Polygamy should be encouraged, not prosecuted.
Children are more valuable than money, and I am sure many people inside and
outside the polygamist community would give up luxuries in favor of more
children.I know that because there are always more parents wanting
to adopt than children available.
//Who can afford 30 children. maybe Bill Gates but I dont see any pligs owning
fortune 500 companies.//Come on, is that the best argument you can
muster? Maybe you should look into what companies have Saudi investors...
John Lambert, you're probably right. I haven't read her book, and I hope there's
a lot more fact-checking than in her nonsense articles for the Huffington Post,
but I'm not holding my breath. I knew nothing about the FLDS before April, and
although I don't think they're perfect, the more I learn, the more
sensationalist and inaccurate a lot of the criticisms of them prove to be.
child support? Thats called genocide. I think you should go live in another
country for the lie you just told!
Hmm, when the man has 6 wives and 30 children, who ends up paying for the
children? the taxpayers do. Who can afford 30 children. maybe Bill Gates but I
dont see any pligs owning fortune 500 companies. Polygamy is fine, just do it in
Thanks for your analysis LAMBERT....you drove home several points.
The threat of an flds voteinc bloc on itizens of ElDorado and Sleicher County
was brought up early in this affair. Many citizens wrote local papers
complaining and Rep. Hildabrand made mention of a flds Bloc as one more reason
for his legislation. The information presented by citizens as well as
Hildibrand had the same source and things went well beyond reality as we are all
now aware......five flds members are registered voters in Schleicher County. As a Texan I am well aware of county political structire and worst case
the flds would have been able to control one od four county precincts... hardly
a threat except to the existing Sheriff and one county officer.
Targeting ex-flds who make accusations that amount to wild speculation
would be a gteat use of police resources. Targeting Flora for
kidnapping young girls could be at the head of the list an I suggest Dan Fischer
be added to the list of deadbeat Dads. Eliminate the source of
misinformation and bingo.....devote the rest of the resources on perverts of
Targeting Fundamentalists who marry underage girls is alot like targeting
Homosexuals who only target young boys....Perhaps you should target all forms of
abnormal destructive behavior.....anything less is a moving target!
I love it when Takashi gets into a thread. He never opens his mouth but that
smart and well-thought out stuff comes out. Would that all bloggers did the
same thing. Google him and read his stuff.I currently live in a
culture that polygamy exists and multiple partners without marriage is frowned
upon (Central East Africa). I do not advocate polygamy, but I sure as heck
think that a man making babies with 4-6 women has a much more detrimental effect
on society than it does. I also happen to have investigated many instances of
ID theft. There are thresh-holds of what the US Attorney's office will accept
with this crime. And that thresh-hold is different in many parts of the
country. It is determined by resources. I am sure that the same is true with
most crime to include this one. Prosecute the crimes in the plig community and
leave the bedroom alone unless you want to do every bedroom.I go
along with the guy talking about the Islamic marriages in NYC. Prosecute them
and then you can come out to Utah and tell us what we need to do with our
The deeper I delve into the background of Ms. Hamilton the more I realize that
the Deseret News was probably wise in not telling her background, because if
they had any lover of religious freedom would have great fear. She thinks
religious freedom is the freedom of government from religion, not the freedom of
religion from government. She thinks there should be no restriction on
givernment suppression and regulation of religion. She has also denounced
the Catholics on the Supreme Court for attending a mass that urges people to act
uprightly and ethically when deciding law. She believes that the
religious liberty of offie holders should be more restricted than that of
Americans at large.
Thankyou Raymond for your heads up on Ms. Hamilton. I did a deeper look
at her background. I have just began it, but I have already found that she was
disengenous in her comments at the University of Utah. She said she felt
that Utah had an extremely short statue of limitations on child abuse. What she
forgot to mention was that she wants to eliminate the statue of limitations for
child abuse. She should at least make it clear that she wants to get rid of the
statute of limitations entirely, because the way she presented the issue it made
it seem she had an idea of what a good statute of limitations is that coincides
with accepted notions on the issue, while in fact she wants to eliminate such a
Now we have the fantastic claim that Obamas father was a
polygamist.......could things get stranger. What is it about polygamy
that brings out the sex and or religious police. Pretty soon cancer will be
blamed on polygamy and halloween will be forbiden untill only monogamous
households can be identified. Did anyone hear the latest accusation
about FLDs being responsible for the economic mess we are in.
