I think locking someone up forever is a good price to pay for their misdeeds.
I Gave an example: cleansing the temple. NOT the actions a
pacifist.what more do you need?He came to deliver the
his gospel, setup his church, be an example, suffer for or sins so we could
repent and gain forgiveness, and die and be resurrected to break the bonds of
death for all of us.His MORTAL mission wasn't about fighting wars
and punishing the wicked.So there is no record of it during his
mortal life.But there are plenty of statements from Jesus and his
apostles in the New testment about Justice, and that Justice must be met. Must
be satisfied.In person or by proxy (hence his suffering for our
sins)But someone must pay the price.
Jesus came as the shepard, to guide and direct, and was much of the time very
much a pacifist by his actions. He did say he would return as the lion
however.The conservative posts here would do better actually giving
examples from the bible like the liberals are doing instead of just vaguely
saying Jesus wasn't a pacifist.ie: The chapter in Matt. 7:1 "Judge
not lest ye be judged" goes on to say and explain the statement and command
saying something like you will be judged by the standards you judge others. So
if you are harboring secret desires for sex with children, condeming someone
else who does or practices will cause you to be judged in the same fashion. It
is a passage telling you not to be a hypocrite.
The title of this article is obvious: "Death Penalty has purpose" -- yeah, the
purpose of the death penalty is to KILL SOMEONE! Duh!If it is ever
justified to kill another human being, then we enter into an endless debate over
what conditions justify killing.Self-defense? Not so fast. Islamic
terrorists believe that Western culture is destroying their religion and way of
life--destroying their lives. Hence, they kill in "self-defense".Some civil rights leaders in America argued very persuasively that the white
establishment was killing black communities with crime, poverty, and racism.
They responded with violence and killing.Justifying killing opens a
Pandora's box that can never be closed. The only humane, sane, intelligent
position to take is to forbid killing for any reason. Yes, there will be
sociopaths and criminals who will kill. But killing them in return will not
bring back their victims, and will only open that Pandora's box even wider.
There are always other ways to accomplish humane objectives without killing.
Always. We have found many and need to find more.
You are right, Jesus was not a pacifist. That is why when Peter drew his sword
and cut off Malchus' ear, Jesus joined in and they defeated the army sent to
take him away. That is why Jesus organized a large army and defeated the Romans,
freeing the Jews from their bondage. That is why there really was no crucifixion
and no resurrection. Jesus was actually a great and mighty warrior and political
leader who established the Mormon Church that (must have) secretly survived for
two thousand years in the Salt Lake Valley.Did I get a few details
wrong? Oh, I'm sorry. But I'm sure I'm as close as many of the war-mongers
commenting on this site!
You may want to read the red words of your New Testament since Jesus was NOT the
pacifist you believe Him to be.
Rape is murder of the soul. I know.
The death penalty is definitely a deterrent to crime. The person put to death
will most certainly be deterred from any additional criminal activities. That
person will also not be able to breed and pass on violent genetic tendencies.As for Jesus being a pacifist, why then did he say he would come with a
sword? Was He planning on using that sword for spreading butter?
My God is NOT the barbaric Old Testament God who punishes people and throws them
into hell for their transgressions (because He 'loves' them).The son of
God appeared on the scene to change that old-fashioned negative way of thinking.
He preached again and again forgiveness and turning the other cheek. Those who
insist on worshipping the Old Testament God are projecting their personal
negatively and useless and destructive behavior on the rest of the world (and
country) that now espouses preemptive mass destruction of civilians, torture and
never-ending war.No thank you. I will always choose the kind words of
Jesus Christ on this subject.
I don't think justice and mercy have to be mutually exclusive. Why is
retribution so important to people?
To reiterate, everything you are accusing the liberals of, the conservatives are
just as guilty of, really more so since they condemn freedom of speech and push
legislation through congress removing civil rights. Grandma has now been
stripped search on 3 seperate flights...she is 69 and can barely walk.
Not all punishment is about the victim sometimes it is about the crime.Because as I tried to say some crimes can not be undone.But
justice must still be meted out.So what is justice for s murder?What is justice for s raped?IS Justice for the rape of an
adult the same as the rape of a little child?With our limited
ability to apply justice, and the continuing limiting and narrowing of
punishment, is it any wonder no one feels they get any justice anymore?There is no joy or pleasure in punishing someone, nor should there be.But it is an unpleasant task us adults must do.
Both parties are equally guilty of these type of things. Just as a child
molestor can call himself a christian a hypocrite can call themselves a
republican or a democrat. Both parties are full of corruption. Just look at
all the litigation, bribery and criminal suits being filed and fought against
political lawyers and politicions at the moment.ATM if you really
want a verdict you bribe the judge, you do know thats what happened with big
YOur definition of liberal promotes tolerance understanding openmindedness.IS that why they condemnd The VP for speaking at a collegeOr
condemn any conservative from speaking at a institution of higher learning.Or roit and stop a minutemnan from speaking at a college.While applauding the president of Iran.Or attacking
conservatives voices any time they can.= and wanting then removed from the
airwaves an tv.While wallowing in liberal hatered for anyone that
disagrees with them.Mocking and ridiculing and name-calling anyone
disagrees with gays.Mocking and rideculing the institution of
religion and marriage.Maocking ands ridiculing name-calling anyone
with moral vaules?Is having hate for anyone go along with you whilke using every ngative adjective to descibe conservativesis that promoting tolerance or open mindedness.We can have
different views of what is Justice.Without putting the other side
down, then claiming the high horse. while you are in ifact acting no different
that what you claim in the others.
Everyone here seems to know God almost personally. I don't claim to know or
understand him for then I would be him.He is merciful and vengeful,
fearsome and merciful, he seems to contradict himself nonstop, but like I said
how can I know the mind of God, all I can do is follow his teachings and both
fear and love him.
Jesus Christ was definately a pacifist.Something about him coming as
the sheperd and returning as the lion. So I would guess Jesus WILL
be anything but a pacifist.Notice the past and future tenses?
During the Civil War Republicans were primarily centered in the north in urban
cities while the Democrats were more southern thinking and more prominent in
rural areas.Seems the two parties have switched places somewhere
along the line, I wonder why that is. Sounds like alot of people lost faith and
that grass was greener.
Liberal: someone who promotes tolerance, understanding and open minded views to
promote a better lifestyle and moralsConservative: someone who
promotes recession, oppression, repression and force to force a better lifestyle
and moralsI like balance, I guess I am an independentForce is
needed at times, so is tolerenceFor instance, Pearl Harbor got
bombed, we responded, an act I would see as acceptable forceJust as
I in no way support the kidnapping of the RLDS children from their mothers
whatever your views of them may be I cannot see how putting them in crackhead
project foster homes is a better environment then they are currently in even if
the women are oppressed, for in one the child will have a good deal of morals,
if slightly twisted from mainstream, but in the other the child has a 90% of
being a criminal and as mike would put it, a weed
To RE: good luck...You've said, "The victim gets nothing from
someone sitting in jail cell." Just curious, but what does the victim get from
someone being put to death?I think it was Gandhi who said, "an eye
for an eye just leaves the world blind."
