De-flated: With soccer popular among boys, why only one NCAA-sanctioned men's team in Utah?

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  • HuskyVa SPOTSYLVANIA, VA
    June 8, 2012 12:03 p.m.

    BYU did have a D1 Men's Soccer Team. Back in the day JD Dusara was the coach of the Men's team. I went to soccer camp at BYU in the late 80's to early 90's and it was still D1. Somewhere around 1991 the team was dropped from D1 and became a club team. Some say it was a casualty of Title IX. However, Dave Wooley, the last D1 coach they had at BYU informed family members of mine that there were violations made by the soccer team including illegal recruiting, if memory serves correctly, staying at the homes of members when on the road. BYU has never been on probation and acted quickly to drop the program and avoid probation.

    Incidentally, I just googled Dave Wooley and apparently he now has a book for sale on the BOM at DeseretBook.

  • Northern Logan, UT
    Nov. 2, 2011 3:09 p.m.

    Soccer may be all these wonderful things and many might play it and congrats to clay for working so hard but...

    Soccer is super boring and the only reason that the world loves it, is because its the only thing 3rd world country's are exposed to and can play with just a ball. No pads, hoops, sticks, gloves. Just one ball and bare feet can play.

    It is and always will be boring to watch. 90 mins of your life then it ends in a tie.

  • Bobby
    July 27, 2008 4:30 p.m.

    The SEC doesn't have men's soccer and only one "legacy" school -- Kentucky -- currently offers it. South Carolina, which joined the SEC in 1992, stayed in its former conference (the Metro) for men's soccer for a few more seasons before reunification (Metro-Great Midwest reunification created Conference USA) when it wasn't invited, and stayed independent for ten seasons when it rejoined Conference USA, taking Kentucky with them to C-USA.

    The US Olympic Committee needs to study the demise of Olympic sports for men because of Feminazi orders.

  • Annonymous.
    July 21, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    Title IX is not the problem, it is an excuse. Title IX mandates EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES, NOT EQUAL NUMBERS, and is based on student percentages and interest levels. This is a misconception that people have gotten too caught up in.

  • Re: Let's be honest
    July 21, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    the guy that "ran" to first base then stands around for hours on end, and the guy that was on the ground gets back up and runs another couple miles, getting hit constantly (not just once in awhile like the ball hitting the player in baseball).
    ENOUGH SAID

  • let's be honest
    July 20, 2008 3:26 p.m.

    to: athletes - get hit with a baseball and the guy runs to first base...get kicked in the shin in soccer and they call for help as they lie around on the ground like it was death...enough said!

  • Athletes
    July 20, 2008 12:36 p.m.

    To all those who are claiming soccer is for "the kids that couldn't make the football or baseball team."
    On a high school level, US soccer 1) has more Utah kids playing on an international level than other sports 2) is more attended than baseball. 3) many of the soccer players are on a fall/winter varsity team.

    As to whether or not soccer is as physically demanding than other sports:
    1) It's a contact sport.
    2) The average professional player runs 8-9 miles per game.
    2) There are no time-outs, quarters, etc. 90 minutes of full play. How much of baseball and football are just waiting for the next play time?
    3) Only three substitutions.
    4) Have you ever seen the BYU men's team or RSL's work out schedule? The BYU team trains just as much, if not more, than the football and baseball teams in the weight room.

    As to baseball vs. soccer. I seriously doubt that a baseball player would have the foot coordination - I mean you don't exactly run with the ball in baseball, do you?

  • Re: Hey Mr. Garrison
    July 17, 2008 6:15 p.m.

    Now read carefully. I know all of you emotional soccer minds can't handle it, but try so that you don't misunderstand or try to put words in my mouth. Deep breath all you soccer people. Jim Abbott was a big league pitcher for Detroit with only a left hand. He was in the league for a few years and had a descent career. It wasn't a gimmick. I didn't say I saw a soccer player. And for the moron that claimed I said that soccer wasn't hard, I never said it wasn't. My statement was it took a better athlete. Competing in a Triathlon is harder than both baseball and soccer, but that doesn't make you a great athlete. Again, you have to run, throw, catch, and hit and round ball with a cylander object. The only thing that can compare with each sport is running. If you gave a group of baseball players and soccer players and gave each group 4 weeks to train and practice, baseball would kill any group of soccer players in playing a game/match opposite each other. Deep breath soccer. Before responding, get rid of your emotions. I'm sure I'll be hearing from you.

  • Anonymous
    July 17, 2008 4:34 p.m.

