowth of the Powder Springs Gang which used to hide out to the west of Slater. Slater, Baggs, etc. were extemely isolated and made an ideal place to hold such celebrations.

    The area to the south of Baggs is very reminenscent of the Highlands of Scotland and about as isolated.

  • Kid Montana
    July 6, 2009 6:45 a.m.

    tartan cowboy,

    1: McIntosh's store, Slater, Colorado

    2: by train from Wolcott, Colorado, with BC

    shoes and clothes, no idea.

  • Local Yokel
    July 6, 2009 5:12 a.m.

    1.) MacIntosh store in Slater, Colorado.
    2.) Took the train at Walden, Colorado. Ft. Worth was a place they hung out and partied. Read Selcer's "Hell's Half Acre." They had plenty of money they just robbed a bank and train. They needed this type of clothes to run around down south and back east. Probably some of them just forgot to get new shoes. Or----maybe the haul from Tipton was more than from Winnemucca. LY

  • tartan cowboy
    July 5, 2009 8:14 a.m.

    Haven't been able to access the blog for a few days.So a belated happy independence day to all you guys and gals out there.
    More dumb questions:
    1: re sundances declaration of barely having enough money for lodgings to David gillespie,where was Gillespie situated?
    2: How did SK travel to fort worth from here 21 days later.?
    The shoes question is interesting.Was it a case that the photograph was then planned by someone and that the five were told to hightail it to FW as soon as possible? if so were the suits rented or borrowed for the occasion,but shoes/boots more difficult to borrow?Perhaps that is a bit fanciful as the suits do seem too good a fit to be off the peg.
    Anyone have any thoughts on this?

  • Gaylen Robison
    July 8, 2009 9:15 a.m.

    Back to square one. The only issue here is the claim that William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah is really Harry Alonzo Longabaugh the Sundance Kid. There are many evidences that support our claim. Here is one clue that supports the evidence: Grandpa Long had a picture of his two sisters that hung on the wall in their home. The names of his sisters are Samanna and Emma. The photo of Sundance with the Wild Bunch matches a photo of grandpa Long. Some coincidence.
    If they are not the same man like the doubter's claim, why do the two men have the same sisters? That's even more of a coincidence. More yet: Grandpa Long's first daughter's name is Viola. Samanna's daughter's name is also Viola. Viola's daughter's name is Elva. She is my mother. Samanna's other daughter is Elva also. That's a fact! Now maybe all you old west historians can disprove this. But please, stop changing the subject. Good luck.

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2009 6:50 a.m.

    That could very well be the reason for what Mr. Longabaugh has on his feet. Really more interested in what Cassidy has on. Apparently he is wearing his every day boots, where the other (visible) two are not? Wonder why?

  • Butch
    June 30, 2009 6:16 a.m.


    My opinion is that Harry's shabby footwear is consistent with his declaration to David Gillespie on or about November 1, 1900, that he was substantially broke, not having enough money to both repay the loan from Gillespie and afford a nights lodging at McIntosh's Slater complex. The Fort Worth Five photograph was taken approximately 21 days after the Slater meeting with Gillespie.

    However, in the DeYoung Photograph, Harry has shined, possibly new, lace-up footwear. That is consistent with the thought that when "Ethel" is "in the picture" so to speak, Harry's life style takes a decided turn upward. The DeYoung photograph was taken between February 1 and February 19, 1901.

    My opinion, of course, is by no means "proof" of anything. I submit, however, my opinion is consistent with what we know, or think we know, about Harry's changing fortunes, and his willingness to be photographed after his October, 1897, refusal to be photographed.

    Good question, thanks for asking it. We might get different opinions from others. Like you, I'm very interested in the topic.

  • Anonymous
    June 29, 2009 6:20 p.m.

    Someone mentioned the different conditions of the footwear of the three gentlemen in the front row of the Ft. Worth picture. I also think that is interesting, with all the talent displayed here, someone should have an answer. At least an opinion.

    Thank you.

    A Question

  • Butch
    June 28, 2009 2:41 p.m.


    That's the ticket. I think you've got great suggestions as starting points. Perhaps you can get Mr Buck interested in the project. I'll see what I can do about getting the "It isn't Harvey" argument down on paper. Of course, I feel obligated to give the argument and supporting data for my candidate in the grave. You might want to do the same on your research. We might very well generate some interest on the part of local newspapers --Deseret News?-- in serializing the debate, our respective articles, and our progress in getting the project off the ground.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 28, 2009 2:24 p.m.


    A good starting place then will be the Garfield County Historic Society. Perhaps KUED who produced a program on the Outlaw Trail. Gave equal time to both sides of the Butch controvery. Even Dan with his connections might be interested.

    I will be out of country again for part of September, but like Butch I will return.

  • Butch
    June 28, 2009 2:01 p.m.


    You're welcome. In this Wild Bunch thing, a man needs as many partners as he can get. I've got confidence that between the two of us and with the help of our pals on this blog and elsewhere, we can gin up enough interest to have CHS back our play. Several Colleges and Universities in CO have some wonderful archeology departments that should have an interest in the project. In addition to that, in these tough economic times, I expect the small Colorado towns involved could use a few extra dollars the project should generate. Why not invite CO film schools to film the dig and have the students bring the background story to life? Why not get local museum's involved? If there is enough public interest and if we can make a case that CO will benefit economically, it is better than an even money bet a CO politician will get behind our project. When that happens, the improbable becomes a done deal. In fact, I'll wager my Chrysler shares the Government just bought me that we can get this done. The same arguments ought to apply to Big Sky Country.

  • An observation
    June 28, 2009 1:27 p.m.

    "Mr Anonymous needs to read Frothingham's "Temple of Virtue" beginning at page 138 where he writes:
    "Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare."

    Maybe HCC, Mr. Annonymous simply believes in standing up for what is right. In today's world, we may wish we had more of his attitude.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 28, 2009 1:12 p.m.


    Thank you for the offer. Just one minor glitch. Have you checked with the Colorado Historic Society? Under Section 24-80-401 et seq. of the Colorado Revised Statutes, excavation will require a permit from the Society. The qualifications are set forth in Section 24-80-406. I doubt that either of us qualify. Until a permit is obtain, we are spitting into the wind.

    Mr Anonymous needs to read Frothingham's "Temple of Virtue" beginning at page 138 where he writes:
    "Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare." He continues with a discussion of the great thinkers of history on the subject.

  • Anonymous
    June 28, 2009 7:29 a.m.

    "I take it that a "Compleatist" is complete in his presentation of all relevant material on any issue, and if so, then we ought to assume that Mr. Buck, the Compleatist, has either made a compleat presentation of the San Vicente issue or completely screwed it up. Which do you think the Compleatist did?"

    To be brief, he "did" prove he did not know what he was talking about and since his "did dug" all his efforts have been generated in trying to prove (even though he was "dead" wrong) that he was right and all remaining energy is used to show how the rest of the world is wrong. Any energies that might be left over, of course are used to scare away or insult any member of an outlaw's family. (they might show where Mr. Buck is less than accurate and truthfull)

    If you can't whip em, and they won't let you join em, then the only path left is to run em down with insults.

    1 of many anoniemice

  • Butch
    June 28, 2009 6:23 a.m.


    Since we've been challenged to be fair and respectful to Mr. Buck, would you consider refering to him by his self-proclaimed title of "Completist"? Meadows, Digging, Page 260. My spell check puts a squiggley red line under that word, but it must be legitimate since Ms Meadows got it in print as applied to Mr Buck so it simply must be a real word.

    I take it that a "Compleatist" is complete in his presentation of all relevant material on any issue, and if so, then we ought to assume that Mr. Buck, the Compleatist, has either made a compleat presentation of the San Vicente issue or completely screwed it up. Which do you think the Compleatist did?

  • Butch
    June 28, 2009 6:04 a.m.


    The only value that the Bureau of Identification's belief that Logan survived 1904 has is that it's refusal to believe Harvey died can be added to Pinkertons. The question at issue is whether Harvey died in 1904 after the Parachute/Rifle robbery, not whether he went to SA or was or was not Gold Teeth Duffy.

    This particular type of non-debate debate technique is called "deflection" and attempts to draw the jury's attention away from the issue and onto extraneous and irrelevant material. I suggest you stop trying to divert attention from the issue and take the issue head on.

    Now, I've called you out on this issue, suggested that we partner up on getting a couple of sets of human remains above ground, and do a DNA two step. I don't know what you call an offer of partnership in your neck of the woods, but in mine the offer of partnership is considered a great compliment, and an acknowledgement that the partner is a person of quality and great worth. What exactly is your problem? Squemish? O. K. Don't look. I will.

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 11:34 p.m.

    Darn it HCC, just when we were starting to get some enjoyment from this, you have to come along and try to dig up Dan Buck. Now we have two that we really don't have any need for, Mr. Zimmer and Mr. Buck.

    If it isn't broken, don't try and fix it.

    "If Charlie Siringo is unreliable why does Mr. Buck refer to Siringo as Pinkertons ace detective." Was just asked.....Probably for the same reason he refers to himself, as "The Foremost Authority".

    Shall we carry on?

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 10:17 p.m.

    If Charlie Siringo is unreliable why does Mr. Buck refer to Siringo as Pinkertons ace detective.

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 10:04 p.m.

    Just my opinion, but it appears Mr. Buck uses Saul Alinskys Rules For Radicals. Instead of respectfully discussing the subject with those he disagrees with, he ridicules them. I for one would like to see Mr. Buck join the discussion. Surely by now he understands that no one will tolerate his insults.

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 9:35 p.m.

    Mr. Buck charges those that do not agree with his analysis of certain photographs of having the vision of Mr. Magoo. Do you consider the Magoo comparison insulting?

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 9:10 p.m.

    "I don't know how it is in Utah, but in Wyoming Western Hospitality does not include gratuitous insults." Mr. HCC says..........

    As I believe Mr. Buck resides in Washington D C, maybe he should consider moving to your Wyoming, you then could teach him some courtesy.


  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 8:41 p.m.

    "The constant, unrelenting, vacuous attacks upon Mr. Buck are wearisome."

    Is it possible Mr. HCC, that Mr. Buck has brought your above mentioned comments upon himself by what he says to those that choose to not agree with him? There are numerous other so-called historians that do not receive comments like what you describe. Ever wonder why? Is he getting some of his own medicine?

    The comments may not be as vacuous as you imply and could possibly be most fitting and well deserved.

    Another opinion.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 27, 2009 7:55 p.m.


    in April there was fully discussed the question of the reliability of Charlie Siringo.

    You have cited the National Bureau of Identification as proof that Curry was alive and well after Parachute. The Bureau in 1910 indicated that Curry is "suppoed to be a member of a band that operated extensively in Argentina for four years." See Washinton Herald p. 12, 1910. In my search for Logan, I have gone through almost all national newspapers for the period 1903 to 1910. The Washington Herald item is the only article I could find that suggested that Logan was still alive. All other national newspapers concluded that Curry committed suicide at Parachute. If Logan was in Argentina, where does that leave your sightings? Sightings are not reliable. Dan has noted the widely reported "sighting" of Ringo Star at the Tradewinds Saloon in St. Augustine, Fl. Elvis is routinely seen.

    In April, before I left for Orkney for the month, we all agreed not to be so insulting. I don't know how it is in Utah, but in Wyoming Western Hospitality does not include gratuitous insults. The constant, unrelenting, vacuous attacks upon Mr. Buck are wearisome.

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 5:33 p.m.

    Speaking of pictures, I have always been fascinated by the appearance of the foot attire worn by Sundance, Ben and Butch in the Ft. Worth picture. I am sure a younger, smarter brain has already answered this but... Sundance appears to be wearing a pair of laceup, dress shoes, that appear to be in terrible shape. Unshined and badly scuffed. Ben is wearing similiar shoes, but they look new and very shiny. Old Butch looks as though he just rode in. He has normal, very used looking, squared toe western (cowboy) boots on. Can't see the feet of Carver or Logan. Can see the "pinky" ring on Carver's left hand, and the flower in Logan's lapel. Makes me think they all did not arrive on the same bus.


  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 5:09 p.m.

    TC, an e/m was sent to you a few hours ago.

    Sadly I have nothing of value to add to the Annalee Thayn comments. A few years ago I sent her information to a friend in Casper, Wyoming, who has a wealth of information on these subjects. One of his replies, I believe mentioned how the Thayn/Thayne names were very common in that area and they go back a long time. I am sure I put his comments away so I would know exactly where they were. I am afraid I may have put them with the "Utah coin" that I recall someone mentioning a little earlier. If I stumble onto them, I will gladly share.


  • tartan cowboy
    June 27, 2009 4:10 p.m.

    re the trips back and forth from SA was the transport that SK/ep took more luxurious than the H/N/N safety routes? if not then i whole heartedly agree that the mode of transport is highly suspicious. if not then maybe the reasons for returning are of a more personal nature.Didn't the pinkertons think that ethel had relatives in Texas?
    RE the fort worth photograph.I can understand the theory of SK being coeeced into the photo for establishing red herring duty, but what of the others? we know BC image was already out there from the laramie mug shot. How did he persuade the other three to have their photo taken? where their photos already in circulation?
    There was also some talk of harry being a "lunger how accurate is this?
    I have contacted Jerry nickle and hope to have your And Bob's email address soon.

  • Butch
    June 27, 2009 12:58 p.m.


    When I looked for "Anna Marie Thayne" the only people I could find showing up in census or phone books were either in SLC, 1941, and following, California, 1938, or Scotland, 1891. It certainly is possible that Anna Marie Thane was out of the country prior to 1938 and that is the reason no census or directory picked her up. The problem I have with that is we don't have any evidence that Harry, Jr. was out of the country before 1938, when he would have been approximately 37 years old. Each of the women I just listed appear to be single so.... Any thoughts on this?

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 11:54 a.m.

    Daniel Sinclair and Ann Campbell had 11 children among the children were 2 daughters: Annabella and Jane

    Jane Campbell married Robert Gillies and had a daughter named Annie

    Annie married Maximillian Parker and had a son named Robert LeRoy Parker a.k.a. Butch Cassidy.

    Annabella Campbell married John Mcfarlane they had a son named John Menzies Mcfarlane

    John Menzies McFarlane married Agnes E. Heyborne they had a daughter named Sarah Ann Mcfarlane

    Sarah Ann Mcfarlane married Henry George Mathis they had a son named Murray Mathis

    Murray Mathis married Helen Neilsen they had a daughter named Ann Mathis

    Ann Mathis married Lee Thayn they had a daughter named Annalee

    A few comments ago, someone had comments or a question about a name. I finally understood the bell I heard ringing. I met Annalee in Green River, Utah. She works at the Johb Wesley Powell Museum there. At our first meeting, she mentioned she was a relative of Butch Cassidy. Of course we did have a doubt or two. A few weeks after returning home, she was kind enough to send the above. Hopefully to some, it will be of interest.

    Bob Jayne

  • Anonymous
    June 27, 2009 10:21 a.m.

    Dont you guys go in the back room and carry on this discussion. Have the discussion here so the rest of can benefit.

  • Butch
    June 27, 2009 9:58 a.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy:

    Your statement that we don't hear from Harvey after 1904 is valid only if you discount Siringo's account of chasing Harvey after a 1908 NM bank job, and only if you discount the receipt of the letter from Jim Ferguson. I, for one am unwilling to do either.

    The new reason you offered for William's reluctance to accept the Knoxville identifications-- because the identification was in doubt-- is a tautology exactly the same as Mr. Buck saying after the San Vicente fiasco: "I guess we dug in the wrong spot."
    The youth of today have an expression that I believe applies to your statement as well as that of Mr. Buck: "Duh!"

    How about a friendly wager of T-bone steaks grilled in the most Green offensive manner we can devise (charcoal?) that DNA comparisons show:

    1) It isn't Harvey

    2) It is a man with the last name of Logan

    Because Mr Buck and Ms Meadows really ought to be in attendance, we can provide Tofu, Alfalfa Sprouts and Soy Milk if they wish. Western Hospitality for D. C. denizens?

  • Butch
    June 27, 2009 9:25 a.m.


    I haven't found a thing on Anna Marie Thayne or Hazel Tyron, and if they ever existed I expect it was only in Harry, Jr's alcohol enveloped wet brain. I think if you track Harry Jr what you will find is that his real Mama, whom he never knew, farmed the infant out to distant relatives to raise, Mama being seriously underage. I think you will find that Harry, Jr spent the rest of his life looking for Mama.

    The people who raised Harry, Jr. had some knowledge of Harry Sr and better knowledge of Mama, of course.
    Again, we can remove all doubt. Sharpen your shovel, convince Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows to join the posse, and let's dig up Harry , Jr and compare his DNA to Longabaugh's. More Redemption for having botched San Vicente so badly. Mr Buck, weilding a shovel for the second time, will have begun to acquire the basics of a skill more suited to his accumen than researcher --Ditch Digger -- a noble, albeit under-appreciated profession perfectly suited to Mr Buck's limited abilities.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 27, 2009 8:27 a.m.

    Re: Folowup on Logan:

    I don't know that the Pinkerton's position was that it wasn't Logan. Pinkerton in his report to the Bankers did indicate that the body had been identified as Logan, but he had doubts. I do not suggest that Pinkerton expressed doubt merely to stiff the posse of their just due. Since there was doubt, it would be more than embarrassing to identify the body as Logan, pay the rewards and two weeks later to have another train robbery with the same M.O. Mr. Harriman would be unhappy.

    Circumstantial evidence also points to the body being Logan. The train robbers (as are all criminals) are creatures of habit. They go back to their wicked ways. Witness Ben Kilpatrick. We simply do not hear from Harvey again (unless he was Duffy).

    How long to get court orders in Garfield County and obtain Logan DNA. If it was another Logan, DNA might be inconclusive. If another, who?

  • tartan cowboy
    June 27, 2009 5:10 a.m.

    thankyou so very much for your kind offer i believe i will try and take you up on that.If i can find jerry's web site i'll try and contact yourself and Butch.Again i wasn't suggesting you were by any way blowing your own trumpet,i was making a statement.I believe credit where it's due.If you "oldies" are as long in the tooth as you say an approaching middle aged pilgrim like myself can only benefit from your wisdom.Some cultures look upon their elders as being sagely.As it should be.
    Harry jr said,according to the Kirby book,was a school teacher named Anna Marie thayne and that Etta was in factHazel Tryon.Has yor research flagged anything on these names?Given that he,Harry junior,came out in 1970,a year after the movie,it seems a bit convenient that he says she was a school teacher.Or maybe the movie hit on at least some of the legend.He also seems to have some fanciful ideas like his father killing 28 men,holding caches of guns for them and a pallbearer at BC funeral.

  • TM
    June 26, 2009 6:16 p.m.

    A comment to all...I'm still here and enjoying everyone's contributions. I continue to be amazed by all the related stories and the mysteries. My thanks to all that share. More Please!

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 5:22 p.m.


    I urge you to follow up on Bob's suggestion to contact Jerry. Jerry has all our addresses. I'm not sure you want to join this gang. We're all really disreputable --and old. Golly are we old.

  • Anonymous
    June 26, 2009 5:14 p.m.

    We need some more pictures to compare. For those that are fortunate enough to have ANNE GODDARD CHARTER'S book COWBOYS DON'T WALK, look on page 56, low right hand corner. With all due respect, is that a picture of Etta, without make up? Both are lovely ladies. And the "watch", what do you say?

  • Anonymous
    June 26, 2009 5:12 p.m.


  • jimlyn
    June 26, 2009 5:11 p.m.

    I responded to your blog, but it never saw the light of day ao if you will email me, I'll try to fill in the blanks.lynchjl@yahoo.com

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 5:06 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy:

    Yes, you've correctly stated the argument of those who think Harvey Logan was the dead robber --the Pinkertons sided with their railroad clients to avoid having the railroads pay the reward. The fact remains that into 1910 and right up to the present the Agency's official position is it isn't Harvey. I think William was right in 1904. It ain't Harvey.

    William was struck by the similarity of the photos of the corpse to the image of Harvey Logan. I believe there is a very good explanation for the similarity of the likeness between the corpse and Harvey Logan: The dead robber was a Logan, just not Harvey Logan.

    DNA will tell us for sure. Now if you're willing to man a shovel with me, maybe we can talk Mr. Buck out of his D. C. Townhouse and into doing an honest days work in CO. I'm sure he'd enjoy the change of pace. Even Mr. Buck can't screw this one up. If its Harvey we have a great story. Same thing if it isn't him. Redemption for San Vicente?

  • Anonymous
    June 26, 2009 5:00 p.m.

    The 1910 photo of Butch on horseback in mexico,is this the one in the kirby book? The anne charter book i tried to buy online last week,but for some reason it couldn't be shipped to the uk.I would realy like to see the photo.Can it be viewed anywhere else?

    Mr. TC. I have two new copies of COWBOYS DON'T WALK, by Mrs. Charter. If you can get me your address, I will be glad to mail you one. Not sure how you wish to do that. If Jerry Nickle still has his website up, possibly you can contact him and he knows how to reach me. Again, just trying to help.

    Bob Jayne

  • Anonymous
    June 26, 2009 4:52 p.m.

    Can anyone tell me how to pronounce Duchesne?

    I believe it is close to .... Du Shane

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 4:48 p.m.


    1.)Yes, I believe we are talking about the same photo of Butch on horseback.

    2.) I don't know if Anne Goddard Charter's photo has been published elsewhere. I haven't seen it elsewhere, as far as I can remember.

    3.) If you think, as I do, that there was Ethel Place I and Etta Place II, that Ethel Place I was the Harry The Red Herring phony love interest and Etta Place II was the real deal, then, Harry Jr might just be the real deal. Ms Ernst believes there is a strong family resemblance. Pearl Baker believed Harry Jr knew things that only an insider at Robbers Roost would know. Once again, I'll tip my Stetson to the ladies.

    4.) Yep, it's Butch the Mona Lisa for sure. Grinin' like a split overshoe, ain't he?

    5.) I think I said "four" code, or at least meant to. O. K. The Key To Rebecca. Comprende?

  • tartan cowboy
    June 26, 2009 4:14 p.m.

    Can anyone tell me how to pronounce Duchesne?

  • tartan cowboy
    June 26, 2009 4:06 p.m.

    The 1910 photo of Butch on horseback in mexico,is this the one in the kirby book? The anne charter book i tried to buy online last week,but for some reason it couldn't be shipped to the uk.I would realy like to see the photo.Can it be viewed anywhere else?
    Do you believe that the guy claiming to be Harry Longabaugh jr was the real deal?
    Is the the butch cassidy smile in the fort worth photo the most enigmatic since the mona lisa?
    You previously stated to me "are you aware of the five code if so let me know and we'll speak privately" how would this be possible?

  • tartan cowboy
    June 26, 2009 3:42 p.m.

    Apoligies if my response to you sounded if it was written with a sense of sarcasm this was not my intention.I am very pleased and thankful to more knowledgeable folk like yourself and Butch to share your research with the uninitiated like myself,and i appreciate the time you have taken to answer any of my largely uneducated questions. Once again, many thanks to you fine people across the pond for responding to a "lowland " scotsman who has more interest in you history than my own country.Mrs tartan cowboy says i was born in the wrong era.Maybe she should add the wrong continent to that statement!

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 26, 2009 2:59 p.m.

    Re: Logan

    The body was buried under the name J. H. Ross. Ross, however, was found alive and well. The body was also identified, in addition to Tap Duncan, as George W. Kendricks. After about a week, the body was placed in a cheap wooden casket, photos were taken from several different angles and body was positively identified by Denver Superinendent James McParland as Logan. That did not please William Pinkerton. Lowell Spence was sent to Colorado and the body was dug up on July 16. Present: Denver & Rio Grande agent R. Brunazi, Deputies Mohn and Crissman, Drs. Clark and McAllister. Spence identified the body as Logan. Railroad reps demurred.

    From the photos, the Knoxville sheriff's office confirmed Logan. Arguments: If body that of Logan large awards were due. If not Logan, the railroads would not have to pay. William Pinkerton certainly know on what side his bread was buttered. Not withstanding Pinkerton's speculation, no reason for Knoxville people, McParland, or Spence to lie, no award for them. Body was allegedly too far decomposed to see if scars from Lavina or the bordello robbery were present. Scars are apparently in the eyes of the beholder.

  • Anonymous
    June 26, 2009 2:20 p.m.

    As far as the latest credible sighting, I'm inclined toward 1941 simply because my opinion of State Troopers is very high and I've found Mormons to be incredibly honest, straight forward people. When a Mormon Utah State Trooper says he gave Butch Cassidy a warning ticket, I flat out believe him, no questons asked.

    It is pleasing to read this from Mr. Butch. I was fortunate to know the brother of a man who worked with the Utah Trooper you speak of. He said, Merrill (sp) never spoke anything but the truth. I have always thought this to be the most credible of all the "sighting stories". I don't believe Mr. Buck agrees.

    The gentleman I speak of, now deceased, Bob J Nielson, lived and ranched in Vernal, Utah. A highly respected individual.

    Mr. TC. Did not and will not, claim I know more than you or anyone. Just sharing some of what I believe to be an accepted fact of the "Cassidy" pictures. There are many, and much wiser than I, that also subscribe to this belief. Providing that and info on Kirby was just trying to help.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 1:53 p.m.


    I agree wholeheartedly that all purported photos ought to be looked at carefully. I also agree that, provided Butch and Harry survived SA, there ought to be a pile of photographs left to discover. Because I believe that Butch and Harry survived I believe that the present "definative" photos will be added to in quantity. My favorite for post 1908 photos are Butch on Horseback in Mexico, circa 1910.

    I base my opinion on Mrs. Betenson's published letter collection.

    For pre-1908 photos, my favorite is from Anne Goddard Charter of Butch, Standing Unknown, and Bert Charter. That one really interests me. However, I date the photo exactly one year earlier than the date given in her book. Mrs. Charter was very careful to say that the photo and it's provenance were supplied by another person. Mrs. Betenson was careful to say the same about the photo in her book. Both ladies were entirely responsible, and neither can be fairly attacked for including the photos in their respective books.

    My bet is that as soon as the San Vicente question is settled both of these photos are accepted as authentic.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 1:37 p.m.


    The only possible purpose the Fort Worth Five or DeYong photographs served, as far as I can tell, was to help mark the trail of the Red Herring to TX and NY and provide a photo of his unforgettable traveling companion for Frank Dimaio to show to the steamship companies and banks in BA. Remember, other than Mr. Buck and Ms. Meadows' contention that Ethel robbed a bank in SA, she wasn't wanted for a crime, and since Mr. Buck and Ms. Meadows don't have authority to issue arrest warrants, I expect we will just have to accept the lady as law abiding.

    I take the Cholila photos for what they appear to be: A rememberance of SA. They were never used to track the 3 amigos.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 1:18 p.m.

    Butch is easier. As far as the latest credible sighting, I'm inclined toward 1941 simply because my opinion of State Troopers is very high and I've found Mormons to be incredibly honest, straight forward people. When a Mormon Utah State Trooper says he gave Butch Cassidy a warning ticket, I flat out believe him, no questons asked.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 26, 2009 1:18 p.m.

    re photographs. I reiterate that i dont say that any unauthenticated photos are true images,but that any and all merit looking into.I agree that some photos of other outlaws are so obviously wrong that they are laughable,but when there is a resemblence further discussion may spark something.As i said I'm sure anonymous has forgotten more on this subject than i will ever find out he has my respect, i just feel intimating something is definitive is narrowing possibilities.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 1:14 p.m.


    1.) If Harry put a slug into Butch he would eliminate his diplomatic protection and the gang at Little Snake would either send him to the pen or return the favor.

    2.) I am of the opinion neither Butch nor Harry ever committed a crime anywhere in SA, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, and Peru included. If they had they would have seriously jepordized the Cattle Venture and I think the consequences would have been most unpleasant for them. It isn't a good idea for your continued good health to mess with Big Boys like Diplomats, the Department of State, J. P. Morgan, Alsop & Company, Rothschilds, et al.

    3.)Officially, the last word I have of Harry is the 1908 Pinkerton report placing him on the Little Snake with Bert Charter. From the description of his companion, I judge Elzy Lay to be with him, fresh from NM.

    However, if you buy into the Etta Place I and II theory, "The Girl He Left Behind", well then, my friend, I would point you in the direction of one Harry Longabaugh, Jr. Find his real Mama and you will know what happened to Harry post 1908.

    Continued .......

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 12:59 p.m.

    Donna Ernst has twice published that Butch and Sundance died at San Vicente and has been criticized on the basis that they were repeatedly seen alive after 1908, including Mrs. Betenson.

    Never-the-less, I believe all research is valuable if only because even wrong answers are helpful in that they eliminate eroneous possiblities. Witness the blog from jimlyn. The Ethel Place I offered as a possibility has been eliminated. 1 down and countless others to go.

    The same holds true for my Dumb Qestions. The questions are dumb all right, and therefore ought to have readily apparent answers. Those that do have answers can be eliminated from further consideration. If the answer isn't readily apparent, then perhaps we ought to look further at it.

    Unfortunately whether Ms Betenson, Ms Ernst, Ms Meadows (yikes! The ladies really are smarter than us guys!) or Mr. Buck corageously go into print, an element of the public will discount their entire effort because, in their opinion, the conclusion is wrong. That is truly unfortunate, and seriously limits the evidence available to debate or discuss a point or attempt to answer a dumb question.

    I'm happy to hear different opinions.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 26, 2009 12:56 p.m.

    Mr anonymous:
    I am well aware that there are only three "official"Butch photos,and you are seemingly saying this is definitive.History does throw out hitherto unknown gems from time to time i'm sure.if we discount any and all material because it doesn't fit with the party line then evolution on any level hits stasis.I'm sure you've forgotten more on this subject then i could ever discover and bow to your superior knowledge and therefor respectfully choose not to narrow the margins of possibility.Thankyou for your timely response.
    There's a lot going on there,need time to filter this through my not so quick mind.So post 1905 do BC/sk stay in SA together robbing payrolls and working at the concordia tine mines? Seems more likely SK would want to put a slug in his back if BC was instrumental in stealing five years of his life under house arrest!What then was the significance of the photographs of SK?Another weapon to frame him with? why the deyoung photo?What activities were they up to post 1908 and how far can you trail them into the century?

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 12:39 p.m.

    Regarding "Butch" photographs. I think Anonymous is correct about both Butch and Harry photographs. Each of the accepted ones pre-date the San Vicente November 6, 1908 shootout. Each of the accepted photographs have been "sourced" by credible means such as penitentary records, Pinkerton files, or, in the case of the Cholila photographs, their appearance in Argentina. The early photographs of Butch are questioned because they can't be sourced. The early photographs of Harry, in the possession of the Longabaugh family, are undoubtedly authentic, but probably not of much use in settling the question of whether or not Butch and Harry survived SA.

    Unless and until we can definatively determine who died at San Vicente on November 6, 1908, there will always be a cloud on any Pinkerton report or published sighting or photograph of either person that purports to be post November 6, 1908.

    The same holds true for family or direct descendant statements that Butch or Harry did or did not survive SA. Lula Parker Betenson published her recollection that she saw Butch in 1925. Her recollection has been attacked on the basis that she had to be mistaken because "Butch died at San Vicente".


  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 11:58 a.m.


    Thank you. Of course the family's wishes should be respected, and I pledge to do so. Merely for the purpose of avoiding any further intrusion on the family's privacy, I would like to know if I ought to avoid the other "Ethel Place" and "Charles Place" names in NY circa 1900 that fit the 1879-1880 and 1845-1950 birth dates? For the same purpose, can you tell me if the "Ethel Place" listed as a nurse on the 1910 census is the Ethel Place who did not become a nurse until 1911? Is this the same person? Several of the "Ethel Place" names, with appropriate birthdates appear later as married women, which would fit Ms. Ernst's discovery of "Mrs. E. Place" as opposed to an unmarried person.

    Please convey my sincere apologies to the family.

  • jimlyn
    June 26, 2009 10:47 a.m.

    The family of Ethel Place, daughter of Charles T Place, was not The Ethel Place.That family,daughter and grandaughter, would like to be left alone.BTW, she did not become a nurse until 1911.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 9:19 a.m.


    Well, I'm pretty sure. I had the help of Doug Engebretsen, author of "Empty Saddles, Forgotten Names", his wife Pat at the Belle Fourche Libray, the staff of the Adams House and Museum in Deadwood, and the staff of the South Dakota archives in Piere. What the Cherokee and I came up with were the newspaper reports of the day that, to sum up, said that O'Day was tried and acquitted (as opposed to found "Not Guilty") which so disgusted the authorities they elected not to put Punteney on trial. It makes sense since the evidence against O'Day's participation in the robbery was much stronger than for Punteney. O'Day was captured at Belle Fourche immediately after the robbery.

    By the way, I'd like to plug Doug's book. I think it is the best in print on Belle Fourche, and the history of the area running up to Miles City. Doug is one of the best investigators I know and he writes with precision, knowledge, and spell-binding prose. I think it belongs in everyone's library.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 8:54 a.m.

    Finally, Butch and Harry come full circle and show up back where they started in Carbon County in 1908. Harry is with Bert Charter, and Butch is wandering about Rawlins, unmolested. Why? The Nevada and South Dakota Statutes of Limitations have tolled, and neither man could be convicted of any crime. Neat, isn't it?

    One final thing. "Ethel" Place is transformed into "Etta Place" in 1906. Remember that Olin Emmery said that Mrs. Charter and Mary Calvert Lay knew "Etta Place" in Fort Duchesne? Was Etta Place the girl that Harry left behind and then re-united with when he was free of coercion? Was "Ethel Place" Harry The Red Herring's "leash". Do we have Etta Place I and Etta Place II?

    Parting Week-end Shot. Butch's SA alias was James P. Ryan. James P. Ryan was the Sheriff who arrested Harry in 1887 and locked him up at Sundance, WY. Was Butch Harry The Red Herring's "Jailor", a constant reminder that if he stepped out of his assigned role he would spend the rest of his natural life behind bars?

  • Anonymous
    June 26, 2009 8:50 a.m.

    "Harry had an alibi for Belle Fourche he chose to escape jail. Had he gone to trial and subpoenaed his witnesses, he would have been found not guilty as was Tom O'Day --Punteney was not brought to trial." Butch states.

    Butch are you sure of this? Some say O'Day and Punteney were both tried for the Belle Fourche robbery. They were both acquitted. Whether them not being in on the robbery had anything to do with the verdict, I don't know.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 8:43 a.m.

    5.)Once the "Mission Accomplished" flag is raised, Ethel's job is finished because the International Cattle combine can ship cattle 150 miles to Chile as opposed to 1600 miles to BA. This presupposes that Ethel is the finance representative for the combine. Evidence of this is Ms Ernst's discovery of the passenger manifest for Ms. E. Place, arriving NY from Colon on July 29, 1905, which corresponds to Harry's June 28, 1905 letter of farewell from Chile. What we know of Ethel is that she was with Harry in January, 1901, in Buffalo, at the Pierce Invalides Hotel, and subsequently in NYC between Febuary 1 and February 20, 1901. Well, there actually was an Ethel Place, born in NY state in April, 1879. That would fit the age of "Ethel Place" to a 'T'. Her father, Charles T. Place was a wealthy "Manager" of a publicly held corporation. What is more, Ethel Place was single into 1910, and was a professional nurse, which means she would have had knowledge of the Pierce Medical Clinic in her home state. Ever wonder how Harry and a Texas Hooker would have known about the high-falutin' Pierce clinic?

    Continued .............

  • Anonymous
    June 26, 2009 8:33 a.m.

    Mr. Tartan Cowboy:

    You might want to ask Ed Kirby direct about the picture you question, that is on page 107 of his Saga book. The last e/m add I had for him was (sundance2@earthlink.net) That has been a few years ago. In my last conversation with Mr. Kirby, he indicated he was getting into other areas.

    I believe you will eventually learn, as some other poster said, there are three pictures of RLP or Butch Cassidy....mug shot, Ft. Worth photo and the cabin picture in SA. Yes there are many, many other pictures that different ones claim to be Butch. There are even some who claim to know where he is buried. The number of these picture and burial site claims are roughly equal. Do you think, with the close relationship with Butch's sister Lula, that Kirby had, they might have discussed this point? Believe what you wish.

    A bit back, it was mentioned, each time something is written about history, it is changed, when of course, original reality does not.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 8:29 a.m.

    If Harry told Gillespie the truth about not being involved in robberies, and if he was truthful to his friend that he was broke, then I deduce that Harry was wrongfully "framed" for the Winnemucca Bank job. If so, I deduce that framing Harry was additional coercion to become Harry The Red Herring. His choice would be, in effect, a certain life sentence or at least a chance of getting away, if he performed his role faithfully. A limited choice is better than none at all.

    4.) It ought not matter to either the H/N/N group and their financiers if Harry leads law enforcement away from Little Sanke or not. They are in the business of robbing entire Latin American countries, penalties for which, of course, will never be paid. To that end our three amigos have the protection of vice-counsel Newberry at the entrance point to SA, and the protection of vice-counsel Aller and Charge d Affairs Benson at the exit point. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that Butch, Harry, and Ethel are traveling in some very powerful international company.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    2.) If Harry is The Red Herring on or before November 1, 1900, and if his trail begins on the Little Snake and then to TX, NY, and SA is clearly marked, I deduce that the place Harry is leading us away from is WY and CO, and that the people he is leading us away from are the cattlemen and associated gang members in those locations.

    3.)It would not be reasonable for Harry to volunteer to be the Red Herring and run the risk of apprehension and/or death. Therefore, I deduce that Harry was coerced into that role. Coercion could come from threatening to "finger" Harry for the Winnemucca bank job and refusing to alibi him for the Belle Fourche bank job. Remember that although Harry had an alibi for Belle Fourche he chose to escape jail. Had he gone to trial and subpoenaed his witnesses, he would have been found not guilty as was Tom O'Day --Punteney was not brought to trial. But then, that would have drawn attention to people at Little Snake, the locus of his alibi witnesses. This is the first instance of Little Snake men not wanting to be identified.

  • Butch
    June 26, 2009 8:01 a.m.


    You certainly asked a lot of interesting questions. I'll do my best to answer them by way of stating my opinions based upon my deductive reasoning from assumed or established facts. Please remember my use of the word "opinions".

