Prop. 8 protest draws thousands in Salt Lake City

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  • Really?
    Feb. 8, 2010 10:14 a.m.

    People should be given the right to vote for what they believe. If I do not feel that extra tax dollars going to build a monument would be beneficial for society, I should have the right to vote no.

    Also, one more note... If gays and lesbians are now allowed to marry, what about those polygamists who would be thrown in jail if they legally married multiple wives. I don't see the situation much further off. If we allow gays to marry, who has the right to tell polygamists they cannot marry?

    Marriage in our society is between a man and a woman. Not between a man and a man, a woman and a woman, or a man and ten women.

  • WOW!
    Jan. 7, 2009 5:33 p.m.

    Major hate on this blog! For all of you who believe gay people are the Anti-Christ and will destroy the world - do something REALLY Christian and get to know just one gay person before making up your minds.

    Seriously - ignorance and fear will get you nowhere!

  • Colored and LDS
    Nov. 20, 2008 3:41 p.m.

    Colored people like me are for Prop 8!! So what? Are u going to manifest in Watts, Compton?? Go ahead,chances are you will get blown off!!! The Church is true and its led by a prophet and thats it!! California has spoken and thats it!!! Tolerance?? Now we can see the real color of some!!Not all of them thankfully!You already have right so be grateful and maybe a little bit less ignorant please about the LDS church..In case you do plan to use violence just remember that mormons do know how to fight,i would if someone messes up with my family or friends just because of our religion! Be Aware!! Mormons are not going to be intimidated!
    This Church will Stand,make no mistake and for me its worth dying for!

  • AlexD
    Nov. 20, 2008 9:17 a.m.

    To Trish: I find your statement that what the LDS teaches "will scare the heck out of you" to be true.
    Who wants heck to be inside you anyways? Is that evil?..LOL. The church explains that people who have never heard of Christ will get a chance to hear it in the Spirit World. That is the most positive message you can ever know. Others belief that those people are doomed, but the LDS church shows a positive and uplifting message that they will hear the gospel. That certainly "scares the heck of me" LOL.

  • AlexD
    Nov. 20, 2008 9:11 a.m.

    To Trish: African Americans were always allowed to be members of the LDS church. One of the reasons they were chased out of Missouri was because the church newspaper condemned slavery. The LDS church members never had African slaves, but I doubt most churches in the United States can not say that.
    Elder Ballard was interviewed once and asked why he believes Blacks did not hold the priesthood until 1978. He said, and I paraphrase, that it was because the church needed reach a certain stage of maturity. Today the LDS church is one of the fastest growing religions in Africa.

  • AlexD
    Nov. 20, 2008 8:53 a.m.

    To anonymous: Polygomy was done in order to increase the membership in church. It had practical purpose. The problem with it is that it is hard to get rid of. That is way it was necessary for the Lord to use outside forces. Polygamy was always considered wrong by God. Read it. It's right in the Book of Mormon. Read Jacob chapter 2 verses 27 thru 33. That scripture has always been there and it clearly states that Polygamy is done only to raise "seed" unto Lord.

  • AlexD
    Nov. 20, 2008 8:43 a.m.

    Roger: It does't matter who appointed the judges.
    The bottom line is that they created law by redefining what marriage was originally designed to be. The right for women and blacks to vote was decided by legislature and not by judges. That is why thoses issues are not controversial. Like I said before, a Gay man can marry a woman and Lesbian can marry a man. They have the same rights that I do. Redefining marriage through corrupt activist judges is not the way to make change.

  • AlexD
    Nov. 20, 2008 8:37 a.m.

    Roger: I read your post. Many people are mistaken that you are going to see immediate repercussions on this social experiment. Take a look at what has happen to our public schools when values were removed from it by judges. It use to be that we worried about chewing gum but now we are worried about shooting guns.

  • Trish
    Nov. 19, 2008 3:35 p.m.

    While I live in Utah and don't care for the LDS church or their way of doing things, Marriage is between a man and a woman. This does not mean that life partners should not be able to choose who they want to leave their things to should they pass on, or that they should not be able to visit their partner in the hospital. But marriage, no that is for a husband and a wife. If people really want to be upset with what the LDS church does then read of the what they believe, find out why African Americans where excluded from so many things in their church. The truth behind what they teach will scare the heck out of you and you will see why they are so nuts.

  • anonymous
    Nov. 18, 2008 7:00 p.m.

    when the united states government took utah from the polygomist utahians that was democracy at work?-"democracy" had an impact on utah in the 19th century and now a similar "democracy" has no impacted california in the 21st century. you would all be in plural marriages right now if it weren't for "democracy." you can believe that the church doctorine changed through divine intervention, but I'm pretty sure it was at the barrell of a gun. look at yourselves before casting stones. polygamy was a choice, not a divine right...homosexuality is inborn, it is not a choice.

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:44 a.m.

    I believe those judges were appointed by Republican governors. You can't vote away rights. We life in a republic, not a pure democracy.

    Alex: Read my post. The train has left the station. You just don't know it yet. Gay marriage is coming, and it will be good for America (I'm straight, married 40 years by the way).

  • AlexD
    Nov. 18, 2008 8:54 a.m.

    What is wrong about the whole thing in this case is that four activist judges abused their judicial power and decided to create law. The three descending judges wrote a scathing letter against.
    Proposition 8 was about democracy and the peoples will. The four judges should be impeached for abuse of power. Marriage is between a man and a woman. If Gay man wants to marry women, he has that right. If a Lesbian wants to marry a man, she has that right.

  • AlexD
    Nov. 18, 2008 8:48 a.m.

    Gays have the same rights as heterosexuals when it comes to marriage. A Gay man can marry a women if he choses. The definition of marriage is between a man and a human. It should not be based on your changeable desires. if you want to change. You can learn to like or dislike anything. The biggest lie told is that you can not change what you like. I say the truth does make you free. Knowing that you can change what you like is the most positive message you can know.

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 17, 2008 4:19 p.m.

    Lets agree meet on the steps of the Utah State Capitol at 1:00 PM on July 1, 2020. By then, this issue will be resolved, and I will accept your admission that gay marriage was no big deal.

    If I'm lucky, I'll be 74, and I hope you live a long and happy life like me.

    The arguments of the opponents of gay marriage are easily turned into the stuff of satire with a simple question. Will the marriage of Jim and Bob of Arbuckle City, California, really lead to the destruction of the United States of America? Answer: Of course, not.

    The following countries have legalized same-sex marriage, and straight marriages have continued or increased and divorce rates have not changed: Netherlands (2001), Belgium (2003), South Africa (2005), Spain (2005), Canada (2005), and Norway (2008).

    Its fine to oppose gay marriage, but dont make a law against it. Dont restrict a persons free agency.

    The percentage of people who favor gay marriage will continue to rise until gay marriage becomes the subject of a well-deserved yawn. The young straight people will be the yawners as the old fogies of my generations leave the stage.

  • navajoe_nm
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:20 a.m.

    Religion is the root of all evil. It creates division between people all over the world and yet time over time again people dont see it. Why cant we live and let live. The world would be a better place if we did do that. Mormons fighting over one simple word "marriage". I think its stupid and a total waste of time trying to defend its definition. Gays on the other hand are fighting for the right to be treated equally as any other american citizen. See the difference now mormon brothers and sisters? There are gays born everyday and the day will come when we shall rise to overcome your bigotry.

  • berry
    Nov. 15, 2008 12:49 a.m.

    Right on... how else could you gays be born to this life if God's commandment that man and man be married, or woman and a woman be married? Maybe you should change prop. 8 from marriage to partnership or something. Why don't you just live together and leave marriage alone for a man and a woman! Please go home...

  • Supporter for Prop 8
    Nov. 14, 2008 9:55 p.m.

    I support Prop 8 because the marriage between a man and a woman has been around for thousands of years. I don't have a problem with gay couples being together. I don't support the idea of gay marriage. Also, the LDS church did what the constitutional rights give them, the right to give the members what views to take and decide themselves. The church does not force members to do anything. The gay community needs to realize that other churches were involved in this too. The gay community and those who oppose Prop 8 are being disrespectful to the right of free religion.

  • Anon
    Nov. 14, 2008 11:47 a.m.

    The church chose this gay marriage issue because Lesbians and Gays are a very small minority and thus easy to pick on. Lesbians and gays just want to be let alone. They are all too well aware of how many people regard them.
    Mormons are a very small minority who constantly try to recruit new members and yet number only 12,000,000. Those within the bubble have no idea how unpopular Mormons are with many citizens.
    They will now find out.

  • Opinionated
    Nov. 14, 2008 10:03 a.m.

    Change is inevitable. Change is coming. Deal with it.

  • To Roger Carrier
    Nov. 13, 2008 11:56 a.m.

    I protest and boycott your opinion. (It doesn't matter whether or not it makes a good point -- if it's different than what I think, then I will protest and boycott you!)

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 13, 2008 8:35 a.m.

    Watch the Keith Olberman video on gay marriage (Countdown with Keith Olberman). He makes a good point in my opinion.

  • RAproducer
    Nov. 13, 2008 1:16 a.m.

    Mormon and Catholic churches now MUST marry ANY heterosexual couple or be sued because of their arguments for prop. 8.

    I created a youtube video on the subject... please search for fightbackon8 on youtube.

    Their lies can be legally used against them.

  • butlerson
    Nov. 13, 2008 1:00 a.m.

    The Mormon church and the Catholic church et. al. unite to persecute another minority then have the nerve to complain that the persecuted demonstrate to protest the churches' backing of the stripping of another minorities' rights? What do they expect? When they attack someone they should expect to be attacked back, and rightly so. And none of these so called "Christian" churches has any record of acting in any way like Jesus himself taught. He never condemned homosexuals, but he sure condemned the rich and when is the last time you heard any of these "Christian" churches condemn the rich and call for them to be excluded and denied equal rights under the US constitution and bill of rights in our supposed secular state? Never, they wouldn't want to lose all that money. Hypocrites all!

    The Mormon church has a short memory. They forget a very similar thing was done to them in the 1800s in Idaho when the Republican party (as usual) passed a constitutional amendment to remove Mormons' citizenship because they were disgusted by Mormon beliefs (doesn't this sound familiar now?). Those rights were not restored officialy until the 1980s.

    Religion is what separates us from God.

  • Eric Larsen
    Nov. 12, 2008 11:48 p.m.

    I doubt anyone will read my comment, but I have to say that I don't agree with homosexuality. I believe it is against the Plan of Salvation, and is therefore wrong. I choose to use my understanding of gospel principles to guide other aspects of my life. To segregate the two would be to live two lives (I believe most people refer to that as being a "Sunday Mormon").

    I have read numerous reports and law briefings on the subject of Proposition 8, but my fundamental support of Proposition 8 stems from my understanding of the entire Plan of Salvation. I'm sure there are statistics of all sorts to be quoted on both sides of the argument. When people understand what the Plan of Salvation is and how each one of us fits into that plan, I think it puts this whole issue in perspective.

    I hope there can be mutual understanding on the matter. This will be a subject most bishops in the Church will need to address, and therefore must understand. On the other hand, there needs to be understanding from the LGBT following of why Mormons believe what they believe.

  • a new lather to get into
    Nov. 12, 2008 10:15 p.m.

    Is it just me or is it rather disturbing that gas prices have fallen 50% in the past couple weeks?

    Smells of cheese being dangled in front of a trap.


  • Tired of uneducated protestors
    Nov. 12, 2008 9:35 p.m.

    Actually, more money was contributed to the "No on Prop 8" side than the "Yes". It's interesting to note this, especially since the protestors keep trying to use it as their excuse to target the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Please educate yourselves first about such an issue, then you can protest all you want, with correct information.

  • Educate Yourselves
    Nov. 12, 2008 9:06 p.m.

    I suggest you all go to the SF Chronicle website (sfgate dot com). They have posted the database with all the names of individuals who donate money for and against Propositon 8, both in and out of the state of California. Then you can decide whom you want to boycott or support. This is NOT a witch hunt as some of you would suggest, but a matter of public record. Remember that next time you donate to such a political cause.

  • Mea Culpa
    Nov. 12, 2008 8:51 p.m.

    I have posted several messages on these boards, both "pro" and "con." Try to figure out which are which! You are all so very very gullible!

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 12, 2008 8:39 p.m.

    To the 5:22 commentator,
    Do you follow God or Mammon? Do you sustain Thomas S. Monson as the prophet?
    Are you ok with our enemies having showed LDS missionaries as house ransackers? With the initmidation of people on the way to the temple? With vandalism of chapels and the walls around temple lots? With people being forced out of their jobs because they headed the counsel of the prophet.
    I call on all church members to boycott the California Music Theatre. Any organization that would foce someone out for following the teachings of their religion has no support from me.

  • juls
    Nov. 12, 2008 8:33 p.m.

    I think that the reason why all the gays people in california are sore they don't have the right to do what natural. They are just genderly confused, that's all, they can't chose, but they can change, isn't that what all the crazies that voted for Obama want anyways? But I also don't think that it right for them to protest in front of our beautiful temples because we're doing what's right for our souls. Marriage is and always will be a sacred belssing for a man and a woman to partake in, to share their lives together and to bring beautiful children into this world together, and as we all know, you have to have two different parts to let that happen. It's just not natural for a little child to have two moms or dads, the natural thing is to have one mom and one dad and I strongly think that we should keep it that way.

  • Re: Benedicta
    Nov. 12, 2008 7:32 p.m.

    The 52-48% ratio is surely not congruent to the voting demographic of an urbane and cultured theater-attending community, as illustrated by this resignation.

  • Re: Benedict Arnold
    Nov. 12, 2008 7:18 p.m.

    A theater, of all places, with an invariably active gay and gay-friendly audience probably couldn't afford to keep him on staff. This company shouldn't have to suffer because of one staffer's indoctrinations against a participating minority. Presumably his name was on the financial contributor list, because there is no reason anyone should have had to disclose their vote to their workplace.

    Another matter I am confused about is that while I oppose Prop 8 ad infinitum, I fail to see how sacrificing your position because your morals would be considered cowardly, or anything but gracious in your religious community. Your reaction seems especially paradoxical.

  • Master Sower
    Nov. 12, 2008 6:09 p.m.

    You mean he was forced to resign.

    I find it disgraceful that a man can vote his conscience -- and not even that, but for an amendment that PASSED -- and then be treated like this.

    I agree with Benedict. This theater is cowardly.

    Boycotting season is open.

    Nov. 12, 2008 5:54 p.m.

    Mr. Eckern was not fired. HE RESIGNED.

    I found his apology and self justification to be very typical of your Mormon double-speak.

  • Benedict Arnold
    Nov. 12, 2008 5:37 p.m.

    No, it was cowardice pure and simple. Do businesses really want patrons to make every decision based on what side somebody voted on in an election?

    What was the percentage on this vote -- 52-48? Do businesses that supported No on 8 want to lose out on 52 percent of their customers? The Yes on 8 supporters are probably too mature to react in that way. But I suppose what's good for two ganders is good for a goose and a gander.

    The fact that this theater forced an employee who had served them well for 25 years to resign because of his religious convictions is complete and utter cowardice. Talk about a religious discrimination lawsuit in the making.

  • who cares
    Nov. 12, 2008 5:28 p.m.

    There are plenty of good moral people who will boycott the theatre in Sacramento. I know alot of people who are boycotting McDonalds, levi strauss, google and Spielberg movies. It goes both ways. Go ahead and boycott Utah. I'm sure the conference visitors will more than make up for the sundance festival and skiing. you don't need their filthy lucre.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2008 5:24 p.m.

    Not when they tie up traffic and freeway off ramps have to be closed for three and a half hours.

  • to: Lambert & others
    Nov. 12, 2008 5:22 p.m.

    I am LDS and voted against prop 8. I view it as a secular matter, not religious. Because of those views most LDS posters on this site have called me an apostate, the BYU newspaper ridiculed people like me as "so-called active". Where is my "sacrosanct" (Scott Trotter's, church spokesman, word) right to vote as I please? Aren't my personal "circumstances and experiences" (church's words) valid reasons for voting against prop 8?

    I see no difference in the rational for this poor treatment and the treatment Eckern received.

  • Re: Benedict
    Nov. 12, 2008 5:09 p.m.

    It was a business decision. The theater company wants to sell tickets. Any supporter of prop 8 will deflect interest, and any removal of said suppoter will result in more ticket sales. Expect to see a lot of this: the name, hometowns and workplaces of each financial contributor of prop 8 have been well-circulated.

  • Benedict Arnold
    Nov. 12, 2008 4:39 p.m.

    I would like to congratulate the California Musical Theatre for cowardice on a level I couldn't even hope to attain.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 12, 2008 4:31 p.m.

    To the 4:12 comentator,
    There was a good book on this subject entitled "Free Speech for Me but not for Thee".

  • Idiots running the Asylum
    Nov. 12, 2008 4:12 p.m.

    The California Musical Theatre is spineless. That they allowed Eckern to resign just because he voted, and supported, his conscience, and considering that it was within his rights to do so, according to the statement by the theater, is unconscionable.

    I guess the flip side is for everyone to start boycotting every project by every Hollywood type that donated money to the No on 8 cause.

    The only betrayal here is that the California Musical Theatre tossed Eckern overboard to appease threats of a boycott.

    Ever notice how you're only a "Free Thinker" if you share the opinion of the liberals? If you think differently, they will persecute you until your bones are picked clean.

    I guess voting isn't the American way any longer.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 12, 2008 3:41 p.m.

    I have found a more complete statement by Eckern. I think he brings up many valid points.
    "I understand that my choice of supporting Proposition 8 has been the cause of many hurt feelings, maybe even betrayal. It was not my intent. I honestly had no idea that this would be the reaction. I chose to act upon my belief that the traditional definition of marriage should be preserved. I support each individual to have rights and access and I understood that in California domestic partnerships come with the same rights that come with marriage. My sister is a lesbian and in a committed domestic partnership relationship. I am loving and supportive of her and her family, and she is loving and supportive of me and my family. I definitely do not support any message or treatment of others that is hateful or instills fear. This is a highly emotional issue and the accusations that have been made against me are simply not true. I have now had many conversations with friends and colleagues,and I am deeply saddened thatmy personal beliefs and convictions have offended others." There is more, but this is his main point.

  • seattle1
    Nov. 12, 2008 3:31 p.m.

    Thanks to everyone who is protesting prop 8--an assault on human dignity, love, and civil rights. Human rights cannot be put up to majority vote. We will prevail!

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 12, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    I think that Brother Eckern went to far in apologizing for speaking in favor of traditional marriage.
    I think the fact that people can not follow their religion and maintain their job is very disturbing.

  • From the church
    Nov. 12, 2008 3:21 p.m.

    Okay you win.

  • Religion and Gays
    Nov. 12, 2008 1:02 p.m.

    If everyone took the time and effort to see how a lot of religions have treated their gay brothers and sisters through the ages, I think it would be apparent to understand the anger they have towards them. I think this was probably the tipping point.

  • re: anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2008 12:59 p.m.

    "They are acting like children both in the bedroom and on the streets."

    So, you are not a believer in legal, organized protests?

  • Serves Him Right!
    Nov. 12, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    The California Musical Theatre in Sacramento, California today confirmed that its Artistic Director, Scott Eckern, a Mormon, resigned under pressure this morning after gay and lesbian artists began organizing a boycott of the theater company over Eckern's $1,000 contribution in support of Proposition 8.

    The Theater's Board of Directors said the organization is "dedicated only to the mission of providing quality theatrical productions. At no time does it involve itself in political issues or ever impinge on the rights of its employees to engage in political activities of their choice."

    Before he resigned, Eckern issued an online apology through the theater publication, Playbill.

    "I honestly had no idea that this would be the reaction," Eckern wrote. "I chose to act upon my belief that the traditional definition of marriage should be preserved. I support each individual to have rights and access and I understand that in California, domestic partnerships come with the same rights that come with marriage. I understand that my choice of supporting Proposition 8 has been the cause of many hurt feelings, maybe even betrayal," Eckern wrote. "It was not my intent."

  • to IMAN
    Nov. 12, 2008 10:53 a.m.

    We shall see, we shall see.

    Nov. 12, 2008 10:52 a.m.

    Yes, IMAN, just as soon as all the mindless vandalism, pointless protests, message board rants and profane placards all fade into oblivion, we will all return to our previous state of irrelevance.

    Thanks for noticing!

  • Ryanne
    Nov. 12, 2008 10:49 a.m.

    The majority of Los Angeles county voted to ban gay marriage. That shows despite the celebrity endorsements and the big bucks thrown to the no campaign, the majority of Californians are intelligent, moral people who can see through the lies and deceptions. No raised more money and had alot more TV ads than yes did. They aired during the top rated shows. Guess what, it didn't work. These ads claimed gay marriage had nothing to do with schools and yet it was a well known fact that first graders were taken to a lesbian wedding. Yes on 8 won!!!! Deal with it.

  • Shazam, Gisele!
    Nov. 12, 2008 10:47 a.m.

    Step back away from the edge, Gisele ... take a deep breath ... let rational thought occur before typing any further responses ...

    I'm halfway convinced that you are a Yes on Prop. 8 troll, whose purpose it is to make the "No" side look ridiculous by spouting such utterly inconceivable rhetoric.

    But ... in the slight case that you are for real ... I suggest you learn what the separation of church and state is. It is not that generally religious ideals, morals and ethics cannot be reflected in societal laws. It is that there is no state-sponsored religion. This country was founded on the basis of "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion."

    No one is suggesting a "unity of church and state" as you so "flabbergastingly" suggest. For you to so state is either just another in a string of lies espoused by the "No on 8" crowd or stratospherically arrogant and a low point on the childish, inarticulate scale of debate.

    Thanks for "enlightening" us with your dogma.

    (The preceding message was approved by those who don't feel the need to capitalize random words to express their points of emphasis.)

  • Keri
    Nov. 12, 2008 10:43 a.m.

    If California says homosexual marriage is bad, it must be really bad. If they say it twice, it must be really, really bad!!!!!!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2008 10:28 a.m.

    no venting just the facts. They are acting like children both in the bedroom and on the streets.

  • IMAN
    Nov. 12, 2008 9:24 a.m.


    you and your religion are already sliding down th eslippery slope of irrelevance. It's only a matter of time.

  • Yankee Doodle
    Nov. 12, 2008 9:04 a.m.

    Starting today, gay marriages being in Connecticut. Are you Mormons going to turn your venom on that state now? Doesn't your prophet worry about the children there and start another hate campaign towards that state?

  • It's all been explained now
    Nov. 12, 2008 8:32 a.m.

    "gays simply choose not to grow up. they're stuck in the elementary school mindset of thinking the opposite sex has cooties. they also choose to throw temper tantrums when they don't get their own way."

    Venting is what goes on here, not exchange of reasonable ideas.

  • The People
    Nov. 12, 2008 8:30 a.m.

    Boycott Utah, The Hate State!

  • RE: Gisele
    Nov. 12, 2008 3:34 a.m.

    I'm glad we have the articulation police patrolling this thread. The establishment clause treats the subject of government-sponsored religion. If you think we're trying to cause the government to establish our religion, you are clearly mistaken. There are plenty of secular, evidence-based arguments promoting traditional marriage, and there are plenty of religious-minded people trying to protect a natural order. Is there plenty of religious fervor in this debate? Absolutely! How can you separate life from religion?! Not even the gays can claim immunity from religious conviction! Humans, by nature, are religious!!!

  • Gisele
    Nov. 12, 2008 12:44 a.m.

    Over and over and OVER on these Prop 8-related comments, I have seen supporters of prop 8 proclaiming that there is nothing in the Constitution that separates church from state--like it is their right to allow their dogma to dictate the government's actions. I will enlighten you. If there was no separation of church and state, the STATE would be dictating YOUR beliefs. NOT vice versa.

    The STRATOSPHERIC arrogance of some of the childish, inarticulate religious supporters of prop 8 on these message boards is flabbergasting! Do you REALLY think your religion, a tiny minority itself, would BENEFIT from a unity of church in state against everyone else's beliefs in all of the religious institutions in your imagined American democratic theocracy?

    You had better thank your lucky stars that this is NOT the way our country is run and be VERY careful what you wish for.

  • for prop 8
    Nov. 12, 2008 12:08 a.m.