    Its sad to see that utah colleges aren't taking the opprotunity have NCAA soccer teams when Utah is producing great soccer players. Utah soccer is starting to get recognzied more and more. The RSL U-17 team captured the MLS Cup, now that is a big accompishment. The Utah 89, 90, 91 had many players in the Region pool. The youth players are developing at a fast pace and make a stand at the Western Regionals. BYU is getting great players, but their talent is going to waste in the PDL. U of U has a great valley of soccer players same with Utah Valley. La Roca, Inter, Sparta, Utah Rush and other clubs are developing great players, they are forced to go out of state to get the college play they want because their state colleges can't give them the level of play they need. The state of Utah should take the change in NCAA Soccer and watch the amazing change that will happen.

  • Hey Mr. Garrison
    July 17, 2008 11:42 a.m.

    Have you ever played soccer? I take it as a no considering your lack of respect for the sport. Why do you think the entire world plays this sport so much...? Come on now
    Oh, and the guy who said that he saw the soccer player with one arm play... I'm sure that was a feel good thing too. No one at the high level can play with one arm, but you would have to understand the game to know that. I think that may be a little hard for your baseball filled mind to wrap around

  • educate yourselves
    July 17, 2008 1:41 a.m.

    wow who ever is saying baseball is harder give me a break i play football basketball and baseball and soccer. All of these sports takes different types of strengths but please do not tell me soccer is an easy sport give me a break. For soccer you have to be the best in the world to be considered good not just the US the world. You have to be big fast strong in good shape conditioned and have mental toughness. 90 minutes of intense play. soccer is no sport for people who are not tough or you will just get knocked off the ball i respect people if they say they do not enjoy it but pleas do not say it is easy far from it. watch any body that has not played soccer try to play they look like fools takes finess and skil.

  • Mr. Garrison
    July 16, 2008 9:50 p.m.

    There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

    I should take that back. There are both stupid questions and stupid people. Watching grown 'men' play soccer is boring. Dull. It is not a sport for men.

    Some of you will claim that I am just bashing soccer. Some of you are right, but consider this; maybe soccer deserves to be bashed.

  • RE: No Arms (Brain)
    July 16, 2008 4:37 p.m.

    At what level do you speak of. I can only think of Jim Abbot in baseball. Anyone else? Huh? What you say? Idiot back at you. Yeah, high school level and rarely college. Feel good stories, but how many can play or just play. There is a difference. Idiot back at you again. That's the soccer mentality that I dislike very much.

  • Hey baseball lover
    July 16, 2008 4:34 p.m.

    Whichever high school it is that you go to, you should try out for the soccer team. Lets see you get through the first day of conditioning with that baseball "fitness"

  • I'll make the switch
    July 16, 2008 4:29 p.m.

    I had a buddy who played both baseball and soccer. he was a standout baseball player. He was going to be offered a starting spot on the Taylorsville baseball team as a fresman. He was going to ge in their pitching rotation. He also was a stand out soccer player... Guess which one he said was harder? SOCCER. wanna know why, you have to be in better shape, you have to be mentally fit the whole game (not just when the pitcher is going) and you have to be aware of yourself at all times.
    Buddy, come on now, everybody knows baseball is a pathetic excuse for a sport. Yeah it is hard to hit a ball, you ever tried bending a soccer ball around a wall into a space just big enough for the ball so the goalie doesnt reach it?

  • no arms?
    July 16, 2008 4:24 p.m.

    You could play soccer without arms? wow, did you watch a guy do it once so you figure that at any level it is feasible. I saw a guy play baseball with one hand. I saw a guy play basketball with one leg. I saw a guy play football with one arm... Guess in every sport it is capable.
    Idiot

  • RE: Ignorant Americans
    July 16, 2008 4:21 p.m.

    You my friend, obviously haven't played the game. I would challenge ANY soccer player to play baseball and then any baseball player to switch and play soccer and I'd be willing to be the baseball players would beat the soccer players at their own game. It wouldn't be close when playing baseball. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most soccer players wouldn't have the courage to this challenge. Baseball players are in better condition that most other athletes. REAL athletes know this. Not those that play a game where you don't need to use arms are hands. That's not a sport, it's hacky sack. I also have no respect for a sport where you see a participant roll around like he got shot and then miraculasly is 100% to run full speed in the next minute. If the Hispanics love soccer that's great. It's a game for them to play because they can't play baseball. Soccer right, a sport where armless people can play. Get real.

  • More manly?
    July 16, 2008 4:19 p.m.

    Football is more manly then soccer why? Baseball is more manly then soccer why? Basketball is more manly then soccer why?
    Football, you wear enough pads to not feel the hit.
    Baseball, you dont get touched, when you do you get rewarded to go to your base.
    Basketball, hey these guys bang some, i'll give respect here.
    Soccer, well if you havent played you dont know. If all you have seen is your little kids rec league game you know nothing. that would be like me going to a jr jazz game and saying i knew everything about basketball.
    Come on now, are we really all this ignorant that we have to use the word manly? The american football ego is a fragile thing

  • If nobody cares...
    July 16, 2008 3:47 p.m.