Assuming Joey is right about what Ms. Hamilton advocates to crack down on
polygamy, why does she not first try to get New York City to do such police
watches on Muslim men to catch the many who are involved in polygamy? I
also wonder what people would find if they compared the statements of LDS Church
leaders about polygamy and homosexuality since 1990. I think they would find 0
references to needs to be kind or compassionate specifically to polygamists but
many on the issue of homosexuals. I understand why this is, because there is
more anger that gets directed at homosexuals in some ways, especially because of
activities of groups like GLSEN, but it goes to show that accusations about the
church's position are usually built on something other than reality. I
have to say I am not in anyway saying that anger or hate towards people based on
homosexual actions or feelings is OK, I am just saying that in our society it is
more likely to occur.
The last question is why does Utah prosecute its polygamists on illicit
sexual relations with minors but California and Minnesota fail to do the same
with their polygamists. The answer to this question is the exact
opposite of what many people claim to be the situation. It is because the vast
majority of Utah's population is LDS, not inspite of it, that the FLDS get
prosecuted. This is a complexed system, and is not a direct result of
religious bias. It is what I will call religioun caused awareness.
There are actually two factors. On one hand the fact that the Latter-day Saints
have a historical connection to polygamy causes them to be more aware of it. The second is that since the enemies of the church constantly accuse it of
being in collaboration with the polygamists, the church has to proactively and
vocally denounce such things. However I think the basic problem is the
anti-establishment view. As long as it is just some immigrants with no clear
leader doing something people do not mind, but when it is people who can buy
property, protest and prosecution ensue.
There are two more points. One actually is pointed out by the Hmong
hater. The Hmongs are poor. The Hmongs are living in squalor. In the
case of the FLDS and even more so some other polygamist groups in Utah, most of
the people are not living high on the hog. However, Warren Jeffs seemed to be.
How much this was really the case I do not know, but the people who want to see
all of Jeffs' lieutenants locked up until they die, fuel their cries of
"slavery" by claiming that the Polygamist men are getting rich off of the sweet
of their women and children. To these people the Polygocracy that runs the FLDS
church is similar to the Slavocray of the ante-bellum south. Hmongs are
not a unified group, with clear assesets and stucture to destroy, the FLDS are.
In some ways, at least the fact that Hamilton spends her energy
attacking the FLDS and other polygamist groups shows the extent to which
anti-establishment views still florish in the United States. Anti-clericalism
is still alive and well. There is another issue I will try to analyze.
The Hmongs are no where near taking over the electorate in any area. The FLDS
at the YFZ were very close to doing so. Although some people think of Minnesota
as being as homogenoeous before the Hmongs came as the West Texas county was
before the YFZ ranch was built, the Farmer Labor party of Minnesota had a very
different philosophy than did the political leaders in west Texas. The
fact that the governor of Minnesota made a proactive decision to invite the
Hmongs there also complicates the issue. The Hmong related dynamic are
different in Northern Wisconsin, Fresno, other areas of California, Detroit and
southern Macomb County and elsewhere than in Minnesota. Secondly the
Hmongs are not as reclusive as the FLDS. This is even more so since they have
tended to go to more urban areas where friendliness is less, and have not built
large, self contained ranches. As you can tell, none of these things I have
identified have to deal with ilegal activities and none of them really explain
different treatment in Utah at all. I know I am being like Monty Pythons
inquisition and coming up with more points as I go along.