    1.) If Harry is a Red Herring then I deduce that he was cast in that role on or before November 1, 1900 at Slater, CO, when he and Butch were at McIntosh's complex saying goodbye to Gillespie and the other Little Snake Valley men. Since "Ethel" is apparently not present, she couldn't have been one of the instigators of Harry's role as Red Herring. Then too, because Gillespie received her photograph with Harry, if "Ethel" were a local girl she would have been recognized by someone in Routt County, CO or Carbon County, WY. Therefore "Ethel" must be foreign to those parts. That would be consistent with "Ethel" showing up for the first time post Fort Worth and either in Buffalo or NYC.

    Continued .........

  • tartan cowboy
    June 26, 2009 1:36 a.m.

    Another thought.
    Surely SK was not so short on brain cell functioning that he wasn't aware that travelling back and forth so visibly was a dangerous affair.Was he then a willing participant in this madness? If so why? was he so besotted with ethel he would risk incarceration/death.Or is it not so much a case of unrequited love,but cold hard cash? Was he not such a criminal mastermind as to plan and implement his own robberies? did he need leadership?Perhaps when BC/EP put this plan to him he was only too glad to have a good steady wage coming in,but when it was over he was again destitute and looking to hook up with someone else? Was the trail then leading away from BC?How big a player was he with H/H/N?Did sk stay on in SA to carry on robbing with someone else?
    Would still like your views on the 1936 photo proposing to be BC in the kirby book.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 26, 2009 1:12 a.m.

    So what we have is BC/SK working for H/H/N group setting things up in SA? Also Ethel as the courier,presumably already connected to H/H/N?She sets in motion to find a patsy and SK fits the bill?
    She uses him to escort her back and forth from SA to U.S,not only as protection,but chiefly as a red herring to divert attention away from what? The safety routes?From a person/s? Were the photographs,SK so reluctant to have taken,driven by ethel?Was it's purpose to provide the pinkertons with an image?What was BC role in all of this?was he in on the patsy angle?After they sell up,presumably because their work is done,ethel takes a powder and goes where?Sk is pottless,where does he go next?Where does BC go next?Does he carry on his affiliation with H/H/N.Pearl baker said that Ethel spent time with BC at robbers roost.Was this patsy thing something they hatched together?
    While in New york was it SK purpose to be fairly visible while ethel carried on her duties?

  • Butch
    June 25, 2009 4:44 p.m.

    Interested Bystander:

    Thanks so much for those directions to the grave. They are so specific, I'm sure I can find it.

    I'll bet Mr Buck and Ms Meadows wished you were along when they went looking for Butch and Harry. With your help they would have at least looked on the right continent.

  • Butch
    June 25, 2009 4:37 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy:

    I sure hope you're not banking on the Gray Lady to give you your news. The fact is that William, on the 9th commented that: "Naturally, the people at Knoxville who are crooked in this matter, including the Sheriff, would try to make it appear that Logan is dead, to save their own skirts. Personally, I am inclined to believe the Knoxville identification is wrong, but it can never be decided until an examination has been made of the body."

    When the examination established the absence of a wrist wound, William's initial opinion stood --well past 1910.

    The Gray Lady correctly reported that Robert had received notice of the Knoxville identifications. He got it from William in the letter just quoted. The Times did not report William's disbelief and lack of confidence in the Knoxville identifications.

    My goodness! You don't suppose Mr Buck and Ms Meadows worked as Interns at the Times, do you? The manner of reporting half truths, incomplete facts, and manipulated facts is identical to standard NYT practice, then and now.

  • RB
    June 25, 2009 3:32 p.m.

    Some thoughts.

    Harvey showed up around Dave Picard and Vince Hayes ranch on Bridger Creek about May 21, 1904. Wounded by a shot fired by Johnson County under sheriff Beard while at Walt Punteney's place. The men were away on roundup and the women hid him in the root cellar. When the men caught word of this they came and took him by wagon about twenty miles to a cabin on Lake Creek, about fiteen miles northeast of Thermopolis. The story is that he recovered from his wounds and this is about the last we hear of him.

    Some believe he shot himself after a botched train robbery near Parachute, Colorado on June 9, 1904. The train robbery was on June 7, 1904 and they had not gotten very far. I don't think Harvey could have been there just sixteen days before being shot on Bridger Creek in Wyoming.

  • Riding By
    June 25, 2009 3:20 p.m.

    . If indeed the Place alias came from Harry Longabaugh it seems likely that Etta was a Utah girl or at least living in Utah at the time of the camping out in the winter of 96-97 in Robbers Roost. We have always assumed that the alias came from Longabaugh (his mother's maiden name) but maybe it did not.


  • Interested Bystander
    June 25, 2009 3:12 p.m.

    Butch: From a letter dated Dec. 7, 1996 written to me from Jesse Cole Kenworth: "He is buried in Glenwood in Pioneer cemetery section called Gods half acre. His grave is marked with metal marker in a clump of Sage located at front of Neville sisters graves, across from the 10th pole of the chain link fence. His marker is adjacent to the original dividing wooden fence post that remains." Loney Logan's grave in Kansas City is easy. It is in the family plot next to his sister Arda Alma Rodriguez.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 25, 2009 2:50 p.m.

    Re: Harvey Logan,

    Pinkerton may have reached the conclusion on the 9th. The next day he received opposite information. The New York Times, the paragon of reporting all the news that fits, reported on July 11:

    "The Pinkerton Agecn at Denver, believing that the dead bandit was Logan, obtained his photograph and sent it to their Chicago agency. Word was received in this city yesterday by Robert A. Pinkerton that the bandit's photgraph had been fully identified by the police, Sheriffs, and jailers of the Knoxville jail, from which he had escapted, as Harvey Logan."

    On July 19, 1904, The Spokane Spokesman-Review reported that L. Spence of Chicago from a "leading detective agency" identified the robber as Harvey Logan from photographs. The article continued:

    "Spence was unable to complete his identification today for the reason that the body was in such an advanced state of decomposition as to destroy all distinquishing marks. Nevertheless he still maintains that Harvey Logan and the Rio Grande bandid are one and the same person. He has been strengthened in his belief after a talk with a local criminologist who had previously examined the features of the dead bandit."

  • Butch
    June 25, 2009 1:56 p.m.


    I'm of the opinion that H/N/N were nothing more than early SA cattle ranchers who used outlaws with cowboy skills as staff. The Newberry family might have had the cash to get the operation going but I think it is more likely that English/French/Belgian
    money was the major source of finance and that the money was funneled through New York capitalists and their British associated banks. After all, the beef and mutton went on British ships to Europe --who couldn't feed itself with local production.

    Ethel Place as a money representative? It sure looks that way, doesn't it? After Butch and Harry get the Cochamba trail open and the packing house going, they sell out and "Ethel" takes a powder. "Mission Accomplished"? And, Harry is back on financial skid row. No "Ethel" no dough.

    So why the trail so plain it could be followed by anyone? Try this line of thought: Instead of "Harry, The Sundance Kid, Longabaugh" what if it was "Hapless Harry The Red Herring Longabaugh"? If true, what was Harry The Red Herring leading everyone away from? It sure wasn't SA! What then?

  • Butch
    June 25, 2009 1:37 p.m.

    Interested Bystander:

    I'd be very interested in knowing the exact location of the grave of the dead robber. I don't believe for a minute that a DNA comparison with the remains of the train robber with Logan DNA would result in a match. At the moment I believe that Harvey Logan wasn't anywhere near Parachute or Rifle at the time of the robbery. I believe the final Pinkerton report is accurate, and that the deceased was never identified. William Pinkerton reached that conclusion as early as July 9, 1904 chiefly on the basis of the coroner not finding a bullet wound on the wrist.

    Siringo claimed he chased Harvey Logan after a bank robbery in 1908, and also claimed he got a letter from Jim Ferguson saying the three hold ups stayed at his ranch and that Harvey wasn't one of them. Siringo claims he sent the letter to the Burns Agency. That would square with the 1910 inquiry from the FBI.

    If we can't find Lonny's grave in KC, how about we try to find Johnny in Landusky?

    My shovel is still ready.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 25, 2009 12:44 p.m.

    Horse creek cowboy: thanks for the info.Another mystery to solve when BC/SK riddle is brought to a close!Bring on the grassy knoll!I've also got a good digging spade!
    sounds like i am off track a bit.What activities exactly where the Hall/nichols/newberry into?
    So they financed Bc/SK/EP venture in cholila?Where they then all part of the same organisation? Did the rest of the money go on buying into the H/N/N group?Did SK/EP travel back on coventional modes of transport to avoid drawing attention to the clandestine safety route? Why the trips back,were they cash couriers?Was ethel already an integral part of the H/H/N group? Can't be just that SK was a bad money manager.Was the deyoung photograph some kind of calling card/pass?Was ethel the main courier and SK was her travelling muscle.Where they really romantically involved?

  • Interested Bystander
    June 25, 2009 11:23 a.m.

    Butch and Horse Creek Cowboy-
    Just because the body at Parachute (there is no canyon) was not Tap Duncan does not mean that it was Harvey Logan. The wounds do not match Harvey according to the reports of the Coroner. One problem with Butch's suggestion that we dig up the corpse in Glenwood Springs (not Rifle) and compare the DNA to Loney Logan's in Kansas City, is that no one seems to know exactly where it is buried. If anyone is interested I have a precise location according to Jesse Cole Kenworth of the location of the grave of the dead bandit in Rifle, Colorado.

  • Butch
    June 25, 2009 10:11 a.m.

    TCB and Horse Creek Cowboy:

    Maybe not. On June 10, 1905 J. C. Fraser wrote to James McParland that the latest information received on the dead robber in Parachute Canyon was identified as one Shorty Fox from Holbrook, Arizona.
    (Container 91, Folio 2)

    Apparently the Pinkertons considered the information to be accurate. On February 3, 1910, William Pinkerton forwarded the Agency's file on Logan to E. Van Buskirk, Superintendant of the National Bureau of Criminal Identification in Washington (forerunner of the FBI). (Container 91, Folio 2) The file's last entry was June 27, 1903, detailing Harvey's escape from jail in Knox County, TN. As of 1910, both the FBI and Pinkertons were still looking for Logan and neither agency believed he died in Parachute Canyon.

    Insted of digging up Gold Teeth Duffy, why don't we do a double dig --the corpse in Rifle and Lonny Logan and compare DNA? We could write a book: "Digging Up Logans"

    I've got a shovel. Anyone else?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 25, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    Tartan Cowboy:

    Re: Kid Curry.

    The body based on a letter was initially identified as Tap Duncan. Tap, howver, died in 1944. Dated September 1, 1904, the Pinkertons reported to the American Bankers Association that the body in Parachute had been identified locally as Curry BUT, the Pinkerton's wrote
    To confirm identification they sent their Knoxville agent to Colorado. He dug up the remains but they were in such a state of decomposition that identification was impossible. The Pinkertons noted "there is some difference of opinion as to whether or not the dead bandit is Logan, and of this we are in doubt,"

    In 1905, "Andrew Duffy" appeared in Chubut. Writer Luis Sepuleda and rodeo producer Milt Hinkle believe that Duffy was Logan. Hinkle has Duffy dying in Bahia Blanca in 1941. Percy Seibert believed that Logan was killed in San Vicente. Others believe that Duffy was killed in 1910.

    Since the body was not that of Tap Duncan, most likely, Harvy was killed at Parachute. We of course can go to Bahia Blanca, dig up Duffy and do DNA tests. Title for new book, "Digging up Andy."

  • Butch
    June 25, 2009 8:30 a.m.


    No, I don't think you're off the track. However, I do believe that no doppelganger was involved and that Harry Longabaugh and Bob Parker were in fact in SA as recorded. I don't believe that they were pulling any crimes either in SA or the US. I believe that they were engaged in the cattle raising business exactly as it appears. The question I think is relevant is: "Who were the real parties in interest in the SA cattle raising venture?" Was it the Hall/Nichols/Newberry group who had been in the business since 1887?

    Why not "Follow the money"? Start with the Cholila ranch financing. Currently the literature says that Winnemucca robbery proceeds were used. If so, then Parker and Longabaugh are lugging around $20 grand worth of $20 gold coins from WY to TX to NY. However, Harry and "Ethel" deposited 2,000 pounds in British gold notes (worth $12,000) in the River Platt Bank in BA. Who changed the money? Where is the rest of the money? Remember Harry is broke at Slater around November 1, 1900 and then flush in NY when "Ethel" is around. Why?

  • tartan cowboy
    June 25, 2009 6:46 a.m.

    Trying to get my head round this.If they knew about the Hall/nicholls safety route and chose to take the more conventional mode of transport,one can only assume that it possibly was to leave a paper trail for the pinkertons to follow,but why?Was this by way of establishing their location as SA when in fact they intended spending little time in that local? While the pinkertons concentrated their efforts in SA BC/SK where free to carry out their shennanigans back home? If this is the case was Ethel living in cholila with two others?Did Harry acompany ethel back and forth to further establish their whereabouts?As far as the photo goes are you suggesting the hope was that it would fall into the pinkertons hands?The other question was why show this woman once seen never to be forgotten in photographic form? Was it to establish identity? but whose,hers or SK?To what end?Was it harry in the photograph,or a doppleganger?Am i completely off track here?

  • Butch
    June 24, 2009 1:47 p.m.


    Well, yes I do. However, I'd like to hear the views of others on this blog. There are a lot of very intelligent people with a lot of knowledge on this subject who contribute here. While waiting for responses, let me ask another dumb question.

    Suppose you and I, wanted criminals, were in Fort Worth, Texas, and decided to escape to SA. Further suppose that we both know about the Hall/Nichols escape route to SA by way of cattle boats leaving New Orleans or Galveston, going to Europe, and then SA. Now then, why would we chose to take a supposed Texas Hooker named Ethel Place to Buffalo and then to the Big Apple, when we could just hop a freight from Fort Worth to either New Orleans or Galveston and be on our way? Why go east and risk apprehension? Why have a photograph taken with Ethel/Etta and mail it to Gilespie where it is certain to fall into the hands of law enforcement?
    "Look, Pinkertons, here is the drop dead gorgeous woman we are traveling with. She's not only easy on the eyes, but see her once and remember her for life"

  • tartan cowboy
    June 24, 2009 11:41 a.m.

    have just got a copy of Kirby's the saga of Butch Cassidy etc.There are two photographs supposedly of BC.One on a horse 1912,the other in silver city 1936.The one on the horse is too indistinct,but the older man does have a resemblence,particularly with the fort worth photograph.Any thoughts on these? There is also a very dubious photo of Sundance kid and Kid curry.Was it really Kid Curry killed at Parachute?Any comments on this?
    I for one would be very interested in hearing your views on the subject Tumbleweed was talking about.Perhaps if you revisit the subject it would spark some comments.They were interesting questions you put out there,and i'm sure you have your own theories to the questions.Look forward to hearing from you.

  • GUE
    June 24, 2009 11:40 a.m.

    Thanks, HCC. 98years old! Built to last!

    This information on Ott is most helpful. The San Diego reference is something I haven't come across, but it sounds reminiscent of William T. Phillips and some of his excursions mentioned in Pointer's book (regarding his searching for buried loot). In any event, I'm going to scan through Phillips' "Bandit Invincible" manuscript and look for references to San Diego.

    I agree with Tartan Cowboy. I may be mistaken, but I've heard reference that the young man in the photo is actually a local cowboy named Mike Steele.

  • Butch
    June 24, 2009 8:17 a.m.

    Just checking the blog.


    Tartan Cowboy gave a good answer to your question. I'm the guilty party who asked the questions. As to where my question was going, I guess the answer is "Not very far". It didn't have legs on this blog as no one wanted to discuss it. It was probably too mundane to be of interest to anyone but me.

    If you have a thought about it, I'd like to hear it.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 24, 2009 7:50 a.m.

    Re: Wallace Ott

    Wallace met an individual claiming to be Butch in 1936 in Henrieville. The full story appeared in the Deseret News:

    By Jerry Spangler, Staff Writer
    Published: Monday, Nov. 25, 1991.

    Ott explained how he knew the individual was Cassidy:

    "There's no doubt, none whatsoever, that it was Butch Cassidy," Ott says. "He had photographs of places he'd been and photographs of people he'd run with. And he knew the stories as only someone who'd been there could tell them."

    "And he knew all the local names and histories as only someone who had grown up locally could have.

    "Ott, 79, recalls his visit with Cassidy fondly, calling him "well-preserved for a fellow in his 80's." Cassidy was traveling with an attractive woman and drove a nice car. He claimed to have a home in San Diego."

    About three years ago, Ott repeated the account of his visit with Cassidy to Photographer John Telford.
    Wallace is about 98 years old now.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 24, 2009 1:55 a.m.

    I believe the previous blog you're refering to was posted by butch.If you you read back you'll see he was posing questions based on observations,not making statements.
    I can't comment on the photograph in the nash book as i don't have a copy.I think the other photographs you mentioned,the teenage BC with horse and the horse creek BC sitting are both in the pointer book, but i dont know how authentic these are.
    How does one pronounce Duchesne?

  • Anonymous
    June 23, 2009 5:17 p.m.

    This will probably be of little value but at one time I was given Mr. Ott's name and phone number. The party that gave me the information also stated, he most likely won't answer the phone, as he his fed up with questions about Butch Cassidy. Ott was to have known Butch after his return to the US. At this time Mr. Ott lived in Tropic, Utah. The white pages currently lists a Wallace Ott in Tropic, ph # 435 679 8626. (doubt if it is the same one) Due to the years that have passed, I would be surprised if Wallace Ott is still living. Hope this can be of some help.

    Bob Jayne

  • GUE
    June 23, 2009 4:04 p.m.

    Hi Tumbleweed,

    Sorry--I must have missed your initial blog (trying to get up to speed here).

    While searching online, I stumbled across that name Wallace Ott, an old-timer who once claimed that he spoke with Cassidy after his return from S. America. Ott claimed that Cassidy died in a town called Henrieville in 1936; this may have been in an article called "Did Butch and sundance Return?" (Buck and Meadows). I was hoping to verify that this was not just another William T. Phillips sighting, but I can only find Ott's name online with very brief testimonies such as "an old-timer who claimed to have spoken with Butch Cassidy in the 1930s" etc.

    The years 1936-1937 seem to be a hotspot for theories regarding Cassidy's time of death, and I was hoping to cross-reference this Henrieville idea with the others. However, I can't find Ott in any publications (I apologize if I missed any in your initial blog--I'll go back and check).

    Thanks for any thoughts.

  • Tumbleweed
    June 23, 2009 3:07 p.m.

    The photo i was refering to with Butch standing next to a horse is in the "the encyclopediia of western lawmen & outlaws by Jay Robert Nash 1994 on page 68.Has anyone any thoughts on this photo?
    please expand on your blog. What is henriesville? What is theory on this?
    has my initiall blog been ignored? does the the person who blogged the questions i refered to not wish to answer? have they no answer? Was it a rhetorical question? Do they not have an answer?

  • GUE
    June 23, 2009 8:42 a.m.

    Has the notion that Cassidy died in Henrieville in 1936 (according to Wallace Ott) been supported by anyone else? There are only brief mentions of this over the Internet. Any thoughts?

  • A Thought
    June 20, 2009 8:15 p.m.

    "Thankfully the more that is written the more we will know what really happened."

    Didn't you mean to say....the more that is written, the less we will know of whar really took place. Each writing brings a change. What actually took place, never changes.


  • Anonymous
    June 20, 2009 7:31 p.m.

    It is amusing to know there are people that believe Butch and Sundance were killed in San Vicente. Thankfully the more that is written the more we will know what really happened.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 20, 2009 9:00 a.m.

    Interested Observer:

    Except for the material from Kathleen Hoyt quoted by Kid Charter relating to the serial number, consignee, etc. of the "famous" Charter gun, everything seems to be family legend originating with Boyd Charter. According to Keith's website, the gun bears Sundance's mark. Undoubtedly, however, the gun's travels originated in Texas. The question remains, how did it get to Antelope Flats. If stolen in train robbery, I would be inclined to either Breckenridge or Coleman, more likely because of timing to Breckenridge. That would have enabled the gun to have been delivered to the dealer in Sherman.

    If gun given to Sundance, most likely at the WS. All, however, is speculation, unless we employ a medium.

  • Anonymous
    June 19, 2009 6:03 p.m.

    It is fun, seeing what folks will believe. After all the dust settles, if it ever does, as has been pointed out, there are three pictures of Butch Cassidy, that are of him. The mug shot, Ft. Worth and the cabin picture in So. Am. The more that is weitten, the farther from what was reality, we get.

  • Butch
    June 19, 2009 5:57 p.m.

    Interested Bystander:

    Yes, everything you say is true. However, that is entirely beside the point under discussion. Ghosttown Bob introduced Valley's allegations under discussion. We are discussing those allegations to see if they have merit. Why not join in the discussion? I can't think of a time or place when Longabaugh and Ketchum were together, and I can't come up with a reason why Ketchum would give Longabaugh a weapon. Can anyone else?

  • Butch
    June 19, 2009 5:45 p.m.

    4.) In 1889 Longabaugh was either in jail in Sundance, Wyoming, or on the run following the shooting in the dug out on Oil Creek, or on his way to Canada. No chance, no way, he was having a drink with Butch and Matt in 1889 in Green River.

    So, while I'll accept the photo as depicting the figures as Matt described in his book, no way will I accept Lacy's dating of the photo as 1889.

    Best guess? The photo was taken shortly after Matt was released from prison, January 21, 1900. If that is true, I can well understand Sheriff Fares in the photo. Matt was no longer wanted and neither was Butch, the Statute of Limitations for Telluride having long since tolled. Harry was wanted for the Bell Fourche bank job, innocent though he was, but he was wanted under the name of Jones.

    I haven't blogged anythin here that is "proof" one way or another. I just expressed my opinion based on my reasoning from facts. Others no doubt see it differently. That is precisely what makes this so interesting and fun.

  • Butch
    June 19, 2009 5:32 p.m.

    1.) The photo made it into Matt's 1940 book, published after his death, between pages 138 and 139. Matt did not date the photograph. Apparently Lacy dated the photo from it's placement in the chapter dealing with Matt, Butch, and Tom McCarty hiding out in Robbers Roost after the Telluride bank job.

    2.) The figure seated in the doorway of the saloon is, according to Matt, Sheriff Tom Fares. According to Matt, he took Fares pants from him when Fares dared to enter the Roost looking for Butch, Matt and Tom on the Telluride escape. It isn't likely that Fares would join the boys for a friendly drink in Green River after having been stripped of his pants a few days before --especially with most of the western U.S. looking for the 3 named Telluride robbers. If Butch, Matt, and Fares were photographed in 1889, it would only be with Butch and Matt wearing shiny bracelets and with Fares leveling a Colt at them.

    3.) In 1889, Matt would have been 25 years old. In the photo Matt appears to be at least 36 to 40 years of age.

    Continued ...............

  • Interested Bystander
    June 19, 2009 5:28 p.m.

    If you guys will look at the entries that Kid Charter placed on June 8th you will note what he says about Olin Emery. The story about Tom Ketchum having the pistol (Charter Pistol) is bunk. I suspect that the story about it being lifted in a train robbery is also bunk. Are there any sources for this other than someone said? Everything that is written down is not necessarily fact. According to the Charters the pistol came from Longabaugh not Butch!

  • Butch
    June 19, 2009 5:14 p.m.


    The Warner/Lacy book has a lot of great stuff in it. As for the Anderson RR crew photo, this is the photo that TCB and I discussed from Eamonn O'Neill's book. The date attributed to the photo, 1910, more or less rules it out as being a photo of Butch regardless of whether or not you subscribe to the theory that Butch died November 6, 1908 at San Vicente or not. If the best Butch could do was work on a section gang in 1910, he must have lost his midas touch. Quite a comedown from being a SA cattle baron and hobnobbing with the diplomatic set. Then, too, Butch would have been around age 44 when the photo was taken. The figure depicted appears, at least to me, to not be yet 30 years of age. However, Butch or not must remain in the eye of the beholder.

    The photo on page 111, I'm willing to agree, is one of Butch, merely because Matt says it is. However, I'm not willing to give the date of the photo as 1889 for several reasons.

    Continued ..........

  • GUE
    June 19, 2009 3:43 p.m.

    Thanks, Ghosttown Bob. I'll check out the Butch and Sundance website right away. Sure would like to locate some of these alleged photos that pop up in the literature ...

    I'm curious about anyone's opinions of two photos that appear in Matt Warner's "Last of the Bandit Riders (Revisited)."

    1. (page 111) Warner and seven others in from of his saloon in Green River, Utah in 1889. Cassidy, apparently sitting in the chair beside the tree, face obscured by shadows.

    2. (page 69) George Edward Anderson photo of railroad crew with a bearded Cassidy in the background (enlargement of Cassidy's face on page 70).

    This is the edition updated by Joyce Warner and Steve Lacy. Do you think these are verifiable photographs?

  • Grow Up Enlightened
    June 19, 2009 3:34 p.m.

    Butch and Horse Creek Cowboy,

    Thank you for the summary of the photo situation. Much more complicated than I'd imagined, but I'm certainly in support of Correspondent Museums. Great idea.

    Looking forward to seeing the Lady Belle site.


  • Ghosttown Bob
    June 19, 2009 2:35 p.m.

    For photos, let's not forget about m/a/z/e's Butch and Sundance website. He has quite a few photos lifted from various sources of not only Wild Bunch members, but lawmen and documents also.

  • Butch
    June 19, 2009 2:21 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy:

    Thanks for the information. Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that the Spring, 1893 robbery at Coleman, Texas, was the train robbery where Blackjack stole the Charter Pistol.

    If Sundance got the pistol from Blackjack it would have to have been prior to the August 16, 1899 train robbery in New Mexico because Blackjack was captured near the robbery site the next day. Therefore, we would have to find a date between Spring, 1893, and August 16, 1899, when Blackjack and Sundance were in contact. Secondarily, we'll have to come up with a reason why Blackjack would give the weapon to Sundance. Any ideas?

    Sundance might have given Butch the weapon anytime between Thanksgiving, 1896, at the Bassett ranch and 1907 --if we assume that Sundance is "Ingersoll" and still in SA.

    Butch could have given Bert the weapon anytime between release from prison in January 1896 and 1908 when he was spotted in Wyoming as Hadsell reported.

    If these presumptions are anywhere near accurate, then I suppose what we need to do is determine when Blackjack gave the weapon to Sundance, and why, and when Butch gave it to Charter, and why.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 19, 2009 1:31 p.m.


    Keith doesn't give much information. Most appears to be speculation, but with that said:
    Robbery was allegedly in Texas by Ketchum Gang apparently led by Thomas E. Ketchum. Gun came into possession of Sundance Kid and from there to Butch Cassidy and thence to Charter.

    I have briefly looked at train robberies associated with Texicans, 1893, they were:
    Spring, 1893, Coleman, Texas;
    May 2, 1893 Pryor Creek, I. T. John Wilson, Alf Chaney, and Henry Starr;
    May 19, 1893 Ponca, I.T. June 24, 1893, Robbery in Choctaw Nation, Noah Lee arrested;
    May 26, 1893 California Express between Dodge City and Garden City;
    June 25, 1893, a train robbery, Brackenridge, Tex.
    November 3, 1893, Olyphant, Ark.

  • Tumbleweed
    June 19, 2009 11:12 a.m.

    Didn't i read on a previous posting someone posing a question about Sundance Kid being unwilling to have his photograph taken and always being without cash on the hip unless he was with Etta or Butch?
    Also why was he,Harry,travelling back and forth from S.A. to the United States while Butch sat in comfort and safety?
    Would the person like to expand on their questions? Where are you going with this?Does anyone know where this blogger is going with this?
    There is a supposed photograph of Butch Cassidy at the Horse Creek cabin circa 1889/90,and another one i remember seeing,though can't remember where,with Butch standing beside a horse,but not the alleged teenage photo from the Lady Belle website.I'll try to locate this and post back.

  • Butch
    June 19, 2009 6:52 a.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy:

    Good info on Lady Belle. I forgot to mention to Grow Up the "Legends of America" website which has a great number of Photos. And, I shouldn't have overlooked the 'Wyoming Tales and Trails" website which is chock full of interesting photos. I'm sure there are others I missed. Perhaps other contributors to the blog can help Grow Up with additional sites.

    I have a continuing interest in the Charter Pistol and was not previously aware of Keith Valley's allegation. Could you tell me:

    1.) Which train robbery the weapon was allegedly stolen from?

    2.) Date, place, and presumed suspects in the robbery would be most helpful.

    3.) Current theory on the possession of the weapon between the alleged train robbery and it's acquisition by Bert Charter, circa post 1900?

    4.) The name of the alleged gun dealer and his location at the time of the robbery, i.e. his hometown at the time and his point of departure as well as his intended place of arrival?

    Thanks for the information.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    June 18, 2009 3:33 p.m.

    An alleged teenaged Butch Photo is available on Lady Belle Outlaw's Hideout website. I have seen the photo before and, if memory serves me right, a copyright was claimed. Unless there is more than one famous Bert Charter Colt, Keith Valley claims that the gun was stolen from a gun dealer during a train robbery. Thus, it would not have been custom made for Ketchum, unless of course the gun dealer was concealing that he was selling weapons to outlaws.

  • Butch
    June 18, 2009 2:45 p.m.

    Free Photos:

    1.) The Fort Worth Five is the photo at the top of this blog. The original is in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, and not subject to copyright restrictions.

    2.) The DeYoung photo of Sundance and Etta, February, 1901, is also in the LOC.

    3.)The Wedding Photo of Kid Curry and Annie Rogers is also in the Pinkerton files at LOC.

    4.)Butch Cassidy's "Mug Shot" from the Laramie Penitentary is also in the Pinkerton files at LOC, however, the Wyoming Cultural Resources Center claims ownership of the original photograph. You can copy and distribute the photo from Butch's PNDA card.

    5.) You can look at a photo collection of relevance on line at the Utah State Archive in Salt Lake City.

    6.) The Hobo Photo of Kid Curry, and the "booking photos" of Tom O'Day and Walt Punteney are available for viewing to researchers at the Adams House and Museum in Deadwood, South Dakota.

    So far as I know, these are the only "for free" photos available to a citizen. Unfortunately, unless my idea of corresponddent museums takes hold, a lot of travel is involved.

    I hope this helps.

  • Butch
    June 18, 2009 2:26 p.m.

    The theory is that an author or film maker will profit from publication or distribution and thereby recoup the cost of using the material. The same holds true for documents, letters, and in some cases newspaper articles. I'm afraid this does nothing for your original request for a convenient, cost effective way to view the photographs.

    For the past two years I've advocated the idea of "Correspondent Museums" each member of which would license others in the association to display their material at no cost. Thus, each member of the group would appreciably increase their original material. Because museums and archieves are open to the public for research with a view toward benefiting the communities in which they are located,hopefully one of the members would be located reasonably close to each one of us. I've had some success with this idea. If you think this is worthwhile and of public benefit, I hope you will advocate the idea.

    Once you get into the verification of photographs relative to the Wild Bunch, I must warn you that you are about to enter a sort of twilight zone where reality is quite often distorted.

    Continued ........

  • Butch
    June 18, 2009 2:10 p.m.

    Grow Up:

    You're more than welcome. Anything I can do to help advance the ball on this fascinating subject is what I want to do.

    I'm not aware of any on-line source of a Wild Bunch photo collection. It would be nice if we had one so that we could all look at and discuss the various photos in play.

    With the exception of the photographs in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, most photographs are in the collections of private parties and are subject either to copyright restrictions, museum or archive regulations, or the desire of private parties to benefit financially from their ownership. Of the latter group are the three "post card" photographs of Butch and Sundance at Cholila circa 1903-1904 which are the property of Paul Ernst, Donna Ernst's husband. I'm hard pressed to find fault with a private individual's assertion of property rights and am very vigorous in my support of them.

    Most museums and archived collections have a schedule of charges for the use of their material in publications or film.

    Continued .........

  • Grow Up Now Enlightened
    June 18, 2009 1:19 p.m.

    I feeling a little humble now, but would like to ask if anyone knows of any online repositories or collections of alleged photographs of the Wild Bunch. I've heard rumours of photos of Doc Masson, Cassidy as a young man with George Bullock, etc., but I can't seem to locate any. And the books they appear in are either out of print or quite expensive. Any ideas?

  • Grow Up Now Enlightened
    June 18, 2009 1:15 p.m.


    Having read this, I can safely say: I was wrong, as were my assumptions about the spirit of this blog. Excellent response and I'm better off for it. Thank you, Butch.

    Looking forward to future comments.

  • Butch
    June 18, 2009 7:40 a.m.

    On the other hand, when Jerry and/or members of his team blog, for example, that the Pinkerton reports of 1900-1901 are "forgeries", I believe it is entirely fair to challenge the statement, and it most certainly is fair and resonable to discuss the matter.

    3.) Your point regarding the practice on this blog of engaging in personal attacks is well taken, and I find myself in complete agreement with you. I consider myself properly chastened and will not do it in the future. I enjoy the robust debate on this blog and hope we can all benefit from it. I most certainly have.

    4.) The comment about computers being "instruments of the Devil" was partially tongue in cheek. In fact, I am frequently flumexed by the contraption, and, in addition, long for the days when I received letters rather than email. My attitude is no doubt influened by my advanced age. I fully understand that others have an opinion different than mine.

    I found your comments interesting and stimulating. I hope we read more from you in the future.

  • Butch
    June 18, 2009 7:24 a.m.

    Grow Up:

    1.) The copy I have of "Digging Up Butch & Sundance" by Anne Meadows is the 1996 edition of the 1994 original issue, Revised Edition. My copy contains no footnotes, chapter notes, or end notes. Are you telling us that a subsequent edition of Ms Meadows book contains end notes? If so, that would be a most valuable addition to the literature. Please tell us which edition you have that contains end notes.

    2.)Ms Meadows and Mr Buck have published one book and numerous articles regarding Butch and Sundance in South America. Because they have published they are "fair game" for criticism, as any authors would be. Jerry Nickle has not yet published nor has his film been released, and therefore the only material we have for critical review and discussion is that which appears on this blog. The "crux" of Jerry's argument --DNA comparison -- has not been released. Release of the results of the comparison before release of the book/film would, I imagine, seriously depreciate the revenue from those properties.

    Continued ..............

  • Photos Online?
    June 17, 2009 12:24 p.m.


    This information about the alleged photo of Cassidy and Bullock is fascinating.Do you know if anyone has it posted online? Or the Charter and Burton photos?

  • Grow Up 2
    June 17, 2009 12:20 p.m.

    Anonymous ( Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact) Are we reading the same book? Those little numbers at the ends of sentences. Those are called "end notes." E-N-D-N-O-T-E-S. Say it with me

    Jerry Nickle (The best primary source is Charles Siringo..) This seems to contradict other comments posted about Pinkerton information being at best secondary.

    How does it feel to be insulted simply for stating your opinion? If this were the Wild Bunch, you'd at best be a bunch of Gunplay Maxwells.

  • Grow Up
    June 17, 2009 12:19 p.m.

    I dont agree with Buck and Meadows theory regarding death in San Vincente, but theyve devoted as much time, money, effort and serious and ethical research into this mystery as any of you. If you want the truth about Cassidy, act like responsible researchers and consider all angles with an open mind. I come out looking for valuable informationand its herebut its buried in a compost heap of peanut-brained insult.

    Kid Lutefisk,
    (computers were instruments of the devil, a fad, and [will] soon go away) What are you using to communicate with on this forum?

    Kid Lutefisk,
    (In defense of Jerry Nickle I would like to say that I personally know the man to be possessed of a character beyond reproach. Along that line, I believe it to be entirely unfair of all of us to demand that Jerry reveal the crux of his position) Isnt this what youre expecting of Buck?

    Driftwood (Dont complain about Bucks bilingual abilities. If you want the facts, learn Spanishlike hes doneand stop whining.)


  • Anonymous
    June 16, 2009 7:13 p.m.

    Who were the experts that authenticated only three photographs? Why did they not find the Charter and Burton photographs authentic? I suspect the they do no not believe the Charter photograph is authentic because it would make their theory of Butch being in Argentina in 1901 wrong. What other reason is there? The Charter photograph was taken in New York City Feb 1902. Butch had this photograph taken shortly before he left New York for Argentina for his first time. He arrived in Burnos Aires and filed for land at the government office April 3, 1902.
    The experts did not discover the Burton Photograph so they ignore it. Only the experts make discoveries.

  • Anonymous
    June 16, 2009 4:03 p.m.

    Most have told me there are three authentic pictures of Butch Cassidy. The prison mug shot, Ft. Worth and the photo in So. Am. The rest maybe just wanted to be.

  • Anonymous
    June 16, 2009 3:17 p.m.

    There is a photo of Butch Cassidy and George Bullock in Doris Burtons Queen Ann Bassett alias Etta Place. The book is now out of print. It appears to be a photo of a teenage Butch Cassidy standing with George Bullock sitting. They are wearing cowboy garb. The photo was taken in Salt Lake City.
    Kirbys book has a the well known Butch Cassidy Prison photograph.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 16, 2009 11:21 a.m.

    anonymous: thanx for the heads up on the book "Cowboys don't walk" tried to buy it from amazon but it couldn't be shipped to uk for some reason,so haven't seen the photo of BC with charter.is it authentic? are there any other authentic photos that i'm not aware of?
    I also read somewhere about a possible photo of an older BC in an Ed Kirby book.Any one have any comments on this? which book is it?
    i know it's not the most important area in finding any historical facts,but i'm a very visual person and have a certain artistic streak to feed,so all info on photos on BC/SK would be good.
    Any news on the DNA?

  • Butch
    June 14, 2009 12:30 p.m.

    Kid Charter:

    I just arrived back from the Foggy Bottom mission. Do you have any information on the .45 Colt Olin Emery talked about as being either a companion weapon or odered by Black Jack Ketchum? Emery's discussion is the only information I have ever seen about this weapon.

  • Anonymous
    June 13, 2009 6:30 a.m.

    Why do our "experts" tend to go away at the appearance of facts?

  • Your Favorite Mouse
    June 12, 2009 5:06 p.m.

    It is a shock to learn Mr. Iverson is so well known. Way to go Butch.


  • Ms. G.R
    June 12, 2009 4:40 p.m.

    Thank you Linguist. It is because he is afraid that Bill Long will be proven to Be Harry Longabaugh. He is even more afraid that he will not have any control over it.

  • As any linguist can tell...
    June 12, 2009 9:54 a.m.

    Butch is actually about 60 percent of all the different names used on this comment board. A simple analysis of the syntax shows that the same person is speaking under different names. I wonder what the purpose is and why go to such an effort when the audience is so small that it is of no consequence in the scheme of things... unless one wishes to get under someone's skin. Hmmmmm.

  • Kid Charter
    June 8, 2009 2:52 p.m.