    Then why do you soccer haters feel the need to comment on a stroy about Title 9?
    Ha ha, you haters are pathetic. Lets see, thanks for the stadium with not your tax money (notcie the word not), thanks for your support of soccer (by commenting on it, you give it attention and publicity, we all know there is no such thing as bad publicity) and thank you for showing how stupid we as americans are (as if our president was not enough proof).
    Well done, well done.

  • Ignorant Americans
    July 16, 2008 3:42 p.m.

    Back to Real Athletes: I sure hope you are kidding. Baseball? Honeslty baseball? The most complete athletes? Come on now. Lets see, you stand in a box waiting for a pitch. I'll give you the fact it is hard to hit, but running? Yeah, a whole 90 feet to first where most of the time the player is exhausted. Ha ha, catching a baseball with those mits is not that hard either. Pitching is hard and so is hitting, but other then that the game is a waiting game. heck, golf can be ten times more exciting then baseball. lets see you go on the pitch (that is a soccer field for you uneducated people) and try and score. Its so easy right? Ha ha, after you get worn out from your run onto the field, i'll be sure to give you a reason to sit down again.
    Baseball? Seriously? this guy said baseball?
    Oh, and to the rest of you soccer haters. Number of Hispanics in the US is increasing... Hispanics love soccer... UH OH.

  • guru
    July 15, 2008 4:15 p.m.

    listen....nobody cares about friggen soccer in America. Ok, there might be a few people....about as many that care about karate and lacrosse. America is a football and basketball country through and through. Bag soccer

  • Soccer Mom
    July 14, 2008 2:23 p.m.

    I echo the comment from Laurels. My son just graduated and was offered both academic and athletic (soccer) scholarships to attend Westminster. He, too, had several offers from out of state colleges but they were not near enough to offset the extremely high costs to attend those schools. So he is Westminster bound and I couldn't be happier. My daughter just graduated from there and really enjoyed it.

  • Jason Bryant
    July 14, 2008 11:21 a.m.

    To the Comment "I can go on and on, still have wrestling, why didn't title IX affect hundreds of other schools."

    Please educate yourself on the topic. Wrestling participation on the youth level is at an all-time high (check NFHS numbers).

    Then be aware that college wrestling has lost over 400 college programs since the passing of the law in 1972, but many (if not most) have come after the 1979 clarification.

    I tried to post a link to things PROVING it, but this site does not allow URL's to be posted.

    It's over 400 college wrestling teams dead since Title IX's passing. Don't kid yourself.

    Proof is in the pudding. I'm sure other men's sports are in a similar boat.

  • sports fan
    July 13, 2008 10:32 p.m.

    being a 5a mvp doesnt mean much because american soccer is weak, and thats why we get blown out at the world cup. This is the usa, and football/basketball will always be king! believe dat.

  • Real Athletes
    July 13, 2008 8:39 p.m.

    Baseball players are the most complete athletes period. Think about it. To be considered good you have to run, throw, catch, and hitch a ball with a round object. Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports. Granted there are some that are better at hitting than maybe fielding or vice versa, but they are above average or wouldn't be in the bigs. Michael Jordan tried to play the game and couldn't get out of AA. The only other real football or basketball player that you could say had success was Bo Jackson. He made a couple All-Star games.

    Don't even compare to soccer players. If they traded places, it'd be no match either way. Man, you could play soccer without any arms and still be good. Couldn't do that in any other sport. Leave soccer to the world and keep it just where it is now in the US.

  • Title IX is stupid
    July 13, 2008 7:45 a.m.

    It takes a lot more players to field a football team than a volleyball team. As much as I enjoy watching women in their volleyball uniforms, football puts more butts in the seats and earns more MONEY.

  • Dale Newton
    July 13, 2008 1:07 a.m.

    An interesting article - but basically - who cares? I don't care if the schools in this state ever offer any scholarships in soccer. I would care - in the negative - if any of those scholarships took one away from men's football or baseball or women's volleyball or gymnastics. I don't care if the professional team wins or loses or even stays in business. I do, however, want them out of the University of Utah's stadium before they ruin the turf any more than they already have - and I hope the "U" is charging them a bundle to play there. Soccer - it's boring and I believe you only run stories on it because the paper feels it is some type of politically correct thing to do. Can't you find more old stories about lawn bowling, poker and checkers and other interesting sports?

  • Accept it soccer fans
    July 13, 2008 12:18 a.m.