Christ was NOT the ultiamte pacifist.Did he not violently remove the
money changers from th etemple?You clearly do not know Christ.AS he said they draw near me with their lips, but hearts are far from
him.You seemed to be hung up on blood atonement.But
ignore Justice.You take a life, you take something you can never
give back.But in your twisted fantasy world, sitting in s cell for
30 years, somehow makes it all equal again.In the historical eyes of
justice, Justice was meted out when payment for the crime was equal or usually
greater than ( for punitive reasons) the crime or what was taken.One
can easily payback a stolen loaf a bread.How do you payback an
intentionally stolen life?The victim gets nothing from someone
sitting in jail cell.When you understand the true concept of
Justice,You may begin to understand what is required.
Jesus Christ was/is the ultimate pacifist. And his teachings on this subject and
reverence for all life are well-documented.But sadly, there areSTILL some
twisted individuals who have been force-fed the ugly principle of blood
atonement since day one.Not much hope for reaching nirvana for these types
I'm afraid. Not it THIS lifetime anyway.Better luck in the next one.
Anonymous,I would be happy to if there was enough space -- on this
comment section and in your mental capacity.More to the point are
Buddhist notions relevant to capital punishment. Some "enlightened
ones" in the Buddhist tradition have insisted on being complete pacifists:"Aware of the suffering caused by the destruction of life, I vow to
cultivate compassion and learn ways to protect lives of people, animals, plants,
and minerals. I am determined not to kill, not to let others kill, and not to
condone any killing in the world, in my thinking, and in my way of life. --Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh.Also:"Everyone fears punishment;
everyone fears death, just as you do. Therefore do not kill or cause to kill.
Everyone fears punishment; everyone loves life, as you do. Therefore do not kill
or cause to kill."The Avatamsaka-sutra (also known as the
Buddhavatamsaka-sutra), by contrast, is considered by many Buddhists to be a
justification for the deterrent function of capital (and other kinds of)
punishment.The point, however, is that Buddhist opposition to or
support of capital punishment is not necessarily (or even exclusively) based on
the idea of Karma (good or bad).
Why not tell my all you know about Christianity and Buddhism - Bob O?
Anonymous obviously knows nothing about Christianity NOR Buddhism.Generic descriptions of people as "enlightened beings" is something to which
Western Philosophy laid claim long before you could define "Buddhism" or give it
an identity as a movement. Your nebulous word games do not create a religion nor
a philosophy, especially by someone so poor at it as yourself.Buddhism has a history of capital punishment, as does Christianity. Your
ambiguous, eclectic, self-defined "budism" and its twisted and diluted law of
"karma" are little better than scraps from "The Secret" and are popular
nonsense, not philosophy. Go back to school, my friend, and quit wasting
people's time with your bubble-gum, Guitar-Hero trivialities.
Bob O. obviously knows nothing about the fastest-growing philosophy in the world
- Buddhism.The word "buddha" means "an enlightened being."Jesus Christ with his transforming the ugly eye-for-an eye Old Testament
philosophy to a turn the other cheek New Testament one is but one small example.
No wonder people think Utahns and Mormons are not Christian.Jesus
was a Buddha? Nonsense. Maybe from a Buddhist perspective, but a Buddhist
interpretation of Christianity is NOT CHRISTIANITY!No, what I said
was not harsh. It was the truth. Mixing up religious ideas to form your own
eclectic belief system is abominable. It is not true to Christianity nor to
Buddhism. It dilutes and distorts both. It has no business being used for
anything but personal entertainment, like fortune cookies and horoscopes.
Bob O thinks religion (I'm assuming he means the words of Jesus Christ v capital
punishment)should be in the trash heap.A pure wonder these
conservatives are - aren't they?
No, Bob O. -Real Christians most certainly DO believe in the law of Karma,
what goes around, comes around, etc.In fact, Jesus Christ was a buddha
(supremely enlightened one)and in MAINSTREAM Christianity death penalty is an
abomination.If you are locked on to the barbaric Old Testament, blood
atonement monstrosity - that is YOUR problem.
To Bob O.Don't you think what you just said to Karma was rather
harsh and uncalled for? I'm sure you can be much kinder if you really try.
To Karma,Christians do not believe in Karma. "Vengence is mine,
saith the Lord" is a quote from the Bible and is a Christian concept.Keep your ad hoc, religious eclecticism where it belongs: in fortune cookies
and in the trash heap.
When a person is a rabid advocate of putting people to death for vengeful
reasons, they run a precarious path to the very real possibility of the same
thing happening to them.This is the universal law of karma.Revenge is MINE, says the Lord.
This is all so ridiculous. Just because I don't believe in the death penalty
doesn't make me a liberal, nor does it make me soft on crime. I just happen to
think there are more appropriate punishments that can possibly lead to reform.
I'd hate to be responsible for taking away someone's right to change. Even
worse, to execute an innocent man. How do I justify that to God? I know the
odds are slim, but not impossible. It's not up to me to decide when someone's
mortal probation will end. But I can put them away in the meantime to protect
society.And why does this always have to turn to abortion? I also
support legalized abortion, and that also does not make me a liberal. It has to
be legal otherwise what would the mother do if her life were in danger? That
doesn't mean I support people using it to erase bad choices, but those are the
consequences. And to all of those who are truly against it in all forms, would
you be willing to adopt all these unwanted children if they were not aborted?
What would we do with them? Stick them in Romanian-style orphanages?
Just follow the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ on forgiveness v capital
punishment and all will be well with you.You cannot just merely provide
lip-service in this case.Trust me.
Some of you seem so intent on vengeance. Do you want all rapists to be publicly
caned or be-headed? You don't think being locked in a tiny cell of a prison for
30 years is punishment? Well, just bring out the water-boards, and let the
To L.G. | 7:12 p.m.Thank you for the empathy. But to be honest, I
have not believed in God for many years now, probably because of what I have
been through. There was nobody there. Nobody put a stop to it. Nobody helped me.
I was and continue to be completely alone. I get no comfort from promises that
he will get justice in some afterlife because I don't believe in one. I continue
to attend Church just to be with a few friends I have, but I get nothing out of
it. except sometimes I get angry because I hear people give talks and lessons
that really make me mad!But thanks for trying to understand. I know
it sounds cruel, but I still think there should be some sort of torture for
child rapists so they can suffer at least in some small sense the way they make
their victims suffer.
YOu are very good ayapping on about forgiveness.Anyone can quote
scripture without any understanding and ignoring context at all.Are
you suggesting we use the bible as part of our jurisprudence?But
anyways the bad guys and the evil doers still must be judged and punished.Why don't give us your enlighten theories on how we should punish
people.I fail to see how putting someone in cell with cable tv and
all books they can read and bed to rest much as they want as punishment or
justice for the victim.Whether it is 30 days or 30 years.Clearly your brainless quoting of scripture while ignoring others show you
have no compassion for the victims or have any desire for them to get
justice.The same Jesus you love to quote violently cleansed the
money changers from the temple. PLease reconcile this.I still can't
find one actual example of jesus forgiving anyone. he didn't forgive the
prositute he just said he doesn't condemn her, he "asked" for forgiveness for
his executioners but he didn't personally forgive anyone.NOT ONE
EXAMPLE.You only have a few words in a model for prayer which you
mindlessly repeatedly quote.
What an absolutely horrible thing to have endured. So sad that your family
refused to recognize and believe you, and that they are still blaming you. I
can't help but wonder if their criticism and blame would be even worse if he
had been given the death penalty. I don't know if you would feel
better about your own life if he had been killed, or not, but I do know that
eventually EVERYONE gets the death penalty. No one makes it out of this world
alive, and then, he will have to face the one judge who really matters, the only
one who knows all the real reasons and circumstances of what actually happened.
Justice delayed is NOT justice denied.
