While that is hard medicine for CPS and their sympatizers to swallow,
"TheCommittee at 4:13" is right. Well said.And, RC, to state that
FLDS mothers and children appear to be happy because they are too indoctrinated
to know they shouldn't be is the height of arrogance. Who the heck are you to
say that none of those people are smart enough to know when they are being
manipulated or abused. They seem intelligent enough to me. I don't know you
well enough to know if they are as intelligent as you are but they are
infinitely less judgmental and condemning. That in itself speaks volumes for
RC, sorry you are so confused. We are not so concerned about parents rights and
childrens' rights as we are about family rights. Depending on who you talk to
(the UN for example), parents' and childrens' rights sometimes conflict.
Nothing the FLDS do is ever going to please you. SO WHAT? The FLDS FAMILIES
have rights - familial rights - that are protected by the Law of the Land. CPS
trampled all over those rights and, at times, WERE malicious in their efforts to
hurt those families. Does anyone recall the CPS worker who testified in court
that, CPS did not want the children returned to the parents until the parents
renounced their religion? Wow, what does that speak of? You say that the
parents denied the childrens' rights far worse than CPS ever could? What planet
did you come from? The public watched in horror as CPS workers lied to the
mothers, ripped their children from their arms and stole them away. The US
Supreme Court has said that familial rights are such a fundamental right that
denial of such, even with the promise of an eventual hearing on the merits, is
unconsciousable (sp). Parents + Children = Family.
JimB: You are absolutely right! This was a Major law enforcement raid, well
planned out, they were ready for this for some time. All dressed-up/decked-out
and ready to go - a "police state" for our "dangerous" world. Thinking the
people would go along with this raid, they were obviously more prepared than the
CPS. This needs some investigation.
Reality check! This is NOT a game of golf. There should be no such thing as a,
"Mulligan". This is a simple case of shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more,
then ask a question of two. It's rather obvious CPS doesn't play by the rules
anyway. This whole case wreaks of prejudice and bigotry. Just because certain
FLDS don't respect the law regarding underage marriages, doesn't mean the whole
bunch of them are lawless reprobates. If CPS wasn't sure of their case, to
begin with, they should have waited until they were. This is a clear cut case
of panic first, then apprehend, then conduct some sort of investigation, biased
to support claims already made by CPS... The whole lawless bunch of thugs
should be severely repremanded for their actions and the State owes many of
these families a profound apology, at the very least and untold sums of law suit
money, at the very most...!
re 9:29pmnot sure why you wanted to repeat everything I said and
then repeat it in your own words. We both said the same thing.our
facts are the same. what's your point?
You need to recheck your "facts".Texas got a call of abuse [a
known bogus call from Colorado, not from inside YFZ].They went
in to investigate, and the FLDS attempted to deceive just as they have been
trained to do. [The FLDS showed state issued birth certificates and driver
licenses which CPS said were forgeries. In court the documents were proven to
be valid - CPS lied].CPS took the children believing there was
massive abuse and children in danger, thereby overstepping their bounds.
[The Texas courts ruled that CPS was unable to present any evidence of abuse
and thus the children were to be returned to their parents - CPS lied]Court slapped them and they returned most of the children.Now CPS is trying to at least get the abusers, rather than just throw up their
hands and say enough is enough. [CPS is trying to save face at the expense
of innocent people. Prosecute those individuals for which there is specific
evidence. Don't engage in a witch hunt against a religion you don't like. This
is the USA and we should support people's constitutional rights to believe what
they want to believe.]
Chai 6:21pmYes - of course the women and children all look happy.