    As a hockey fan, I know what it's like to love a sport that isn't hugely popular in most of the U.S. But you know what? We kind of accept it. Yeah, we complain about the lack of coverage and do what we can to increase exposure, but at least we don't make these outlandish claims about its future. Soccer becoming the third most popular sport in the country? Maybe someday, but it's not gonna happen in my lifetime, and I'm only 23. I fully acknowledge that soccer is gaining popularity, but it has a ways to go before it even catches hockey in terms of tv viewership and especially attendance (per-game attendance is nearly comparable but hockey has almost three times as many games). Then it's a huge leap to basketball and another huge leap to baseball and football.

    P.S.- Dumbest comment of the day- "How many people would attend football or basketball games without the cheerleaders?" I grew up in a place where people stay on a season-ticket waiting list for 15 years for the honor of sitting with 65,000 other Terrible Towel-waving members of Steeler Nation and there's not one cheerleader.

  • Phillip matou
    July 12, 2008 11:10 p.m.

    My comment in the form of requet Can you import some pfour good player here in solomon islands to pleyin your USA clubs. We have good players who can turn our dreams in reality.

    Please contact me or come and experience by yourself

    Thank you
    Phillip Matou

  • Boo Hooo
    July 12, 2008 10:56 p.m.

    To all you who constantly rip on title 9... BOO HOO!
    I know, I know womens sports don't make money and guess what, some men's sports don't make money either.

  • What Others Think of US Football
    July 12, 2008 10:30 p.m.

    I was in Wimbley stadium, London, when the NFL was playing an exhibition match. Cowboys vs. Steelers. During the match a nice English couple asked, why do they always have to talk about what they are going to do next? Do they have such poor memories they can't remember what to do on the field. it was a refreshing look at the side of US football we forget sometimes. So many stoppages. So little playing time. In a four hour football game the ball is in play for less than 12 minutes. How tedius is that?

  • Brent
    July 12, 2008 10:13 p.m.

    American football does go over the top on scholarships. It is probably the only sport where a different set of athletes play offense and defense. Imagine if Byu and Utah both had good men's soccer teams. With support from both schools the RSL stadium could be packed.

  • get off soccer's case
    July 12, 2008 7:55 p.m.

    Seriously, the discussion is about title ix, not if soccer is interesting. One issue with soccer is that if you don't know how to play soccer it probably is boring and confusing. One main draw of many sports are the cheerleaders. How many people would attend football or basketball if there were no cheerleaders? I used to play soccer all the time and its a fun sport and takes a lot of fitness and skill. There are a lot of pros to soccer and it requires as much or more athleticism as any other sport. Its as good a sport as any other sport.

  • Title IX
    July 12, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    The story and many of the comments have Title IX wrong. Title IX states that the proportion of athletic opportunities at a school needs to match the proportion of males to females enrolled at the school. It DOES NOT state that they need to be EQUAL. Unfortunately this causes an even bigger problem because most universities have a higher proportion of females enrolled in school. If, as posted earlier, it is true that more young males are actively involved in sports than young females, this really puts men at a disadvantage. Supposedly Title IX was supposed change this situation by encouraging more females to become active in sports. This is pure speculation on my part, but if more women are enrolled in school it could be for academic reasons and have nothing to do with interest and opportunities in athletics. I think Title IX should not be based on enrollment but should be based on interest at a university. If there are more women on campus, but only say 50% are interested in sports, than the Title IX requirement should be lower. Same for the men. The NCAA is good with complex formulas (RPI, BCS), they should try it!

  • Uneducated
    July 12, 2008 7:05 p.m.

    I think people who post negitive comments just sound uneducated. I just the idea of forcing your belief on someone is something you were taught as a child. Your comments almost made me hate soccer but I guess they weren't that convincing. Try harder next time.

  • ?
    July 12, 2008 6:49 p.m.

    C'mon, soccer absolutely sucks! Go watch a collegiate soccer game sometime and see if you can find more than 15 people there. (All of them related to or dating someone playing on the field.)

    My four year old will play soccer because that is about all you can do at that age. When he graduates to a real sport, soccer is toast! This is America.... baseball, football, basketball. Period.

  • moruda
    July 12, 2008 6:29 p.m.

    Re: Soccer?

    The "goal is as big as a semi trailer" and in football you have the WHOLE END OF THE FIELD to cross (and EVEN bigger goal) and many games are won by scores of "2 to 1" or "3 to 2." Oh, wait! In American football you get six points for a goal, so that's "12 to 6" or "18 to 12." So they must be MORE IMPORTANT goals because they are WORTH MORE POINTS.

    I'm not a big fan of soccer, but at least they actually PLAY most of the time during a match. In American football the players spend most of the time planning to play (while we just sit in the stands watching their rear ends. The they play for 8 or 10 seconds or so, then back to the secret planning again for a few more minutes. Talk about tedious.