    Same sex marriage will be taught in school if prop 8 is overturned. California teachers union contributed to the vote on no. Other contributors to the no vote include McDonalds, Levi Strauss, Southern Cal. Edison, Steven Spielberg, the good governor of California speaks out in favor of a no vote. Does that not leave cause for concern? These are people who have a lot of influence on youth. A good friend of mine is concerned her children will one day have a field trip to a gay wedding through the school. Sound ludicrist? Well, it happened and could happen to her children too. How many field trips have you seen a school take to see a straight marriage? What message did that carry? Of course there will be sad reprocusions if the gay rights succeed, both morally and legally.
    How come all the defacing these people have been doing is not being considered by the law as hate crimes? Their faces were on TV as they hung their signs in LA on the LDS temple wall. Not rocket science as to who did it, so why does not the law enforcement act when appropriate?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2008 11:28 p.m.

    gays simply choose not to grow up. they're stuck in the elementary school mindset of thinking the opposite sex has cooties. they also choose to throw temper tantrums when they don't get their own way.

  • for prop 8
    Nov. 11, 2008 11:24 p.m.

    A vote yes on prop 8 bans same sex marriage in Calif., a state I left because it became increasingly hard to watch what was happening to this good state. All the hate and indecent, immature behavior is coming from the gay community it seems. They sound furious with religion in general. I remember the fires and looting in LA some years ago that was very frightening. The lawlessness shown here is no less frightening. How do they expect us to respect them when they are so disrespectful to everyone else. I'll not change my religious convictions in spite of all the hateful mean things that are directed against my faith. It's pointless. It is the gay plan (read their site on the net) to stir up all the trouble they can across the nation to try to force their views down everyones throats. Remember too, that the gay community had heavy contributions on their side. Shall the majority of the nation march against these people, boycott them and spew out hate? We're better than that.

  • to Roger Carrier
    Nov. 11, 2008 11:23 p.m.

    This isn't about what they do in private. It's about how their private behavior affects the public. If it is legalized, children must be taught about homosexuality as part of diversity. A first grade class was taken to a lesbian wedding. When have you heard of instruction time being used to attend a traditional wedding? Use the internet to educate yourself about the reality of what has happened in Mass. since gay marriage was legalized. The next step will mandate that pedophilia be taught as part of diversity because you cannot discriminate based on sexual preferences. they have their registered domestic partnership CA family code 297.5 which clearly states they have all the rights of a spouse. The activists aren't happy with that. They won't rest until they've invaded our schools and can indoctrinate our kids. It was legal here for only a few weeks and it didn't take long for them to take first graders to a lesbian wedding. Let the indoctrination begin.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2008 9:57 p.m.

    wow such hate on both sides. love thy neighbor as thy self.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2008 8:54 p.m.

    People don't decide to be gay or lesbian. They just are.

    Marriages between same sex couples and mixed sex couples are recognized in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, South Africa and Canada. There are also Mormon Temples in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, South Africa and Canada.

    As far as I know, not a single same sex couple in any of those locations has filed a lawsuit demanding they be allowed to be married in their local Mormon Temple.

    The Mormon Church remains free to exclude mothers, fathers children and siblings who don't meet their standards from even attending weddings in its Temples.

  • Yo, Steve
    Nov. 11, 2008 8:35 p.m.

    Steve, passage of a law allowing gay marriage may indeed have drastic repercussions on the continued decline of morality in the world today, but it will not result in the downfall of the church.

    If you believe LDS doctrine, as you say, you should know that the church will never again be taken from the Earth until the Second Coming.

  • Nostrajonas
    Nov. 11, 2008 8:28 p.m.

    I predict that years from now, thanks to the Internet, the meticulously documented and well-circulated list of contributors to the Prop 8 fund, their hometowns and employers will be looked upon with historical respect from their descendents because they stood up for what they believed in and feared God more than the prevailing doctrine of man.

  • Jonas
    Nov. 11, 2008 7:36 p.m.

    I predict that years from now, thanks to the internet, the meticulously documented and well-circulated list of contributors to the prop 8 fund, their hometowns and employers will be looked at as a historical disgrace from the ascendants of those contributors.

  • Steve
    Nov. 11, 2008 7:06 p.m.

    To any of my fellow LDS people here who are unaware of how letting them do what they want affects us, allow me to sum it up for you.

    If Prop 8 is passed, gay/lesbian marriage becomes legal.

    If G/L marriage becomes legal, they can be married according to their choice. Everybody with me so far?

    Now here's the bad part. Suppose somebody that is LDS decides to be G/L anyway. Where will they want to be married? thats right. In the temple.

    But we wont let them marry in the temple, because is it against our standards and doctrine.

    So, suddenly, the church is discriminating because of something that apparently is now legal.

    This could spell out a major blow, or even the downfall of the church. THAT is why I am for Prop 8, because I believe that the LDS church is true, and I do not want it removed from the Earth.

  • Re: Utahn living in New York
    Nov. 11, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    "Just over a 100 years ago, we were the ones fighting for the acceptance of the "Mormon" definition of marriage (e.g. one many/many wives)."

    While I do give you full marks for having a good point, you are forgetting a key point. This article is not about them trying to get acceptance (though many of the comments are), it is about a rally held in Salt Lake. 100 years ago, when the government ruled that marriage was to be between ONE man and ONE woman, the church leaders immediately declared that we would obey the law. These people are not doing the same. They are acting in denial of the law, and refusing to believe that they could possibly be wrong.

  • Re: To S.S.
    Nov. 11, 2008 6:36 p.m.

    Who wrote:

    "The LGBT group has gained ground, a 10% gain in popular opinion in 8 years, judging by the vote in Prop. 22 in 2000 over the Vote in Prop 8 just last week. That's wasting time? Obviously you will not change your mind because you are set in your own locked up mind, but 10% of the population has changed their mind in the last 8 years. Too bad yours is locked up in age-old mentality."

    Speaking of locked-up minds, what are the chances of you changing your mind?

    That's what I thought. Looks like you are set in your own locked-up mind.

    Just because public perception is changing doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Ya know, I'm pretty sure all those people who refused to board Noah's Ark considered themselves free thinkers, too.

    Morality talks. Free thinking walks.

  • To S.S.
    Nov. 11, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    Who wrote:

    "Wow, 24 pages of comments - obviously the "hot-button" issue of our day. I gave up reading about/arguing about this topic several days ago. I'm not going to change my mind (I was for Prop 8) and I don't think I'll change anyone else's mind on it. Why waste your time?"

    Waste time? --- you don't see the change in society.

    The LGBT group has gained ground, a 10% gain in popular opinion in 8 years, judging by the vote in Prop. 22 in 2000 over the Vote in Prop 8 just last week. That's wasting time? Obviously you will not change your mind because you are set in your own locked up mind, but 10% of the population has changed their mind in the last 8 years. Too bad yours is locked up in age-old mentality.

    We'll wake your mind up when everyone has equal rights. Don't worry.

  • And in this corner ...
    Nov. 11, 2008 4:14 p.m.

    Re: Free Thinker vs. Ultimate Thinker:

    Game, set and match to Ultimate Thinker.

    Free Thinker Dude, try bringing your "A" game -- if you have one -- next time.

  • Ultimate Thinker
    Nov. 11, 2008 3:37 p.m.

    Methinks Free Thinker lost the caboose off his train of thought:

    1. "Religion is a personal experience for each and every person. How dare ANYONE try to define it."

    Personally, I trust God to define it.

    2. "We ALL get to heaven in our own way."

    Data does not compute. So, now you can get yourself to heaven all by yourself? Please share your secret. In fact, show us now!

    Everyone gets to heaven no matter what kind of life they've lived? I can't wait to share the good afterlife with Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Osama bin Laden and their ilk. Sounds like a great reward for living a good life.

    3. "Those that supported this 'ban' are nothing more than bigots."

    You don't really seem to be much of a Free Thinker after all.

    4. "I have lived in SLC and ALWAYS thought ..."

    Whoops, I guess that "Free Thinker" label kind of comes and goes, doesn't it?

    5. " ... that the 'insistence' of the LDS church has always been to benefit a few and to protagonize anyone else.

    Is "pro-tagonize" the opposite of "con-tagonize"?

    Moral: Apparently Free Thinking is worth about what you pay for it.

  • Re: Moral fiber?
    Nov. 11, 2008 3:35 p.m.

    Obviously you haven't seen what's happening to the religious in Canada. Ministers are being sued, and in one case arrested, for preaching that homosexuality is a sin. Religious organizations, such as adoption agencies and family counseling and the like are being shut down all over the country because they don't cater to homosexuals. There are lawsuits pending to allow polygamy to be legal because it's discriminatory to allow homosexual marriage but not plural marriage. There are many other issues going on as well. Just ask Canadiandy to repost his list of all the problems arising from this issue.

  • Oxymoron Thinker
    Nov. 11, 2008 3:17 p.m.

    I've always loved the idiocy of those who claim to be "Free Thinkers" simply because they have a different opinion than yours.

    Using their same illogic, doesn't the mere fact that they have made up their mind on something mean that they are, by their own definition, no longer free thinkers?

  • Language Bigot
    Nov. 11, 2008 3:12 p.m.

    Yo, Free Thinker, how do you like your irony served?

    Your liberal abuse of the English language, er, um, "is clearly, the result of a failed public-education system and the subsequent failure of intelligent parenting."

  • The Bottom Line
    Nov. 11, 2008 1:18 p.m.

    No biological study has conclusively proven that all gays are born not made and I doubt there will ever be one.

    Most religious people like me have deeply held convictions that cannot be explained to the non-believer. Frankly, the put downs and "intellectual" arguments posted on here and by others really have no effect.

    At the same time, I realize it is important to many gays to be validated in the eyes of the majority. I really think marriage is just their chosen vehicle to get to this validation, but everyone wants to be validated nonetheless.

    The bottom line then, is how do we compromise on a solution that gives one group their civil rights without violating the first amendment rights (remember religious freedom?) of others?

    Both sides have to be willing to give some ground here or this will simply escalate and get uglier. It could easily escalate into violence which won't solve anything other than more needless loss of life.

  • SS
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:58 p.m.

    Wow, 24 pages of comments - obviously the "hot-button" issue of our day. I gave up reading about/arguing about this topic several days ago. I'm not going to change my mind (I was for Prop 8) and I don't think I'll change anyone else's mind on it. Why waste your time?

  • Moral fiber?
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:55 p.m.

    If gay marriage is so evil --- why has Canada not gone into the toilet?

    Because they live and they let live.

    I can think of a lot of things that are "heinous" and I don't see the fundamentals taking to the streets and emptying their pockets to fund a proposition with millions.

  • Dumb and Penultimate
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:39 p.m.

    To Smart and Final:

    Truth is cheaper than therapy.

  • Ridiculous!!!!!!!
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:22 p.m.

    To Smart & Final

    WOW. I was under the impression that abusive, offensive comments would not be posted.

    Plain & Simple is just stating the facts.

  • Free Thinker
    Nov. 11, 2008 11:20 a.m. protagonize even a word? I don't think so.

    Should be 'antagonize'.

  • Free Thinker
    Nov. 11, 2008 11:17 a.m.

    The religious right in this country is pathetic. Religion is a personal experience for each and every person. How dare ANYONE try to define it.

    We ALL get to heaven in our own way.

    Those that supported this 'ban' are nothing more than bigots. This is clearly, the result of a failed public-education system and the subsequent failure of intelligent parenting.

    I have lived in SLC and always thought that the 'insistence' of the LDS church has always been to benefit a few and to protagonize anyone else.


    Nov. 11, 2008 9:55 a.m.

    Everyday it gets a little stinker on here. Whoooy!

  • Smart & Final
    Nov. 11, 2008 8:48 a.m.

    To Plain & Simple:

    Do you have an obsessive compulsive disorder? Suggest you get therapy...

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2008 4:48 a.m.

    While the church may not have given financial support itself, it encouraged its members to do so and was very public about it. A clear case of "Do as I say, not as I do," if you will. Opponents of Prop 8 will not consider your argument claiming no financial involvement based on your transparent technicality. I myself reviewed a very long published list of the individual names and their associated companies and places of employment for each donation, large and small, all from Utah in a very public newsletter I subscribe to online. Protests against these sources and their affiliated institutions will continue, and those institutions will be held accountable.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:26 a.m.

    To Majority Rules???:

    Hats off to you that you have read In re Marriages. I am glad you have such certainty that Prop 8 will be overturned. It is one thing to overturn a statute enacted by the people, but to overturn the consitution when the people have used the democratic process to amend it amounts to nothing more than judicial tyranny. These judges do not have life time appointments and will come up for reconfirmation. I am sure they remember what had to Justice Bird and the other two justices she lead who refused to upheld any death penalty cases.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:13 a.m.

    To Judeges in California:

    I suppose the point you were trying to make with the make up of the California Supreme Court being made up of 6 Republican appointed judges and one Democrat is that the court is conservative and not liberal. That may be true on criminal cases, but not social issues. Just because they were appointed by a Republican doesn't make them conservative. Does the name Earl Warren mean anything to you? He was one of our nation's most liberal justices to the U.S. Supreme court and was appointed by Dwight Eisenhower (R).

  • More than a moral issue
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:08 a.m.

    David LeCheminant is quoted in the article as saying that "The LDS Church sees this as a moral issue." My understanding is that there were also legal concerns, like the possibility that the LDS church, or any church for that matter, could be forced to perform same-sex marriages or be shut down. I cannot speak for the church leaders, but my sense is that if they could have been guaranteed that they would not be forced to compromise their doctrine, they probably would not have been so vocal or involved. I'm sure they would have reiterated the church's stance on the sanctity of marriage between a man and a women, and they may have encouraged their members to support that position specifically (or maybe not). However, I think it's also possible that they would have, like they do every election, simply encouraged their members to exercise their right to vote, first of all, and second, to vote for candidates and policies that each member feels best support his or her values. I think there was more to the church's concern than what kind of marriage is "right" or "wrong."

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 11, 2008 12:04 a.m.

    To Heidi:

    "The LDS church gave $22 million . . ." Stop the lies; if you believe you are telling the truth then back up that stuff with a source. The LDS church did not donate $22 million. Over 19,000 entities mostly individuals made contributions. The truth is easily found on California's Secretary of State's website, but most people know it is easier to sit at a keyboard and spew out falsehoods when facts aren't important.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:57 p.m.

    To Joseph:

    "The Mormon church's enormous financial support of this proposition is hurting both." The church gave no enormous financial support. If you would take the time to check the California Secretary of State's website you would know that. However if you want to emote do not go there, because facts get in the way of emoting.

  • Plain & Simple:
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:49 p.m.

    To Nigel UK:

    Your assertion of " . . . commanded to obery. Every Mormon bishop in California was instructed to inform you, based on your tithing, how much you should contribute to Prop 8." How about a source for that one? Interesting that someone from the UK would be weighing in on California politics.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:44 p.m.

    To True Californian:

    Wow two whoppers in one post! Your sources please on the amount you claimed. Also your assertion that the LDS church dumped money into California from Utah. Tell that to all the coalition members in California. Better yet look up the California Secretary of State's website and you can see where the donors came from and how much they gave. Admittedly that takes more effort than to report misinformation.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:40 p.m.

    To Ekaternia: "I think the LDS church should have its tax exempt status revoked...It would help our economy. Don't be so limited in your thinking of helping the economy. Go after all the coalition churchs, and all the churches addvocating liberal views.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:34 p.m.

    Marriage definitions:

    Judicial activism is not leadership; it is judicial tyranny. The California George court has placed our society on a slippery slope that is steep and icy with the outcome below if it is not overturned by upholding Prop 8.

    Group 1; Yes on 8; Narrowest definition; marriage is the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. Source of authority; God, history, all cultures, religions and societies, legal precednt, common law, all dictionaries.

    Group 2; No on 8; Broader definition; same as above plus domestic partnerships. Source of authority; 4-3 vote In re Marriages, acknowledges domestic partnerships as having the same or nearly the same substantive rights as marriage, but having two names (marriage & domestic partnerships) they don't provide the same dignity and respect; therfor impinging on the right to marry.

    Group 3; Future plaintiffs; broadest definition; same as Group 2, plus parent to child, sibling to sibling, man to beast, & multiple spouses. Source of authority; In re Marriage page 6, "The core substantive rights include, most fundamentally, the opportunity of an individual to establish. . . and entitled to the same respect and dignity acorded a union traditionally designated as marriage."

  • alan
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:32 p.m.

    Why are Mormons so surprised that they are the target for those that lost the right to marry the one they loved. The Church members under direction of Church leadership orchestrated 70% of the funding and 80% of the footwork. Volunteer sheets were passed around Priesthood meetings every week. So now the Church can be proud that they imposed their religious beliefs on an entire state. The Church can also be proud that they got this vote by distorting the truth and in some cases outright lying in the Yes on 8 TV ads. And do you believe you have opened hearts to hear the gospel? What do you think the reaction will be from almost half of the states population that supported not taking away the right to marry from couples that love each other? A gospel of love? Hardly. Has the Church forgotten so soon what it felt like when their constitutional rights were voted on by the state of Illinois? And yes, allowing everyone the right to marry was a constitutional right that has been taken away. So now the Church is just going to have to pay the price for its role.

  • RexidaWyo_NC
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:13 p.m.

    On photo 8 that accompanies this article there is a sign held up which reads "When do I get to vote on your marriage?" The answer to that is or was on November 4, 2008. That is when the ballot measure read that marriage would be defined as between a man and a woman. It says nothing about between a homosexual and another homosexual. Therefore the measure was about my marriage and my marriage won. Get over it. The people have spoken.

    The sad thing about this issue is not that any group lost, it is the fact that our country is turning in a direction that is so foreign to our constitutional foundation. There are groups that are striving with their might to take away all rights to stand for virtue and morality. They mock the very moral base that this nation were founded on and now they want to shut the mouths of those that are just now starting to push back.

    You may rally. You may have the courts overturn again the vote of the people. But virtue is virtue, sin is sin, and those that are with us way outnumber those against us.

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:08 p.m.

    You can't vote to take away the rights of the minority. That's the problem, and that's why people are stirred. It's not about Mormonism. It's about the policy of the present LDS leadership. And guess what? It will gradually change as people fifty and older die off.

    I'm 62 and think this whole debate will look very strange in 2020. On July 1, 2020--if I'm still alive at seventy-four--I'll be standing on the steps of the Utah State Capitol Building saying, "Look, I told you, gay marriage was not the end of the world, and it turned out to be good for America."

    Mormons may still not allow gay marriage, but it will be legal in most places, maybe even the entire country. It's legal in Spain and elsewhere, and nothing terrible has happened.

    PS: I like Mormons and think they are Christians.

  • Miss Analogy
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:05 p.m.

    Next we should get all the students who hate going to school to march on the district office to demand they abolish all the schools. And while were at it, playing in the street is good fun but people tell me I cant, who are they to tell me how to live my life? I have my rights! Lets vote to let people play in the street to their hearts content!

  • the election is over
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:03 p.m.

    You lost. Deal with it like an American, or go to one of the tyrannical countries like Venezuela where they use arguments and anger like yours every day to justify their anti-social behavior. They'll be more "loving" and "tolerant" of you in their own special way.

  • John
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:29 p.m.

    To all LDS members who disagree with the Church's stance on Proposition 8, think of this. If the LDS Church does not perform gay weddings in the temples, gays could sue the Church for discrimination and the temples would be shut down for not being in compliance with new legislation. The Church would also lose their tax-exempt status. The Church had to make a stand to prevent temples from being shut down.

  • Dang Deedra!
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:26 p.m.

    John Pack Lambert is happy that Prop 8 passed. Let's just keep it at that.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:58 p.m.

    To Deedra,
    You have not had someone try to steal their identity like I have.
    I know what I posted, and I know what I did not post, and I have never posted that I think this is other than an important issue.
    How could I post such and be consistent with following the direction of the First Presidency?

  • Enough already
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:49 p.m.

    Holy Crap. Read all these comments from us and it is no wonder we are hated so much. Just stop it people we are embarassing ourselves. Enough now! The people have voted let it die!!

  • To Brandon
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:43 p.m.

    Homosexuality is a sin--there is no greater sin, next to murder and adultery.

  • Deedra
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:26 p.m.

    Oh, PLEASE! John Pack Lambert. You post so often that you probably forgot what you posted or when you posted. Their are several of you on all blogs, and who always fight over who is John pack Lambert. Geeze! No one cares who you three guys are. Perhaps you should take a break and get over yourself.

    No on is attacking your family. Your family isn't being singled out from millions of others... Geeze! You need to get a grip, and just stick with prop-8. And try to relax.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:12 p.m.

    The person at 7:33 may be named John Pack Lambert, I do not know, although I have a very, very, strong suspicion that he is not, however he is not the John Pack Lambert who has posted over and over and over again on these boards, and who has been attacked and maligned many times.
    I am not even convinced that this new John Pack Lambert knows what this ballot measure is. Is he saying he has homosexual family members and does not see it attacking them, or does he think it would legalize same-sex marriage and mean that.
    I guess that is consistent with his insitence that the issue does not matter, however his repetative posting on the issue, including trying to claim the name is not.
    I have to admit I find it very suspicious that the one other person who attempts to use a real three name post somehow mysteriously happenes to have the same name as me.

  • Brandon
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:09 p.m.

    Homosexuality is sinful? I can think of a greater sin.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:33 p.m.

    This is absurd! I'm the real John Pack Lambert and whomever posted at 2:51 is being deceitful and rude. I really think we need to relax and worry about the real issues. (The economy, terrorism, health care.)Like I stated earlier, I don't see this ballot measure as an attack on my family.

  • Jamie
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:30 p.m.

    Re: Mary Ann

    It may be sad for you, but it is not sad for me. I plan to stay firm and stand up for what's right. NO MORE GAYS. The medical world needs to figure out what to do with these people who have weird sex with the same sex. It make NO SENSE--THAT's THAT!

  • hey
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:28 p.m.

    It is interesting to see the Gay comunity show their true colors.

  • Mary Ann
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:19 p.m.

    Sad and very sad is what we have become as LDS. I think a little better tact could be used. It is sad that lay people comment without any intellegence, it makes us look bad. Right message, wrong people. I would feel it appropriate that the Prophet speak up about this and give it straight. I am soooooo tired of John Pack Lambert and the such. Lets hear the skinny form the source and maybe quell this argument.

  • Duh
    Nov. 10, 2008 6:57 p.m.

    Ohhh everyone is going to boycott Utah. Give me a break, for every boycotter there are 3 wanting to come see what Utah is all about. Go ahead, stay away, I won't lose sleep over it. Tourism will be just fine. I bet we see an increase because of the controversy. Most people don't even give credence to boycotts. I don't have to accept homosexuals, I can tolerate them but I don't have to accept your values just like you have the right to refuse mine. Don't cry fowl when you all preach the same thing, just with a different face. You cry about how your rights are tramped on and then jump on the religous trampling bus and dish out your own. If a church wants to stand up for their beliefs, it is no different then your religious organizations that stand up for your Homosexual beliefs. We have the right to decide what we want in our state. When and if it ever gets defeated in ours, I won't shed a tear over it. I just won't accept it.

  • Majority Rules???
    Nov. 10, 2008 6:31 p.m.

    I've seen many posts touting the fact that the majority has spoken and get over it...

    May I remind some that the will of the majority, if unjust, is still unjust. Southerners overwhelmingly supported Jim Crow and segregation, but the activist judges on the Supreme Court overturned the will of the majority on constitutional grounds.

    How is this any different? I just read the 100 page decision of the Cal. Sup. Ct. and it puts this issue squarely within the fundamental right of marriage acknowledged in the Cal. state constitution. From a legal standpoint, it seems Prop 8 does nothing more than resurrect Prop 22 from 2000. It will be overturned again and rightly so - popular will holds no trump card over fundamental rights...

  • and when the day
    Nov. 10, 2008 6:22 p.m.

    comes that my son marries a will be the END..the END...riders on the storm!

  • Michelle, my belle
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:57 p.m.

    Yes, Michelle -- you quite possibly are the only one in the entire world with love for everyone. (Sigh -- you must be so lonely up there in your ivory tower.)

    I thought I loved everyone, but have since learned from recent protests that if my opinion is different from somebody else's then my feelings must stem from hatred not from a greater love.

    Personally, I love people who make non-sensical declarative posts. (So, Michelle, wink, wink, you wanna get together later?)

  • Live Your Life
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:55 p.m.

    In the Words of T.I. .........Stop looking at what you ain't got and be thankful for what you got!

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:41 p.m.

    No, you're not the only one. I'm an old guy and married a long time. Live and let live is my philosophy Gay marriage will be good for America.