    The famed Charter Pistol 38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, owned and in the possession of the Montana, Charters.

    Colts Manufacturing Company, Inc. March 5, 2004
    Colt, by means of this letter, is proud to authenticate the manufacture of the Colt firearm with the following serial number:
    Colt Single Action Army Revolver.
    Serial Number: 151179
    Caliber: 38/40
    Barrel Length: 4
    Finish: Nickel
    Type of Stocks: Pearl
    Factory Engraved: Yes
    Shipped To: Roberts, Willis & Taylor Company
    Address: Sherman, Texas
    Date of Shipment: June 15, 1893
    Number of Same Type
    Guns in Shipment: 1

    We trust you will find the historical information, retrieved from the original Colt shipping records, to be of interest.

    Kathleen J. Hoyt.

  • Kid Charter
    June 8, 2009 10:08 a.m.

    Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, was a rebuttal to Boyd Charter's claim that his father Bert Charter had been an outlaw. In 1945, while Boyd Charter was serving in the United States Navy, his mother, Maud Charter, was convinced that Boyd would not return alive. Boyd felt that in his absence, Olin Emery had influenced his mother, to sell the Spring Gulch Ranch, at Jackson Hole, all of Boyd's personal belongings, burn all of Bert Charter's photo albums, letter's and personal documents, she gave Olin Emery the 38-40 pistol that had been promised to Boyd Charter. It would not be the least bit surprising to those of us, who know anything about Bert and Kid Charter, that Olen Emery probably was not told and therefore did not know the truth about Bert Charters early days as an outlaw. The Charters maintained a strict code of silence, and Olin Emery would have been considered an outsider, even though, he married into the family. There is also the possibility that Emery knew, but having been a sheriff, did not want it known that his own father-in-law had been an outlaw.

  • Autumn
    June 8, 2009 9:32 a.m.

    Wow this is so cute, you guys snipe like 12 year old girls at a slumber party. Brings me back to my middle school days. So, who is dating who, and who's the skank that totally held his hand in the hallway?

  • Kid Charter
    June 8, 2009 7:49 a.m.

    In the early years, Martha Charter, was destitute and worked at various jobs in both Rawlins and Dixon, to support the family, including one year for Charles Perkins at his mercantile store in Dixon. Martha Charter obtained a divorce from Albert E. Charter in Manchester, Iowa, in May 1890. On June 21, 1892, Martha Charter married Reuben Henry Wilbur in Rawlins, Wyoming. Reuben Wilbur was army quartermaster agent at Rawlins. On February 21, 1893, Martha Reuben gave birth to Reuben Henry Wilbur Jr., in Rawlins. That same year, Reuben Wilbur Sr. was reassigned as army quartermaster agent at Fort Duchense, Utah, where he served until his retirement in 1896, they then moved to Grand Junction, Colorado, where Reuben died in 1898 and Martha in 1901. Documented fact.
    According to what Bert Charter told his immediate family of the pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, had belonged to Harry Longabaugh. There are no confirmed reports that the pistol was special ordered by Tom Black Jack Ketchum in the latter 1890s. The question is, was Olin Emery also wrong about the original owner of the pistol?

  • Kid Charter
    June 8, 2009 7:48 a.m.

    When Boyd Charter returned home after the war, he demanded that the pistol be returned to him, as the rightful heir, only after Boyd threatened legal action, did Olin return the pistol. Neither man liked one another from that point on. Olin Emery went on to say that Bert Charter had never been an outlaw, or involved with Butch Cassidy as an outlaw. He described how Bert and his parents first lived in Grand Junction, Colorado. Olin Emery was either mislead by his father-in-law, Bert Charter, or purposely distorted the documented facts.

    Martha Charter and her three sons, Robert Henry "Bert" Charter, Ernest Gaylord "Kid" Charter and Wade Clark Charter, arrived at the home of her father, Charles Hughes, in Dixon, the summer of 1887. Her husband, Albert Charter, had abandoned her and the children in Iowa. The older daughter, Mary Mamie Charter died in Iowa, in 1885. Martha Charter gave birth to Arlie Hughes Charter, in Rawlins, on December 6, 1887. Bert Charter and Kid Charter worked for Charles Perkins in Dixon and later for various ranchers in the Snake river valley.

  • Kid Charter
    June 8, 2009 7:46 a.m.

    Butch, The famed Charter Pistol
    According to Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, the famed Charter Pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, originally was made to order for Black Jack Ketchum and delivered to El Paso, TX. After Black Jack was hung, George West Musgrave obtained the gun. Musgrave married Jano Magor, sister to Maud Magor, Bert Charter's wife. Shortly after the marriage, Musgrave, fleeing a murder warrant, gave the Colt to Bert Charter to secure a $150 debt.

    Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, was a rebuttal to Boyd Charter's claim that his father Bert Charter had been an outlaw. In 1945, while Boyd Charter was serving in the United States Navy, his mother, Maud Charter, was convinced that Boyd would not return alive. Boyd felt that in his absence, Olin Emery had influenced his mother, to sell the Spring Gulch Ranch, at Jackson Hole, all of Boyd's personal belongings, burn all of Bert Charter's photo albums, letter's and personal documents, she gave Olin Emery the 38-40 pistol that had been promised to Boyd Charter.

  • Anonymous
    June 6, 2009 7:13 p.m.

    There is a photograph of Butch Cassidy and Burt Charter on page 57 in Anne Charters Cowboys Dont Walk. This photo was taken in New York City in 1902.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 6, 2009 4:18 p.m.

    how many photos do we have of BC? i know of the laramie, the fort worth ,and two from SA.is there any more,and where can i view them?
    same question for SK,i know the fort worth, the de young and two? from SA.is there any more and again where can i view them?
    seems to be a very quiet day today.is this some kind of holiday in the states?
    Butch: mrs tartan cowboy,and tartan cowboy junior says hello to you and cherokee,hope you are all well.

  • Bob Jayne
    June 6, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    My apologies to all, as I reply to BI.
    The coin that brought you (and others) so much laughter. I called your BE, as I recalled nothing about it. After BE explained what she remembered, sorry I still didnt recall. But if my not finding a coin in 8 days of luggage brings you a smile, so be it.
    Contribution. Yes I could bore all with the many books Ive read. Others have too. My opinions would be no better than anyones. What I could have provided, that most would enjoy, is the communication and meeting members of the Parker/Betenson families. Lulas daughter, Bill and his Mom and Dad, and recently talking with Butchs brother Dan Parkers, Grandson. A nice man. But we know where that would lead. They do too.
    I do recall a few years ago, when Jerry introduced you to a small group we had. It was fun for a while. Then someone tried to bully us. I think we all left.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 6, 2009 1:46 a.m.

    Pixie: the Dimaio reports are,i agree very intresting and requires further discussion.
    Butch:re 1910 photo.I'm not suggesting it is butch,we all have dopplegangers,but just that there is avery strong resemblance and perhaps the origin of the photo should be looked into.perhaps mr bettenson would firnish us with details.re the working on the railroad.Didn't BC/SK and others of their ilk when inbetween "jobs" indulge in some "honest graft" as we say over here?
    What do the pinkertons report on BC 1908/09?
    The whole camera shy/financial issue with SK is interesting would like to hear more.Your continued blog seems to have vanished into the ether.

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 6:04 p.m.

    The same applies to the question of Harry being flush with cash and living grand whenever in the company of Butch and Ethel but being desperately poor when neither is around. Why is that?

    Ghosttown Bob offered the suggestion that Harry spent all his money living large and settled a large sum on Ethel circa 1905. That may be, however, the same didn't seem to be the case with Butch who not only lived well but prospered well into 1909 if we give full credence to the 1908 and 1909 Pinkerton reports and if there is any weight to my argument that Butch was heavily involved in the 1910-1920 Rickard/Nichols/Farquart Rio Paraguay cattle venture. What accounts for the difference between the two? Was Butch merely a better money manager, or did he have access to funds Harry didn't have?

    Then too, why was Harry the one who left the safety of SA and kept escorting Ethel back and forth, taking the risk of discovery and apprehension while Butch loafed around in perfect safety?

    Continued ......

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 6:00 p.m.


    I remember you very well. Thanks for your help picking out the hat. I have it still.

    I think my Bonny Scot Pal, TCB, will be easily persuaded to continue our discussion of the Frank Dimaio notebook entries.

    What I found of special interest in Dimaio's entry regarding the purported mail cover on Samanna was that, if I got my calendar straight, Harry mailed two letters on or about February 25, 1902, with one letter going to Samanna and the other letter going to David Gillespie. The result of these letters was that the Pinkertons and law enforcement officers were not only put on Harry's trail and Buffalo and NYC, but they then knew Harry's coountry of refuge --Argentina.

    I don't believe Harry was an irrational person, however, writing those two letters, shortly before he got on a boat with alias Ethel Place bound for NYC, seems very irrational. Whenever a rational person does something irrational --diametrically opposed to their self interest -- I want to know why.

    All of this links to my questions regarding Harry going from being camera shy in 1897 to a regular camera "hog" 1900 and following. Why?

    Continued .......

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 5:52 p.m.


    Question regarding the 1910 photo. If it is indeed Butch, would that mean that he fell on hard times and had to work a RR section gang?

    On the James Kirton Hutcheon hunt, I suggest you have fun trying your hand at the "private eye" routine. As for the Missus, you might try what I did, which was to remind her that, aside from Sherlock Holmes, every Private Eye worth a darn had a bombshell of a female partner. The Cherokee looked at my sleuthing in a whole new light, being rather flattered that I wanted her to partner up in the game. From that time to this we're pals on the case.

    Other spousal partners are Dan Buck and Anne Meadows, and Jerry and Belle Nickle. I know for a fact that Pixie, Barbarella, and Ancient Mariner have spouses, and they are in the game.

    The Cherokee sends her warm greetings to you and Mrs. TCB, a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree.

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 5:38 p.m.

    That unbalanced situation seemed to persist until the 6 year Nevada Statute of Limitations tolled when Butch seemed to be everywhere, UT, WY, TX, and NM.

    Post 1909, there are repeated reports about Butch, but very few about Harry. Why? If both Harry and Butch were in Carbon County in 1909, it means they both survived SA. What happened to Harry? What happened to Ethel? If olin Emery, a Sheriff is correct, then "Ethel" Place as "Etta" Place was in Price, Utah post 1910 when Mary Calvert was Mrs. Elzy Lay. Again, if Harry and Ethel are husband and wife, and Harry is on the Little Snake in 1909, where is he in post 1910?

    I wish I had more answers and fewer dumb questions for you Pixie. I sure my fellow bloggers can provide some fresh looks, new thoughts, and maybe some answers.

  • Anonymous
    June 5, 2009 5:00 p.m.

    Better yet, why don't you treat all of us to a rendition of the famous "Hanksville Coin Trick" you tried?

    Ah Butch, could I buy a vowel? Are you confronting Marilyn, Bob,Jerry, Bobby, M&M, or just grabbing straws. You may get it right yet. If I were the "unreading Bobby", and also can't hear, pray tell how I am to learn , like you, and make a report. Can't wait to learn about your "coin trick".

  • tartan cowboy
    June 5, 2009 4:31 p.m.

    Butch. re the hutcheon research, i'll do my best,may take a while.
    Re the o'neill book,don't spend to much sleepless nights over it,it's not that insightful,but has it's humerous moments'and he is afellow scot after all.
    thanks for your input on the 19.10 photo,can't totally agree with you on that one, think the likeness is uncanny,but like you have no proof.it's all about opinions'
    mrs tartan cowboy says hello.she is scoffing saying am " going to be a private dick now?" she is thoroughly enjoying reading the blog,especially the "bitching".
    a warm welcome from to all new bloggers from one new one.

  • Pixie
    June 5, 2009 4:27 p.m.


    I think you and I were both at Blondis when BE told about the coin trick. Am I right? Yes, I'm still laughing.

    Would you mind getting back to the Wild Bunch? I'd like to read more about the Frank Dimaio notebook entry you and TCB were discussing. Thanks.

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 4:04 p.m.


    Still trying to stir the pot without a spoon? Well, Bob, why not do something completely out of character for you and blog about an issue, a fact you've uncovered, or an insight you've made? Better yet, why don't you treat all of us to a rendition of the famous "Hanksville Coin Trick" you tried? When you blew it, a good chunck of Utah is still laughing and telling the story. My point is, you never contribute a single thing to anyone's efforts on the Wild Bunch. Everything you do is only for the purpose of sticking a fork in the wheel of discovery by launching personal attacks. I find you tiresome.

    Passing By:

    Have we met? Maybe not.
    "If you knew Bobby,
    like I know Bobby,
    Oh, Oh, Oh what a Pill!"

    I guess you'd have to meet Bobby to fully understand.

    I hope you pass by again when the blog is discussing something of value.

  • Passing By
    June 5, 2009 3:31 p.m.

    From a distance Butch, you seem rather touchy, when a poster suggests a book you did not list. It also would appear to be childish to insult one's reading ability. If you don't like what you say being criticized, possibly you need to consider, not saying it. Even non-readers are entitled to their opinion.


  • Anonymous
    June 5, 2009 3:07 p.m.

    Ah Butchie:

    Is Marilyn getting under your skin, you seem a little "testy". Or are you just trying to make friends? Or are you trying to say, you do your "own" reading?

    Ah, Ms. Bobbie

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    Ah, Bobby:

    Yes, of course, your favorite, "Butch Cassidy, My Brother"! I thought Book? was looking for one or a few books just to get started, hence my reccomendations. Ms Betenson's material is covered in Patterson's text, is latter in time of publication, and contains a good deal of previously unpublished material. If you don't believe that is accurate, why don't you have someone read it to you?

  • Ms. Help
    June 5, 2009 1:31 p.m.

    Book, I am sure Mr. Butch did not mean to leave out the book written by Mr. Parker's sister. BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER, by Lula Parker Betenson and Dora Flack. It is one of Dan Buck's favorites.

    Enjoy. There are, of course, many, many more.

    M H

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 12:33 p.m.


    Welcome to the blog. I think there ought to be a warning here that goes something like: "Warning! This blog and its subject are addictive!"

    For Butch Cassidy, try Richard Patterson's "Butch Cassidy: A Biography"

    For Sundance try either of Donna Ernst's books, "Sundance, My Uncle" or "The Sundance Kid"

    For the San Vicente controversy, try Anne Meadows "Digging Up Butch and Sundance"

    I hope you'll blog back and let us know what you think.

  • Butch
    June 5, 2009 12:25 p.m.

    My copy of O'Neill's "Outlaws" arrived today and I looked at the 1910 photo. I was previously aware of that particular photo. In my opinion, the photo in question isn't Butch. My opinion --stress opinion-- is based on my view that the jowels aren't "bull dog" enough to be Butch. So much for "opinion". I haven't got a single fact to back up my opinion, and I'll wager others will have an opinion different than mine.

    Photo identification is, I find, a very tricky undertaking. It is difficult to get a definative identification that will hold up under scrutiny and detailed research.

    Please carefully read Kid Charter's blog on identification of the purported Bulldog Saloon Photo. When the Kid says he thought one thing about a photo at one time, worked on it, and reached a different conclusion, you better believe that photo identification is one tricky business.

    Thanks for putting me on to "Outlaws". It looks like I'll be up late reading it. As long as you have me losing sleep, let me repay the favor.

    Get a copy of John Rolfe Burroughs "Where the Old West Sayed Young."

  • Book?
    June 5, 2009 10:34 a.m.

    I've become quite interested in this story thanks to your blogging. What was the outcome of the DNA testing and what is the best book to read about Butch and Sundance. Thanks

  • Kid Charter
    June 5, 2009 9:34 a.m.

    Regrettably, I believe we can write off the Bulldog saloon photo, I guess it was only fitting that I would be the one to discover an unknown copy of the photo, with identifying names that match up with local men living in Rawlins, dating the photo about 1906. Although a Ryan and Charter are in the photo, there not Jack Ryan and Bert Charter. I was absolutely convinced that the photograph was authentic. In researching the photo, I found that Jack Ryan had not opened a saloon in Baggs until the summer of 1895, making the 13 year old boy identified as Bert Charter 22 and Kid Charter 20. Although, I have been told that my conclusions about the Bulldog saloon photo have not been proved, it certainly creates doubt about the authenticity of the Bulldog photo. The 13 year old boy identified as Bert Charter was undoubtedly Bert Charter's half brother, Reuben Wilbur, known as Babe Charter in Rawlins, because Bert Charter was named guardian after the death of his parents, Babe Wilbur would have been 13, in 1906. Jack Ryan's brother, Tom Ryan is also in the photo.

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 7:34 p.m.


    What an unpleasant surprise to hear from you! Still trying to come up with one intelligent thought and express it with some degree of articulation, I see.
    Keep trying, you're not there yet.

    As long as you've turned up again, I have a question for you:

    If, as you contend, Bill Long sustained a leg wound at Cortez, Colorado in the spring of 1891, isn't he excluded from being Harry Longabaugh by virture of the fact that Harry was in Canada between 1890 and 1892?

    Now run along and work on your article like a good girl.

  • Anonymous
    June 4, 2009 7:08 p.m.

    "As a general rule, whenever Mr. Buck becomes aware of a request for assistance he responds promptly and generously." From Mr. Iverson.

    Come on Mr. I, this is supposed to be a source of factual information.

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 6:18 p.m.


    I think the system has some problems. I had suggested James Kirton Hutcheon as your first target. He was born in 1882 near Dyce and died in 1924 in Edinburgh. In between he went to Bolivia and became one of Butch's close friends. He had a half-brother, Enrique who was half Bolivian and half Scot. I don't know if there were other siblings or if Hutcheon followed a parent to Bolivia.

    If this gets through, I think we're back on track.

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 6:07 p.m.


    Everybody has their own method of tracking. Here's mine. I like to go to the place(s) where my target is known to have been. (Dyce/Edinburgh?) I'll hang around a saloon (pub?) and make friends of the locals, telling everybody who I am and what I'm looking for. Someone usually directs me to an oldtimer in the area. I also hang out at the local library, local museum, and local historical society and ask questions there. These are normally gold mines of information. Next stop is the county court house where I ask the registrar for help looking up deeds to real estate. I also stop in the local newspaper office and spend some time reading back issues around the dates I'm interested in. Local cemetaries can yeild information and most bone yards have registers of internments. That's about it. Pretty simple, very effective, and very enjoyable. One gets to travel, meet new people, sample local foods, and see the sites. I tease my pals about me "working too hard".

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 5:55 p.m.

    Hutcheon had an American wife, Frances Miller from PA, and nine kids. I'll work Hutcheon from Stateside.

    Mr Buck and Ms Meadows are the resident authorities on Hutcheon. As a general rule, whenever Mr. Buck becomes aware of a request for assistance he responds promptly and generously. I expect that will be the case here. It doesn't seem to matter if you support his positions or not.

    Good Luck to you and I'll save a bit for myself.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 4, 2009 3:46 p.m.

    Butch: i know the photo in question,i have a copy of the book.don't know much about it though.has any one in the photo been authenticated? doesn't look like sundance.there is other obvious ones ,the logans etc. is it butch?
    regarding the research,sounds interesting don't know how much help i could be but i'm willing to try ,but don't know where to start.what is wild bunch scottish connection,apart from BC grandparent and gorbals boy mr pinkerton?
    perhaps if dan buck is reading he could share his thoughts on the bulldog saloon photo?

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 12:37 p.m.

    The current debate or controversy centers around the date of the photo, the place of the photo, and which of the multiple figures in the photo are whom.

    Each of these issues is of importance. For example, if the Photo is proved to be taken in Baggs in 1896, and Bill McCarty is "in the picture", then the theory that Tom McCarty and not Bill was killed at the Delta bank job would gain traction. And so on.

    If you obtain a copy of Larry Pointer's book, "In Search of Butch Cassidy," you can see the photograph and get Pointer's opinion and thoughts. Mr Buck has written on the photo, and he might favor you with his thoughts, which are different than Pointer's. The subject is very interesting, and is another example of "no matter how much you think you know, there is always more to learn."

    I think it fair to say that no one person would ever be able to acquire all the documents, facts, articles, and evidence necessary to tell the full story of the Wild Bunch. Those who try must "get by with a little help from their friends."

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 12:25 p.m.

    It distresses me to hear that Bletchley Park has fallen on hard times. I've always thought it was a wonderful symbol of what can be accomplished when Great Britain and the U. S. partnered on a matter of great importance.

    The reason why I asked about Bletchley Park was by way of raising with you possible interest you might have in joining up with your Yankee friends --may I include myself among them? -- and doing a bit of investigative work on the Wild Bunch.

    A good many of us put "boots on the ground" in UT, WY, TX, NM, SD, MT, ID, NV, and elsewhere, tracking the Wild Bunch. Sadly, we have no "Man Across The Pond", and that is a great pity because there are so many Brits and Scots involved in the true story.
    If you are so inclined, how does the idea of sleuthing in Scotland and England stike you?

    Re the Bulldog Saloon Photo: There is a photograph circulating in the literature which purports to be a photograph of the Bulldog Saloon, presumably in Baggs, WY, and possibly having a good many Wild Bunch members in it.

    Continued ............

  • tartan cowboy
    June 4, 2009 11:12 a.m.

    bletchley park:i've never been,but it was so important to all the allies during ww2 saving countless numbers of lives.the sad aspect to recent stories on our tv news programmes about bletchley is that it is going to rack and ruin through lack of funds.it is mostly run on handouts and the generosity of some folks who at least have asemblance of it's historic value.forgotten,much like our old soldiers.
    what's the significance of the "Bulldog Sallon" photo?

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 9:02 a.m.

    I committted to Jerry and other of our pals to produce a draft, or outline, of the facts, evidence, and line of argument on an issue that we believe will be of interest to the general public and readers of this blog in particular. The draft will be circulated, and when Jerry and I believe the work has been sufficiently vetted, it will be published, with the two of us as co-authors.

    It is true that Jerry invited me to join the film effort, and that I declined. It is also true that I have asked Jerry to be my publisher for books in the works. So far, Jerry has not declined.

    I would like Jerry to jump into this blog full force, and give us the benefit of his views, and his considerable knowledge of this subject. We would all benefit. It isn't material --at least to me -- if Jerry declines to discuss facts or issues that bear directly on the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question. However, this blog has raised countless issues and questions that are on the margins of that one issue or are completely divorced from it.

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 8:49 a.m.

    I believe that Mr Buck and Ms Meadows, among others, have successfully demonstrated in their various articles and Digging Up Butch and Sundance, that Pointer was wrong and Dullenty is correct. However, if that results in throwing all of Pointer's work under the bus, then I think we make a gross error. Further, I am of the opinion that Bill Phillips is a person of great interest, and we have much to learn by continuing to look into him.

    I have the same opinion regarding Jerry and his work on Bill Long. If it be proved that I am correct and Jerry is wrong, I am steadfast in my opinion that all of Jerry's work should not be discounted, and that Bill Long as Bill Long, not as Harry Longabaugh, is a person of continuing interest that should be scrutinized more fully. We have a good deal more to learn if we continue investigating Bill Long.

    It would not be correct if readers of this blog assume that Jerry and I have ceased all working together. Indeed, at the present time we are hard at work on a joint project.

  • Butch
    June 4, 2009 8:36 a.m.

    I think you all asked fair questions, if one assumes that my involvement with Jerry and the Bill Long Story is material to a discussion of the facts and issues that comprise the basis of this blog. With that proviso, I'll do the best I can to respond.

    I believe that Jerry and I are a parallel case to Jim Dulenty and Larry Pointer. Both of those men looked at the Bill Phillips as Butch Cassidy question. Initially they operated as partners and looked at the same material, the same documents, and the same fact base. They reached different conclusions, with Dulenty forming the opinion that Phillips was not Cassidy and Pointer believing that Phillips was Cassidy. At that point the two men separated in terms of their joint effort regarding Phillips.

    Jerry introduced me to the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question in January, 2007. We looked at the same documents, the same fact base, the same evidence. Ultimately, by mid-July 2007, we had reached different conclusions. I concluded that Bill was not Harry and Jerry concluded that Bill was Harry.

    Continued .........

  • Ms. Mous
    June 4, 2009 7:58 a.m.

    "What say you Butch, are you seeking revenge or the truth?"

    You aren't going to be like the SAFA (self appointed foremost authority) are you? When confronted with facts, or questions that could put you in a bad light, you look the other way.

    I would think if Mr. Nickle's project is so bad, you would not want to be associated with it anyway.

    M M

  • Not Nickles, Grace or Karr
    June 4, 2009 6:46 a.m.

    We are waiting to hear what your involvement in the Bill Long project was? You bragged to several people that you were going to be a paid adviser in the filming and production of the Bill Long, Harry Longabaugh story. That suggests, that you either believed there was enough evidence to support the theory, or you were willing to be a participant in the hoax you now accuse your former associates Nickles, Grace and Karr of promoting.
    What say you Butch, are you seeking revenge or the truth?

  • Ms. Mous
    June 3, 2009 7:54 p.m.

    Butch claims, "We're all waiting."

    Did he (Butch) mean to say "I" am waiting, or does he have a mous, or shall we say, a Ms. Mous(es) in his pocket? With hardly a breath left, we (I, us, them,)wait with great anticipation.

    M M

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 7:54 p.m.



    Go ahead. Write just one reasonable, intelligent article. Just one. Prove me wrong. Jerry, do likewise. Don't hide. Don't dissemble. Come on now you three. Produce something. Anything. No?

    Stop deflecting, dodging, trying to shift the subject from you to me, and blog just one article.
    Just one. Pick one. Anything.

    We're all waiting.

  • Annonymous #2
    June 3, 2009 6:49 p.m.

    Why are you so obsessed with Marilyn and the Hollywoods? It appear you are a disgruntled X employ, is that true? What was your relationship with Jerry, Marilyn and the Hollywoods? Did you make confidential information Jerry had given you, about his family, public on this blog? Have you ever considered therapy?

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 6:39 p.m.

    Mom's Girl:

    There is a technical term that applies to your last blog: "Phooey!"

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 6:27 p.m.


    I want Kid Taylor to take a bow and you to take a hike. At no time did I ever take the position that Bill was Harry. Never. Try as you might to deflect the audience from your woeful inadequacies, the fact remains that, unless you can come up with one, single, well-written, well-researched, blog on a issue, you stand convicted of my charge of incompetence. Go ahead, Marilyn, prove me wrong. Write something of real worth. You too, Jerry. Stop hiding and dodging. Get in the game. Where oh where is Mike Karr? Mike had plenty to say when Jerry's oney was laying on the table and not yet picked up. Strangely, he is silent to the point of being comotose at the moment. Go ahead, you Nickle gang. Write just one thoughtful, well researched, factual, articulate blog. Just one. Don't answer my questions. Pick a topic of your own choosing. Go ahead. We're all waiting.

  • Mom's Girl
    June 3, 2009 6:10 p.m.

    I am not Marilyn

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 6:09 p.m.

    Kid Taylor:

    Take a bow. Folks, Kelly Taylor is the greatest LIVING Cowboy Detective, and unquestionably tied for first place with Charlie Siringo on the all time list, with Frank Dimaio being a very distant next best. Kid Taylor, alone, uncovered the Wayne County Court records for the trials of J. B. Buhr, Ella Moore, Blue John Griffith, and Silver Tip. The Kid has more honest history at his finger tips, out his back door, and in his saddle bag than Charles Kelly, Dan Buck, and Donna Ernst had, combined, on their best day --with help.

    The Kid sits tall in the saddle, guides a tenderfoot with compassion, answers any question put to him accurately and completely, and quite often goes into the San Rafael on foot, because a "horse slows me down".

    The Kid never lies, is truthful to a fault, is probably the most competent, intelligent, resourceful, kind, patient, and best looking human being the Almighty ever created.

    Kid, the one question I've had for better than two years is: "With all you have going for you, how did you ever get involved with the Hollywoods?"

  • Anonymous
    June 3, 2009 6:08 p.m.


    Wasn't this Bill Long, Harry Lonabaugh project originally a Jerry Nickle, Butch Iverson production? What Happened? Were you fired? you sound like a disgruntled ex-partner.

  • Kelly Taylor
    June 3, 2009 5:11 p.m.

    We worked many hours with these horses so they would make these jumps. When the outlaws were being chased they would make these jumps. The posses horses would not make these jumps so the boys made a successful escape. We take these horses by trailer to the Roost. When we unload them and saddle up they are rearing to go. They enjoy these rides as much as we do.
    We have two horses that will jump, with rider, into water becoming completely submerged, as you will see near the end of the clip.

  • Kelly Taylor
    June 3, 2009 5:10 p.m.

    I am the person that took Jerry and Butch to see the Butch Cassidy tree for their first. I am fifth generation Wayne County Utah native. My great grandfather George Morrell was the victim of Bill Longs pistol whipping in 1901 discussed here. I live two blocks from where that incident happened. Jerry and I are third cousins.

    When we get a chance my son West and I ride horses into the Robbers Roost. Do a web search for extremeoutlawrides and you will see photos and a film of our riding into the Roost. At 43 seconds you will see Butch Cassidys corral he and the outlaws used. At 1.04 is the Butch Cassidy Tree discussed here. At 3.14 is the cabin at Robbers Roost Ranch. At 3.20 is the Butch Cassidy corral again.

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 5:02 p.m.

    Mom's Girl:

    Good question. Several prints of the Fort Worth Five photograph exist in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, together with isolations of the five figures.

    Ms Ernst was first to give the date of the photograph as November 21, 1900, and not October as you blogged. Ms Ernst based her date on the basis of a Pinkerton Report obtained in December, 1902.

    The only question as to the date of the photograph was raised by me in 2007, Marilyn, so we needn't try to divert attention from your failure to answer questions directly by creating a new issue.

    Trust me. We are all truly breathless awaiting your response. You're not going to disappoint us once again, are you?

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 4:48 p.m.

    Mr. Boren:

    Sir, you may not remember our exchange in mid-2007 regarding the Bulldog Saloon photograph, however, I remember it very well. It is good to correspond again with you, Mr. Boren.

    I have no wish to mislead you. I am not a fan of your writings. At the moment I wish to challenge your Tom Vernon article regarding Parker/Cassidy's laison with a putative "Etta Place". What solid evidence can you offer us that your meeting with Vernon took place? Do you have supportive evidence of the laison? Is there ancillary evidence? Because your alleged meeting took place in the early 1960's you, like Marilyn Grace, have had more than enough time to uncover supportive evidence. While Jerry Nickle cowers behind the billowing and ample skirts of Marilyn Grace, would you favor the Blog audience with a response?

    Bye the bye, when I challenged your provenance for the Bulldog Saloon Photograph you ran like the proverbial scared rabbit --or Jerry Nickle, Marilyn Grace, or Mike Karr from a real question. Why? I would be simply devastated if you thought me a ruffian of the sort that would assault anyone, let alone beat them --to death.

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 4:18 p.m.

    Examples of this, I suggest, are Larry Pointer's contention that Phillips was Parker/Cassidy or Ms Meadows (Mrs Buck?)contention that Parker/Cassidy and Longabaugh died November 6, 1908 at San Vicente, Bolivia, or Ms/Mrs/ Author Ernst's (Donna? Donna Ernst? Sundance's great, great, great neice thrice removed by marriage?)contention that Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place (Ms Place? Mrs Place? Ethel Place?)visited PA in 1901 and again in 1902.

    No matter how fanciful, no matter how logically absurd these various contentions have proven to be, the fact is that they remain, and endure, if not for years then decades.

    I am easily proved wrong in my charge that you are not up to the task of informed, logical, well informed debate of the facts and issues. All you have to do is give our Blog Audience a demonstration of your competency. Better that than be tagged with incompetence when you never got in the game.

  • Mom's Girl
    June 3, 2009 4:07 p.m.

    Butch, Jerry, Dan
    There seems to be some doubts as to the Fort Worth Fives photograph actually being taken in Fort Worth on Oct 21 1900. Did one of you see the original photograph when you reviewed the Pinkerton files? I believe the original photograph would have the Studios identification stamp.

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 4:04 p.m.



    I'd like to have Jerry's, yours, and Mike's analysis, and I also requested that of Mr. Buck and Ms/Mrs/Author Ernst/Donna Ernst, et al. I asked questions that I have a good faith belief are reasonable and that I don't believe have been asked before.

    I further believe that since your involvement in July 2007 you have had more than ample time to both consider and research the issues, develop a line of argument based on analysis, and formulate clear cut opinions. That is what I am asking you to provide, and nothing more.

    My concern is that none of you Nickle team members have done your homework, and what precious little you have done was the result of misguided, wholly unprofessional, and entirely amatuerish undertakings. As I blogged to TCB and others, if you are guilty of my charge, then what you will foist on the public, however inaccurate, will be belived by some percentage of the public.

    Once a fantasy is put into the public consciousness, it is very much like a failed government program. It simply can not be done away with.

    Continued ........

  • Kerry Ross Boren
    June 3, 2009 3:44 p.m.

    I find the comments on Donna Ernst's writing most interesting. I know Donna and I am aware that her promising career was sullied by association with self-appointed "experts" Buck and Meadows upon whom she relies too much to her detriment. I have not yet read Harvey Lay Murdock's book but I know Harvey and I knew his mother Marvel very well, and I know that what he writes is from a unique perspective and I look forward to reading his account of his grandfather. I also know Jerry Nickle and his family and I applaud his efforts and wish him the very best in his pursuits. I do not necessarily agree with Jerry's hypotheses, but I greatly respect the honorable way in which he pursues it. In the process, he is revealing some important new and fascinating history. No matter who William Long really was, he was an exceptional character whose story needs to be told. Good luck, Jerry!

  • Ms, Mous
    June 3, 2009 2:27 p.m.

    "It isn't often we are treated to such penetrating analysis by the likes of Jerry coupled to the creative genius of Marilyn and Mike. I am positively breathless with anticipation." From our Butch.

    Butch, with your obvious delight in ridiculing the unfinished efforts of Mr. Nickle, perhaps you would obtain equal joy in sharing your views on the efforts (include only factual and accurate information) that we have seen from Donna Ernst and Dan Buck. From my humble information, it seems that if Mr. Nickle is totally wrong, has he not achieved the same degree of accuracy that Mr. Buck did? I await your reply with breathless anticipation.

    M M

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 11:30 a.m.

    The Ivory grips were a modification with walnut grips being the original grips on the weapon. In the same letter Emery, a former Sheriff and Bert Charter's son-in-law, wrote that "Mrs. Charter and Mary McGinnis (Elzy Lay's second wife, daughter of Kirk Calvert)are the only women that knew Etta (Place) in Price, Utah."

    2.) The "Butch Cassidy Tree" is one of four inscribed trees, each of which stands in perfect geographic relation to four known "Safe Havens" for the Wild Bunch in and around Robbers Roost.

    3.) Piss Ant Hill in the "Musen't Touch It" is at the intersection of four branches of the Outlaw Trail. Of particular note is that one of those trails leads to the site of Jeremiah "Kid" Jackson's blacksmith shop, one leads to Charlie Gibbons' Store, one leads to Giles, and one leads to the Jeffers Ranch. Each of these sites is replicated at the Butch Cassidy Tree site.

    I think you will find the Four Code, and how it was used by the Wild Bunch, a really fascinating subject.

    Are you a fan of Bletchley Park?

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 11:15 a.m.


    I'm not aware of anyone doing any work on the four code, and, aside from Siringo's Cowboy Detective description of it and that he communicated it to Elzy Lay in prison at the behest of Bert Charter and Jim Ferguson, I haven't found anything in print about it.

    My previous blog about it just touched on a very few items regarding it. Here are a few more items for us to consider:

    1.) According to Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, the famed Charter Pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, originally was made to order for Black Jack Ketchum and delivered to El Paso, TX. After Black Jack was hung, George West Musgrave obtained the gun. Musgrave married Jano Magor, sister to Maud Magor, Bert Charter's wife. Shortly after the marriage, Musgrave, fleeing a murder warrant, gave the Colt to Bert Charter to secure a $150 debt. I have it from an unimpeachable source that the inside of the Ivory grips on the Colt are inscribed with the Roman Numeral IV. Musgrave was the fourth man to join the High Five Gang.

    Continued .........

  • tartan cowboy
    June 3, 2009 10:13 a.m.

    would be very intrested in hearing your comments and about your findings re the four code.
    has anyone else out there in bloggsville got any info/comments on this.
    Ancient Mariner,you had some comments on this earlier, be glad of your input.

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 9:33 a.m.


    Thanks for your observations and information. I don't feel qualified to wade through issues of political correctness, a subject which I find mystifying and impenetrable. Therefore, if it is all right with the Bloggers on this site, may I simply be known as an uncultured, uncivilized, insensitive, uneducated, possibly chauvenistic bore who gives offense to everyone without regard to gender? That may excuse my bad behavior and help us get back on track in discussing and debating the issues raised on this site. Mea culpa.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 3, 2009 8:03 a.m.

    Butch: re the deyoung photograph, "looks more like an engagement ring on "Ethels'" finger.
    Re the "miss,mrs" matter:our culture/society has been taken over by something akin to a black ops sortie,it's called political correctness!though commendable in redefining equal opportunities and restoring a balance to the disadvantaged it can be,and often is, quite divisive.our ladies over here can be addressed ss they see fit and we respect that.

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 7:02 a.m.

    J A M:

    My apologies. I meant no disrespect. I was under the impression --apparently mistaken -- that the designation "Ms" was to be properly applied to both married and single females on the grounds that in modern times a woman's marital status ought not be a consideration in determining worth, i. e. a woman ought not to be defined by any reference to a husband or lack thereof. My belief --again apparently mistaken -- is that "Ms" is a replacement for, or proper substitution of "Mrs." and "Miss".

    I have no doubt that you are a far better student of Emily Post than I am.

    Would you be so kind as to tell me how this relates to the subject of this blog? Do you reccomend that we refer henceforth to Mrs Place, Mrs Porter, Mrs DuFran, and Mrs Curry?

    I expect a good many gentlemen contributors to this blog would benefit enormously from your genteel admonitions and corrections.

    What say you, TCB? What is the custom of the Scots and in Merry Olde?

  • Butch
    June 3, 2009 5:56 a.m.


    I have no quarrel with your summation of the common wisdom regarding alias Ethel Place. And, that is precisely the foundation of my questions: The common place is ... well, so very common.

    I am hopeful that Jerry and the Hollywoods present us all with a more Dan Brown-ish view. After all, Marilyn claimed on this blog she had "solved" the matter with pure science and that Jerry is, in fact, the grandson of Harry Longabaugh just as Jerry himself claims on his webpage.