  • Re; Realist
    July 12, 2008 5:10 p.m.

    Your argument is unreal, siccer may not take over football or basketball in Amaerica but it will take over every other sport. Larry H.Miller had a fit when SLR came here he knew they would draw far moare than the Bee's. Baseball is the sport most threatened by soccer.

  • Soccer?
    July 12, 2008 4:50 p.m.

    Let me get this straight we (including me) are wasting all this time talking about soccer? A sport where the goal is as big as a semi trailer and 1 goal is considered a great feat?

  • Shogakkin again
    July 12, 2008 3:24 p.m.

    I did not argue that athletes are dumb in my post. I just said soccer--and other sports--are part of a range of extracurricular activities that can be available to college students. I see no reason to privilege any sport with scholarships at the expense of other worthy activities.

    My picking on the lack of discussion of Clay Christenson's academic goals has more to do with the (morbidly?) rabid attention that sports get when we talk about college.

    I am delighted that you make good grades in neuroscience, but so do a lot of your classmates who do NOT get scholarships for their extracurricular activities.

    Yes, dedication in sports and application of the principles and strategies one learns in them can and do contribute to success in classwork, but so do playing the guitar, or working on car engines or other mechanical projects, or rock climbing, or choral music, or dance, or writing.

    Sports has no exclusive magical ability to make people smarter than any other activities that demand real devotion.

    So, what I was saying, is that the notion of all these college scholarships for sports without comparable numbers for other activities seems wrong headed.

    And we're battling GPAs now?

  • Soccer #1?
    July 12, 2008 3:26 p.m.

    The only reason soccer is the most popular game in the world is that it's the only game most countries can afford to play. Here in the US where we have our choice in sports, most young men leave little league soccer for more interesting sports like football as they grow up

  • Realist
    July 12, 2008 3:18 p.m.

    Where I went to highschool--in Utah valley--one played soccer because he couldn't make any of the cooler sports teams (totally different witht e women's team). That's still okay, it's just that all you soccer nuts out there need to accept the fact that Americans don't like to watch soccer. We have manlier sports to consume our time. Soccer is becoming more popular in the US, in direct proportion to the Spanish language becoming more spoken here. NCAA soccer would never be financially viable. And worse, it will never be interesting to watch.

  • europe football = #1
    July 12, 2008 3:00 p.m.

    If you want to bash you are going to have to learn to take some bashing considering baseball after the beijing olympics isn't even going to be featured in the olympics.. Sad i know but arrogant americans will have to eventually realize that their sports like baseball and football aren't that great.

  • Re european football
    July 12, 2008 2:57 p.m.

    you are probably over the age of 40. Baseball is not a true athletes game most of the players are overweight. face the facts soccer is here you are going to have to let go of your bias and watch a true athletes game.

    It is the most popular sport in the WORLD for a reason.

  • willie
    July 12, 2008 2:48 p.m.

    Have you ever seen a mens college soccer game?

    I agree with the comments made about bias and and athletic directors being old school. It's like my dad he wont even watch a game he would rather watch baseball. Hopefully the next generation of athletes will fix this problem of bias and unequality as they become the athletic directors and leaders of our collegiate schools.

  • European football
    July 12, 2008 2:17 p.m.

    Watching men in shorts running up and down kicking a ball, falling down and writhing in pain (Ever watch a baseball palyer who has been hit by a 97 mph fastball?) then pulling his shirt up over his head when there is an infrequent score. Soccer gives boring a bad name. Don't spend university or tax payer dollars on such rubbish. If title IX is the reason for collegiate soccer's demise, it has done something good.

  • Willie
    July 12, 2008 1:44 p.m.

    I'd rather watch the local women's college teams play any day.

  • Re: Shogakkin
    July 12, 2008 12:32 p.m.

    I am on a partial scholarship at a top institution to play soccer- I have a 3.63, as a neuroscience major and the team average is a 3.05.

    I would say that we take academics just as seriously as non-athletes if not more, especially with in the realm of the soccer team. Soccer is a game of intellect and most successful players that I know partner their skills with great GPAs in high school much more so than any football or basketball team average I am sure. This allows them to embody and plethora of options if schools don't come knocking during the recruiting process.

    You are right school is for school, but soccer is outstanding for personal growth and a number of other necessary communication and relationship skills.

    I guarantee, that if you gave Clay the chance, he would be able to outline everything he wants to do academically and my guess is that he might have a higher GPA than you would expect (maybe even higher than yours in college my friend)


  • soocer facts
    July 12, 2008 12:33 p.m.