It's common knowledge that the FLDS people are still hung up on the blood
atonement thing - but I am shocked at the number of LDS who are having a hard
time letting go of it even after Jesus commanded them to.Very sad
The punishment must fit the crime.OK, capital punishment fits the
crime of murder.What punishment fits the crime of raping a child and
destroying their ability to function in society? Sometimes being alive is worse
than death. What punishment would fit the crime of destroying an innocent
child's happiness to such an extent that they take their own life years
later?Don't try to tell me about justice until you have been
repeatedly raped the way I was by my uncle! I did the right thing and told my
parents and the police. At first they didn't believe me because he was an
important local LDS leader. But after a couple of years, they finally could no
longer deny it. He got thrown in prison, but the entire extended family have
been blaming me ever since! How could I destroy such a righteous man's life?!
But what about MY life?Don't tell me about justice until you can
show me the scars on YOUR arms from trying to commit suicide so many times I
stopped counting!The death penalty is TOO GOOD for child rapists! It
lets them off too easily!
The problem with any group of people who think they can do no wrong (right is
right)is that they are easily swayed by the politics of the day to support even
the useless murder of others.All one has to do is push their emotional
buttons and people being people believe they must be obedient to the perpetrator
of capital punishment in lieu of the crystal-clear teachings of our Lord Jesus
Child rape is wrong. Child rape isn't Child murder.The punishment
must fit the crime. Killing a man who is not a murderer is wrong.This is a conservative view and ANYONE who apposes this ought to realize how
unjust they are. This isn't even eye for an eye. It's less than that. Eye for an
eye has been done away with. You people pretend to be LDS.
Few religious groups are as blood-thirsty as the Latter-day Saints. A large
majority of LDS not only support capital punishment, but do so with a
self-righteous indignation that is truly surprising. I suppose that stems from
all their history where their leaders (who are considered to speak on behalf of
God Himself) have emphasized blood atonement, a willingness to kill in the name
of obedience to God (Moutain Meadows), and they even have an assassination in
their scriptures (Nephi, a prophet of God, cuts off the head of a defenseless
man). Is it any wonder Jesus' teachings fall on deaf ears in Mormon
Amazing how fast some people will blatantly ignore the words of the most liberal
man that ever lived for some cheap, seedy, and barbaric political partyand
its nasty ideology.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth:But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.And if any man
will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke
also.And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not
thou away.Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour, and hate thine enemy.But I say unto you, Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which despitefully use you, and persecute you;That ye may be the children
of your Father which is in heaven:For if ye love them which love you, what
reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?Be ye therefore
perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.(Matthew5:38-48)
I live in Texas where the state actually executes those on death row. It's a
very active death row and inmates are executed for the crimes they commit. I
absolutely hate to see the many vicious and heinous crimes that are committed,
but there is at least a little comfort knowing these scumbags will be put to
death for the crimes they commit. Whereas, in Utah if a convict is on Death
Row, he will end up dying from natural causes instead of execution.
I would NEVER say that child rape is OK. And I agree that we need to teach
children right from wrong, consequences, and that they CAN speak up for
justice.I absolutely believe that the victim must be kept safe from
the perpetrator. I also know that most perpetrators are friends or relatives,
and that many children are quick to assume "responsibility" for things that are
in no way their fault.I think many, many children would simply feel
mortified if they believed that they were the reason for the death of their own
father, brother, etc. (even if he had been raping them for months).Of course we can give them counseling and tell them that they did the right
thing, but that's still a pretty heavy burden for a child to live with. They've
just survived one terrible trauma. Do you want to introduce one more?
The bottom line:"...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive
those who trespass against us."
So you are saying chid rape is okay, it has no real victims, even if you are
rape over 120 times in six months?HOw about teaching children right
and wrong and that there are consequences for wrong?HOw about
teaching children their voice is important and they can speak out and get
justice?Child psychologisst are finding out it more helpful and
healthy and makes it easier and quicker to get over what happend to them if they
are allowed to speakout in court. Denying their voice is actually doing more
That anonymous poster was right, "MOST child rapists are known to their victims.
They are friends, relatives, neighbors, etc. Most do NOT kill their victims." I
was sexually abused by my brother-in-law when I was a child. I didn't dare tell
anyone because I was so afraid he would be sent to jail, and everyone would
blame me. I can't even imagine what would go through a child's mind if they
thought they would be responsible for someone's death. Try thinking of this
ordeal from a child's perspective. Most children are much quicker to forgive
I have three questions.IS there separation of government and
church/religion? Does this mean criminals should not be punished and
victims get no justice?How will justice be satisfied?
It is interesting how liberals will use the New Testament to support the
abolition of the death penalty. I thought in their world of separation of
Church and State that religion was never to be brought up. The execution of
murders is an issue of State and not of religion. The death penalty for murder
has been imposed by all past civilizations and of all religions. It was a way
for governments to met out the worst punishment for the worst offenders of civil
law. Now the liberals are making it a religious argument. How convenient when
it fits their agenda. But let someone try and pray in the public school and then
they throw religion right out the door.
"...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against
us."I love the Lord's Prayer.!
Fogiveness is good. Forgiveness is divine.But in a "liberal" world
there is NO JUSTICE for the victim.What about JUSTICE?Does not JUSTICE need to be satisfied?Jesus certainly said so.
I've noticed how casually Mike Richards above is prone to longer and longer
tirades to support the revenge-killings of those he does not like.All the more reason for the rest of us to remember THESE simple words:"... and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against
IT's fine to forgive the perpetrator.But it doesn't punish the
perpetrator for his actions.Nor give justice to the victim.Jesus never forgave anyone. (he didn't forgive the prostitute, he just told to
go sin no more, he NEVER said he forgave her he just wasn't condemning
[punishing] her either)The only people Jesus ASKED his
father to forgive was his executioners.So where does this big lesson
on forgiveness come from?Jesus taught if anyone offend a little one
it is better they hung millstone around their neck and drowned themselves.Sounds pretty serious to commit crime against a little child.There must be JusticeHeb.11.33: who through faith conquered
kingdoms, enforced justice He condemned those who didn't give real
justice:Luke.11.42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and
rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to
have done, without neglecting the others. There MUST be justice.HOw does sitting in jail cell for months or years bring justice?It does nothing to satisfy justice.Until equality is brought
for his actions no justice happens.Until the victim says: "it is
enough", justice is not done.
Nice job at trying to bait-and-switch Jesus Forgives (aka Mike Richards), but
while you want to put people to death for vengeful reasons, I think I'll just
stick with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ who revered all life and told
us to forgive those who trespass against us.
To Scripture,I thought the LDS believed that Jesus (Jehovah) IS the
God of the Old Testament?If that is true, why was Jesus (Jehovah)
such a barbaric (eye for an eye) kind of god before he was born, and then was
all about love and forgiveness after?Doesn't make much sense does
it? Would the Jesus of the New Testament really have ordered the genocide of
several peoples as Jehovah did in the Old Testament?And what about
Jesus' teaching that those who "offend" little children would have been better
off with stones tied around them and they be cast into the sea? That sounds like
the death penalty (ala The Godfather) to me!Hmmmmmm...
I think Anonymous 10:42 has been watching way too much TV.
To Anonymous | 6:50 a.m."A child rapist will kill anyone who can
identfy them no matter what."MOST child rapists are known to their
victims. They are friends, relatives, neighbors, etc. Most do NOT kill their
victims. Most poison their victims minds that it is the victims fault or scare
them into silence. FYI
As the machiavellians stage their last stand in trying to force neocon
authoritarianism on people - the majority of Americans stick to the Christian
principles and follow Jesus' liberal examples and teachings.Thank God for
the old America I used to know and love!
