The only thing i wonder about is where did this money that the church donated
come from? I think marriage is a sacred thing between man and woman, but did
the donation come from MY tithing money that i've given to the church for the
last twenty years of my life?
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I will speak to
my Brothers and Sisters in the church who are not happy with our leaders
position against same sex marriage. Why dont you make a list of all the things
you do not like about the Church and send it to President Monson, maybe he could
bypass the Lords council and run the Church your way. Did you raise you hand and
sustain him as prophet, seer and revelator? My loyalty is to the Redeemer Jesus
Christ. I have pledged to be united with Christ in voting against same sex
marriage. Our Father has made it clear to all of us that joy comes to those who
follow him. Christ always reminds me to love those who disagree with him. Christ
also tells me to never deviate from his commandments. (He has commanded all of
us NOT to practice same sex marriage). You must speak to him about this. My
stand to vote no on same sex marriage is definite and immoveable. I do what is
right and let the consequence follow. Tom Wall
Leave Proposition 8 to Californians. Then tell me again how my heterosexual
marriage is in anyway threatened by homosexual marriage. Be prepared to cite
compelling evidence of such threats. What, you can't find any? Surprise! It's
just like it was with interracial marriage. The majority of Americans opposed
it, now it's legal. And, guess what? Nobody was harmed by two loving,
committed adults tying the knot. If you want to protect marriage why don't you
look for ways to reduce the divorce rate. Perhaps protest outside those
drive-thru wedding chapels in Las Vegas. Meanwhile, keep government out of my
bedroom. I'm voting No on Proposition 8, because it's discriminatory and
morally wrong to limit someone else's right to marry.
I recently moved my family to Utah from an overseas corporate assignment. I have
gotten to know many of my LDS neighbors. One couple sent the missionaries and we
welcomed them. They visited several times, gave us personal assignments (I read
up to Alma in the Book of Mormon-Nothing about gays so far), and invited us to
attend a meeting.I have asked the missionaries not to visit for the
purpose of conversion any more. They can come as friends and to chat, but I am
not willing to have my family become a part of an organization that actively
campaigns to deny gays equal protection. It is so clearly bigoted and hurtful to
do this in my personal opinion. I will continue to develop close
friendships with my LDS neighbors and co-workers, but at this point I can't
imagine why I would want to expose my kids to such teachings. Not smoking and
drinking is great, but it seems more morally significant how one treats others.
I lived in California for a while, and if I were still there, I
would fight Prop 8 and vote against it.
When the Church published "proclamation to the world" it drew a line in the
sand. The Church of Jesus Christ stated the Eternal truth, Marriage is only
between a man and a woman. Who's side are we on? The Lords, or the side that
wont win? That and marriage exists as God's permission to procreate. If we
couldn't procreate there would be no reason for marriage. Thankfully we can
procreate hence we need marriage. A male and male cannot procreate, neither can
a woman with a woman. If the "Couple" cannot procreate why would they want or
need to be married?Elder Oaks spoke at a fireside here at BYU-I, every
LDS member needs to vote in favor of prop 8 and 102(Arizona). Coming from an
Apostle IT IS A COMMANDMENT TO SUPPORT MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN ONLY.
Isn't "practicing gay Mormon" an oxymoron? I'm just sayin'...
To whoever wrote this and titled it "To Sireofmany". Please read about the
great and spacious building in the Book of Mormon and perhaps think about what
you just wrote.
Everyone is born with tendencies toward particular passions and urges. I don't
deny that the feelings you have were not your choice. I made no choice to be
heterosexual. One person may predisposed to anger, another to hate, or
impatience, or depression. The list goes on and on, both on the positive and
negative side. That is part of life. If you are Mormon then you know God has
given us direction designed to effect our happiness and progress us toward
perfection. So you know the angry person must learn to control his anger, the
hateful person must learn to control his hate; we must all learn to control our
passions and urges which God has told us will not support our eternal happiness
and our progress toward perfection.
I am a gay Mormon that lives in So. california. My partner and I have lived
together for many years. I visited a L.D.S. therapist a number of years ago,
and he told me that i was born this way, he would not go on record saying
that...but it is true, it is what i believe. My life is not a Choice.....i say
life, not lifestyle. My partner and I live our lives not our lifesytle. It is
NOT a moral issue. It is a political issue. WAKE UP MORMONS!!!! LET US
I live in California. #1, it is not embarrassing having my picture on the news
or my name on the donation list. Our wave parties on the corners of our cities
are a lot of fun. 85 - 98% of the honks and thumbs up signal to us that there
ARE many californians who support tradional marriage. It will show at the
polls.I for one, am very appreciative of any church that donates in
support of Prop. 8. Thank youJust remember that the TV, Newspapers
and other persons will try to embarrass, but their hate and love for contention
is so vivid that they end up embarrassing themselves.