Marci Hamilton DOES get into court a lot, representing local governments that
enact zoning ordinances that discriminate against churches and synagogues. Her
basic philosophy (in her columns for the Writ opinion page at Findlaw.com) is
that churches and religious should have NO special status under the law. She
basically would like to erase the "free exercise" clause from the First
Amendment. There are laws against bigamy, which is contracting an
apparently legal marriage with more than one spouse. However, the polygamists
have figured out that they are not committing bigamy if they do not hold
themselves out as legally marrying their additional wives. Indeed, as others
have noted, they are in exactly the same legal position as the drug dealers in
many inner cities who have children with several women, and who are even worse
because they provide little financial support. If Marci Hamilton is attacking
sex with multiple partners, and not just churches who endorse a form of it, she
should be advocating prosecution of such "serial fathers". Monogamists who
don't "monog" (like Bill Clinton) have no moral superiority to polygamists.
To the 12:42 commentator, I think the one with racial animosity is
you. There have been people give speeches urging the end to the US
allowing immigration or at least major cut backs in it because of the Hmongs,
which is often a misnomer, because Hmongs are a very small percentage of all
immigrants. Beyond this, by no means do all Hmong pracitice polygamy, and
I have known unmarried Hmong women who were 20. Lastly, I think you fail
to realize why the FLDS are prosecuted. Although anti-Mormon bias may play into
it slightly I think there are two other factors involved. One is that
since the FLDS are citizens they can vote and change the political makeup of
areas. Although the Homongs are havily concentrated in areas like St. Paul,
these are big cities where the Hmongs, while clearly the largest immigrant group
(at least for the first 20 years of their presence, the story is different with
the large influx of people from the Horn of Africa to the Twin Cities of Late)
and generally making up most of the population in the areas of non-European
ancestry. I will explain more.
who cares if consenting adults get married to more than one person? Who does it
hurt? No one.Hopefully at some point they will raise some children
that can actually think for themselves and they'll get out of there pronto. And if not? Who cares? What's a few hundred more dueling banjos, in
the big picture? As long as they keep them hidden in the desert and out of
general population, they can't really do any damage to the normal gene pools...
Can't prosecute because there is no evidence and in the light of
consensual sex ruleings the prosecution of pligs is a waste of money. How
about a law that forbids co-habitation between two woman and one man......but
hey, the old show three's company would be illegal. Can't set up
cameras in bed rooms till we expand homeland security laws........get started
I note that Ms. Hamilton didn't take Mr. Torgensen up on his offer to deputize
her so she could prosecute these resource-intensive, logistically difficult
polygamy cases. As Mr. Torgensen points out, it's easy to criticize from the
safety of the academic ivory tower. I believe Utah -- and Texas, by
the way -- are taking the right approach. Concentrate on crimes within
polygamous communities. And, in those cases in which solid evidence of polygamy
is present -- sure, throw in a polygamy charge. It is illegal. But concentrate
scarce resources on cynical predators raping child "brides" and producing "lost
boys."In the long run, compulsory education will largely cure the
polygamy problem -- among the FLDS, the Hmong, and the Islamists. We've seen it
already among courageous women like Flora Jessop. As they become aware that
polygamy not mandated by God is, as Church doctrine affirms, a gross imposition
on human dignity, they get out.All the young Flora Jessops out there
-- and their "lost" brothers -- deserve our approval and assistance. Expending
copious amounts of scarce public resources prosecuting otherwise non-criminal
polygamists misallocates funds that could be better used supporting victims.
Every one chooses there life style, why is it that Americans think every one has
to be like them and nothing else is ok. Every religion has Criminals in them,
but judgeing a race or religion because there might be some bad guys or girls in
them is foolish and very dangerous. maybe you could say America makes its own
terrorists from distroying whole religions like this. If the Government does win
at distroying the FLDS church what do you think they will now be spending there
time on. maybe nothing on helping the USA after all the government just ripped
there families apart and crashed every thing they work for.