Note how often anonymous 6:50 uses the word "liberal" in his tirade.This
is how they got the Bush/Cheney administration in power.
Let me get this "liberal" logic straight:Child rapists are NOT
concerned about getting identified because they will not get the death
penalty.But if will get the death penalty they WILL be concerned
about being identified.Just being found out they are child rapist
doesn't worry them.What kind sick twisted mind numbing logic is this
anyways?Clearly only something a liberal mind could think up to
excuse punishing a child rapist.A child rapist will kill anyone who
can identfy them no matter what.It's not the death penalty that
stops them, it's thinking the victim will not say anythng.How could
liberal logic be so stupid and nieve?It's like they just make up
lies to themselves to make what ever they think all right.
Here's what I know about scripture:Old Testament's barbaric eye-for-an-eye
has been washed away and replaced with New Testament's Jesus Christ's spirit of
I believe Mike Richards is saying most conservatives believe in the death
penalty and not in abortion rights. He is also saying most liberals do not
believe in the death penalty but support abortion rights. To me both seem
inconsistent. I believe in the sanctity of life at both ends. I think more
protection needs to be in place for unborn children. But it is also a difficult
decision to put even the most hardened criminals to death, if life in prison is
To 10:31,Truth is truth no matter where it is found. A
truly religious person knows that truth comes from God through one means or
another.Great scientists, such as Henry Eyring, had no difficulty
accepting God as the author of truth. Great scientists are also humble enough
to know that just because they can't prove something doesn't mean that it isn't
true.The danger comes when someone dismisses truth because it is
found in religion, especially when that person has no belief in God. An equally
serious danger comes when someone has a very limited understanding of God, but
thinks that his limited understanding of God encompasses all of humanity's
knowledge of God.So, where does that leave us in this discussion
about capital punishment? When someone quotes a scripture and claims that that
scripture represents God's entire viewpoint on a subject, that person has no
understanding of God, of scripture or of truth. On the other hand,
when someone quotes the Supreme Court and uses the Court's rulings to define
truth, that person has no understanding of the law or of truth.Truth
contains all laws, but law does not contain all truth. There is a difference.
There is a difference between what I should do and what society should do. I
should forgive those that wrong me. Society should punish those people. If the
death penalty is affixed to a crime and somebody choses to commit it, that
person must be punished by death or the society falls apart- just as if people
quit stopping at red lights. Also, nobody should have to pay to keep someone
alive that no longer has a place in society.
To Just a Guy:I just want to say welcome to Utah, and welcome to the LDS
faith! I think the most important thing any of us can do is to follow what we
feel in our hearts. I strongly believe we have all been given a conscience that
is indeed that part of divinity within us. I think if you really know yourself
you should be able to trust what you feel (and think). Anyways, those are just
my thoughts. Me, personally, I lean a little left, but it works for me.
Anyways, welcome, if you actually are still reading in here.
I am from out state.I am appalled at the hatred i see from liberals
and non mormons have toward mormons and conservatives.I have never
seen hate from liberals it like I have been reading these comments.I
have never seen liberals so full hate for a religion or an opposing viewpoint
except in washington D.C.Liberals talk a good game about accepting
everyone and tolerance for everything but sure play different game.While at the same time I read the conservative viewpoints that are without
hate and very patient respectful of their attacking opponents,but
same time trying to explain their point view.While liberals attack
them in hatred for everything, utahn-ness, conservatism, religion, etc.just a guy you are wrong on where the hatred is coming from, very
wrong.and really a soft way to do the same attacking.You
fool no one.HOw does raping a little chld many times equate to jail
time?I don't see the equality of punishment nor justice.The SCOTUS ruling said the punishment MUST fit the crime. (eye for eye?!)HOw does it fit??? HOw did the victim get justice???How does
resting in a cell equate to justice?
Mike-Thanks, I agree about following the prophet. Since I joined the church,
the most viscious attacks against the church that I have witnessed have come
from the Religious Conservatives that are not Mormon. I really haven't picked
up on the whole "hate religion" thing from the liberals that I have encountered.
Everyone I know from my hometown is non-mormon and Republican. I haven't heard
anything as awful as those good god-fearing Republicans speaking about the
Thanks for point out how insidious the rape of a child is.And thanks
to the generosity of the liberals child rapists can spend the rest of their life
in a tax paid condo. NOT really justice, but liberals don't believe
in that.HOW DOES PUTTING ANYONE IN A CELL FOR ANY LENGTH TIME BRING
ABOUT JUSTICE?????Where's the justice? Where's the punishment? Timeouts don't work adults. They hardly even work with children.Liberals would rather forgive all the bad guys until their brains fall
out rather do the stark reality of punishing you have to do. Where
can real justice be found?
To 9:41,The most amazing thing about the "Mormon" Church is that
they have a Prophet who speaks for the Church. If you want to know the position
of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on any subject, you need to
listen to the Prophet.Many Liberals hate religion and those who
belong to any faith. They prefer to live in a godless society where they are
free to make up rules that suit them for any particular circumstance. Those
Liberals take pot shots at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
They love nothing more than to point their fingers at anyone who affiliates with
that Church.Yes, I am very proud to be a member of that Church; but,
I don't speak for the Church.There is a big difference between
speaking one's mind and being a spokesman. The first is the obligation of every
citizen. The second is a privilege given by those in authority to a select few.
The main requirement to be a good Mormon is to keep Christ's
commandments - all of them - as set forth by His prophets.
Short answer to "just a guy"- no. As for Charles, congrats on concluding
as I do, that FINAL judgment is not to be avoided. Since that's the case, what's
the hurry on trying to deal out the punishment now? Sure, there are people who
just can't be allowed loose again, but if we simply let eternal judgment take
care of itself, we will not have spent extra funds, given someone another reason
for a drunken party outside a prison or mistakenly executed the wrong person.
And, though I know you don't care, we will also be seen by our western allies as
more sane. I'll take those every day over some phony "closure".
Death penalty for anything less than murder is LESS THAN eye for and eye.It's disgusting that the people have become unforgiving. How 'bout that
for a liberal attitude?I HATE NOTHING MORE than people in Utah who
think that any view aside from their own isn't Conservative. I personally feel
that LDS doctrine wouldn't support something less than eye for an eye. WE DON'T
EVEN SUPPORT THAT.Think I'm rude all you want but you attacked other
views aside from your own and I'm defending what I believe is Truth.
I have been sitting back all day watching this discussion take place. I'm
actually new to Utah and new the the Mormon church. I haven't completely formed
a political philosophy yet and I'm interested in every perspective. I must say
that in today's discussion, at least, the conservative perspective as presented
by Charles and Mike seems judgmental and angry and poorly thought out. I don't
really want to be like them. Is that a requirement when one becomes a "good"
to someone you know....wrong on all accounts my friend. I'm not a Utahn and I'm
not looking for any fight. Funny you would use those words. All I asked was for
Alpaca to back up his claims. It was, and still is, a simple request. I don't
want to know what Google says, I want to hear what Alpaca says.You
must be a typical liberal because when you get asked to support your theories
you retreat to you bedrooms and close the door. Obama is doing it, Pelosi and
Reid do it, Schumer, Durbin, Clinton; the whole lot of them.There is
a right and a wrong; that's what this life is about to distinguish between the
two and do what is right. What's sad is that liberals don't believe in right and
wrong; only what "feels" good in their live and let live world.It
doesn't really matter if there is a death penalty because come judgment day;
they will get theirs and it won't be pretty...but liberals will feel good for
not judging someone's actions and behaviors and pat themselves on the back for
standing next to them all the way down......