    That being the case, I think it is very reasonable to believe that Cecile B. de Nickle and his Merry Blogger Band have inside information on exactly who his Grandpa was cavorting with in SA, and what became of her.

    Perhaps this can be done without damaging the pending Jerry Springer style broadcast where Jerry is "surprised" with the DNA test results. I certainly hope so. At the moment I am just all aflutter with anticipation. Be still my beating heart!

    It isn't often we are treated to such penetrating analysis by the likes of Jerry coupled to the creative genius of Marilyn and Mike. I am positively breathless with anticipation.

  • Just A Mous
    June 2, 2009 3:52 p.m.

    "Jerry, Marilyn, Mike, Mr. Buck, Ms Ernst, the podium is yours. Enlighten us!" From "Butch."

    As precise as you want to be, a slight hint. I believe your "Ms Ernst", is actually the wife of Paul Ernst, a claimed relative of Mr. Longabaugh. Making her a Mrs. Ernst.

    No I am not Mrs. Grace.

    You are most welcome.

    J A M

  • Butch
    June 2, 2009 2:31 p.m.


    I agree with you completely. Ethel doesn't look anything like a 19th/20th Century Working Girl.

    As for the rest? Well, what say you and I take a brief break and let the self appointed and annointed experts step to the fore?

    Jerry, Marilyn, Mike, Mr. Buck, Ms Ernst, the podium is yours. Enlighten us!

  • Ghosttown Bob
    June 2, 2009 2:01 p.m.

    TCB, Butch: Entertaining dialogue and questions posed recently. As for Ethel, I am interested in hearing Butch's view on the subject. My research indicates that she was, indeed a young prostitute in Ft. Worth when the Wild Bunch boys descended on the town. Also it is my view is that a substantial amount of cash left with Ethel when Sundance took her back to San Francisco in 1905. That, and BC's & SK's penchant for high living while in South America probably accounts for the rest of it.

    Post 1908 sightings of BC/SK are just that, sightings. Kind of like UFOs - - people keep reporting that they see them, but no actual written documentation that they came back.

  • tartan cowboy
    June 2, 2009 12:27 p.m.

    is there any documentation regarding BC/SK post november 1908?
    re SK unwilling to be photographed on his own and only having cash on the hip when "Ethel" was around,are you suggesting she was the driving force behind him?or that she controlled him? the letter to mrs davis does say that BC took only a third of the money from the dead uncle,so "Ethel was seemingly getting her cut.do you thin she ran off with the cash sometime after 1905.
    so what about the elusive miss place?are the boarding house ledger,the steam boat docket and the records from the 12,000 gold pieces deposit the only reference we have to this woman being called "Ethel"? where does the "Etta" come from?what is her origins?i don't buy into the "soiled" dove angle.going by photographs of prostitutes from the nineteenth century they were hard drinking hard living women who looked as though they could have held their own during 12 rounds with Francis L Sullivan!whats your thoughts?

  • tartan cowboy
    June 2, 2009 12:03 p.m.

    seems to be all going on during my sleep time.this time difference is is a pain!
    anonymous: thanks for the heads up on the books,will have to get ahold of the siringo memiors.as i said previously availability in scotland has always been poor.i can see i have alot of catching up to do.untill i do i don't have much to contribute except as Butch put it "dumb questions" i'm i'll have plenty of those!
    Butch:thanks for the sagely responses.
    if ,according to the pinkertons,charter was associated with those who launched the rio paraguay adventure it would be safe to assume Butch would glean a modicom of life in SA.perhaps even a visit or two?perhaps during conversations the way of life appealed to him,the social and economic structure made financial sense or maybe he thought if things went pear shaped eluding the law would be easier than dealing with the pinkertons.whatever the reason,it would seem less like a whim and more of a strategy.
    as regards the missing august 10 letter to utah,do we know what it's contents were?

  • Randall
    June 2, 2009 11:33 a.m.

    Why Don't You Fellars IM Text Message?
    I Hear It's "Really" Fun.
    The Rest Of Us Will Catch Butch And The Kid At The Kamas Flick.

  • Butch
    June 2, 2009 11:29 a.m.


    I certainly hope so.

  • Just A Mous
    June 2, 2009 10:53 a.m.

    "I suppose all of us are in for another Wooden Nickle history lesson and I'll be blamed for it. Excuse me. I need adult company. Bye-Bye." Per Butch (Mr. Iverson)

    "Adult company" and behaviour could be a help for you.

    J A M

  • Butch
    June 2, 2009 9:01 a.m.


    1.) According to "Dad's Guests At The Slater Store" Harry Longabaugh denied involvement in Winnemucca and slept in the stable "to save money".

    2.) In February, 1901, Harry, with Alias Ethel Place and Butch Cassidy, stayed in a posh boarding house in New York City and spent money at Tiffany's, a Doctor's office, and booked passage to Buenos Aires.

    3.) On or about March 23, 1901, Harry, along with alias Ethel Place deposited $12,000 in British Gold Notes in the River Platt Bank in BA.

    4.) Butch, alias Ethel Place, and Harry sold their Cholila ranch for a small fortune on or about June 1, 1905.

    5.) In 1907, after alias Ethel Place has disappeared, Roy Letson said Harry was "without funds, had a crust of bread in his pocket for his next meal."

    Dumb question: Why is Harry poor as a church mouse before and after he is with alias Ethel Place, but flush with cash and living high on the hog when she is around?

  • Butch
    June 2, 2009 8:15 a.m.


    1.) On October 2, 1897, Harry Longabaugh was taken to H. R. Locke's studio in Deadwood, South Dakota, to have his photo taken. Harry dropped his head and closed his eyes, rendering the photo unusable.

    2.) On or about November 21, 1900 Harry willingly sat for the "Fort Worth Five" photograph at John Swartz' Studio in Fort Worth.

    3.) In February, 1901, Harry Longabaugh willingly posed with alias Ethel Place for the DeYoung Photo at the DeYoung Studio in New York City.

    4.) In 1903/1904 Harry willingly posed for the "Picture Post Card" Photos at Cholila.

    My dumb questions:

    1.) What happened between 1897 and 1900 to turn Harry from being camera shy to a regular ham in front of a camera?

    2.)Is there any significance to the fact that either Butch and/or alias Ethel Place were in every photo taken of Harry from 1900 forward? That Harry was never photographed solo?

    3.) Can you see a wedding band on alias Ethel Place's ring finger, left hand, in the DeYoung photograph? I'm not seeing one.

    As always, your thoughts are welcomed.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 7:41 p.m.

    O. K. Substitute the word "documents". I'll stand by my statement. Jerry Nickle's theory is absurd. Anything else, Marilyn?

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 7:34 p.m.

    Groan! Come on, Jerry, no one than you and your Hollywoods think Butch was in Alma or Wilcox in 1901. It was fun when you played pretend, but this is just wasting time. You're simply mis-reading Siringo. Want proof? Read Page 368 of Cowboy Detective. Then take a look at the Justice Docket for Mamoth City, Juab County, Utah for January 2, 1900. There can't possibly any further confusion about where Siringo said Butch was in 1900-1901. You Marilyn and Mike need to get together and try real hard to think.

    I don't know if Harry ever had a leg wound. If he did there is no report or record of it and it never made it into any description of him. For the same reasons I have no idea if Harry had an owie on his big toe, warts on his bum, or a tat on his belly button. I'm sure that is all fraught with meaning and pregnant with possibilities for you. I suppose all of us are in for another Wooden Nickle history lesson and I'll be blamed for it. Excuse me. I need adult company. Bye-Bye.

  • Anonymous
    June 1, 2009 7:20 p.m.

    As I recall Jerry Nickle said the 1901 documents showing Butch in SA are forgeries not the Pinkerton memos.
    Thank You

  • Anonymous
    June 1, 2009 6:57 p.m.

    Thank you your clarification. Do you have an explanation why Siringo said Butch was in Alma New Mexico in probably early 1901 and why Blake Graham said he met him near Wilcox Arizona in May 1901?

    Did Harry ever get a bullet wound in his leg?

    Thank You

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 5:52 p.m.

    It seems to me that we can account for these rather glaring anomolies in one of two ways:

    1.) Jerry Nickle has advanced what I consider to be a fanciful and humorously outrageous theory that the Pinkerton documents are "forgeries". I think that is utter nonsense.

    2.) The anomolies are intentional and are observable indicia of an intelligent plan of designed action.

    I would welcome your views.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 5:46 p.m.

    1.) If we begin to unravel the story that Harry had a bullet wound in the leg -- or anywhere else, the Nickle gang is threatened by any discussion that might indicate Bill didn't get a leg wound at Cortez in 1891.

    2.) Once we start to firm up the presence of Harry and Butch in SA in 1901 and early 1902, the Nickle gang is threatened by Bill's presence in Fremont late in 1901.

    I wouldn't be too hard on Clara Bell. When a pet theory is on the verge of destruction, no matter how absurd or ill considered the theory is, tempers can flare.

    I hope I answered your question. Harry never intended to mis-direct the Pinkertons and Harry acted irrationally in pointing out the trail to Buffalo, and also told the Pinkertons he was in Argentina --and that he was married to alias Ethel Place. He sent the DeYoung Photo to Gillespie but not to his PA family. (Ernst, The Sundance Kid, Page 132)On two trips from Argentina to New York he never once visited his family --including 1902.

    Continued .........

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 5:30 p.m.


    You ask great questions. If my blog was read to mean that Harry's letters to Samanna and Gillespie were written to misdirect the Pinkertons I need to write with more clarity. I didn't mean that. What I thought I was responding to was your question regarding how the Pinkertons knew Harry was in Argentina.

    To the contrary, I don't believe that Harry was attempting to mis-direct the Pinkertons. What I did say -- and intended to say -- was that it was irrational for Harry to write a letter to Samanna that the Pinkertons were sure to discover that said, in effect: "You can get on my trail by looking at the Pierce Clinic in Buffalo". Both the letter to Gillespie and Samanna also told the Pinkertons exactly where Harry was --if not in the US --Argentina. The letters had the added effect of exposing Ms Ernst's ruse that Harry visited PA in January 1901.

    But the real reason "Clara Bell" and the rest of Jerry Nickle's merry blogger band are so upset with me is that they begin to see two dangers to their preposterous theory that Bill is Harry.

    Continued ...........

  • Anonymous
    June 1, 2009 4:51 p.m.

    Thanks for you information. I hope you will clarify this for me. If Sundance sent the Feb 1902 BA letter to misdirect the Pinkertons to search for him in the USA why did he send it from BA? Sending the letter from BA would have told the Pinkertons he was in BA, which he did not want.

    Clara Bell
    Will you please show us where Butch is lying if he is.

    Thank You

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 4:19 p.m.

    I agree with you, Clarra Bell, I'm not much of an historian. That is precisely why I need the help of you and others to guide me to the facts. Will you join in the discussion and debate?

  • Clarra Bell
    June 1, 2009 3:59 p.m.

    Does anyone else realize that Butch is on here in numerous personas even arguing with himself as one while he supports himself with another. Shame on you Butch. Lying, even to support what one thinks is right, is still lying. Not only are you not much of a historian, you are not very good at trying to psych people out with your games. Again, shame on you and all your personas.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 3:49 p.m.

    Lucky 13.) Lutefisk is North Atlantic Cod, soaked in lye, and sun dried on wooden racks. It is reconstituted by soaking three days in cold water, baked, and then served with boiled potatos. Although it is uncharitably called "fish Jello" by non-Scandanavians, it is the Norsk equivalent of Fish and Chips.

    I hope I answered your questions. It was very challenging. Thank you for the work-out.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 3:43 p.m.

    12.) The Key To Rebecca: The book of the same name is a primer for breaking the Four Code. For the most part The Key To Rebecca will tell you how to use a key to a book code. A book code is a variant of the "one time pad" system of encription. Hint: The missing portion of the August 10, 1902 letter to Mrs. Davis contained the Four Code message to Elzy Lay that Siringo wrote about. Mrs. Davis is the mother of Maud Davis Lay, Elzy's first wife (common law). At the time of Butch's letter Maud was married to Oran L. Cury, a Gilsonite mine owner.
    Cury was murdered February, 1903. The posse that chased the Winnemucca robbers recovered three sheets of blue stationary for Douglas Preston's Office. Preston and Mike Dunbar wrote to C. E. Rowe about "black stuff". Matt Warner claimed in "Bandit Rider" that he participated in bribing Elzy Lay out of prison by offering a Gilsonite mine to MN Governor Otero. Put it all together, crack the code, and you have a really wonderful solution to a great mystery.

    Continued ...............

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 3:24 p.m.

    I do not believe that Bert Charter was ever in South America. I am not aware of any Charter family tradition that Bert Charter was ever in South America.

    8.) Butch in SA: I believe the first time Butch was in SA was March, 1901. I think the evidence is quite strong, based on Pinkerton reports, that Butch made more than one trip from SA to the US and then back again.

    9.)The August 10, 1902 letter from Butch at Cholila to Mrs Davis in Utah is not, I believe, evidence that Butch was in SA prior to March, 1901. I believe it is very good evidence that Butch -- and Harry -- were in Chile at some point in 1901.

    10.)I believe Rio Paraguay disbanded by circa 1920. Butch and Harry sold Cholila in 1905 and their buyer continued operations until circa 1916. The Newberry operation in Rio Negro province appears to have continued into the post WWI era. I know of no evidence that the Cholila Ranch was ever involved in any illegal activities.

    11.) The Four Code: See Siringo, Cowboy Detective, Page 364.

    Continued ..........

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 3:05 p.m.

    Caution: Ms Ernst's evidence is quite thin and I am checking her citations with great care with the assistance of local experts. I'll report on what I find.

    5.)Two Cattle Operations: I believe that the Nichols/Hall-Newberry Patagonia operations 1887- 1910 are one you refer to and that the second is the Rickard/Musgrave -Farquart Rio Paraguay Operation circa 1910-1920.

    6.) The record of outlaw activities by North Americans in South America is fairly extensive. See Meadows, "Digging Up Butch and Sundance" for an impressive introductory list.

    7.) Bert Charter: A resident of the Little Snake until 1908, Charter was associated with all of the principal cattlemen, gamblers, and outlaws between 1887 and his death in the mid-1930s. Based on the 1908 Pinkerton Report cited and discussed earlier on this blog, Charter was associated with those who launched and acted in the Rio Paraguay venture. Bert Charter and George West Musgrave married sisters, Maud and Jano Magor. I think it would be fair to say that Bert Charter and Cassidy were linked at least by January, 1896 when Cassidy was released from the Penitentiary at Laramie. Perhaps earlier.

    Continued .................

  • Anonymous
    June 1, 2009 2:53 p.m.

    Another very good book is Anne Charters COWBOYS DONT WALK. She married into the Charter family.

  • Anonymous
    June 1, 2009 2:42 p.m.

    Siringos book COWBOY DETECTIVE is a very good book. It has a lot about Burt Charter and Butch Cassidy.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 2:33 p.m.


    1.) Keeping Track of Names: I set myself the task of re-creating the Pinkerton Files in their original cross-indexed form. I extended that system to include names, places, and events that do not appear in the Pinkerton files. My combined files are digitized. With a few key stokes I can call up a name and cross-filed information. Its very handy.

    2.) Damaio's notebook entry: I gave the entry in quotation marks exactly as Dimaio wrote it. I am a real stickler for exact words in documents, precise accurate citations to documents, and non-manipulation of evidence.

    3.) Harry close to family: I don't know how close Harry was or felt to his family. Most evidence suggests he had a special relationship with Samanna and Elwood. Perhaps Harvey as well. His relationship to his parents and Emma may have been distant.

    4.)Evidence connecting Harry to Eastern Wyoming, Keeline Ranch, and Lusk: I refer you to Ms Ernst's "The Sundance Kid" pages 28-29 and notes 1 and 2, Chapter 5, Page 207.

    Continued ..........

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 2:07 p.m.

    2.) If Dimaio's notebook entry is a valid and accurate reference to a mail cover on Samanna Hallman which was reported on April 3, 1902, then the origin of the letter (Argentina)and the contents (indicating Argentina)would have been known to the Pinkertons.

    Therefore, my conclusion is that there were two sources of information about Harry being in Argentina: 1.) The Letter to David Gillespie; and 2.) The letter to Samanna Longabaugh Hallman.

    I hope I answered your question satisfactorily.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 1:58 p.m.


    Thank you for your interest and question. I was hoping to get another discussion going and you granted me my wish. Great question by the way.

    1.) On Page 14 of Early Day History Of The Little Snake River Valley by John F. Gooldy it says:"An employee of Robert McIntosh received a letter from Harry from Walcott, Colorado, (I presume on or about November 5, 1900)and one from him in New York City, with a picture of him and his wife, saying he had married a Texas lady he had known previously. (I presume on or about February 19, 1901) A year from that time ( I presume February -March, 1902) another letter came from South America, in which he asked how things were in the valley." I believe best reading of the evidence is that Gooldy was refering to David Gillespie. If so, and because Gillespie received the DeYong photograph and it somehow got to the Pinkerton Agency, I believe it is reasonable to deduce that the SA letter was also known to the Pinkertons, and hence, that Harry Longabaugh was in Argentina.

    Continued ......

  • tartan cowbow
    June 1, 2009 1:19 p.m.

    or maybe he'd just found the spread he'd always wanted.did they(BC/SK) resume their association with the other factions once in SA?when did the other companys disband?was the ranch at cholila used by these groups as arelay for stolen horses/cattle?
    dont have "magnificent rube" or "goldfield" will check out summary on web.
    still intrigued as to meaning of four code/the keys to rebecca!
    look forward to your comments,butch.
    ps.what is lutefisk?

  • tartan cowboy
    June 1, 2009 1:08 p.m.

    butch:wow.theres more names here than in a russian novel!how do you keep track of them?
    re dimaios notebook.does it state "left pa 16 years ago" or "that he hadn't been back in 16 years" how close was Harry to his family? what records are available re his presence in wyoming,and in particular with the keeline ranch?
    what tou seem to have is at least two groups of cattle companys with strong links to SA.were they actively stealing horses across SA? is there any SA archive reporting their activities?what year was charter linked to snake river company?what year does BC and charters paths cross.any family tradition through charters that he frequented SA.this could make astrong case for BC also following suit.if tie ins are made it would suggest BC/SK did not travel there on a whim.isn't there a letter from BC when in cholila that says "i've been looking for a place like this for 20 years"does that suggest this was the first time he'd been there? maybe just the first time he'd seen that territory.continued...

  • Anonymous
    June 1, 2009 1:06 p.m.

    Did the Pinkertons discover B&S went to Argentina because of the letter Sundance wrote from BA February 25 1902? I assume it had an Argentine stamp and post mark.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 11:56 a.m.


    I read your blog carefully. Good job on the Zerelda Sammuel comment!

    One of the people I'm most interested in is George Lewis "Tex" Rickard and his involvement with the Musgrave/Snake River/Cattlemen in Paraguay. Rickard, who might well have been born the very time that Mrs Samuel's cabin was blown up, was intimately connected to Susan Lavinia James and her husband,Allen H. Parmer, a former member of Quantrille's Raiders, and who went to Texas with the Rickards in tow. Parmer later became associated with the Texas ranching interests that fed the maw of Wild Bunch catle rustling. Rickard, of course, went on to Alaska where the evidence is fairly good that he was visited by Bert Charter and later associated with Charter and Cassidy, along with Tom and Mid Nichols in Nevada before spearheading the effort in Paraguay.

    The connection of James, Parmer, Rickard, Nichols, Musgrave, Cassidy,and Charter I believe, should be more fully explored. I'm very interested to know what you have to say about the matter.

    Do you have "Magnificent Rube" by Samuels? "Goldfield" by Zanjani? They might interest you.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 11:31 a.m.

    I ask that question in view of my earlier debate with Mr. Buck on the 1887 Tom Nichols/Hall -Newberry cattle raising venture in SA. I find it interesting and worthy of exploration that, with Dimaio's notebook entry, we have another link to an association between Harry Longabaugh, the Keeline Ranch, and 1886/87 Eastern Wyoming and Argentina.

    It seems more credible to me that Butch and Harry had a long association with Wyoming future Wild Bunch members and South America than that they went to SA on a whim or mere guess that they could evade capture. If I was going to commit a crime or if my continued freedom depended on non-discovery and apprehension, I would associate with people I knew well, trusted, and had a reasonable belief that they were allies based on long association. In short, I would be mistrustful of strangers and the unknown.

    For that reason I was surprised by those on this blog who wanted to stop discussion on Wyoming 1886/1887. I think we have a good deal more to learn here. I value what others have to say and think. I'd very much like to read that.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 11:19 a.m.


    My apologies in return. If my blog was read as meaning that you were goading me, then I'm afraid I wasn't very clear. That statement was directed at two of my pals, Barbarella and Ancient Mariner, not at you.

    That you want to discuss the material and evidence further is, to me, an indication that there is room among us for a book or books that does just that. Overall, the system of discussion and debate of the issues, evidence, and information benefits everyone --wanna be writers included -- and helps sharpen the arguments of those who wish to put forth a theory into the public arena.

    I am always comforted by the adage: "The only dumb question is the one that was never asked." I have a lot of dumb questions, and when I ask them in a public forum such as this blog, I usually get a plethora of answers. That helps me a great deal.

    As to Dimaio's notebook entry regarding a 16 year absence from PA, or an 1886 departure, do you agree that this is more evidence that we need to look more carefully into 1886/1887 Wyoming?

    Continued ....

  • tartan cowboy
    June 1, 2009 10:46 a.m.

    tm:i'm on the side of truth.
    apologies was not my intention to goad you into disclosures prematurely.there seems very much to be inconsistencies in reports.i'm sure sundance would be well aware of the pinkertons' unethical and criminal procedures during investigations.zerelda samuel would attest to that.it's quite probable that bc/sk were so full of paranoia that every stranger would be seen as a potential threat so therfor why announce in advance your arrival to the very people you've traveled "thousands" of miles to avoid?
    i would enjoy further discussion on the material available.i whole heartidly agree that all info has to be put forward and not just selected citations to enhance or move someones own subjective work forward in a manner akin to fitting square pegs into round holes!what print medium would your findings be on?

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 8:04 a.m.

    If, on the other hand, we view Longabaugh's letter as a first telling of his leg wound and subsequent treatment in Buffalo, and discount a January 1901 visit to Samanna as never having taken place except in the mind of Ms Ernst, the letter makes sense.

    The question I have for you TCB is really quite simple. Would you like further discussion of the issue of Frank Dimaio's notebook pages? Because you have an open mind, are you led toward a robust discussion and debate regarding the issue, or, are you content with the characterization of it put forward by "experts" and author's?

    My question is an honest one. You are a member of the reading public and you have an interest in Western History. I would like to put my investigation and analysis into print in such a way and using such methodology as people with discerning and open minds find interesting, helpful, and informative.

    It is my opinion that if we all look carefully at the whole body of evidence, discuss it and debate it, we shall all benefit enormously from the exercise. What say you, my Tartan friend?

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 7:50 a.m.

    Dimaio's notebook Page 3 also says:

    1.) Longabaugh "Left PA 16 years ago" and;

    2.) "wrote 2 years ago to his sister Sammana who is Mrs O. J. Hallman Montclair PA may be writing him now."

    If the April 3, 1902 mailcover resulted in a report that Longabaugh left PA 16 years previously --1886 - then Longabaugh did not spend 1882-1886 with his cousins in SW Colorado, but arrived in the west in eastern Wyoming near Lusk as detailed in Ms Ernst's new book.

    Then too, if Longabaugh left PA in 1886, what are we to make of Ms Ernst's contention that he visited his PA relatives in January, 1901, told them he had a leg wound, and then ran off to the Pierce Clinic to have it treated. If that were true, why would he write a letter to his sister saying, once again, that he had an unspecified wound received in the west and had (past tense)it treated in Buffalo? He wouldn't, of course, if he had in fact visited his sister in January, 1901, and said the very same thing.

    Continued .....

  • SLC gal
    June 1, 2009 7:36 a.m.

    TM - just do what I do, read the article, look at the photos and make your own comparisons. To me it doesn't look like rocket science, the resemblance is striking.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 7:33 a.m.

    Thus, on the very day that Longabaugh and alias Place arrived in New York, Pinkerton received a report that Samanna received a letter from her brother in which he said that he had a pistol shot wound received in the west treated at the Pierce facility in Buffalo.

    Allowing for mailing time from Buenos Aires to NYC and then transit to Philadelphia and subsequent transit to Montclair, I concluded that Samanna's letter was mailed from BA on or about February 25, 1902. If true, Longabaugh mailed his letter a week prior to his departure. And, if that is true, then we have Longabaugh setting the Pinkerton Hounds on his trail in the U.S. well in advance of his leaving the safety of South America and arriving in NYC a relatively short distance from the Pinkerton NYC office. Is that rational? If you were an escaping felon who had fled to SA to avoid prosecution, would you write a letter putting detectives on your trail? Before you arrived back in the U. S.?

    But there is more.

  • TM
    June 1, 2009 7:28 a.m.

    Let me the first:
    TM= Tom Mason,(Just someone interested in western lore) "waiting for DNA results" Leaning towards "J". The older photo of long with wife sure resembles all the photo's I've seen of Longabaugh. As for all the banter back and forth about where Longabaugh was and when... does not come across as hard or indisputable evidence and open for some debate and or questioning. Having said that I certainly appreciate the efforts, time and expense that both sides have made and continue to make to state their case.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 7:17 a.m.

    A "Mail Cover" was a standard clandestine operation in which a postal employee --in this case at either the Montclair or Philadelphia Post Office -- was employed to steam open Hallman mail, read the contents and forward a record of it to the closest Pinkerton Regional Office -- Philadelphia in this case.

    We know that Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place boarded S. S. Soldier Prince in Buenos Aires on March 3, 1902 and arrived in New York City on April 3, 1902. Pinkerton, New York Office, Cable Traffic Log, Frank P. Dimaio, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 1902, Page 1 of 2, Container 87, Folio 2; Report of Frank P. Dimaio, September 17, 1941, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Page 2 of 3, Container 89, Folio 13; Pinkerton Report, July 29, 1902, New York Office, Criminal History Number 711, Harry Longabaugh et. al, Cross Index File Criminal History George Parker, Container 93, Folio 4, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington D. C.

  • TM
    June 1, 2009 7:13 a.m.

    For all of us "Less informed". Could someone please take a momment and reveal the names of our bloggers? For those that have joined in late and to better follow the postings; a listing of the cast of characters would be most appreciated. It might also me helpful if when identified we know for sure who is in whose camp and those that have not taken a side as yet. A simple, "J" for Jerry and or a "B" for Buck after the revealing should do nicely I think.

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 6:51 a.m.

    It merely means that I could not find it. If in fact the original report does not exist, then, Mr Buck and Ms Ernst have mischaracterized a notebook reference to report as being a "Pinkerton Report".

    There is more.

    The Piece facilities in Buffalo were two in number. The medical clinic was located at 80 West Seneca Street while the Pierce Invalid's Hotel was located 9 1/2 blocks away at 653-655 Main Street. The Hotel catered not only to patients at the clinic but to travelers not using the services of the clinic. On Page 5 of the material there exists what purports to be a copy of the registration of "Ethel Place (next line) H. A. Place", however judging from the paper size and quality this appears to be a tracing from the hotel registry. If so, then what we have is evidence of Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place at the Hotel but not necessarily at the clinic.

    Because Dimaio wrote in the past tense there is a strong indication that the notation referencing the "report" constitutes a Pinkerton "Mail Cover" on Samanna Longabaugh Hallman.

    Continued ......

  • Butch
    June 1, 2009 6:36 a.m.


    There is always a danger when p[osing that others --"in the loop" as you said --jump ahead and try to goad one into making premature statements. Never-the-less, I'll do the best job I can, at this point, of demonstrating what Barbarella and Ancient Mariner might have been discussing.

    I'll turn to "Detective Dimaio's Notebook Page With Comment on Sundance Kid, 1900", Container 93, Folio 4, Five Pages, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

    On Page 3, sequentially, at the top of notebook Page 3, Dimaio wrote: "Report J. T. C. apr 3/1902" and then went on to note:"Its believed was (past tense) in Hospital Past Summer 1901 (circled in the original)in Buffalo NY pistol shot wound (location not specified)he said he got in extreme West...."

    This is the origin of what Ms Ernst and Mr Buck claim to be a "Pinkerton Report" regarding treatment at the Pierce Medical Clinic in Buffalo.

    I looked carefully through the records and was not able to find J. T. C.'s original report. That does not mean it is not there.

    Continued ........

  • tartan cowboy
    May 31, 2009 2:27 p.m.

    barbarella:sounds exciting,is this news with reference to mr long?when can we expect it and by whom?
    butch:hoping for third time lucky.i have no objection whatsoever being addressed as tcb.look forward to your views on photo.with reference to four code/the keys to rebecca.i'm flummoxed!the only things i can think of off the top of my head is
    four code pertaining to the human gene/dna,and if memory serves,a group in mexico conserving knowledge/tradition.re rebecca,the only thing i can think is the novel.all of the aforementioned concern seeking truths,intrigueand revealing secrets.am i to believe pandoras box is about to be opened?sounds as though ancient mariner is in the loop.so what is your thoughts on what happened to bc/sk?i know you don't believe it was henry long.what about the elusive miss place?
    cheers tcb.

  • tartan cowboy
    May 31, 2009 1:26 p.m.

    butch; last two posts have not made it.will see if this gets on then get back to you.

  • Barbarella
    May 30, 2009 9:01 p.m.

    I know for a fact that we're all going to get something very special on this blog very soon. Amazin Grace, Mad Mike, and Jerry Nickle are really going to hate it. Stay in touch.

  • Ancient Mariner
    May 30, 2009 8:36 p.m.

    My Boys.

    Neither of you have an inkling how long I have waited for your arrival. The four code is, quite naturally, 3-6-4. The Keys to Rebecca await those who chance to wander.

  • Butch
    May 30, 2009 8:09 p.m.

    Tartan Cowboy:

    Please let me know if you would be offended if I addressed you as "TCB". We Yanks have a tendency toward informality and enough rough edges to frost the tails on a diplomat's coat at the Court of St. James. We mean no offense. We're merely not understood by those across the pond.

    True, our lesser angels, Buck, Ernst, and Patterson by default, Jerry, Amazin' Grace and Mad Mike, ply a trade of deception and lies by omission, commission and synthesis, never-the-less, there remains a core of unbridled optimists who persevere despite the odds.

    Tell me Sir, do you know either the four code or the Keys to Rebecca? Let me know and we shall talk privately.

  • Butch
    May 30, 2009 2:07 p.m.

    Tartan Cowboy:

    I just now managed to purchase a copy of "Outlaws" by Eamon O'Neill. Shipping may take a few days, but if you still want my opinion on the photograph when the book arrives, I'll be more than happy to give it to you.

    As far as discussing books in the works, you might have me confused with Jerry. If I'm certain of my position and feel I've investigated the matter completely I don't mind a bit putting the material out in public for discussion. Indeed, I prefer to do that.

    The doctor's mistakes we bury,
    The lawyer's mistakes we hang,
    The journalist's mistakes we print.

    Its worse, of course, if you write a book shot full of errors because unlike a journalist who can print a correction the next day, an author's error has eternal life.

    Shelly's Three Keys To Immortality:

    Father a son.
    Plant a tree,
    Write a book.

    In my opinion it is much better to throw one's work out for public debate than closeting yourself with your editor and being forced to live with the consequences for eternity.

    All Hail Bobby Burns!

  • tartan cowboy
    May 30, 2009 12:09 p.m.

    butch; your comments are very insightful into the motives and psyche of a certain group who ride the historical plains.i know you have been reluctant to discuss your book,but i would look forward very much to reading it.any publish date as yet? thank you very much for your warm welcome,first time i,ve done anything like this and know i have not even scratched the surface on reading material.availability here in scotland is poor the internet should take care of that. any views on the photo in the eamonn oneill book outlaws?

  • Ancient Mariner
    May 30, 2009 6:21 a.m.

    Tartan Cowboy:

    The idea of an author saying "Most of what follows is true," is a good one. However,that statement would be valid only for a small fraction of books published on the subject. For the vast majority of the material out in public as well as that yet to come, I think a more accurate disclaimer would be: "A miniscule part of the following might be true."

  • Butch
    May 30, 2009 6:10 a.m.

    For those of us who contend that both Butch and Sundance survived South America, the preposterous and fanciful pose great danger because we fear that Mr Buck, as well as his two supporters, might tar us with the same brush applied to the Charlatans. Hence, we expose the falacious while we disassociate ourselves from it, and, at the same time encoure distribution of everyone's books or films.

    Blogs such as this one help some of us sharpen our arguments by putting them forth for public debate. During the course of that debate we all benefit because very good minds on both sides of the primary issue of contetion add immeasurable amounts of factual context, and that dramatically increases our knowledge base.

    When Marilyn and Jerry attempt to stiffle debate on any issue, fail to directly answer a question put forward, or put forward absurdities designed to deflect attention from insurrmountable obstacles they have, they do not advance the cause of knowledge.

    Discerning and open minds deeply involved in the debates on this blog benefit us all.

    Again, welcome Tartan Cowboy, a very hearty welcome!

  • Butch
    May 30, 2009 5:52 a.m.

    Marilyn, you're dead wrong. I've never once posted under "Anonymous" and leave that boring name exclusively to you.

    Tartn Cowboy: A good many of us are delighted to have you with us and get a Tartan perspective on history.

    Regarding your statement that "every theory to the non historian ... sounds plausible": No matter how absurd a theory, no matter how preposterous what passes as "proof" to support a theory, some given number of people will believe it. What ever the number of supporters, they constitute another group whose minds must be changed if truth is to win out in the end. Sadly, later "experts" and authors will either quote or cite to the Charlatan in print and if really egregious errors become "entrenched" it is through this process.

    I'd like to point out that there is a great difference between having an open mind such as yours and having a mind incapable of discerning obvious falsehood, as a very small group of people do.

    Rather than damage our precious First Amendment rights with an attempt at prior censurship, we who are serious, seek to expose nonsense in advance of distribution and disassociate ourselves from it.

    Continued ........

  • tartan cowboy
    May 30, 2009 1:47 a.m.

    ancient mariner: thanx for the welcome.
    as a lay person with an open mind i think the order of the day should be objectivity.having read the postings to date and following the text and sub text its clear debunking someones research is not always about simply questioning the validity of gathered material but about dry gulching others findings in order to further entrench their own fixed ideas.every theory to the non historian like me sounds plausible.perhaps evary author should begin their book by saying "most of what follows is true"

  • Ancient Mariner
    May 29, 2009 6:38 p.m.

    Welcome Tartan Cowboy. Good to have you with us.
    I'll wager we're about to get some fresh information as soon as we can get Ms Grace quieted down. Until then I'm afraid you're in for a bit of a yawn.

  • Anonymous
    May 29, 2009 6:27 p.m.

    Barbarella states: "I have read this blog from start to finish and I take it that Anonymous is Marilyn Grace."

    Shows what you know Barbie, most of us can't count the different "Anonymous" posters that join in. Got any other idea's?

    Butch (aka anonymous.)

  • Marsh
    May 29, 2009 6:20 p.m.


    I agree completely. It isn't credible at all that Jerry Nickle actually believes Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh. I think what is going on here is a little spoof of the sort that Kerry Ross Boren puts out from time to time. We do get the bonus of real debate with facts from well informed individuals. I find that very interesting. Good job Deseret News.

  • Barbarella
    May 29, 2009 5:52 p.m.

    I have read this blog from start to finish and I take it that Anonymous is Marilyn Grace.

    If Jerry Nickle actually "believed/believes" Bill Long is Harry A. Longabaugh after reading this blog, then QUICK! everybody, lets get the poor man into therapy.

    Unfortunately, there are those poor bored souls who will watch anything put on TV. Ice Road Truckers and Monster Quest spring immediately to mind. I suppose "Jerry Nickle Gets Surprised When Told Bill Long is Really Bill Long" could be fit between those two programs and the four members of the audience could then find out:

    1.) Big Foot doesn't live in Alberta.
    2.) Bill Long is not Harry Longabaugh.
    3.) The ice road truckers don't drown.

    Wow! Imagine that!

  • Bob Jayne
    May 29, 2009 5:07 p.m.

    May I be allowed to mention a new book by Diana Allen Kouris? RIDING THE EDGE OF AN ERA. 800 552 7819 I also have enjoyed reading, more than once, her book, THE ROMANTIC AND NOTORIOUS HISTORY OF BROWN'S PARK. Her family lived, and I believe still resides along the river in the park. A beautiful area. Her gentle, kind style of writing, telling of actual experiences and the real life of her family, in Brown's Park (hole), is very entertaining. And if Diana wrote it, that is the way it was. She might even mention something about our friends, Butch (Robert), Sundance (Bill or Harry).

    Hope some of you will be able to enjoy her work.

    Thank you.

    Bob Jayne

  • Anonymous
    May 29, 2009 4:50 p.m.

    Did anyone really think we would know the results of the DNA before they aired the program? That isnt the way it works in Hollywood. The blog is free publicity, and in their world, theres no such thing as bad publicity. I suspect Jerry Nickle wont know the results until shortly before the airing, so they can film his reaction in time to include it. I know Jerry Nickle honestly believed/believes that Bill Long was Harry Longabaugh. Personally, I think we should all be thankful that Jerry Nickle was willing to pursue his belief as far as he did, no matter what the outcome is, otherwise those of us who love western outlaw history, may never have had the opportunity to present new evidence in a public forum, such as this blog. I think all of us, including Ghosttown Bob, would agree that we have all benefited and learned a great deal from this blog.

  • tartan cowboy
    May 29, 2009 1:47 p.m.

    oops! just realised your blog time is around 7 hours behind here not ahead,so u should all be wide awake.

  • Anonymous
    May 29, 2009 1:30 p.m.

    "is this a very much alive butch cassidy in 19.10" its an uncanny likeness.does dan or anyone know if photo comparisons have been done?

    Good luck Tartan Cowboy. Don't hold your breath till dan agrees that it is our pal Butch in a 1910 photo. Enjoy yourself.

  • tartan cowboy
    May 29, 2009 12:45 p.m.

    just got rigged up with net 7 days ago,as a big wild west fan i,m enjoying this blog immensely. you,ll all get this post 2moro as i,m writing from scotland .i,d like to digress if you,ll indulge me.has anyone looked at the photograph in eamonn o,neills book outlaws?it, says "is this a very much alive butch cassidy in 19.10" its an uncanny likeness.does dan or anyone know if photo comparisons have been done?anyone know history of photo? would appreciate an answer. to jerry hope your claims are substantiated, would throw the whole debate into the stratosphere,good luck.thanks to all in anticipation.

