Death penalty has purpose

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  • Anonymous
    July 5, 2008 1:33 p.m.

    I think locking someone up forever is a good price to pay for their misdeeds.

  • RE: peter
    July 5, 2008 12:26 a.m.

    I Gave an example: cleansing the temple.

    NOT the actions a pacifist.

    what more do you need?

    He came to deliver the his gospel, setup his church, be an example, suffer for or sins so we could repent and gain forgiveness, and die and be resurrected to break the bonds of death for all of us.

    His MORTAL mission wasn't about fighting wars and punishing the wicked.

    So there is no record of it during his mortal life.

    But there are plenty of statements from Jesus and his apostles in the New testment about Justice, and that Justice must be met. Must be satisfied.

    In person or by proxy (hence his suffering for our sins)

    But someone must pay the price.


  • Peter
    July 4, 2008 5:51 p.m.

    Jesus came as the shepard, to guide and direct, and was much of the time very much a pacifist by his actions. He did say he would return as the lion however.

    The conservative posts here would do better actually giving examples from the bible like the liberals are doing instead of just vaguely saying Jesus wasn't a pacifist.

    ie: The chapter in Matt. 7:1 "Judge not lest ye be judged" goes on to say and explain the statement and command saying something like you will be judged by the standards you judge others. So if you are harboring secret desires for sex with children, condeming someone else who does or practices will cause you to be judged in the same fashion. It is a passage telling you not to be a hypocrite.

  • Jesuit Dude
    July 4, 2008 1:29 p.m.

    The title of this article is obvious: "Death Penalty has purpose" -- yeah, the purpose of the death penalty is to KILL SOMEONE! Duh!

    If it is ever justified to kill another human being, then we enter into an endless debate over what conditions justify killing.

    Self-defense? Not so fast. Islamic terrorists believe that Western culture is destroying their religion and way of life--destroying their lives. Hence, they kill in "self-defense".

    Some civil rights leaders in America argued very persuasively that the white establishment was killing black communities with crime, poverty, and racism. They responded with violence and killing.

    Justifying killing opens a Pandora's box that can never be closed. The only humane, sane, intelligent position to take is to forbid killing for any reason. Yes, there will be sociopaths and criminals who will kill. But killing them in return will not bring back their victims, and will only open that Pandora's box even wider. There are always other ways to accomplish humane objectives without killing. Always. We have found many and need to find more.

  • 123
    July 4, 2008 11:14 a.m.

    You are right, Jesus was not a pacifist. That is why when Peter drew his sword and cut off Malchus' ear, Jesus joined in and they defeated the army sent to take him away. That is why Jesus organized a large army and defeated the Romans, freeing the Jews from their bondage. That is why there really was no crucifixion and no resurrection. Jesus was actually a great and mighty warrior and political leader who established the Mormon Church that (must have) secretly survived for two thousand years in the Salt Lake Valley.

    Did I get a few details wrong? Oh, I'm sorry. But I'm sure I'm as close as many of the war-mongers commenting on this site!

  • To No Thanks
    July 4, 2008 7:51 a.m.

    You may want to read the red words of your New Testament since Jesus was NOT the pacifist you believe Him to be.

  • Emma
    July 4, 2008 7:48 a.m.

    Rape is murder of the soul. I know.

  • David
    July 4, 2008 7:46 a.m.

    The death penalty is definitely a deterrent to crime. The person put to death will most certainly be deterred from any additional criminal activities. That person will also not be able to breed and pass on violent genetic tendencies.

    As for Jesus being a pacifist, why then did he say he would come with a sword? Was He planning on using that sword for spreading butter?

  • No thanks
    July 4, 2008 2:46 a.m.

    My God is NOT the barbaric Old Testament God who punishes people and throws them into hell for their transgressions (because He 'loves' them).
    The son of God appeared on the scene to change that old-fashioned negative way of thinking. He preached again and again forgiveness and turning the other cheek. Those who insist on worshipping the Old Testament God are projecting their personal negatively and useless and destructive behavior on the rest of the world (and country) that now espouses preemptive mass destruction of civilians, torture and never-ending war.
    No thank you. I will always choose the kind words of Jesus Christ on this subject.

  • Anonymous
    July 4, 2008 1:59 a.m.

    I don't think justice and mercy have to be mutually exclusive. Why is retribution so important to people?

  • Anonymous
    July 3, 2008 10:01 p.m.

    To reiterate, everything you are accusing the liberals of, the conservatives are just as guilty of, really more so since they condemn freedom of speech and push legislation through congress removing civil rights. Grandma has now been stripped search on 3 seperate flights...she is 69 and can barely walk.

  • RE: Chris
    July 3, 2008 9:58 p.m.

    Not all punishment is about the victim sometimes it is about the crime.

    Because as I tried to say some crimes can not be undone.

    But justice must still be meted out.

    So what is justice for s murder?

    What is justice for s raped?

    IS Justice for the rape of an adult the same as the rape of a little child?

    With our limited ability to apply justice, and the continuing limiting and narrowing of punishment, is it any wonder no one feels they get any justice anymore?

    There is no joy or pleasure in punishing someone, nor should there be.

    But it is an unpleasant task us adults must do.

  • Anonymous
    July 3, 2008 9:57 p.m.

    Both parties are equally guilty of these type of things. Just as a child molestor can call himself a christian a hypocrite can call themselves a republican or a democrat. Both parties are full of corruption. Just look at all the litigation, bribery and criminal suits being filed and fought against political lawyers and politicions at the moment.

    ATM if you really want a verdict you bribe the judge, you do know thats what happened with big tobacco right?

  • RE: peter
    July 3, 2008 9:48 p.m.

    YOur definition of liberal promotes tolerance understanding openmindedness.

    IS that why they condemnd The VP for speaking at a college

    Or condemn any conservative from speaking at a institution of higher learning.

    Or roit and stop a minutemnan from speaking at a college.

    While applauding the president of Iran.


    Or attacking conservatives voices any time they can.= and wanting then removed from the airwaves an tv.

    While wallowing in liberal hatered for anyone that disagrees with them.

    Mocking and ridiculing and name-calling anyone disagrees with gays.

    Mocking and rideculing the institution of religion and marriage.

    Maocking ands ridiculing name-calling anyone with moral vaules?

    Is having hate for anyone go along with you

    whilke using every ngative adjective to descibe conservatives

    is that promoting tolerance or open mindedness.

    We can have different views of what is Justice.

    Without putting the other side down, then claiming the high horse. while you are in ifact acting no different that what you claim in the others.


  • Anonymous
    July 3, 2008 9:37 p.m.

    Everyone here seems to know God almost personally. I don't claim to know or understand him for then I would be him.

    He is merciful and vengeful, fearsome and merciful, he seems to contradict himself nonstop, but like I said how can I know the mind of God, all I can do is follow his teachings and both fear and love him.

  • Anonymous
    July 3, 2008 9:33 p.m.

    Jesus Christ was definately a pacifist.

    Something about him coming as the sheperd and returning as the lion.

    So I would guess Jesus WILL be anything but a pacifist.

    Notice the past and future tenses?

  • Peter
    July 3, 2008 9:32 p.m.

    During the Civil War Republicans were primarily centered in the north in urban cities while the Democrats were more southern thinking and more prominent in rural areas.

    Seems the two parties have switched places somewhere along the line, I wonder why that is. Sounds like alot of people lost faith and that grass was greener.

  • Peter
    July 3, 2008 9:24 p.m.

    Liberal: someone who promotes tolerance, understanding and open minded views to promote a better lifestyle and morals

    Conservative: someone who promotes recession, oppression, repression and force to force a better lifestyle and morals

    I like balance, I guess I am an independent
    Force is needed at times, so is tolerence

    For instance, Pearl Harbor got bombed, we responded, an act I would see as acceptable force

    Just as I in no way support the kidnapping of the RLDS children from their mothers whatever your views of them may be I cannot see how putting them in crackhead project foster homes is a better environment then they are currently in even if the women are oppressed, for in one the child will have a good deal of morals, if slightly twisted from mainstream, but in the other the child has a 90% of being a criminal and as mike would put it, a weed

  • Chris
    July 3, 2008 8:50 p.m.

    To RE: good luck...

    You've said, "The victim gets nothing from someone sitting in jail cell." Just curious, but what does the victim get from someone being put to death?

    I think it was Gandhi who said, "an eye for an eye just leaves the world blind."

  • RE: good luck...
    July 3, 2008 8:34 p.m.

    Christ was NOT the ultiamte pacifist.

    Did he not violently remove the money changers from th etemple?

    You clearly do not know Christ.

    AS he said they draw near me with their lips, but hearts are far from him.

    You seemed to be hung up on blood atonement.

    But ignore Justice.

    You take a life, you take something you can never give back.

    But in your twisted fantasy world, sitting in s cell for 30 years, somehow makes it all equal again.

    In the historical eyes of justice, Justice was meted out when payment for the crime was equal or usually greater than ( for punitive reasons) the crime or what was taken.

    One can easily payback a stolen loaf a bread.

    How do you payback an intentionally stolen life?

    The victim gets nothing from someone sitting in jail cell.

    When you understand the true concept of Justice,

    You may begin to understand what is required.




  • good luck next lifetime
    July 3, 2008 5:31 p.m.

    Jesus Christ was/is the ultimate pacifist. And his teachings on this subject and reverence for all life are well-documented.
    But sadly, there areSTILL some twisted individuals who have been force-fed the ugly principle of blood atonement since day one.
    Not much hope for reaching nirvana for these types I'm afraid. Not it THIS lifetime anyway.
    Better luck in the next one.

  • Bob O.
    July 3, 2008 5:01 p.m.

    Anonymous,

    I would be happy to if there was enough space -- on this comment section and in your mental capacity.

    More to the point are Buddhist notions relevant to capital punishment.

    Some "enlightened ones" in the Buddhist tradition have insisted on being complete pacifists:

    "Aware of the suffering caused by the destruction of life, I vow to cultivate compassion and learn ways to protect lives of people, animals, plants, and minerals. I am determined not to kill, not to let others kill, and not to condone any killing in the world, in my thinking, and in my way of life.
    --Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh.