I, too, support Proposition 8. My friends who oppose the measure know of my
feelings. My standing in the community has not changed at all. Opposition to
the church from some groups has increased, but collaboration with the church
from other groups has also increased. The press is no more antagonistic than it
has ever been.Throughout my life, the Church has occasionally spoken
out on moral issues that were on the ballot--like gambling and the sale of
alcohol in grocery stores. Before my time, the Church has spoken about slavery,
Prohibition, and religious freedom. In each case, people (usually those who
oppose the Church's view) have complained about the separation of church and
state, which has been considered in the courts and found legal.Traditionally marriage is so important to LDS thought that it is inconceivable
that the Church would not speak out on this issue, regardless of the
consequences.As the words of the old hymn advise us, "Do what is
right, let the consequence follow." The only right thing is to support
In response "To sireofmany": I don't know where you live, but I live in
California and am in total support of Proposition 8 and the LDS Church's stance
on this issue. I have not lost "my public standing" or "seen my reputation go up
in flames." I am proud to stand with my fellow citizens, including members of
many churches and other organizations, who recognize the importance of
protecting and defining marriage. We are only trying to do what many other
states have already done by defining marriage as being between a man and a
woman. I am glad to be a member of a church that is not afraid to take a stand
on one of the most important moral issues of our time. I am proud to be part of
the California LDS members who have sacrificed time and means to support this
proposition. My arm was never twisted to do what I did. My question is, why is
the LDS Church the only one that is criticized for suporting this proposition.
What about the Catholics, the Calvary Chapel and all the other evangelical
churches supporting Prop 8? If they spent $2000 would there be such an uproar?
The Church should get more involved in issues. The only thing they can't do is
endorse specific candidates.
Let me try to put my last statement in a way where the stakes are clear,
without my making statements that go beyond the know. If proposition 8
passes victory against "King and King" will still take effort, if it fails, than
the implementation of a pro-homosexual curriculum in California Public Schools
is a done deal. This is why courts should not legislate from the bench.
Policies that have braod implications should be enacted legislatively where all
parties that have any interest in the issue and not just those directly effected
by the case at hand can make their voices known.
Our only chance to stop the teaching of same-gender marriage as part of
equality curriculums is the passing of Proposition 8. There is still a chance
that equality curriculums will include such, and there will be more strugle, but
if proposition 8 fails, then frontal assaults on morality in the schools are
We do let people live as they choose.The mormons are not.The forcing their beliefs on everyone else.The mormons want
marriage to suit themselves.They have already had firemen forced
march in there pioneer day paradesmormon pride parades.The want
mormonism and their literature taught and read in the close proximity to
schools, so all children either accept it, tolerate it, or embrace it.They want all organizations to be forced to accept or tolerate and not speak
out against it. Or they will call anyone who does a bigot and worse
names and they want go after anyone who speaks out against them for hate speech
and have them censored or punished.This has happen in other
countries including Iran, it must be stop now or it will happen here.So lets be real honest about who is forcing who's beliefs on us.
We are letting people live as they believe.The Gays are not.The forcing their beliefs on everyone else.The Gays want
redefine marriage to suit themselves.They have already hadd firemen
forced march in theor parades,The want homosexuality and their
literature taught and read in the schools, so all children either accept it,
tolerate it, or embrace it.They want all organizations to be forced
to accept or tolerate and not speak out against it. and not to be alloewed to
use public facilities or recieve public or private money.Or they
will call anyone who does a bigot and worse names and they want go after anyone
who speaks out against them for hate speeech and have them censored or
punished.This has happen in other countries including our neighbor
canada, it must be stop now or it will happen here.So lets be real
honest about who is forcing who's befiefs on us.
SORRY Sireofmany: I was responding to "To Sireofmany" and not you,
"Sireofmany". My apologies for the confusion.
Proposition 8 will do NOTHING to protect children from being taught about gay
marriage. That is the most ridiculous reason I have ever heard.What?
Are you going to tell me next that Obama is the anti-Christ?!
Voting to outlaw something is multiple levels of magnitude different than voting
to amend the Contitution to allow discrimination. Please, people, try to step
outside the Stepford mentality.Some others do not believe the same way you
do. Unless they are harming you and yours in some way, they should be allowed
to live in accordance with their beliefs. All have free agency and it is clear
throughout the scriptures that it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to live in accordance
with their conscience. Who knows what legally allowing discrimination will lead
to next. This is a very fundamental issue in direct violation to the Founding
Fathers vision of freedom. If you want a theocracy - have it in Utah.
California and the rest of the US are democratic.