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:35 p.m.

    If you oppose gay marriage, then so be it, but don't try to shove your opinion down other people's throats. There is nothing wrong with being gay and having a loving gay relationship.

    I'm not gay, but I follow the philosophy of live and let live. I've been around 62 years and married forty years, and I've found that works best.

    Quit concentrating on what your neighbors are doing in the bedroom. As long as they are consenting adults, it is none of your business.

  • X-LDS
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:35 p.m.

    Boycott all Tourist spots In Ca + Utah !!! Hit'em where it hurts in the pocket book!!

  • re: oh what fun
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:27 p.m.

    "What are the gays doing now?"

    Protesting centuries of hatred towards people like them. Prop 8 just happens to be the backdrop.

  • Michelle
    Nov. 10, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    Times change and laws change. I hope gay marriage is one day accepted by all people. The posts on this board make me sad. I strongly believe in loving everyone. I guess I might be the only one . .

  • Bert
    Nov. 10, 2008 4:26 p.m.

    By all means - feel hurt, protest, live whatever lifestyle you like - BUT
    Don't try and normalise your inappropriate behaviour by covering it in the cloak of respectability by using the term 'marriage'. That has been reserved for the relationship between a man and a woman.
    If you wish a term - go for it - be creative - come up with your own - one that clearly describes to all your situation and DIFFERENTIATES it from the current understanding of marriage. It is not the same and never will be.
    This is not mean spirited - it is a 'stand up and fight' reaction in response to a proposed erosion of something that is valued in society.

  • oh what fun
    Nov. 10, 2008 4:21 p.m.

    the funnest part about being a yes on 8 supporter was when we got to follow every voter into the voting booth and put a gun to their head and threaten to shoot them if they didnt vote yes. Say all you want, the people spoke and said no to gay marriage without threat or coercion. What a the gays doing now? Threatening. What a bunch of hot air.

  • Frank
    Nov. 10, 2008 4:10 p.m.

    popular culture is based on hypocricy, excess, addiction, and regret and the elimination of freedom. It's too bad when we have to bow to secular fanatics.

  • I'll be back
    Nov. 10, 2008 4:06 p.m.

    Hey, Valentina, if your governor Ahnuld had any gravitas, he would have made a stand before the vote. If the proposition was unconstitutional, they should have not let it on the ballot.

    You have judges writing their own laws, saying something is contrary to the state constitution. So the constitution is legally amended by the vote of your citizens -- and now you want to hide behind your liberal judges again?

    Talk about subverting the Constitution.

    What wooden, second-rate actor are you going to elect next? Keanu Reeves?

  • realitycheck
    Nov. 10, 2008 4:00 p.m.

    religion is based on hypocricy and a reduction of civil rights. It's too bad when we have to bow to religious fanatics, like the mormon church.

  • Just Curious
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:55 p.m.

    Are they going to the headquarters of the NAACP to protest next? After all, 75% of black voters voted in favor of Prop 8.

  • Annoyed
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:51 p.m.

    To Reply at 3:19pm.

    Read more articles! They have attacked people, vandalized churches, ect.

    This is what you call freedom of speech?

    And that is all I have to say about that!

  • A civil rights issue, Yeah right
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:44 p.m.

    Any of you remember how the civil rights of the FLDS were trampled in Texas. I dont agree with polygamy, the laws that stand with polygamy and same-sex marriage are fine with me. Just want to know where all these equal rights protesters were when the FLDS civil rights volition occurred. Seem the streets were pretty quite then. Is just that it is ok some civil right volition take place, just alone as they are ok with you.

  • Re Annoyed 3:19 pm
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:40 p.m.

    Violence? The article I read said the demostration was peaceful. Regardless of where you sit on the Prop 8 issue, I for one am still extremely grateful to live in a country where freedom of speech is preserved. That's all I have to say about that.

  • Fred
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:38 p.m.

    Just like babies they through a "HISSY FIT" They claim to be tolerant. Only Tolerant of anythng they agree with.

    It just shows what a bunch of babies they are. They will go away soon enough.

  • Annoyed
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:19 p.m.

    The Gay Protest is getting pathetic. They have come to violence to get what they want. I have to agree that they have ticked a lot of people off. Those who have been victimized by their violence and tantrums are better people for what they have gone through. Gays are not earning people's respect at all.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:10 p.m.

    To Fact vs. Myths

    What part of No didn't we understand? The part that says that you and the millions of dollars that Mormons donated shouldn't be able to amend a constitution to ALLOW discrimination. Talk about going backwards.

  • Laura
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:03 p.m.

    I don't know about you but our Sacrament meeting was packed on Sunday. No empty seats.

  • Valentina
    Nov. 10, 2008 3:02 p.m.

    Hey Bored,

    I can't think of a better thing to do on any night than standing up for Civil Rights. In fact, I couldn't think of anything better to do on Saturday night, which is why I was out marching in LA with thousands of other people, gay and straight, who think that taking away the rights of American citizens is absolutely wrong.

    Even our Republican governor told us not to give up and expect it will be deemed unconstitutional.

  • An Eye for an Eye
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:53 p.m.

    Hey, Jill, I'll see the cancellation of your family trip to Utah and raise you by aborting my family's planned trip to San Francisco because I don't want to subject my kids to the "All's well in Sodom and Gomorrah" attitude.

    Now, have we really accomplished anything?

    I guess "Wow" is in the eye of the beholder.

  • IMAN
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:52 p.m.

    Re: Active Citizen.

    The world is a dangerous place because of the type of people who supported prop 8.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:51 p.m.

    I did not post the 1:54 comments. I take major, major issues at people using my name in making posts. This is very disturbing to have others steal my identity.
    I have to admit that this is the only race I really deep down cared about. Prop 8 passing is what makes it so I am happy right now.

  • Jack
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:46 p.m.

    Jill, please don't cancel your holiday vacation to Salt Lake because you don't want your kids to be around that kind of narrow influence. I'm sure the bigoted protesters will be long gone by then!

  • Heidi in Wonderland
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:42 p.m.

    Yo, Shilo, I know exactly what I said, but you apparently don't know what you read.

    You took exception with: "Gays already are currently allowed in the congregrations. Sexual sin -- be it gay or straight -- will never be acceptable. The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive."

    Where did I say that sinners aren't allowed in the congregations? Nowhere. Of course the congregations are filled with people who have sinned in every different kind of way. What I said was, "The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive." Sexual sin will never be condoned. In the same way, if adulterers want to protest around LDS Church buildings because they have been excommunicated for simply following their natural desires -- I would say the same thing ... it will never be condoned or accepted just because of protests, etc.

    The Church doesn't change its stand based on the precepts -- or political correctness -- of man. It never has, it never will. That's all I'm sayin'.

    You're preaching to the choir.

  • Jules
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:33 p.m.

    People have a right to protest. The responses to this story show how we all want to defend ourselves and many are spiteful. Is that what we're taught at church? I must belong to a different church because mine, from its top leaders, tell us to be tolerant and kind and not mean-spirited. I'm LDS and support Prop 8 but I don't wish the protestors any ill feeling, even when it is against the church I love and believe in.

  • To: Shilo
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:32 p.m.

    You missed the point of To Heidi's comment. He or she said that homosexuals are already welcome in the congregation, because Heidi claimed they weren't. He said that the sin would never be changed to something acceptable, not that they weren't allowed to come to church. It works the same as any other sin. The behavior is wrong, but the people committing the behavior are always welcome. It's just that they can't attend the temple unless they're doing their very best to control those behaviors.

  • To Laura:
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:25 p.m.

    "The Catholic Adoption Agency had to shut their doors in Boston because they lost their funding and tax exemptions for refusing to allow gay adoptions"

    They chose to shut their doors. They did not lose their funding. If they stayed open, they needed to do same-sex adoptions because they take public funds.

    I think this is the type of "erroneous information" said was coming from the no on 8 side.

  • What is there to debate? Nothing
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:20 p.m.

    To Roger Carrier,

    You said, "I dont see for the life of me how gay marriage hurts anybodys marriage."

    That's understandable. If you can't see how changing the definition of marriage affects society and the fundamental institutions of marriage and the family, then fine, but you are the last person who should then speak for anybody else's marriage. No offense.

    You also say, "If a church or person doesnt believe in it, then fine. But dont pass laws against it."

    If marriage is defined as between a man and a woman, being gay does not exclude anyone from that definition. No law has been passed against gays marrying. But with how much debate there is on the matter, apparently an ammendment clearly defining the law was very necessary.

    It is done. This is yesterday's news. It just proved to be a matter of democracy running its course. Now that it has, it is clear that the decision upholds marriage as being between a man and a woman, without discriminating against any civil rights. Other unions may still lobby for benefits that government may have attached to marriage (But government benefits don't define marriage, either).

  • Just a Dad
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:15 p.m.

    Correction: Those that voted for Prop 8.

  • Just a Dad
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:11 p.m.

    LDS Father of four young children in Utah. Gays have the right to marry who they want, just like the rest of us. Religion has no right in Voting stations. Some of you that voted against Prop 8 will be denying some of your own childrens gay rights, you just dont know it yet. And when it happens, you just may regret it.
    Besides, our falling economy, housing market, crashing dollar, loss of jobs, and much more crisis should be a greater issue than just another American way of trampling over peoples rights. Let the gay community be. Lets worry about our country and our own problems in our OWN homes. And nothing more.

  • The judges in California
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:06 p.m.

    The ignorance continues ---

    To those who label the Supreme Court of California to be liberal judges, read up... These were the judges who overturned Prop 22.

    Ronald M. George, (since 1991), appointed by Gov. Wilson; elevated to Chief Justice in 1996
    Marvin R. Baxter, (since 1991), Associate Justice; appointed by Gov. Deukmejian
    Ming W. Chin, (since 1996), Associate Justice; appointed by Gov. Wilson
    Carol A. Corrigan, (since 2006), Associate Justice; appointed by Gov. Schwarzenegger
    Joyce L. Kennard, (since 1989), Associate Justice; appointed by Gov. Deukmejian
    Carlos R. Moreno, (since 2001), Associate Justice; appointed by Gov. Davis
    Kathryn Mickle Werdegar, (since 1994), Associate Justice; appointed by Gov. Wilson

    Makeup of the Court
    Six justices were appointed by Republicans (George, Kennard, Baxter, Werdegar, Chin, and Corrigan) and one by a Democrat, Moreno.

    - - - -

    To LDS who feel singled-out and Mormon-bashed --- (sorry) --- in the same vein that you feel the democratic process is in place by voting ---

    * marching is also democratic
    * taking the issue to court is also democratic
    * voicing our opinion is also democratic
    * calling those who sponsored the issue in a free debate is also democratic

  • what a laugh
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:59 p.m.

    I live in No gay marriage California. On the front page of today's paper there was a color picutre of the protesters at the Oakland Temple. It said that their protest closed nearby offramps for THREE AND A HALF HOURS. How stupid can they be thinking that ticking off thousands of people who can't get from point a to point b because of their childish ranting and ravings, is going to help their cause. Last night on the news it said a different protest also disrupted traffic. Keep it up. We are not threatened by you. We KNOW who is on our side.

  • immaturity
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:53 p.m.

    How many of you straight people went through a phase when you were in elementary school and hated the opposite sex? Normal people grow up and mature and outgrow that mindset. How many of you threw a temper tantrum when you were small because someone said "no" to you? This just proves how immature the gay population is, both sexually and emotionally.

  • Civics Lesson 101
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:49 p.m.

    "FaithNoMo | 11:33 a.m. Nov. 10, 2008
    It's great to see that the church is being called out on the issue. Don't forget that our government is set up to protect the MINORITY. You love the majority when you are part of it."

    Hey, "FaithNoMo", no, in fact our gov't is NOT set up to only "protect the minority". If it did that then the voice of the majority would mean nothing.

    Hmmmm....strangely like the pro-gay crowd is trying to do now. But!, I digress...

    So what IS the government established to do? They are to enact laws as voiced by the MAJORITY of the people with the Constitution being our guide and, no, nowhere in the Constitution does it say that allowing homosexual marriage is a God-given right.

  • suzyk
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:46 p.m.

    to Michelle...very good and an astute observation. Unfortunately I doubt any will listen. You have to feel sorry for these angry and misguided men and women. When they chose to be gay or homosexual they chose the consequences..that's the way it is. Their lifestyle is not acceptable by the majority and if they want to continue to live that way they may have to go back to their closets. We don't want to see or hear about their escapades. It is nauseating and we want to protect our families from this type of behavior. We don't hate them, we just do not accept their choice to live against God's will. Hopefully they will simmer down and we can start living our lives once again without fear or their rage and behavior. That is my prayer.

  • Laura
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:40 p.m.

    I'm actually glad that this is happening because it is opening many eyes that have been blind.

  • Shilo
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:36 p.m.

    To Heidi in Wonderland,

    You said, "Gays already are currently allowed in the congregrations. Sexual sin -- be it gay or straight -- will never be acceptable. The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive."

    If sinners are not allowed in the congregations, there will be NO CONGREGATION!

    I am a sinner. I don't struggle with a sexual sin, but the sins I do struggle with are no less sins. I am in the congregation.

    The Church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints!

    Gays are welcome in the congregation. So are adulterers. Liars are also welcome. So are thieves. Even the accessory to murder, Saul of Tarsus, was welcomed in the ancient congregations! Jesus ate and drank and socialized with such people. The Pharisees condemned Him for keeping bad company. He replied that His ministry is specifically to the sick and the lost sheep of the house of Isreal: the sinners--the sexual sinners, liars, theives, prostitutes, hypocrites, proud, arrogant, adulterers, fornicators, and even blasphemers!

    ALL sinners are welcome into the congregation. ALL! Anyone who tells you otherwise is NOT teaching Jesus' doctrine!

  • Why Marriage?
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:31 p.m.

    Is it because domestic partnership doesn't sound as good as "Marriage?" All "rights" are equal under the domestic partnership laws of 2003, except you can't go get a marriage license. Do you need it to define your "love?" Or do you need it to rationalize or mainstream your lifestyle? The lds church has NEVER come out against domestic partnerships or the rights of gays UNTIL they wanted to redefine Marriage...tolerance? We've been doing it all along.

  • California Father
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:29 p.m.

    All the protests in the world won't change the truth. Homosexuality is sinful, but it is also unnatural, illegitimate and destructive to society. God fearing people everywhere need to stand up for the truth. This conflict will continue until the second coming. Making gay marriage legal is one more step in forcing the gay agenda on the rest of us. One of the arguments for passing prop. 8 was that it would lead to conflicts and a loss of religious freedom. They called this a big lie! So it passes and what do they do? Protest at churches thereby attempting to restrict our religious freedom of attending church! Our way of life is at stake, and our freedom to live our religion and teach our children correct principles. No matter how hard they try, homosexuality will NEVER be natural, legitimate and accepted by God.

  • Mormons Rule?
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:24 p.m.

    So what about Florida, Arizona,& Arkansas? Florida and Arizona stopped gay marriage. Arkansas banned them from adopting. I bet it was all the mormons in Arkansas, dirty little rats.

    Fact: The majority (as witnessed in the recent and past elections) are against gay marriage.

    Sure the mormons helped pass Prop 8, but people still had to go to the booths and vote and they did. NONE of the ads were deceiving or lies, let's just say they were for the sake of arguement they were, welcome to the political arena.

    California Native, California Livin'

  • If Pro-gays Were Smart
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:23 p.m.

    If the anti-8 crowd were smart, you'd shut up and stop protesting.


    You "claim" you only want respect and to be treated as equals and that was why you wanted to be able to legally marry. "Treat us like you treat others!", you screamed.

    How can you not see that after the citizens of CA voted "no" against gay marriage earlier (in 2002?) and then again "no" last week that your friends and neighbors legally, democratically voted against your wishes and now the way to garner respect is to quietly, respectfully abide by the wishes of the MAJORITY of your friends and neighbors?

    It's like arguing with my wife; when I'm wrong, the more I argue the more respect she loses for me. How can she not?

    And so it is with you...

  • The animals are smarter
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:22 p.m.

    It is in the Bible. God put Adam a(MAN) and Eve a (WOMAN) together. The animals get it and they don't even read. What is natural is for a man and a woman to marry. Come up with something else if you want to that can tie you together, this concept is already taken. People who live together (without a commitment of marriage) don't protest they should have the same rights as married couples. I am sure there is something you could think of with all that energy you are putting into fighting for whatever you think are your rights.

  • Bob Th.
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    I read out church's information on being singled out by gays, and read world newspapers about the same. I think we're getting what we deserve.

  • Jill
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:18 p.m.

    Wow, I cancelled my family's holiday vaction to Salt Lake. We lost some deposits. But I don't want my kids to be around that kind of narrow influence. The boys have a lesbian aunt who they love and respect. We're going to some other place, out of respect for her, too.

  • @facts straight
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:18 p.m.

    You know up tell know I have defended the LDS church and there right to engage in the process but I am sick of the excuses, how cares those that did so that where not LDS are just as wrong but it does not justify the LDS voters behaviors. So say what? you want call me a hater you know what I dont care anymore, I am tired of defending you and your hateful self righteous behaviors, so if that makes me a hater, how cares? you destory peoples lifes sorry but thats hate. deal with it.

  • Jeffrey
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:16 p.m.

    Several of my companions were gay. Im not. I accepted them, they never hit on me. I like to live and let live. Im sure they'll be gay all their lives....they told me they never liked women.

  • Sue
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:15 p.m.

    Im gay. Im mormon. My family loves me.

  • Laura
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:14 p.m.

    OK, after some research I found out that the Supreme Court undermined the voters in Massachusetts by voting 4-1 in favor of gay marriage.
    WE need to be voting against the Supreme Court by having so much power when the people have already spoken!!

  • Jedediah
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:14 p.m.

    Poor picked on're so innocent. Just like the wolf crying out after trying to eat little Red. Get your hands off my rights. Wow, looking over slc papers and have to dig deep cause anything gay or anti mormon is hid a thousand pages back...nice whitewash you all do there.

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:06 p.m.

    Good Times in Salt Lake wrote:
    I have spend the last 20 min reading hundreds of comments for and against prop 8...I agree whats done is done...and how is this comparable to the Civil Rights movement back in the day.. Last time I checked I didnt get to choose to be born an African American...Being gay isnt a race of people..or maybe I'm just a silly Christian

    Peace and Love

    Would you please clarify what you meant about gays? Nobody is saying that gays are a different race, but the two groups with the longest history of discrimination are people with darker skin and gays.

    If you are a Christian, please don't link your religion to a political issue. You can be against gay marriage but don't force your opinion down the the throats of others.

    Sorry if I misinterpreted your letter. Thanks, Roger, a straight male, married 40 years. Gay marriage is no threat to my married. Is the marriage of Bob and Jim off in Arbuckle, California really going to destroy the country?

  • Fred Vader
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    For those LDS members who have, and will continue to rail against the prophets, please go read Helaman 13:25-26, 38 and see what the Prophet Samuel had to say regarding your behavior.

    Enough said.

  • 30 down and 20 to go
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:53 p.m.

    30 states have marriage protection with 20 left to go. I hope the next election in 2 years we see more states following California, Arizona and Florida in passing marriage protection. States need to realize that the only way they will have true protection against the homosexual onslaught on marriage is to follow the democratic process and pass laws. This is "peaceful" war with no compromise. Either they win or we "the people" win. The people of California voted and won marriage protection and now the opposition once again is attempting to erase democracy and silence the voice of the people by going to the liberal courts. This will be an on-going fight from state to state until marriage and moral values for society are protected across the entire nation.

  • Laura
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:42 p.m.

    I can just imagine the families in Massachusetts wishing they had a bigger LDS population in their state and regretting how much GUFF they gave the church for building the Boston temple!
    Now their kids are being taught homosexuality in school.
    The Catholic Adoption Agency had to shut their doors in Boston because they lost their funding and tax exemptions for refusing to allow gay adoptions.

  • Hows it affect you?
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:39 p.m.

    I bet that most people reading this have never met someone who is gay. To leave peoples rights up to the vote of people who have probably never talked with or met anyone who is in the gay community is horrible. Does anyone else see this.

    And for all those people who think being gay is a choice... How do you know? are you gay? Even though I am gonna say that it is not a choice you will not believe me. Growing up through school was hell, I lost a lot of "friends" who later realized I was no threat to their lives.

    I tried so hard to be like everybody else.

    And just so you know... I was raised LDS. I was baptized LDS and held the priesthood. I really liked going to church, until one day my bishop told me I was an abomination and had to be fixed. How would that make you feel? Would you still "CHOOSE" to be gay after that?

    I just hope that some of you could get a better understanding of what its really like before voting on their lives. Have you been affected by any of the 16000 gay marriages?

  • Shpank
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:36 p.m.

    I laugh at the No on 8 argument, "I don't think God descriminates." So let's say I'm a murderer, given your logic, he doesn't discriminate against me and wants me to continue on right, cause he doesn't discriminate... :| murderer, non murderer, we're all the same right?...

  • I don't like to admit it
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:30 p.m.

    But I have to side with the church and not just this church because aren't we all suppose to stand and do what we think is right..these guys should be no more stereotyped or generalized than what the protestors are doing to the members. Many lds members died along with members of other denominations so that the sacred vote could be used. There are good people here who are using that sacred right to vote..the protestors had the same opportunity to raise funds for the vote. The vote worked for a form of non-violent protest in itself as to which way the people wanted things to be ran in the election of the first african american and i am sure there were some members who voted that way with their sacred have a right to protest but no right to intimidate!

  • Southerner
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:27 p.m.

    Gay people protesting against people in Utah for how people in California voted. I get it now. It makes perfect sense.

  • Facts vs Myths
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:24 p.m.

    In Mass. children are read fairy tales about princes marrying princes in public schools

    Parents by law CANNOT opt out of gay lifestyle instruction nor are they notified ahead of time.

    Catholic charities in Mass no longer place children for adoption because the gov't said they MUST place children in gay marriages. Rather than betray their morals they will adopt no children to anyone.

    This demonstrates the demands of a few usurping the rights of many.

    Gays in CA still have the same rights as married couples. Read it for yourself CA Family code 207.5 THIS PROTECTION WAS NOT TAKEN AWAY UNDER PROP 8.

    During the few weeks gay marriage was legal, a first grade class was taken on a field trip to a lesbian wedding. Children were being indoctrinated and it didn't take long at all until it began.

  • Kelly in Cali
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:16 p.m.

    What people fail to understand is that this issue is not about gay relationships. We know they're not going anywhere.

    If gay marriage was legal, it would be required to be taught to very young kids as part of diversity.

    Can you imagine a 9yearold boy who doesn't like girls at that age, being brainwashed and told he is gay because he doesn't like girls?

    First graders in SF WERE taken to a lesbian wedding. They should be in class learning to read and write instead of being indoctrinated.

    Gays in CA still have all the rights of a married couple. READ CALIFORNIA FAMILY CODE 297.5 Those rights were not taken away. Just the right to call it a marriage and require it to be taught in schools.

    The people in CA have TWICE said NO to gay marriage. WHAT PART OF NO DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

  • Heidi in Wonderland
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:57 a.m.

    Yo, Heidi,

    Sadly, your protests likely will have an eventual impact. I have no doubt that gay marriage will be made legal within the next 10 years -- if not much sooner. But this is nothing to brag about. Morality continues to erode the ideals of what this great country was founded on. The ideals of the majority are dismissed to offset the risk of offending the minority -- it doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong or whether the country as a whole benefits.

    At least know a little bit about what you are criticizing. African Americans were always allowed in the congregations and allowed to be members. The prophecy always was that they would one day receive the priesthood. That day arrived.

    Gays already are currently allowed in the congregrations. Sexual sin -- be it gay or straight -- will never be acceptable. The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive.

  • Interesting
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:54 a.m.

    I find it interesting to see an American Flag flying in the picture. Basically you are protesting one groups rights to voice an opinion because it is different than yours. So what I am really saying is put down the American Flag if you can not and will not tolerate others rights as Americans. Your right as an American is strictly Civil that does not include Marriage.

  • Facts Straight
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:48 a.m.

    Hey all you Mormon haters out there did you realize that of all the people that voted For Prop 8 not all of them were mormons. Interesting I guess it is not just the LDS people that oppose gay marriage. I love how whent he public votes and this is twice now in california the people that lose try everything they can to win. Sorry people you lost, now get over it and try again sometime down the road when again it will be voted that Marriage is between a Man and a Woman. Keep crying and keep protesting cause everything you do is not going to change the fact that the sanctity of marriage is between a Man and a Woman!