    I hate to break it to you but as good as Utah thinks they are when it comes to soccer the state lags behind other states. If you look at the Western regionals for youth soccer, Utah did not have a single winner in any age category. The young man from Jordan High School sounds like a good player, but when compared with other players from other states, he is just average. Utah will have to embrace year round soccer before it will truly be able to compete with other states and their soccer programs. Big name universities recruit at regionals. They do not watch or even attend high school games. If you want to do well and land at a good program you must play well at regionals. NCAA divison one programs also look at the success of ODP programs. Utah's program is weak when matched against other programs. If Utah wants to take their game to the next level, they are going to have to well at these two venues.

  • Knowledgable
    July 12, 2008 12:27 p.m.

    I'm waiting for my previous comments to appear on this post, which provide a concise and accurate history of what has happened over the years. Bottom line: it is absolutely all about Title IX. "Soccer Coach for 25 Years" knows all about it, too. Good to see your post, my friend. Nice comments.

  • Norm
    July 12, 2008 12:10 p.m.

    Before praising the BYU Idaho model too much, please investigate the many costs and challenges faced by the program. I prefer the European model where sports are played at the club level.

  • Knowledgable
    July 12, 2008 12:00 p.m.

    To "Ace Ventura": BYU fielded an NCAA-sanctioned men's soccer team in the 70s and 80s, as "byu soccer" correctly stated. Coach Dusara was fired (rightfully so), and BYU found an opportunity to move the program to club status, where the team dominated, much as the men's volleyball team did before its move to NCAA status.

    The team's current status is absolutely all about Title IX. BYU has been formally offered funds by wealthy donors interested in seeing a return to Division I status. Moreover, former players and coaches have offered to operate a program at rock-bottom costs -- without scholarships -- to help offset the cost to the athletic department. BYU men's soccer would be a Top 20 Division I team year in and year out without any scholarship players. The quality is there, but the administration feels its hands are tied.

    For now, the program receives good support to play in the PDL, which is actually a step up from most college programs. The current team is young, but continues to win and has a bright future. Coach Watkins is leading the program in the right direction.

  • Shogakkin
    July 12, 2008 11:53 a.m.

    I don't see in this story any mention of why Clay Christenson wants to go to college, except to play soccer. No discussion of what he wants to study or his plans for learning something. If there are no soccer scholarships, too bad. Most kids--even very talented ones--don't get paid to go to college to do what they are there for, whether they are majoring in music, chemistry, theater, foreign languages, physics, or education, and certainly not for most of the extracurricular activities they pursue.

    And, what's with the word "scholarship"? There is noting the least bit scholarly about them.

    Too bad we have so many scholarships for basketball and football.

    I know this will goad the athletic junkies, but there are other things to do in college than play games on a field. Soccer is a nice thing, but it's not what school is for.

    ***

  • eliminate T-9
    July 12, 2008 11:26 a.m.

    Title 9 is discrimination. If folks were really concerned they would change it. But they are not. Equality is a big lie. If you have to punish people for you to feel equal you have serious social problems.

  • Soccer Coach for 25 Years
    July 12, 2008 11:25 a.m.

    I agree with Anonymous. The BYU Idaho model is wonderful. It would be something if BYU dropped its NCAA sports and went completely intramural. What a major change.

    I've heard that it is likely not a possibility since so many donors identify with the sports programs, particularly football and basketball. When BYU wins donations are up. When BYU loses donations are down. What we don't know is if there were no wins and loses what would happen to the donations. Maybe the school financial guys should put more faith in their donnors. If they didn't have to worry about down years, maybe that would offset the peaks of the high income years when the teams are winning.

  • Soccer Coach for 25 Years
    July 12, 2008 11:21 a.m.

    Or I'll connect a few dots...

    Chris Hill offers some excellent reasons why men's soccer is not sponsored by Utah colleges and universities. Cost, facilities, personell.

    One local university was able to cover all their operating costs through outside donations and gate revenues. They were turned down.

    A few years ago, the men's soccer program at another local university earned the 3rd largest gate receipt on campus behind men's football and basketball. The income reached close to $100,000.000 a year. With the potential for more growth. Again the university turned away the program and let it flouder, financially, for a number of years until it was recently resusciated.

    Chris Hill is a soccer fan. He loves the game. His daughter is a player. I'm sure he would support a men's program if he believed it was viable. The problem is that at most other institutions where football rules and where athletic directors hold outdated but deeply rooted bias, there is little motivation to find solutions to the costs and facilities needed to sponsor a college men's soccer program. Instead, there is the same chorus we've heard for thirty years....

    no one else is sponsoring a team so we won't either.

  • Re;Go team!!!
    July 12, 2008 11:17 a.m.

    Soccer will generate more fans in the future than any other sport outside of football and basketball in the very near future. There are millions of people now that have grown up playing the game, yes in America and they have very good soccer IQ's. Just wait, if I'm an athletic director I'm definately keeping soccer at my school. In Utah alone there are more soccer players per capita than anywhere in the USA.
    It's here to stay like it or not.