Prop 8 is not a political issue, it is a moral issue and this Church, as with
any other church not only has the right but the responsibility to speak out on
moral issues. The 61% of the voters in California decided with Proposition 22 in
2000 that marriage shall be between one man and one woman. This past May the
California supreme court by a 4 to 3 margin trumped the will of the people.
Prop 8 is a constitutional ammendment to define marriage as it has been defined
by every viable society since the beginning of time. The LDS church is joining
with other churches, both catholic and evangelical to defend families and the
institution of marriage, just as it did in the year 2000 with Prop 22. We who
are publicy supporting Prop 8 are not as To Sireofmany says "risking their
public standing following the counsel of the Church." We are not "watching our
reputations go up in flames as we earn the scorn of our neighbors and fellow
citizens by supporting an unpopular ballot initiative." The public response is
possitive and even if it weren't, who cares. You do what is right. This is
I live in California, am LDS and support the Church in this effort. I have had
my yard signs stolen and egged. Other people have been sworn at and threatened.
This issue will have serious repercussions for all of us regardless of the
outcome of the vote. So those of you sitting in Utah had better wake up and pay
attention. Some things are just too important to sit on your brains and complain
To the 11:55 commentator, You should actually listen to the letter. At
least this year the First Presidency clearly and unequivacably stated that the
church retains the right to take stands on moral issues. This is a moral
issue, and so the church has and will continue to take a stand on it.
To sireofmany at 10:54, Yes, Joe Dobb did not mean to attack you, he
was respinding to the person who attacked you. This goes back to my view
that what is needed on these boards is registration of user names so there is
logic in who we are responding to. I agree with your initial comment that
to say someone other than the First Presidency runs the church is downright
wrong. On the other hand I think many people do not understand how
much of the leadership of the church is in the hands of bishops and stake
presidents, and how truly competent these men are.
To the 8:34 commentator, If proposition 8 is unpopular, than why have
similar proposals been overwhelmingly passed in every state where they have come
to a vote? Anyway, I think you need to stop following the teachings of
Nehor. The goal is not for the church to be popular, but for it to teach the
truth. Homosexuality remains a sin, no matter how much you try to
redefine it. Having same-gender attraction is not by itself sinful, but
homosexual actions are sinful, always have been and will be as long as men have
bodies which they can defile by such actions.
Where has freedom gone? Will government force our patriates that stand up for
truth and justice to cringe and stand down? What have we become? Have we
forgotten our childlike attributes of kindness and fairplay? Shame on those
that are forcing our names into the open to determine whether or not we have
skeletons in our closet to discredit our belief systems just because we have a
higher sense of moral turpetude. The same moral fiber that our country was
built on. Have you not seen the decay in the last century? Can you say that it
is good? I would say let us vote without condemnation or repute!! Do not take
the signs from our yards!! Do not take away our liberties!! Do not spray paint
our homes with your vulgarities!! If you wish to fight, have courage enough to
do it in my face, don't hide in the darkness and become as the gadianton
robbers!!! Stand up for truth and justice, quit demeaning and abasing
To the 12:47 commentator, The LDS Church meeting with a private
political group has no relevance to the seperation of church and state.
Protectmarriage is a private, not a government institution. Vote yes on
8, it is our only chance for freedom.
that I'm in favor or against proposition 8, but each year aren't we read letters
from the pulpit that the church (LDS) will not be involved in politics or in
advising the members on how to vote. With such said, and maybe I'm wrong, how
does this stand up against the church making a donation on this matter. Doesn't
that contradict what they say during each election? And what about the calls
made from members at the churches request, the visits by church leaders to the
people in California. Just seems like a contradiction of what we've always been
told about the elections. Anyone care to enlighten???
The statements by Dodd and Patrick and Tanner are exactly how i feel!!!!We live in a day where evil is called good and good is called evil. For many, it's time to decide if they are truly on the Lord's
"side"....despite persecution. Time for "the sifting." Those who
follow God's prophet need not fear the reputation of His church. NO unhollowed
hand can stop the work!!!! It's high adventure from here on out
to Joe Dodd:Are you delusional? Read my comment. I said no such
thing. Someone responded to me and maybe you are mistaking their response as
something I said. I am faithful LDS. I teach Institute. I am not anti
religion in any manner. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you
attack someone who is on your side. But, if you are that blind that you cannot
recognize your allies maybe you are not on the correct side either.
People get so worked up about the separation of church and state. However, you
will find it no where in official government documents, like the
Constitution.The entire idea is Jeffersons, which he laid down in a
letter, which is meant to keep religion free from the state and not the state
free from religion.The founders clearly knew that this Government
could not stand without a religious people.Please do some studying
before spouting incorrect ideas.
If a person or entity (i.e. the LDS Church)of integrity and strong moral
character has true convictions in a matter of great value to them, they will
support and defend those convictions regardless of the consequences.I
think the LDS Church's actions in this matter is an example of this.I
applaud the church's (or anyone else's)efforts to defend their convictions in a
Last time I voted it is a secret balot. I don't think that has changed. So if
I were to vote in favor of Prop 8 there is only one person that would know.