  • Anonymous
    May 29, 2009 10:02 a.m.

    Where were all you know it all's/experts when the excavating was going on in So Am ? It is Mr. Nickle's buck (of course, no pun intended) let him spend it as he sees fit. Get off his back.

    If you don't like his program, switch stations.

  • lhayden
    May 28, 2009 7:42 p.m.

    I wonder why my comments of May 27 weren't posted? I followed the instructions to the letter...

  • Jimlyn
    May 28, 2009 4:13 p.m.

    I don't know what is on the menu, crow or moose stew,but isn't about time that dinner is served?

  • TM
    May 28, 2009 1:51 p.m.

    Kid Crow...for an old timer you are certainly intitled to your opinion; I too enjoy this blog. However, for a "old timer" I'm somewhat suprised by the tone you take..that of "all knowing". I would think you would know like the rest of us that hard facts on this subject are rare. I welcome your comments as much as all the others..but place not a lot of value on yours over that of anyone elses. Let the DNA settle the Longabaugh/Long question as it should.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 27, 2009 5:53 p.m.

    I will give you a hint, his initials are DB

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 27, 2009 5:45 p.m.

    We will see who eats crow and it won't be me.

  • Kid Crow
    May 27, 2009 12:59 p.m.

    We started out on this blog with Marilyn Grace crowing about having solved the Bill Long/Harry Longabaugh case. After we discussed Harry being at the Little Snake on June 28, 1897 and Bill Long pistol whipping George Morrell late in 1901, Ms Grace was forced to eat crow and begged us to "give it a rest", i.e. close off discussion. Jerry Nickle claims to be having a good time with the Hollywoods while his film and book projects are routinely savaged on this blog. Is Jerry's euphoria the result of taking a few hits off a bottle of Old Crow?

    This old Crow is of that golden age when a public school education consisted of being taught how to think and not what to think. We also learned to have reverence for truth and American history.

    Does it matter? For a good many of us old timers it matters a lot. If I have a vote I want to cast it in favor of continuing debate on this blog.

    Unsolicited advice to Ms Grace: Don't quit your day job. You're not ready for prime time.

  • Anonymous
    May 26, 2009 7:31 p.m.

    "Does it really change the course of history significantly? Does it really matter in any material way?"

    What difference, might want to ask Buck and Ernst that question. If the embers aren't stirred, the fire will go out. No fire, no book sales.

  • What difference?
    May 26, 2009 5:59 p.m.

    What difference would it really make if Butch or Sundance were one of a dozen people? Does it really change the course of history significantly? Does it really matter in any material way? I think the conjecture is entertainmenty and thats what keeps this thread going.

  • Anonymous
    May 26, 2009 5:23 p.m.

    "Let it rest." Excellent idea Cheyenne.

    I believe I heard, that is exactly what Mrs. Dora Flack said.

  • Denver
    May 26, 2009 4:38 p.m.


    Unless you know "the truth about Butch and Sundance" how do you know it would be boring? The only people on this blog who claim to know "the truth" are Marilyn Grace and Jerry Nickle and possibly Mike Karr. Our intrepid Hollywoods make the claim that truth consists of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh, that 1901 Pinkerton reports are "forgeries", that Luzernia got pregnant without Bill Long being present (immaculate conception?)and that we all ought to drop further inquiry into their preposterous story.

    Cheyenne, that is anything but boring. Hilarious? Yes! Outrageous? Yes! Slapstick History? Yes! Serial Intellectual Pratfalls? Oh, Yes! But never boring. No, not boring at all!

    If you really think that the Bill Long story as told by Marilyn, Mike, and Jerry is boring, then I would love to know your opinion of Harry Reed. Care to share?

  • Cheyenne
    May 26, 2009 11:40 a.m.

    If the truth about Butch and Sundance was ever found out how boring it would be. After all what would people have to speculate about. Let it rest.

    May 23, 2009 6:22 p.m.

    To Ghosttown Bob-----the facts and data you have amazes me----you should put this all in a book

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 22, 2009 3:18 p.m.

    The problem here is which set of reports, documents, histories are the most credible, and are based on the most factual information that can be verified from outside sources. One set, principally from the Denver office, claims that Longabaugh and Parker were in New Mexico, Utah, or Wyoming in 1901 1902, while the New York office, supplemented by the Diamaio report claimed that they had been in New York, then Argentina during this same time period. If you believe the Denver office reports, then Longabaugh could have been Bill Long who then, could have been in Fremont, Utah beating up on George Morrell in Oct of 1901. But you have to disregard the New York reports completely. Now if you believe the New York and Dimaio reports, then Longabaugh could not possibly have been in Fremont head banging with George Morrell, now way, no how.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 22, 2009 3:17 p.m.

    These three reports/histories are the ones that those who follow the conventional wisdom use to show that Parker, Longabaugh and Place were in New York in early 1901, and left for Argentina of Feb. 20th, 1901. Notice that all six of these documents cover roughly the same time period, early 1901 through mid 1902. Since none of these portions of the Pinkerton agency were really coordinating with each other, no wonder the Agency as a whole was confused for a time, including William A. Pinkerton himself.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 22, 2009 3:16 p.m.

    Lastly, following up on the New York information, the Pinkerton Agency through one of their operatives in Rio de Janeiro, Frank Diamaio, who traveled to Buenos Aires in March of 1903, found evidence of Parker, Longabaugh and Place in Argentine records. In May, 1903 Diamaio wrote a handwritten report which included the following: Record of Longabaugh and Place sailing to the U.S. in March 1902 aboard the S.S. Soldier Prince. Documents in the Colonial Land Department dated 2 April 1902 that Place & Ryan had settled of four square leagues of land near Cholilo. That Harry A Place opened an account with the London $ River Plate Bank March 23 1901. On May 6, 1902 they cashed a check for $3,546, dated April 2, 1902, made by one, signed by another. This was dated when Longabaugh was enroute to New York. That Longabaugh and Place arrived back in Argentina Aug 9, 1902 aboard the Honorius and that they were listed as purser and stewardess on the ship.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 22, 2009 3:15 p.m.

    They were later able to get a description from hospital officials of Longabaugh and Place, identified as Harry A Place and Mrs. Harry A. Place from treatments they received in May of 1902. This description appeared on all of the Pinkertons wanted circulars of Parker and Longabaugh, and Place for the next few years.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 22, 2009 3:13 p.m.

    The New York Criminal History detailed what the New York office was able to ascertain about the photograph and Longabaugh, Parkers, and Places activities in New York. Among the information they found were that the photo was taken at the DeYoung Studio in New York City, that during Feb. 1901 under the name of Harry E. Place he and Ethel whom was believed to be his wife, lived at the boarding house of a Mrs. Taylor, that Longabaugh was treated at the Pierce Medical Institute in Buffalo, New York, and again by a Dr. Weinstein in New York City, and that they left for Argentina on Feb. 20, 1901, returned to New York on board the steamship Soldier Prince 3 April 1902, and lastly that George Parker under the name of Ryan was also with Longabaugh and Place in New York, sailed with them to Argentina, but did not return with then in 1902.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 22, 2009 3:12 p.m.

    Thanks Hitch for the nice comment. Here's more:

    Around this same time Longabaugh apparently wrote a friend, presumably David Gillespie of the Little Snake River Valley, and enclosed a picture of himself and a woman he identified as his wife, whom he said, he had met previously in Texas. The letter and picture were passed on to the Pinkerton agency, again apparently by Gillespie. The picture was traced back to New York where the New York office undertook an investigation. The New York offices investigation resulted in their issuing their own Criminal History on Longabaugh dated July 29, 1902.

  • Hitch
    May 22, 2009 9:38 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    I believe your most recent post is of great value for those of us interested in the Wild Bunch. In the same vein, I would like to add that reports from the New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago offices were mixed into the reports from the Denver office. Then too, Argentine, Chilean, Bolivian government officials and law enforcement officers added their reports and information.

    If we consider that the Wild Bunch, or members of it, operated from circa 1885 through circa 1920 on two continents, I find it absolutely incredible that we know as much as we do about them. I also believe that all of us should compliment every author for their attempts to unravel the story.

    You've added a lot to our understanding of the Wild Bunch. Thank you.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 22, 2009 8:25 a.m.

    (The following paragraph should be inserted between the 1:34 and 1:36 pm May 21st posts. )

    Now the source of this problem comes from the files of the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. The Pinkertons, as they were known were employed by several of the railroad companies to track down the bands of railroad thieves, of which the Wild Bunch was one, and eliminate or bring them to justice. Their investigations and pursuit of were widespread involving many different regional Pinkerton offices, many of which did not necessarily coordinate with each other. The Denver Office led the hunt in the West for the Wilcox and Tipton train robbers, and the Winnimucca Bank robbery, all of which were attributed to various members of the Wild Bunch.

  • Anonymous
    May 22, 2009 7:55 a.m.

    Would you forgive Mrs. Grace if she just wrote a book about her trip (travels) to Utah? As others have done.

  • Kid Montana
    May 21, 2009 7:38 p.m.


    If you had been paying attention --beyond your ability regarding an attention span --you would have noticed that after the 1909 Pinkerton report was introduced on this blog, no one --except you --ever thought that Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh didn't return from South America.

    Please do try and keep up with the discussion. Really! You're such a complete bore!

  • Hitch
    May 21, 2009 7:26 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:
    I would like to thank you for your answer to my question. I believe you are convincing, and I thank you for your effort in making a factual response. Quite frankly, I am appalled at Marilyn Grace a/k/a Anonymous, and her ham handed attempts at stifling debate on issues I, and others, find of interest.

    If Ms. Grace is successful with her film, in spite of her all too obvious inadequacies, I expect it will be because she is awarded the FDR Tabernacle Award.

    Thanks again for responding to my question.


  • Anonymous
    May 21, 2009 2:26 p.m.

    Butch Cassidy didn't die in South America - those who live in the small towns around where he grew up know that. His family confessed to those they knew well enough that Butch came back home, and I have a great-uncle who can point to the canyon in Southern Utah where he was quietly buried.

  • Anonymous
    May 21, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    Jerry, I am just a casual observer - but I notice you state "It takes 266 days from conception to birth" and then follow up with an argument that it could not be because of a one week gap between the contrived date of conception and the date Harry was suppose to be in Slater.

    Ever study any real Biology? - reproductive cycles are averages and not pinned down to exact number of days. A one week deviation is totally plausible. This is not viable evidence at all.

  • SLC gal
    May 21, 2009 2:07 p.m.

    Good night, You all are still going back and forth on this? D News needs to print a followup!

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 21, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    At the same time of the Denver office's investigations, an agent from Philidelphia was making inquiries in Pennsylvania in Longabaugh's home town, which included going through the Longabaugh families mail (a federal offense) concerning Harry Longabaugh's whereabouts. His handwritten report included background on Harry and his family, visits to family members and this statement: "Its believed was in Hospital last Summer 1901 in Buffalo NY . . . " This is the oft mentioned April 3, 1902 report.

    These three histories/reports have been used by Jerry and other Long/Longabaugh supporters to claim that Parker and Longabaugh were in the Western U.S. until 1902.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 21, 2009 1:37 p.m.

    As a result of Siringo's investigation the Denver Office issued criminal histories (circulars) on Parker and Longabaugh in 1902 detailing the information they had from Siringo and other informants. I am not sure of the number of the Parker history, but an accomaning one on Longabaugh was listed as "Denver Criminal History No. 1961" and was dated Mar 1 1902. The Parker history recounts what Siringo was told by Blake Graham while in while on a stage traveling to Silver City, New Mexico, and from others that Jim Lowe was still in the area. The Longabaugh history relates information recieved from a correspondant that Longabaugh was in Price and Vernal in July of 1901.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 21, 2009 1:36 p.m.

    The Denver Office sent Charlie Siringo, one of their undercover agents into Utah in the fall of 1900 tracking the Tipton/Wilcox robbers. He lost their trail during the winter of 1900/1901near Bluff, Utah. He was then sent to Alma, New Mexico early in 1901 since they thought the crooks may have been making their way there as money from the Wilcox robbery had been passed in the Alma area the year previous. Before being pulled from the hunt in New Mexico and sent north, Siringo apparently talked to people who claimed that Jim Lowe (an alias of Parkers) was still in the area.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 21, 2009 1:34 p.m.

    Hitch: You bring up a good question concerning Bill Long and the 1901 altercation with his wifes ex brother-in-law George Morrell. The short answer is that that it should settle the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. According to the conventional wisdom, ie. Buck, Meadows, Patterson, and others, Butch and Sundance (Longabaugh and Parker) were in South America at the time of the fight. However, Jerry and others, as we have seen on this board, have challenged this assertion, claiming that both Longabaugh and Parker were still in the Western U. S. at this time, with Harry Longabaugh, posing as Bill Long, being home with his wife and kids during October 1901 in time to confront George Morrell on October 21st. Jerry claims that Parker and Longabaugh and Etta Place did not leave for South America until 1902.

  • Buck Critic
    May 20, 2009 2:43 p.m.

    The Loa 1901 altercation absolutely settles it, for those that choose to ignore the Pinkerton files. Your Welcome

  • Hitch
    May 20, 2009 10:11 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    I think your argument about Harry Longabaugh in regard to the Gillespie letter is persuasive, and therefore, I think that Bill Long can not possibly be Longabaugh.

    Will you discuss Bill Long being in Loa in 1901 in an altercation with Morrell as being more proof that Long is not Longabaugh. I don't understand why Long's presence in Loa in 1901 doesn't settle the matter. Thanks.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 18, 2009 12:04 p.m.

    The People's Voice article corroborates the Gillespie letter and defines who the "friend" was. It says: "Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him" It then names E Lahey and J. Galloway as those who came to Pierre to identify him. Gillespie goes on to state that "when arrested he . . . didn't give has right name as he didn't want it to get to the papers. He and his lawyer both wrote telling how the matter stood and wanted me and one or two others to go there and prove that he was on Snake River at the time of the bank hold up. . . Two left here last night. . . "

    This could not be clearer.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 18, 2009 11:53 a.m.

    Jerry, Gillespie's letter does not name Harry Alonzo as his friend. But it does explicitly imply that his friend was working for Al Reader during the summer of 1897. His use of the language "who worked for Al Reader up till the middle of July" is a direct implication that his friend was working for Al Reader before that time, the general tone being that of several weeks or months before that time. The correlation is that If I said that I worked for the Air Force up until the middle of July, I mean that I was working for the Air Force before July for a duration longer than a few weeks.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 18, 2009 11:37 a.m.

    Jerry: you wrote: "Fort Duchesne is just up the road from Fremont"

    I really don't consider the Fort Duchesne/Roosevelt area just up the road from Fremont. It is close to 170 miles (give or take a few). It is about half way between the Little Snake River and Fremont. Fremont is a hard three day ride from Ft. Duchesne, or a six day round trip.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 18, 2009 11:17 a.m.

    Jerry: you wrote "This was the last season he ever worked in the Valley or as a bronc buster. Did he break his nose here (which caused the Catarrh) and return home to Fremont to recuperate. . ."

    If this is true, then Bill Long's standing picture showing his broken nose would have to have been taken between Aug 1897 and mid 1900. Is this when you say this picture was taken???

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 16, 2009 11:20 a.m.

    I made the issue public and Butch answered publicly. he did the right thing.

  • Anonymous
    May 16, 2009 6:25 a.m.

    "You did indeed invite me to join you. Your blog this date is a perfect example of why I declined your invitation."

    Butch. Don't you think it would have shown a little more class to "decline" Jerry's invitation in a more private manner! You have made it somewhat clear that you don't agree with his idea.

    Jerry. Ask someone else.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 15, 2009 6:08 p.m.

    According to Gillespie Alonzo was up at Al Readers on June 28, 1897.

  • Butch
    May 15, 2009 1:54 p.m.


    You did indeed invite me to join you. Your blog this date is a perfect example of why I declined your invitation.

  • Butch
    May 15, 2009 1:12 p.m.


    Fair enough. However, you have to distinguish between the documents under discussion. If, as I thought, we were discussing the October 12, 1897, Gillespie letter than what I wrote is valid as applied to the case -- provided Gillespie's unnamed subject is Harry Longabaugh.

    If you want to relate Helen Morgan's Three Volume set to the Gillespie letter, that's fine, we can do that, just let everyone know what you're talking about.

    None of the documents or books in print so far have Bill Long as Harry. As far as "reading" something into documents, what about you and Marilyn having Bill/Harry impregnate Luzernia on June 20, 1897, make it to the Reader Ranch by June 28, 1897, and then ....?

    But enough. It wouldn't be fair of me to state your argument. I leave that to you. Therefore, please allow me ask a question.

    In your opinion, based on your reading of the relevant documents, where was Bill Long on June 28, 1897?

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 15, 2009 10:59 a.m.

    This was the last season he ever worked in the Valley or as a bronc buster. Did he break his nose here (which caused the Catarrh) and return home to Fremont to recuperate and then return for a visit from June 27 through Aug 1? When you are sick and take sick leave are you still considered an employee of the same person?
    Please dont read things into these manuscripts that are not there and ignore evidence that weakens your argument. Dan Buck did this with the Mrs. Taylor Pinkerton memo and it disappoints me to see you do the same thing
    The Hollywoods and I are having a lot fun, and pains me to think you are not with us. Remember I invited you to join us.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 15, 2009 10:57 a.m.

    Page 13 of Gooldys manuscript does not say when he arrived in the Valley just when he left. He worked for other people besides Reader that winter and spring. That winter he and Burt Charter went to the mouth of the Big Hole tending the stockmans horses. That season he worked for William Crawford and may have worked for the Wrens as well so Gillespie was wrong when he said he had worked for Reader up until the middle of July. He may have left the Valley periodically. He and Burt Charter definitely left the valley and went to the mouth of the Big Hole. He and Charter may have gone to Fort Duchesne where Charters uncle was Quarter Master. Fort Duchesne is just up the road from Fremont. When did he leave one employer and sign with another one? Did he go to Fremont between employers? No one can answer these questions.

  • Butch
    May 15, 2009 9:52 a.m.


    On May 15, 1901, Pinkertons issued Reward Circular Number 1 for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The Cicular says:" On June 28, 1897, under the name of Frank Jones, Longbaugh (sic) participated with Harvey Logan, alias Curry, and Tom O'Day and Walter Putney (sic) in the Belle Fourche (S. Dak.) bank robbery. All were arrested, but Longbaugh (sic) and Harvey Logan escaped from jail at Deadwood, October 31, 1897."

    On February 3, 1902, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 2 was issued and used the exact same language as quoted above regarding the Belle Fourche robbery.

    On November 14, 1904, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 3 was issued and contained the exact language relative to Belle Fourche as Circulars 1 & 2.

    Between 1901 and 1904 Pinkerton Detectives were all over the Little Snake and were well aware of the Gillespie letter contention that Harry Longabaugh was at the Reader ranch at the time of the robbery. If we believe the "experts" David Gillespie was the source of the DeYong photograph.

    Isn't this awfully good evidence that Harry Longabaugh/Longbaugh/Jones/Roberts/et al was different people at different times and different places? Was Bill Long one of them?

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 6:26 p.m.


    Punch up the "two" who went to help Frank Jones/Harry Longabaugh figure argument. Why did they rescue Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore, and not help Tom O'Day and Walt Punteney? There is a very good reason and you should give it.

    Finally, I believe you ought to address the Rawlins/Peoples Voice article head on.

    No, don't look at your "Creative Executive Producer". Who ever heard of a "Creative Executive Producer" involved in a cold history case? Jerry, you don't create history --you uncover it and discover it by investigating it. "Creative Executive Producer"? What were you thinking of?

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 6:01 p.m.


    You were sailing along fine up to the 266 days for conception thing. Remember, Harry is a bronc stomper so he's real busy with the ramuda after spring round-up. No, Harry was with Reader from January through August 1, 1897. Which ever Harry it was didn't leave for a week or two of slap and tickle with Luzernia. That job belonged to Bill Long, an entirely different person than the Reader employed Harry.

    So, send the Hollywoods on your payroll off to finish the comedy film. You need to get busy on your book. The book requires notes. Go to Page 13, third full paragraph, second sentence of the John F. Gooldy "Early Day History" document. Got it? That's your argument. That is the note for your argument. Now add Governor Wells letter and the Jones Brothers language. Bill can't be in two places at once. Neither can Harry.

    I read Marilyn's blog of Feb 19. If you "solved" the mystery it must have been the same way Oliver Stone "solved" the JFK assassination. You'll never get away with that kind of thing in print.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 14, 2009 4:11 p.m.

    We have just read some very compelling evidence that Alonzo was not one of the men in the Deadwood Jail. And what is the explanation for Billy Smith not recognizing the prisoner if he was Alonzo? The two men that went to Deadwood could not identify the prisoner because there were not given the chance. Just because they were not given the opportunity does not mean the prisoner was defiantly Alonzo
    Here is another possibly; It takes 266 days from conception to birth. This means Luzernia became pregnant June 20, 1897 one week before Harry Alonzo was in Slater. Gillespie did not say exactly where he was on the 20. He could have been in Fremont and be considered an employee of Reader that just took some time off.

  • Not Butch
    May 14, 2009 2:28 p.m.

    Butch- Thanks for the information and while not "beyond a reasonable doubt" it still makes a lot of sense. We rarely get "BARD" do we? Concerning the Horn letter to Harris. There are a lot of old timers in Johnson Co. who disbelieve this. They will tell you that Speck and Horn were freindly. Horn certainly gets the location of Currie incorrect after Wilcox. I seriously doubt that Harvey Rae (Ray) was involved in the Wilcox robbery and he certainly was not one of the three that came north. There is also good evidence that the three did not go to Billy Hill's place on Red Fork to get remounted but in fact were remounted at John Nolen's in Kaycee, Wyoming.

  • Dora du Fran
    May 14, 2009 2:20 p.m.

    Kid Montana:

    I think we should all follow Mark Lane's admonition to not "Rush To Judgment".

    I also think we should lock Butch and Jerry in the back room of the Slick Rock and not let them out until they come up with the solution.

  • Anonymous
    May 14, 2009 2:11 p.m.

    1. hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting; a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit.
    2. cloudy or cloudlike.

    How did we get from Bill and Harry to Nancy Pelosi?

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 2:02 p.m.

    R. L.:

    I'm not sure if you intended to include me in the other 99.9 Foremost Authorities, but if you did, well, I'm afraid I'll have to decline. I really don't want the mantle of Foremost Authority draped on me. Foremost Authorities have gravitas and with the title and gravitas people expect Foremost Authorities to be right.

    If a Foremost Authority is wrong about something he is expected to defend his error to the death because Foremost Authorities are always right and never wrong. Defending the indefensible puts a lot of stress on a guy, and quite frankly, I don't believe I could handle the pressure of being a Foremost Authority.

    My goal is to perform as well as a stopped clock, which, of course, is right twice a day. When I have an unusually good day I'm right once that day. I never count the number of times I am wrong each day because I don't want to become depressed.

    On the other hand, if you have the position of Foremost Authority on Lutefisk, and Lefsa with Lingonberries, then, sir, we really need to discuss the matter further.

  • Anonymous
    May 14, 2009 1:31 p.m.


    1. hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting; a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit.
    2. cloudy or cloudlike.
    3. of or resembling a nebula or nebulae; nebular.


    1 : lasting one day only 2 : lasting a very short time

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 1:16 p.m.

    As soon as Murray got back to his Denver office he wrote to Hadsell and, in part, said: "There is a Harve Ray (sic), who would now be a man about 30. He went to school with George Curry (sic)and was raised at Sundance." Hadsell, of course, knew that Currie, a Canadian, landed first in Nebraska and didn't show up in Wyoming until sometime in 1887-1890, well past school age. Working from the Reward poster for Belle Fourche giving "Harve Ray"'s age as 42, I came up with Harvey G. Rae, born 1858 in Missouri. The 1870 Federal Census lists Harvey Ray at Flat Creek, Pettis County, Missouri. Pettis county neighbors Saline County.

    Finally, I would direct you to Tom Horn's letter of January 15, 1900 to E. C. Harris. Both the Murray and Horn letters are in the Frank Hadsell files on microfiche at the Wyoming Cultural Resources Center in Cheyenne.

    If you have a copy of Pointer just follow the index, paying particular attention to the Wilcox escape route.

    I can't think of anything else right at the moment. If I do, I'll let you know right away.

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 12:36 p.m.

    Not Butch:

    I suppose it depends on one's definition of "proof". I did some "boots on the ground" work on the Rae boys. Here's what I have:

    1.) Rueben H. "Nick" Rae was born in 1861, Missouri, Father: "J. H. Rae"; Mother "L. B. Rae". See the 1880 Federal Census for Miami, Saline County, Missouri. Nick, of course died April 9, 1892 at KC. I haven't found him for certain on the 1870 Census. Confusion might be in the spelling of the surname "Rae" as opposed to "Ray". I got the lead Rueben H. Rae, birthplace Missouri, from an old-timer at Gillette. Both leads --name and birthplace -- coincide with the Wyoming Tales and Trails website, see "Johnson County War/Invasion".

    2.) Harvey G. Rae, born 1858, Missouri, Father: Matthias Rae; Mother: Sarah Rae. I worked backward from Pinkerton Assistant Superintendant Frank Murray's letter to U. S. Marshall Frank Hadsell, dated June 7, 1900. There is a fair amount of discussion regarding the Horn letter to Fraser of January 15, 1900. Because of the Horn letter, Murray and Hadsell met at Cheyenne on June, 6, 1900.


  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 11:54 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    I have no disagreement with anything you said. If you are satisfied that all of the evidence fairly examined leads to the conclusion beyond a reasonable
    doubt that there is one and only one person who is Harry Longabaugh/Harry Alonzo/Frank Jones/ Frank Scramble then by all means Bill Long can not possibly be Harry Longabaugh et al.

    That being the case, what is your opinion of William D. "Billy" Smith's behavior of allowing Harry Longabaugh to be indicted for the Belle Fourche Bank robbery under the false name of Frank Jones? I'll keep in mind that Billy Smith played a role in Joe LeFors' frame up of Tom Horn.

    Second, I'd like to have your thoughts on why Thomas and Frank Jones, along with William C. Smith were provided escape horses to allow them to make it to Dandy Crossing, while Walt Punteney and Tom O'Day were not provided horses and were caught, on foot, at Bridal Veil Falls.

    Finally, is it your reccomendation that we not make further inquiry into the Keeline or 1887 on the grounds that it would be a waste of time?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 14, 2009 10:42 a.m.

    As has already been mentioned before, miss-identification of the Wild Bunch was commonplace. The Ben Kilpatrick affair in St. Louis in Nov 1901 after the Wagner train robbery is a good example. Butch Cassidy was declared dead after the gun-battle in the aftermath of the Castle Gate Robbery, A. G. Francis, mistook Harry Longabaugh (Sundance Kid) for Harvey Logan (Kid Curry) in 1908 at the time of the San Vicente shooting. These are just a few examples.

    As for the 1897 Harry Longabaugh, If Harry Alonzo and Harry Longabaugh were the same person, then Harry Longabaugh could not have been the same as William Henry Long in Fremont at the same time.

    Lastly, having read through the previous entries here, I still see no evidence, other than speculation that the Harry Longabaugh of 1887 was any different than the Harry Longabaugh of 1897. This whole SA thing in 1887 is still all very nebulous and ephemeral.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 14, 2009 10:25 a.m.

    Some Observations:

    Butch Mentions that Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person in his Oct 12, 1897 letter, that is correct. However the Rawlins Journal/People's Voice article of Oct. 10, 1897 does specifically mention "Harry Alonzo" as one who was arrested as one of the Belle Fourche robbers. It also mentions that Harry Alonzo was working for Al Reader at the time of the robbery, and that he had written and requested for some friends to come and identify him. It mentions that J. Galloway and E. Lahey were the ones who went to identify him, but that the authorities did not let them make the identification as the rewards had already been paid. This is pretty clear evidence that it was "Harry Alonzo" that was arrested under the name of Frank Jones. This also confirms the Gillespie letter. As cited before, many in the Little Snake River area later said that the person they knew as Harry Alonzo was the same person as Harry Longabaugh.

  • Not Butch
    May 14, 2009 9:57 a.m.

    Butch- I had long suspected that Harve Rae was related to Nick Rae. Is there any proof of the fact they were cousins. Very little is known about either as far as I know. Nick was supposedly working for Billy Irvine and was hurt. Irvine ran him off, which was unusual back then.

  • R L
    May 13, 2009 7:26 p.m.

    Are we seeing the birth of a new, genuine foremost authority(ies)? Very interesting, informative, without putting others down. Bravo to all 99.9% of you.

    R L

  • Butch
    May 13, 2009 4:21 p.m.

    Not Butch:

    I forgot to mention that Harve Rae was the cousin of Nick Rae who died at the side of Nate Champion during the Johnson County Invasion. There is an unconfirmed report floating around that both Nick and Harve are enumerated on an early census in the Ten Sleep area. Yep. I think "train wreck" is an accurate description.

  • Butch
    May 13, 2009 4:11 p.m.

    Frank Murray, reponding to a letter from Marshall Hadsell, said that Harve Rae and George "Flatnose" Currie had attended school together at Sundance. Hadsell wrote to the Pinkertons about Rae because Rae became a prime suspect in the Wilcox robbery after Tom Horn "questioned" witnesses. Pointer claims Rae was wounded in the Wilcox Robbers shootout that resulted in the death of Sheriff Josiah Hazen. On the run, the escaping robbers sheltered at the Muddy Creek Road Ranch where Rae died of his wounds and was buried above the cave at the Roadranch. So said Pointer.

    Never-the-less, Not Butch, you are quite right that I might have started another train wreck. I didn't specify which presumed Logan photo I was speaking about and I didn't elaborate about what Kirby said about Harve Logan "listed" as Harve Rae. I'm guilty as charged. I'll do my best to mend my ways.

    Thanks for your comment.

  • Butch
    May 13, 2009 3:57 p.m.

    Not Butch:

    We're talking about two different photos. Larry Pointer, so far as I know, was first to dub the Deadwood, South Dakota, photo of a Logan taken at the Locke Photography Studio the "Hobo Photo". When Bob Lee was interviewed in prison he said that the Locke Photo was a photo of Harve Logan. I don't believe the UP RR photo is generally known as the Logan "Hobo" Photo. The UP RR photo is not a photo of a single person. The Locke photo is of a single person.

    As noted, correctly, Kirby on page 35 claims that Harvey Logan was "listed" as Harve Rae. For that reason, Harvey Logan was indicted in absentia. If the Locke Photo is of Harvey Logan as Lee claims, then Harvey Logan was indicted as Thomas Jones and present in court when he heard himself indicted under his correct name in absentia.

    Harve Rae was a named suspect in the Belle Fourche Robbery because the four robbers did not wear masks, and Harve, a local to Belle Fourche and Sundance, was identified.


  • Not Butch
    May 13, 2009 2:31 p.m.

    Butch- Your comment yesterday evening concerning the possibility of the photo of Harve Logan (UP RR photo taken after arrest in Montana) being Loney Logan and possibly the larger Jones being Harvey Logan is a little absurb. Whether or not you were serious I don't know but the description of the larger Jones brother was not indicative of either Harve or Loney Logan. The reason that Harve Ray comes into play is because he was arrested in Dakota in 1895 and placed in jail in Natrona Co., Wyoming for stealing 50 head of neat cattle from J.L. McCoy along with Lew Henderson. Ray jumped bail and was never heard from again but was a suspect in the Belle Fourche robbery because of this. Ray was not Harve Logan as his description does not match that of Harve! You, Sir, might have started a train wreck by you statement!

  • Kid Montana
    May 13, 2009 2:11 p.m.

    Dora du Fran:

    I think Governor Wells calling the Jones boys "brothers" is good evidence that they are Harvey and Lonny Logan, who were in fact brothers, and not Harvey Logan and Harry Longabaugh, who were not related. That would mean that the guys locked up in jail didn't include Longabaugh. It also means that the Gillespie letter has no impact on Bill Long being one of the Longabaughs. He could have been in Fremont when the bank got robbed, and still be one of the Longabaughs.

    What do you think?

  • Dora du Fran
    May 13, 2009 9:33 a.m.

    Is it possible that there is the 1887 Harry Longabaugh who went to SA, an 1897 person who appropriated the alias "Harry Longabaugh", and a third person who was confused with Harry Longabaugh?

    If there are three different William C. Moores, why can't there be three different Harry Longabaughs?

    Ben "Tall Texan" Kilpatrick was arrested under the name of "Harry Longabaugh". According to Ms Ernst's new book, Kilpatrick had the name "Harry Longabaugh" written inside one of his possessions at the time of his arrest. Was Kilpatrick the Harry Longabaugh of the 1901 Pinkerton report placing him in Price, Utah, while another Harry Longabaugh is in SA?

    Perhaps both you and Butch are correct. Butch said that Bill Long is not the 1887 Harry. You maintain that Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh. If there are multiple Harry Longabaughs, could you both be right?

    Butch called me on a mistake. He was quite right. I was first to announce Butch has a book in the works. I shouldn't have done that.

  • Dora du Fran
    May 13, 2009 9:19 a.m.

    Governor Wells, in his letter, went on to link "Jack Moore" with the "Buhr Ranch". Separate from the letter Governor Wells also authorized a reward for Jack Moore: "$500 for Jack Moore: Height 5' 11"; spare made: 35 or 36 years of age; has one shoulder broken: dark sallow complexion; looks like a Spaniard...."

    Go back to 1887 and the letter from the outlaw in Argentina to Tom Nichols. The surname of the outlaw was Moore.

    The third incidence of "Moore" was William C. Moore, the identical name of Dakota escapee Moore who rode into the Texas Panhandle in 1878 on, according to Charlie Siringo, "a worn out pony." That William C. Moore, a/k/a "Outlaw Bill Moore" claimed to have been a former range boss for the Swan ranch and who killed "the Negro(sic) coachman" at Swan.

    The Swan operated on the same range at the same time as Tom Nichols was foreman at the Keeline.

    My advice to you is to continue to look very carefully at "William C. Moore/Jack Moore" and Thomas and Frank Jones. Is 1887 Harry Longabaugh the 1897 Harry Longabaugh?

    Continued ....

  • Dora du Fran
    May 13, 2009 8:52 a.m.

    Jerry Nickle:

    You will want to read, carefully, the letter Governor Wells wrote to your illustrious ancestor, "C. W. Allred Esq., Sheriff, Price, Utah" dated April, 18th, 1898. The letter will be found in the Governor's papers in the Salt Lake City archieve in the Old Depot building. In the letter Governor Wells is asking Sheriff Allred to form a posse with Joe Bush, then at Loa, to attack the Wild Bunch. Governor Wells pinpointed the point of attack by saying the gang he wanted apprehended had just crossed at Dandy Crossing. He goes on to say:

    "...the outlaws, among whom it is said there are Joe Walker, Jack Moore, a negro (sic)supposed to be Moore from Dakota, and perhaps the Jones brothers, also from Dakota...."

    If you carefully look at the newspaper reports of the October 31, 1897, Deadwood jail break, you will see that William C. Moore was a "light skinned Negro" (sic) being held on a murder charge. Moore had been previously employed by the Swan ranch. The three men who escaped from Deadwood were Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore.


  • Jerry Nickle
    May 13, 2009 7:58 a.m.

    Dura du Fran writes:
    The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?

    That is very significant. Can you give more details?

  • Dora du Fran
    May 12, 2009 7:39 p.m.

    Boys, Boys, Boys! Rather than sowing more seeds of confusion, why not sow a few more wild oats?

    As you all very well know I am the first person in history to franchaise Sporting Houses. I had three in 1897, one of which was used to case the bank in Belle Fourche and one of which staged the October 31, 1897, jail break, in Deadwood.

    On the jail break, horses were held behind the jail. Five jail inmates escaped: Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, Tom O'Day, Walt Punteney, and ....

    O'Day and Punteney weren't given horses to use for an escape and they were captured, on foot in Spearfish Canyon near Bridal Veil Falls.

    The Jones Boys and ..... made a clean escape on the horses provided by "the two" David Gillespie wrote to his mother about.

    The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?

  • Butch
    May 12, 2009 6:08 p.m.

    R. L:

    Not Butch gave you an excellent answer, Robert E. Lee. Lee's imprisonment is relative to any discussion of the Gillespie letter only because he names "Frank Scramble" as being in jail with Harvey Logan in October 1897 in Deadwood, accused of the Belle Fourche robbery. As NB said, Lee wasn't one of the robbers and when Fraser and Hadsell interviewed him both commented that he would have said anything to get released.

    Was "Frank Scramble" Harry Longabaugh? Was the 1897 "Hobo Photograph" Harvey Logan as Lee maintained? Or, were Thomas and Frank Jones, really Harvey and Lonny Logan, with the "Hobo Photo" being Lonny, not Harvey? Edward Kirby, who published The Rise and Fall of the Sundance Kid in 1983, seems to have started the confusion on page 35. There, Kirby writes that Harvey Logan was listed as Harve Ray! Kirby goes on to name Harry Longabaugh as Frank Jones. Take it from there. This is how train wrecks happen.

  • Butch
    May 12, 2009 5:38 p.m.

    Jerry Nickle:

    I've told you repeatedly I'm completely disinterested in the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. Nothing profitable will come of such discussions simply because, as a matter of logic, it is not possible for Bill to be Harry.

    What I do find interesting, however, is how the evidence is handled, how different people looking at the same evidence can reach different conclusions as to what the evidence says, and how different people in different disciplines argue.

    The William Long who married Luzernia is a different person than the Harry Longabaugh arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1887.Is the person arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1897 the same person as he arrested in 1887? The answer to that question is every bit as important as the question of why Mr. Buck failed to mention the 1887 Nichols/Newberry joint venture in Patagonia.

    Ernst is no different. She places Harry square in the thick of things at Keeline, April 20/21, 1886. Shouldn't Ernst have discussed the Nichols/Hall combination? Why didn't she mention that W. D. "Billy" Smith was the arresting officer in both 1887 1n3 1897?

  • Butch
    May 12, 2009 5:17 p.m.

    Before I made up my mind on the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter I wanted to hear you out on that one issue, among many others.

    Ghosttown Bob wanted to know if I was going to make an announcement relative to whom I thought Bill Long was. I'm not ready to do that because all of the evidence isn't in. I'm still tracking my candidate. The Bill Long who married Luzernia had a history prior to that time. William Long is a common name. I'm working exactly as I always work, from the base documents. That includes the Federal Census of 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930, and others.