    Also:
    "Everyone fears punishment; everyone fears death, just as you do. Therefore do not kill or cause to kill. Everyone fears punishment; everyone loves life, as you do. Therefore do not kill or cause to kill."

    The Avatamsaka-sutra (also known as the Buddhavatamsaka-sutra), by contrast, is considered by many Buddhists to be a justification for the deterrent function of capital (and other kinds of) punishment.

    The point, however, is that Buddhist opposition to or support of capital punishment is not necessarily (or even exclusively) based on the idea of Karma (good or bad).

  • Anonymous
    July 3, 2008 4:28 p.m.

    Why not tell my all you know about Christianity and Buddhism - Bob O?

  • Bob O.
    July 3, 2008 2:43 p.m.

    Anonymous obviously knows nothing about Christianity NOR Buddhism.

    Generic descriptions of people as "enlightened beings" is something to which Western Philosophy laid claim long before you could define "Buddhism" or give it an identity as a movement. Your nebulous word games do not create a religion nor a philosophy, especially by someone so poor at it as yourself.

    Buddhism has a history of capital punishment, as does Christianity. Your ambiguous, eclectic, self-defined "budism" and its twisted and diluted law of "karma" are little better than scraps from "The Secret" and are popular nonsense, not philosophy. Go back to school, my friend, and quit wasting people's time with your bubble-gum, Guitar-Hero trivialities.

  • Anonymous
    July 3, 2008 2:03 p.m.

    Bob O. obviously knows nothing about the fastest-growing philosophy in the world - Buddhism.

    The word "buddha" means "an enlightened being."
    Jesus Christ with his transforming the ugly eye-for-an eye Old Testament philosophy to a turn the other cheek New Testament one is but one small example.

  • Bob O.
    July 3, 2008 1:18 p.m.

    No wonder people think Utahns and Mormons are not Christian.

    Jesus was a Buddha? Nonsense. Maybe from a Buddhist perspective, but a Buddhist interpretation of Christianity is NOT CHRISTIANITY!

    No, what I said was not harsh. It was the truth. Mixing up religious ideas to form your own eclectic belief system is abominable. It is not true to Christianity nor to Buddhism. It dilutes and distorts both. It has no business being used for anything but personal entertainment, like fortune cookies and horoscopes.

  • Anonymous
    July 3, 2008 12:57 p.m.

    Bob O thinks religion (I'm assuming he means the words of Jesus Christ v capital punishment)
    should be in the trash heap.

    A pure wonder these conservatives are - aren't they?

  • death penalty is evil
    July 3, 2008 12:43 p.m.

    No, Bob O. -
    Real Christians most certainly DO believe in the law of Karma, what goes around, comes around, etc.
    In fact, Jesus Christ was a buddha (supremely enlightened one)and in MAINSTREAM Christianity death penalty is an abomination.
    If you are locked on to the barbaric Old Testament, blood atonement monstrosity - that is YOUR problem.

  • Chris
    July 3, 2008 12:31 p.m.

    To Bob O.

    Don't you think what you just said to Karma was rather harsh and uncalled for? I'm sure you can be much kinder if you really try.

  • Bob O.
    July 3, 2008 12:01 p.m.

    To Karma,

    Christians do not believe in Karma. "Vengence is mine, saith the Lord" is a quote from the Bible and is a Christian concept.

    Keep your ad hoc, religious eclecticism where it belongs: in fortune cookies and in the trash heap.

  • Karma
    July 3, 2008 11:32 a.m.

    When a person is a rabid advocate of putting people to death for vengeful reasons, they run a precarious path to the very real possibility of the same thing happening to them.

    This is the universal law of karma.

    Revenge is MINE, says the Lord.

  • John
    July 3, 2008 10:50 a.m.

    This is all so ridiculous. Just because I don't believe in the death penalty doesn't make me a liberal, nor does it make me soft on crime. I just happen to think there are more appropriate punishments that can possibly lead to reform. I'd hate to be responsible for taking away someone's right to change. Even worse, to execute an innocent man. How do I justify that to God? I know the odds are slim, but not impossible. It's not up to me to decide when someone's mortal probation will end. But I can put them away in the meantime to protect society.

    And why does this always have to turn to abortion? I also support legalized abortion, and that also does not make me a liberal. It has to be legal otherwise what would the mother do if her life were in danger? That doesn't mean I support people using it to erase bad choices, but those are the consequences. And to all of those who are truly against it in all forms, would you be willing to adopt all these unwanted children if they were not aborted? What would we do with them? Stick them in Romanian-style orphanages?

  • to: RE: Anony 6:34
    July 3, 2008 3:36 a.m.

    Just follow the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ on forgiveness v capital punishment and all will be well with you.
    You cannot just merely provide lip-service in this case.
    Trust me.

  • What is justice?
    July 2, 2008 7:44 p.m.

    Some of you seem so intent on vengeance. Do you want all rapists to be publicly caned or be-headed? You don't think being locked in a tiny cell of a prison for 30 years is punishment? Well, just bring out the water-boards, and let the justice begin.

  • L.G.
    July 2, 2008 7:40 p.m.

    To L.G. | 7:12 p.m.

    Thank you for the empathy. But to be honest, I have not believed in God for many years now, probably because of what I have been through. There was nobody there. Nobody put a stop to it. Nobody helped me. I was and continue to be completely alone. I get no comfort from promises that he will get justice in some afterlife because I don't believe in one. I continue to attend Church just to be with a few friends I have, but I get nothing out of it. except sometimes I get angry because I hear people give talks and lessons that really make me mad!

    But thanks for trying to understand. I know it sounds cruel, but I still think there should be some sort of torture for child rapists so they can suffer at least in some small sense the way they make their victims suffer.

  • RE: Anony 6:34
    July 2, 2008 7:27 p.m.

    YOu are very good ayapping on about forgiveness.

    Anyone can quote scripture without any understanding and ignoring context at all.

    Are you suggesting we use the bible as part of our jurisprudence?

    But anyways the bad guys and the evil doers still must be judged and punished.

    Why don't give us your enlighten theories on how we should punish people.

    I fail to see how putting someone in cell with cable tv and all books they can read and bed to rest much as they want as punishment or justice for the victim.

    Whether it is 30 days or 30 years.

    Clearly your brainless quoting of scripture while ignoring others show you have no compassion for the victims or have any desire for them to get justice.

    The same Jesus you love to quote violently cleansed the money changers from the temple. PLease reconcile this.

    I still can't find one actual example of jesus forgiving anyone. he didn't forgive the prositute he just said he doesn't condemn her, he "asked" for forgiveness for his executioners but he didn't personally forgive anyone.

    NOT ONE EXAMPLE.

    You only have a few words in a model for prayer which you mindlessly repeatedly quote.

  • To L.G.
    July 2, 2008 7:12 p.m.

    What an absolutely horrible thing to have endured. So sad that your family refused to recognize and believe you, and that they are still blaming you. I can't help but wonder if their criticism and blame would be even worse if he had been given the death penalty.

    I don't know if you would feel better about your own life if he had been killed, or not, but I do know that eventually EVERYONE gets the death penalty. No one makes it out of this world alive, and then, he will have to face the one judge who really matters, the only one who knows all the real reasons and circumstances of what actually happened. Justice delayed is NOT justice denied.

  • Anonymous
    July 2, 2008 6:34 p.m.

    It's common knowledge that the FLDS people are still hung up on the blood atonement thing - but I am shocked at the number of LDS who are having a hard time letting go of it even after Jesus commanded them to.

    Very sad indeed.

  • L. G.
    July 2, 2008 6:16 p.m.

    The punishment must fit the crime.

    OK, capital punishment fits the crime of murder.

    What punishment fits the crime of raping a child and destroying their ability to function in society? Sometimes being alive is worse than death. What punishment would fit the crime of destroying an innocent child's happiness to such an extent that they take their own life years later?

    Don't try to tell me about justice until you have been repeatedly raped the way I was by my uncle! I did the right thing and told my parents and the police. At first they didn't believe me because he was an important local LDS leader. But after a couple of years, they finally could no longer deny it. He got thrown in prison, but the entire extended family have been blaming me ever since! How could I destroy such a righteous man's life?! But what about MY life?

    Don't tell me about justice until you can show me the scars on YOUR arms from trying to commit suicide so many times I stopped counting!

    The death penalty is TOO GOOD for child rapists! It lets them off too easily!

  • neocons easily swayed
    July 2, 2008 5:20 p.m.

    The problem with any group of people who think they can do no wrong (right is right)is that they are easily swayed by the politics of the day to support even the useless murder of others.
    All one has to do is push their emotional buttons and people being people believe they must be obedient to the perpetrator of capital punishment in lieu of the crystal-clear teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  • Justice perverted
    July 2, 2008 4:55 p.m.

    Child rape is wrong. Child rape isn't Child murder.

    The punishment must fit the crime. Killing a man who is not a murderer is wrong.

    This is a conservative view and ANYONE who apposes this ought to realize how unjust they are. This isn't even eye for an eye. It's less than that. Eye for an eye has been done away with. You people pretend to be LDS.

  • Ears to Hear?
    July 2, 2008 4:14 p.m.

    Few religious groups are as blood-thirsty as the Latter-day Saints. A large majority of LDS not only support capital punishment, but do so with a self-righteous indignation that is truly surprising. I suppose that stems from all their history where their leaders (who are considered to speak on behalf of God Himself) have emphasized blood atonement, a willingness to kill in the name of obedience to God (Moutain Meadows), and they even have an assassination in their scriptures (Nephi, a prophet of God, cuts off the head of a defenseless man). Is it any wonder Jesus' teachings fall on deaf ears in Mormon congregations?

  • how fast the ignore Jesus
    July 2, 2008 11:16 a.m.

    Amazing how fast some people will blatantly ignore the words of the most liberal man that ever lived for some cheap, seedy, and barbaric political party
    and its nasty ideology.