To SFMIYou wrote: "Why can we not sentence them to life without
parole? That would serve Justice, protect society, and punish those that deserve
it." I think this is an excellent idea, probably much less expensive for
society, and easier or the victim, than a round of endless appeals and court
to One Utah Mother, I think people who kill others and rape adults or children
are not in their right minds, especially rapists. They do not think or even
worry about the consequences/death penalty. But one problem that we have is
that so many get out and rape again and again. Why can we not sentence them to
life without parole? That would serve Justice, protect society, and punish
those that deserve it.
AlpacaFamilia is not your dancing pig Charles. He doesn't need to respond your
your every taunt. It isn't hard to find out what the argument is. Just google
Jesus/social/liberal and you will get an idea what the general argument is. It
is a widely argued point of view. You just wanted a fight. That has always been
obvious. In the normal course of things, when I see that many people have a
different point of view than I do, I take pause and consider the possibility
that I am wrong. Utah Conservatives, on the other hand, see opposiing points of
view as divine validation that they are correct. "What I believe must be true,
because so many of the ungodly don't agree with me." This is a pathology that
leads to zealotry and poverty of thought.
I can understand your outrage at injustice against innocent children, but do you
really believe that we live in a society that "welcomes child rape?" Have you heard anyone advocating for more rape, or to "honor" rapists? I
could never "excuse" their behavior, but I don't think it is up to me to kill
them either. Think of the child for a moment. In most cases they are raped by
relatives or someone very close to the family. How hard would it be for that
child to live with having been raped and then also having to survive the death
of their father, brother, or favorite uncle?Rape can be very vicious
and violent, but it can also happen in a more gentle way that is extremely
confusing to a child. Sometimes the child is made to feel "extra special"
because of what is happening. I know this is absolutely bizarre, but it
happens.Sometimes it's easier to live with the perpetrator being
safely locked away than it is to believe you may have been responsible for his
death. There's more than just one "black and white" way to look at this.
Dear, dear Mike,You seem so angry and out-of-focus to me, but I
don't know what to say that could possibly influence you. I honestly don't
think there is ANYONE at all on this site who believes in hurting innocent
children. Where did you ever get that idea? I'm a mother, and I cringe at the
thought of anyone ever harming a child. I'm also lost as to how you would think
ANYONE in their right mind could possibly desire that. My own
personal thinking is that having the death penalty for rapists actually puts our
children at a greater risk. Once a rapist has actually raped a child, what
possible motivation would there be for him to keep that child alive if he knows
a death penalty awaits him if he is caught? It might not be much of a
deterrent, but it might possibly make him think twice about killing my child if
he realizes that raping her doesn't have as serious of a consequence as
murdering her does.Again, I'm quite certain that no one, and I mean
NO ONE in their right mind believes that raping a child is a GOOD thing--not
I knew Alpaca wouldn't have the courage to post any back up to their claims.Alpaca, you see what you want to see and that is great. I see you as
immovable in all of your posts and criticize conservatives regularly. You don't
take the high road even though you think you do.There is right and
wrong in life. You unfortunately don't see it that way. Oh well, you see what
you see. And I highly doubt you'll ever change your mind.So does
that make you better than everyone else? Nope.I've argued the points
of the issue but you don't like them. I don't care.I'm still waiting
for you to share your wisdom and knowledge of how Christ is social liberal and
your definition of it. You can't even put that out there???? Yes, dialogue...
RE Charles: Courts didn't malfunction in CA and Ma, they overturned laws that
were UNCONSTITUTIONAL, meaning, they wrote the law in a lazy fashion and it
needs to be re-written to be CONSTITUTIONAL.
America, a Christian nation has the highest percentage of its population
imprisoned for crimes. Why would any other nation look to American Christians
for ways to improve their nation?As a liberal, I really would like
to be civil. If liberals fail to fight, some day there will be conservative's
final solution to the "liberal problem." It doesn't take much of an imagination
to see conservatives would murder if they believed it was for the betterment of
their homeland. Read what conservatives feel. Feel the hatred. Only
a fool would park his car with California plate around Escalante with a "Save
the Earth" bumper sticker. You could get shoot for having a Save the Wolves in
Wyoming. The hatred is real. Life means little and it has little
value to those who believing killing is a solution.
RE MIKE:Since you have drawn the lines let me clearly say where I'm at.rapists: deserve the punishment due, which currently is NOT death.abortion: a matter of choice, one which you may or may not regret, but a
choice. Pregnancies too far developed should not be aborted. Our
country is very diverse, which is why freedom of CHOICE seem to work well here.
Not every shares yours or my viewpoints, we all have to make the choices we hold
ourselves accountable for.
to 7:18pm...I'll agree that I was a little disturbed by the Shiavo thing as
well; too many unknowns about that situation.However, the rest of
your point is a good one. Let's list a couple of items that liberals have used
the courts to circumvent the will of the people that was law.Roe v
Wade - complete circumvention of states and legislatures. SCOTUS "found" some
"right" that had never been there before.Mass and Cali - courts
again manufacture a right that was never there and overturned law and then
legislated new law from the bench. All of these done in the name of
secular religion. I guess it really works both ways when one stops to smell the
roses.Lastly, you may be religious, but there are very few religious
liberals that I know. Most are CEO's. You know, Christmas and Easter Onlys to
appease their mothers.
Where, oh where is Lionheart? We disagree, but can have a civil conversation.
Mike and Charles, I salute you. You are immune to any honest effort to have a
discussion. You are immovable. I'm sure that you think that is good. Charles.
If you review my posts, you will find that I argue a point of view, but don't
tend to generalize and demonize those that don't have the good sense to agree
SMFI-Liberals are often religious. They just don't want the government run by
the Sanhedrin. Remember how well that worked out? Or the Mullahs? Or the
Inquisition? My religious beliefs are mine and yours are yours. The problem
occurs when the government is not neutral and tries to assert a particular
religious point of view. The Terry Shivo (sp?) case is a particularly good
example of the problem. The law was followed at every step and the Republican
Congress tried to circumvent these laws for political purposes to try to
dispense with the rule of law. That was bad government and it was bad because
the government acted not according to the law, but as a willful agent of a
9:53 a.m said it so clearly.Now that there are more than eighty
posts, the lines are clearly drawn. Those who love the rapist and want to
protect him have spoken their piece. Those who want the innocent to be killed
have made it known. Those who value every life, except the life of an unborn
child or a child who has been raped have told us why.Those who love
children and unborn babies have also spoken their piece. Thank God
that our thoughts, our words, and our deeds are being recorded for all
eternity.Remember the scene where Christ gathered the little
children to himself in 3 Nephi chapter 17? Let us read it over and over and
over until the worth of a child is written in our hearts. Then, maybe we'll
know the difference between vengeance and justice. Then, maybe we'll finally see
the worth of a precious child.