  • Don't believe it
    July 12, 2008 11:12 a.m.

    BYU got rid of Wrestling because they wanted to, don't blame it on title IX. If that were the case why does, Iowa, Oklahoma, Penn State, Michigan, Boise state, Iowa State, Lehigh, Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Stanford, Wisconsin, Arizona State.... I can go on and on, still have wrestling, why didn't title IX affect hundreds of other schools.
    Athletic directors use title IX for any program they want to get rid of. That way they don't take any heat. BYU could have kept wrestling, no problem, as a matter of fact being a private school they don't even have to follow the title IX rules as much as state funded universities. ASU tried to drop wrestling two months ago and the people of Arizona threw such a fit they kept it. Title IX or no title IX.

  • Soccer Coach For 25 years
    July 12, 2008 11:14 a.m.

    I've coached high school soccer, collegiate soccer and club soccer for 25 years. I've worked closely with athletic directors of three major univerisities, two of which are Utah schools.

    I appreciate the reasoning Chris Hill gives for not sponsoring men's soccer. They are legitimate excuses. Money, facilities, employees. However, there is one important factor that neither Chris nor this article addressed.

    Instiutional Bias.

    Boiling just under the radar are over forty years of it. In the late seventies and early eighties when the soccer movement began its thirty year explosvie growth among youth and high school aged players, football coaches saw the sport as a competitive drain on their programs. They were losing a few good athletes. Players with coodination. Players with speed. The bias continued into the professional ranks where the sport was viewed as a potential revenue loss if allowed to grow.

    Football coaches were very cool to any ideas that would allow the growth of men's soccer in colleges. Women's soccer, on the other hand, is a savior. Allowing a sport with large rosters and scholarships to offset the football rosters.

    Across the country most College ADs are former football coaches.

    You can connect the other dots.

  • Simple fact
    July 12, 2008 10:58 a.m.

    The truely great American men players coming out of high school go to Europe and if they are good enough play in the European circuit. Most guys I know even in college,UCSB, UCLA, Duke, etc. Stay maybe a year or two in college and jump to the pros. These guys in college don't plan on staying long.

  • California
    July 12, 2008 10:54 a.m.

    I agree with Soccer Bob. Title IX is the primary cause of the reduction of certain men's sports at Universities. That is the cost of equality. Wrestling was another sport that went by the wayside at many institutions.

    Most all universities are very careful to show a balance between the number of men and women's sports so as to avoid even the appearance of preference. What university wants to be exposed to the wrath of the NCAA and negative national publicity.

    A school could add another men's sport to its program by either adding another women's sport or deleting one of the men's. Life is full of choices.

    That being said it allows my family of girls to play Division 1 soccer.

    Is it fair?

  • byu soccer
    July 12, 2008 10:47 a.m.

    BYU did play NCAA soccer back in the day. Coach Dusara led that team in the 70's and 80's.

  • New blood
    July 12, 2008 10:16 a.m.

    More than anything I think soccer isn't an NCAA sport because too many administrators are "old school". They gre up on baseball and football and they just can't wrap their minds around soccer. Let's hope the next generation which has grown up on soccer makes better decisions.

    The fact we don't have more NCAA men's soccer teams is getting ridiculous. So many talented soccer players are losing out because of this. It's the most played youth sport in our country. Let's get with the times!

  • Soccer Steve
    July 12, 2008 10:14 a.m.

    Title IX. Men's Soccer could probably pay for itself with the right marketing. The problem is all the women's sports that don't generate ANY revenue, but have to be there because of title IX.

  • RE: Soccer Bob
    July 12, 2008 10:07 a.m.

    Sad, but true.

  • Serious
    July 12, 2008 9:04 a.m.

    Title IX is absolutely the reason Utah's colleges don't have mens programs. What are you going to see BYU drop their nationally dominant Volleyball team to pick up school sponsored Soccer? No way. How bout give up their wrestling program? O wait, they already did that and they stil don't have room for soccer, or rugby, or any other sports where locally Utahns excel.

    Soccer is a hard add on because who are you going to compete against? Nobody has the programs, and the reason nobody has the programs is because of Title IX.

    Now tell me where the equality is when 70% of boys participate in sports actively while only 20% of girls do, yet college sports need to offer an equal number of scholarships to boys and girls?

    College sports and scholarship requirements should be up to the university. It should be based on demand for the sport, the amount of success and revenue it could bring to the University, and not because of some government regulation.

    Title 9 promotes discrimination, not equality.

  • Go Team!!!
    July 12, 2008 8:34 a.m.

    Collegiate soccer is an exciting event. Tens of Americans can't be wrong.