  • Its simple, really:
    July 2, 2008 10:12 a.m.

    Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
    And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
    give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
    Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
    For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    (Matthew5:38-48)

  • Nice to know
    July 2, 2008 8:51 a.m.

    I live in Texas where the state actually executes those on death row. It's a very active death row and inmates are executed for the crimes they commit. I absolutely hate to see the many vicious and heinous crimes that are committed, but there is at least a little comfort knowing these scumbags will be put to death for the crimes they commit. Whereas, in Utah if a convict is on Death Row, he will end up dying from natural causes instead of execution.

  • To RE: Think of...
    July 2, 2008 8:47 a.m.

    I would NEVER say that child rape is OK. And I agree that we need to teach children right from wrong, consequences, and that they CAN speak up for justice.

    I absolutely believe that the victim must be kept safe from the perpetrator. I also know that most perpetrators are friends or relatives, and that many children are quick to assume "responsibility" for things that are in no way their fault.

    I think many, many children would simply feel mortified if they believed that they were the reason for the death of their own father, brother, etc. (even if he had been raping them for months).

    Of course we can give them counseling and tell them that they did the right thing, but that's still a pretty heavy burden for a child to live with. They've just survived one terrible trauma. Do you want to introduce one more?

  • Anonymous
    July 2, 2008 7:09 a.m.

    The bottom line:

    "...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

  • RE: Think of...
    July 1, 2008 11:24 p.m.

    So you are saying chid rape is okay, it has no real victims, even if you are rape over 120 times in six months?

    HOw about teaching children right and wrong and that there are consequences for wrong?

    HOw about teaching children their voice is important and they can speak out and get justice?

    Child psychologisst are finding out it more helpful and healthy and makes it easier and quicker to get over what happend to them if they are allowed to speakout in court. Denying their voice is actually doing more harm.

  • Think of the child
    July 1, 2008 10:07 p.m.

    That anonymous poster was right, "MOST child rapists are known to their victims. They are friends, relatives, neighbors, etc. Most do NOT kill their victims." I was sexually abused by my brother-in-law when I was a child. I didn't dare tell anyone because I was so afraid he would be sent to jail, and everyone would blame me. I can't even imagine what would go through a child's mind if they thought they would be responsible for someone's death. Try thinking of this ordeal from a child's perspective. Most children are much quicker to forgive than adults.

  • RE: anony 6:10
    July 1, 2008 7:56 p.m.

    I have three questions.

    IS there separation of government and church/religion?

    Does this mean criminals should not be punished and victims get no justice?

    How will justice be satisfied?

  • Very Interesting
    July 1, 2008 6:59 p.m.

    It is interesting how liberals will use the New Testament to support the abolition of the death penalty. I thought in their world of separation of Church and State that religion was never to be brought up. The execution of murders is an issue of State and not of religion. The death penalty for murder has been imposed by all past civilizations and of all religions. It was a way for governments to met out the worst punishment for the worst offenders of civil law. Now the liberals are making it a religious argument. How convenient when it fits their agenda. But let someone try and pray in the public school and then they throw religion right out the door.

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2008 6:10 p.m.

    "...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

    I love the Lord's Prayer.!

  • RE: Best part...
    July 1, 2008 6:03 p.m.

    Fogiveness is good. Forgiveness is divine.

    But in a "liberal" world there is NO JUSTICE for the victim.

    What about JUSTICE?

    Does not JUSTICE need to be satisfied?

    Jesus certainly said so.

  • Best part of The Lord's Prayer
    July 1, 2008 5:44 p.m.

    I've noticed how casually Mike Richards above is prone to longer and longer tirades to support the revenge-killings of those he does not like.

    All the more reason for the rest of us to remember THESE simple words:
    "... and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2008 5:18 p.m.

    IT's fine to forgive the perpetrator.

    But it doesn't punish the perpetrator for his actions.

    Nor give justice to the victim.

    Jesus never forgave anyone. (he didn't forgive the prostitute, he just told to go sin no more, he NEVER said he forgave her he just wasn't condemning [punishing] her either)

    The only people Jesus ASKED his father to forgive was his executioners.

    So where does this big lesson on forgiveness come from?

    Jesus taught if anyone offend a little one it is better they hung millstone around their neck and drowned themselves.

    Sounds pretty serious to commit crime against a little child.

    There must be Justice

    Heb.11.33: who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice

    He condemned those who didn't give real justice:

    Luke.11.42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

    There MUST be justice.

    HOw does sitting in jail cell for months or years bring justice?

    It does nothing to satisfy justice.

    Until equality is brought for his actions no justice happens.

    Until the victim says: "it is enough", justice is not done.

  • Do want you want ...
    July 1, 2008 3:41 p.m.

    Nice job at trying to bait-and-switch Jesus Forgives (aka Mike Richards), but while you want to put people to death for vengeful reasons, I think I'll just stick with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ who revered all life and told us to forgive those who trespass against us.

  • Jesus Forgives Child Rapists?
    July 1, 2008 2:18 p.m.

    To Scripture,

    I thought the LDS believed that Jesus (Jehovah) IS the God of the Old Testament?

    If that is true, why was Jesus (Jehovah) such a barbaric (eye for an eye) kind of god before he was born, and then was all about love and forgiveness after?

    Doesn't make much sense does it? Would the Jesus of the New Testament really have ordered the genocide of several peoples as Jehovah did in the Old Testament?

    And what about Jesus' teaching that those who "offend" little children would have been better off with stones tied around them and they be cast into the sea? That sounds like the death penalty (ala The Godfather) to me!

    Hmmmmmm...

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2008 11:23 a.m.

    I think Anonymous 10:42 has been watching way too much TV.

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2008 10:42 a.m.

    To Anonymous | 6:50 a.m.

    "A child rapist will kill anyone who can identfy them no matter what."

    MOST child rapists are known to their victims. They are friends, relatives, neighbors, etc. Most do NOT kill their victims. Most poison their victims minds that it is the victims fault or scare them into silence. FYI

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2008 8:58 a.m.

    As the machiavellians stage their last stand in trying to force neocon authoritarianism on people - the majority of Americans stick to the Christian principles and follow Jesus' liberal examples and teachings.
    Thank God for the old America I used to know and love!

  • how its done
    July 1, 2008 8:42 a.m.

    Note how often anonymous 6:50 uses the word "liberal" in his tirade.
    This is how they got the Bush/Cheney administration in power.

  • Anonymous
    July 1, 2008 6:50 a.m.

    Let me get this "liberal" logic straight:

    Child rapists are NOT concerned about getting identified because they will not get the death penalty.

    But if will get the death penalty they WILL be concerned about being identified.

    Just being found out they are child rapist doesn't worry them.

    What kind sick twisted mind numbing logic is this anyways?

    Clearly only something a liberal mind could think up to excuse punishing a child rapist.

    A child rapist will kill anyone who can identfy them no matter what.

    It's not the death penalty that stops them, it's thinking the victim will not say anythng.

    How could liberal logic be so stupid and nieve?

    It's like they just make up lies to themselves to make what ever they think all right.

  • scripture
    July 1, 2008 6:42 a.m.

    Here's what I know about scripture:
    Old Testament's barbaric eye-for-an-eye has been washed away and replaced with New Testament's Jesus Christ's spirit of forgiveness.

  • Both Ways
    July 1, 2008 4:38 a.m.

    I believe Mike Richards is saying most conservatives believe in the death penalty and not in abortion rights. He is also saying most liberals do not believe in the death penalty but support abortion rights. To me both seem inconsistent. I believe in the sanctity of life at both ends. I think more protection needs to be in place for unborn children. But it is also a difficult decision to put even the most hardened criminals to death, if life in prison is an option.

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 11:34 p.m.

    To 10:31,

    Truth is truth no matter where it is found.

    A truly religious person knows that truth comes from God through one means or another.

    Great scientists, such as Henry Eyring, had no difficulty accepting God as the author of truth. Great scientists are also humble enough to know that just because they can't prove something doesn't mean that it isn't true.

    The danger comes when someone dismisses truth because it is found in religion, especially when that person has no belief in God. An equally serious danger comes when someone has a very limited understanding of God, but thinks that his limited understanding of God encompasses all of humanity's knowledge of God.

    So, where does that leave us in this discussion about capital punishment? When someone quotes a scripture and claims that that scripture represents God's entire viewpoint on a subject, that person has no understanding of God, of scripture or of truth.

    On the other hand, when someone quotes the Supreme Court and uses the Court's rulings to define truth, that person has no understanding of the law or of truth.

    Truth contains all laws, but law does not contain all truth. There is a difference.

  • Difference
    June 30, 2008 11:30 p.m.

    There is a difference between what I should do and what society should do. I should forgive those that wrong me. Society should punish those people. If the death penalty is affixed to a crime and somebody choses to commit it, that person must be punished by death or the society falls apart- just as if people quit stopping at red lights. Also, nobody should have to pay to keep someone alive that no longer has a place in society.

  • JenM
    June 30, 2008 11:11 p.m.

    To Just a Guy:
    I just want to say welcome to Utah, and welcome to the LDS faith! I think the most important thing any of us can do is to follow what we feel in our hearts. I strongly believe we have all been given a conscience that is indeed that part of divinity within us. I think if you really know yourself you should be able to trust what you feel (and think). Anyways, those are just my thoughts. Me, personally, I lean a little left, but it works for me. Anyways, welcome, if you actually are still reading in here.

  • Just another guy
    June 30, 2008 10:51 p.m.

    I am from out state.

    I am appalled at the hatred i see from liberals and non mormons have toward mormons and conservatives.

    I have never seen hate from liberals it like I have been reading these comments.

    I have never seen liberals so full hate for a religion or an opposing viewpoint except in washington D.C.

    Liberals talk a good game about accepting everyone and tolerance for everything but sure play different game.

    While at the same time I read the conservative viewpoints that are without hate and very patient respectful of their attacking opponents,

    but same time trying to explain their point view.