Common sense, could you please give us a sample of something from one of her
books that makes her an expert? I doubt too many of us have time to run out and
buy one and read it before this thread dies. until then, we have nothing to go
on but the article, where she comes across as an outsider who knows little of
what really goes on here but looks smugly from her ivory NY tower at us poor
hicks out in the hinterland. I'm not saying that's whay she is; I'm just saying
that's the impression we're given. thanks
None of you must know Marci Hamilton or her work very well. Its not just
Polygamy, Its any action of child abuse in any religion. Why? Because Child
Abuse can been hidden easier in religious communities, or insular communities.
Read some of her books. Followers or religions or religious leaders to the point
of them making all decisions for you, leads to abuse! Regardless what name you
attach to it.
So the U scours the nation and finds a lawyer who doesn't actually do trials in
a courtroom to come to Utah to tell Utah lawyers how easy it is to hold a trial
without evidence. Apparently, there is a rule that allows supposition,
innuendo, gossip and inferences to be sufficient to convict in Ms. Marcy's
courtworld. I don't agree with polygamy, but I am glad that we have an Attorney
General that believes in the rule of law and only prosecuting with evidence, not
I think it is religious persecution. the FLDS are small and vulnerable easy
targets for bullies. The guy with comment about the Hmong people and the
"logic dictates" comments are right on target.
Marci advocates for a policy of placing police watches in and around polygamous
communities to see who's going in which house, to identify polygamists. If Utah
were to instate such a policy they would be sure to meet civil rights challenges
of that kind of thing, as it's plainly profiling. The Feds would have to step in
to ensure the rights of these communities.
Many studies by social scientists (check the Internet) state that polygamist
"wives" (in reality, concubines in a harem) are impoverished by polygamy. They
are not legally entitled to share in their "husband's" estate (the legal wife is
entitled to half), or his pension plan, health insurance or life insurance, or
social assistance benefits. There is also the psychological cost of being in
rivalry with other concubines for the man's attention ... not to mention that
his sex life is very rich, while concubines have to wait in line! Polygamy comes
to us from the dark ages when women were chattels, without rights, and were
traded among men like so many cattle. It's time to kick this male-oriented,
ancient practise into the garbage can where it belongs. The year is 2008 AD, not
2008 BC. By the way, although polygamy is sanctioned in the Old Testament, both
St. Paul and Christ said a man should have but one wife. Read Matthew 19,
3-9,and Paul to Timothy,3,1-2,and 12,plus Paul to Titus, 1, 4-7. The
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should not use the
name Christ in their title -- that's gross blasphemy.
I love Utah and I am from Utah (but now live in Texas). Utah comes across as
condoning polygamy because it does not prosecute polygamy (only the crimes
within polygamy). In Texas, there isn't alot of separation of Church and State
and they assume it is the same way in Utah. However, the judges in Utah do not
allow it as they do in Texas. But Utah has been soft on polygammists, which has
allowed the polygamists to grow to a point where it would be extremely major to
take care of them now. This confuses people about the LDS church's role with
polygamy because they assume that the LDS church runs the state. Not so. Many
do not know that SLC has not had an LDS mayor in many years and that it has a
very high number of non-LDS people. As I read the paper, it is apparent that
Utah news people are more concerned with being overly fair to people on other
side of the issues than the people in the south are. Unlike many other states,
they are quick to point out Utah's minor flaws where in other states they don't
Hey everyone, don't worry. Pretty soon it will be okay to be a polygamist.
Once California okays gay marriage then pandoras box will be open for all
alternative lifestyles. People will be "marrying" their siblings, polygamy will
be legal, and don't forget about farmer Bob who wants to "marry" his donkey.
Once you approve one alternative lifestyle you have to approve them all, or dare
I say it, YOU will be discriminating!!!
I was thinking the other day about prosecuting polygamy and came to the
conclusion that prosecuting men who have multiple wives while not prosecuting
men who sleep around with multiple women (adultery) promotes the wrong behavior.