  • Not Suprised
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:41 a.m.

    Religous Bigotry. Please don't be fooled into thinking it is anything else. Do they really believe in the time honored tradition of marriage and want to be included in it? This is anti religion, and being able to project there agenda on us.

  • FaithNoMo
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:33 a.m.

    It's great to see that the church is being called out on the issue.
    Don't forget that our government is set up to protect the MINORITY. You love the majority when you are part of it.

  • A democratic process
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:28 a.m.

    The Mormons passed this proposition in California. I didn't know Mormons had the majority vote in California. How come it is a blue state? It was just wrong the Mormons sided with the majority on this issue. How dare them have an opinion on this issue or take action at all, the Gay community has never express any opinion or taken any action against Mormons.

  • one thing's for certain
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:17 a.m.

    you guys will never tire of patting yourself on the back.

  • Love to You All
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:14 a.m.

    When struggling to understand this whole situation,and believe me, it's been a struggle, a good friend of mine told me: "It comes down to this, do you believe that the prophet receives revelation? He sees the bigger picture, so we must have faith and hope that there is a reason we have been called upon to take a stand on this issue."

    For those of you who are LDS and struggling to accept the stand our leaders have taken, take a moment to search the scriptures and your soul for answers. We do not always understand why we are called upon to do certain things, but need to move forward in faith with the understanding that the Lord's purpose will be revealed to us in His time.

    Surely, the Lord could resolve this issue in the twinkling of an eye if he so desired. There must be a reason why we are all being called out of our comfort zones to action.

    I do realize that feelings are raw on both sides of this issue (I have a gay uncle myself), but spewing forth hate and condescension toward one another will not solve anything.

  • So tell me again
    Nov. 10, 2008 11:11 a.m.

    how the LDS church with 800,000 members in California, of which only half voted. Convinced 5.5 million voters of all faiths to vote in favor of Prop 8. I think the angry gays are looking for a scapegoat to protest against and picked the LDS church for some reason. They should march on their own state to other religious, or non-religous groups who voted for Prop 8. The numbers just don't add up, and either does the financial support. I guess the majority of Californians see the family unit as a man+woman=children. That's also gods plan for us too.

  • Urgent
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:54 a.m.

    The Gay agenda groups is a mean spirited operation, they use the court system in hopes they can get a liberal judge to force law on the majority. This kind of underlying guilt can make for ugly and cowardly acts towards people that morally don't justify this behavior. People in this world make choices, we cannot spin right and wrong just to make our choices easier on the soul.

  • MMM
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:34 a.m.


    MARRIAGE....MMM...NOPE...Marriage was establish BY GOD, NOT THE HUMAN KIND!!! MUST BE MAN AND WOMAN...IF YOU DONT LIKE IT...TALK TO GOD!!!You'll have an answer!!!

  • Greg
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:22 a.m.

    Yawn. This is so lame. The voice of the people in CA has been heard. UT had very little to do with this mess. Let's stop crying and do some good in the world. Go volunteer at a charity and forget about yourself. You might realize your life is not so bad.

  • The downfall of the LDS Church?
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:14 a.m.

    Really? I don't think so. A few members will leave, I'm sure, and those of us that stick with the church over the next century or so will be put through the refiner's fire, but in the end, we'll be much stronger for it.

    Don't forget that your prophecy about the church crumbling goes directly against a revelation by a prophet of God:

    "Every previous gospel dispensation has drifted away into apostasy, but ours will not. Some individuals will fall away; but the kingdom of God will remain intact to welcome the return of its head-even Jesus Christ. While our generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the Earth by flood, there is a major difference this time. God has saved for the final inning some of His strongest children, who will help bear off the kingdom triumphantly." -Ezra T. Benson

    Which prophecy do you think will come true, the one made in the name of God, or the one made in the name of homosexual marriage? My bet's on President Benson, personally.

  • Ensign
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:12 a.m.

    The church stood up for morality. The world riots against it. This divide will become greater and greater. Love the sinner, not the sin.

  • Lightandliberty
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:04 a.m.

    This is great! Finally, we may see some who have been on the sidelines of the church have to take a stand. If they stand up for what is right, liberty prevails in their life; if they stand up for what is wrong, a loss of liberty occurs, including perhaps their dissafection from church! More freedom and less liberty! Battle lines are being drawn! Doing evil in the name of liberty is the ultimate irony!

  • Marie Devine
    Nov. 10, 2008 10:02 a.m.

    "Blesssed are you when you are persecuted for my word" Let us all remember there are more sins to fight against. We all need cleansing.

    Revelation 21:7, 8
    7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son
    8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Revelation 22:12-16
    12 And behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without (outside) are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Lies: novels, movies, DVD's, television, anti-God laws, etc..
    To have power to overcome wickedness, we must be righteous and chose leaders who want God's ways.

  • Good Times in SLC
    Nov. 10, 2008 9:58 a.m.

    I have spend the last 20 min reading hundreds of comments for and against prop 8...I agree whats done is done...and how is this comparable to the Civil Rights movement back in the day.. Last time I checked I didnt get to choose to be born an African American...Being gay isnt a race of people..or maybe I'm just a silly Christian

    Peace and Love

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 10, 2008 9:58 a.m.

    I am a straight male, age 62, married 40 years, and I dont see for the life of me how gay marriage hurts anybodys marriage.

    If a church or person doesnt believe in it, then fine. But dont pass laws against it.

    The anti-gay marriage people have hyped their cause to preposterous levels. Does the marriage of Jim and Bob of Arbuckle City, California at the Colusa Country Courthouse really have any affect on anybodys marriage? By preventing Jim and Bob from getting married, we are saving the family? Come on, get real.

    IMPORTANT: I don't believe the LDS Church is a cult, and my disagreement is not with Mormon theology. I disagree with the mean-spirited policy and the funding of a crusade off in California. Some Mormons that I've known have been salt-of-the-earth people. I've lived in Utah my whole life.

  • Arthur
    Nov. 10, 2008 9:56 a.m.

    If a few judges want to deem the current definition marriage unconstitutionally biased again and again till it sticks, fine by me.

    Apparently the country went the wrong way with the civil rights movement. We need those judges to redefine the unconstitutionally biased term "white" to include african americans, hispanics, asians, and indians. Apparently there is no such thing as seperate but equal. I want to be white!!!

  • Not surprised, but concerned
    Nov. 10, 2008 9:35 a.m.

    it was nice to see the people of California stand up for traditional moral values that made America great and can keep America from falling further into societal decay. The democratic process is open to all, but it is sad the way some people respond. Shooting out windows at an LDS church. It appears mob mentality is the response of those who disagree with the outcome, and probably giving a lot of peaceful protestors a bad name.

  • Robert
    Nov. 10, 2008 9:25 a.m.

    Thank you California for passing Prop 8. I was thrilled to be able to send some money to support Yes on Prop 8. And thatnk you to all the others who supported this in any way they could. The intolerance shown by a small activist group of the LGBT community does a disserve to those who I know to be Gay & Lesbian. If they would put their effots to promoting the real needs they have of property rights, visitation rights etc that they say they want for themselves and their partner, without hijacking Marriage, they would be getting what they want and need. This radical activism does just what Mr. Whipple says the LDS church did for his cause. It encourages me to be more actively supportive of protecting marriage. Expect me to double my contribution the next time it is needed.

  • Re: Anonymous | 1:20 a.m.
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:55 a.m.

    "I am embarrassed to be called not only a Christian and a Mormon. There will come a day when the Savior returns, and I promise you he will not be coming to the LDS conference Center..."

    You're right. He'll first appear at Adam-Ondi-Ahman, and then He'll descend down to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. I don't imagine the LDS Conference Center is anywhere near the top of the list, though I'm sure He'll visit there someday. =)

  • oh man
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:54 a.m.

    you mormons are so self centered. I'm sorry that you feel like if gay marrige is allowed, your marrige will be viewed as "less valid" but those are YOUR VIEWS. If you believe that god meant for marrige to only be between a man an a women, then good for you, but obviously gays don't believe in that, so why are YOUR VIEWS, changing the way that they live their lives. It's fine if a person doesn't believe in gay marrige, but that is thier views and it shouldn't be changing the way other people live.

  • Shecky Idaho Mormon
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:45 a.m.

    What is up with Rocky Anderson? After the wimpy way he waved the flag during the Olympics...why would you even want him representing anybody? What a 'ditz'. Do any of you protesters really think you'll change anyone's mind? I am amazed at the hypocrisy coming from the gay community. You are only 'for something' if everybody else agrees with you. They wanted Prop 8 on the ballot, so you could all vote in favor of it. Oh, but got defeated, and now you are just a bunch of whiners. I wanted McCain over Obama. Obama won. I guess I will deal with it and go on with my life. Why can't you pathetic cry babies do the same thing.

  • Roger E. Carrier
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:29 a.m.

    I am a straight male, age 62, married 40 years, lifelong Utah resident, and I dont see for the life of me how gay marriage hurts anybodys marriage.

    If a church or person doesnt believe in it, then fine. But dont pass laws against it.

    We have dozens of Utah families living in homeless shelters, and that money spent in California could have changed their lives. Doesnt anyone see the contradiction with Christian family values?

    The anti-gay marriage people have hyped their cause to preposterous levels. Does the marriage of Jim and Bob of Arbuckle City, California at the Colusa Country Courthouse really have any affect on anybodys marriage? By preventing Jim and Bob from getting married, are we really saving the family? Come on, get real.

    IMPORTANT: I don't believe the LDS Church is a cult or not a Christian religion. My disagreement is not with Mormon theology but with the mean-spirited policy and the funding of a POLITICAL crusade off in California.

    Some Mormons that I've known have been salt-of-the-earth people. I've lived in Utah my entire life and love many tithe-paying Mormons.

  • Re: Anonymous 1:20 a.m.
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:25 a.m.

    Sorry, but your logic makes no sense whatsoever.

    But thanks for proving the scriptures and all the prophecies about the last days correct. Even the very elect will be deceived.

    But those who follow the prophet will not be deceived. See, you will never go wrong following the prophet. It comes down to whether you believe the president of the church is a prophet. If you don't -- fine. But why be a member of a church where you don't believe one of the most basic tenets of its beliefs?

    What good is it to be a member of a church whose teachings are dictated and swayed by public opinion?

    Christ did minister to all. But he also said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." He said the healthy need not a physician -- but when he "hung out with" them, as you say, he didn't condone their behavior. He taught them the right way to live. He told them to "go your way and sin no more." And when he taught contrary to the prevailing thought of the day, he was killed.

    Christ did love the sinner -- but never did condone the sin. Ever.

  • Heidi
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:23 a.m.

    The LDS church gave $22 million to the efforts to Pass Prop 8.........and you wonder why they are being singled out? Pa-lease!!

    This protest WILL make an impact. There will be protests, like this one in almost all 50 states in the next month. With enough interest and momentum, the choice will go to the supreme court and Gay Marriage will be legal. And let me guess, those "prophets" you follow will claim God has spoken to them and allow Gays into their congregation just as with African Americans...? What a bunch of BS!

  • momof4
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:20 a.m.

    As a mother of young children, I am NOT willing to let my innocent children be indoctrinated by people who thumb their noses at God's law. God made Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve. "We, The People" refuse to let you hijack the term "marriage" for your sick lifestyle. You have the same rights under a different name. Quit whining! Vandalism doesn't give you more credibility, it just shows your true colors. Oh, and by the have not lost rights because gay people NEVER had the right to be married. FYI, LDS people out there who voted No on Prop will be held accountable for your actions by a higher law!

  • no more
    Nov. 10, 2008 8:05 a.m.

    no more G and L. California voted. The foundng fathers spoke of. This country was no intended to be a play ground for the travesty of G and L.

  • True Colors
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:57 a.m.

    We are now seeing the true colors of the gay rights movement. They vandalise church property and harass people as they go to church. And they do this becuase they didn't get their way. If prop 8 would have been defeated do you think LDS people would have been keying cars, breaking windows and picketing gay rights people? I don't think so. Prop 8 was voted on and passed by the voters. I guess this doesn't count if you are gay. Gay people should have special rights and not have to pay attention to what the majority wants. I didn't vote for Obama. Gee maybe I should start breaking the windows of homes that belong to Obama supporters. Maybe I should try and get some activist judges to put McCain in the whitehouse. Who cares what people voted for? Come on people. What is a demacracy good for if what the people vote for is not upheld? I'm afraid gays are going to get their way no matter what the people want. The system is too corrupt to work anymore.

  • stop already
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:54 a.m.

    What an absurd amount of time wasted on such none christen like behaviors, if you are tired of people viewing the LDS church so negatively then stop posting on these ridiculous threads and get out and help your community and your neighbors regardless of their religion or sexual orientation. You do not have to approve of every part of a persons life to show them a little christen love.

  • MMM
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:45 a.m.

    Civil Rights: OK, everyone have the right to be supported by the goberment as human being...BUT "Religious Marriage" IF YOU REALLY believe in God and want to live by GOD'S LAW, not changing for your convenience, Dont fight agaisnt THAT LAW, God doesnt change, He said Man and Woman, THAT IS NOT MY LAW, OS GOD'S LAW!!!

  • Sifting
    Nov. 10, 2008 7:23 a.m.

    Judging by a lot of these comments there is going to be some serious sifting of the wheat from the tares going on in the LDS church. I'm shocked at how many LDS members don't comprehend their own religion. It seems a lot of the members come because of the social aspect. These people are not going to last.

  • Great-should be good for tourism
    Nov. 10, 2008 6:25 a.m.

    Anything that brings money into the state's economy is GREAT!

    Protest the Mormons, buy gas, buy food, stay at hotels, go shopping, protest some more, stay long enough ski, spend more money...

    Is doesn't matter why they're here, they're here! Booya! Ka-ching! Thanks for the money (and by the way, your protests aren't going to change the minds of the Mormon old men).

  • NB OC, CA
    Nov. 10, 2008 6:15 a.m.

    I like how people are accusing the Church of lying to get Prop 8 passed when the Church never produced any materials in support of Prop 8. The only thing SLC ever put on paper was a letter to members asking them to support Prop 8, and the reasoning given was that this was a moral issue. Any ads providing other reasoning were produced by the various coalitions and were funded only in part by individual members, not SLC.

  • Jake
    Nov. 10, 2008 6:15 a.m.

    This is not about discrimination. This is about a distinction among different behaviors. All laws distinguish among different kinds of behavior. All laws are based on what people believe to be good versus what they believe to be wrong. All laws have a moral foundation.

    25 Therefore, choose you by the voice of this people, judges, that ye may be judged according to the laws which have been given you by our fathers, which are correct, and which were given them by the hand of the Lord.
    26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your lawto do your business by the voice of the people.
    27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

  • Anonymous 1:20 AM
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:47 a.m.

    Also, one other thing to you. You don't think the church is well aware of all the problems on the earth and uses its resources to help others?? The church spends untold millions of dollars each year in worthy causes to help other people. And where does that money come from? From the members of the church who faithfully pay their tithes and offerings.

    You are embarrased to be called a Christian and a Mormon? And all because the church felt like it was right and proper to define holy matimony as being between a man and a woman. Unbelievable.

  • just a person
    Nov. 10, 2008 5:07 a.m.

    I will continue to fight against that, wich is contrary to the teachings of jesus christ. Homosexuality is not condoned in any way or form in the scriptures. If that doesn't sway their thinking and they just desire gay marriage because straight people can get married,then talk to my two and four year old children. Becuse you can't always get what you want.Beside that point marriage is ordained of God. It states that a man will take a women and there become one before God.It is plainely stated. If you decide to through God out of the picture and make it fit your requirements then thankyou for fullfiling a prophecy and makeing the second comeing, come a bit sooner.

  • Friend of Plain & Simple
    Nov. 10, 2008 2:22 a.m.

    Let's take the post beginnint "We have genocide..." and rewrite it from the other side, just for kicks:

    We have genocide in Darfur, we have AIDS ravaging Africa, Breast Cancer is killing millions, ETC.... but of course the most important LIBERAL AGENDA is to REDEFINE MARRIAGE SO two guys down the street CAN PRETEND TO BE married, so let's throw all of our money time and effort to defeating the WILL OF THE CALIFORNIA VOTERS.

    When did we as RADICAL GAYS become the DICTATORS OF SOCIAL POLICY? How in the last 30 years has the GAY COMMUNITY gone from the CLOSETED cult to the big bully on the playground?

    You can't spout love, and support it with hate and lies.

    I am embarrassed to be called a HOMOSEXUAL. There will come a day when the Savior returns, and I promise you he will not be coming to the GLBT HEADQUARTERS... Read the scriptures and figure out who Christ ministered to, AND HOW HE TOLD SINNERS TO SIN NO MORE.

    It wasn't with the Pharisees who took upon themselves the ROLE of God as the Judge, Jury, and moral authority. The GAYS have taken on this modern day ROLE!

    Touche, eh?

  • maddmob
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:24 a.m.

    When prop 8 went your way (homosexual) I am not clear where the LDS people had there 4000 person march and where did we vandalize, whine and moan?Oh ya, we didn't...We took our rights based upon our correct beliefs and VOTED to not have our families morally shredded.The family,by the way,is the most fundemental structure since the beginning of time and along come the homosexuals in 2008 and think "Well,we will just change the most natural thing God has given us,no big deal."Pretty sure God didn't give girl on girl or guy on guy the right to procreate,when you can change that call me and I'll switch to your side.And what in the world does taxes have to do with marriage?It's fishing.Do as you want but when you attack the most sacred gift known to man,my family,we are not going to hell without a fight.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:20 a.m.

    We have genocide in Darfur, we have AIDS ravaging Africa, Breast Cancer is killing millions, Hunger, homeless on the streets, Iraq and Afghan War vets not getting treatment for PTSD and other related injuries.... but of course the most dangerous thing to humanity is two guys down the street getting married, so let's throw all of our money time and effort to defeating these liberal judges.

    When did we as Christians and LDS become the Pharisees? How in the last 100 years has the LDS church gone from the hunted minority cult to the big bully on the playground.

    You can't spout love, and support it with hate and lies.

    I am embarrassed to be called not only a Christian and a Mormon. There will come a day when the Savior returns, and I promise you he will not be coming to the LDS conference Center... Read the scriptures and figure out who Christ ministered to, and "Hung out with"

    It wasn't with the Pharisees who took upon themselves the roll of God as the Judge, Jury, and moral authority. The Church has taken on this modern day roll!

  • Democracy in California
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:10 a.m.

    The majority of California voters went to the polls to excerise their civic duty, outcome...the majority voted for passage of proposition 8. Though the Gay and Lesbian say they are disappointed and hurt it appears they cannot acccept the truth. Like an upset adolesent they turn to name calling,lies and causing civil unrest on city streets and hiways in So. California. On local news one gay man commented "We will have thousands of transvesites here every night at the Morman Temple if needed". It is interesting to note the protesters have not the courage to protest at the doors or gates of the AME church in South Central L.A.. The Gay community is rapidly losing respect and supporters by the thousands as result of their chilish actions since the election on Tuesday.

  • Jonathan
    Nov. 10, 2008 1:10 a.m.

    I've seen 5 year olds who don't get their way act the same way........

  • LoveToAll
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:42 a.m.

    It's weird to me that people are treating "gay's" as if they are not regular human beings but rather a "special" group of people that need "special" rights for their immorality. Yes, we are to love all of God's children but that doesn't mean that we have to accept or condone their lifestyle. Parents don't need to choose their religion over their children's behavior. The Mormon religion teaches parents to love their Lost Children, to pray, support and help their children come back to our Savior, Jesus Christ and our Father in Heaven. It's not a Crytal Ball that is used to see that it's the best thing for families, it called SPIRITUALITY!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:41 a.m.

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

    This is how majority rule has ruined American.

  • Utahn living in New York
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:23 a.m.

    It's interesting to watch this debate from outside of Utah and California. As I read this comment thread, I keep thinking. Do my fellow Mormons not see the ultimate irony and hypocrisy of the Church's support for Prop8? Just over a 100 years ago, we were the ones fighting for the acceptance of the "Mormon" definition of marriage (e.g. one many/many wives). I find it horribly ironic that in 100 years we have gone from being the persecuted to being the persecutors. It's very disheartening to see that our leaders would prefer us to devote our time and energy in order to marginalize 10% of the population. With all of the travesties, poverty, and war in this world, you would think the First Presidency would their energy focused on these issues. And that 6 point "Commentary on what would happened if Prop8 fails" that was passed around in chruch really made me angry. As a lawyer, I found that the reasoning in it was totally deceptive and misleading. Going down that road only opened the church to more criticism.

  • To LDS in CA-"spewing"?
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:17 a.m.

    I was born and raised in CA. I lived in a suburb of LA for 30 years. I have friends of every race, religion, and sexual preference. The only "spewing" going on is by those who oppose defining marriage between 1 man and 1 woman. I have friends whose home was vandalized because of a pro prop 8 sign in their yard. Moreover, their sidewalk and driveway sported foul bigoted lanuage. The police told them the only remedy or recourse they had was to take the sign out of their yard! I didn't see anything in the media about THAT one. Now the property of a sacred religious place has been damaged by those who did it in the name of "acceptance" and "love" for all? Hmmm...not so loving huh? Of course you love your son. Of course you want him to be happy. No one wants to deny that to him. But please, don't call quietly defending ones moral and religious beliefs "spewing". The only thing being denied to homosexuals is the religious legitimization of an act that has boldly been delcared by the Maker of us all to be out of harmony with His plan.

  • Prop 8 Supporter
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:08 a.m.

    The liberals threw a ton of cash at this (more than the Yes campaign). They have screamed for democratic process. When that doesn't suit them, they have a tantrum. LDS folks accounted for 2% of the Yes vote... Why didn't these people scream a week ago when there was a vote to be had?

  • Dan
    Nov. 10, 2008 12:04 a.m.

    I do think the church is awesome for supporting this... however it dont mean a thing if the people of california dont actually vote for it. so dont hate the church hate the majority of california. well on second thought dont hate anyone just become strait and you'll find you like it

  • Do you have a crystal ball
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:58 p.m.

    How does the Chruch know that it is doing what is best for families. It seems to me that they are asking many parents to choose between the children who were born to them and who they have loved forever, and the religion. To those of you with high and mighty opinions about the happiness of families and what is best for them....perhaps your God did not deem you worthy to be given such a beautiful child in these so called "latter days".

  • Lamanite Man
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:33 p.m.

    Being gay is a choice of lifestyle. In the bible, this is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. The LDS church is doing what is best for its families and in keeping family traditions. The church is doing what is best for our children and for our future.

  • Prop 8 passed
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:25 p.m.

    Nothing more to say than that. The legal process will work its way back through the courts, but the voice of the people of California twice have ruled that marriage is between a man and a woman. Guaranteed if the courts overturn this yet again, eventually nothing will be deemed illegal. Those in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage claim it is ridiculous to claim that the slippery slope to legalizing pedophilia (child brides), polygamy (multiple spouses), and bestiality begins with same-sex marriage, but that is the logical conclusion if the courts deem you cannot "discriminate" based on sexual preference even with constitutional verbiage. How can you think the FLDS could not claim polygamy and child brides are not to be discriminated against if same-sex marriage is legalized? No one is condoning any type of government interference in the bedroom or lives of same-sex practitioners, merely the democratically passed proposition stating that marriage is between a man and a woman. Civil unions and legal rights are available in California for same-sex practitioners but not marriage, so no discrimination exists by law.

  • Joseph
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:22 p.m.

    It makes me sad. There are good Mormons, there are good Gay people. The Mormon Church's enormous financial support of this proposition is hurting both. Put the money toward more productive use.

  • no hate
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:13 p.m.

    I don't care what side of the fence you sit is sad to me that a prophet of god asked members of the lords church to support the proposition and some have chosen to be in open defiance to this council? I don't understand.

  • LDS in CA
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:52 p.m.

    Anti California H8 are LDS too; plenty of us in fact. Be careful in discounting the opinion of your neighbour. I love all these commnets from Utah LDS. Very few I know in CA would spew such comments, amazing. I have a gay son and if push comes to shove I chose him, I believe his conviction more than most LDS who have posted here. All I see her from LDS is hate with no reason other then "that is what I have been told." Sorry for the rant, I am just an upset mom and frustrated with the church and some of the people.

  • Not to worry
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:41 p.m.