    While liberals attack them in hatred for everything, utahn-ness, conservatism, religion, etc.

    just a guy you are wrong on where the hatred is coming from, very wrong.

    and really a soft way to do the same attacking.

    You fool no one.

    HOw does raping a little chld many times equate to jail time?

    I don't see the equality of punishment nor justice.

    The SCOTUS ruling said the punishment MUST fit the crime. (eye for eye?!)

    HOw does it fit??? HOw did the victim get justice???

    How does resting in a cell equate to justice?

  • Just a Guy
    June 30, 2008 10:31 p.m.

    Mike-Thanks, I agree about following the prophet. Since I joined the church, the most viscious attacks against the church that I have witnessed have come from the Religious Conservatives that are not Mormon. I really haven't picked up on the whole "hate religion" thing from the liberals that I have encountered. Everyone I know from my hometown is non-mormon and Republican. I haven't heard anything as awful as those good god-fearing Republicans speaking about the Church.

  • RE: To Mike
    June 30, 2008 10:29 p.m.

    Thanks for point out how insidious the rape of a child is.

    And thanks to the generosity of the liberals child rapists can spend the rest of their life in a tax paid condo.

    NOT really justice, but liberals don't believe in that.

    HOW DOES PUTTING ANYONE IN A CELL FOR ANY LENGTH TIME BRING ABOUT JUSTICE?????

    Where's the justice? Where's the punishment?

    Timeouts don't work adults. They hardly even work with children.

    Liberals would rather forgive all the bad guys until their brains fall out rather do the stark reality of punishing you have to do.

    Where can real justice be found?




  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 10:21 p.m.

    To 9:41,

    The most amazing thing about the "Mormon" Church is that they have a Prophet who speaks for the Church. If you want to know the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on any subject, you need to listen to the Prophet.

    Many Liberals hate religion and those who belong to any faith. They prefer to live in a godless society where they are free to make up rules that suit them for any particular circumstance. Those Liberals take pot shots at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They love nothing more than to point their fingers at anyone who affiliates with that Church.

    Yes, I am very proud to be a member of that Church; but, I don't speak for the Church.

    There is a big difference between speaking one's mind and being a spokesman. The first is the obligation of every citizen. The second is a privilege given by those in authority to a select few.

    The main requirement to be a good Mormon is to keep Christ's commandments - all of them - as set forth by His prophets.

  • Mark B
    June 30, 2008 10:13 p.m.

    Short answer to "just a guy"- no.
    As for Charles, congrats on concluding as I do, that FINAL judgment is not to be avoided. Since that's the case, what's the hurry on trying to deal out the punishment now? Sure, there are people who just can't be allowed loose again, but if we simply let eternal judgment take care of itself, we will not have spent extra funds, given someone another reason for a drunken party outside a prison or mistakenly executed the wrong person. And, though I know you don't care, we will also be seen by our western allies as more sane. I'll take those every day over some phony "closure".

  • LDS CONSERVATIVE!!
    June 30, 2008 10:07 p.m.

    Death penalty for anything less than murder is LESS THAN eye for and eye.

    It's disgusting that the people have become unforgiving. How 'bout that for a liberal attitude?

    I HATE NOTHING MORE than people in Utah who think that any view aside from their own isn't Conservative. I personally feel that LDS doctrine wouldn't support something less than eye for an eye. WE DON'T EVEN SUPPORT THAT.

    Think I'm rude all you want but you attacked other views aside from your own and I'm defending what I believe is Truth.

  • Just a guy
    June 30, 2008 9:41 p.m.

    I have been sitting back all day watching this discussion take place. I'm actually new to Utah and new the the Mormon church. I haven't completely formed a political philosophy yet and I'm interested in every perspective. I must say that in today's discussion, at least, the conservative perspective as presented by Charles and Mike seems judgmental and angry and poorly thought out. I don't really want to be like them. Is that a requirement when one becomes a "good" Mormon?

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 9:24 p.m.

    to someone you know....wrong on all accounts my friend. I'm not a Utahn and I'm not looking for any fight. Funny you would use those words. All I asked was for Alpaca to back up his claims. It was, and still is, a simple request. I don't want to know what Google says, I want to hear what Alpaca says.

    You must be a typical liberal because when you get asked to support your theories you retreat to you bedrooms and close the door. Obama is doing it, Pelosi and Reid do it, Schumer, Durbin, Clinton; the whole lot of them.

    There is a right and a wrong; that's what this life is about to distinguish between the two and do what is right. What's sad is that liberals don't believe in right and wrong; only what "feels" good in their live and let live world.

    It doesn't really matter if there is a death penalty because come judgment day; they will get theirs and it won't be pretty...but liberals will feel good for not judging someone's actions and behaviors and pat themselves on the back for standing next to them all the way down......

  • One Utah Mother
    June 30, 2008 8:57 p.m.

    To SFMI

    You wrote: "Why can we not sentence them to life without parole? That would serve Justice, protect society, and punish those that deserve it." I think this is an excellent idea, probably much less expensive for society, and easier or the victim, than a round of endless appeals and court appearances.

  • SFMI
    June 30, 2008 8:41 p.m.

    to One Utah Mother, I think people who kill others and rape adults or children are not in their right minds, especially rapists. They do not think or even worry about the consequences/death penalty. But one problem that we have is that so many get out and rape again and again. Why can we not sentence them to life without parole? That would serve Justice, protect society, and punish those that deserve it.

  • Someone You Know
    June 30, 2008 8:34 p.m.

    AlpacaFamilia is not your dancing pig Charles. He doesn't need to respond your your every taunt. It isn't hard to find out what the argument is. Just google Jesus/social/liberal and you will get an idea what the general argument is. It is a widely argued point of view. You just wanted a fight. That has always been obvious. In the normal course of things, when I see that many people have a different point of view than I do, I take pause and consider the possibility that I am wrong. Utah Conservatives, on the other hand, see opposiing points of view as divine validation that they are correct. "What I believe must be true, because so many of the ungodly don't agree with me." This is a pathology that leads to zealotry and poverty of thought.

  • To Mike
    June 30, 2008 8:34 p.m.

    I can understand your outrage at injustice against innocent children, but do you really believe that we live in a society that "welcomes child rape?"

    Have you heard anyone advocating for more rape, or to "honor" rapists? I could never "excuse" their behavior, but I don't think it is up to me to kill them either. Think of the child for a moment. In most cases they are raped by relatives or someone very close to the family. How hard would it be for that child to live with having been raped and then also having to survive the death of their father, brother, or favorite uncle?

    Rape can be very vicious and violent, but it can also happen in a more gentle way that is extremely confusing to a child. Sometimes the child is made to feel "extra special" because of what is happening. I know this is absolutely bizarre, but it happens.

    Sometimes it's easier to live with the perpetrator being safely locked away than it is to believe you may have been responsible for his death. There's more than just one "black and white" way to look at this.

  • One Utah Mother
    June 30, 2008 8:15 p.m.

    Dear, dear Mike,

    You seem so angry and out-of-focus to me, but I don't know what to say that could possibly influence you. I honestly don't think there is ANYONE at all on this site who believes in hurting innocent children. Where did you ever get that idea? I'm a mother, and I cringe at the thought of anyone ever harming a child. I'm also lost as to how you would think ANYONE in their right mind could possibly desire that.

    My own personal thinking is that having the death penalty for rapists actually puts our children at a greater risk. Once a rapist has actually raped a child, what possible motivation would there be for him to keep that child alive if he knows a death penalty awaits him if he is caught? It might not be much of a deterrent, but it might possibly make him think twice about killing my child if he realizes that raping her doesn't have as serious of a consequence as murdering her does.

    Again, I'm quite certain that no one, and I mean NO ONE in their right mind believes that raping a child is a GOOD thing--not even liberals.

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 8:01 p.m.

    I knew Alpaca wouldn't have the courage to post any back up to their claims.

    Alpaca, you see what you want to see and that is great. I see you as immovable in all of your posts and criticize conservatives regularly. You don't take the high road even though you think you do.

    There is right and wrong in life. You unfortunately don't see it that way. Oh well, you see what you see. And I highly doubt you'll ever change your mind.

    So does that make you better than everyone else? Nope.

    I've argued the points of the issue but you don't like them. I don't care.

    I'm still waiting for you to share your wisdom and knowledge of how Christ is social liberal and your definition of it. You can't even put that out there???? Yes, dialogue...

  • Chris Plummer
    June 30, 2008 7:46 p.m.

    RE Charles: Courts didn't malfunction in CA and Ma, they overturned laws that were UNCONSTITUTIONAL, meaning, they wrote the law in a lazy fashion and it needs to be re-written to be CONSTITUTIONAL.

  • Liberal
    June 30, 2008 7:45 p.m.

    America, a Christian nation has the highest percentage of its population imprisoned for crimes. Why would any other nation look to American Christians for ways to improve their nation?

    As a liberal, I really would like to be civil. If liberals fail to fight, some day there will be conservative's final solution to the "liberal problem." It doesn't take much of an imagination to see conservatives would murder if they believed it was for the betterment of their homeland.

    Read what conservatives feel. Feel the hatred. Only a fool would park his car with California plate around Escalante with a "Save the Earth" bumper sticker. You could get shoot for having a Save the Wolves in Wyoming.

    The hatred is real. Life means little and it has little value to those who believing killing is a solution.

  • Chris Plummer
    June 30, 2008 7:27 p.m.

    RE MIKE:
    Since you have drawn the lines let me clearly say where I'm at.
    rapists: deserve the punishment due, which currently is NOT death.
    abortion: a matter of choice, one which you may or may not regret, but a choice. Pregnancies too far developed should not be aborted.
    Our country is very diverse, which is why freedom of CHOICE seem to work well here. Not every shares yours or my viewpoints, we all have to make the choices we hold ourselves accountable for.

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 7:26 p.m.

    to 7:18pm...I'll agree that I was a little disturbed by the Shiavo thing as well; too many unknowns about that situation.