  • Rod
    May 12, 2009 11:52 a.m.

    Hey Bybee....I also have relatives in Grafton cemetery....half of the cemetery...What grave are you related to?

  • R L
    May 12, 2009 10:10 a.m.

    Thank you Not Butch. That is about what I had been told.

    R L

  • Not Butch
    May 12, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    R Leroy- Robert E. Lee, cousin of the Logan brothers, spent 6 years 9 months of a ten year sentence for mail robbery. Convicted in May of 1900 and released on February 13, 1907. Although he had part of the money he probably was not there at the robbery.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 12, 2009 8:01 a.m.

    You say before you tell us whom Bill long really was you are going to hear me out. You and every one else have heard me out. I have a web site telling the story. The Deseret News published two different articles. My position is Bill Long was the Sundance Kid. Dan Bucks position is B&S were killed in Bolivia and he published his belief. We all know Bucks and mine so the time has come for you to do as you say you will and tell us yours,

  • R Leroy
    May 12, 2009 6:37 a.m.

    Butch, who did jail time for the Wilcox train robbery?

    R L

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 12, 2009 12:16 a.m.

    Dora du Fran did not reveal anything that was not know already known, so what are you talking about? She appears to be a well-informed person and she is a mystery to me. GTB and I have posted what we know, so if there is a secret, why wont you post it? If you will not post it then at least tell us the reason.

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 5:15 p.m.

    (Continued) 3.) On October 13, 1897 the 8th Judicial Court in Butte County indicted O'Day, Punteney, Thomas Jones, and Frank Jones, all of whom were in custody. Indicted in absentia were George Currie and Harvey Logan. If W. D. Smith knowingly allowed the court to indict Longabaugh under a false name, he violated his obligation to the court.

    4.) When Fraser and Hadsell interviewed Bob Lee in prison, Lee identified the man in custody, Tom Jones, as Harvey Logan, who had been indicted in absentia. He didn't directly name Longabaugh as anyone. He named "Frank Scramble" as Logan's indicted side kick.

    If you have ever seen a competent defense lawyer at work then you will believe me when I tell you if you gave one this set of facts with Harry Longabaugh in the docket, the court would dismiss the charges with the court's apologies to Mr Longabaugh or Long as the case may be.

    Before I make up my mind, I want to hear Jerry Nickle out.

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 4:56 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    I genuinely appreciate you answering my question regarding the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter. Oddly, I answered my own question exactly opposite of the way you answered it. I do not believe that Ms Ernst's published belief that the letter exonerates Harry from the Belle Fourche to be dispositive. Indeed, all Ms Ernst published statements prove is that As of 2009 Ms Ernst has arrived where every informed person has been at since October 12, 1897.

    Ms Ernst's progress is truly remarkable. In 1992, when she authored Sundance, My Uncle, she was ignorant of the Gillespie letter. A mere 17 years later she has corrected the error of SMU.

    Notwithstanding the foregoing, every unresolved issue that existed before the moment of Ms Ernst's enlightenment remains with us still. Consider:

    1.) Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person.

    2.) Montana Stock Growers Association Stock Detective, William D. "Billy" Smith, arrested Harry Longabaugh in 1887, and a man calling himself Frank Jones in 1897. When the same arresting officer arrests a man calling himself Longabaugh and then arrests a man calling himself Jones, if the two are the same person, shouldn't the officer say so?

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    3.) It is common knowledge that we all "shrink" a bit as we age. The "shrink with age factor" can be exacerbated by the type of life we individually lead.

    4.) Both Bill Long and Harry Longabaugh were acknowledged Bronc Stompers and made their living breaking horses. Constant pounding of the spinal column will exacerbate the spinal disk compression process, resulting in a greater shrink with age factor.

    5.) Because we are only talking about a 1" variation in recorded height between a 20 year old and a 69 year old, both known horse breakers, it is perfectly reasonable that 5' 9" 20-year old Harry could be 69-year old Bill.

    Kid Nickle and I argue based on fact and evidence. It keeps us young. That is why, at my age I look like a middle age Cary Grant. As you very well know, Kid Nickle bears a striking resemblance to a middle age Gary Cooper. People who make personal attacks on others seem to have a different result as they age.

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 2:09 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    No harm, no foul. I expect about 99.9% of the players on this blog all know who each other are. The wonderful thing about this blog is that there is an incredible amount of solid, published evidence on it that has not yet found its way into either one of Ms Ernst's books, or anything Ms Meadows or Mr. Buck have published. This is a win/win blog for all of us.

    If you're anticipating an announcement from me as to who I think Bill Long is, I'm afraid I'm going to disapoint you. The reason is quite simple. Kid Nickle and I are still arguing that one. I'm not about to do that while the jury is still out. Allow me to use an example. Consider the issue of hight.

    1.) Dr McCullough found Bill Long, at death, in 1936 to be 5' 8" tall.

    2.) The only definative height measurement of Harry Longabaugh was at his age 20 in 1887 when he was incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming.

    Continued ...........

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 11, 2009 9:44 a.m.

    (Continued): The Buffalo "Peoples Voice" 30 Oct 1897 issue, and the "Rawlins Journal" from which the "Peoples Voice" story was taken which both name Harry Alonzo as the person arrested for the Belle Fourche Robbery but who was sending to the Slater/Baggs area for witnesses to vouch that he was in Slater at the time of the robbery.

    Now unless someone can prove that Harry Alonzo was not Harry Longabaugh, this is proof that Harry Longabaugh and William Henry Long are not one and the same.

    Now I suspect that all this is leading to your announcement of who you think Long is.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 11, 2009 9:34 a.m.

    Butch/Lutefisk: You asked the question concerning David Gillespie's 12 October 1897 letter: "Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh?

    To answer your question, yes it does. For Evinda to have been William Henry Long's daughter, he would have had to have been in Fremont around June 29th. Gillespie's letter clearly states his friend, whom he does not name, was working for Al Reader up until the middle of July. abd that he was in Slater on June 27th and the Reader Ranch on the 28th. He also implies that he was in the neighborhood until Aug. 1st.

    Now Gillespie in the letter did not name who his friend was. The other records you have previously names all identify him as either Harry Alonzo, Harry Longabaugh, or both. To add to you impressive list you may also want to include:

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 11, 2009 8:54 a.m.

    I hope everyone had a wonderful Mother's Day weekend.
    Butch/Lutefisk: Sorry I started the ball rolling on this identity thing, which resulted in getting your cover blown. I was just funnin around. Ms Robison has been trying to guess who I am for months.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 10, 2009 4:51 p.m.

    Butch Iversons Book will trump everything else that has been published. He will have the most compressive research published to date. I can hardly wait to read it.
    We disagree on a few things, we fight and I swear I will not to speak to him again and then we kiss and make up. I am drawn like a moth to fire.
    After this is finished we are going to cerebrate by shooting up the Red Dog Saloon in old Giles town. Cherokee Kate and Belle Nickle will be there, and I hope a few other people will be there too.

  • Anonymous
    May 10, 2009 12:16 p.m.

    It's Gooldy not Gouldy. The Gillespie responce "No Dave, that isn't true." was made well before the Winnemucca robbery.

  • Cherokee Kate
    May 9, 2009 11:40 p.m.


    The five rivers and the Bear's Tooth are true. The five rivers wedded to the Bear's Tooth are the Shakopee of the Dakota.

  • Butch and Cherokee
    May 9, 2009 11:19 p.m.

    Kid Norski is Butch Iverson
    Cherokee Kate is Butch's wife
    Kid Nickle is Jerry Nickle
    Belle Nickle is Jerry's wife

    The Nickle family and the Iversons are close friends. Dora du Fran is an outbounder who gave away a secret that she ought not to have revealed. Never-the-less, Jerry and Butch, with separate books comming out, actually do fight, argue, and then kiss and make up. Both the Cherokee and Belle are long suffering wives who watch their men, roll their eyes to the heavens, and then offer prayers
    on behalf of their men.

  • Shoshoni
    May 9, 2009 10:54 p.m.

    I was present at the Medicine Wheel when the Cheorkee told the story of the five rivers. The Cherokee pointed at the Bear's Tooth and the rivers of life flowing from the medicine wheel. If the Cheorkee is Kate, make your sign known.

  • Dora du Fran
    May 9, 2009 10:39 p.m.

    As to the matter of whether or not you, Sir, Mr. Butch, are forgiven, that matter will remain in doubt for the time being.

    Ms Ernst, on page 123, deliberately confuses and intertwines 2 documents, the WPA Gouldy Interview, and the subsequent monograph of David Gillespie the son of David Gillespie.

    To begin, Ernst says that Harry was asked by Gillespie if the stories of Harry being a member of the Wild Bunch was true. There are two different responses. The Gillespie response was: "No Dave, that isn't true." The Gouldy response was that Harry admitted robbing the Winnemucca Bank.

    In the Gillespie version, Harry "slept in the barn to save money". In the Gouldy version Harry slept in the barn to avoid recognition. Really? Longabaugh was a steady fixture from at least 1896 through 1897 in Little Snake Valley. He would be recognized by everyone!

    There are multiple and significant differences between Gillespie and Gouldy. If you wish to know where they are, what they are, and read a full description of the event see Jerry's book and see Butch and Cherokee,s book.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 9:36 p.m.

    Madame Du Fran,

    Thank you for drawing attention to our collective bad behavior. Please allow me the honor of apologizing first for our transgressions.

    Ms. Ernst is quite notorious for innapropriate citations, poor form in citations, innacurate citations, outrageously poor scholarship, abysmal technique, and an ever-present proclivity to mis-characterize citations, a la Mr Buck.

    In my very humble opinion, page 123 is the epitome of outrageous scholarship. Would you, Ma'm, favor our discussion group with your analysis? I'm quite sure we would all be in your debt.


  • Dora du Fran
    May 9, 2009 8:57 p.m.

    I thought I asked an intelligent series of questions. I put work and thought into my comment. No one has responded to me. So far this blog has concerned itself with comments between insiders bent on crucifying each other. May we please return to constructive, informative, debate of the issues?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 8:40 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    We are very rapidly drawing this matter to a close. I believe you are quite right in that Jerry is sincere in his quest. The supporting players, however, are far from being what they pretend to be.

    We are all watching a train-wreck in the making, and that is a tragedy for Jerry, his family, and his friends, both you and I among the latter. Once the HollywoodS arrived, "Truth was the first casualty." Some of us, Jerry's pals, took the precaution on his behalf to protect him. To that end, being mindful of the axiom regarding lawsuits for either defamation or libel, that "Truth is the ultimate defense", we have carefully prepared for the eventuality that our future legal opposition is, shall we say, "litigious".

    The issue of litigation was never in doubt. Jerry's sincerity, dedication, resolve, integrity, and personal committment to principles was never in doubt. Only the offal that spiraled down the drain within the orbit of Jerry's star are not identified. That will be corrected when Ms Robison and Anonymous surface for battle.

    Of course, my ultimate target is Mr. Buck, with the secondary target being Ms. Ernst.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 7:51 p.m.

    Ghotsttown Bob:
    While the ladies debate the wisdom of going one on one with me, I would very much appreciate your opinion on the issue of the Gillespie letter relative to the new book by Ms Ernst. Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh? Oh, querry, querry, Sir.

    I remain your humble servant.

    Also Known As Kid Lutefisk

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 6:09 p.m.

    In the interests of full disclosure, I admit I am not Ghosttown Bob. Readers of this blog might well wonder why only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Anonymous, focus on the issue of who is whom. The rest of us debate issues, or try to, with fact, footnote, and argument under normal rules of constructive debate.

    The only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous who snipe at identities sans fact, regard for truth, and total disregard for fact are Ms. Robison and Ms. Anonymous.

    Got the guts to go one on one with Kid Lutefisk, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous? Are either one of you really stupid enough to take me on? Do you really want your foibles revealed in public? How anxious are either of you to have your worst secrets made public?

    Ladies, I'm your absolute worst nightmare. In the words of Henry Higgins, "The Angles will weep for you." I look forward with unbridled anticipation to your response.

    Kid Lutefisk

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 5:32 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob and I are two entirely different people. As previously stated I am a dead ringer for Cary Grant in his prime. On the other hand,GTB is a dead ringer for Harrison Ford.How could you possibly confuse the two of us?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 4:25 p.m.

    Jerry is investigating. Jerry is spending his own money, time and effort, depriving his family, using the resaources of his family, friends, climbing into the saddle and riding into the blistering heat of the San Rafael, thirsty, hot , tired, over-age, and in poor health. He does that for you, Gordon.

    I believe that Jerry Nickle, my fellow saddle tramp, has more honesty, brains, dedication, integrity, love for his American colleagues, and courage than any other man I know. I'm proud to call the man my friend. We disagree. We fight, argue, and insult each other like an old married couple. In the end, our disagreements advance the ball.Each and every one of the readers of this blog
    benefits. You already have knowledge no one else does, you've already been privy to the 1908, and 1909 material. If you stay on this blog, you're going to get more solid information on American History, the men and women who really settled the west, the Parkers, Longabaughs, and others, than you will ever get from any other source short of Jerry's book or mine. Oops! Does Deseret News have a scoop?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 3:58 p.m.

    Jerry Nichol is not "playing Politics" and he is not driven by greed. Jerry has been up-front with everyone. He got involved in this project to:

    (1)Rejoin Bill Long's remains in his grave with the highest regard for the sensibilities of his family.

    (2) Collect DNA samples for the purpose of attempting to discover possible relatives, only one of which group might be the Longabaugh line.

    (3) Materially advance the understanding of the American people regarding their history by providing each of us with a highly detailed analysis of historic documents, and providing each of us with the actual documents, word for word.

    Jerry Nickle has a lot to do. The man never once asked for money or time from any one of us. There are no tax dollars involved in his work. Jerry, his family, and his friends, have provided the money, time, and sacrifice for the benefit of the Longs, Longabaughs, and the American people. The most stiking feature is that while Ms Ernst has twice remarked on the similar characteristics between the man who claimed to be the Sundance Kid's son, she has done abolutely nothing to investigate the matter. (Continued)

  • A friend of JN
    May 9, 2009 3:32 p.m.

    Jerry Nickle tells me, he did not ask you to furnish a DNA sample? If Jerry Nickle did not then who did?

    Jerry Nickle told me he knows exactly who you are and you are not Kid Lutefish.

  • jimlyn
    May 9, 2009 1:23 p.m.

    Gordon, I am not an expert in dna, but you should be a one to one match with Conrad. If Mr Long is SK then he too should be a one to one match. Y chromosome is very mutant resistant. I have had several matches with my dna and all are a one to one match going back at least two hundred years. And the cat and mouse is politics and money. But I don't blame Mr Nicols for taking the time to do it right.

    May 9, 2009 10:13 a.m.

    I was told my DNA was to help prove or disprove that Bill Long was the Sundance Kid---since his great grandfather Conrad was my great-great-great grandfather there would be a 1/16th match----I stated my DNA was to be used in the public domain----I do not understand why everyone is playing cat and mouse?

  • Dora du Fran
    May 8, 2009 12:53 p.m.

    In 1900 Fred J. Dodge and his family lived in San Antonio, not Fort Worth. (Patterson, Butch Cassidy, Note 22, Page 311)The Fred J. Dodge letter of March 6, 1909 to McParland, previously discussed on this blog opens with the following sentence: "I would thank you to furnish me a history of Butch Cassidy also a photo if you have one." If Dodge had fifty prints of the photo in 1900, 49 after Ms Ernst claims he mailed one to the Pinkertons, why would he write to the Pinkertons 9 years later and ask for a photo of Butch? Why did Ms Ernst fabricate a citation? Why didn't Mr Buck bring the Dodge letter forth years ago?

  • Dora du Fran
    May 8, 2009 12:41 p.m.

    On page 123 of Donna Ernst's new book, The Sundance Kid, Ms Ernst claims that the Fort Worth Five photograph, taken November 21, 1900, was discovered in the window of theSwartz photography studio by Fred J. Dodge, a Wells, Fargo detective. Ms Ernst claims that Dodge made 50 prints of the photo and then, from his office at 817 Main Street in Fort Worth, mailed a copy to the Pinkertons, who in turn sent one to George Nixon in Winnemucca. As authority Ms Ernst, at end note 6 on page 215, cites "wanted" poster from the Malta train robbery, reprinted on page 119 of her book. On page 119 Ms Ernst reproduces Reward Circular No. 3 for the Winnemucca Bank Robbery, issued November 14, 1904, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Fort Worth Five Photo or the Malta train robbery except that Malta is listed as one of Longabaugh's alleged offenses. It gets much worse.

    The Wells Fargo Agent at 817 Main Street in 1900 was not Fred J. Dodge, but rather, Nicholas J. McGinnis. (Selcer, Hell's Half Acre, page 262)


  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 8, 2009 9:57 a.m.

    Kid Lutefisk: Actually I'm not offended, though I think that Gaylen thinks I am Harold Iverson, not you, and Gaylen, I am not saying whether I am, or I am not. I'll keep you guessing for a while longer. I do however look like Harrison Ford, but with a much larger stomach.

    As for Jerry, and bunch. I have never doubted their sincerity, or their documentation, or their passion for the subject. Jerry is a great individual and I am sure he is making every effort to document what he has.

    What I have doubted are their conclusions linking William Henry Long to Harry Longabaugh. For the most part, they have either mis-interpreted their sources, or relied too much on hearsay/rumor from past/present family members, while doubting the veracity of the valid research of others. Calling everything you do not agree with as "fake" is a poor way of proving your point.

    Yes, I doubt that Jerry will reveal the results of the DNA tests on this board, even though he has hinted that he would. Any smart person would wait for the book and documentary.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 8, 2009 9:35 a.m.

    Anonymous: Did you ever really read "Digging Up Butch and Sundance?" It is not written as an historical work. It was written by Anne Meadows as a travel book across South America, with a Butch and Sundance theme. It tells the story of where they went and what they found. Not as a book on history. If you have ever read any of Buck's history articles, they are very well annotated and referenced as they should be.

    . . . but I think you already knew this. You just wanted to show off your ignorance.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 8, 2009 6:22 a.m.


    Right on sister! Your question is fair, proper, valid, ethical, and, if Mr Buck gives you the courtesy of the reply you deserve we all will benefit.

  • Anonymous
    May 7, 2009 6:40 p.m.

    "Jerry Nickle is passionately devoted to professional standards regarding citation to specific documents. Dan Buck? No. If you own a copy of DUBAS, and you ought to, what you will notice is that Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact."

    why is this so, Mr. Buck, or Ms. Buck?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 4:17 p.m.

    (Continued) 9.) As you read this blog pay strict attention to standards and ethics. Hold everyone to the highest standards of both. If you do you will find that Deseret News is passionately devoted to the exercise of our collective First Amendment Rights. Jerry Nickle is passionately devoted to professional standards regarding citation to specific documents. Dan Buck? No. If you own a copy of DUBAS, and you ought to, what you will notice is that Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact.
    Kid Nickle, on the other hand, is the most fastidious fellow I know about citations. I expect his book will have enough citations to keep all of us busy through, at minimum, the next decade. With Jerry, you will know where to find the piece of evidence he cites as authority. You may agree or disagree with him, but there will be no question about where the man got the evidence he is arguing.
    Get a copy of Deseret News. Pick a story. Turn on a TV or read another newspaper. What you will find is that your story is supported.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 3:10 p.m.

    7.) The fact that DNA test results are not released in advance of publication of Jerry's book and the relase of his film, is in no way properly construed as evidence that there is a match or no match of the DNA. I expect that if you want to know the result, you'll have to buy the book, watch the movie, or read Deseret News. I intend to do all three.

    8.) If you read this blog you benefit from a lively discussion of facts with a hard-edge, pointed discussion of annotated evidence, and a no-nonsense look at comlicated evidence by quality professionals. What else do you want? Buy a book, watch a film, buy a newspaper. We call that education, jouralism, and information.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 2:59 p.m.


    4.) Jerry and his group acted with the highest moral and ethical standards in the second exhumation. We must all remember that exhumation #2 was conducted solely for the purpose of re-internment of Long's skull and femur, making the remains whole in the grave. That was a kindness to the family and Jerry footed the bill out of his own pocket. Imagine if your loved one was not complete in his/her final resting place. Wouldn't you want the remains whole in the grave? I would.

    5.) Dr McCullough acted responsibly and with the highest professional standards at exhumation #2. He had only a brief time at the grave to observe the remains. Because the primary purpose of the exhumation was to make the remains whole, not to conduct a complete forensic examination, Dr McCullough labeled his report "Preliminary" and quite plainly stated the circumstances.

    6.) The third exhumation resulted from the discovery that the DNA sample obtained at Exhumation #1 could not possibly be vetted due to the Chain of Custody mandate for any responsible procedure designed to compare DNA between two donors. The purpose of the exercise is to locate family members.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 2:37 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    (1) I hope you weren't offended by the Hollywoods thinking you and I were the same person. I'm a dead ringer for Cary Grant in his prime. You?

    (2) Thank you for your clarifications. You appear to know what you're talking about.

    (3) In defense of Jerry Nickle I would like to say that I personally know the man to be possessed of a character beyond reproach. Along that line, I believe it to be entirely unfair of all of us to demand that Jerry reveal the crux of his position -- DNA testing match/no match on this blog, for free. The man not only has a book forthcomming, and a movie, but he has spent a considerable amount of money developing both of these properties to my benefit, yours, and every other American citizen interested in our history. The same is true for our host, Deseret News. We would not be able to discuss this topic but for their investment of time and money in hosting this site. When they printed a correction on the 1901/1910 error we ought to compliment them, not denigrate them. Thank you Jerry, thank you Deseret News.

  • Wonder why
    May 7, 2009 2:13 p.m.

    Why today do we see those, to avoid being held responsible for what they say or do, or not being able to verify/prove their own theories, (includes politicians) turn to running the other down. It has become a habit for far too many. If one is right, what does the opinion of one who does not agree matter? If wrong, seems like it would be best to not ask at all.


  • Disintrested Observer
    May 7, 2009 12:32 p.m.

    On the other hand, Mr. Buck, when might the rest of us that don't read Spanish be able to read the above mentioned book? Might you not be able to persuade Mr. Gavirati to provide an English translation of at least parts of it?

  • Disintrested Observer
    May 7, 2009 12:22 p.m.

    ". . .besides Mr. Buck because he is the only one that can read Spanish."

    I think several million people in Latin & South America, as well as the Philippines and Spain may disagree with you.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 7, 2009 12:14 p.m.

    Kid Lutefisk: Concerning the exhumations of Bill Long. This topic has been discussed several times on this board and at the KSL site. Your assessment of the exhumations seems to be pretty accurate. The "Family" has been insistent that exhumation #2 (Nov 15, 2007) was just for the purpose of putting Long's bones back, that his body wasn't disturbed, and that no tests were done at that time. Of course they wouldn't admit that Dr. McCullough took measurements and made a forensic examination of the remains at the time, or that his bones were removed and placed in a vault upon re-burial.

    My sources have also told me that the "Families" position was that "not enough DNA" was found to make a valid comparison which is what led to a "no-match" to the Long descendant. They originally had wanted to do a Y-Chromosome comparison, but switched in early 2008 to hunting for maternal descendants for Mt-DNA testing.

    This last exhumation, I understand was again for Y-Chromosome testing. Perhaps Gorden can enlighten further about what he was told when he was recruited for testing.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 7, 2009 11:40 a.m.

    The Deseret News printed Edition for Feb 16, 2009 Column 1, page B8, fourth paragraph down says: "Oct 24, 1910." Look it up in the Library, it's there for all to see.

    The Deseret News Online editors made the correction for the online article to read "Oct 24, 1901" on Feb 18th with no mention of their revision.

    No dyslexia here.

  • To: Granny T (Me, Myself and I)
    May 7, 2009 11:12 a.m.

    It is well noted and documented that Butch and the Wild Bunch were more like Robin Hoods than Boyz In The Hood. They may have been outlaws but they also shared their spoils with many in need.

  • Me, Myself and I
    May 7, 2009 11:08 a.m.

    The article definitely says the altercation over the supposed water theft happened in 1901. Maybe Bob does have dyslexia.

  • To: Eyepatch (Me, Myself and I)
    May 7, 2009 10:44 a.m.

    Its called a human interest story. Besides journalism is dead! What they put out for us to read half of it is ficticious or propoganda to get us to believe what they want us to.

  • Driftwood
    May 7, 2009 10:03 a.m.

    Mr. Buck discredits or ignores certain parts of Siringo and the Pinkerton Files that weakens what he has written or believes. He contends every thing in the Gavirati book trumps Siringo and the Pinkerton files. The Gavirati book is only published in Spanish and cannot be substantiated by other American author besides Mr. Buck because he is the only one that can read Spanish. When a conflict in his book is pointed out to him his respoce is read Gaviratis book. As far as he is concerned this ends the argument and he won the argument. He does not have to address the conflict in his book. Very convenient for Mr. Buck.
    Mr. Buck wrote the forward for Gavirati.

  • Ancient Mariner
    May 6, 2009 12:43 p.m.

    I'm confused. If the DNA from the second time Long was dug up wasn't a match, which match are we waiting for? When did the negative match happen? Why did you dig Long up a third time?

    May 6, 2009 12:40 p.m.


  • Jakey2
    May 6, 2009 12:34 p.m.

    I'm probably going to regret joining in but I have a comment and a few questions for Dan Buck.

    I sure hope you and Kid L keeping going. I've learned more about the Outlaws in an hour than I learned in ten years reading books about them. Is there any chance the two of you would stage a cage match? I'll by a ticket.

    I checked page 78 in your wife book and like Kid L says they left Argentina on May 1. Are you saying the posse was chasing them to Chile?

    If there weren't many people in Argentina in 1887, wouldn't that be a good place for outlaws to hide? Who would know they were there.

    Are you saying Charlie Seringus and Patterson made everthing up?

    Just asking. Thanks for a good show.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    May 6, 2009 11:47 a.m.

    To add more confusion relating to the Trio's entry into Patagonia, His late Majesty, Edward VII, did not determine whether Cholila was in Chile or Argentina until November 1902.

  • Daniel Buck
    May 6, 2009 7:24 a.m.

    Kid L.,

    In the mid/late-1880s, western Chubut was barely populated. If the Siringo anecdote has any basis at all, it's in reference to the Pampas, the region to the immediate west and south of BsAs. But as I mentioned earlier, there is nothing in the Argentine literature about a 100-member Yankee bandit gang in the 1880s (or ever). There were large, marauding Chilean gangs in the Andean foothills of northern Patagonia, but that was years later.

    Many Americans came to Argentina in the late 1800s/early 1900s, including Texans. The country was an immigrant magnet. Not everyone, though, has to be linked to Cassidy. Conspiracies and complots based on six-degrees-of-separation are easy to construct, but not very credible.

    As for your other points, read Gavirati (2007). For example, the Argentine police went after BC&SK following the February 1905 Rio Gallegos holdup (which the duo probably did not commit). BC&SK&EP fled to Chile. Normally, thats called being chased out.


  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 6, 2009 6:41 a.m.

    In Butch's August 10, 1902 letter to Mrs. Davis he states that, while "It is 16 hundred miles to BA" it is only 150 miles to the Chilean Coast. DUBAS, page xii. To take advantage of the drastically shortened route it is necessary to develop the Cochabamba trail which would lead to the packing plant in the Chilean city of the same name. In Butch's 1907 letter to the Boys at Concordia, Butch once again focuses on the packing plant: "It is 350 miles from here to Cochabamba and a hell of a road." DUBAS, p. 99.

    The three Amigos left Cholila, never once molested by law enforcement, on May 1, 1905. DUBAS, p.78. At the time the Cochabamba trail had opened and the packing plant was in full operation, to the very great benefit of Newberry-Nichols cattle operations as well as the rest of Patagonia. Butch and Harry sold their squatter's rights to a Chilean outfit, and on June 29, 1905, Harry and Ethel hopped a freighter to, ostensibly, California. DUBAS, p.79.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 6, 2009 6:18 a.m.

    Mr. Buck. I'm not satisfied with your characterization of Butch and Harry, having read newspaper accounts of free land in Patagonia, landing haphazzardly in Cholila with the comely Ethel Place in tow. Together we have established quite clearly that the circumstance of the three amigos parallels, exactly, the Tom Nichols/Hall - Newberry Brothers operations with American outlaws for the preceeding 14 years. Why then, in view of the 1909 Dodge letter joining Butch to Hall/Nichols, should we suppose that Butch and Harry chose Cholila independently of the Nichols-Newberry programed development of cattle ranching enterprise? No, your characterization is not credible.

    It is also not credible that Butch and Harry were "chased out" of Patagonia. To the contary, Dimaio did not arrive in BA until March 16, 1903. After Dimaio left BA, it was with the understanding that Newberry would take up the chase following the 1903 Patagonian winter. That, of course, did not happen. Indeed, despite continued Pinkerton efforts to gin up Agentine support for an invasion of Cholila, no such capture effort was forth comming. Nor should it have been expected with vice-counsul George Newberry providing cover for the outlaws in the Argentine capital.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 6:46 p.m.

    Au Contraire, ,mon ami. You must read more carefully and quote more accurately. Siringo is quite specific that he got the story of Brogart/Gatlin/McCoy murdering the boy from Len Woodruff, not the information regarding the dentist, the tough gang of outlaws and the ranch operations 1200 miles from BA. As to Cowboy Detective you know full well you have conjoined two separate letters and one statement by Siringo into a single "letter".

    1) Letter from Hall to Dentist.
    2.) Siringo statement of location.
    3.)Moore letter to Hall/Nichols.

    Come, come, Mr. Buck, your're much better than this tawdry performance. Let us have your best game!

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 6:29 p.m.

    Chuckle. Well done, Mr. Buck, well done. However at the conclusion of your most excellent and entertaining comment you gave yourself the slightest chance of escape by dropping the name George Newberry. Of course, George Newberry is the dentist --and temporary diplomat at Buenos Aires. His brother Ralph Lamertine Newberry oversaw ranching operations at Nahuel Huapi and had substantial interests in gold and silver mining attempts in Bolivia. The Newberry neighbors at Nahuel Huapi were Jared Jones and John Crockett who arrived in 1887 exactly as Ms Meadows wrote on Page 56 of DUBAS, and of course the Dentist in Buenos Aires with the outlaws in Patagonia in 1887. Now as to your Neptune Ranch. Well now, on August 10, 1902 Butch wrote to Maud Davis' mother at Ashley, Utah. Butch was writing from the Cholila Ranch. Ms Meadows, printed the letter on pages xi-xii. On xii Butch writes "It is 16 hundred miles to Buenos Aries...." Tell me, Mr. Buck, was Butch wearing a wet suit when he wrote? Snorkel? Of course Nahuel Huapi is 200 miles nearer Buenos Aires than the Cholila Ranch, and we now begin to approximate Moore's 1200 miles!

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 5:46 p.m.

    (Continued) The reason I believe Dodge's 1909 letter to be the most critical of the three groups of letters is it closes the circle with Hall/Nichols exactly where we began in 1887. McParlan's comments are not context, they are criticism. You know perfectly well from reading the relevant personnel files that Robert and William, between 1902 and 1914, spent many hours corresponding about ways and means to pension off their old retainer at full salary without hurting his feelings. That is context for McParlan's comment. Context for Dodge's leter is that Maxwell, having arrived in Goldfield, Nevada as a strike breaker within the time frame of the Nelson-Gans fight promoted by Rickard is now back in Utah with Butch, Nichols, and McCarty. The 1910 Census will show Mid Nichols in the Nevada goldfields and Billy Sawtelle pouring Dan Parker a drink at the Iron Saloon at Parowan, Utah. Context, Mr. Buck. Context.

    Ms Meadows discussed Billy Sawtelle leaving Fremont County, where Bert Charter is ranching and freighting and Elzy Lay is ranching and bar tending, going to SA, and comming back with news of Butch's death. Why not discuss context?

  • Daniel Buck
    May 5, 2009 5:26 p.m.

    1,200 miles from BsAs, by the way, puts the gang operating either in the Pacific Ocean 400 miles off the coast of Chile: in the Antarctic Ocean 200 miles south of Tierra del Fuego; or somewhere in Brazil, north of Bolivia.

    There is no evidence in the Argentine literature of any such Texas badman dentist or any such gang, amphibious or not.

    Why did BC&SK go to Argentina? By all accounts to homestead a ranch, which is what they did until they got chased out. News of free land in Argentina was published in the US newspapers; other ranchers in the Rockies had gone down there. Coincidentally, a dentist did have a role in their homesteading in Patagonia : New Yorker George Newbery, who was the American vice-consul in BsAS , as well as a land developer and rancher.


  • Daniel Buck
    May 5, 2009 5:23 p.m.


    Siringo presented two slightly different versions of the 1887 incident, 25 years later in A Cowboy Detective (1912), p. 63, and 40 years later in Riata and Spurs (1927, 2nd. ed. rev.).

    1912 version: Hall gave Bogan/McCory/Gatlin a letter of introduction to a dentist in Buenos Aires as a passport into a gang of 100 outlaws operating 1,200 miles from Buenos Aires. Hall showed Siringo a letter from a Texas murderer, Moore, perhaps the gang's leader and the dentist.

    1927 version: Bogan sails to Buenos Aires where "he found a friend in the person of a dentist who was a badman from Texas, and a friend to Tom Hall." Hall had already sent the dentist a letter asking him "to assist Gatlin in reaching an outlaw band on the Pampas, twelve hundred miles from Buenos Aires."

    In version two, Siringo implies that he got the story secondhand from Len Woodruff.


  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 4:27 p.m.

    "When you and Ms Meadows considered and wrote about the reasons or reason Butch and Sundance lit out for South America, wouldn't this group of interlocking people, places,and outlaw characters predating their 1901 arrival by 14 years merit significant space in your book? I am greatly troubled by your failure to even discuss it."

    Come on KL, you can't mean that. Why our man Dan, will discuss anything. Especially what he has spoken.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 4:27 p.m.

    (continued)As far as Butch's letter from Santa Cruz is concerned I found several items highly significant. Near the end of his letter Butch says he and his companion are heading south and will be back at Concordia in approximately a month. Paraguay is, of course, south. The description of the land Hutcheon wanted is perfectly described and tallies exactly with the Rickard/Musgrave operations along the Rio Paraguay. The Tanners can't issolate arrival times in Paraquay for either Rickard or Musgrave. The Tanners give 1911 as Jano's arrival time but state that she might have arrived earlier or that Musgrave arrived earlier and told her about it. The Jebens family claimed 1910 or 1911 as the arrival time, but the 1910 Federal Census shows them absent from Little Snake River. At worst, all the significant players in Paraguay are moving toward Paraguay 24-30 months after the date of Butch's letter. If so, it is not credible that the target site wasn't selected before that -- and if you look at the 1908 and 1909
    reports within that context, I believe we can determine the approximate time frame the Rio Paraguay was selected.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 3:54 p.m.

    Mr. Buck:

    My apolgies to you as well, Sir. I've located the Word Counter, and I'll let you judge for yourself how appropriate my comment is.

    1.) Specifically. Siringo, Cowboy Detective, pp 51-65. I am using the Bison Books edition. Please refer to chapter III. The other major reference is Patterson, Historical Atlas of the Outlaw West, pp 211-212. Gatlin/McCoy, Moore, Hall/Nichols also appear in Riata & Spurs, Lonestar Cowboy, and a Texas Cowboy. I'm quite sure you're familiar with the Pinkerton files on the McCoy gang and Thomas Eskridge a/k/a Peg Leg Watson.

    I find the material descriptive of a Buenos Aires dentist at the head of a tough gang of outlaws numbering in the 100s in 1887, connected to Texan Tom Nichols/Hall simply astounding. When you and Ms Meadows considered and wrote about the reasons or reason Butch and Sundance lit out for South America, wouldn't this group of interlocking people, places,and outlaw characters predating their 1901 arrival by 14 years merit significant space in your book? I am greatly troubled by your failure to even discuss it.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 3:18 p.m.

    The DNA extracted from Long's remains did not match a presumed McCarty donor sample. At the time of the exhumation Long's skull and femur were removed and the rest of the remains re-interred.

    Exhumation # 2: If the document entitled "Preliminary Report, Examination of William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah, November 15, 2007" by John M. McCullough is valid, then the second exhumation took place on or about November 15, 2007, and Dr. McCullough was present. And if the referenced report is valid, Dr. McCullough found Long to be 5' 8" tall at death, just as I stated in my comment.

    Exhumation # 3: Appears to have taken place in December, 2008, judging from comments on this blog, including your own.

    Communication with persons involved directly or tangentially with all exhumations informed me that Long DNA from Exhumation #1 was compared to that of a presumed Longabaugh Donor in California following exhumation #2. The samples did not match. The theory was advanced that the Long DNA sample from exhumation #1 had become contaminated and that the contamination resulted in a "no-match" comparison. Thus, the need for Exhumation #3. Let me know where I've gone wrong.

  • Gaylen Robison
    May 5, 2009 3:06 p.m.

    Hi Harold Iverson, AKA GTB, and Kid Lutefisk. Are you really an Ex Pinkerton Agent? Are you absolutely not positive that you did not misrepresent?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 2:46 p.m.

    Ms Robison:
    Please accept my apology for a tardy response. This is not my medium. Quill pens, parchment, and squat bottles of India Ink are far more in keeping with my personality and abilities.

    I believe there were three exhumations of Bill Long.

    Exhumation #1: The first exhumation was conducted some time prior to January, 2007. I corresponded with two individuals involved from approximately January, 2007, to approximately March, 2007. This exhumation was conducted pursuant to a court order. Subsequent to the exhumation, some family members expressed the opinion that the family member petitioning the court for the exhumation order did not possess sufficient clarity of mind to competently execute the petition. The purpose of the exhumation was to attempt to verify that Bill Long was Bill McCarty. The possibility originated with Perry Jackson, son of Jerimiah "Kid" Jackson and Chloe Jane Morrell Jackson. Perry's published statement said of Bill Long: "We all knew he was an outlaw. I think he was Bill McCarty." The person who performed the exhumation gave Bill Long's height at death as 5' 7", or McCarty's presumed height. A qualified laboratory extracted DNA from Long's remains.

  • Archer834
    May 5, 2009 2:37 p.m.

    For some reason my post never made it. What's going on with the DNA results? That would pretty much solve the whole thing. Either didn't get a good sample to compare, it DID or DID NOT match or it's still being processed.


  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 1:23 p.m.

    There is a brief note at the bottom of the comment page listing the reasons why a comment will not be posted.