    Gov. Arnold S. of California stated this morning on CNN that the gay marriage issue will probably go back to the California Supreme Court and be overturned again. I am glad to see that Arnolds views on this subject have evolved and he is now in favor of marriage among the gay population (if in doupt, read the LA Times today). Not worry all, Arnold told the homosexual community to never give up for what is right. Stay strong and equal rights will prevale.

  • Fed Up
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:36 p.m.

    I truly believe that the Native Americans, Black/African Americans, Irish Americans and the Chineses Americans deserve better rights than they have now. They have been through a lot more than anyone in this country. Gays already have their rights. What more do they need? Stop getting greedy!

  • Friend of Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:35 p.m.

    A little English and Math lesson for those who are spreading disinformation through their gender confusion.

    "Gay marriage" is one of the greatest oxymorons ever.

    Gay = man+man or woman+woman
    Marriage = man+woman

    Truth does not equal "hate." Nor does a belief and practice that differs from yours and is grounded in time-honored and socially beneficial mores equal "hate." You can scream hate a dozen times, a million times for that matter, and it won't change the truth, which is: Others who disagree with you have just as much right to voice their opinions as you do without those being ironically, erroneously and continually denounced and spat upon as "hateful." It's a shallow tactic, and can easily be seen through by anyone with half a brain.

  • Lame
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:32 p.m.

    All these comments are one is a bigot for having a view point. The religious right has as much claim to freedom of speech and religious beliefs as homosexuals. Ballot initiatives are the purest form of democracy we have. Those that would have Prop 8 repealed by the judges in California would love to have the government subvert the will of the people. If homosexuals don't like it they can move to a state where it is recognized. The people have spoken...end of story.

  • man I gotta get out of this town
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:30 p.m.

    I live in LA, and I will truly celebrate the day that I will leave this state when I finish school. I feel that someday Church members will have to leave this modern-day Babylon so that the Lord will be able to do what he sees fit with the whole state, whether it be burn with wildfires, destroyed by earthquakes, or swallowed into the ocean. The Church used to have a stronghold in LA, but it has just continually gotten weaker and weaker, and it is because of the liberal mindset of the majority of people in LA and the entire state, including many churchmembers. I believe Church leaders have seen that the failure of Prop 8 or other similar legislation would/will be the beginning of a moral downturn in California and in the rest of the US. It's okay to take away any mention of God and the pledge of allegiance from school, but heaven forbid that we fail to discuss the alternative lifestyle choices of the moral minority. This is the beginning of the end, biblical prophecy will be fulfilled, as it always has, as the latter days wind down. Let me out of here!

  • from MGL with wow
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:26 p.m.

    wow what is going on in USA. Homosexual is life style people choose and what. Democracy isn't anarchy. It's sign of world end.

  • Re: Really? You're Suprised?
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:20 p.m.

    I don't think it's surprise on the part of most members of the LDS Church. It's disappointment that anti-8 people are acting so bigoted, and then have the nerve to call us that for voicing our opinions.

  • To:wheat from the tares
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:16 p.m.

    Nice...I'm going to give you a solid 9.4 on the self righteous scale.

  • Non-LDS Man Here
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:14 p.m.

    RE: You're THAT guy

    How does my attitude represent or give the mormon church anything, when I am not even mormon. Your comment didn't make any sense.

  • A reader...
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:07 p.m.

    DEAR Ashamed: if you don't think those "lies" that you call them aren't true...then you don't watch the news or read much...check it out before you claim it's a's right around the corner and happening already in some schools. My grandson has already experienced it.

  • mom of three
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:04 p.m.

    To Anonymous 9:43 pm: (and all of you who have made similar comments) Your comments are mean spirited and have not an ounce of decency! Your words speak a lot about you and that is really sad. This kind of speech does nothing to help each other see others' points of view, it just alienates people and makes you look like a "pot stirrer".

  • wheat from the tares
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:50 p.m.

    It's nice that things like this come up every once in a while so that the Lord can separate the wheat from the tares (see Alma 14:11).

    As our primary children remind us: "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, don't go astray. Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, he knows the way!!!"

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:43 p.m.


    Washington celebrates Pioneer Day Also...

    Yes indeed we are glad the mormons stopped in Utah and did not make it this far west either!

  • You're THAT guy
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:39 p.m.

    TO: Non-LDS Man Here

    That kind of self righteous attitude is exactly what the Mormon Church doesn't need. I can't believe the amount of people on this blog who try and prove another's apostasy by there 2 sentence post on Prop 8. I'm embarrassed how many members choose to react with a "holier then though" attitude, it's sad.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:24 p.m.

    Missionaries are going to have a tough road ahead. I think we are in for though times and converts may be hard to come ny. I hope I am wrong but this is my fear.

  • mom of three
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:21 p.m.

    This thread is so sad. It is sad that the LDS church and its' members are being called "mean spirited, judgmental, nasty, etc...". just because of their religious views. Most people who are deeply religious will hold these same views, not just the LDS members. Unfortunately what I am seeing as mean spirited, judgmental and nasty is the way that churches and temples are being vandalized because of the views the church holds. I hope and believe that most homosexual people do not agree that this is right and would not condone it. While the LDS church has stood firm on upholding the law concerning the definition of marriage, they believe that gay couples should have civil rights, access to a partner's health care and insurance, death benefits etc... and have stated this many times. Please be nice everyone. Stating your views is fine (without all the sarcasm!), but bashing each other is unproductive! I've been saddened by the cruelty on here.

  • Non-LDS Man Here
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:55 p.m.

    To: RE: Kitchsunich

    Your comment above shows that you obviously don't even have a testimony of the the Mormon gospel, if you are willing to leave and not look back easily like that. So what is it about the church you love, the social aspect of it all?

  • RE: Kitchsunich
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:41 p.m.

    No need to ask what is wrong with us. There are free thinkers in the LDS church and some are compassionate beyond a photo opportunity. It is great to think for yourself on subjects and you know what I could care less what my ward members care. I love the church and serve the church well but you know what, I am strong enough as a women to leave and not look back if this kind of action is the trend.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:20 p.m.

    I am an active LDS Member.

    You would think that of anyone to understand what it's like to be left out, bullied, and persecuted against.. it would be us..

    It makes me so sad to read and hear all these people making judgement of others.

    Love one another.

  • Beth Anne Kitchsunich
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:05 p.m.

    We say "Let them protest", "Let them whine", "We win" and "You lose." We say this all in the name of Heavenly Father??? I think some of you LDS need to take a look at your comments and think about what you type. We are not a mean spirited people but many of you make us look bad. Agree or disagree we need to be respectful. I disagree with H8 and so did about fifty percent of my ward. It has been a sad month or so and now all you are making this much worse with your comments. What is wrong with some of you!

  • Good Job!
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:51 p.m.

    GOOD JOB voters of California! Yeah for democracy! Hooray for the LDS an any other church that stands up for what they believe in, and allow their voices to be heard on this MORAL issue.

    Let the poor protestors protest, it's like the sorry other person who throws the game board in their tantrum after they've lost. One they go too far, the rest of the moral country will organize against THEM, and shout down their pout.

    Believers in God will overcome the amoral in the United States of America!

  • Urberall
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:46 p.m.

    Doesn't the Prophet have a little something better to do than take away the rights of homosexuals. I believe there is a ~5 billion dollar mall that needs a little attention. All the while people starve and die in poverty but we can shop. Why on earth champion the gay rights issue when there are far more human trageties occurring. Building a mall or banning gays rights will not serve humanity. I just don't get the mormons but then again it is a business and I am not am business man.

  • Clint in Sevier
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:37 p.m.

    Lookie me Lookie me
    I am gay and you must accept me

    You Gays are out of control and I for one am glad the LDS Church stepped up. No other church or organization contributed as hard or so much and I am proud that marriage in CA is still between a man and women. Thank you my Brothers ans Sisters. We did the right thing and once again set the example for others to follow.

  • Gene Smith
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:23 p.m.

    Right is right and wrong is wrong. There is no gray area. Who decides what is right and wrong? God does. He tells us through the scriptures. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah? Bible is pretty clear why that place was no more.

    Good for all the people who stand up for what is right. We need more people to take a stand for right in this country and in the world. Right does not mean hate, it means truth. People who do wrong hate the truth.

  • Nigel UK
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:21 p.m.

    When a letter is read over every pulpit from the First
    Presidency of the LDS church, that is church doctrine. The thinking is done for you, you are commanded to obey. Every Mormon bishop in California was instructed to inform you,based on your tithing,how much you should contribute to Prop 8. There is no choice in the matter, it is pray, pay, and obey. If that is not acceptable to you then it is time to leave the LDS church.

  • Not.....
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:21 p.m.

    The mormon god and jesus is not the one I know. With all the hate the mormons have I would suggest they take a deep look at who is at the head of there church and examine the values of the leadership.

  • Tudor586
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:08 p.m.

    I'm a gay Episcopalian from Massachusetts trying to evaluate the assertion of LGBT protestors that the LDS is actively anti-gay, beyond its role in California politics. I think some of the comments here reflect an animus that unfortunately bears out the perceptions. I am worried for the physical safety of gays in Utah.

  • Really?!?!?!?!?
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:07 p.m.

    In re: Voice of the People and others like him

    "The prescriptions in favor of liberty, ought to be leveled against that quarter where the greatest danger lies, namely, that which possesses the highest prerogative of power: But this [is] not found in either the executive or legislative departments of government, but in the body of the people, operating by the majority against the minority." -James Madison

    I am amazed that the LDS Church, who in the context of its history so clearly understands what it means to be a minority deprived of its fundamental rights by a mob majority, became in turn a leader in front of a majority who is denying a minority of its right to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience.

  • wake up
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:04 p.m.

    you are protesting against Prop 8 and the government that gave us the rights to protest things that we don't believe are right. You are also protesting against God by trying to be what you are not. Of course you can protest all you want, but the fact is, you were born either a male or a female. God doesn't make mistakes, humans do!

  • Thomas Olsen
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:00 p.m.

    Marriage is a "RIGHT" for anyone other than one man and one woman?
    I'll make a deal with those who support anything other than Marriage between one man and one woman.

    As soon as any other compination of sex, ie. male-male, female-female, male-male-male, female-female-female. . . you name it, have a natural biological child on a regular basis, (other than ONE Man and One Woman) without any scientific help, then I will consider saying ok to marriage for them. If they can't (and they can't because nature won't allow it)I stant on "Marriage" for ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN"!!!!! End of argument, period.

    Therefore, if a right is not god-given than that right has to be taken from someone else. Is that the kind of "Rights" we want to have in this world?

    I for one do not.

  • Say again?
    Nov. 9, 2008 6:49 p.m.

    The reason why the United States of America promotes marriage between a man and a woman is because it is socially/economically the best bet for the country and for people. Not all marriages are stable, but stable families do form a backbone and stability for their country and their children. There are studies that prove this.

    If gay people want to co-habitate that is their RIGHT, but it is NO ONE'S right to redefine marriage as stated by law. And NO JUDGE IS TO TELL ANYONE HOW TO VOTE, or take away the right to the law making process of this nation. If the courts just decided everything, WHY WOULD WE NEED TO VOTE? The result would be tyranny by the courts. AND THAT would go many different ways...FOR or AGAINST ANYONE.

    Our country was founded on checks and balances. The vote in California was, for me, a check against judges telling everyone else how to vote.

  • Gay
    Nov. 9, 2008 6:37 p.m.

    Gay= bigotry and hate. Want proof! Go watch the protestors.

  • Bill
    Nov. 9, 2008 6:22 p.m.

    I don't condone attacks upon individual Mormons, but the Mormon church used its offices and influence to help fund a deceptive and fear-mongering campaign to deny an existing civil right to thousands upon thousands of law-abiding Californians (and prevent one for Arizonans and Floridians). It would NOT have happened without directives coming from Salt Lake City. It's about time the LDS church owns their intolerance.

    Sore losers? Roe V. Wade didn't stop the pro-life movement. Why should Prop 8 stop the movement for marriage equality?

  • Really?
    Nov. 9, 2008 6:19 p.m.

    "It's ridiculous that this debate has gotten so nasty. If two people want to call their union marriage, I still don't see how that's an attack on my family. It's not. Are we just looking for fights? We've got real problems in this country right now...I wish we had this passion about education and health care." by John Pack Lambert

    that is hilarious...who has posted more passionately these past four months than you?

  • Steve
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    First of all, gays are not, as mentioned by many here, being denied any rights. They are indeed, as denied by many of those here against prop 8, requesting special rights. If everyone on the planet were gay or lesbian, we would die out within a century. So, it only works if only a few people are gay. So why do these people go around handing out propoganda? If it only applies to a few then it is indeed special rights.

  • March Is Good for Church
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    I'm glad the homosexuals are marching on SLC. It's good press for good Americans out there. They get to see that the LDS stand up for something good in a world of devolving standards - the time-honored tradtion or marriage between a man and a woman. Notice something curious - the gays aren't marching on Catholic cathedrals, Jewish synagogues, or Evangelical chapels, are they? Remember folks, they were also big supporters of Prop 8. Go ahead, press. Give us the good exposure. For once, you're getting it right! And you don't even see that, do you? That's cool...

  • Demonstrators
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    All these "protestors" are really demonstrating is how bigoted and intolerant they are! A temper tantrum! I say let them protest, it just shows the rest of the world what they really are! Put them on TV and let other people see their little tantrums and religious bigitory in action!

  • Get a life
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:40 p.m.

    Way to go California! You know there wasn't only mormons voting for this in Califonia. It's good to see other religions share the same beliefs. Get a life!

  • lds
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:40 p.m.

    I am LDS and ashamed at how many self rightous comments are here, are we only to be kind and understanding when we are among people who agree with our beliefs or do we recognize Gay, Straight or otherwise we are all Gods Children and should treat each other as Jesus would want us to???
    I have read alot of hate hear and think it is just sad, not a Day that the self rightouse should be proud of...............

  • california lds
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:38 p.m.

    I can't believe all that has been said about the church. What is wrong with the G/L groups that I thought was to be loving and caring, come on what you all have been doing is consider as hate crimes.
    What members of the church has done was to stand with other's who voted yes on 8 because they believe that marriage is only to be between male and female.
    And for your information I want to say thank you for all the attention as more people want to know more about our church and likes us even more. So if you think you will brake us down you wont for God will protect those who obeys his laws and his commandments from those who wants to do us harm, and if you hurt one of us you are hurting the SAVIOR.
    Now let this go We VOTED now let the courts handle what they feel needs to and you all grow up children are watching and you all are sending a bad message of hate not peace and love. The LDS members don't hate you, we just love what marriage stands for.

  • socal
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:37 p.m.

    To all who keep saying citing the Bible and want to keep marriage a religious institution: Fine. Keep marriage in the church. Just don't expect the government to give you spousal social security benefits. Don't expect your employer to provide spousal medical benefits. Don't expect the IRS to let you claim your spouse on your taxes.
    I'm glad so many of you think that homosexuality is a choice. Just one question. Do you think heterosexuality is a choice? Did you have to decide to love a member of the opposite sex?

  • To ScottAZ
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    Church funds were spend. It is documented that travel expenses of church leaders were contributed for a talk to the faithful, not illegal but they were spent. You are wrong in this part of your comment as well the rest of your comment. Hate breads hate and the LDS church is good about picking a fight with hate.

  • LDS against Prop 8
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:31 p.m.

    Some of these comments are so out of touch with reality it baffles my mind.

    1. Yes, there are LDS gays --- get a clue. Yes, I am gay. Yes, I am LDS --- served a mission and all. In the church since 1979. BTW, did any of you bother to see how some promiment LDS people are voting no on 8? Obviously not.

    2. Marriage for gays will keep traditional marriages intact --- for fundamental LDS people, it's called temple marriage.

    3. The repeating comment that somehow extending the same rights to gays as heteros have will somehow change how education is done or allow people to sue ministers baffles me. -- That is the underlying message on But no worries, traditional marriages are alive and well, at least half of them are --- the ones that don't end in divorce.

    4. By ignoring the rights, yes, rights, of LGBT community, and then turning around and saying, in the same breath, "we are not homophobes" is speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

    5. And no, we will not let this rest. We will not stop, until equal rights are enjoyed by all. Until then...

  • LDS in SoCal
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:23 p.m.

    It is ADAM and EVE not ADAM and STEVE. WHEN will you people get it. God had spoken through his Prophet and HIS living Church. What do you not understand about that?

  • ScottAZ
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:21 p.m.

    Once again, NO Church funds were spent on Prop 8. If individuals who are members of the Church spent their own money on prop 8 then so be it. It is the anti-Church groups that are being hateful and vicious. Get real. This is not a political issue and will not be influenced by any amount of protesting.

  • Gimme a Break!
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:13 p.m.

    "LDS official lauds work for California's Prop. 8"

    "Elder Clayton says leaders 'grateful'..."

    And you wonder WHY the church is now being targeted? It has nothing to do with your prophet, your god, or your scriptures. It has to do with your venemous conduct.

  • Las Vegas
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    I have tried to keep up with this blog and I am continuously amazed at how ignorant people are. First, comparing what this vote did to Gays and what happened to mormons in history is awful. No gays are dying because of this vote, they are not getting ripped from their homes and tarred and feathered and killed in front of their families. Second, the leaders have every right to tell their people what God wants from them. That is why we have them. Third, when you say that you never voted to go against mormon plural marriage, you show your ignorance again. Plural marriage was banned by the US government and rather than protest or get in to a pissing contest, the mormon church leaders told their members to stop the now illegal practice adhering to the laws that were voted in. Why can't the Gays do the same thing. The church does not have plural marriage now and will never have it again as long as it is illegal! Suck it up and go with what the people want. We voted, you lost!

  • From A Gay......
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:10 p.m.

    For you information,Oregon does indeed celebrate Pioneer Day!

    We are greatful that the mormons stopped in Utah.

  • anne
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:08 p.m.

    to what happened: The people in the church aren't any more contentious that ever before. Some are and they don't know when nice works better than whatever it is they are doing on here. Most people in the church are as nice as they ever were. :D
    I wish there weren't those willing to let their emotions get away from them on both sides. Surely most homosexual people are nice people too. The ones I have known are. Kay and Barbara were great! (just in case they happen to be reading saying hi!) Always willing to take all those swarming bees out of our backyard. lol.
    I think its pretty much a few on both sides stirring it up. Time to take the foam down a bit!

  • Fight Back!
    Nov. 9, 2008 4:48 p.m.

    I just heard on the radio that protests continue against Mormon churches today in La Jolla and Oakland, California. There will undoubtedly be more to come. That is what they get for picking this fight in the first place. Your nasty church earned this black eye.

  • True Californian
    Nov. 9, 2008 4:43 p.m.

    Personally, I think Utah should take it's Church of Mo and withdraw from the Union. In the meantime, they should keep their money out of California elections, and stop dumping $20 million into fear monger commercials that had nothing to do with the issue at hand.

  • California Citizen
    Nov. 9, 2008 4:43 p.m.

    The Mormon church should not "wonder" why they are being singled out by the demonstrators. It is because of the truly mean-spirited campaign they conducted on behalf of Proposition H8 and for the outright lies they promulgated so vociferously, unlike the other churches and organizations that merely supported it. They took it upon themselves and now they deserve what they get.

  • re defining marriage
    Nov. 9, 2008 4:15 p.m.

    please define a few years ago.

  • Alan
    Nov. 9, 2008 4:02 p.m.

    I thought the people of California voted not the church. What makes a democracy work is that after the election, we all accept the decision. I did not vote for Obama, but I accept him as my new President. Only once in US history did people not accept the people's election result and that resulted in a bloody civil war that divided the nation and thousands lost their lives.
    A key foundation of a democracy is when the people vote via the ballot box and we all accept the decision. Yes, we may continue to protest but peacefully and without targeting any group or individual. "Play the ball and not the man" is what my coach used to tell me.

  • Demographics
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:48 p.m.

    Opponents of Proposition 8 insist that the electorate is softening and that the future is bright for their cause. They better get busy. With each passing year, California becomes more Hispanic and more African-American. Evidently, the majority of folks in those two demographics still think that having children is a good thing and that marriage between a man and a woman is the way it should work. While liberal white "educated" folk in California work on the gay agenda with their dogs, cats, and same-sex partners, the very demographic that primarily opposes them is growing exponentially. Those who opposed Proposition 8 may have seen their best chance evaporate before their eyes this year. At last check, each passing year notes fewer and fewer states without amendments/legislation proscribing gay marriage. Y'all have a long row to hoe and you better make hay while the sun shines because it's looking more and more desperate for you....

  • Ekaterina
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:45 p.m.

    I think the LDS Church should have its tax exempt status revoked as they are no longer a spiritual institution, but rather, a political machine. It would help our economy.

  • Defining Marriage??
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:32 p.m.


    It's comical that Mormons are out front defining marriage when just a few yearS ago Mormons were defining marriage as one man and anywhere from one to a few dozen women. Why do Mormons think they are such moral highbrows that they should be out telling everyone else how they need to live.

    Mormons never pressured society to change the definition of marriage in fact they wanted to keep to themselves and live their lives in peace. When the United States Supreme Court ruled against polygamy, the practice was stopped. Contrast this to the gay movement.

    Homosexuals have lost none of their civil rights. Have they been sent to prison for being gay? Have they been disenfranchised for being gay? Have they been denied the right to sit on juries because they are gay? Have their homes been invaded unlawfully in a search to find evidence of illegal cohabitation? Have they been forced to leave the country? All these things happened to polygamists. Can you truthfully say that the Mormon Church has hurt gays like this. Trying to compare polygamy to gay marriage and the denial of civil rights is like mixing apples and oranges.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    Kudos to California for passing prop 8, it was and is the right thing to do. The lifestyle is wrong and perverted and one day these folks will have to stand before the Lord and explain themselves. The church has the moral right and responsibility to speak out this and they have done so , but the people of California have spoken ever more loudly, so give it up and let it go.

  • hgdf
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:13 p.m.

    oh brother! now I've heard everything.

  • Jake Brubaker
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:54 p.m.

    Proposition 8 is right. Gay marriage is WRONG, and it`s lifestyle is WRONG too. Look at the stats! God knew all along, it was not for human consumption. Give your heads a shake, and get right with the Lord! After gay marriage, they will want to adopt pure little kids into their den of hell, they are out to deceive the world. Resist corruption!

  • Very appropriate
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:32 p.m.

    THANKS REALLY| 8:11 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
    "I think its inappropriate in most cases to be quoting scriptures to these people that are already feel hurt by this situation."

    I think it is very appropriate. The scriptures are for everyone not just the believers. They have a lot of good counsel too and serve to put the learning of the world in its perspective. If you do not give a person the opportunity to learn the other side of the argument they really cannot exercise their free agency.

  • What Happened?
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:16 p.m.

    I am straight, but left the church many years ago for my own reasons. I belong to another church now (and have no intention of going back), but I did not remember it being so contentious and so apparently full of ill will. In fact, it used to seem the opposite. What happened?

  • To RE: Laura
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:10 p.m.

    That's right, I believe it because I read it in God's book - the Bible - which covers the history of the entire Old World and shows that whenever nations condoned homosexuality they were destroyed and I have this thing called a survival instinct.

    There are other books of scripture like the Torah and the Book of Mormon which also cover the history of entire nations or continents like the New World and testify of the same things.

    The world has enough witnesses and histories. Those who do not learn from history repeat the same mistakes. What praphanalia are you reading and how does it trump 7000 years of history?

  • Sam
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:58 p.m.

    God is dead. Humans have evolvedto the point where a diety is not needed to answer the unknown. Get over yourselves mormons and this god you speak of. You look pretty irrational to all us normal people. I know see why Utah is such a screwed up place. Utah, you can keep you laws and religion. We don't want either of them here.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:54 p.m.

    It's ridiculous that this debate has gotten so nasty. If two people want to call their union marriage, I still don't see how that's an attack on my family. It's not. Are we just looking for fights? We've got real problems in this country right now...I wish we had this passion about education and health care.

  • Used to live in CA
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:45 p.m.

    I find it interesting that the Gay Rights Activists are now protesting after the vote. If they really didn't want it voted on, they should have protested when it was originally put on the ballot. Why didn't they? Because they never thought they would lose in a state as liberal as California. So now, after they realized that more than half of the state doesn't want them to have gay marriages in their state, they attack an easy target.

    The Yes on 8 campaign did a great job bringing to light the adverse effects of gay marriage rights. Thanks to all of you who funded and supported it. We did what we could to educate Arizonans on Prop 102 and we are glad it passed down here.