    However, the rest of your point is a good one. Let's list a couple of items that liberals have used the courts to circumvent the will of the people that was law.

    Roe v Wade - complete circumvention of states and legislatures. SCOTUS "found" some "right" that had never been there before.

    Mass and Cali - courts again manufacture a right that was never there and overturned law and then legislated new law from the bench.

    All of these done in the name of secular religion. I guess it really works both ways when one stops to smell the roses.

    Lastly, you may be religious, but there are very few religious liberals that I know. Most are CEO's. You know, Christmas and Easter Onlys to appease their mothers.

  • AlpacaFamilia
    June 30, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    Where, oh where is Lionheart? We disagree, but can have a civil conversation. Mike and Charles, I salute you. You are immune to any honest effort to have a discussion. You are immovable. I'm sure that you think that is good. Charles. If you review my posts, you will find that I argue a point of view, but don't tend to generalize and demonize those that don't have the good sense to agree with me.

  • Someone you know
    June 30, 2008 7:18 p.m.

    SMFI-Liberals are often religious. They just don't want the government run by the Sanhedrin. Remember how well that worked out? Or the Mullahs? Or the Inquisition? My religious beliefs are mine and yours are yours. The problem occurs when the government is not neutral and tries to assert a particular religious point of view. The Terry Shivo (sp?) case is a particularly good example of the problem. The law was followed at every step and the Republican Congress tried to circumvent these laws for political purposes to try to dispense with the rule of law. That was bad government and it was bad because the government acted not according to the law, but as a willful agent of a religious perspective.

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 7:13 p.m.

    9:53 a.m said it so clearly.

    Now that there are more than eighty posts, the lines are clearly drawn. Those who love the rapist and want to protect him have spoken their piece. Those who want the innocent to be killed have made it known. Those who value every life, except the life of an unborn child or a child who has been raped have told us why.

    Those who love children and unborn babies have also spoken their piece.

    Thank God that our thoughts, our words, and our deeds are being recorded for all eternity.

    Remember the scene where Christ gathered the little children to himself in 3 Nephi chapter 17? Let us read it over and over and over until the worth of a child is written in our hearts. Then, maybe we'll know the difference between vengeance and justice. Then, maybe we'll finally see the worth of a precious child.

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 7:12 p.m.

    Alpaca, I'm sorry your feelings aren't being validated on these boards. I've read your stuff over the past few months I have yet to see one of your posts show any understanding of conservative values. Maybe you have but I haven't seen it.

    You make outrageous statements IMO and I call you and others on them. You don't come back with facts, you come back with your liberal talking points. I find it interesting that liberals tell us conservatives that we have no flexibility in our discussions and unless we move to your point of view we are just Rush/hannity/o'reilly fanatics.

    I'm not surprised that liberals think Christ was a social liberal but until you give your definition of that phrase, one can't agree or disagree. That's ok if you don't want to show off your great and vast knowledge and reading of the subject. I understand; humility goes a long way.

    bethatasitmay, I'll never back down from defending truth and righteousness; whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant to me. Truth is truth.

    The death penalty should be used more often and abortions should be outlawed.

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 7:08 p.m.

    You liberals brought up the sanctity of life issue.

    don't cry because you don't have leg to stand on.

    Justice denied, whether you flap your gums in platitudes about how we should treat each other, is still justice denied.

  • SFMI
    June 30, 2008 7:06 p.m.

    Let me try to get this straight...Liberals constantly don't want America to have even the perception of religion, but say we need to forgive and not execute like it says in the Bible. I am no history buff, but something tells me that executions were done in all societies throughout the world long before Christianity arrived in those areas and long after. So trying to make execution shoulnd't be done just doesn't fit with that reasoning. And since you like to use Christ's words to prove your point, then you need to remember that He said "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's". The death penalty should be used whenever the law is broken for which death is the punishment. Rape of a child does not fit that criteria, but if it did then it should. Personally, I don't think they should see the light of day, no cable TV, no recreation, no music, fed through a slot in the door and the door only opened to remove the dead body inside.

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    Way to go Bill!
    Perhaps YOU can knock some sense into your Limbaugh party brothers and sisters on this Death Penalty subject.
    Oh, that's right. It's now a roe v wade discussion.
    How silly of me.
    Okay then. Perhaps YOU can knock some sense into your neocon bothers and sisters heads.
    :>

  • AlpacaFamilia
    June 30, 2008 6:50 p.m.

    Charles-This isn't the vehicle for such a discussion (Jesus/Liberal)and I suspect that you are not really interested in a discussion. All you have ever done is lift your nose into the air and disparage anyone who would dare have an opinion other than yours. You don't seem to ever engage in a discussion. That you act so surprised is evidence that you are not familiar with the wide body of literature and apologetics that makes this case. You may not agree with it, of course, but it isn't something that can be so casually dismissed....that is if you don't want to appear to be inflexible and closed minded.

  • Bill
    June 30, 2008 6:45 p.m.

    Anonymous | 6:20 p.m -I take great umbrage when you suggest that I, a liberal, do not value life. You dont even have a clue about how much I value life. Where do you get such a nonsensical idea? The great liberal thinkers and writers of the past 100 years have all been known for their focus on the human condition and solutions to the sorrows and ills that plague us as humans. Why in the world would you think that liberals turn their back on victims of violent crime and deny them justice? You have to widen your exposure to information. It sounds like you get it from one source. Remember that though there arent many of us in Utah, liberals are real people with children and families, who love this country and want to make the world a better place. Not that different from you, I suspect.

  • Bill
    June 30, 2008 6:40 p.m.

    I am a social liberal. I am also a returned missionary, active temple recommend holder and a father of five. I am against abortion. I think that it is wrong on many different levels. It is not murder, however. If you are LDS, your leadership will not baptize someone who has committed murder. They will baptize someone who has had an abortion. It happens all the time. Abortion is sanctioned in the case of rape, or insest, or for the health of the mother. Think about that when you argue about the murder of fetuses. It isn't the same thing, as horrible as it is to think about.

  • now what?
    June 30, 2008 6:39 p.m.

    So tell me Charles, since the topic has now unilaterrally morphed from capital punishement into a roe v wade thing (Good idea since Jesus Christ himself would definitely not be in favor of vengeance murders conducted legally)
    what are your plans to get roe v wade overturned?
    Have you contacted Hatch, Leavitt, Bennet, Cannon etc. with your concerns?
    There appears to be some difficulty in getting it overturned. Why do you suppose THAT is?

  • left behind
    June 30, 2008 6:32 p.m.

    So this subject is now about Roe v Wade?
    And we can put the capital punishment to bed?

    Such stupid, stupid, neocons!
    Pulling the wool over their own eyes while the rest of America leaves them in the dust.

  • andrew
    June 30, 2008 6:30 p.m.

    Remember that almost all gun violence is committed by so called Law abiding citizens.Everybody is a law abiding citizen until they break the law. Let's hear it from the outraged gun nuts with nothing constructive going on in their lives. Yee-ha! Bang Bang! too bad not all of you can afford to buy Hummers!

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 6:30 p.m.

    Alpaca, Oh please tell us in what ways Christ was a social liberal. I can't wait to see this one...ready, set GO

    to 5:55....actually conservatives are growing in numbers but that's a different day. I love how you have put words in my mouth but I know that is the liberal way. Christ didn't support the death penalty. Well, my friend, I think you have a different set of scriptures that what I have. Or if we do have the same, maybe you should open yours a little more and read them.

    And yes, the typical liberal using word games to justify the killing of children. That's nice. Do you feel better calling them fetus'? Have you never seen an ultrasound of a child in the womb? I'm sure you will have a wonderful conversation with Christ as you attempt to justify yourself by saying, "It was only a fetus; really it is just a fetus" I'm sure he'll buy that one.

    I'd be happy to show you all the communication I've sent to all political representatives regarding abortion and other issues. Yes, I participate in the process unlike name-calling foolishness that you show daily.

  • what are you waiting for?
    June 30, 2008 6:29 p.m.

    Jesus Christ would not condone legalized vengeance murders.

    Accept this neoncons.

    Now quit wasting time and start contacting your representatives, congressmen, etc. if you are serious about overturning roe v wade.

    Otherwise the rest of America 80-something percent will just view you as Limbaugh buffoons who like to hear themselves talk.

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 6:20 p.m.

    It's funny liberals talk about the sanctity of life,

    while turning their backs to the aborting of millions and millions of babies.

    and turning their back the many many victims of violent crime, and denying them justice.

    If justice will not be done here, it certainly will in the hereafter.

  • all-time favorite
    June 30, 2008 6:14 p.m.

    The way the neocons have been riled up at this subject and insist it's okay to murder somebody if they want to legally (even though Jesus Christ clearly would not have supported capital punishment) reminds me of my all-time favorite scripture story where Jesus bodily threw the hypocrites out of his temple.

  • different upbringing
    June 30, 2008 5:58 p.m.

    Capital punishment is a sore spot with Utahns.
    This is most likely because of the change of attitude (revelation) of blood atonement.
    I cannot relate to this predicament as I myself was raised with the standard Christian notion of reverence for all life. We were taught that only God can take a life.
    Obviously, others were not raised that way.

  • AlpacaFamilia
    June 30, 2008 5:56 p.m.

    Charles-Jesus wasn't just a liberal, he was a radical liberal. In historical context, by today's standards, by any standards, Jesus was a social liberal. Sorry. By the way, what comments can you point to that suggest that liberals "truly don't believe in the victim but in those who commit these heinous crimes?" I have done a quick review and I see no sense that anybody has any sympathy for anyone who hurts children. Punishment is appropriate and necessary. Some of us (including the whole Catholic Church, by the way) believe that killing is innefective as a tool to teach the sanctity of life, that it is irreversable, that mistakes are certainly made, that it is applied differently according to economic and racial backgrounds and that it does harm to our nation's spirit. None of that implies any sense that punishment should not occur. You have made this up, whole cloth.

  • neocons require enemies
    June 30, 2008 5:55 p.m.