    "Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted."

    What would we do without Dan?

  • Daniel Buck
    May 5, 2009 11:35 a.m.

    Kid L.,

    There is a brief note at the bottom of the comment page listing the reasons why a comment will not be posted.


  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 10:04 a.m.

    Get over it Lute, it's already in the can, move on to Butch.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 9:49 a.m.

    (Continued)If you look at the total of the material referenced here and then add the Fraser/Hadsell interview of Bob Lee in Laramie, I don't see how it is possible for a rational mind to conclude anything other than Longabaugh was on the Little Snake from January, 1897 as reported by the Craig Courrier through August 1, 1897 as reported by everyone else save Bob Lee.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 9:39 a.m.

    Gillespie didn't "imply" anything. He stated quite plainly that Longabaugh was at Slater/Baggs/Dixon/Savery on the date of the Bell Forche robbery. Concurrent with Gillespie's letter, Longabaugh's attorney asked for a continuance in order to transport his witnesses to trial and named Gillespie, Al Reader, and Mrs. McIntosh among others. At that moment in time Bill Long was at Fremont, tripping the light fantastic with Luzernia.

    If Ernst in her new book says that Gillespie didn't name Longabaugh she is quite right. He doesn't. It will be very interesting to see how she treats this issue in view of the court records, the Gillespie monograph (not letter) the WPA Gouldy monograph, David Gillespie's WPA interview, and the Oliver St. material. In each of the listed documents Longabaugh is specifically named and two of them have David Gillespie driving Longabaugh in a buggy from Slater to the Reader Ranch to see a cowboy "friend".

    Then too, we have the question of W. D. "Billy" Smith being one of the arresting officers in both 1887 and 1897. In view of Smith's reputation it is unlikely he was confused about Longabaugh's identity.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 9:04 a.m.

    Is it possible for someone to tell me how long it takes for a comment to get posted? Because Mr. Buck, Anonymous, Ms Robison, and Ghosttown Bob were kind enough to reply to me, I responded to them. Quite awhile ago. I smell a rat. Then again, it might be lutefisk.

    As of 1992 I determined that computers were instruments of the devil, a fad, and would soon go away. I am still waiting for my prophesy to bear fruit. Perhaps it shall -- concurrent with the arrival of the Long/Longabaugh Test Results.

  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 7:46 a.m.

    You remind me of a one eyed calf, round and round, you go, dont know where you been nor where youre going.

    It seems you just cant comprehend what Gillespie implied. Harry Longabaugh probably did not participate in the Belle Fourche bank robbery. Bill Long was never mentioned in the letter. Ernst got it right, ask her to explain it to you.

  • AMP
    May 4, 2009 4:28 p.m.

    It's been quite a few weeks over the 8 week mark. Why have we not heard from anyone with news for so long? I admit I'm interested to see the outcome but I am definitely losing faith here...

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 4, 2009 1:16 p.m.

    "That makes Donna Ernst a member of the Bill Long crowd." Two plus two does not equal five, even if you say it does. I guess your trouble with math is why you have been unable, all of this time, to realize there were problems with your timeline. First Morrell, and now Gillepsie.

  • Anonymous
    May 4, 2009 11:56 a.m.

    That makes Donna Ernst a member of the Bill Long crowd.

    Kid Lutefisk
    I guess Kite and Garner were one of many things you forgot to research.
    Nickol was not the money behind the Home Ranch saloon in Baggs, nor was he involved in Ryan's saloon operations in Rawlins and Walcott.
    Wyoming has a lot of potash, I understand potash is used for Lutfisk?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 4, 2009 11:18 a.m.

    Well, I see the PTB only posted half of my last comment. Well, I was just congratulating the new "Kid" on the block on his prowess in figuring out the impact of the Gillespie letter. Even though I have posted it twice already, no one except Kid Lutefisk bothered to notice that nine months before Evinda's birth date was actually June 29th (not July 29th)Harry Longabaugh could not have both been home making babies as Bill Long and either working for the Readers or robbing banks at the same time.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 4, 2009 10:25 a.m.

    Now the Bill Long crowd have used David Gillespie's letter to prove that Longabaugh was not in S. Dakota on June 28th at the time of the robbery, but the letter also proves that he wasn't in Utah either. Even if they say that Gillespie was "covering" for Longabaugh ie. saying that he was near Slater on the 29th when he really wasn't. What that means is that if he wasn't around Slater on the 28th, then he was actually at Belle Fourche robbing banks, since he was identified as one of the robbers.

    Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh lose both ways.

  • Daniel Buck
    May 4, 2009 10:05 a.m.

    Kid Lutefisk,

    Re Tom Nichols being involved in 1887 in George Newbery's Patagonian estancia venture. Specifically?

    Re Cassidy's 1907 letter about ranching in Bolivia and Tex Rickard's ranching enterprise in Paraguay hundreds of miles away and several years later. The point is?

    Context re Fred Dodge. Dodges 6 March 1909 letter to William Pinkerton (quoted in a 22 March letter from the Chicago Pinkerton manager to Denver manager McParland) is a request for information. After receiving a wanted circular, Dodge wrote on 18 March, saying, "I received some information about the last of Feb. that Butch Cassidy was seen," and rattling on about Cassidy, Maxwell, McCarty, and "a man by the name of Hall." "I feel pretty sure that this information is correct," Dodge adds helpfully.

    McParland replied to the Chicago manager 25 March with a several page letter disparaging Dodge's detective abilities, saying that Dodge often drew on his imagination," and that he had "little use for a man who has lived on hot air the number of years that Captain Dodge has done."

    Maybe McParland was right; maybe not. But his opinion provides context.


  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 4, 2009 8:59 a.m.

    (continued) Uncle Earl Jackson in a July 2007 interview with Kid Nickle and yours truly, said that Charlie Anderson and Bill Long were employed at the Baker Horse Ranch, located approximately 20 miles northeast of Fremont in Paradise Valley. Uncle Earl fixed Long's employment at the Baker Horse Ranch from the time of Long's arrival in the area (1886-1889) until his marriage to the widow Luzernia Morrell on November 15, 1894.

    The Baker Horse Ranch in Paradise Valley is between 25 and 30 miles from the site of the Fish Lake hospital depending on which trail you take.

    Each of the evidentary items here are cross-corrobaration for the other and, if they are accurate, lead to the inescapable conclusion that Bill Long arrived in Utah before the late fall of 1889. If so, then Bill is not Harry.

    But then, we have the question, if Bill is not Harry, what was his history prior to arrival in Utah? The answer to that question is the same as for each and every other question discussed in these pages. It has been Hiding In Plain Sight for well over a century.

  • Gaylen Robison
    May 4, 2009 8:52 a.m.

    Kid Lutefisk. You said "According to page 2, Preliminary report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah Nov. 15, 2007, Bill Long was approximately 5'8" in height at death in 1936." You should be troubled with that. I'm troubled that you even have a Preliminary report at all. Where did you get it? Who signed it? That first exhumation was done illegally. There was no court order, not even a hearing. They removed only the skull and a thigh bone for testing. They didn't even use rubber gloves. They didn't know. The whole affair was a first class boondoggle! City of Duchesne didn't know either, they gave permission and furnished the backhoe. The only reason g.grandpa Long was "approximately 5'8" was because somebody wanted him to be 5'8".
    Doctor McCullough was not even involved with it then. The FIRST legal exhumation was December, 2008.
    Maybe that's why it's taking longer to get results. I hope this sets the record straight on that.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 4, 2009 8:34 a.m.

    According to William Wilson Morrell, Son of Cyrus Wilson Morrell, Grandson of Benjamin Morrell, Unknown Binding, Anonymous, LDS History Archive, Page 40, and William Wilson Morrell, Biography, Anonymous, Unpublished Monograph of 3 Pages, Page 2,a log hospital was constructed cira 1884 at Fish Lake, Utah. It was abandoned in 1886-1887. A piano was in the downstairs parlor of the two story structure. Enuch Sorensen and William Jensen testified that Charles Anderson, among others, shot the keys off the piano in the abandoned building. Anderson was fined $90.00 for his vandalism.

    According to Perry Jackson, youngest son of Jeremiah "Kid " Jackson, Bill Long said that shooting the keys off the Fish Lake hospital piano was "the most expensive piano lesson I ever took".

    The Fish Lake abandoned hospital burned down during hunting season in the fall of 1889 under "mysterious circumstances". Therefore, the keys of the piano were shot off prior to fall, 1889.

    On October 16, 1901 Silas and Luzernia Morrell's third oldest daughter, Mary Frances, married Charles Anerson, making Charlie Bill Longs ste-son-in-law. Anerson never disputed Long's claim to being one of the culprits who whot off the piano keys.

  • Disintrested Observer
    May 4, 2009 7:49 a.m.

    AC, Jayne, Lady, Anonymous: Just what was so offensive about asking: "I wondered if you, as someone who was intimately involved with the writing of the book, had an opinion on the matter???"

    Jeesh, He just asked a question. From what I read, he has given Flack credit for her answer. No insult was intended, yet you seem to have taken great umbrage over a simple question. Calling other people names gets you nowhere, but shows how small minded you all are.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 4, 2009 7:48 a.m.

    In 1937 Florence Viola Long Ehlers, the eldest child of Bill and Luzernia Long wrote a letter to her nephew, Silas Laverle Morrell. In that letter Viola (as she was known) said that Bill claimed "as near as he could remember" that he arrived in Utah at age 21. If Bill was born in 1867, as Kid Nickle claims, then Bill's arrival in Utah would have been in 1888. Harry Longabaugh was either in custody or incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming, from June, 1887 (the date of his second capture by Deputy Sheriff Eph K. Davis and Stock Detective William D. "Billy" Smith) until his pardon by Governor Thomas Moonlight on February 4, 1889. After a stage trip to Deadwood immediately after being pardoned, Longabaugh returned to Wyoming. On or about May 17, 1889 Longabaugh was in a dugout on Oil Creek, 35 miles north of Sundance when Sheriff E. B. Armstrong and Deputy Sheriff James Swisher shot and killed Buck Hanby in Longabaugh's presence. Whether "as near as he could remember" means 1887, 1888, or 1889, Harry and Bill must be two different people because a mortal person can not be in two places at once.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 3, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    Harry Longabaugh was measured as being 5'9" tall at incarceration in 1887 and 5'10" tall in 1902 as recorded on his P.N.D.A., Card Number 1961, Harry Longabaugh, 470R, Container 93, Folio 3, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

    According to Page 2, Preliminary Report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah, November 15, 2007,Bill Long was "approximately" 5' 8" in height at death in 1936. Use of the word "approximately" is troubling in this context. McCullough noted Longs evidentiary spndylolysis of the lumbar vertebra and Longs arthritic development of the lumbar centra but does not tell us if either notation was extant in the height calculation at death. The individual who conducted Longs first exhumation gave the height of the remains at 5'7".

    The Long and the short of the matter is that Bill was far too little to be Harry. Kid Nickle has been hoist on his own petard. I'll leave Little DB the floor so he can clean up after me.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 3, 2009 12:29 p.m.

    Thanks, Kid. You're quite right. Kite/Ryan was the predecessor. Would you happen to know the first or earliest use of the name Home Ranch Saloon to refer to the Nichols/Ryan establishment in Baggs? The front page of the Craig Courier carries ads from 1896 onward. Was Nichols involved in the Home Ranch Saloon in Rawlins with Ryan?

    I appreciate any help. After three meals a day of lutefisk my mind has become more corroded than Mr. Buck believes Mrs. Betenson's became. Unlike Mrs. Betenson, I don't have a defense if Mr. Buck levels a similar charge at me.

    I can't find any evidence that Tom Nichols owned the Mint Saloon in Price, Utah, prior to 1896. Do you know if he did?

    The same Judge McGinnis who locked up Harry Longabaugh in 1887, colluded with Walter Stoll in Cheyenne to quash Tom Nichol's Texas murder warrant in 1890. In 1896 McGinnis moved to Price and opened a law office, and represented Nichols. In 1899 after J. B. Buhr was arrested at Granite Tom Nichols was a character witness --advised by McGinnis. The case was dismissed by Judge McCarty -- Tom McCarty's cousin.

  • Kid
    May 2, 2009 3:10 p.m.

    Kid Lutefisk
    1895: Kite/Ryan before Nichols/Ryan 1896

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 11:21 a.m.

    Right after the Stock Growers met, Charlie Perkins, Bert and Kid Charter's relation by marriage, sold his Snake River ranch. At that time, Bert and Maud moved to Pinedale. Further hint: Kirk Calvert, whose daughter Mary married Elzy Lay, was the last wagon boss for the Ell Seven outfit before they went belly up in 1892. Charley Ayer bought the assets of the Ell Seven, established the Bar Ell Seven, and was the Pinkerton Informant not only of this document but countless others --always to the detriment of Harry Longabaugh. To close out 1908, remember that Jano and George musgrave got hitched on November 2, 1908.

    3.) Your Coup de grace, shot three, is your Dodge document. You can make this lethal by following up on Hall. Hint: Hall is Tom Hall. Tom Hall is the alias of Tom Nichols. Tom Nichols was one of the moving forces behind the Newberry, Crockett, and Jones cattle raising operations in Patagonia as of 1887. Nichols is the cousin (not brother) of William Midvale "Mid" Nichols. Mid Nichols was the money behind the Nichols/Ryan saloon in Baggs. Also follow up on Tom McCarty. McCarty's Pinkerton Cross Index # is 1671.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 10:55 a.m.

    (Continued)In my opinion, the 1-2-3 to dispose of Buck is, in order:

    1) The November 12, 1907 letter from J. P. Maxwell to The Boys at Concordia. The letter is printed on pages 98-99 in DUBAS If I were you I would devote considerable time to Santa Cruz and its geographic location to Rio Paraguay, Concepcion, Caraya Vuelta, Cochabamba, and the description of the land Hutch wanted. Hint, the locations referenced are directly linked to Tex Rickard and George West Musgrave and a very special ranching venture.

    2.)Pinkerton Denver Criminal History No 1597, George Cassidy, Train Robber and Hold-Up, June 8, 1908,Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C. You already have the document, you just didn't cite it correctly. To turn this document into a lethal shot so you can claim your trophy Buck, conentrate on the Snake River Stock Growers Association meeting at Slater. Hint: George West Musgrave married Jano Magor. Jano Magor's older sister was Maud Lorene Magor who was Bert Charter's wife. At the time of the Ayer and Hadsell reports the Stock Growers met.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 10:09 a.m.

    (Continued)2) Butch was seen in Woodside, Utah, in the company of a man named Hall on March 1, 1909.

    If you follow Mr. Buck's most excellent admonition to read raw reports with a critical eye and a healthy dose of scepticism, you will discover that your F. J. Dodge document is the "smoking gun" that blasted away Mr. Buck's absurd contention that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente, Bolivia on November 6, 1908. I'm fairly confident that you'll do precisely that, and therefore let me be the first to congratulate you and Kid Nickle as the Dynamic Duo that established Ms Meadows and Mr Buck as the premiere practitioners of Slapstick History and Intellectual Pratfalls.

    Congratulations would be premature if all the arrows in your quiver had blunt tips. A Pinkerton Document that is not corroborated, verified by independent documentation, and placed in context is an arrow with a blunt tip. Therefore sharpen it to the point where it penetrates with the same force as a .44-40. Remember, deliver a double tap to the red zone, then the coup de grace between the eyes.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 9:32 a.m.

    Informed One:

    F. J. Dodge was not a Pinkerton Informant. He was a Special Officer for Wells Fargo Express Company. The Dodge document is not to be cited as "Pinkerton History #3445". Chicago Criminal History No. 3445 is the Pinkerton National Detective Agency Cross Index File Number for George Parker, three variations of the Cassidy alias, and the alias Ingerfield. The correct citation for the Dodge Document is:

    Pinkerton Chicago Office Memorandum to James McParland, Esq., March 22, 1909, Chicago Criminal History No. 3445, George Parket et al, Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington D. C.

    The document just cited reports the contents of a letter from Special Officer Dodge writing from Raton, New Mexico, to Principal William A. Pinkerton at the Chicago Office. The date of Dodge's letter was March 6, 1909. The salient points of the letter are:

    (1) Dodge received what he believed to be credible information on February 28, 1909, that "Butch Cassidy" was in Price and Cisco, Utah prior to February 28, 1909, in the company of Gunplay Maxwell and Tom McCarty. McCarty and Maxwell were known to inhabit the Henry Mountains.

  • Little DB
    May 2, 2009 8:02 a.m.

    Tempus fugit is a Latin expression meaning "time flees",

  • The informed one
    May 1, 2009 10:43 p.m.

    Not only did Lula believe Butch returned but so did Pinkerton informant F. J. Dodge. (Pinkerton History #3345). Also Pinkerton memo dated Feb 26, 1910 states Butch was seen in 1909 in Wyoming and Utah. And Pinkerton memo dated June 8, 1908 states Butch was in Evanston Wyoming in May 1908. According to DB Butch was in Bolivia in May 1908. Butch cant be in two places at the same time. I will go with the Pinkertons

  • Driftwood
    May 1, 2009 7:19 p.m.

    I see DB asks the questions and then answers the question. Would the answer be fact or would it be DB opinion?

  • Driftwood
    May 1, 2009 7:07 p.m.

    How about that KSL Blog poll, isnt that amazing? 87% believe Sundance died in Utah, 8% believe he died in Bolivia.

  • Anonymous
    May 1, 2009 6:59 p.m.

    "Below is the full quote, from the Q&A in the 2002 True West (online on our website). Memory does fade with age, but if its any comfort to you, I think Lula made up the return story." Per Buck.

    Are you stating Buck, that you never accused Mrs. Betenson of possible having a corroded mind? Not even in one of your ads. (see above) I recall someone showing awhile back, in one of your many "articles", where you had made this accusation in writing. (is it still there or has it been removed?) Save us all from this, just be man enough to admit what you did and go on. It is simple. Or does the truth catch in your throat? I understand you denied it in Rock Springs and you still won't back up what yos have said. I, like most others, are fed up with this and you.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 1, 2009 3:29 p.m.

    Would you please tell me the date when you will publish the results of your DNA test results? Sufficient time has elapsed since the third exhumation/reinternment to have compared the DNA of every resident of Boston. Tempus fugit.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 1, 2009 3:11 p.m.

    (Continued) If you accept as fact that a mortal person can not be in two places at one time, isn't this dispositive of the issue of whether or not Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh? If not dispositive, would you please tell me why it is not?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 1, 2009 3:08 p.m.

    I'm delighted to find my old pals pounding the snot out of Dan Buck and his Pennsylvania Housewife side-kick, Donna Ernst. Question:
    (1) The headstone for Evinda Ann Long a/k/a Vinda Long Merkley in the Duchesne, Utah, Cemetery gives her birthdate as March 29, 1898. Evinda was Bill and Luzernia Long's second child, and I believe Luzernia's eighth child. Under the rule that the first baby can come any time, but the rest take 9 months, that would mean Bill and Luzernia were doing the horizontal mambo in Fremont, Wayne County, Utah on or about July 29, 1897.
    (2) According to David Gillespie's October 12, 1897 letter to his mother, Harry Longabaugh was in the Baggs/Dixon/Savery/Slater area on June 28, 1897, the date of the Belle Fourche bank robbery, and did not leave the Little Snake area until August 1, 1897. After leaving the Little Snake area he was spotted in Red Lodge, Montana on September 18, 1897 and was arrested 20 miles north of Lavina, Montana, on September 22, 1897. Harry subsequently broke jail on October 31, 1897, at Deadwood, South Dakota.

  • Daniel Buck
    May 1, 2009 1:24 p.m.

    Disinterested Observer,

    The quarrel with my 1998 letter to Dora Flack is not with the content, but that I inquired at all. There are those -- obscurants -- who believe that once a question is settled in their mind, further inquiry by others is out-of-bounds, or as they like to put it "insulting."

    My letter to Flack summarized the mystery about whether he had died in South America or returned to the US, and noted while Lula's view was "quite clear," that we had "learned of other opinions from other members of the Parker family expressing doubts about Lula's version." Nothing controversial there. It's true.

    The letter closed, "I wondered if you, as someone who was intimately involved with the writing of the book, had an opinion on the matter."

    Flack replied with a spirited defense of the books veracity. We quoted from her letter in our article. See "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't Decide."


  • Daniel Buck
    May 1, 2009 12:56 p.m.


    Below is the full quote, from the Q&A in the 2002 True West (online on our website). Memory does fade with age, but if its any comfort to you, I think Lula made up the return story.


    Q: How come Butch's sister Lula Parker Betenson said he came home in 1925 if he didn't?

    A: At the time Lula made her claim, many people believed that Butch had returned, so she may have seen no harm in simply inventing a visit to trump Hollywood and write a book with a better story of how Butch, "the sainted abbot of the world's largest gang of outlaws" (as she once described him), defeated death. A more charitable explanation is that age had corroded her memory -- that is, some relative had visited the family's home in Circleville, and decades later that person became Butch in her mind. (Memories are memories of a memory, as the neuroscientists like to say.) In any case, most of Butch's immediate kin, including his father and other siblings, said he never returned.

  • Anonymous
    May 1, 2009 11:23 a.m.

    For being "disintrested" you do seem to have some misguided interest. It might help your presentation if you knew what your were talking about.

    "Dan Buck and his "supposed" insult of Lula Betensen" --- Comes from Buck stating, "Mrs. Betenson's mind had possibly corroded with age." What part of that don't you understand?

    "Buck seems to think he made a valid inquiry to Flack about her opinion. Others seem to think that he was insulting Betensen."

    You again "seem" to miss the point. Insulting Mrs. Betenson has been addressed above. Buck writing Mrs. Flack, asking if she thought Lula was telling the truth, was an insult to Mrs. Flack. (Do you really think Mrs. Flack would be part of an effort that was knowingly not true?) Have you met Mrs. Flack? If you don't understand this, it might be a good idea for you to stay--"disinterested".

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 1, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    Concerning the Gold Watch and letter. Dan Buck has provided the following: The date of the letter from Tiffany's, the date of the watch purchase, who purchased it, their address, the serial number of the watch, and the price. What else do you want? short of posting a photocopy of said letter on the board (which can't be done), he has included just about everything in the letter. Even if he were able to post a photocopy of the said letter, someone could say that it had been "photo-shopped."

    To really confirm that the letter is not a "fake" which Jerry has claimed, you need to write Tiffany & Co. and ask. As I mentioned before, they have an archive service which will gladly forward any and all information to you.

    good luck

  • Disintrested Observer
    May 1, 2009 7:17 a.m.

    It has been a while since I have been on this board, and it looks again that the subject has turned to it's favorite topic, Dan Buck and his supposed "insult" of Lula Betensen - And everyone else taking offense to it. I still have not seen the exact quote that is so offensive. If Bob Jayne would "produce" the quote like the rest seem to be wanting Buck to do with the Tiffany watch thing, then maybe everyone can see just how insulting it was.

    There seems to be two sides to this. Buck seems to think he made a valid inquiry to Flack about her opinion. Others seem to think that he was insulting Betensen.

    Well, "lets see the goods" so we can decide for ourselves, or is this just about having your feelings hurt and then whining about it???

  • A Lady
    April 30, 2009 5:06 p.m.

    If I may state my opinion, Mr. Buck, in your book, what you did may be explained as a "query". Sir, in mine, it is nothing more than an insult.

    Mr. Buck, you can attempt to explain (excuse) it with all the eloquence you want. It is still insulting, when you ask an individual, if they feel their co-author is telling the truth. Would you have been more pleased if Mrs. Flack had answered, I only co-author books with those that don't tell the truth.

    If you truly believe such a "query" is appropriate, you are indeed a sad, little man.

    Almost still a Lady

  • Daniel Buck
    April 30, 2009 4:23 p.m.


    Dora Flack and I spoke by telephone, after our exchange of letters. She was quite candid and forthcoming. She told me that in her opinion, the "returned" Butch Cassidy was William T. Phillips. "I honestly believe he died as William Phillips," she told me. She said that although she had "no proof," it was based on everything Lula Parker Betenson had said, and that in her view Betenson did not want the Phillips fact made public.

    As we know, Betenson said Butch died in the same year and in the same part of the country as William T. Phillips, and occasionally used the alias Phillips, but was not William T. Phillips.

    No wonder the controversy persists.


  • AC
    April 30, 2009 2:51 p.m.

    "Dora Flack kindly gave me her answers, and I published them in the article. Only an obscurant would object to that." Mr. Buck says------

    Mr. Buck, you believe what ever you want, even some of what you write. If I am standing in the way of your progress, oh my goodness. By the way did you ever speak to Mrs. Flack face to face, so you could "see" how she felt about your "query"? She is a lady, Mr. Buck, she is also very polite. I am sure you have at least heard of these words? Right?

    Along with your wonderful "words", I presume you are (at least in your mind) moving forward. When you get a moment, it might pay you to check what direction you are actually going. Just a friendly tip.

    All my best to your future success Daniel.


  • Daniel Buck
    April 30, 2009 1:50 p.m.


    That is the methodology: Do research. Trawl archives. Read historic newspapers. Query people with a knowledge of the subject under inquiry.

    Dora Flack kindly gave me her answers, and I published them in the article. Only an obscurant would object to that.


  • Bob Jayne
    April 30, 2009 1:00 p.m.

    Dear Mr. Buck:
    Since you have chosen this method of giving me credit and humbling me with your praise, I will return the favor. First, my thanks to A C. As he mentioned I have tried to stay away from this. If memory serves, I think my last comment was Feb. 27, regarding the new book by Harvey Murdock. (I hope that is correct) And it is an excellent book. (Although I dont think Mr. Murdock buys your story)
    Mr. Buck you seem to think I am the only one who has seen the letter. Yes, when I first met Mrs. Flack, she gave me copies of your letter and her reply. (Ever wonder why?) A Parker family member was also there. Those letters have been seen (and thought very poorly of) by many.
    The truth of what happened in Rock Springs and your tactics are well known, as we both know.
    So, please allow me to stay out of this. One little thing, as a past master at the art, I was surprised at your spelling of filibuster.

    Bob Jayne

  • AC
    April 30, 2009 11:30 a.m.

    I invited Jayne to read said letter to the audience members so the they could judge for themselves. Jayne refused. He fillibustered, tried to change the subject, sputtered. Fell silent.

    Not being there, I can relate only what others (reportedly) said occurred. Knowing Mr. Jayne retired some time ago from dealing with this (I'm sure he will be honored at your kind words) I feel the other side needs presented.

    When asked about the letter, you replied, That is what we do. It proved what? Why in the world even write such a thing? Apparently Jayne believed it spoke for itself and saw no need to waste others time by reading such a sad tactic. He fell silent after asking, why you had said the derogatory comment about Lulas mind. Comments you and Mrs. Buck immediately denied. (Later, your mind cleared and you admitted not only saying, but writing those sad, insulting words.) My guess, Jayne did not know how to deal with one, who did not speak the truth.

    Mr. Buck has the right to think what he does is acceptable. Others and I believe otherwise.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 30, 2009 6:17 a.m.

    Just Passing Through,

    At a 2006 history confab in Rock Springs, WY, Bob Jayne -- who lurks in these latitudes -- announced polemically that he had in his hand a letter I had written to Dora Flack in which I had tried to get her to say Lula Parker Betenson had lied, etc.

    I invited Jayne to read said letter to the audience members so the they could judge for themselves. Jayne refused. He fillibustered, tried to change the subject, sputtered. Fell silent.

    In my letter, I had asked Flack if, as Betenson's co-author, she had an opinion about the controversy among Parker descendants over Butch Cassidy's fate. Flack replied that she didn't doubt Betenson's veracity: "Never would I have attempted the task if I hadn't believed Lulas story."

    I used that quote in our 1998 WOLA Journal article, "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't Decide," which you can find online.


  • Just Passing Thru
    April 29, 2009 4:57 p.m.

    Perhaps Mr. Buck would prefer showing the letter he "reportedly" wrote to Lula Parker Betenson's co-author, asking if Mrs. Flack thought Mrs. Betenson was telling, shall we say, the truth.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2009 6:45 a.m.

    "You have asked Buck to produce the letter. Maybe what you ought to do is your own research." Mr. GBob suggests the above.

    Sure that might work. But what is the hang-up with Mr. Buck sharing a letter showing proof of a claim he makes? What in the world is the harm in that? Of course, if he doesn't have the document, it might be a little harder to produce. This kind gesture by Mr. Buck, would save Jerry a lot of time, especially, if what he is looking for, doesn't exist. Just a suggestion, like Gbob's.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 28, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    Jerry: RE: your 2:08 p.m. April 12, 2009 comment about, among other things, the letter from Tiffany & Co. concerning the gold watch, purchased by Parker for Longabaugh and his wife. You have asked Buck to produce the letter. Maybe what you ought to do is your own research. Why don't you check Tiffany's website for the address and number to contact them. They have an archive service that will check their records and confirm the purchase. While your at it, ask for information on the watch that Longabaugh bought on June 25, 1902 too. There are ways to confirm others research, ask Anonymous, I sent her running all over the place looking for stuff.

  • Kid
    April 28, 2009 9:30 a.m.

    If you find your Perry up on the continental divide, in August 1900, might be the same Perry Im looking for, last seen headed for Colorado with $20 gold pieces. Unknown if Perry, first name or last.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 27, 2009 11:32 a.m.


    Thanks. Will continue to work on Perry connection.

  • Anonymous
    April 27, 2009 10:48 a.m.

    GHOST HI ?

  • Kid
    April 25, 2009 9:27 a.m.

    Ben Kilpatrick at Baxter's Curve,
    March 13, 1912
    C.F. Eckhardt
    There were others involved and suspicion centered around Ben's brother Felix Kilpatrick and Outlaw Dan Sheffield, brother to Ben's sister in-law (Boone's wife , Truda Sheffield).

    William Frank Sheffield Jr. May 24, 1876, Brown County, Texas, Feb. 18, 1953, Sanderson, Terrell County, Texas.
    Daniel Pinkney Sheffield, Oct. 22, 1877, Brown County,Texas, July 29, 1938, Van Horn, Culberson County, Texas.

    Odessa American, The
    Wednesday, December 10, 1958 Odessa, Texas
    Last Rites Set For Iraan Man
    IRAAN (Staff) Graveside rites for Daniel Boone Kilpatrick, 87, former Iraan constable who died in General Hospital here Tuesday, were to be held at 4 p. m. Wednesday in Iraan Cemetery under direction of Moore Funeral
    Home of McCamey. A resident of Pecos for over 60 years, Kilpatrick had served as a constable at Iraan for many
    years. Survivors include the widow; three sons, Wright Kilpatrick of Barnhart, Buster Kilpatrick of the U. S. Air Force in Turkey and Billy Kilpatrick of Mapleton, Ore.; a sister, Alice Kilpatrick of Christoval; and three grandchildren.

  • Kid
    April 25, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    I never could make the Sheffield connection to the Wild Bunch. Bige Duncan and Jim Sheffield were mentioned in one article.

    George Taplin Duncan was married to Ollie Ann Binnion, daughter of Robert G. Binnion and Amanda C. Brown.
    Abijah Elam {A. E. Bige} Duncan, older brother of Tap Duncan, was married to Nancy B. Ketchum, daughter of Green Berry Ketchum and Temperance Katherine Wydick.
    Truda Eugenia Sheffield, daughter of William Franklin Sheffield and Virginia Judson Hopkins, was married to Daniel Boone Kilpatrick, son of George W. Kilpatrick and Mary G. Davis.

  • TM
    April 21, 2009 11:24 a.m.

    You guys crack me up! You have to admit this is a great Blog!

  • Anonymous
    April 21, 2009 10:47 a.m.

    It was meant as a definite compliment to KID- He is very good at saying what he believes and puts it way more plainly than some/most of the others

  • Horse Creek Cowby
    April 21, 2009 10:44 a.m.


    Even hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay is useful in giving leads to follow. That's why I suggested that the leads in Baggs bore following.
    Right now, I am interested in the connection between Tap Duncan and the Kilpatricks and the Sheffields. As I understand it, Tap was married to Ben's niece; Boone was married to Truda Sheffield; and in 1913 Truda's brother Dan killed Felix Kilpatrick. The town of Sheffield, Texas is named after Will Sheffield allegedly Truda's father. Additionally there was a Jim Sheffield and a Gus Sheffield who raised horses. What I am looking for is a connection to Martin Sheffield and to the Perry's and Crocket's from Ozona, Texas. Those connections, if they exist, may explain a missing link involving the so-called "Wild Bunch."

  • Anonymous
    April 21, 2009 10:10 a.m.

    "Following my grandfathers advice, I have not revealed everything I know, yet."---From the Kid.

    And then there are those that try and "reveal" more than they really know. Almost seems like, if you know what you are talking about, you don't have to retell it over and over. Sooner or later, folks will figure it out for themselves. Right, Mr. Buck?

  • Kid
    April 21, 2009 9:11 a.m.

    Youll be happy to know that I have it all in writing. But its of little use to factual history. I can document names, places, dates, and events through Civil War pension files, legal documents etc. As it has been repeated several times on this blod, the Pinkerton files, newspaper articles and Seringo are unreliable sources. Unfortunately, that puts my story in the hearsay, double hearsay, triple hearsay category. Its a fascinating story, but its just a story.
    However, I can and have revealed bits and pieces of the story, along with research material, that has and will benefit others in their research. I have convinced at least a couple of fellows, that I know at least a little bit about the subject. Although, one fellow still disagrees with me, about Grubbed the Left Ear. Following my grandfathers advice, I have not revealed everything I know, yet.

  • Anonymous
    April 21, 2009 8:56 a.m.

    "Kid " seems to have more going for him than Mr. Buck.

    Mr. Curious, are you insulting the Kid, or trying to compliment him? Did you notice the Kid does not rely on reported information, nor does he insult those that may not agree with him. Big improvement.

    Keep up the good work Kid.

    The Kid does seem to lack the ability to direct us to "items" his wife has written. (Different and nice.) One other thought, he isn't afraid to answer "all" questions.

  • Curious
    April 21, 2009 8:33 a.m.

    What gives this Dan Buck the credentials to be known as the "Foremost authority" on anything- Who is Dan Buck?
    "Kid " seems to have more going for him than Mr. Buck.

  • TM
    April 20, 2009 9:43 a.m.

    Kid... For the sake of history... I implore you to please write down what you know in a journal or simply a outline that included what you know to be true followed by stories and then hear say for the sake of future researchers. I don't know who you are or your age...but what you have shared has been very good reading to date. Your information will be appreciated by those seeking historical facts.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 20, 2009 9:42 a.m.


    I'm sorry I've tuckered you out. You are right that there's neither fame nor fortune at the end of most literary trails. There's an old joke in writing circles that the only books that sell are those about cats, sex, or Nazis, meaning that a sure-fire best seller would be The Sex Life of a Nazi Cat.

    Nonetheless, you might consider something briefer than a book, for example, an article in the Journal of the Wild West History Association summarizing what you know. Most people, including myself, would read it with interest and appreciation.


  • Kid
    April 20, 2009 7:52 a.m.

    Gaylen Robison
    Let me put it this way, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo Longabaugh were close friends as early as 1893. Bert worked for Charlie Perkins at Dixon, he may have known Harry as early as the late 1880s. Their friendship. Documented.
    Bert Charters step-father was quartermaster agent at Fort Duchesnse, Utah, 1893 to 1896. Documented.
    Did Harry Alonzo accompany Bert when he visited his mother at Fort Duchesnse? At the very least, Bert knew or met Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse. Probable. Did Harry Alonzo become Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse? I guess the DNA will have to answer that question. No one ever mentioned the name Henry Long in association with Harry Alonzo in any conversation I can recall. Harry Alonzo Longabaugh, (seldom referred to as Longabaugh or the Sundance Kid), was extremely well liked by those who knew him. The old timers, said that after his visit with Bert in 1908, nothing was ever heard of Harry Alonzo again.
    Sorry Gaylen, Thats about all I dare say without getting into the hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay, business.

  • Kid
    April 20, 2009 7:49 a.m.

    My grandmother would rise from her grave and kick my rear end, if I ever wrote a book, Shes probably not very happy with me, as it is. Write a book no way, Im to old for fame and fortune, besides, most of the authors Ive talked to say, theres very little fortune to be made. If the fame includes defending your book for the rest of your life, no thanks. As for the historical aspect, historians will still be trying to sort out fact from fiction two hundred years from now. Its time for me to take a break, and let you people get back to Henry Long, Im plumb tuckered out trying to keep you in line Dan.

  • A C
    April 19, 2009 6:13 p.m.

    Mr. Kid:

    My hat is off to you. You state what, more than likely, are facts, without running others down. A friend of mine, Mr. Harv Murdock (Grandson of Elza Lay) sounds a lot like you. Doesn't blow a lot of self promoting wind, just says what was.

    Thank you. If you ever (which I don't think you will) write a book, pleasse let me know. I have a couple of so called "Western History" books I would like to trade in. A pleasure reading what you have to say. And I don't seem to hear you blowing your own horn. Don't quit now!


  • Daniel Buck
    April 19, 2009 5:31 p.m.


    Challenge away, but don't pass up the opportunity to write up what you know. Share your knowledge, it's part of history.


  • Gaylen Robison
    April 19, 2009 4:37 p.m.

    Would you please tell us what you know about Harry Alonzo Longabaugh? Some of us out here sure would thank you kindly if we knew more.
    Thank you.

  • Kid
    April 19, 2009 3:40 p.m.

    About thirty or more years before you ever heard of Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh, I was listening to men retell their personal experiences and memories of Butch Cassidy, Harry Alonzo, The Wild Bunch, Jack Ryan, Ora Haley, Noah and Albert Reader, Jeff and Mike Dunbar, David Gillespie, Wilcox, Tipton, Winnemucca, etc., etc. I knew Tom Vernon, John Gooldy, David Gillespie, Ed Wren, etc. I knew a man, who not only was there, but participated. When Charles Kelly tried to interview him, he threw him out of the house, told Kelly, Ill never tell you what I know, if you ever come around again, Ill cut your lying tongue out. He once told me never tell a newspaper man or writer what you know, theyll screw it up. Something, Ive tried to remember when dealing with authors of western outlaw history. Fortunately for me, I did not, nor do I intend to write a book. As a descendant of two members of Cassidys outlawry, I have every right to challenge your or any other version of events, when I find evidence contrary to what yourself and others have written, or said.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 18, 2009 6:56 p.m.