  • Really? You're Suprised?
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:39 p.m.

    I'm an active member of the church who decided not support prop 8. What bothers me most about this whole ordeal is the fact that the church got involved in a heated political issue and is surprised by the negative press/protests...This is exactly why I'm uncomfortable with the church & state issues. As church leaders you taught us the principles, let us govern ourselves.

  • Shirley
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:39 p.m.

    Get a grip folks. Has anyone out there thought of what God says about this. You cannot make sin right. God says not and we follow what He says. I am a member of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints and proud of it. I have members in my family who are attracted to the same gender. They need self control as we all do. I am thankful for a God who leads us through his Prophet Thomas S Monson. Enough said

  • Wuiver
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:32 p.m.

    Californias quit whining, it could be worse; you could live in Utah. At least you had a chance to vote.

    Here in Utah ther is no democracy but a theocracy, the church speaks and the legislature and sheep follow. There are no two ways about it.

    Be glad you at least had a shot at representation in an election. That stuff just doesn't happen in Utah.

  • Read the History....
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:26 p.m.

    For all the ranting and raving from gay activists, you are not going to change millennia of documented history. Take a look back over the documented history of mankind...from the bible, the koran, the Tanakh and other writings, and ask yourself...

    EVER..EVER..has there been a time in the written history of mankind ANYWHERE on this planet where same sex marriage has EVER, EVER been condoned by a society, and been DOCUMENTED as such, SURVIVED as such and to this day, can it be EVIDENCED as proof that same sex marriage is what all MANKIND want?

    In 7,000+ years of documented "NO WAY!", do you honestly expect that you are going to change the minds of a people who honor and love their God?

    You expect our God fearing nation to change a fundemental institution founded on HOLY principles in order to condone a behavior that his been recorded for millennia as being a perversion in God's eyes.

    No one is taking away your free agency; You can be gay if you want. This nation's people refuse to go against their God, whether He is the God of Israel or Islam and give your perversion the holy name of "Marriage".

  • God Bless America!
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:24 p.m.

    Wouldn't it seem a lot more difficult to say those 3 words if we had legitamized gay marriage? How about "In God We Trust."

    I hope God blesses California.

  • Re: Roger Johnston
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:23 p.m.


    If you look at the Bible than Soddom and Gommorah looks pretty foolish and so does any other nation that legitamized homosexuality.

    And since you brought up looking back at history, the Book of Mormon is a history of the people on this land and people who were dark or light, woman or man chose the wrong in the majority they were shown to be foolish and suffered the wrath of God. When they chose the right they were blessed and free.

    When the people of this country broke the laws of God and had slaves they suffered the wrath of God by having to endure the Civil War.

    So, the Founding Fathers were not perfect but they were right about following God just like Christians may appear to be self-righteous sometimes because of their imperfections even though they are right about choosing to live by God's law.

    I suggest that people stop looking at the faults and imperfections of those who want to obey God on this subject and instead focus on what God says regardless of which imperfect person is saying it - nobody is perfect and that's why we need to follow God.

  • this is all about power
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:21 p.m.

    much has been made of the sacredness of "traditional marriage" ... the problem is, throughout much of recorded history, women in "traditional" marriages were nothing but the property of the husband and were child-producers for the benefit of the husband and his family ... they were required to bring an acceptable dowry ... if they were royal born, they often were used to cement strategic alliances between countries ... today, partners in marriages may, MAY, be somewhat more equal (though i think many women still have not reached parity) ... but i find it amusing that many of these newly emancipated now are saying that other human beings should NOT be able to marry ... for many years the church taught that persons with a genetically determined skin color were not quite good enough ... that has been remedied, at least officially ... now the issue is that other people, whose attraction to the same gender is almost certainly genetic, are being marginalized ... we haven't learned much, have we?

  • terri
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:21 p.m.

    So who gives anyone the right to say they are right and the gays are wrong.. People arent born and grow up and find out they are gay.. they are born that way.. with certain genes, hormones, ect that makes their body feel the way it does.. im not gay, im not LDS, but i feel that this has gone to far.. how many LDS families have a member that is gay ?? I would bet quite a few, but would they love them less?? We are all put here on this earth by one person.. Treat people the way you want to be treated.. If god intended us to be the same, it would be a very boring world.. God made us all different for a reason. So why try and tell someone that they cant do something that they feel is right? I have no problem with people that are gay, ect.. Because they are different doesnt make them less of a person..

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    "When you chose to be gay you consiouscly choose to give up certain rights and privilages."

    "but they need to understand that being choosing to be gay..."

    Most gays do not choose to be gay. That fact won't change, no matter how many times you may suggest otherwise.

    The End

  • Captain Obvious
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:19 p.m.

    Protests are a sign that our democracy is thriving. Good for them.

    "It really bothers me that the gays are being so nasty about it. It is exactly how they don't want to be treated. I don't know any LDS people who spew hatred like they are doing towards us."

    It's pretty obvious that you haven't been reading this thread. Overall, the Mormon commentators have been far more spiteful and hate-filled (no matter how much they deny it) than the anti-Prop 8 commentators.

  • Umm...
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:17 p.m.

    "I would really like to know how you Gay and Lesbian Coalition contribute to society as a group. All I ever see is a "take, take" attitude. If you would take the time to go give service to someone in need instead of protesting you would get more respect."

    Could you have made it clearer that you've never met a gay person? Like it or not, gays are involved in pretty much every aspect of American society. They contribute to the arts, the sciences, etc. Yes, they do give service. The fact that you think otherwise shows your complete and utter ignorance.

  • re- LDS against Gay marriage
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:14 p.m.

    Standing many times in Sacrament meetings, I have heard it say that "they are ok with unions, as long as they do not call it marriage."*********************
    What kind of sacrament meetings have you been standing in?
    I have never heard anyone speak in a Sacrament meeting agreeing with civil unions.
    The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS has always stood against Homosexuality and if you commit that act, you will be excommunicated or dis-fellowshipped.
    You are either anti-Mormon, which many of these comments are- or you have never set foot in an LDS church.

  • Sal K.
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:57 p.m.

    It is a bad idea for mormons to post in defense of these. The more and more you post the worse you all look. It is sad and I do not think the mormon church will recover from this blunder.

  • Scott
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:27 p.m.

    the issue here is the definition of marriage. I am all for all of the benefits of marriage insurance , health care, etc. being given to gay couples. However I am not ok with the redefinition of marriage. This is not about acceptance as much as it is indoctrination and limiting parental rights or a churchs right with regards to marriage. If you believe the commercials for prop 8 were exxagerated then you are mistaken as these things are happening in Massachusetts. There are priests and ministers being sued over not performing gay marriages, there are documents being given to kindergartners portraying things that should be left to the parents to discuss. The alarming thing is that twice now in california this resolution has passed and now we will endure the legal trials over this. I am appalled by the protests that are spewing such hate yet they proclaim to be accepting of all. The truth is they are accepting as long as you agree with their point of wview.

  • What is that smell?
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:15 p.m.

    I'm neither gay nor Mormon. I don't like either one of you. You both belong in a zoo.

  • Re: Laura
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:14 p.m.

    It really comes down to this:

    Those of you who voted YES on Prop 8 believe you know what God truly wants, because you read it in a book.

    Those of you who voted No on Prop 8 just want gay marriages to be treated as 100% equal to heterosexual marriages. If you believe that the gay population has all the rights all ready, under civil unions, then it should be no big deal if we get rid of the concept of marriage and we all just have civil unions. Sounds good to me, just along as everone is treated 100% the same.

  • Tired in NC
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:10 p.m.

    This is a democracy. I do not like the outcome of the recent election, but I will support the new president and the leaders of this nation. The voice of the people has also spoken in the matter of Proposition 8 and the people of our country need to respect that, or move to another country. I will always believe that a marriage is between a man and a woman and GOD and always will be. I will also always believe in our Country and the rights given to us in the Constitution. It is time the protesters do the same.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:07 p.m.

    Re: Wow @11:10
    Truth be told, there are right and wrong answers to most basic moral questions.
    This is the difference between you and I. I have a clear direction that I follow in this debate, you are confused with your own position.

  • Church and State
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:58 a.m.

    I fail to see how the LDS Church can be accused of trying to force their religious beliefs onto others. Shame on those you have tried to twist Joseph Smiths words to prove that the Church is going against its own teachings.

    How have we tried to force our beliefs on others? The only thing the Church has done was to ask the members in California to encourage their friends and neighbors to support prop8. How is supporting a belief that marriage is between a man and a women and has been supported by Muslims, Christians and Jews for thousands of years, any sign that Mormons are attempting to force their beliefs on others and using the ballot to do it.

    The idea of separation of Church and State is nowhere to be found in the constitution. If anyone can find it, please let us know. It does keep the government out of religion though. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; How much plainer does it need to be. As to tax except status threats, again read the constitution; OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF

  • Roger Johnston
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:56 a.m.

    Since I never mentioned the US specifically and to turn the argument into "the majority" again won that battle cause it was right is off the mark and lets not touch on it since so many sacraficed is missing the point. I would simply pointing out that we look back and see that Slavery, Women's rights, Civil rights movement, Earth being flat and not being at the center of our creation seem silly to us now but those people certainly and majority of them belived it to be so or ok. It was a question, will we think this is silly say 100 years from now? If you honestly believe that the human race didn't majority line of thinking, even in this country, think slavery, womens rights, african americans rights that the majority of the people were against them from the beginning whom is the one in ignorance? It is I sir who am cringing and not buying "it was just a concession." Since the majority of the founding father owned slaves. Again the questions stand, Are the majority always right and will future generations look back at our ignorance?

  • leah
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:51 a.m.

    laura...perfectly said!

  • Re: Roger Johnston
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:47 a.m.

    You are absolutely correct when you say "Just because a majority thinks they know better doesn't make it right" but being in a free country means you have to live by the majority's vote - even if it is wrong. That is the rule of law; and if one day the majority chooses to allow gay marriage they will be just as wrong as they are today.

    When the voice of the people chooses something that God has forbidden than the entire nation will suffer God's wrath. I am sorry that this is so hard for gay people (even though they still have the same legal rights as straight people) but the voters have chosen to live according to God's word in a Christian land. The founding fathers always meant for this people to be virtuous and live by principals taught in the Bible.

    BTW, it is not self-righteous to vote for living by the commandments. Relying on your own understanding and going against nature's laws and centuries of procreative definition of marriage is. Sorry if you feel the way you do. Your way of life cannot continue more than one generation by itself.

  • Laura
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:40 a.m.

    Here are some companies to watch out for:
    Levi Strauss

  • Steve
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:38 a.m.

    These people are complaining about how rights are being taken away from them. I've got news for you people. The law applies to everyone. The rest of us cant be homosexual either. So, no, no rights are being taken away from you. You are equal to the rest of us.

    These people are complaining about how they are being discriminated against. I've got more news for you. As so many people here have already pointed out, being gay is a choice. If you think you are being treated unfairly, and if you dont like it, quit complaining and do something useful about it. Notice the word useful. Dont go handing out propoganda, just change and be heterosexual. There is absolutely nothing keeping you from doing it.

    Lastly, many people are saying that the church was discriminated against and hated for something that we could change as well, so we, of all people, should know how it feels. Guess what! We decided to hold to our beliefs and turn the other cheek. You are standing by your beliefs as well. But dont do it by vandalizing and writing hate mail. If you want respect, show us that you deserve it.

  • Don't be fooled!!!
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    But, the gay agenda people (as a whole) have NOT shown that respect, civility, or love back. They have not acted equally. They want equality, but refuse to show it in return when they don't get their way.

    This whole thing is NOT about equality. Section 297.5 (a) of the CA Family Code says homosexuals have the same rights, duties, and responsibilities as heterosexual couples. Where is the discrimination? They already have the same rights so their argument there is hollow.

  • David In New York
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    It's ignorant to suggest that Mormons alone pushed prop 8 through. California has 36 million citizens, 750,000 of which are Mormon. What about the other 35 million Californians? Didn't they count. In this country we all have to live with the will of the majority... for good or bad. Respect for rights? Gay marriage is not an established right. Free speach is, and that's what the Mormon church was doing. Pretty hypocrital if you ask me. "Tolerence" should go both ways.

  • LDS against Prop 8
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:17 a.m.

    Clearly, many things will not change. The LDS Church will never reverse its position, as many have outwardly spoken. Even though Mormons might be a majority, they clearly made their voice heard in the campaigning.

    What fundamental LDS members fail to understand is that the LGBT people are not asking for special rights. The argument that traditional marriage has always been so is not true. There have been many kinds of marriages --- but I won't go there now.

    Second, the LGBT community, as of right now, does not have equal rights under the law. Standing many times in Sacrament meetings, I have heard it say that "they are ok with unions, as long as they do not call it marriage." However, do LDS members come in droves to protect the rights of the LGBT community? No, they do not. But when it comes to limiting their rights, they vote and campaign fiercefully. Is there an unspoken message here?

    While this Prop might have failed now, society is changing. This was a slim margin clearly showing how society is changing from the 2000 Prop 22. We will hold our ground. While we may not agree, we will gain our rights.

  • Laura
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:11 a.m.

    OK, it's as simple as this:

    Those of you who voted YES on Prop 8 fear God more than man.

    Those of you who voted No on Prop 8 fear man more than God.

  • Wow
    Nov. 9, 2008 11:10 a.m.

    Utah is full of ignorance. Why do people here seem to think they are always right, that there is no other right answers in the world? Truth be told, there is not a right answer to every question.

    I see self-righteous people on both sides of the issue. It is you, the extremes, that cause hatred between the two fractions. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs, but you cannot enforce them on another group.

    J. Wright: You are the city on the hill as far biogtry goes. And you, my friend, cannot take away the right of a homosexual's right to choose to love whomever they please.

  • David
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:57 a.m.

    Why are people screaming that the issue is about gay rights, when:
    1. No rights are actually being taken away.
    a. If you are homosexual, you may still vote
    b. If you are homosexual, you may still own weapons.
    c. If you are homosexual, your partner under the domestic partnership law, still protects as if a spouse.
    d. If you are homosexual, no person will prevent you from using the term marriage though you are legally a domestic partner.
    2. Polygamists are equally if not more effected
    a. Under the amendment, no polygamists may legally marry since by definition polygamists seek out 1 man and multiple women.
    b. Under the domestic partnership laws, no woman may marry another woman if she is already married to a man. So, the domestic partnership is bigoted against polygamists.

  • Slavery
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:55 a.m.

    Do we really believe that slavery was ever a majority issue? Or was it a concesssion to create "these United States." Every time I hear the argument posed by Roger above... "Lets take a look back at some of the thing the "majority" thought was right....slavery...most people would say should have known better." ... I cringe. Roger, the majority eventually went to war to eliminate slavery because they never believed it was right. Many paid the ultimate price. Most of us don't see gay marriage as being equivalent to the whole civil rights movement and most of us, mormon or otherwise, are not buying the whole gay marriage as a basic human right thing.

  • Mo-Town
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:52 a.m.

    There have been about 85,000 posts in response to this piece, and I don't know if I've read even one that mentioned God's will on the subject.

    The reason members of the LDS faith went after Prop 8 so heavily is not becuase they don't want flamers to have any rights. It has to do with their belief that homosexual marriage is a grevious sin in the eyes of God and hence, destructive on society.

    It would be like a group of Mormons wanting to write a future propostion to ban alcohol. Do you think their wouldn't be any resistance and demonstrating against the idea from the other side? As sure as hell their would be.

  • Re: Mormons Disgust Me
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:51 a.m.

    What???????????? Out of the 900+ comments, by far, that one is the most ignorant.

  • Karen
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:38 a.m.

    I am a teacher and a library student in CA and I can personally testify that we are ALREADY BEING REQUIRED to teach gay agenda stuff--it's been in the social studies curriculum for YEARS (so you can't exempt your kid). Libraries have gay-promotion as part of their agenda as well. As to closing doors of charities, it has already happened in MA. And churches in Canada have already been forced to do gay marriages. The Church and the prophet did not lie--prophets are forthtellers as well as foretellers. We were merely warned by those who know about what might have happened should 8 have failed.
    The gay community threatened that it will use education of our children to get their way. Once children have been taught that being gay/gay marriage is okay, they will vote that way. It is called brainwashing. The activist judges overturned Prop 22 so that they could honestly claim discrimination--thus villifying people who took a yes stand. The fact that we went from 61% to only 52% tells us that their agenda is already working. We need to be very afraid for our nation and keep fighting for righteousness lest evil prevail. See Mosiah 29:25-27.

  • I have a right to my believes to
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:33 a.m.

    The irony of this whole thing is overwhelming!
    We, the LDS, have not rights to our religious believes??? Because we don't agree with yours???

    What in the world are you talking about?

    I have a right to believe that God doesn't agree, in fact dispises, the thoughts of homosexuality.

    I believe the scriptures, as do the Catholic, Protestants, Methodists, Church of Christ, etc etc etc

    And also thanks to you all, many more will become interested in our religion because they too see homosexuality as a perversion.

    So what you are doing ends up in our favor.

    And to you professors at the U of U who hold your students grades in your hands according to if they agree with your philosophy of supporting the gay rights for a better grade ... Shame on you for your discrimination! Yeah .. this is an OBVIOUS example of DISCRIMINATION.

  • Info man
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:19 a.m.

    Years ago, my wife and I were having a conversation about persecutions that the church and it's members may have to endure in the coming years. It was hard to believe things could go negative. The church was receiving a lot of positive press throughout the world. It's future, as far as public opinion was concerned, looked bright.
    We talked about the Presidency's statement, The Family, Proclamation to the world, the timing of it, (1995) and why it is so important. We felt that God inspired our prophet to bring this forth to reeducate it's members and prepare them for upcoming events. This Proclamation makes very clear Gods will for the church and it's members.
    The gays will continue to move with their agenda to have gay marriage and adoption legalized, and legitimize their lifestyle through Hollywood, media, and public education.
    The Church and it's faithful members will continue to support marriage and the family, and oppose those things that are detrimental to this institution and society as a whole.
    Although we may be persecuted for our stand, we will also continue to grow with added membership of those who share our ideals and love of family.

  • J. Wright
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:04 a.m.

    Homosexuality = Gender Identity Confusion

    All the 'gay marriages' in the world won't change that simple truth.

    All the picketing in the world won't change that for homosexuals on a personal level.

    You cannot take away others right to choose. You cannot control their minds and hearts to accept your confusion. You can only deal with it on a personal level.

    You have chosen a dark and dreary path one in which there is no right turns. You cannot reproduce so you must recruit and therein lies the truth. You must recruit from children of heterosexuals. I don't believe that you would want this lifestyle for your own children. You would not inflict the misery you suffer on your own innocent progeny.

    Look to the Light...Only God can heal you.

  • JR
    Nov. 9, 2008 10:02 a.m.

    To my fellow LDS members. We obviously are supporters of Prop 8. However, I think that we need to be very careful about the way that we respond to some of these posts. Remember, the few can make it look like they represent the masses. We are taught to be respectful I think that we can do a better job of that. Reach out with love, not with cutting words. We may not have the same views, but we can be civil and friendly.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:55 a.m.

    The irs code talks about CANDIDATES not propositions.

  • kid
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:54 a.m.

    The church to me seems to be the most pro-marriage organization in the world, not the most anti-gay. According to most Californians marriage is defined between a man and woman, not two guys or two girls, but one of each. Ah, what a day, finally. Quit getting it mixed up people, just accept what happened and live your life in your own closet!

  • Re: Daniel
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:52 a.m.

    Nearly every law we have is based on religion. Read the Ten Commandments and you'll find the basis for our laws against murder, stealing, perjury, etc. To suggest that people can't vote according to their Church's teachings is to deny us our right.

    Whether or not gay marriage will hurt society is very difficult to know at this time. Many turn to their own wisdom and 'compassion' when making their vote. Many others, including myself turn to God for the answer because we don't trust the wisdom of man.

    We know you do the same and do not fault you when you vote against giving rights to bear arms. You think it's better for society and we get that and never claim that if the majority felt that way the laws would be constitutional.

    The left's denial for us to vote as we see is best for society is the real oppression of rights and I strongly object.

  • RE Question for U
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:43 a.m.

    Nasty and Self-righteous?))
    Sounds like you are describing the Liberal Gay Activists.

    I know that these Gay Activists will continue to 'kick against the pricks' until the millennium.

    If God asked me what I did in this life?
    I can say that I voted against Gay marriages and Abortions.
    /Maybe that might get me in the door.... yo!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    When the prophet speaks, the thinking may NOT have been done. It is good to see protests in front of church buildings. It should have happened years ago.

  • roger johnston
    Nov. 9, 2008 9:23 a.m.

    I love the "argument from majority" that so many people here use in this state. Just because a majority thinks they know better doesn't make it right. I wonder if this issue in future generations will look back and say, "they should have known better." Lets take a look back at some of the thing the "majority" thought was right....slavery...most people would say should have known better. The church of all people should know what its like to be thrown under the bus for "marriage" issues. They certainly weren't in the majority then. There is an inhert flaw in putting a vote to the public were the majority can impose its will on the minority. The majority time and again isn't always right...I guess cause "God" said so the earth is still flat and we are at the center of his creation.."they should have known better?" Slavery, womens rights, interracial marriage, etc all sound rediculious and we think we are so superior in our morality yet I argue we still wear the same blinders.

  • Chris
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:45 a.m.

    There is a major difference between religious marriage and civil partner and I are Roman Catholic...we would fight for our church's right to not recognize our relationship...the Pope has primacy in our faith, though we don't agree with him -- he is the law of the RC church.

    However, we will fight for our civil rights to be full citizens in our state. Seperate but equal is not equal in civil law in the United States -- see Brown v Board of Ed 1954. We will prevail in the courts and we've come extremely close even with this vote because THE US IS NOT A THEOCRACY as much as some people would like that to be true. Individual rights have always ultimately prevailed in this country---read the history.

  • Question 4U
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:39 a.m.

    Are all Mormons this nasty and self-rightous?

  • Mormons Disgust Me
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:23 a.m.

    There are more homosexuals in the world than Mormons by far. Do you want us to vote on your religion?

  • Thanks, really
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:11 a.m.

    "I think its inappropriate in most cases to be quoting scriptures to these people that are already feel hurt by this situation.

    I fully support Propostion 8 and donated to the cause but rubbing it in by reading scriptures that make you sound like their personal judge seems against the counsel of our church to not vilify or be disrespectful in this situation.

    Please be careful about how you talk to our brothers and sisters and remember to be respectful."

    Thanks for this post. Unfortunately, self-righteousness has overtaken the proud. Or maybe pride has overtaken the self-righteous. Either way.....

  • In Jesus' Name Amen!
    Nov. 9, 2008 8:07 a.m.

    Bigotry, particularly in the name of Jesus, is never justified. The Inquisition was based on the same logic. So were the Salem witch trials and Cotton Mather.

  • David
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:41 a.m.

    The amendment to define marriage took away NO civil rights from anyone. If you are homosexual, you may still vote. If you are homosexual, you may still own a firearm and etc. Again, no civil rights were lost. You also retain the same rights under the domestic partner law, which unmarried heterosexual couples may not participate, as married spouses. The only difference is that your committed and legal relationship remains a domestic partnership while a heterosexual couple is either only "shacking up" or is equally legally protected as the domestic partnership and married.

  • Now I Know
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:29 a.m.

    I've been undecided on this issue, but now watching the reaction of the gay community to a legal and fair vote of the people I cannot choose their side. It is obvious the gay agenda goes far beyond this ballot. Thankd you for your immature handling of the tells me all I need to know about your complete lack of character, and morals. Would the "Mormons" be acting like this if prop 8 had been defeated? No.

  • To Susan:
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:26 a.m.

    If the Lord teaches us not to judge one another, then why do we have courts and judges?

  • Domestic partnership
    Nov. 9, 2008 7:23 a.m.

    Read the following and then, other than reinterpreting the word marriage, what legal right was lost?

    297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,
    protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
    responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
    derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
    government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
    of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.

  • Watch the news
    Nov. 9, 2008 6:33 a.m.

    Do the gay activist watch the news. Fox news reported that the reason Prop 8 passed was because the african-american people turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama. These people have high family values and believe marriage should be between a man and a woman and they voted that way. Its just not the LDS church that have these values but the majority of americans believe this way. Gay activist want tolerance and understanding but they do not show any towards other groups.

  • Why the Surprise?
    Nov. 9, 2008 6:13 a.m.