Me!Now if I made it publicly known that I supported Prop 8 and
someone thought differently of me who cares. I am standing up for my right to
believe what I want. I am not going to change my beliefs to meet what some
legislating judges or anyone else says should be right. I shall always believe
that sexual realtions between two members of the same gender is wrong
morally."For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ"
Sireofmany: Are you delusional? PR has nothing to do with the will of God.
Either you believe in God and the TRUTHS he has revealed or you don't. If you
don't, best of luck!If you do then you really need to wake up and make an
attempt at intellectual honesty.God made his point with Sodom and
Gommorrah. This isn't an LDS issue. It's a Christian issue. All TRUE Chritians
are fundamentally opposed to the gay lifestyle and all that it entails, yet we
do our best to be kind, tolerant, and respectful to the person. Not perfect,
but striving to be.Why won't all the ANTI Religion fanatics be honest?
This is just one more hammer for you to attempt to batter all religion with, in
the hopes that you can someday feel better about yourself.
I agree with Dodd, there's much more below the surface, than what people want to
face. But all will end, just as past civilizations have.
You are absolutely right that the Church's Media Relations Dept is obviously not
calling the shots on the Church's support for California Proposition 8.
Otherwise a PR disaster of this magnitude would not be happening. There is no way that the Media Relations Dept would allow the LDS Church make
such clumsy, ill advised move and risk its image, reputation and public goodwill
by backing such a controversial issue that troubles so many people. Proposition
8 is clearly despised not only by millions of California citizens, but by
millions of people living in thousand communities around the world who care
deeply about protecting civil rights everywhere.I feel bad for the
thousands of California LDS members who are risking their public standing
following the counsel of the Church. They are watching their reputations go up
in flames as they earn the scorn of their neighbors and fellow citizens by
supporting an unpopular ballot initiative that although they may feel personally
uncomfortable supporting, head for certain defeat.
This report simply shows that the church is following the letter of the law in
its efforts to support California's Proposition 8 initiative. Some church
representatives travelled to California to meet with other groups in support of
the initiative. So the church reports that it covered their travel expenses.Most people would see this report as an effort by the church to keep
itself totally in compliance with all legal requirements, however small. If the
church didn't file this report and someone from the other side found out, the
opposition would make a big deal about it.So, I say, good for the
church; it's clearly squeaky clean in its compliance with all legal
The Church should definitely stand for something.Any issue can become
political. 50 years ago, people would have laughed in your face if you said gay
people would have the legal right to marry.The point is, religious issues
are all being attacked and politicized. The Church didn't move toward politics.
Quite the opposite--the world is attempting to undermine all things religious
in an attempt to squash the very thing that makes them feel guilty about their
You don't know what you're talking about. You seem to be scrambling for reason
to make yourself feel better. It's one thing for the Church to donate to
candidates and lobby lawmakers. That's fine under the IRS rules. When they go
directly to voters, that's active campaigning and a clear mingling of church in
the world of politics. Now, this issue is obviously political and moral, and
church members should vote according to what they believe in - whether that be
what the church says about the issue or not. But they should not be spoken down
to or told to vote one way by their leaders.
These funds should be taxed. I don't understand why they are not paying taxes
for these monies paid.Please explaint to me.
to Paperboy:What an inane comment. Do you actually believe The
Media Relations Department is the decision making body for the church? You
really need to get your medications checked.
I think it is VERY sad that the church involves itself in politics. I think they
will see the back lash when their proposition fails to pass. I hope it will lead
to a better treatment of LDS members who are gay and lesbian.
This isn't erosion of the wall between Church and State. If the state somehow
endorsed the LDS Church, or if the LDS Church became the effective government,
that would be erosion of the wall. But this? Regardless of tax laws, this isn't
erosion of that wall in any meaningful sense. The purpose of voting
has always been for the people to express their opinion about what is best for
society. That's precisely what the LDS are doing, along with any other
conscientious person. That their opinion stems from their religious beliefs has
nothing to do with it. The idea that people should as a rule keep their religion
out of politics is hogwash that no founding father or intellectually honest
person would ever agree with.
It will be interesting to learn which LDS leaders attended the meeting. Were the
Church representatives General Authorities, Church Attorneys or representatives
from the Church's Media Relations Department, the real decision makers
This is a big story, despite the relatively small contribution amount mentioned
in the article. There is bound to be some kind of a backlash from the public
regarding the perceived erosion of the wall between Church and State, especiall
given the favorable tax treatment the LDS Church enjoys. I've never seen the LDS
church get such negative PR. A bit of payback, perhaps?