    The intriguing thing about Tap Duncan is that persons who allegedly knew Duncan positively identified the corpse at Parachute as Tap Duncan. As indicated by Geoff Dobson, Tap lived to 1944 and thus the eyeball witnesses in Parachute were in error. That also indicates the frailties of eyeball witnesses and identifications. Tap, however, was not necessarily as pure as the driven snow (which is still falling in Horse Creek). In 1889, his older brother Dick Duncan slew a family with the proverbial blunt object near Eagle Pass and stole their wagon and household goods. Court records suggest that Tap may have been at least indirectly involved. After appeals to the Texas Court of Appeals and the US Supreme Court, Dick was the star performer at the only legal hanging in Maverick County. Tap was the nephew by marriage of Tom Ketchum. Again, the significance of Tap is the doubt as to Harvey Logan's death raised by the misidentification, something we are still debating as undoubtedly we will be debated as to Sundance one hundred years from now.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 18, 2009 4:58 p.m.


    Whatever your point is, it's buried in a miasma of incomprehensible references. The report that Dimaio wrote is a primary source, not a secondary source. Whether it's accurate or not in all respects is another question. The "V111 history memo"? What??

    In Meadows (2003), she wrote that after an 1889 holdup the "Pinkertons sent ace detective Charles A. Siringo" after the bandits, but he lost their trail. That's a reference to how the agency viewed him; it has nothing to do with whether what he later wrote was accurate or not.

    "New Revelations About Harvey Logan Following the Parachute Train Robbery," WOLA Journal, vol. VI, no. 1, Spring 1997, is about controversy over who died, not Tap Duncan's family. Duncan makes an appearance on the second to the last page of the article.

    Interesting item re Tap Duncan's brother, James. If I had known of it, I would have given it a line in the article, in the section about the interconnections between the Ketchums, Sheffields, Duncans, and Kilpatricks.

    In fact, the article not yet written is the one about all those familial links. Why not take a shot at it yourself?


  • Anonymous
    April 18, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    We seem to have a "dodge em" champion in our midst. Why not answer ALL your questions Mr. Buck? Not just those you can!

  • Kid
    April 18, 2009 3:08 p.m.

    Typo, The Tap Duncan article. Its only 10 pages.

    The individual who posted this, has a different definition of Sourcing the Pinkerton files.

    Using his (DB) definition everything in the Pinkerton files is an unconfirmed secondary source. Every Cassidy historian including Buck use these unconfirmed secondary Pinkerton sources as the basis for their Cassidy history. The first is the Diamo report. The second is the April 3, 1902 memo. The third is V111 history memo. There are many others, they do not question, and they are all secondary.
    In Buck's book on page 34 he refers to Siringo as "The Pinkerton's Ace Detective". If Siringo found something that contradicts what Buck has written, Siringo's discovery then requires confirmation from other sources. When Ernst, Paterson and every other modern writer use Buck as a source they state what he tells them as an unquestionable fact,. that does not require any confirmation because it is the finale word.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 18, 2009 2:21 p.m.


    Reports of the whereabouts of BC&SK are almost too numerous to count; if they were ever written up, all of them, the essay would be novella-length.

    As I've mentioned before there are dozens, perhaps now upwards of 75, different accounts of the death of Butch Cassidy on three continents between 1898 and the 1970s. Sundance, always relegated to second fiddle, only has a couple dozen expiration tales.

    Consider that in the early 1900s there were men who looked like Butch, who pretended to be Butch. There were informants who wanted to report Butch, whether they saw him or not, people who said they knew him, whether they had ever laid eyes on him in their life. There were also Butch Cassidys in the newspapers -- a boxer, a wrestler, and, get this, a race horse.

    Last month, Utah newspapers carried an obit for Bart Anderson, a longtime folklorist, guide, story teller, and prankster in southern Utah. Ranger Bart, as he was known, said Butch was buried in Parowan and Sundance and Ethel resided, skeletal arm in skeletal arm, in a Leeds cemetery.

    Ambrose Bierce, now there's a mystery.


  • Anonymous
    April 18, 2009 12:35 p.m.

    "In your book on page 132 you state on Feb 4, 1901 Butch purchased a beautiful gold watch for Etta for $40.10. Your source is an Email from Dan Buck. There is no documentation for this purchase. It never happened. You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual.
    If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review."

    Haven't we been here before? If he had such a thing, there is no reason to hide it, is there? Unless, of course, he only "reportedly" has it. Could he have created such a thing to back a theory? Surely not. Where is it then?

  • Kid
    April 18, 2009 9:06 a.m.

    James P. Duncan, older brother of George Taplin Duncan.
    James P. Duncan, according to his death certificate was born January 17, 1862, in Leon County, Texas. He operated the store in Three Creeks, Idaho. On March 7, 1898 he married Elizabeth "Lizzie" Helsley, in Mountain Home, Idaho. According to the Anaconda article, Cassidy, Longabaugh and Carver stopped at his store for supplies, before the Winnemucca bank robbery.
    James and Lizzie operated the store at Three Creeks until sometime after 1910.
    James Duncan, then becomes a saloon keeper at Jarbidge, Nevada. In 1918, Barry Ketchum Duncan is bartending at his uncles saloon. By 1920, James Duncan is divorced from Lizzie and living in Rogerson, Idaho. James P. Duncan died November 24, 1943, Kingman, Mohave County, Arizona.
    One thing that caught my attention and raised a red flag, other than the date and names in the Anaconda Standard article, was the Three Creeks episode. If anything, Three Creeks was a prearranged supply point on their way to Winnemucca. Cassidy, Carver and Longabaugh knew Jim Duncan through Tap Duncan. Im surprised that someone who wrote an 18 page article on Tap Duncan missed the connection.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 17, 2009 7:09 p.m.

    Kid, Five years ago, the Star-Tribune reported that Bad Bob's body had been found north of Rawlins. Unfortunately, the skeleton upon measurement was several inches too short. Thus, we have another indivdual we can search for beside Etta, Mrs. Porter, and Ambrose Bierce. That is why I asked for the indicated height of poor old Bill Long. There was not a direct answer to the question as to whether actual measurements were made of Bill (as opposed to comparisom of photos)

    With regards to reports of sightings. The Salt Lake Herald, June 13, 1905, page 6, reported that Butch had visited Cheyenne. That, however, is inconsistent with his being in South America at the time. Incidently, Geoff Dobson on his website reports that George Taplin "Tap" Duncan died in Kingman in 1944 after being struck by a Ford.

    I assume Dan reads this blog since he has often responded to commens by others.

  • Kid
    April 17, 2009 5:18 p.m.

    Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1908 Month: 02-February Day: 22 Page: 01
    J. P. RYAN HURT.
    Fall of Rock in Coal Mine at Walcott Pins Him Down
    On Wednesday J. P. Ryan of this city meet with a serious accident in his coal mine at Walcott. and it is a miracle that he Was" not killed outright. He had employed some new miners a few days ago, and on Wednesday went to the mine to see how work was progressing. He was in the tunnel watching the progress of the work when without any warning a large piece of rock fell from the roof, striking him on the back of the head and shoulders He attempted to jump out of the way but the rock caught him on the back and hips and pinned him to the ground. The rock so heavy that the miners had to use a pry to release him from his perilous position. "Mr. Ryan was at once brought to Rawlins and is now at his home and is doing as well as possible under the circumstances.

  • Kid
    April 17, 2009 5:17 p.m.

    As Im sure you know, Charlie Ayers and Bob Meldrum were Pinkerton operatives.
    Ayers didnt say he was told Longabaugh was in Baggs, he knew Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others just confirmed Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others, who reported Cassidy was in Rawlins, said he came to see his old friend Ryan, who had been seriously hurt.

    HCC, tell Dan, Sharkey was the name of the dog in the photo.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 17, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    As to Sundance and Butch in Rawlins in 08, the sources are, then, what Daly told Hadsell and possibly what Ryan told Craig who in turn told Hadsell, and what an unknown person told Ayres as to Johnson. Not admissible in a court of law (hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay), but bears looking into. "reportedly," Elzy Lay visited Baggs sometime around September of '07 bearing with him the remains of money that he previously stored in a tack room of the Jones Brothers' store in Alma, stealing Jake Hildenbrand's horse. See Tanner, Karen Holliday, "New Mexico Prisoner #1348"

  • Kid
    April 17, 2009 7:28 a.m.

    In the latter part of May 1908, several men, who had known Butch Cassidy, reported seeing Cassidy in Rawlins. Wm. Daley, vice president of the Rawlins National Bank, spoke to Cassidy on the street, and told Frank A. Hadsell. Judge David H. Craig told Hadsell, that he had been told Butch was in the country. Hadsell speculated that Judge Craig had been told that Cassidy was in town, by John P. Ryan. Frank Hadsell reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
    At the same time, several men in Baggs reported seeing Harry Longabaugh in Baggs. Charlie Ayres reported Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, (code for Cassidys partner in the Winnemucca bank robbery), had been at the home of Bert Charter, and reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
    Both sightings reportedly were investigated by local authorities, who concluded that it was Cassidy and Longabaugh.
    Also, Pinkertons Denver Office, June 8, 1908, Jas McPharland, Denver Criminal History #1597

    Whether it can be proven to the satisfaction of everyone, I doubt it.

  • Anonymous
    April 16, 2009 11:30 a.m.

    If the Buenos Aires Standard story, is bogus, doesnt that bring into question the accuracy of the other S/A documents?

  • Anonymous
    April 15, 2009 11:28 a.m.

    You might find Gooldy here also.

    "The David Gillespie Papers are housed at the Museum of North West Colorado in Craig Colorado and are available are available to the public."

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 14, 2009 2:54 p.m.


    Sheriff Hadsell had a long and distinquished career as sheriff, legislator, US Marshal, Prison Warden. He participated in an interview with Bob Lee and was a part of the posse after the Tipton Robbery and investigated the Wilcox Robbery. Hadsell's statements as to what Bob Lee told him should be regarded as reliable as to what Lee said. It doesn't mean that Lee was truthful. But the question again must be posed, What did Hadsell actually know as opposed to speculation. As to Ayers, Patterson suggests that Butch actually worked for Ayers but cites to secondary sources. You might re-read Gary Wilson's "Tiger of the Wild Bunch," and
    Patterson at p. 56 et seq. and Kelly's "The Outlaw Trail." Patterson relies extensively on Meadows.

    Your question, however, proves the point, Pinkerton files to a great extent constitute secondary sources. Thus, ultimately, unless we repeat old rumors and speculation we must find original documents. My original point, however, was more about whether I would accept Charlie Siringo as a "primary source." My answer, as obtuse as it was, was NO! He was a secondary source which requires conirmation from other sources.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 14, 2009 12:11 p.m.

    Excellent, excellent.

    I passed the A. Standard version on to Mike Bell to see what observations he may have. The 1912 BsAs Standard version, as you may have noticed, is somewhat different. Someone rewrote parts of it.

    Also, the man depicted as "Harry Lonbagh" is Ben Kilpatrick; it's a drawing from the newspaper coverage of Kilpatrick's 1901 arrest in St. Louis. Initially, he was identified as Harry Longbaugh/Longabaugh.

    In some stories, Longabaugh was described as an associate of "Buck Cassidy" -- no relation.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 14, 2009 11:55 a.m.

    Kid, Thanks, got the article. I don't know how I missed it since I have the other two. I'll see if the American Heritage Center will send me a copy.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 11:21 a.m.

    Let me ask you this. In sourcing the Pinkerton files, was Marshall Frank Hadsell & Charlie Ayers, considered a good source of information.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 10:57 a.m.

    January 15, 1897
    Charley Phllbrlck, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big hole where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockman, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their cattle on the Powder springs desert

    January 28, 1897
    After the Cattle Interests
    Charley Philbrick, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big Hole, where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockmen, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their rattle on the Powder Springs desert. Dixon correspondent of the Rawlins Republican.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 10:56 a.m.

    The Harry Alonzo article appeared in two different newspapers, that Im aware of. What you need to do, is contact The American Heritage Center University of Wyoming and get a copy of Early History Of The Snake River Valley by John F. Gooldy. You have to understand that when Gooldy wrote this, his brother-in-law, Dave Gillespie, was still alive. There were many in the valley who knew Gillespie gave the Pinkertons the Longabaugh photo, he never mentions Gillespie by name, but when you put it altogether, you know who hes talking about. Gooldy confirms what Gillespie says in his letter, plus the photograph and Cassidy and Longabaughs participation in the Winnemucca robbery.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 14, 2009 10:05 a.m.

    To Anon:

    In using Pinkerton files, one must consider the source of the information in the file. If the source is disclosed, one may then determine whether the Pinkerton information is reliable. Meadows in her book traces the sources of the Pinkerton information from Buenos Aires. The point is one may not blanketly accept the Pinkertons as Holy Gospel.

    Similarly, Charlie Siringo's versions have to be independently confirmed. Siringo in A Cowboy Detective indicates that Pinkerton Agent "Rank Curren" was told by "Jim Lowe," the proprietor of the Alma Saloon to get out of town. Lowe had left the area before Siringo hit town. In other words, Siringo had no personal knowledge of "Lowe's" presence in Alma or when. Siringo was told that "Lowe" was Cassidy by "Blake Graham," who was drunk, while the two shared drinks on the Silver City stage. Thus, we do not know from Siringo's account when Lowe left Alma. Incidently, the Pinkertons, according to Siringo, did not believe that Lowe was Cassidy. See Siringo pp 353 et seq.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 14, 2009 9:23 a.m.

    Kid: I still think this is a good piece of sleuthing. This along with your 11:09 p.m. April 11, 2009 post on Harry Alonzo is the type of researching that is needed. I am interested in finding a little more about that entry. Is it a Journal, newspaper, letter? I have seen David Gillespie's letter, but wasn't aware of more confirmation that Longabaugh was not involved in the Belle Fourche robbery.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 8:56 a.m.

    Actually, I found that article over a year ago, while researching Tap Duncan. Didnt know it was the same article as the Buenos Aires article, until a few days ago. Whoever wrote the article, no doubt, had some inside information. Harry Longabaugh certainly did not write the article. For instance, I do believe Longabaugh knew how to spell his name, and the date of the Winnemucca robbery. He would have known Flatnose George Currie was dead, and he would not have needed to pull a gun on Jim Duncan at Three Creeks, to get what he needed etc. He did however, know Carver was involved, something that was not well known in 1910, he just didnt know his name was William Carver. There was enough factual information in this article, that along with several other documents, articles, and confidential information, to convince me, that Cassidy, Lonabaugh and Carver pulled off the Winnemucca job.
    By the way, Tap Duncan is one of the few things that I must admit Daniel Buck got right, the other one, I may never tell.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 14, 2009 7:40 a.m.

    Kid: Great Find! This seems to be the same article that was re-printed two years later in the Buenos Aires Standard. Someone must have been peddling this story around to different newspapers as early as 1910. Maybe earlier?? This story may yet be found in several other newspapers around the same time.

    I wonder who the "friend" was? Apparently someone Longabaugh knew in SA.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 6:19 a.m.

    This narrative of the holdup of the "Winnemucca (Nevada) bank was prepared for the Standard by Harry Lonbaugh (Lonbauch he spells It), the notorious outlaw, while in the mountains of Bolivia, South America, where, at latest accounts, he still was pursuing the career of a bandit and political revolutionist. He gave the copy to a friend who, returning to the United States, has transmitted it to the Standard. The Winnemucca bank was held up in 1902. The robbers made off with $16,000 in gold. As will be observed, Lonbaugh writes terse, idiomatic English. He Is very
    sparing in his use of capitals, commas and periods, and some editing; has been necessary, to overcome these deficiencies. But scarcely a word has been changed.Editor of the Standard.

    The Winnemucca Holdup by One of Them."

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 13, 2009 6:29 p.m.

    Dan Buck writes:
    "BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901."

    What is your documentation that BC left New York with SK and EP on Feb 20, 1901?

  • jimlyn
    April 13, 2009 6:27 p.m.

    Interesting that the next entry down from Mrs E.Place on the ship's manifest mentions Valpariaso Chile as their home.

  • Anonymous
    April 13, 2009 6:26 p.m.

    HCC & GTB
    Its all rather confusing, youve repeatedly told us the Pinkertons, Newspapers, and Siringo cannot be considered reliable sources, yet, you never question Dan Buck when he sites them as a source.

  • Double Eagle
    April 13, 2009 5:14 p.m.

    I unfortunately did not consult Ernst, Patterson, or Meadows, before I speculated. Of course, no passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers. Therefore, its unduly speculative Ghosttown Bob claim Etta, Mrs. E. Place, arrived New York in July of 1905 on the ship Seguranca. TM, before I respond to any of your future posts, Ill clear it with Mr. Buck

  • TM
    April 13, 2009 3:53 p.m.

    Dan, Thanks for sharing the info and what has been uncovered so far.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 13, 2009 2:33 p.m.

    SK&EP were said to have visited the St. Louis World Exposition in 1904, but the sailing details are not known. On June 28, 1905, SK wrote a friend in Cholila that he and EP had arrived in Valpariaso, Chile, and intended to leave for San Francisco on June 30, but its not known if they did, and if so, when and on what ship one or both returned to SoAm.

    Sources: Ernst (2009), Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003).

    In Argentina, SK&EP were Harry and Ethel Place, and BC was James P. Ryan. SK&EP might have traveled as Mr. & Mrs. Matthews in 1905 or 1906. Unclear.

    Cant recall if any of the above ships sailed to/from BsAs via Europe. For what its worth, the possibility that BC&SK traveled on the Wordsworth and Hevelius as William Ryan and Frank Jones strikes me as unduly speculative. That said, the extent of our knowledge of the bandits activities in SoAm is limited.


  • Daniel Buck
    April 13, 2009 2:29 p.m.


    Heres a bare-bones itinerary, cobbled together chiefly from Pinkerton reports and newspaper shipping news columns. For example, a Pinkerton report might have sailing departure/arrive dates; from that a ship name can be determined, or a ship name and a general date, from that a specific date cane be determined. No passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers.

    BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901.

    Theres no credible information that BC ever came back to the US during his time in Argentina (or later, for that matter).

    SK&EP returned to NY from BsAs March 3, 1902, on the Soldier Prince, arriving in NY April 3, 1902, and departing NY for BsAs again on July 10, 1902, on the Honorius, arriving in BsAs August 9, 1902.


  • TM
    April 13, 2009 12:26 p.m.

    Dan and Double Eagle...Thank you both for a quick reply. Still...do we know if either ships (Wordsworth and the Hevlious)went straight to SA or did they go to Europe first? Do we know the date of when both ships departed NY during this period with certainity? Was there a reference to a Mrs. Brown on either ship by chance also?

  • Double Eagle
    April 13, 2009 11:28 a.m.

    As Mr. Buck points out, Butch Cassidy frequently used the alias Ryan in S/A, more than likely, because of his close relationship to John P. Ryan and his knowledge of the Ryan family. John P. Ryans brother, William Ryan, died in 1898. One could reasonably assume that Butch also used William Ryan as an alias. You could therefore reasonaby assume that the Wm. Ryan and Frank Jones listed in the passenger manifest, of the Wordsworth, could be Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh. Although, Wm. Ryan was booked on the Wordsworth, he did not embark. One month later, the same William Ryan sailed on the Hevlious.

    Name: Wm Ryan Arrival Date: 7 Jul 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Rio De Janeiro Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Wordsworth

    Name: William Ryan Arrival Date: 2 Aug 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Buenos Aires Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Hevelius

  • Daniel Buck
    April 13, 2009 9:42 a.m.


    Kribs is discussed in BUSCADOS EN LA PATAGONIA, Marcelo Gavirati (2007), and in "New Wild Bunch Documents Surface," Daniel Buck and Anne Meadows, TRUE WEST, August 1997.

    His name appears on some dated and undated land filings in Argentina, one being a 1903 petition regarding a proposed North American colony in Chubut.
    On an undated filing, his signature appears alongside those of several other colonists, including J. P. Ryan (Butch) and H.A. Place (Sundance

    If you want copies, let us know.

    TM, the answer to your question will require a bit of research. More soon.


  • TM
    April 13, 2009 7:00 a.m.

    I have read many reports of Longabaugh, Parker and Place leaving NY by shipline to South America in or around 1901 or 1902. Three questions: Did they go to Argentina via Europe? If they did, do we know how long they were in europe and where and for how long? Fiinally, does anyone have a record of the passage ( Ships records, dates )and what names they used while traveling via this ship?

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 12, 2009 2:08 p.m.

    Why do you and Buck engage in trying to destroy the credibility of others believing it will strengthen Bucks position? All this does is damage the credibility of you and Buck. Buck has done this for many years, and to many people, thereby ruining his own credibility, especially with those that believe B&S returned. Take the high road and produce the following documents that will strengthen Bucks position.
    #1 The Longabaugh family records that show S&E visited the Longabaugh Family in Pennsylvania in Jan 1901.
    #2 The Tiffany letter showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901.
    #3 The receipt for the purchase of horses by B&S in Argentina in 1901.
    #4 The Tito Juarez document showing B&S were in Argentina July 3, 1901.
    #5 The Cattle brand document showing B&S registered for cattle brands in 1901.
    This 1901 disagreement can be settled with Buck producing these documents

  • Randall
    April 12, 2009 1:58 p.m.

    Butch...This Is The Longest Wait We Ever Had For Oakley Polar King Fry Sauce.
    Patience Sundance Patience.

  • SAL
    April 12, 2009 1:35 p.m.

    I am sorta interested in the Sundance Kid. When I was looking for information on my great grandfather on the internet I came across an offical paper from Argentina. My great grandfather Hiram S. Kribs and a partner bought a cattle ranch and lived in Patagonia shortly after the turn of the 20th century. I heard stories that Sundance and Butch had the ranch adjoining them. My grandfather was just a boy and he used to talk about them. My grandfather had an older sister Ella. I think she would have been too young for Sundance. All I know of her husband was his last name was Brown. They lived in a small hamlet in the backwoods of Oregon where men running from the law would come to. All I know of this Brown was he was of ill repute. My folks never talked about him. I'm sort of interested in the DNA results as Sundance sometimes used Brown as an alias.

  • Kid
    April 11, 2009 11:09 p.m.

    Year: 1897 Month: 10-October Day: 30
    Harry Alonzo, who formerly worked for Reader & Co's cattle outfit at Snake river, and who joined the Powder Springs gang of thieves some time last winter, was arrested about a month ago in South Dakota, on the charge of robbing the Belle Fourche bank. Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs, went to Pierre, S. D, but the officers who had charge of Alonzo, refused to allow him to be seen, claiming that he had been identified as one of the bank robbers, and that the reward of $1,800 had been paid for his arrest. As a matter of fact, Alonzo was on Snake river at the date of the bank robbery, working for Reader & Co.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 11, 2009 9:09 p.m.

    Jerry does not seem to get my sarcasm. Ghosttown Bob's comments about Charlie Siringo are appropriate. Much of what Siringo wrote was, indeed, merely a regurgitation of what others stated. Names, dates, and incidents are patently changed. It would be like using Milt Hinkle as a "primary source." According to Hinkle, Butch and Sundance were alive and well in Argentina in 1909 and 1913 and Harvey Logan died in 1941 in Bahia Blanca. Possible, but then anything is "possible" but not likely.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 11, 2009 4:05 p.m.

    No, Siringo cannot be considered a reliable source. Most of what he relates about Alma seems to have come from Blake Graham, whom Siringo claims to have shared a stagecoach with for a time. He heard only rumors (Graham and an old cowboy) that Lowe was still around the area in 1901, but he then did not follow up on them and confirm whether they were true or not. He then blamed Murray for sending him north rather than staying around Alma longer.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 11, 2009 3:55 p.m.

    Gianni also says of the near hanging of the Pinkerton opperative that Siringo claims Jim Lowe through the goodness of his heart prevented: "It originated in the brain of some one far from the scene where it was supposed to have occurred. This story is laughed at in the Frisco Valley."

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 11, 2009 3:50 p.m.

    Jerry Wrote: "The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His memoirs clearly show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City, as Dan Buck has written on his page 37."

    1. The book Digging Up Butch and Sundance was written by Anne Meadows. I don't think Dan Buck has ever said he was a ghost writer for the book.
    2. Siringo's account conflicts with William French's account and memoirs. French never claimed that Jim Lowe (Butch) owned, ran, or bartended a Saloon in Alma. He never mentioned the alleged saloon and near hanging of Murray after the Wilcox robbery. Only that when shown a picture of Cassidy, he identified him, and that Jim Lowe left the area shortly after.
    3. Charles A. Gianni May 1933 True West mag. claims Cassidy never ran a saloon in Alma and uses M. E. Coates, Bob Lewis, and Calrence E. Tipton as sources.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 11, 2009 1:16 a.m.

    Here is a perfect example of you and Dan Buck do.

    Ghost Town Bob writes:
    It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.

    The primary source for the River Platt Bank account is the Dimio report, which you use to find this information. You just wrote Butch and Sundance opened an account in the River Platt Bank. Read that report again. Butch was not there when Sundance opened the account and you said he was.
    This is what Buck has done with the other reports as well.
    If you or Buck are going to quote the Pinkerton files quote them accurately.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:46 p.m.

    Are we to take Bucks word that a receipt exists showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901? I will produce the documents I refer to, why cant Buck?

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:37 p.m.

    Buck does the same thing with the memo that mentions S&E leaving New York City for Buenos Aires on Feb 20, 1901. He states BS&E were in New York City on Feb 1, 1901 where the three of them checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding house. That memo does not say that. Butch could not have been there because he was in New Mexico. The memo says BS&E checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding house but that would have been Feb 1902. Using this memo Buck also says the three of them left New York for Buenos Aires Feb 20, 1901. The memo does not say that either. If Buck is going to quote a certain Pinkerton memo, is it too much to ask he quote it as written?

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:36 p.m.

    Buck also states S&E visited the hospital in Buffalo New York probably Jan or Feb 1901. As his source he uses the Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902. This Pinkerton memo does not say they visited the hospital in Jan or Feb 1901. A person would not know that if he depended on Dan Buck. Using all of the sources a person can determine that visit happened in May 1901 as the Pinkerton memo indicates. (Summer 1901). This shows Sundance was not in Argentina when Buck says he was. If Buck is going to use a certain Pinkerton memo as a source he should quote that memo accurately.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:34 p.m.

    The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His memoirs clearly show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City, as Dan Buck has written on his page 37.
    Why did Buck only mention Siringo once and this one time he misstated what is written. On page 34 Buck states Siringo discovered the Wilcox burnt loot was passed in Colorado, Montana and New Mexico. Siringo never discovered any of the burnt loot was passed in Colorado. Siringo discovered the loot was passed in Utah, Montanna, New Mexico.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 10, 2009 9:44 a.m.

    HCC: Dan's not a Mormon either, it must be an "anti-non Mormon," us versus them thing.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 10, 2009 8:16 a.m.

    In answer to the question of why the long wait. I hate to be cynical but it would appear that the newspaper articles, tv spots, etc. are a run-up to the release of a book or TV "documentary" in which all will be revealed, similar to the run-up to the release of the movie Hildago and the stories of Frank T. Hopkins, or the run-up to Berns' "alleged" discovery of Machu Picchu. To sum up:
    We have learned:
    It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.
    There is still virulent "anti-Mormonism" in the world. (I am not Mormon)
    Dan has horns, tail, and cloven hooves.

  • Anonymous
    April 9, 2009 8:00 a.m.

    Where did the Dan Buck groupie go?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 7, 2009 1:12 p.m.

    HCC: This leads us back to Sheri's question "why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?" If the family is going the Mt route and have Bill Longs Mt it should be simple enough to get the results. They should all be on one the FT-DNA database. Any submission to the FT-DNA database should come back with relatives/matches.

    If they are trying for Y-Chromosome matches and got Y-Chromosome DNA from Bill then there is already a Longabaugh sample in the FT-DNA database and it should match if they are related even if it isn't Harvey's DNA.

    So why the long wait?????

  • Ghossttown Bob
    April 7, 2009 11:39 a.m.

    From the Deseret News Dec 16, 2008: "Long's skull and a femur were dug up several years ago by another relative, according to family members involved in the most recent exhumation. The individual had a rectangular piece of bone cut from the femur, apparently to conduct DNA tests. The results of those tests are unknown.

    In November 2007, Long's remains including the skull and femur were reburied in the original grave site. The bones were placed in a vault."

    Then again on Dec 14th 2008, Dr. McCullough of the U of U directed a further exhumation. Each time bones were removed for DNA sampling. From the 2007 dig, a Y-Chromosome test was done and found inconclusive (negative). The official family stance was that there was not enough DNA for a proper test (Bambi Nickle Reed). So they have since been trying to track down Harry Longabaugh mother's female relatives for a mitochondrial DNA test. That proved futile, so they dug him up again in December for more Y or Mt-DNA. Now as the article states, they are back to the mitochondrial DNA route.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 7, 2009 11:35 a.m.

    HCC: The alleged disinterments and DNA testing have been pretty well outlined in the two Deseret News Articles and the KSL news article and broadcast of March 24th, along with the hole in the skull. To reiterate, here is a summary:

  • Horse creek cowboy
    April 7, 2009 10:41 a.m.


    Are you thinking of Pat Johnson who killed Willie Stang?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 7, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    Ghost Town Bob,

    Kindly tell us about the two alleged prior disinterments of poor old Bill Long, the alleged previous DNA tests, and the alleged bullet hole in his skull.

    From Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary. Ambrose disappeared into Latin America in 1914 and is possibly still alive living with Etta Place in the Sierra Madres:

    A broad-gauge gossip.
    HISTORY, n.
    An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.

    Of Roman history, great Niebuhr's shown
    'Tis nine-tenths lying. Faith, I wish 'twere known,
    Ere we accept great Niebuhr as a guide,
    Wherein he blundered and how much he lied.
    Salder Bupp

  • Kid
    April 7, 2009 7:51 a.m.

    May 26, 1908.
    You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River

    Who was alias Johnson?

  • Daniel Buck
    April 7, 2009 4:26 a.m.

    HCC & TM,

    Almost 20 years ago, soon after we stumbled upon Hiram Bingham's account, we wrote it up in a several-thousand word article, "The Aramayo Mule," South American Explorer, February 1988, with a follow-up emendation, "Mule Never Know," in the May 1988 issue. The incident is also discussed in Meadows (2003), pp. 130-32.

    In 1988, when our research was still in the early stages -- we had not yet compiled much evidence that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente -- we speculated that the two men Bingham met might have been any number of people, including Butch or Sundance. Later we concluded that the Butch and Sundance angle was not likely.

    Also, TM, we did search subsequent issues of El Chorolque for any mention of Santiago Lowe's name, without success. See Meadows (2003), p. 364.


  • Anonymous
    April 6, 2009 1:19 p.m.

    "So even if Berns visited the site in 1887 -- and there's no evidence that he did -- he's at the tail end of a long line that stretches back to the 1500s.

    Dan Buck

    Posted by: Daniel Buck | July 25, 2008 at 07:53 AM"

    For those of you that are interested in the ruins of MACHU PICCHU: we are again blessed by the expert at pointing out the incorrectness of others. Is there no end?

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 10:24 a.m.

    Mr. Buck, what is your take on this report by Dr. Bingham? Again..not a challenge. I simply would like to know how you interrupted this report by someone that has to be consider a highly reliable source. Did you consider the encounter Dr. Bingham had on November 15th as a possible encounter with Cassidy?
    Your resonse would be appreciated. Thanks. TM

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 10:15 a.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy, Thank you for the confirmation. After reading your post I googled "Dr. Hiram Bingham. Argentina" and found his "Across South America". I was able to read a great deal and found his Chapter VII encounter with two Americans on Nov. 15, 1908 very interesting. The "tone" and details of their conversation gave me the impression that he indeed was speaking with Cassidy. Your reference to the later story he was told about two bandits killed and the promise to avenge by a "score or more" of other bandits sounds like they may have been part of a smaller Wild Bunch if you will. This to me caused me to wonder if Cassidy was not in charge of a group of bandits hitting various mine payrolls in Bolivia. Since Sundance is not identified..it could be that this smaller wild bunch was like the old and that various groups would take on independent robberies. Until Sundance's bones are found in Bolivia or the US we won't know for sure where he died. But I do like this report as to the possibility that Cassidy was not one of the bandits killed earlier that month.

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 9:58 a.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy. Thank you for the comfirmation. I googled: "Dr. Hiram Bingham, Argentina" and was able to read a great deal of his "Across South America". I did also read Chapter VII and his encounter with two American Highwaymen. From this account dated November 15, 1908. It does come across as a possible conversation with Cassidy in tone and by what he Bingham says he was told in this encounter. Taking this into acount with the later discription of the highwaymen later reported killed..they being part of several American bandits.."a score or more" in the area. That actually to me sounds like a smaller working Wild Bunch led by a planner and lead bandit such as Cassidy. Granted the presence of Sundance is not at all known for sure from either of these reports...unless Sundance was pulling his own jobs and possibly envolved in the shootout that was discribed. Again without clear identifications and variations of the story it is very hard to know the truth. But Bingham's first encounter to me sounds like he could have spoken to Cassidy.

  • Anonymous
    April 6, 2009 9:44 a.m.

    Jerry Nickle, and Paolo Greer have a great deal in common, Mr. Daniel Buck.
    Nickle, Sundance and Greer, Hiram Bingham's Machu Picchu.
    Take a peek at the Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones blog.

  • Anonymous
    April 6, 2009 9:09 a.m.

    Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones

    Machu Picchu
    Not that it really matters, but there is no evidence that A.R. Berns, the subject of a spate of hyper-ventilating media stores in June last, ever visited Machu Picchu in the 1880s. Dan Buck.

    Dan Buck "quite clearly" heard me say something that I did not say, it is no wonder that he thinks my historical evidence is "ludicrous". Paolo Greer.

    What Greer has "put together" is the notion that when Berns named his company Huacas del Inca he must have meant Machu Picchu, But that is speculation, not evidence. Dan Buck.

    Best Hobby of a Local Politician's Aide:
    Chasing Butch Cassidy, Dan Buck, of Pat Schroeder's office.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 6, 2009 9:07 a.m.


    Source for visit to Dr. Bingham:
    Bingham, Hiram: Across South America, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston and New York, 1911, Chapter VII, pp 81 and 82. Dr. Bingham was rather precise on his date and time.

    In Chapter VIII at pp 91 and 92 he describes the death of two bandits two weeks before his arrival in Tupiza who had robbed a payroll. The description reminds one to some extent of the description in Elks Magazine. The conclusion that one must draw is that Dr. Bingham was either forgetful as to dates or that there were four bandits wandering about the area of Tupiza robbing payrolls.

    The newspaper accounts were taken from the papers themselves.

    I have not listed all of the accounts that I have found as to Ben Kilpatrick in St. Louis. The point is that Ben was positively identified by at least three witnesses as Sundance, two from the train at Wagner and the other the County prosecuting attorney from Sundance. And that constitutes the main problem. People make mistakes on identification. And that was Mr. Pinkerton's problem also, witness the dispute as to the identification of the body at Parachute. Still looking for Harvey.

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 8:00 a.m.

    Horese Creek Cowboy. Enjoyed your latest posting and I am amazed at the info you provided. I would like to know the sources; the last one is the very interesting. Can you name the source for the visit to Dr. Bingham?

    Mr. Buck my question for you is this. You state that that Santiago Lowe was registered approx. 10 days before their last robbery. By chance did you search for Mr. Lowe after November 6 or 7th staying at any other hotels in the area? This is not a challenge, just asking if you looked for Mr. Lowe after the date you believe they died.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 6, 2009 3:58 a.m.


    Indeed. The number of separate stories of their deaths between 1890s and the 1970s on three continents now exceeds 70.

    Consider only the stories of their sightings and deaths posted the past several months on the DesertNews.com and KSL.com comment boards. The storytellers even confuse Butch with Sundance and vice versa. They have them dead in Utah, Nevada, and Washington. Butch is buried in Johnnie, Nevada; no, he's buried in Washington; no, he's buried near Circleville; no, he's buried in Circleville. His sister told me; the family told me; his neighbors told me. They escaped from the shootout in Bolivia; they never went to South America at all.

    Butch died in 1937; no, Butch attended Matt Warner's funeral in 1938 and got a warning ticket in 1941; Sundance died in 1937; no, Sundance died in 1955. All these stories are true, in a manner of speaking, that is, they are believed to be true.


  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 5, 2009 5:25 p.m.

    More comments:
    Someone asked about later sightings:
    New York Times, 11-14-01 Harry Longbaugh arrested in St. Louis.
    Salt Lake Herald-Republican, April 19, 1910, Butch robs S.P. Train.
    Salt Lake Herald, June 27, 1905, Butch in Thistle Mountains.
    Salt Lake Herald, August 14, 1907, Eugene Schmitz and Harry Orchard with Butch southeast of Bluff City.
    New York Tribune, July 6, 1902, Butch and Harry Longbaugh rob Rock Island Railraod at Dupont.See also similar account Deseret Evening News, July 7, 1902.
    Eastern Utah Advocate May 30, 1912. Whitney Brothers joining Harvey Logan, Butch Cassidy and Jim McCoud in South America.
    San Francisco Call, Dec. 16, 1901. Man going by name of "Drees" arrested as Longbaugh.
    Ogden Standard, Feb. 21, 1910. Butch, Harry Longbaugh, and Harvey Logan terrorizing Argentina.
    New York Tribune, Butch Harry Longbaugh, Etta Place in Chile. Have been joined by Marvy Logan.
    The most intriguing report, however, is one which suggests that two unidentified "Anglo-Saxon" bandits met with Dr. Hiram Bingham at La Quiaca, Argentina, at 9:00 p.m., November 15, 1908. La Quiaca is on the road from Topiza.
    And the list can go on and on.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 5, 2009 4:06 p.m.

    It is still below freezing, probably like the chill felt by Dan when he visits this blog. Tomorrow it is supposed to get up into the forties and will turn the corral into mud similar to that tossed about with so much glee on this site.
    Some comments:
    Family legends when told by our own ancestors are the gospel truth. When told by someone else's ancestors, such as Frank J. Dunleavy' report that Butch and Sundance were killed when Dunleavy was in Bolivia, or the reports from residents of Cholila, they have no credibility at all. In my own family, there is a legend about the origin of my great-grandfather's gold watch and chain. My brother put it in his account of our family history. My mother made me promise not to tell my brother that it was fiction. After my mother's death, my brother revealed he knew it all along. Family legnds make for great reading.
    The idea that Sundance participated in the Wagner robbery probably results from the confusion in newspaper accounts of the arrest in St. Louis in November 1901 of an indiidual at first believed to be Sundance but was Ben Kilpatrick.