    The LDS was the major money and manpower force behind passing Prop 8. Be proud, you bought and paid for it. But with actions come consequences, the LDS Church is now officially the most anti-gay organization in this nation.

    Nov. 9, 2008 5:18 a.m.




  • TW
    Nov. 9, 2008 5:10 a.m.



  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 4:42 a.m.

    To @ Plain and Simple:

    Up until last Tuesday gay couples had the legal right to marry in California . . .
    Marriage, along with being a symbolic act to formalize a commitment made by a couple, is first
    and foremost a civil issue.. . . Please define marriage for me. Here is my definition a union
    between a man and a woman as husband and wife. Therefor by definition gay couples cannot
    marry. They have a civil union. The fact that you and your partner have been together for 25
    years and want the same rights and protections has been granted in the California Family Code. I
    am assuming you are a Californian since Prop 8 only affected citizens of that state.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:34 a.m.

    To Boyd Henderson:

    "God said it is not good for man to be alone." You conveniently left out what God did about it. May I remind you he created Eve, a woman not a man. If you would look in any dictionary you would see that marriage is a union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. By definition gays cannot be married. They can live together and if they have enough clout as in California they even can get laws passed to give them all the same rights and privileges as married people. So it is not about rights but about what they call their living arrangement that has sparked all the protests.

  • Daniel
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:26 a.m.

    Being straight doesn't mean you get special rights either! The bigoted majority who voted in California's Prop 8 have crossed the line between church and state FORCING THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF into law. They are saying that others who do not share their belief or even churches who support gay marriage may not do so. That is immoral, unconstitutional, and downright selfish and evil. Your religious freedoms ends where my civil rights begin.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:22 a.m.

    To Anonymous at 10:45 a.m.: Marriage has always been defined between a man and a woman, in all societies and religions. They numbers may have changed at times depending on the society and religion (See Old Testament and Muslim to name two others besides early Mormonism), but it was never with members of the same sex.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 3:07 a.m.

    The coalition is not going away.

    The Prop 8 California coalition of protectmarriage will stay together to defned marriage. GLAD is mad they have a political challenge. They thought they held all the political clout over our elected officials. We will hold elected officials accountable. We will be watching the mayors of Los Angeles and San Diego, assembleymen and state senators who ignored the will of the people and sued the very people who elected them. For too long the gay community has held them hostage. They have no family and lots of free time to lobby and strategize. We have found our voices now and will be heard. We might have families to take care of, kids to take to soccer practice and other interests besides our jobs. However, we have learned how to manage our time to devote to a cause that is just. We are not going away. We have as much resolve and tenacity as our opponents, who with their tantrums have awakened a sleeping giant. We will challenge every unjust judicial decision, every school board member who promotes the disintegration of marriage and every other politician you thought you had in your back pocket.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:19 a.m.

    To Blue: Nice dodge of the question. If name calling is your best shot no wonder you side can't win on the arguments when put to the vote of the people.

  • wayne
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:17 a.m.

    patty 4:27you have some unresoved issues. I sugest calling Dr. loura on monday.

    did you read the post delivered at the same time "did anyone ask the blacks?". this teacher gave a stark response from her research. you should ask some blacks why they supported prop 8 like this good teacher did.
    blacks and hispanics voted overwellmingly in support of prop 8. the no on prop 8 should look at there actions in the black urban communities as a source of defeat.
    stop spewing hate against the mormons. a little over $2000 doesn't seem like a reason to show so much hate against mormons.

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:16 a.m.

    To reason: What is your source of Mormons giving 40% of the money for Prop 8. Do you people just pick a number and we are all supposed to accept it as a fact?

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:04 a.m.

    To John: Define marriage. If you use the word as we know it from any dictionary it is impossible for two person of the same sex to be married. What they have is a civil union. No one is taking their right away from being together. We merely ask to let words mean what they mean and stop trying to change the language until we no longer understand one another.

  • kid
    Nov. 9, 2008 2:03 a.m.

    Gays will never be satisfied because they know what they are doing is wrong and they just want another way to justify their actions... hate to break it to you, but prop 8 or any other law will never satisfy your insatiable appetites for that which unnatural. Yep i said unnatural, face the facts of your problem by yourself and quit making it everyone elses problem!

  • Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:50 a.m.

    To Straight Guy for Gay Rights: You define marriage and you will get the good reason you are looking for.

  • wayne
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:42 a.m.

    to sureshot 2:16

    you say that you do not have the same rights as "married" people. civil unions gives you every right a married person has with the lone exception of the name.

    why do you feel that you are being discriminated against? because prop 8 vacated the special protections and case law you needed to push your agenda forward and down the necks of unsupecting people.

    How can you say that you should have the same leagle protections granted minorites espcailly African-Amaricans. have you gone through what that community had gone through simply for having more skin pigment. how about women and the handicaped. they are easy to see and understand why they were granted special protections the kind the california supream court gave the homosexual communities.

    the only way to identify a homosexual is by his or her, its behavior. that is why the vast majority of minorites blacks and hispanics voted for prop 8.

    so why attack or protest against the church. maybe because mormons have been discriminated against more than any other religious organization in this nation. maybe because they get a pass for attacking mormons.

    so just how is bigited here? it's not the mormons.

  • end of time
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:40 a.m.

    Think for a moment.
    If we allowed a small state like NH to have only married gay couples.
    Refused to let any gay couples in that state adopt children.
    Within 2 generations all the married gay couples in NH would be gone.
    Not quoting scripture-
    God didn't set up the Garden of Eden with Adam marrying Bruce and Eve marrying Beth.
    This earth life we have known would have ended.
    Satan knew it- God knew it.
    Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their own sakes.

  • boldlygo
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:29 a.m.

    Sadly, i suspect most of you posting on this site do not know a gay person - and within your own families likely someone who is gay would not come out in such a hostile environment. Likely these are your sons, daughers, brother, sisters, who for reasons unclear to you leave the state, and go to NY or California to find happiness and peace. So you all reinforce your beliefs and alleged "knowledge" with each other, never gaining any fresh perspective from an intimate one to one talk with maybe someone you love, who happens to be gay. If you had that talk, I think your eyes would open to the subtle truths of what is universal - the need to love, be accepted, and belief in your fellow man. This was what was all shattered with Prop 8

  • hello
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:17 a.m.

    I could not agree more with the comment posted above by "Hello my fellow Mormons". It is true that Prop 8 is the correct choice, but by quoting scripture especially the B.O.M we (as members of Gods true church) are, in a way, not loving them, but bashing with them and one thing we can not do is convince them of their sin. Love the sinner hate the sin!

  • Sislis from Spain
    Nov. 9, 2008 1:13 a.m.

    why are the protestors complaining. A vote was put, all those wishing to vote did so, and the outcome, legaland fair was not to their liking. Tough. It must also be pointed out that LDS. are not the only religious group involved, so where are the pickets outside other religious buildings??? Could it be because "they", the pickets, know that the laws of God and of the mass of people are the same. Marriage is between man and woman, always has been, and, one hopes, always will be.

  • different perspective
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:37 a.m.

    it seems to me that everyone is overlooking the fact that everyones rights have been affected not just the GLBT community. I no longer have the right to marry a man due to prop 8 just as any gay man. homosexuality is defined as a sexual attraction to the same sex, they still have the right to marry an opposite sex person, but choose to ignore this right of theirs because of where their sexual preference lies. it seems all very ridiculous to me that laws should have to argued around the sexual preference of a minority

  • The Rock
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:35 a.m.

    Liberals always look to the courts to win what they cannot win at tha ballot box.

    Want to be call a really bad name? Just disagree with a liberal.

    Disagree with the gay activists and you are a homophobe.
    Disagree with Obama and you are a racists.
    Try to rein in the excesses of Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac when they brought affirmative action to the mortgages and you are a racists.
    Disagree with abortion and you are a sexist.
    They have names at the ready for every occasion.

  • Re: To Doodles
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:34 a.m.

    See Re:Doodles - really meant for you.

  • Re: Doodles
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:32 a.m.

    Dear Doodles,

    Actually, our freedom was founded on Christian principles. This is a Christian nation who's constitution was based on principles found in the Bible. Your freedom was founded on Christianity and if it weren't for God you would not even have your freedom.

    You don't even know your country's own heritage. The Founding Father's always recognized the hand of divine providence from the God of the Bible but shunned any state-sponsored religion by a specific church.

    BTW, atheism or humanism is its own religion so saying that you don't want to have Christian values pushed on you is really saying you want to push your humanistic religions on us - which will actually destroy the freedom of this country.

    If you don't like living in a Christian land you don't have to live here. Christians accept and love people from all religions but they don't have to give up the values of religion our freedoms are founded on. You are free to practice whatever kind of lifestyle you want, even if it is perverted but don't pervert the values of this great country by changing its laws - keep it to yourself.

  • Friend of Plain & Simple
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:25 a.m.

    As posted by "To Doodles":

    " does allowing gays to marry damage your society and your "Christian" virtues??"

    Allowing gays to REDEFINE marriage to include same-sex relationships damages society first and foremost by ceating the illusion that gay relationships contribute to subsequent generations no differently than straight relationships.

    The former cannot and will never contribute to child-bearing and raising in the same way that the latter, as a man and a woman are crucial to creating a child in the first place, and a mother and a father are both key components to that child's well-being throughout life.

    Some traditional families are deprived of such an ideal by circumstance, not choice. However, in all homosexual unions, such a deprivation is purely by choice. The mindset that says, "One type of parent (mother or father) is good enough for my kid" is borne out of selfishness, not out of what's best for children.

    I'm a parent, and there's no way on earth I'd ever wish upon my children (or other children) a situation where they couldn't enjoy having parents of both sexes and realize the unique contributions that only a father or only a mother could bring to their lives.

  • Re: My Prayer
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:15 a.m.

    People of various faiths can still love gays and lesbians unconditionally and vote their conscious. Just because I don't want to teach my kids in school that being gay is OK doesn't mean I don't love someone. That is a far-fetched accusation that protecting my children means I don't have unconditional love. Not supporting proposition would be unconditional stupidity and unconditional irresponsibility on my part as a parent.

    By the way, I do have a love for the infinite and a relationship with him as well as people of many faiths and religions who voted down gay marriage. I am not sure who "the infinite" is to you but if he is the god of the Bible then I don't think you understand the scriptures so try reading them again. If he is another God then you should know that this country is a Christian nation which was founded on Christian principles. The founding fathers taught that the constitution was designed for a virtuous, God-fearing people and would work for none-other. The People have the ability to lose true freedom if they vote to do so against righteous principles. Freedom was preserved.

  • Susan
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:07 a.m.

    the lord teaches us not to judge one another.

  • multiply and replenish the earth
    Nov. 9, 2008 12:07 a.m.

    was in the beginning...for a man and a takes this to do that. That is what marriage is all about and has been since the beginning. Marriage is fot this and for raising and protecting the children of that marriage. How do two men, or two women multiply and replenish the earth. Gay marriage is conterfiet marriage in the sigtht of God, man, and His church. The mother of the human race, created by God was Eve, not Steve. Get with it people. Just because they want it does not mean that they should have it.

  • To my fellow Mormons
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:59 p.m.

    I think its inappropriate in most cases to be quoting scriptures to these people that are already feel hurt by this situation.

    I fully support Propostion 8 and donated to the cause but rubbing it in by reading scriptures that make you sound like their personal judge seems against the counsel of our church to not vilify or be disrespectful in this situation.

    Please be careful about how you talk to our brothers and sisters and remember to be respectful.

  • Cheryl
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:58 p.m.

    Welcome to our lovely city. Notice the cleanliness, the courteous people, the order and the unique beauty of our families. Our city was scratched out of the desert by the ancestors of the citizens you are protesting. This grit is generational as is the depth of our faith and our testimony. It is probably not anything you will ever understand. We have been bullied before and grown stronger. Our concerns are multi-generational and are more profound than you could understand in a short commercial or soundbite. How arrogant and terrifying to assume that one is wiser than thousands of years of tradition, not to mention the Father of us all. How foolish to try to wipe out generations of wisdom in one generation. Are your motives truly unselfish? I wonder. I wish you could have seen the face of my teenage daughter that we adopted overseas a year ago when I asked her if she would like to have been adopted by two moms or two dads. It spoke volumes. By the way, if an earthquake leveled S.F.,I along with hundreds of other Mormons would be on the frontlines helping you out. Can you wrap your brain around that?

  • George
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:56 p.m.

    re: Revoke tax exempt status | 6:05 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008

    Give me a break. How many times did Obama, Cinton, ad naseum go to various democrat/left leaning churches and blame Bush and other republicans for all of the evil that is going on in this world.

    Yes, please IRS, go after ALL these churches that decide to mix religion and politics. No exceptions.

  • Sick of Prop 8
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:48 p.m.

    Let's move on.

  • George
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:46 p.m.

    re: MoHo | 8:01 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008


  • Wow
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:44 p.m.

    This is crazy. So, you can't get married. Too bad so sad. The only reason why most of the Gay/Lesbian population wanted this to pass was to have society giving them a pat on the back a hey it's o.k. to live this type of lifestyle. Well, at least you are not being attacked for your lifestyle choice just for your wanting need to feel normal. Well, the masses have spoken and your lifestyle choice isn't going to get the green light from the masses. Keep living how you live; but, sorry marriage is between a man and a woman. Not a man and a man or a man and a cat etc.
    By protesting it just shows that you can't accept the facts. That even though a judge granted a right that he didn't have the power to grant. That the checks and balances of the popular vote vetoed his decision.

  • RSL Forever
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:35 p.m.

    I'd like to thank all the out-of-state gay people who stayed in Salt Lake County hotels for helping pay for RSL's new stadium.


    Bring more people next time - we need more TRT funds for the expo center/arts district/acquarium/etc... My heartfelt apology to Utahns who havn't stayed in a Utah hotel in the last 10 years who think THEIR tax dollars have gone to the stadium.

  • Barakobama
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:33 p.m.

    Our new elect president said it. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Thank you very much

  • My prayer
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:31 p.m.

    is that Religion is abolished from the face of the earth. I feel in my heart that I have a relationship with the Divine Creator, however the religious dogma that causes our world to be divided is nothing more than religion. My experience of being a part of the Mormon Church for nearly ten years, is that its members are fully commited to an organization and rarely do they have a relationship with the Infinite. When we as a people can learn to love each other unconditionaly without any strings attached, then and only then can we grow as a people. When we continually want to prove that our way is the right way, all we are doing is strengthening our egos. I have know ill will to any of the Mormon population or the Mormon Church, it is all that you know.....When the LDS Church is pushing their agenda on people who are not interested, people who live their lives through spirit realize their egos are doing all the talking. Have a great night....Love

  • Clackey
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:26 p.m.

    Our "Non-member" friends here in California have been thanking us for all of the work that we as members here did to get Prop 8 passed.

  • Sam
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:19 p.m.

    I am strong for PROP 8. I don't care if Gays marry, i really don't. I just don't want my children being taught in school that this is natural. Its not. I don't want children to be adopted into these gay marriages either. Its not fair to the children. They have no choice. They end of having a dad and a dad, not a dad and a mom. thats why I vote yes on 8

  • To: Doodles
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:11 p.m.

    "I believe that those who choose to practice homosexuality damage themselves and our society and its Christian virtues."

    Thats your belief- but honestly how does allowing gays to marry damage your society and your "Christian" virtues?? Seriously they are not the ones trying to take your rights away! Personally I believe your opressive Christianity has done more to damage our society- which was founded in freedom and justice for ALL.

  • georg
    Nov. 8, 2008 11:10 p.m.

    The people spoke. Marriage is between a Man and a women. It has being and it will be. If those people want to push that again. we Will defeat them. We are the majority. Thank goodness.

  • CougarKeith
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:59 p.m.

    Fact: The Church has made it clear, the Savior has made it clear in the scriptures! What else needs to be said? If your LDS and you don't agree with the Church, then you obviously don't agree with the Savior because you don't read about what he says in the SCRIPTURES ON HOMOSEXUALITY. Therefore my suggestion is you do 1 of 2 things: 1. Repent and be sorry and get your act together. 2. Ask your bishop to have your name removed from the church records because you obviously don't agree with the Church's doctrines, nor that of the SAVIORS DOCTRINE! With that as the case you are in a very sad lot of selfishness and denial of what the Savior has said since the beginning of time, and you are being a student of the Devil and what he wants you to believe. If you have been to the temple, go back and PAY CLOSE ATTENTION! Your being dupped my friends, and selfishness and pride are controlling your thoughts, not humility, compassion and love. So many accuse the Church and it's members of hate and persecution, when quite the opposite is true, we feel for them, and love them.

  • CougarKeith
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:51 p.m.

    Homosexuals have the right to choose, just like a woman has the right to choose. A woman's right to choose "Abortion" is the wrong choice in my opinion, but she has that choice. A gay person's choice to excercise his Gay tendancies to have sex with someone of the same gender is his/her choice and nobody is trying to prevent that although many believe it to be wrong. However trying to make it the NORM to be "Married" as a husband and wife have had the RIGHT to be since the beginning of time is WRONG and beyond acceptable in society. Why can't you just be "gay" about your ability to have sex and a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex? Why do you have to have this "In Your Face" attitude? It's wrong, and the behavior is wrong, yet you push for more and more and more. GIVE IT UP! Be happy with the perversions you excercise now, stop trying to push it down our throats! Your downfall shouldn't be the downfall of the whole society!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:49 p.m.

    Let them be gay. There's no future in it. It will die out with each individual generation.

  • Doodles
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:39 p.m.

    After reading all 17 pages of comments on this story this evening, I want to say just a few things.

    When a man and a woman commit socially, financially and sexually to one another, our word for that commitment is "marriage." That is what it is called.

    Two men or two women making a sexual committment to one another is called "homosexuality," meaning one sex. Among religious people of all major faiths and through all recorded time, this has been a sexual perversion and a sin.

    I personally object to allowing sodomy to be enshrined in law and to call it marriage. I am a Christian and believe the Bible and it's teachings on homosexuality. I take serious issue with the anonymous post that proclaimed "Our country wasn't designed to enforce the Bible." That is not true. The motto of the United States of America is "In God We Trust."

    I believe that those who choose to practice homosexuality damage themselves and our society and its Christian virtues.

    I believe that homosexuals have the right to choose, for themselves. They also have consequences for their choices.

    Many of the comments on these 17 pages are heartbreaking to me.

  • Jonas
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:38 p.m.

    Since most people here are stuck in the past, I have observed far more parallels to the corrupt Pharisees from the Mormons than I have observed parallels to Christ's teachings. Just my personal observation.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:36 p.m.

    Hey "Mormons Out," can I have job?? I'm tired of having to lie about my gentile status in job interviews.

  • Wendy
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:23 p.m.

    I wonder why we supported Prop 8... hmmm, maybe because it's an abomination before God and flat out disgusting.

  • mom of three
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:23 p.m.

    For those who keep saying how hypocritical it is for the church to say they believe in acceptance and love for all and then urge members to vote for prop 8, let me fill you in. We are NOT taught to accept and love sin. We are taught to love all mankind, but not sin! We believe the bible and it teaches that homosexuality is an abomination before God. God does not change or He would cease to be God. Therefore, the church will not change its' views on homosexuality no matter how many protest or even how many members are upset by this. Protesting won't change anything, it just stirs the pot.

  • Lynn
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:20 p.m.

    I am LDS, and if I had been a resident of CA, I would have voted Yes on 8, too. Marriage is a sacred ordinance, between a man and a woman. It should stay that way. Let gays have civil unions, with legal rights, but not marriage.
    The past few days, since the Election, have been sad for me. I supported Barack Obama, and I'm very happy he won, but I have lost a friend over it, who thinks Mormons can't be Democrats, and have the Spirit with them.
    Then, when I heard about the vandalism at the Los Angeles Temple, and saw the pictures on the news, I cried.

    I have never seen as much hate and bigotry as happened with this Election. The anti-Mormon sentiment was rampant with Romney's candidacy. Then, the videos of Republican rallies,with threats against Obama, fear and bigotry because of his name, lies and smears, etc. made me sick. Now this, one of the Temples being forced to shut down, by a mob of angry protesters who didn't get their way!

    Satan is alive and well, and feeding on all the contention. Is persecution far behind?

  • Cybele
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:15 p.m.

    Don't forget that Connecticut now ALSO allows gay marriages, not just Massachusetts.

  • Granny Girl
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:14 p.m.

    I live in CA and worked to pass Prop. 8 - and reading all the comments above, I am amazed at the lack of factual information some of you have. To "Ashamed to have ever been a Mormon", please find out the correct information before you write. Yes, indeed, the California Education Code says that marriage will be, and is now,taught in schools. If the "NO" vote had won, new text books and new curriculn materials etc. would have to be provided for all public schools. And yes, there is a distinct possiblility that, if the "no" proposition had passed, churches would be required to perform gay marriages, or lose their right to perform marriages. No doubt you would love to see no more temple marriages in California temples?? It seems to me that the gay community has given themselves special names, and set themselves aside in special groups etc. -- why can't the gay community create a name special to themselves for the civil unions already permitted that would make it their own special "marriage"? Under the civil union provision, they already have all the civil rights that a man/woman marriage has.

  • Book my tickets!
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:12 p.m.

    Great! TRUE marriage has been defended, and the gay agenda has been revealed for what it REALLY is.
    I live in California, and I got to vote YES on Prop. 8. It felt GREAT. Marriage isn't about two people in love wanting to share their lives together. A civil union accomplishes that. Marriage is about bringing kids into the world (that takes a man and a woman) and ASSURING kids' rights to having a male role-model and a female role-model. Marriage isn't about rights, it's about what is RIGHT, and "gay marriage" isn't it. You may eventually legalize it and gain worldly acceptance and validation, but it will NEVER be right in the eyes of God.

  • THE BIBLE SAYS . . .
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:04 p.m.

    Hey the last time I checked the Bible's first marriage was between Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

  • big momma
    Nov. 8, 2008 10:02 p.m.

    Those who continue to protest against prop 8 are only hurting themselves. When they deface private property and yell hateful things to to anyone who disagrees with them, it only makes me feel stronger about keeping the definition of marriage only between a man and a woman. Go home to CA or maybe you should move to MA?

  • Aaron C.
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:51 p.m.

    RE: Eliza 9:37pm

    That's a well thought out, intelligent comment. I like your plan. Count me in.

    Hopefully we can all be civil to one another on the inevitable path to acceptance.

    Most of the things being said here (on both sides of the argument) would NEVER be said if we were all in the same room together.

  • Howdy from Cali
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:51 p.m.

    I think the LDS Church is the only organization in the world who can elicit protests and picketing from both the evangelical community and gay rights mob (though for very different reasons, of course). On that basis alone we must be doing something right. Should make for an exciting General Conference next spring! Life is good!

  • RE: Mormons out
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:50 p.m.

    Who was the lousy 'HR' director that states they fire people based on religious beliefs? If you think this is an idea that helps your company, you may want to publicize it as a special advantage that consumers would want from you. Don't let it being not only unethical but also illegal stop you, convince them how much morally superior you are that you can make such a decision against the laws of the land and probably the policies of your own company.

  • Esme
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:47 p.m.

    Stop deluding,

    If you are wary of the results of modern research, you may hastily look up the current statistics on the online encyclopedia of your preference under "homosexuality." There you can also be informed of the sources of the research conducted.

  • Eliza
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:37 p.m.

    I truly believe it is only a matter of time before the resolution is made that the government's only duty is to grant couples civil liberties thus giving civil unions to both heterosexual and homosexual life partners.

    Let marriage be governed different from church to church. The abstract criteria and ideals of the label of "marriage" can be left for the institutions from which they came to sort out. If marriage is sought, a couple could then go find a church which welcomes them, giving same-sex couples a number of options (i.e. Episcopal, MCC).

    I can see no other solution which would appease everyone, a solution for which we should all be striving together.

  • Adam
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:35 p.m.

    I hate California anyways. Let's put it for a vote in Utah

  • Stop deluding yourself
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:29 p.m.


    "Modern research has concluded that between 2 and 7 percent of people are exclusively homosexual, not 1 in 3, as you stated."

    7% of U.S. population is approximately 21,079,796 or an average of 421,595 people per state.

    Your statistics are really screwed up if you think that many people have been proven to be exclusively gay. A 7% exclusively gay population would result in a drastic decrease in our population over the years. California's population is 36,553,215. The adult population of California is 26,100,000 which would mean that 7% of the population of California who are gay would be 2,558,725. If that was true then this vote should have easily went no on Prop. 8. Just over 10 million people voted in California which means that a dedicated population of 2.5 million would be half of their total vote.