You just proved my point. These women are too indoctrinated to know that their
rights are being trampled by the FLDS. And by age 5, the children are too. So
it's a lost cause.And a perfect example of what I would call abuse
is the fact (well documented and readily agreed by FLDS) that most books are
banned and most music is banned. Any adult that would let someone
else tell them what to read and what to listen to is either totally
indoctrinated, or simply pathetic. My assumption is that the FLDS
followers are totally indoctrinated. Thinking it's the other is simply too
depressing....Either way, they cannot use their own best judgement
in choosing what to put in their head. That has got to be the result of some
kind of abuse. No reasonable person would put up with that unless forced or
Two sided - have you heard even one woman/child from the YFZ Ranch complaining
about their treatment by the men?Maybe the women are happy there -
before CPS began their systematic abuse of them. The only thing I've heard the
YFZ women complain about is the treatment and lies by CPS personnel.Hmmm...You'd think - these women and children have been given a perfect
opportunity to escape from their oppression, and all they want to do is go back
to the ranch and live with their families.Really abusive, huh? And
those children are absolutely the most beautiful, healthy looking children I've
This is not some simple mistake of made by a strained government
agency. This was a miscalculated attempt by a bunch of overzealous
misfits fed on a diet of Flora and Carolyn Jessops misrepresented tales.
This is not the first time CPS has trampled the rights of parents. It is the
largest case of misconduct.....not the first. This agency designed for
the protection of children has deteriorated into a quasi police force made up of
unaccountable bumblers and misafits. Where is the investigation Meisner
promised four months ago?
The problem here is that we have two groups of people who need to be corrected.
The FLDS need to treat women and children with much more respect and dignity.
Something needs to shake up their ways. But we also have a Texas CPS who is so
prejudiced that they see more than is there and have given themselves more power
than any government organization should have. The evidence is supposed to come
before all of the charges. They thought that they could find what they suspected
if they dug deep enough.
Since you think FLDS abuse their kids so badly, why is it that CPS just
nonsuited 253 FLDS kids, saying the parents can take their kids back, even leave
the state if they want to?Something doesn't add up.
This is such a waste of money. It's unclear to me why we would care whether
these children live like this. By the time they are married (at 12 yrs old) they
are already so brainwashed that there is no realistic way of getting them to
understand just how badly their rights are being trampled by FLDS. Even if you
remove them, they will just go back as soon as they can. They're simply not
bright enough to grasp their plight.Given that lack of intellect,
and the fact that their major contribution to society would be making more of
the same, is there really any point in interfering with their lifestyle? The
smart ones will get out when they are of age, and should we even care about the
others? Has no one seen Deliverance and the effects of inbreeding? Do we really
want more dueling banjos in general population? Aren't these
parents in fact doing us a favor?I say leave them be. Texas should
save their money for people that are smart enough to want freedom. If they'd
rather be isolated and abused with no civil rights, let them.
@Unlike 10:20am and Grandpa Phil 10:39am -Well now you've thoroughly
confused the issue. If you hate to see constitutional rights get trampled, why
would you want these kids to go back to FLDS? They trample civil rights much
worse than CPS ever could.So why are you so much more concerned for
the parents rights than you are for the childrens rights? Or are you just like
the FLDS where you believe children have no rights? Bred for work and babies -
no need for rights?
Gal50: it 48% of the men participated in the underage marriages why were only 8
We all agree these kids are scarred for life, but that happened long before CPS
stepped in. If nothing else, CPS has made the point to these
parents that someone is watching over their shoulder. And, when they get too
wild in their excesses, perversions, and abuse of children, the civil courts
will step in and look into it.My biggest fear is that the
overwhelming administrative burden assumed by Texas to protect these kids -- who
are obviously in need of help -- will deter it and other states from helping
kids in the future.
There's no need to be so melodramatic by comparing this situation to murder. The
spotlight is already overcrowded with amateur actresses.I agree with
you that it is time for change. It's time for the members of the FLDS to effect
change within their own organization by directing their outrage at the leaders
and other members within their group whose disgusting behaviour and deliberate
flouting of the law have earned them this scrutiny. Some of them also need to
take a hard look at their own behaviour, complicity and blindness.
the facts are:Texas got a call of abuseThey went in to investigate,
and the FLDS attempted to deceive just as they have been trained to do.CPS
took the children believing there was massive abuse and children in danger,
thereby overstepping their bounds.Court slapped them and they returned
most of the children.Now CPS is trying to at least get the abusers, rather
than just throw up their hands and say enough is enough.Well - I say
enough is enough already. These are ignorant people. You can't solve ignorance
with force. No matter what we do, they will go back to their old ways. Perhaps
fewer underage marriages, but the practiioners will still be under the thumb of
a group of posers telling everyone what they must do, and these people will
continue to believe them. If this was about polygamy, no one would
care. If this was about civil rights, the children's rights are being trampled
by FLDS much worse than CPS could ever do.But it's trying to save
people that don't want to be saved. What's the point in that? It's too
expensive to teach them to think rationally.