Alpaca, I'm sorry your feelings aren't being validated on these boards. I've
read your stuff over the past few months I have yet to see one of your posts
show any understanding of conservative values. Maybe you have but I haven't seen
it.You make outrageous statements IMO and I call you and others on
them. You don't come back with facts, you come back with your liberal talking
points. I find it interesting that liberals tell us conservatives that we have
no flexibility in our discussions and unless we move to your point of view we
are just Rush/hannity/o'reilly fanatics.I'm not surprised that
liberals think Christ was a social liberal but until you give your definition of
that phrase, one can't agree or disagree. That's ok if you don't want to show
off your great and vast knowledge and reading of the subject. I understand;
humility goes a long way.bethatasitmay, I'll never back down from
defending truth and righteousness; whether you agree with it or not is
irrelevant to me. Truth is truth.The death penalty should be used
more often and abortions should be outlawed.
You liberals brought up the sanctity of life issue.don't cry because
you don't have leg to stand on.Justice denied, whether you flap your
gums in platitudes about how we should treat each other, is still justice
Let me try to get this straight...Liberals constantly don't want America to have
even the perception of religion, but say we need to forgive and not execute like
it says in the Bible. I am no history buff, but something tells me that
executions were done in all societies throughout the world long before
Christianity arrived in those areas and long after. So trying to make execution
shoulnd't be done just doesn't fit with that reasoning. And since you like to
use Christ's words to prove your point, then you need to remember that He said
"render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's". The death penalty should be used
whenever the law is broken for which death is the punishment. Rape of a child
does not fit that criteria, but if it did then it should. Personally, I don't
think they should see the light of day, no cable TV, no recreation, no music,
fed through a slot in the door and the door only opened to remove the dead body
Way to go Bill!Perhaps YOU can knock some sense into your Limbaugh party
brothers and sisters on this Death Penalty subject.Oh, that's right. It's
now a roe v wade discussion.How silly of me.Okay then. Perhaps YOU
can knock some sense into your neocon bothers and sisters heads.:>
Charles-This isn't the vehicle for such a discussion (Jesus/Liberal)and I
suspect that you are not really interested in a discussion. All you have ever
done is lift your nose into the air and disparage anyone who would dare have an
opinion other than yours. You don't seem to ever engage in a discussion. That
you act so surprised is evidence that you are not familiar with the wide body of
literature and apologetics that makes this case. You may not agree with it, of
course, but it isn't something that can be so casually dismissed....that is if
you don't want to appear to be inflexible and closed minded.
Anonymous | 6:20 p.m -I take great umbrage when you suggest that I, a liberal,
do not value life. You dont even have a clue about how much I value life.
Where do you get such a nonsensical idea? The great liberal thinkers and
writers of the past 100 years have all been known for their focus on the human
condition and solutions to the sorrows and ills that plague us as humans. Why
in the world would you think that liberals turn their back on victims of violent
crime and deny them justice? You have to widen your exposure to information.
It sounds like you get it from one source. Remember that though there arent
many of us in Utah, liberals are real people with children and families, who
love this country and want to make the world a better place. Not that different
from you, I suspect.
I am a social liberal. I am also a returned missionary, active temple recommend
holder and a father of five. I am against abortion. I think that it is wrong
on many different levels. It is not murder, however. If you are LDS, your
leadership will not baptize someone who has committed murder. They will baptize
someone who has had an abortion. It happens all the time. Abortion is
sanctioned in the case of rape, or insest, or for the health of the mother.
Think about that when you argue about the murder of fetuses. It isn't the same
thing, as horrible as it is to think about.
So tell me Charles, since the topic has now unilaterrally morphed from capital
punishement into a roe v wade thing (Good idea since Jesus Christ himself would
definitely not be in favor of vengeance murders conducted legally)what are
your plans to get roe v wade overturned?Have you contacted Hatch, Leavitt,
Bennet, Cannon etc. with your concerns?There appears to be some difficulty
in getting it overturned. Why do you suppose THAT is?
So this subject is now about Roe v Wade?And we can put the capital
punishment to bed?Such stupid, stupid, neocons!Pulling the
wool over their own eyes while the rest of America leaves them in the dust.
Remember that almost all gun violence is committed by so called Law abiding
citizens.Everybody is a law abiding citizen until they break the law. Let's hear
it from the outraged gun nuts with nothing constructive going on in their lives.
Yee-ha! Bang Bang! too bad not all of you can afford to buy Hummers!
Alpaca, Oh please tell us in what ways Christ was a social liberal. I can't wait
to see this one...ready, set GOto 5:55....actually conservatives are
growing in numbers but that's a different day. I love how you have put words in
my mouth but I know that is the liberal way. Christ didn't support the death
penalty. Well, my friend, I think you have a different set of scriptures that
what I have. Or if we do have the same, maybe you should open yours a little
more and read them.And yes, the typical liberal using word games to
justify the killing of children. That's nice. Do you feel better calling them
fetus'? Have you never seen an ultrasound of a child in the womb? I'm sure you
will have a wonderful conversation with Christ as you attempt to justify
yourself by saying, "It was only a fetus; really it is just a fetus" I'm sure
he'll buy that one.I'd be happy to show you all the communication
I've sent to all political representatives regarding abortion and other issues.
Yes, I participate in the process unlike name-calling foolishness that you show
Jesus Christ would not condone legalized vengeance murders.Accept
this neoncons.Now quit wasting time and start contacting your
representatives, congressmen, etc. if you are serious about overturning roe v
wade.Otherwise the rest of America 80-something percent will just
view you as Limbaugh buffoons who like to hear themselves talk.
It's funny liberals talk about the sanctity of life,while turning
their backs to the aborting of millions and millions of babies.and
turning their back the many many victims of violent crime, and denying them
justice.If justice will not be done here, it certainly will in the
The way the neocons have been riled up at this subject and insist it's okay to
murder somebody if they want to legally (even though Jesus Christ clearly would
not have supported capital punishment) reminds me of my all-time favorite
scripture story where Jesus bodily threw the hypocrites out of his temple.
Capital punishment is a sore spot with Utahns.This is most likely because
of the change of attitude (revelation) of blood atonement.I cannot relate
to this predicament as I myself was raised with the standard Christian notion of
reverence for all life. We were taught that only God can take a life. Obviously, others were not raised that way.
Charles-Jesus wasn't just a liberal, he was a radical liberal. In historical
context, by today's standards, by any standards, Jesus was a social liberal.
Sorry. By the way, what comments can you point to that suggest that liberals
"truly don't believe in the victim but in those who commit these heinous
crimes?" I have done a quick review and I see no sense that anybody has any
sympathy for anyone who hurts children. Punishment is appropriate and
necessary. Some of us (including the whole Catholic Church, by the way) believe
that killing is innefective as a tool to teach the sanctity of life, that it is
irreversable, that mistakes are certainly made, that it is applied differently
according to economic and racial backgrounds and that it does harm to our
nation's spirit. None of that implies any sense that punishment should not
occur. You have made this up, whole cloth.
Charles is one of our neoconservatives (dwindling in number)who requires enemies
to survive. So angry and mad at the world, when they run out of enemies -they
turn on each other. "McCain is not conservative enough" and "So-and-so-is a
Baptist", on and on with that sort of childish neocon BS. Then they switch
from capital punishment (clearly not supported by Jesus Christ) to dead babies
and as per usual their perennial long-term enemy is, you guessed it - the
liberals who are now responsible for aborted fetuses. Yet they are not
interested in contacting people like Hatch, Bennet, Cannon, Reid, Leavitt, etc.
to get that pesky Roe v Wade turned around.See how they function? Clever
group aren't they?