For those of you who are on the 'prosecute every polygamist man' bandwagon, I
hope you are equally vigilant in promoting the idea that our society should
prosecute all adulterers.As it stands now, we encourage adultery and
punish marriage.Women being held against their will (physically or
psychologically) is a separate issue. That falls under the category of
kidnapping. It appears to me that there are plenty of laws that address
kidnapping, under-age marriage, etc.If we're going to punish men for
supporting multiple wives (and the children) through marriage, and turn a blind
eye to men who sleep around, fathering children, and leaving behind a
single-mother to raise the child, we're really promoting the wrong behavior.
If you're going to get all hot-n-bothered by polygamy itself, at
least be intellectually and morally consistent and get all hot-n-bothered about
adultery.For those of you who believe this dialogue comes from a
polygamist ... I'm a monogomist, married to 1 wonderful lady.
I wonder why hatemongers such as Marci Hamliton refuse to consider the trauma
that was inflcited on the children at Short Creek in 1953 and at the XYZ Ranch.
To Bobby Pins & Buns: You Say: "How dare anyone refer to the FLDS cult as LDS
or Mormon. :[ BAHHHAH Hum bug!TO THE DEVIL WITH ALL
POLYGAMISTS!"By your remarks I can only guess you are LDS. Well if
you are LDS and considering that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor,
Joseph F. Smith, Heber C. Kimball etc, etc were all polygamists and according to
outward LDS beliefs, saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God, - you just sent them
all to hell, or "to the devil". What God has exalted, you seek to destroy. You
curse your own prophets if your LDS thus knocking out the very foundation you
stand on. I think it was the Savior that said something about a kingdom divided
against itself. I think you stuck one of your "bobby pins" in just a little too
far. Sit down on your "buns" and think about it. Think about your own
doctrines - if the LDS has any doctrine left that they have not compromised.
Look at the Hmong communities. Their girls marry at 12 or 13, polygamously, and
most of them live in complete squalor, sharing a two bedroom apartment with a
husband, a couple wives, 10-20 children, and dozens of chickens.Seriously. I've investigated crimes among the Hmong and have seen this scene
dozens of times. But no one would dare be "culturally insensitive" and suggest
that these poor refugees be prosecuted for taking multiple child brides.But those white plygs in Utah? Yeah buddy, round 'em up, brand 'em, and
send 'em to the Big House.What a crock.(For the record,
I don't care what people do in their bedrooms or with whom. Polygamists whose
only "crime" is having sex with more than one consenting adult woman aren't
really criminals. If they were, you'd have to arrest half of our inner city
populations and probably two thirds of the businessmen and politicians.)
The word Mormons comes from those who believe in the Book of Mormon. I think
the FLDS people fall into that classification. Remember, a lot of the Christian
world believe that mainstream Mormons are also in a religious cult. Don't throw
rocks lest they be thrown back.
You just insulted Barrack Obama's dad! Obama's dad is a polygamist, so I've
Jonh Pack LambertI cannot figure you out for the life of me? Why are
you so interested the Flds people? And always on these Flds poligie blogs? Why
do you choose to know so much about these woman slavers? Is this your new found
religion or what? Sorry, I really don't mean to sound critical, but I'm just
surprised to see all the time, your comments, and deep your involvement with
these abusers if you are truly a good LDS?
How dare anyone refer to the FLDS cult as LDS or Mormon. :[ BAHHHAH Hum
bug!TO THE DEVIL WITH ALL POLYGAMISTS!
If Ms. Hamilton really wanted to do something about polygamy she would
encorage the government of New York where she works to go after all the Islamic
polygamists in New York City. While polygamists wives in Utah are
normally citizens, polygamist wives in New York City tend to be undocumented
immigrants who if they go against their husbands will can easily be exposed and
deported. If she really believed that ending polygamy would free woman
from oppression she would advocate that the New York prosecutors office actually
do something about the many 16-year-olds who are coming to New York to be second
wives to 35-year-old men. It seems odd for her to criticize the Utah
Attorney Generals Office when they do way more along these lines than the New
York Attorney Generals Office, when there are quite possible more polygamist
marriages in New York than Utah.