Whether the agency's "misconduct is a result of willful or malicious wrongdoing"
doesn't make much difference to the victim. The victim is dead. Whether he died
through 1st degree murder or "just manslaughter," he's dead! These kids are
scarred for life. Texas government needs to learn that it too should be held
accountable when it hurts people whether out of malicious intent, wrecklessness,
or unpreparedness, the result is the same. People were hurt. Time for lawsuits.
Time for change.
zxcv You are being too kind.
It sounds to me like CPS is merely overwhelmed by the unprecedented number of
cases.It is unfortunate that things are not proceeding is as timely
a manner as a typical case but it must be taken into account that, when CPS went
into this, they were grossly misinformed about the number of children they would
be dealing with and they simply did not have sufficient resources.I
don't think the agency's misconduct is a result of willful or malicious
wrongdoing and it should not be treated as such.
Thank you Grandpa Phil. You worded that so well.THE PUBLIC is interested
in seeing justice done.I am also watching "from afar." So are many
others.We have watched and read from day 1 when the peaceful people of the
ranch had their rights trampled.
Does anyone deny the FLDS practise underage marriage? I'm imagining you could
RICCO them for conspiracy to commit stauatory rape since as a group they condone
and practise it.
It seems that you do not even realize that the FLDS religion has not existed for
"over a hundred years," right?
This whole thing is a two-edged sword. Texas and CPS are getting a come-uppance
in this process. CPS's around the country often go to extremes to protect
children, and rightfully so. However, in this case, Texas pressed their luck a
bit far and got a whole passel of lawyers involved who will push this process to
a final conclusion. Parents have rights and children have rights. Hopefully, a
balanced decision will recognize both in this difficult affair.
There was no intentional deceit, no intentional plan to deny evidence to
parents or attorneys." This says it all. In "good faith" CPS
raids private homes on an unconfirned call. "In good faith" CPS sees things that
aren't there. In good faith" 14 day individual hearings take a month to occur as
a group. Now we are to believe that golly gee......good ole cps is
doing the best they can and realy are trying to obey the law. Good try
CPS......but almost following the law and the rules may work in Walthers court,
but the appeals will bust you. By the time this zoo full of kangeroos
gets finished with the kids the children will be 45 and on their 10th
pregnancy. What a joke!!!!! Kinda sorta justice in Texas.
I like what "@Unlike" said. That goes for me, too.
Hey "Public Opinion as a Whole", please speak only for yourself and not for the
"public". You do not speak for me. I have watched these events from afar (NC)
and vested both time and money in my attempts to garner the public outcry
against the Texas/CPS abuses of power under color of law that these people have
experienced. I'm as interested as everyone else that justice be done to any and
all lawbreakers but, as we have noted lately, the list of those is shrinking
daily. It might come down to a handful or less and, if it does, I say lynch 'em
- LEGALLY. If that handful dissipates in a cloud of smoke and mirrors, then I
say go after the real abusers of authority; the ones who abused the children by
wrenching them from their parents who have since been fully exonerated.
Accountability and responsibility are a two-edged sword. Hold the guilty
accountable but do it legally. If the system fails to do that legally, hold
those in authority accountable, too. CPS wants a "mulligan"; however, they
would be the first to scream, wail, and knash teeth if the FLDS asked for one.
Nobody should get one.
The FLDS are entitled to this evidence. The reason the members haven't received
it is because the case is so large that CPS is having difficulty deal with it.
This isn't a reason that stands up in court. It is probably easier for CPS to
non-suit cases than to come up with evidence. CPS has stated that
48% of the men on the ranch participated in underage marriage, which could mean
that they participated in statutory rape if they had sexual intercourse with
their child "wives".The number of cases that have been non-suited
has been about 50%, so one could supposed that the other children have been
exposed to men (their fathers) who are suspected of having sex with one or more
children. The problem for CPS is that unless a child was born to these underage
wives or there is a journal detailing a sex act, there is no evidence that sex
occurred as no one in the FLDS is going to testify to this. It will only be
suspected that sex occurred. The court system typically removes
children from sexual abusers and this has occurred.