    Charles is one of our neoconservatives (dwindling in number)who requires enemies to survive. So angry and mad at the world, when they run out of enemies -they turn on each other. "McCain is not conservative enough" and "So-and-so-is a Baptist", on and on with that sort of childish neocon BS.
    Then they switch from capital punishment (clearly not supported by Jesus Christ) to dead babies and as per usual their perennial long-term enemy is, you guessed it - the liberals who are now responsible for aborted fetuses. Yet they are not interested in contacting people like Hatch, Bennet, Cannon, Reid, Leavitt, etc. to get that pesky Roe v Wade turned around.
    See how they function? Clever group aren't they?

  • RE: NO thanks
    June 30, 2008 5:39 p.m.

    Nice taking scriptures out context.

    read the context you might see they talking about something else.

    for instance "the Judge not" is NOT about judging, but about making yourself an hypocrite.

    Forgiving someone, does NOT imply they should not be punshed for their wrongs.

    He is talking about how the victim should react, NOT what should be done about the perpetrator.

    Justice must be fulfilled.

    Only through repentance, does Jesus suffering for our sins take effect, (NOTE: someone has to pay for the sin one way or the other)

    What is justice for a girl that has been raped over 120 times?

    What is punshment for guy rapes a little girl over 120 times?

    Sitting in a cell with cable tv and all the books he could ever read? Is that punishment? IS that justice?

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 5:29 p.m.

    The comments of the left are indicative of their beliefs. They truly don't believe in the victim but in those who commit these heinous crimes.

    I especially love the people who spout off about Rush Limbaugh as if that is supposed to be an insult of some kind. And as if they actually listen to him; which we know they don't because it would make them vomit, right? Rush has the left pegged dead on everyday and you don't have a clue about it.

    What's truly scary on these pages are those who would want to protect these people and yet show no feelings towards the little children.

    I've read on the homosexual pages of these boards that conservatives aren't supposed to use the Bible for any belief system. Now we have liberals pulling out all stops with their quotes of the Bible. Gotta laugh at that one; a liberal using the Bible for justification.

    Bill, good questions. care to answer them or do you just pose them?

    to no thanks...you can see what you want, but do you also see that it's ok to murder over 1 million babies each year in the name of "choice"? didn't think so....

  • round the bend
    June 30, 2008 5:19 p.m.

    To anon 5:03 -
    Now that is the lamest paraphrasing I've heard yet that's supposed to support Jesus' commanding of capital punishment.
    The neocons have clearly gone round the bend.

  • need more than a paraphase
    June 30, 2008 5:16 p.m.

    Sorry, anonymous 5:03 -
    Show me where Jesus says "put them to death for me" and I'll pay attention. He paraphrased a lot, of course but had too much reverence for all life to command the Old Testament (or Koran) style of vengeance murders.

  • turned the whole thing around
    June 30, 2008 5:13 p.m.


    Always the mean, punitive, throw 'em all into hell Old Testament God is so popular with today's modern American conservative movement.
    If only they might experience the joy, freedom, and the happiness of the New Testament God that forgives, is open, loving, caring.
    Jesus came into being to turn the nasty Old Testament thinking around but the neocons want nothing of that sort of liberal life.

  • Re Anonymous 5:03
    June 30, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    Thats already been said this thread... read.

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 5:03 p.m.

    Jesus quite clearly said , and I paraphrase,

    Anyone who hurts these littles ones it is better that they were dead.

    What more is there to know?

  • no thanks
    June 30, 2008 4:59 p.m.

    Sorry re not in MY scriptures 4:28 -
    I see nothing that supports the right-wing's barbaric philosophy of putting another human being to death for vengeance reasons.
    Meanwhile, I think I'll stick with these words you refuse to read and absorb:

    "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you... whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

    "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

    "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    "Judge not, that you be not judged."

    Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I Will repay," says the Lord."

  • Chris Plummer
    June 30, 2008 5:01 p.m.

    I am personally not worried about a global flood Mike, since I built an ark, and collect two of every animal, all of which are the same sex.

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 4:59 p.m.

    The person in the supreme court case raped an 8 year old Girl over a 120 times over several months.

    And death is not an appropriate punishment?!

    Would death have been worse to this girl?

    IN fact it is too kind and generous.

    The guy should have felt blessed considering what will happen to him in prison.



  • re not in MY scriptures | 4:28 p
    June 30, 2008 4:50 p.m.

    read Mark 7:10 there you will see Jesus agreeing with the law of the death penalty.

  • Guns more Important
    June 30, 2008 4:41 p.m.

    Whats the big deal about giving the death penalty for child rapists? That person will get life in prison anyway? The issue of guns is much more important to me.

  • to: Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 4:37 p.m.

    If the image of a child being raped is stuck in your mind and you can't get it out, perhaps some professional help would be in order for you rather than politically bashing liberals (aka Democrats)and then flipping over to a discussion of abortion that is somehow supposed to support your feelings about capital punishment.
    Too many people today (they call themselves conservatives) are turning to this sort of nasty side of politics and it appears that it is making things worse for them.

  • not in MY scriptures
    June 30, 2008 4:28 p.m.

    I have never found anything in scripture where Jesus supports the violent murder of another human being for vengeful, sociological reasons.

  • You will never go wrong
    June 30, 2008 4:20 p.m.

    Dear BH -
    ALWAYS follow and apply Christ's teachings.
    ALWAYS.
    And try to break away from and cult, political group or splinter group that contradicts Christ's teachings.
    You will never go wrong this way.

  • Mark B
    June 30, 2008 4:19 p.m.

    I know of no rapists being "honored". As for innocent children and the outrage Mile R. thinks we need more of, he must know that every state in the country has added prison space in the last 20 years. He might (but I doubt it) also know that our country has more people in prison than any other country on earth. And nobody in or out of those prisons is "bowing to perverts." Let's skip the hype here. Adults are watching.

  • No deterent?
    June 30, 2008 4:15 p.m.

    If you kill a scum bucket for raping a child I'll GUARANTEE he'll never do it again!
    Can you promise me the same thing if he goes to jail for five years and then gets turned loose by some bleeding heart parole board?

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 4:15 p.m.

    Before we have another world-wide flood that drowns us all, falling from the eyes of those crying for the rapist, let's just visualize in our own minds what actually happens when a child is raped.

    Go ahead. Think about it You don't have to have any imagination to see a little child being raped by a crazed beast who has abandoned all decency as he/she acts out a well studied series of events leading to the utter destruction of an innocent child.

    Think of the magazines, the music, the movies, the fantasies that served as the school for the rapist.

    Talk about pre-meditated!

    Now think about the little child. Save your tears for the children.

  • hold on...
    June 30, 2008 4:11 p.m.

    This is big news arriving today everyone:

    We no longer have to read the Bible: Mike Richards has spoken, and his words have replaced God's.

    He has said that God's words do not apply to us anymore, and he has put his own words in God's place. His judgement has replaced God's.

    I'd say that's big news.

  • transforming the mind
    June 30, 2008 4:09 p.m.

    No BH, what I would suggest is to turn off the Rush Limbaugh Show, go to work on transforming your mind away from aggressive, violent, jingoistic, preemptive war philosophy and focus on this instead:

    "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you... whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

    "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

    "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    "Judge not, that you be not judged."

    Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I Will repay," says the Lord."

    Focus on these words again and again and again.
    It may take some time to feel a sense of peace again but it CAN be done.

  • Bill
    June 30, 2008 4:10 p.m.

    BH, I don't disagree with you, really. But we also need to understand why we are so violent and why we as a nation break laws to such excess. We have imprisoned a higher percentage of our population than any civilization in the history of the world. Americans commit violent crimes at a significantly higher rate than any other develped country. Why is it that we have significantly higher rates of rape, murder, armed robery, domestic violence, racial violence, and violence against children than any other nation. Why is that? It can't be the nutty liberal left, all of those industrialized countries have far more liberal governments and societies than ours. Why does the land of the free and the home of the brave create such monsters?

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 4:06 p.m.

    Yes correct interpretation of the scriptures will help us reason out this modern dilema.

  • what the ...?
    June 30, 2008 4:05 p.m.

    "a nation that has clapped and cheered as 48,000,000 innocent babies were slaughtered in the womb"...?
    This poor sap simply cannot drag himself away from the Rush Limbaugh Show and this sort of wacko postings reveal that instead of breaking his medication in half he would be better off taking the WHOLE thing.

  • AlpacaFamilia
    June 30, 2008 4:01 p.m.

    Mike Richards-
    I am so sorry that you profess the beliefs that you do. You have created an evil, bent, malintended monster and you call them "liberals." But that reality is in your own mind and not anywhere in form. Before anybody objects, I know that the left can be just as destructive in stereotypes of the right. But Mike, if you think that liberals try and "protect perverts" and suggest that the "innocent should be defiled" you really need some help. Every single liberal I know, without exception feels the pain of victims at least as deeply as any conservative I have met. Is it beyond you to see an honest differennce of opinion? How dare you suggest that because someone doesn't believe that Capital Punishment is appropriate they have "no concern for the innocent child" that they "welcome child rape" and that the "bow before pervers and child rapists." You have no decency in you, it seems. You do not seem to have any sense of charity or compassion in you. The very way that you speak about me (a liberal)is without a trace of Christian love, or respect.

  • BH
    June 30, 2008 4:00 p.m.

    Re: Seems clear to me @11:09:

    If we follow your recommendation and apply Christ's teachings to the law of the land in regards to capital punishment, should we not apply the words of Christ to all law enforcement?

    Are you suggesting a society without punishment or judgement of any kind for any crime? If we read the New Testament as a whole, instead of a few select passages, it would be clear that is not the intent. There must be laws. There must be those called as judges. There must be punisments that are compensurate to the crime.

    Until our society as a whole is ready to live a better way, we must have a means to protect the society.

  • Pure violence
    June 30, 2008 3:50 p.m.