    This numbers may not be 100% correct but you get the message. For 7% of the population to be gay would have results in a) this proposition overwhelmingly passing or a very high percentage of heterosexuals are opposed to same-sex marriage, and b) with that kind of population being exclusively gay it would result in a drastic population decrease.

  • Jenibobeni
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:26 p.m.

    My questions for the the "No on Prop 8" protesters: Do you need the state to tell you you're married? Do you need the state to validate your relationship and by extension your sexuality? Do you need everyone to approve of your lifestyle? My advice to you is to accept yourselves and stop asking others to accept you.

  • D-funk
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:25 p.m.

    I can't understand just what rights that they are talking about? I don't have the right to marry another man, my wife doesn't have the right to marry another woman. There is no unequal treatment. Besides, nobody is saying eliminate domestic partnerships, they just don't want the definition of marriage to be destroyed. Why all the fuss? Can't the GLTC let it be? In my opinion it's them trying to destroy my right to marriage (husband and wife).

  • RE: Mormons Out 6:03pm
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:14 p.m.

    Since the Mormons were not the only ones to vote against the proposition are you treating the Catholics,Latinos and the African Americans, etc the same at your company.

    I hope that one of your "lay-offs" is reading these comments and figures out who you are and then takes legal steps to handle it!

  • To all the hateful tyrants
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:12 p.m.


    "The LDS church was singled out because they gave the largest percentage of financial support to support prop 8 and were very public about it. Their intolerance simply had a boomerang effect."

    The LDS Church didn't donate any money to support Prop. 8 except to make a single in-kind donation of $2,078.97 to cover the travel expenses for Church leaders who went to California.

    On the other hand the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops donated $200,000 and the Knights of Columbus donated $1 million. In addition the California Conference of Catholic Bishops issued the following statement "...we strongly encourage Catholics to provide both the financial support and the volunteer efforts needed for the passage of Proposition 8."

    The LDS Church issued a similar statement and some members chose to respond to that request. Others did not.

    If you take the total $27 million that individual Mormons donated and divide it by an average of $5,000 (some would have given more and some less) we arrive at a total of 5,400 Mormons donating to Yes on Prop. 8. Thats a small percentage of the Church's membership.

    No matter how you look at it. The Church played a very small role.

  • Theodora
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:12 p.m.

    The number of Mormon people in California is irrelevant. It's the amount of financial support that the Mormons donated to the "Yes on 8" campaign which has made them the target of protest. Try to use a little logic.

  • Wow
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:10 p.m.

    Over 800 comments on this article alone. I get the feeling that neither side is going to budge; yet both sides blame the other. I am convinced that the LDS church will not get the Lord to change his mind. I am convinced that gays/lesbians as a group are not going to quietly go away. What are we going to do?

  • Charlotte
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:02 p.m.

    To: not even a minority

    Modern research has concluded that between 2 and 7 percent of people are exclusively homosexual, not 1 in 3, as you stated.

    Even if it were lower than 1 percent, it is unconstitutional to vote to ratify legislation that oppresses a minority without the 2/3 majority of legislators at the very least. Our founding fathers knew this and designed our constitution for these very situations. It's Constitution 101. Prop 8 will never last.

  • Clear Thinker
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:01 p.m.

    Hey Warrior heart,

    The LDS Church has not done ANYTHING to promote hatred to these guys. The only thing the Church has done is to reaffirm their position that marriage should be between a man and a woman. It's amazing that we even have to define that, but this is how crazed the left has gotten.

    On the other hand, you've got these crazies running around, threatening lives, name calling (homophobic, bigoted, narrow-minded, etc.), parking vans outside of prop 8 supporters homes with signs accusing the occupants of being all kinds of things, vandalizing LDS temples, mocking doctrines and buildings that are sacred to LDS, threatening to hire private investigators to look into the lives of prop 8 supporters, and so on. Why? Because some LDS chose to exercize their constitutional rights of expression and political action?

    THIS IS TOLERANCE? THIS IS FREE SPEECH? The left has no intention of tolerance/free speech. They want us to accept their ideals, and we can just cram it. Well, for one, I don't accept that pathetic arrangement.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:01 p.m.

    Go get married in Mass. or Conn. it's still legal there. If gays want to get married, do it, I don't care, just don't bring your issues into the classroom and into my children's lives, they have enough to deal with, they don't need to hear about men being with men blah blah blah. I don't want to be the one to explain how that works because some teacher has to explain it in school

  • California - Yes on 8 Volunteer
    Nov. 8, 2008 9:00 p.m.

    I was happy to be a volunteer for the Yes on 8 campaign and to donate my time and money. People of all faiths joined with us to help pass this important proposition.

    I'm told there are about 750,000 LDS people in Calif. and there were over 5 million "yes" votes cast. Obviously there are other people who believe that traditional marriage is what they want for society.

    This is the SECOND Calif. vote! Prop 22 passed in 2000 at 61% and now again in 2008 at 52%!

    The African American vote was 7 to 3 in favor of this proposition. The Latino vote was 53% in favor of Prop 8.

    If Prop 8 had not passed I don't see all of us going up to West Hollywood, Long Beach, Laguna Beach or San Francisco to protest. We would accept the will of the people. Those protesting obviously are not. They were so convinced this would not pass.

    The people who are protesting have no idea how much support that people of other faiths are showing to those of us who are LDS during this time. They are shocked at the outlash toward the Mormons.

  • Nonsense
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:59 p.m.

    To: not even a minority

    If we follow your logic, why should California, with over 30 million residents, listen to a tiny sect like Mormonism? Get over it yourself!

  • Kim
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:57 p.m.

    "The ProtectMarriage coalition, which led the successful campaign to pass Proposition 8, was an historic alliance of people from every faith and ethnicity. LDS were included but so were Catholics and Jews, Evangelicals and Orthodox, African-Americans and Latinos, Asians and Anglos."

    Only 2% of the population of California are Mormons. That is a small part of the population. If LDS Church had that much power don't you think there would be a bigger percentage of LDS members in California? 52% of the population passed this law. Do the math 52%-2%(LDS)= 50% that is non LDS!

  • Jim
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:54 p.m.

    Between stealing, vandalism, slandering, attempted intimidation, death threats, singling out scapegoats, and other forms of hate, these people are starting to make totalitarian regimes look pathetic. The wiser step would have been simply to go to the California polling places and destroy any ballots with 'Yes' votes (which would have been congruent with their lack of respect for democracy).

  • ...
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:53 p.m.

    Marriage is a religous institution not a political. Twenty years ago the gay community called marriage an antiquated instition from the dark ages. So now they have to have it. What changed....oh that's right the money. Now they want the insurance money. So much for principles.

  • Sophie
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:53 p.m.

    To: A friend

    The LDS church was singled out because they gave the largest percentage of financial support to support prop 8 and were very public about it. Their intolerance simply had a boomerang effect.

  • It's time to worship our masters
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:48 p.m.

    A friend,

    "It is so amazing to me that the LDS Church was the only one singled out --there were many other religions that participated in the Prop 8 results--please lets at least be fair!!!!!"

    There is over 11 million Catholics in California compared to a mere 900,000 or so Mormons. The U.S. Conference of Bishops donated $200,000 in support of Prop. 8 while the LDS Church made a single in-kind donation of $2,078.97 to cover the travel costs of Church leaders who attended a meeting in California.

    There's a difference between targeting a Church who represents less than 2% of the population for supporting Prop. 8 while not protesting the Catholic Church that makes up about 34% of the population of California for its support of Prop. 8?

    They see the LDS Church as the low-hanging fruit which they can pick off to teach others that they will destroy anyone who doesn't bow down and worship them. The Church isn't afraid though and will not be intimidated. We see this for what it is. Intolerant bigoted tyrants who want to deny the majority its freedoms and rights by trying to change the law by minority fiat.

  • John
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:45 p.m.

    Gays have the same rights as everyone else, including marriage to an opposite-gender partner as is granted to everyone else. What they are demanding and trying to intimidate others for are special privileges to redefine society in their image. Why do they assume that their sexuality should give them special status above and beyond other Americans?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:42 p.m.

    Prop 8 passed! Time to accept it!
    You could always move to MASS to get married!
    Remember and never forget that, Marriage is ORDAINED OF GOD!
    We will keep all of you protestors in our prayers, God knows you need them!
    It's really sad to see the reaction be so hateful and violent especially in Los Angeles!
    By their fruits ye shall know them!!

  • not even a minority
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:41 p.m.

    The belief that 10 percent of the population is homosexual is based on discredited research done by Indiana University zoologist Dr. Alfred Kinsey in the mid-20th century. More recent research puts the number between 1 and 3 percent.
    Why should 1 - 3 percent of the US population tell the other 99-97 percent of us how we should perform our marriages.
    The state of California handled this correctly,
    52 percent said NO-
    Just ** LIVE WITH IT. **

  • A friend
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:29 p.m.

    It is so amazing to me that the LDS Church was the only one singled out --there were many other religions that participated in the Prop 8 results--please lets at least be fair!!!!! The LDS Church made a proclamation on the family and what constitutes a family long before Prop 8 was ever a consideration--why not defend a belief and not let a minority of people decide what is right and what is wrong!!! The LDS church has spoken--please respect its views.

  • These people are tyrants
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:29 p.m.

    Let's get real here,

    "There were about 11 million people who voted on this prop 8. Over 5.5 mill voted to over turn it. Do you really think the LDS church had that much influence over this."

    Not when we have less than a million members in California and the Church only made one in-kind donation of $2,078.97 to pay for the travel of Church leaders to attend a meeting in California.

    "There's probably not even one million members in that state."

    There isn't. There just a little over 900,000 and not all of them are qualified to vote, registered nor did all of them vote and some didn't support Prop. 8.

    "Marching on Temple Square over this result is just plan stupid by these folks."

    It also shows their willingness to terrorize anyone who disagrees with them and has the audacity to vote in a way they don't permit us to. Furthermore, our in-kind donation doesn't come anywhere near what the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops donated.

    As for individual Mormons choosing to donate to support Prop. 8. That is their right and the Church didn't force them to. I didn't donate a single dime to Prop. 8.

  • Brandon
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:18 p.m.

    I am all for civil unions myself, just as long as it's the only option for heterosexual couples as well.

  • Let's get real here
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:09 p.m.

    There were about 11 million people who voted on this prop 8. Over 5.5 mill voted to over turn it. Do you really think the LDS church had that much influence over this. There's probably not even one million members in that state. Most are just free thinkers and are not going to listen to the LDS church anyways. Most people voted yes to overturn it because that's they way they personally believe it should be. Marching on Temple Square over this result is just plan stupid by these folks.

  • ExMo Chad
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:06 p.m.


    Oregon celebrates pioneer day too. We are so glad they stopped in Utah.

  • MoHo
    Nov. 8, 2008 8:01 p.m.

    When the Church steps into the political arena, which is an unfair arena by definition, it should expect this sort of thing. No one made the Church be so public about Prop. 8 except the Church; it got itself into this mess.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:54 p.m.

  • They do to terrorize CA voters
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:54 p.m.


    "I for one find the Church's actions in this situation very hypocritical. They name their church after Jesus Christ yet there is absolutely nothing Christ-like about their behavior in this matter. Jesus Christ was a compassionate man who loved and accepted all-lepers,sinners, and homosexuals."

    Jesus didn't condone or approve of sin. He accepted people who were repentant of their sins and did not judge them unless they continued in sin.

    "If homosexuality is indeed wrong as the Church claims it to be, then homosexuals will be judged by God in the end. It is not the role of mere mortals to pass judgement on their own."

    But you seem intent on passing judgment on us but that is different isn't it because you are always right and those of us who disagree with you must be demonized even though the Church spent a mere 2,000 dollars while other religions spent 100 times that and I mean that literally since the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops donated $200,000.

    I have no problem with gays living their life as they choose but I will not stand by as they force their beliefs on others and try to terrorize the majority.

  • Civil Unions
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:46 p.m.

    How about we make "civil unions" the only thing the government does administer (for everyone) and then leave the churches to do whatever they wish? You could still give Catholic, Evangelical, etc. ministers the authority to perform legally-binding civil unions and then they can follow up with any type of ceremony they wish and call it whatever they like. Make everyone pay the same fees for a civil union license, and give everyone the same legal status, and everyone will have the same "civil right."

    Why are homosexuals so bent on co-opting the word "marriage"?

    This is not about civil rights as there are reasonable solutions (e.g. above) upon which a majority will agree, especially in California. (Try going down South with your tirade--good luck!.) This is all about "If you don't embrace my lifestyle, you are forcing your lifestyle on me!" Push people long enough and they will push back. Back off and talk.

    Unless your more moderate voices stand up in protest of the hateful extremists currently leading your rabble, you will set your "movement" back years. Cool off a bit and try to understand why you lost in three states. (Please don't conclude it was the Mormons!)

  • Bring it on dictator
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:43 p.m.


    "Good job showing the world you are a bunch of discriminatory, hateful people, who come from a long long history of abusive religions. I hope you get your tax exempt status pulled."

    For what? For our members voting in an election and donating of our own money to support those causes we believe in? The actual Church made a single in-kind donation of $2,078.97 to cover the travel of Church leaders who went to California to attend a meeting.

    "Shoving your beliefs down other peoples throats and denying them the same basic human rights other enjoy is disgusting."

    It's you who are shoving your belief down our throat and want to force the majority to obey you because you feel a minority has the right to change the law even though you aren't discriminated under it. It is disgusting and you are tyrant and a bigot. Now shut up and stop attacking those I love for our votes and our rights.

    What are you going to do next? Stone an atheist to death? Burn some women at the stake? Maybe start a mormon inquisition? Bravo."

    So that is how you want to play it. You terrorize us.

  • Christians have Civil Rights too
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:43 p.m.

    And Gays/Lesbians think that this is a matter of civil rights, what about the civil rights of Christians?????

    In Massachusetts, kindergarteners are read books about homosexuality ending with men kissing men. "The King and the King"
    One family wanted the ability to opt out on their children being inside the classroom when homosexuality was discussed and the school officials arrested the father. The parents are now home schooling their children.

  • Ogden Cares
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:24 p.m.

  • Warrior Heart
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:20 p.m.

    How can the Mormon church, or any church for that matter, claim to have a message of love and hope, when it chooses to make a minority feel unloved and hopeless? If you kick a dog, the dog will eventually bite. Why be surprised that a group that feels discriminated against is choosing to exercise their right to protest? Why keep kicking a minority group down in the name of love and hope? Where is the hope in this? Weren't we all made in "His image?" or did I miss the fine print somewhere in my bible that says "Love Thy Neighbor, unless they're gay." And did I also miss the part that says marriage is between "A man and as many women as he wants." If you want to talk about non-traditional marriage, the Mormon church defines it.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:19 p.m.

    "Separation of church and state" isn't in the constitution of the United States. Stop citing it as such.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:15 p.m.

    To the 3:21 commentator,
    Polygamy is illegal in Utah. It is banned by the Utah State Constitution, which may be the only state constitution that contains such a ban.
    Your comment is one of the most irrelevant ones I have read. The Utah State Constitution has banned plural marriage since it was first written in 1895.

  • Real Discrimination
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:15 p.m.

    RE: Mormons out | 6:03 p.m

    I hope you are a troll posting on the DN board because your company is going to have a lot of lawsuits coming their way. I have worked for many companies who are "diverse" and offer benefits to gay couples. It shows how petty you are if you are firing people based on their religion and not workplace performance.

    Get over it and move on gay marriage supporters. We are tired of you tearing down every single institution that doesn't believe or support your beliefs and behavior. I doubt the DN has this many gay readers. The pro-gay marriage posts on this article are from a small group of individuals and others who hope the novice message readers get pulled into believing their is a mass movement in Utah sympathetic to gay marriage.

    Your right to marry in California is a fluke due to judicial malpractice by judges who think they are smarter than everyone else in the state.

  • Aaron C.
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:11 p.m.

    PEOPLE! Pull it together! Take 5! We need to let this go and treat each other like HUMANS again!

    MORMONS: You got your "one woman one man" definition of marriage protected in one of the most liberal states in America. Nice one.

    GAY COMMUNITY: "The Church" has, by their involvement, made certain that people EVERYWHERE will be extremely vigilant the next time a stunt like this gets pulled. And it's likely prop 8 will eventually be ruled unconstitutional when it inevitably gets to the courts.

    In the meantime, can we please remember that we are all US citizens entrusting our future well being in one another? Is it so much to ask?

    The tone of the majority of these posts (from both sides) is disturbing. At best.

  • David S-to Mormons out
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:07 p.m.

    You're still invited to attend church at any Mormon chapel you wish.

    And if any of those triples got left behind, you really ought to spend an hour or two browsing and reading.

    A more important day awaits all of us than the day we get hired or fired from some job.

  • Yo Ralphie!
    Nov. 8, 2008 7:04 p.m.

    Our erstwhile Mayor has shown that he will only be Mayor for the special interest groups. Yo Ralphie! Way to be self-serving and let anarchy abound!

  • NowAntiMormon
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    Good job showing the world you are a bunch of discriminatory, hateful people, who come from a long long history of abusive religions. I hope you get your tax exempt status pulled. Shoving your beliefs down other peoples throats and denying them the same basic human rights other enjoy is disgusting.
    What are you going to do next? Stone an atheist to death? Burn some women at the stake? Maybe start a mormon inquisition? Bravo.

  • ProgressivePerson
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:52 p.m.

    I for one find the Church's actions in this situation very hypocritical. They name their church after Jesus Christ yet there is absolutely nothing Christ-like about their behavior in this matter. Jesus Christ was a compassionate man who loved and accepted all-lepers,sinners, and homosexuals. I find it hard to beleive that he would support such blatant discrimination against his brothers and sisters. It is time for the Church and it's members to start practicing what they preach. If homosexuality is indeed wrong as the Church claims it to be, then homosexuals will be judged by God in the end. It is not the role of mere mortals to pass judgement on their own.

  • 1,000 posts
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:41 p.m.

    Come on people we can hit the 1,000 comment mark. I am glad to see the online protest and anti-protest.

  • Aids guy
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:31 p.m.

    Coming to get you.

  • Yes, "I am, I am"
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:30 p.m.

    I agree with you! Isn't it interesting how the previously persecuted become the persecutors?

  • Being gay is a sin
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:28 p.m.

    It's in the bible. Crack it open and read it. NO truely religous person will disregard this doctrine, because if they disregard this sin they are wolves in sheeps clothing. BEING GAY IS A SIN PERIOD. IT'S IN THE BIBLE.

  • Sweet Low
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:27 p.m.

    Why does California celebrate Pioneer Day?

    Because the mormons did not make it that far!

  • David S
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:21 p.m.

    To my replier:

    I acknowledge your love of family and would never say homosexuals don't feel it. The question is whether we continue the legacy of love of family--of grandfathers, parents, children--or cut it off.

    Tradition family is the clear, guaranteed, sure-fire, time-tested, unquestioned-for-millennia provider of the human need for love--love that requires sacrifice, duty, loyalty (to one's entire family--to FAMILY itself!) humility, unselfishness, submission, AND endurance THROUGH THE GENERATIONS.

    It is the KNOWN course.

    Nothing in society is more sure than this!

    So for what would we put this, our very foundation, into question? For what better possible course would we risk teaching our children that there is a different--a better way--for anyone?

  • @ Plain and Simple
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:10 p.m.

    Well, for starters, up until last Tuesday gay couples had the legal right to marry in California- now they don't. This proposition removed those legal rights. Don't you consider removing rights once determined to be equal as discriminatory? Marriage, along with being a symbolic act to formalize a commitment made by a couple, is first and foremost a civil issue. Each and every marriage starts with a license granted by the state, not their church. Once issued, that couple can then choose whether or not to have a religous ceremony. Irregardless of their choice, their relationship is granted recognition, rights and protections by the government. My partner and I have been together for 25 years and as law abiding, tax paying citizens would also like our government to extend us these rights and protections. We have no interest in trying to change anyone's religous beliefs, we just want the ability to persue our own.

  • White-collar vandalism
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:05 p.m.

    Although I find it repulsive that the LDS Church encouraged its members to donate to a proposition that legislates morality, I also find it disappointing that protesters would vandalize private property. Sure, some of them have had a basic right ripped from them, but there's fault on both sides.

    Prop 8 protesters, keep it civil.
    Prop 8 promoters, you've already vandalized the rights of numerous couples.

    (Response to "Let's just hope that the Salt Lake City officials (unlike those in LA) have the guts to confront and prosecute those who deface the property of the LDS church during these "peaceful protests.")

  • Glen Hufstetler
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:03 p.m.

    It is interesting that those who supported Prop 8 are considered bigots,and narrow-minded fanatics, while those who opposed prop. 8 are poor picked on victims why is it that the minority feeling and positions are always more important than the Majority. Why is the Christian concept of a proper family so important to the non-believers anyway? Prayer forbidden schools, is offensive to me, taking in God We Trust is offensive to me as is Gay marriage, I believe these feelings are those of most of the people in this Country

  • Mormons out
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:03 p.m.

    I'm Director of HR for a large corporation in Utah. Every time a resume come across my desk with clear indication of LDS (ie missionary, member) I throw it in the garbage!

    I suggest all those that have hiring authority in their organizations do the same.

    Last week we had a company wide layoff. I used the opportunity to get rid of several mormons that proudly displayed a triple combination or picture of Jesus in their office/cubical. I expect more layoffs to come and more mormons to go. :)

    This is my own private way to fight the battle one person at a time.

  • Brandon
    Nov. 8, 2008 6:00 p.m.

    Remember Anita Bryant. Pie anyone?

    It's too bad Utah doesn't have fine enough soil to export any produce, so a boycott similar to that of the Florida Orange in the 1970's could take effect. Or is there something Utah does contribute that we could all live without (besides intolerance)?

  • Tradition doesn't justify it
    Nov. 8, 2008 5:59 p.m.

    Thousands of years defined racism, and fortunately it has been somewhat curtailed by civil rights legislation and sound thinking.

    Your claim that laws are made because of experience is flawed. Just because laws are made doesn't mean that they are correct. Think about women's suffrage, segregation, Hitler's regime, etc.

    And gays aren't asking for any special rights--just the rights to marry whom they choose.

    (Response to "Being gay doesn't doesn't mean you get special rights. Thousands of years have defined marriage and now you want to change it. Laws are made because of experience. Nuff said.")

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 5:53 p.m.

    I support your right to be gay - more chicks for the rest of us. Same with butch lesbians. I'm also in favor of lipstick lesbians, but for different reasons.

    I wish everyone would keep their sexuality private. I worked with a gay man for five years and never knew it - it was a non-issue. However, there is another gay man I work with and every other sentence out of his mouth refers in some way to his homosexuality.

    We don't hold hetero-only parades and events. Heteros don't talk in a "special" way to distinguish themselves. Heteros don't sue their former employers for wrongful termination based on them not being gay.

    Gays - you are an extreme minority of the population. You are not being discriminated against. You can shop at the straight-stores, go to baseball games and concerts, sit in whichever seat you wish on the bus. You can't marry each other because you and your partner are of the same sex. That's the law of the land and you're going to have to live with it for now or find a new land. Nobody said you can't be gay. You're no worse off than you were before.

  • a. rod
    Nov. 8, 2008 5:53 p.m.

    who writes this stuff? were they even there? i was, and i can tell the protest was anything than peaceful. we were in seven and we were being attacked from everywhere. as for the police being prepared, they didn't even have shields. if the crowd wanted to break into temple square, no one would have stopped them. it is shameful to portray this protest as a peaceful gathering. it was a hate driven riot

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 8, 2008 5:52 p.m.

    Do you heterosexuals really believe that the kids of the parents who divorce at nearly half the rate of marriages are A-OK without either a mommy or a daddy?

    In other words, don't meddle in gays having a right to marry when you cannot show that "traditional" marriage is working anyway. You can be sure that gay couples who have a child are more likely to care for them because they have to do more to obtain them.

    In other words, just live and let live, and don't throw your millions toward lies-infested propaganda that legislates morality.

    Response to "Do you homosexuals REALLY believe that kids are 100% A-OK without either a mommy or a daddy?"

  • Missourian
    Nov. 8, 2008 5:51 p.m.

    To John C. .... remember Governor Boggs?

  • Re: Steve 3:25 p.m.