  • Anonymous
    July 12, 2008 8:23 a.m.

    Yes, Title IX and Economics. The cost of Football and Basketball is incredible. Coaches, travel expenses, team expenses, and a new stadium carry a huge price tag.

    Why do sports need to be NCAA? Perhaps it is time to look at what BYU Idaho did. They cut all NCAA sports and put the money into intramural sports and other student activities. Now instead of one basketball and one football team that benefits only a handful, every student can participate on a team. I believe their model is the future of college sports where everyone competes and benefits. The side benefit is they no longer have all the academic problems and other problems caused by NCAA sports.

    Club sports is another great model. The BYU soccer club uses it effectively. UVU has a fantastic Hockey team that is a club. Great attendance and exciting play.

  • cost
    July 12, 2008 8:05 a.m.

    Here is what I believe it used to cost to have NCAA soccer at BYU: uniforms, use of a van or two for 3 or 4 road trips, gas, cheap motel rooms (or dorms at the school we played), and a coach. The coach was also a PE person if I can remember right and ran a camp in the summer. It doesn't seem that expensive.

    Is it possible that there aren't enough women's sports or sports interest to enable equality with men's sports? Is the issue that we have to be equal, even if it means that men's sports have to be dropped so that there aren't more men's sports than women's sports?

  • back in the day
    July 12, 2008 7:57 a.m.

    Back in the day, BYU had a wrastling and gymnastics team too but they were also 86'd by Title IX.

  • Anonymous
    July 12, 2008 7:30 a.m.

    i didn't even need to read the article:

    title IX.. not that hard to figure out!

  • Sad to see.
    July 12, 2008 6:59 a.m.

    It's sad that the most popular sport in the world has so little support here in the united states. The main problem is that Division IA schools can offer 85 football scholarships. That is such a huge number for the schools to try to provide equal opportunity in order to comply with title IX. The schools just use the excuse that these programs don't make money, when really they don't even want to give them a chance. You can't tell me that 11 of those 85 scholarships couldn't be taken from football and given to soccer, and both programs couldn't still have success. Especially if they did this in all universities.

  • Laurels
    July 12, 2008 6:51 a.m.

    Westminster gives mens soccer scholarships. My son currently has a soccer scholarship at Westminster. At the time he graduated from High School, Westminster was the ONLY mens program in the state that gave scholarships for mens soccer. That changes this year with the advent of the NCAA D-2 Dixie College program.

    Even though Westminster is NAIA, they are not associated with a conference, and their coach puts together their schedule each year such that they not only play NAIA teams but also several NCAA programs. The team currently has players who have transferred from playing for NCAA D-1 programs for a variety of reasons, e.g. desire to be closer to home, out-of-state costs, etc.

    My son had several NCAA programs offer him scholarships (D-1, D-2), but as noted in the article, the scholarship money for mens soccer doesn't cover a large percentage of the out-of-state tuition and living costs.

    Westminster has been generous with academic money as well as the soccer money. They are a phenomenal academic institution. It's been a great college choice for my son, both academically and athletically.

  • More to do with Title IX
    July 12, 2008 6:45 a.m.

    Most sports in college do not make any money, so the excuse cannot be economics, since other money loser sports are played. It all has to do with Title IX. The story says that it isn't all title IX since many other leagues do not offer mens soccer. They do not offer mens soccer due to title IX. Soccer is popular across the country, but until we do something about the arcane Title IX, mens soccer will not be played in college.

  • Anonymous
    July 12, 2008 6:24 a.m.

    What about baseball?
    They don't make much money

  • Ace Ventura
    July 12, 2008 1:36 a.m.

    Ah, yes...political correctness reigns. Chris Hill knows full well that Title IX is the culprit, and so does every other university AD in the state. And it's not just soccer. Although BYU has never fielded an NCAA-level men's soccer team, it used to have stellar programs in men's wrestling and gymnastics. As Mr. Hill notes, it's very costly to gen up a program from scratch, but these were two programs that were fielding highly competitive teams year after year that fell prey to Title IX "equality". BYU made the decision in 1999 to terminate those programs because other Mountain West schools dropped their programs to balance the slate. Any one who says otherwise needs to check their history.

    I think it's truly exciting to see the rise in women's NCAA sports, but we didn't need to toss out the baby with the bath water. This doesn't need to be a "zero sum" scenario, where you have to hurt men's sports to boost women's. The point the article makes is spot on--college-bound men who are wrestlers, gymnasts or soccer players have dramatically reduced choices when it comes to scholarships, which saddens me. They're all great sports with great athletes.

  • Soccer Bob
    July 12, 2008 12:50 a.m.

    Title IX and Economics... If it doesn't pay, they don't play.