Nice taking scriptures out context.read the context you might see
they talking about something else.for instance "the Judge not" is
NOT about judging, but about making yourself an hypocrite.Forgiving
someone, does NOT imply they should not be punshed for their wrongs. He is talking about how the victim should react, NOT what should be done about
the perpetrator.Justice must be fulfilled.Only through
repentance, does Jesus suffering for our sins take effect, (NOTE: someone has to
pay for the sin one way or the other)What is justice for a girl that
has been raped over 120 times?What is punshment for guy rapes a
little girl over 120 times?Sitting in a cell with cable tv and all
the books he could ever read? Is that punishment? IS that justice?
The comments of the left are indicative of their beliefs. They truly don't
believe in the victim but in those who commit these heinous crimes.I
especially love the people who spout off about Rush Limbaugh as if that is
supposed to be an insult of some kind. And as if they actually listen to him;
which we know they don't because it would make them vomit, right? Rush has the
left pegged dead on everyday and you don't have a clue about it. What's truly scary on these pages are those who would want to protect these
people and yet show no feelings towards the little children. I've
read on the homosexual pages of these boards that conservatives aren't supposed
to use the Bible for any belief system. Now we have liberals pulling out all
stops with their quotes of the Bible. Gotta laugh at that one; a liberal using
the Bible for justification.Bill, good questions. care to answer
them or do you just pose them?to no thanks...you can see what you
want, but do you also see that it's ok to murder over 1 million babies each year
in the name of "choice"? didn't think so....
To anon 5:03 -Now that is the lamest paraphrasing I've heard yet that's
supposed to support Jesus' commanding of capital punishment.The neocons
have clearly gone round the bend.
Sorry, anonymous 5:03 -Show me where Jesus says "put them to death for me"
and I'll pay attention. He paraphrased a lot, of course but had too much
reverence for all life to command the Old Testament (or Koran) style of
Always the mean, punitive, throw 'em all into hell Old Testament God is so
popular with today's modern American conservative movement.If only they
might experience the joy, freedom, and the happiness of the New Testament God
that forgives, is open, loving, caring.Jesus came into being to turn the
nasty Old Testament thinking around but the neocons want nothing of that sort of
Thats already been said this thread... read.
Jesus quite clearly said , and I paraphrase,Anyone who hurts these
littles ones it is better that they were dead.What more is there to
Sorry re not in MY scriptures 4:28 -I see nothing that supports the
right-wing's barbaric philosophy of putting another human being to death for
vengeance reasons.Meanwhile, I think I'll stick with these words you
refuse to read and absorb:"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye
for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you... whoever slaps you on your
right cheek, turn the other to him also." "He who is without sin
among you, let him throw a stone at her first." "But if you do not
forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
"Judge not, that you be not judged." Bless those who
persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not
avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance
is Mine, I Will repay," says the Lord."
I am personally not worried about a global flood Mike, since I built an ark, and
collect two of every animal, all of which are the same sex.
The person in the supreme court case raped an 8 year old Girl over a 120 times
over several months.And death is not an appropriate punishment?!Would death have been worse to this girl?IN fact it is too
kind and generous.The guy should have felt blessed considering what
will happen to him in prison.
read Mark 7:10 there you will see Jesus agreeing with the law of the death
Whats the big deal about giving the death penalty for child rapists? That
person will get life in prison anyway? The issue of guns is much more important
If the image of a child being raped is stuck in your mind and you can't get it
out, perhaps some professional help would be in order for you rather than
politically bashing liberals (aka Democrats)and then flipping over to a
discussion of abortion that is somehow supposed to support your feelings about
capital punishment.Too many people today (they call themselves
conservatives) are turning to this sort of nasty side of politics and it appears
that it is making things worse for them.
I have never found anything in scripture where Jesus supports the violent murder
of another human being for vengeful, sociological reasons.
Dear BH -ALWAYS follow and apply Christ's teachings.ALWAYS.And
try to break away from and cult, political group or splinter group that
contradicts Christ's teachings.You will never go wrong this way.
I know of no rapists being "honored". As for innocent children and the outrage
Mile R. thinks we need more of, he must know that every state in the country has
added prison space in the last 20 years. He might (but I doubt it) also know
that our country has more people in prison than any other country on earth. And
nobody in or out of those prisons is "bowing to perverts." Let's skip the hype
here. Adults are watching.
If you kill a scum bucket for raping a child I'll GUARANTEE he'll never do it
again!Can you promise me the same thing if he goes to jail for five years
and then gets turned loose by some bleeding heart parole board?
Before we have another world-wide flood that drowns us all, falling from the
eyes of those crying for the rapist, let's just visualize in our own minds what
actually happens when a child is raped. Go ahead. Think about it
You don't have to have any imagination to see a little child being raped by a
crazed beast who has abandoned all decency as he/she acts out a well studied
series of events leading to the utter destruction of an innocent child.Think of the magazines, the music, the movies, the fantasies that served as
the school for the rapist.Talk about pre-meditated!Now
think about the little child. Save your tears for the children.
This is big news arriving today everyone:We no longer have to read
the Bible: Mike Richards has spoken, and his words have replaced God's.He has said that God's words do not apply to us anymore, and he has put his
own words in God's place. His judgement has replaced God's.I'd say
that's big news.
No BH, what I would suggest is to turn off the Rush Limbaugh Show, go to work on
transforming your mind away from aggressive, violent, jingoistic, preemptive war
philosophy and focus on this instead:"You have heard that it was
said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you... whoever
slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." "He who
is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." "But
if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive
your trespasses." "Judge not, that you be not judged." Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for
evil... do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is
written, "Vengeance is Mine, I Will repay," says the Lord." Focus on
these words again and again and again.It may take some time to feel a
sense of peace again but it CAN be done.
BH, I don't disagree with you, really. But we also need to understand why we
are so violent and why we as a nation break laws to such excess. We have
imprisoned a higher percentage of our population than any civilization in the
history of the world. Americans commit violent crimes at a significantly higher
rate than any other develped country. Why is it that we have significantly
higher rates of rape, murder, armed robery, domestic violence, racial violence,
and violence against children than any other nation. Why is that? It can't be
the nutty liberal left, all of those industrialized countries have far more
liberal governments and societies than ours. Why does the land of the free and
the home of the brave create such monsters?
Yes correct interpretation of the scriptures will help us reason out this modern
"a nation that has clapped and cheered as 48,000,000 innocent babies were
slaughtered in the womb"...?This poor sap simply cannot drag himself away
from the Rush Limbaugh Show and this sort of wacko postings reveal that instead
of breaking his medication in half he would be better off taking the WHOLE
Mike Richards-I am so sorry that you profess the beliefs that you do. You
have created an evil, bent, malintended monster and you call them "liberals."
But that reality is in your own mind and not anywhere in form. Before anybody
objects, I know that the left can be just as destructive in stereotypes of the
right. But Mike, if you think that liberals try and "protect perverts" and
suggest that the "innocent should be defiled" you really need some help. Every
single liberal I know, without exception feels the pain of victims at least as
deeply as any conservative I have met. Is it beyond you to see an honest
differennce of opinion? How dare you suggest that because someone doesn't
believe that Capital Punishment is appropriate they have "no concern for the
innocent child" that they "welcome child rape" and that the "bow before pervers
and child rapists." You have no decency in you, it seems. You do not seem to
have any sense of charity or compassion in you. The very way that you speak
about me (a liberal)is without a trace of Christian love, or respect.