    The death penalty is pure violence, a barbaric and useless violence. Dangerous even, because it can only lead to other acts of violence--as all violence does. The supreme punishment ought to be a life sentence, and one without brutality.
    Once again, Jesus Christ new exactly what he was talking about with "turn the other cheek."

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 3:38 p.m.

    Look at this thread and count how many are chanting: "Give us Barabbas!".

    The liberal left will stop at nothing when trying to establish a new low in societal evolution. They will stop at nothing as they protect the perverts and the lawless while they claim that the innocent should be defiled and destroyed to further their cause.

    Where is the concern for the innocent child? Where is the respect for virtue? Where is the outrage against an adult who rapes a child? What kind of society welcomes child rape? What kind of sick society triumphs "justice" as it bows before perverts and child rapists, as it excuses their conduct and grants them hospitality in its midst?

    God help us when we honor a rapist; but, what should be expected from a nation that has clapped and cheered as 48,000,000 innocent babies were slaughtered in the womb?


  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 3:27 p.m.

    The death penalty isnt a deterrent because criminals dont think they will be caught. No rapist (child of otherwise) considers the possible punishments before committing rape. They are rapists, you cant apply your thought processes to their insane thinking.

  • a dangerous lot
    June 30, 2008 3:21 p.m.

    The modern American conservative movement has become so calloused by their jingoism and political partisanship they have lost respect for all life.
    These are a dangerous people in our society.

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 3:20 p.m.

    Chris,

    The violins play such sad songs.

    You can't have it both ways. God has put the responsibility on keeping an ordered society on us, His children. He, just like any responsible Father, is not going to continually fix the problems that we can fix ourselves. He, just like any just and noble person, expects us to take responsibility for throwing out the trash. He will give final judgment to those whom He chooses, but to us is left the responsibility to establish and keep a clean house, a clean society, a clean neighborhood.

    We do not have to settle for perversion in our midst. We do not have to offer our children and our grandchildren as sacrifices on the alter of liberal society's desire to create a cesspool in our midst.

  • nothing anybody can do
    June 30, 2008 3:21 p.m.

    What would you expect from that group of people that supports preemptive destruction of innocent mothers and their children in the shock-and-aweing of Iraq?
    To support their political base, they even turn a deaf ear to the words of the ultimate peacekeeper Jesus Christ.
    I sometimes wish there was something I might do return to the teachings of The Prince of Peace but they would rather get instructions from Rush Limbaugh.

  • should get a medal
    June 30, 2008 3:14 p.m.

    Mike Richards once again wants us to forget about the Old Testament's eye-for-an-eye philosophy (same as the Muslims) that supports the nasty death penalty, AND the fact that Jesus Christ appeared in history and turned that whole barbaric idea around with: "if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"
    and now wants us to look at killing another human being in revenge as nothing more than pulling weeds.
    You are a true hero in the eyes of your fellow neocons, Mike Richards. You receive a medal from Rush Limbaugh personally.

  • Chris Plummer
    June 30, 2008 3:08 p.m.

    Re Mike Richards... sounds like GOD has a plan for punishing those when they face judgment. Certainly that verse in Matthew doesn't say to DROWN those, it says it were better if they had drowned.
    Our current system imprisons those who commit heinous crime against children.
    I personally wouldn't want to live next door to someone who executes child molesters anymore than I would like to live next door to a molester.

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 2:56 p.m.

    Let's get past the name calling and the Old Testament diatribes. Look at Matthew 18:6, where it says:

    "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

    Drowning someone in the depth of the sea might be called cruel and unusual punishment, but that was pronounced by the Prince of Peace. Christ had no respect for child molesters.

    Most of us have gardens. We don't let the weeds dictate our gardening practices. We don't leave the weeds to see if they change into something beneficial to our gardens. We know weeds. We know that weeds, if left unchecked, will destroy our gardens.

    As a society, we should know weeds. We should be willing to rip those weeds from our midst and thrown them away before our society is destroyed.

    Too many liberals have decided that weeds are an important part of life, that we should nurture them, that we should enable them, just to see what they will do.

    It doesn't work in the garden. It won't work in society.

  • sweetheart of a group
    June 30, 2008 2:38 p.m.

    It's a well-know fact that conservatives follow the very same Old Testament, eye-for-an ideology that just happens to be a mirror image of Muslim ideology.
    Conservatives think nothing of torturing prisoners, shock-and-aweing civilians and calling this collateral damage, and actively promoting the death penalty (even though Christ respected all life and taught us differently).
    A real sweetheart of a group aren't they?

  • neocons make it easy
    June 30, 2008 2:26 p.m.

    I see things have gotten so dark and dismal for the conservative Limbaugh crowd they are back to their same old tricks trying to convince themselves that liberals (aka Democrats) are working overtime trying to get people to turn gay and get married, and now those same liberals (aka Democrats) want to murder babies.
    And we've got FIVE MORE MONTHS to go before the general election!
    Keep posting more of your wacky postings, Neocons.
    You're making it easier and easier for mainstream America to drift left.

  • thatthatguy
    June 30, 2008 2:27 p.m.

    A couple people mentioned "an eye for an eye" as being Biblical. For the sake of clarity I think I should point out that it is from the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi.

    Basically it was the first example of a legal system where the punishment fit the crime. Before then you just got arbitrary death penalties for everything. Of course, considering that the Bible says Babylon was bad, some must think that balanced punishments are bad and we should go back to killing everyone. I swear, some people never read past Leviticus...

    Personally, I think rape is not the same as murder and shouldn't be punishable by death. Cheers to the supreme court.

  • Lewt
    June 30, 2008 2:22 p.m.

    I guess Mike R. feels his words are more believable if followed by an exclamation point. Other than that, his posts are full of "I believe" and "anyone can see" or "only an idiot would..." It's like getting a finger shaken at you all day with the shaker unaware of even the possibility of being wrong. It gets old, man. You need to be aware that rational people can disagree.

  • Chris Plummer
    June 30, 2008 2:19 p.m.

    Mike Richards, no one is advocating to "save the rapist" the death penalty is no a penalty for raping, and thats a good thing. I for one would not like to be a part of a society that kills people for reasons other than murder. Sounds like you want to take us back to Old Testament times, let me guess... your favorite book?

  • JenM
    June 30, 2008 2:06 p.m.

    To Charles,
    My apologies for misunderstanding your statement, but it was certainly inferred:
    "Liberals cut, rip, poke, suck, tear life out of over 1 million babies every year and call it choice." I am certain that a good number of those woman who are faced with such a painful choice (I am not a fan of abortion by the way, and have never met one) are in fact people who would not be considered a liberal. That was simply my point.

  • poor black-and-whiters
    June 30, 2008 2:04 p.m.

    Poor black-and-white conservatives!
    Neocons like Mike Richards simply must black-and-white everything before it makes sense to them.
    To this deluded politically-motivated type (aka neocons)to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ:
    Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not avenge yourselves," is likened to "destroying the victim."
    It would take a battery of theologians, psychiatrists and social scientists working night and day to come up with just what motivates this pathetic group of people.

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 1:24 p.m.

    Save the rapist! Save the rapist! Save the rapist!

    He has such outstanding value to our community.

    Destroy the victim! Destroy the victim! Destroy the victim!

    He/she should have known that we had a rapist in our midst.

    Liberal views give such enlightenment. What would we ever do without Liberals to tell us how to think?

  • Bill
    June 30, 2008 1:07 p.m.

    Charles- AlpacaFamilia said "Sometimes I think that people who right responses here haven't actually ever sat down and spoken with a real "liberal." Oh there are certainly loud extremists that get press because they shout the loudest. But they are like the Limbaugh's and Hannity's of the wacky conservative wing, all sound and furey, signifying nothing." The implication was that he was talking about "liberal" loud extremists. Not rose colored glasses, just the ability to see clearly. I still say that it was taking a swipe at the extremists in both factions. You on the other hand...

  • like to switch the subject
    June 30, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    I get a kick out of conservatives when backed into the corner on a subject, ie., Death penalty, how clever they think they are to suddenly change the subject into ... voila! Now we are discussing partial-birth abortions (see Charles 12:48).
    I swear the neocons think everything is a partial-segment of The Rush Limbaugh Show.
    And this is the main reason their nasty ways are decreasing in number daily. (Except in Utah where Limbaugh is their neocon god.

  • Christian Nation :-)
    June 30, 2008 1:02 p.m.

    Has anyone here know someone who has gotten off earth alive? We all die. Knowing this fact, why cut a pentalty short?

    Conservatives think only three things the government can do right, torture prisoners, figh wars and muder people.

    We look at Taxas where many prisoners on death row have been exonerated by DNA. We know the system has flaws.

    Christ did capital punishment. Do you glean anything from his story. The death pentaly was used by a corupt power structure to rid its self of their questioner. They murdered the messinger.

    The lessons is people are imperfect. We should not play god with lives. Let god do his job.

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 12:48 p.m.

    Bill said that Alpaca said, "I thought that the point he made was evenhanded and informational. He expressed his view and didn't really make any partisan digs, other than to say that both sides had extremists that often don't represent the positions of most people in that group."

    Another review of Alpaca's comments doesn't show anything Bill says. Here are Alpaca's comments,

    "Oh there are certainly loud extremists that get press because they shout the loudest. But they are like the Limbaugh's and Hannity's of the wacky conservative wing, all sound and furey[sic], signifying nothing."

    Yep, sounds even handed and included both sides. I guess Bill has rose-colored glasses on and must be listening to Air America and their truth telling anchors....or are they off the air yet because they are morally and financially bankrupt?

    Get a clue...

    JenM...never said what you claim but your point stands to reason doesn't it? Those who think "choice" is in the Constitution but murdering an innocent life doesn't merit consideration or pause. Abortion, killing of innocent life, is the worst stain on our society.

    Ever seen a picture of partial-birth abortion? There is no medical reason to save the mother either!