I Beg your pardon but I am no FLDS apologist. Im a US constitution apologist,
and will speak out whenever I see the constitution being trampled on,
irrespective of whether or not I like the ones having their rights trampled.
Why would anybody in Texas worry about evidence? There are no human rights in
Texas. Texas isn't even part of the United States. Just ask any Texan and they
will tell you that they live in their own Republic. Why do you think the FLDS
moved there in the first place. It was to get away from the law enforcing
Utahns and Arizonans.
My post was perhaps not allowed, because I stated the obvious: there are
supporters of abuse and crime here that are being published in total opposition
to the rest of public opinion, which wanted these crimes investigated and were
outraged with the rest of the free world. The extent of the crimes and the cost
is on the heads of the criminals who are not cooperating after a lack of law
enforcement that helped create such a large problem. That enforcement is
finally taking place is great, however costly.
All the FLDS apologists still flock to these boards is amazing - don't pretend
because you post these first comments that you represent the rest of the public
who is outraged about polygamy and its crimes. The FLDS are responsible for the
extent of these crimes after one hundred years, and after virtually no law
enforcement. To complain, balk, and commit not coorperate illegally is
outrageous after all this time. The public wants this investigated and the
crimes stopped - charges have been filed and persons indicted. It has nothing
ot do with "grandstanding" to finally enforce the law and have victims of abuse
finally removed from an organized control and abuse group. The supporters of
this abuse, via their psychological conditioning, still come on these boards
showing the extent of their inability to see that their acts are illegal and
immoral - and the whole free world is trying to help the women and children come
out from this slavery and inequality.
No one is trying to destroy a religion.But it sure would be nice if
the FLDS would follow the example set by other polygamist groups by not
conducting and condoning underage "marriages." These groups are not being
investigated and charged. They are being allowed to live in peace.
Rules are rules, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the Court is
going to grant CPS a mulligan, it must grant the FLDS community a mulligan as
Texas, we are pathetic so that is our excuse to not follow due process.
Interloper,Grandstanding??? Really?Looks like the
grandstanding is, and has always been, on the part of CPS and Judge Walthers.May we read your last line as follows? Since the difficulties of trying
to destroy an entire religion with which we do not agree are so extensive, CPS
should have recognized that massive scale and avoided this entire foolish
debacle. The partisan judge would have been wise and right to never have
colluded with CPS in attempting to unjustifiably sanction a non-mainstream group
of people who are trying to live their lives as best they see fit.May such a politically correct grandstand never be set up at your doorstep.
When you seperate families, raid there homes, scare children, bring national
attention to the state, react forcefully to a phony phone call...you don't get a
do over. You get out of office, you lose your license to practice and you are
excused from the bench. Not only that you owe hundreds of children an apology
and in today's world that means $$.
Maybe Martha Emack needs to sue CPS for depriving her of her rights without
Looks like a witch hunt to me.
Let us cut to the chase. Texas, how much money do you want to spend, now and
when the lawsuits hit?CPS, how many of you want to loose your jobs,
along with being dragged through the looming litigation?This whole
situation has exploded in Judge Walther'sface, and the Imperial Texas CPS.
If I was the FLDS,I would petition the U.S. Justice Department,over Civil
Rights violations, for starters.The ACLU could make a ton of money
on this one, along with any enterprising attorney.Regardless of the
purported issues,real or otherwise,this case will be thrown out, and the
FLDS will be exonerated in court.The whole situation has truly
become a can of worms,and Texas, in this case, has blown it.
The non-suits are actually much better for the FLDS than CPS handing over
incomplete discovery documents. The defense lawyers are just grandstanding.
Since the difficulties of trying to do discovery on a massive scale are obvious,
the judge is right not to sanction the state.
When did it become OK for the people that represent the law in this country to
raid peoples residents, take their property and then try to build a case to
justify what they did? Didn't there used to be something about probable cause
that had to be considered? Can any law agency now use telephone calls from
unknown people making unproved claims to raid your and my homes also? Where is
the public outcry on the violation of these people rights?