  • How two conservatives see it
    June 30, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    While campaigning for the presidency, George W. Bush was interviewed by Bill OReilly. OReilly pointed out that Bush had named Jesus Christ as his model political philosopher and suggested that this might be a contradiction with Bushs own support of the death penalty. Bush replied, I cant justify the death penalty in terms of the New Testament. Im going to justify it in terms of the law (from No Spin Zone by Bill OReilly, p. 102). OReilly then stated, I dont believe he [Jesus] would be embracing the death penalty if he were here today. Bush: We can both agree on this.

    In the same chapter of his book (v.104), OReilly states: As for the death penalty, with all due respect to the president, you dont have to put words into Jesus mouth to infer what he might have thought on the subject. Most theologians believe he considered all life sacred and, thus, would most likely oppose the death penalty.

  • To Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 12:35 p.m.

    I'm afraid that having the death penalty for raping a child could possibly encourage more rapists to also kill their victims--"I mean why not if I'm going to die anyway." But if they leave their victim alive they might simply get jail time. Which thought do you want doing through the rapists mind if he has just raped your child?

    Of course no one ever condones raping a child, but wouldn't you rather have your child raped and alive than raped and dead?

  • No thanks.
    June 30, 2008 12:35 p.m.

    Mike Richards tells us:
    "Some crimes cannot be forgiven."

    Jesus tells us:
    "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    Thanks, but I think I'll focus on what liberal Jesus taught rather than what conservative Richards is trying to feed us.

  • Mike Richards
    June 30, 2008 12:17 p.m.

    Other than death, what could happen to a child that would be worse than rape? What kind of adult would rape a child? What kind of society approves the rape of a child?

    When there is proof positive that a child has been raped, when there is proof positive that the rapist is known, when there is proof positive that no mistake has been made, then execute the rapist.

    Nothing can restore the innocence of that child. Nothing on earth can redeem the rapist. Society has the right to send home a criminal who has forfeited his right to live.

    Some crimes cannot be forgiven. To expect a child to grow into an adult, knowing that his rapist is enjoying life, even in a prison, is cruel and unusual punishment to that victim.

    Why does society think that it is so essential to protect the rapist? He has already proven who he is. It's time to let justice take its place in society.

  • Chris Plummer
    June 30, 2008 12:13 p.m.

    Killing someone = possible death penalty. If you don't kill someone you don't' deserve to die. Life in prison is pretty harsh, so is 15 years, so is 5.

  • Seems clear to me
    June 30, 2008 11:09 a.m.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you... whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

    "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first."

    "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

    "Judge not, that you be not judged."

    Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I Will repay," says the Lord."

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 10:58 a.m.

    The Old Testament god gave mankind: "An eye for and eye." (this is also the same philosophy of Muslims)
    Jesus Christ came along and changed all that in The New Testament. He taught reverence for all life. (As Buddha did).
    Why do so many so-called conservatative "Christians" choose The Old Testament before the New Testament in todays politically-charged world?

  • Mark B
    June 30, 2008 10:47 a.m.

    Executing a human being is a pretty drastic thing for society to do. It follows that there should be some great good that comes from this practice, or else it should be discontinued altogether. It isn't cheap, owing to all the legal costs associated with the practice, and it hasn't been shown to be a deterrent to new crimes. If it was, Texas would be our most peaceful state, which it isn't.

    So, no savings, and no deterrent. What's the payoff? A momentary satisfaction that - - will never kill again. Since we can pretty much guarantee that already with "life without parole", I must conclude that executions just are not worth it. Most of the western democracies now agree. A true believer would know that, in the long run, there is no "getting away" with murder or anything else.

  • Re: Right... at 8:37 a.m.
    June 30, 2008 10:47 a.m.

    "If you put a tooth under your pillow, a fairy gives you a quarter for it"

    Where have you been. The tooth fairy gives at least one dollar for every tooth these days or you have a very unhappy child on your hands.

    Get with the program!

  • Anonymous
    June 30, 2008 10:41 a.m.

    The death penalty does not deter crime. As opposed to life in prison, it costs more in taxpayer dollars to defend someone on death row- and finally get them killed. Support of the death penalty is obviously based on revenge- not reason.

  • Gus Talwynd
    June 30, 2008 10:38 a.m.

    The death penalty is simply to put people to death. It doesn't function as a deterrent as these crimes would be committed anyway. The criminal committing the act only thinks about the death penalty after.

    Also, there have been a number of convicted individuals sitting on death row who were later found to be innocent of the crime committed. This is why several states suspended carrying out the death penalty until all those on death row had every opportunity to get a fair trial. Many times there is a rush to judgement and justice gets abused.

    Finally, death penalty cases get to be very expensive, particularly during the appeals process. Some have advocated life without possibility of parole as a less expensive process. Life in prison is quite severe punishment.

  • JenM
    June 30, 2008 10:36 a.m.

    To Charles:
    Just wondering where exactly you got your info that liberals have more abortions than conservatives. I guess I wasn't aware that before you sign up for an abortion you fill out a form about your political leanings.

  • a twisted lot
    June 30, 2008 10:18 a.m.

    I know of no mother who demands to "cut, rip, poke, suck, tear the life out of over 1 million babies."
    NOT ONE.
    But this is what the sick-minded conservatives focus on day after day.
    Is it any wonder the world views this splinter group of counterrevolutionaries as a twisted and demented lot?

  • Bill
    June 30, 2008 10:16 a.m.

    Wow. I am surprised how quickly the jackals have descended on poor old Alpaca. I thought that the point he made was evenhanded and informational. He expressed his view and didn't really make any partisan digs, other than to say that both sides had extremists that often don't represent the positions of most people in that group. And then we have all of the angry aggressive folks like Charles and Nasty? who change the subject and then make it a personal attack filled with vitriol and disregard. Alpaca made the mistake of mentioning two of the demi-gods of the neo-cons, though in all fairness Charles, he did indicate an equal problem with extreemists on the liberal side. Read Alpaca's missive and then read Charles'. One of them sounds like a rabid extremist. One of them doesn't.

  • hold on...
    June 30, 2008 9:54 a.m.

    This isn't really a weakening of anything. The death penalty hasn't been used for anything other than murder for something like 40 years. There are two cases open now, hence the SC decision. By it seems the SC was merely upholding the national view on this. No one had done it for 40 years, despite deplorable crimes taking place everywhere, all that time. Why the push for the death penalty now?

  • Nasty?
    June 30, 2008 9:53 a.m.

    Conservatives want the death penalty for criminals (specifically murderers and child rapists).

    Liberals want the death penalty for unborn babies who have done nothing wrong except be carried by a mother who doesn't want them.

    So remind me: Which group is "a nasty people"?

  • Oh Please
    June 30, 2008 9:39 a.m.

    Problem with death penalty is that it allows for no human error on the part of judges and juries. At least 10 percent of the time they get it wrong. If they're guilty, sock 'em away forever. That's worse anyway.

  • redsox's
    June 30, 2008 9:33 a.m.

    i think the death penalty is a great thing but we make it way to quick and ez i think they should lock some 1 flat on the table take a hammer bash his knee caps in half than have that person lay there for 12 hours in pain than put a gun to there head make em beg for there life like they did the helpless victim and than end there life

  • Charles
    June 30, 2008 9:34 a.m.

    The death penalty isn't a deterrent because it doesn't happen soon enough. The "alleged" yada yada yada.... It is correct that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. When they are found guilty (except OJ) and the punishment is death, then the appeals need to be expedited and if still found guilty then carry out the sentence.

    Alapaca's have problems with Rush and Sean? Well, the list is endless of the Air America types that you favor in your liberal land. But you call them mainstream and center aisle. I'm sure you don't even listen to Rush because you don't like how he says exactly who you are as a liberal. You don't hear it anywhere else so when you actually hear your stances by someone else, it makes you cringe so you try to shoot the messenger. His message on liberals and their beliefs is right on target.

    As for conservatives being nasty for approving of the death penalty, at least with punish people for their horrible actions.

    Liberals cut, rip, poke, suck, tear the life out of over 1 million babies every year and call it choice.

    Who's being nasty? Ever see a picture of partial-birth-abortion?

  • more than nasty
    June 30, 2008 8:39 a.m.

    The conservative Supreme Court didn't see Murder for Rape as eye-for-an-eye. They saw it as overly punative, and rightly corrected Lousiana's blood lust.

  • Right...
    June 30, 2008 8:37 a.m.

    The death penalty is a deterant to crime.
    Iraq has WMD's.
    If you put a tooth under your pillow, a fairy gives you a quarter for it.

  • Who's Nasty?
    June 30, 2008 8:21 a.m.

    How about the criminals?

  • AlpacaFamilia
    June 30, 2008 7:55 a.m.

    Sometimes I think that people who right responses here haven't actually ever sat down and spoken with a real "liberal." Oh there are certainly loud extremists that get press because they shout the loudest. But they are like the Limbaugh's and Hannity's of the wacky conservative wing, all sound and furey, signifying nothing. I oppose the death penalty because it is barbaric and because it is irreversable. It can't account for mistakes that we know happen in the justice system. It is also demonstrably and objectively applied differently depending on how rich and on what race the offender is. That is not to say that I don't think that these criminals should be punished. Life imprisonment is a viable humane and for those of you who care, cost effective way to deal with our worst offenders. Liberals (at least this one) don't oppose appropriate punishment, they often oppose irreversable and extreme punishment.

  • a nasty people
    June 30, 2008 6:58 a.m.

    Leave it to conservatives to want to always put people to death with their Old Testament "eye-for-an-eye" brutality.
    Conservatives are without a doubt the nastiest people on God's earth.

  • Gary Moore
    June 30, 2008 6:37 a.m.

    This does not represent a softening of the penalty. The prolonged suffering of a long stretch in prison is a more severe punishment than a quick, easy death.

  • Accountability
    June 30, 2008 5:47 a.m.

    The real reason crime is rampant in America is that criminals are not held accountable for their actions. Our papers are full of stories of repeat offenders becoming more aggressive. These people should be in jail, not on the streets.
    The death penalty guarantees there will be no repeat of the offense and helps reduce prison overcrowding.
    Some people should not be allowed to EVER return to society.