Re: Seems clear to me @11:09:If we follow your recommendation and
apply Christ's teachings to the law of the land in regards to capital
punishment, should we not apply the words of Christ to all law enforcement? Are you suggesting a society without punishment or judgement of any kind
for any crime? If we read the New Testament as a whole, instead of a few select
passages, it would be clear that is not the intent. There must be laws. There
must be those called as judges. There must be punisments that are compensurate
to the crime.Until our society as a whole is ready to live a better
way, we must have a means to protect the society.
The death penalty is pure violence, a barbaric and useless violence. Dangerous
even, because it can only lead to other acts of violence--as all violence does.
The supreme punishment ought to be a life sentence, and one without
brutality.Once again, Jesus Christ new exactly what he was talking about
with "turn the other cheek."
Look at this thread and count how many are chanting: "Give us Barabbas!". The liberal left will stop at nothing when trying to establish a new low
in societal evolution. They will stop at nothing as they protect the perverts
and the lawless while they claim that the innocent should be defiled and
destroyed to further their cause.Where is the concern for the
innocent child? Where is the respect for virtue? Where is the outrage against
an adult who rapes a child? What kind of society welcomes child rape? What kind
of sick society triumphs "justice" as it bows before perverts and child rapists,
as it excuses their conduct and grants them hospitality in its midst?God help us when we honor a rapist; but, what should be expected from a nation
that has clapped and cheered as 48,000,000 innocent babies were slaughtered in
The death penalty isnt a deterrent because criminals dont think they will be
caught. No rapist (child of otherwise) considers the possible punishments before
committing rape. They are rapists, you cant apply your thought processes to
their insane thinking.
The modern American conservative movement has become so calloused by their
jingoism and political partisanship they have lost respect for all life.These are a dangerous people in our society.
Chris,The violins play such sad songs. You can't have it
both ways. God has put the responsibility on keeping an ordered society on us,
His children. He, just like any responsible Father, is not going to continually
fix the problems that we can fix ourselves. He, just like any just and noble
person, expects us to take responsibility for throwing out the trash. He will
give final judgment to those whom He chooses, but to us is left the
responsibility to establish and keep a clean house, a clean society, a clean
neighborhood. We do not have to settle for perversion in our midst.
We do not have to offer our children and our grandchildren as sacrifices on the
alter of liberal society's desire to create a cesspool in our midst.
What would you expect from that group of people that supports preemptive
destruction of innocent mothers and their children in the shock-and-aweing of
Iraq?To support their political base, they even turn a deaf ear to the
words of the ultimate peacekeeper Jesus Christ.I sometimes wish there was
something I might do return to the teachings of The Prince of Peace but they
would rather get instructions from Rush Limbaugh.
Mike Richards once again wants us to forget about the Old Testament's
eye-for-an-eye philosophy (same as the Muslims) that supports the nasty death
penalty, AND the fact that Jesus Christ appeared in history and turned that
whole barbaric idea around with: "if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" and now wants us to look
at killing another human being in revenge as nothing more than pulling weeds.
You are a true hero in the eyes of your fellow neocons, Mike Richards. You
receive a medal from Rush Limbaugh personally.
Re Mike Richards... sounds like GOD has a plan for punishing those when they
face judgment. Certainly that verse in Matthew doesn't say to DROWN those, it
says it were better if they had drowned. Our current system imprisons
those who commit heinous crime against children. I personally wouldn't
want to live next door to someone who executes child molesters anymore than I
would like to live next door to a molester.
Let's get past the name calling and the Old Testament diatribes. Look at
Matthew 18:6, where it says: "But whoso shall offend one of these
little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were
hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."Drowning someone in the depth of the sea might be called cruel and
unusual punishment, but that was pronounced by the Prince of Peace. Christ had
no respect for child molesters.Most of us have gardens. We don't
let the weeds dictate our gardening practices. We don't leave the weeds to see
if they change into something beneficial to our gardens. We know weeds. We
know that weeds, if left unchecked, will destroy our gardens.As a
society, we should know weeds. We should be willing to rip those weeds from our
midst and thrown them away before our society is destroyed.Too many
liberals have decided that weeds are an important part of life, that we should
nurture them, that we should enable them, just to see what they will do. It doesn't work in the garden. It won't work in society.
It's a well-know fact that conservatives follow the very same Old Testament,
eye-for-an ideology that just happens to be a mirror image of Muslim
ideology.Conservatives think nothing of torturing prisoners,
shock-and-aweing civilians and calling this collateral damage, and actively
promoting the death penalty (even though Christ respected all life and taught us
differently).A real sweetheart of a group aren't they?
I see things have gotten so dark and dismal for the conservative Limbaugh crowd
they are back to their same old tricks trying to convince themselves that
liberals (aka Democrats) are working overtime trying to get people to turn gay
and get married, and now those same liberals (aka Democrats) want to murder
babies.And we've got FIVE MORE MONTHS to go before the general
election!Keep posting more of your wacky postings, Neocons.You're
making it easier and easier for mainstream America to drift left.
A couple people mentioned "an eye for an eye" as being Biblical. For the sake
of clarity I think I should point out that it is from the Babylonian Code of
Hammurabi. Basically it was the first example of a legal system
where the punishment fit the crime. Before then you just got arbitrary death
penalties for everything. Of course, considering that the Bible says Babylon
was bad, some must think that balanced punishments are bad and we should go back
to killing everyone. I swear, some people never read past Leviticus... Personally, I think rape is not the same as murder and shouldn't be
punishable by death. Cheers to the supreme court.
I guess Mike R. feels his words are more believable if followed by an
exclamation point. Other than that, his posts are full of "I believe" and
"anyone can see" or "only an idiot would..." It's like getting a finger shaken
at you all day with the shaker unaware of even the possibility of being wrong.
It gets old, man. You need to be aware that rational people can disagree.
Mike Richards, no one is advocating to "save the rapist" the death penalty is
no a penalty for raping, and thats a good thing. I for one would not like to be
a part of a society that kills people for reasons other than murder. Sounds
like you want to take us back to Old Testament times, let me guess... your
To Charles,My apologies for misunderstanding your statement, but it was
certainly inferred:"Liberals cut, rip, poke, suck, tear life out of over 1
million babies every year and call it choice." I am certain that a good number
of those woman who are faced with such a painful choice (I am not a fan of
abortion by the way, and have never met one) are in fact people who would not be
considered a liberal. That was simply my point.
Poor black-and-white conservatives!Neocons like Mike Richards simply must
black-and-white everything before it makes sense to them.To this deluded
politically-motivated type (aka neocons)to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ:
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil
for evil... do not avenge yourselves," is likened to "destroying the victim."It would take a battery of theologians, psychiatrists and social scientists
working night and day to come up with just what motivates this pathetic group of
Save the rapist! Save the rapist! Save the rapist!He has such
outstanding value to our community.Destroy the victim! Destroy the
victim! Destroy the victim!He/she should have known that we had a
rapist in our midst.Liberal views give such enlightenment. What
would we ever do without Liberals to tell us how to think?
Charles- AlpacaFamilia said "Sometimes I think that people who right responses
here haven't actually ever sat down and spoken with a real "liberal." Oh there
are certainly loud extremists that get press because they shout the loudest. But
they are like the Limbaugh's and Hannity's of the wacky conservative wing, all
sound and furey, signifying nothing." The implication was that he was talking
about "liberal" loud extremists. Not rose colored glasses, just the ability to
see clearly. I still say that it was taking a swipe at the extremists in both
factions. You on the other hand...
I get a kick out of conservatives when backed into the corner on a subject, ie.,
Death penalty, how clever they think they are to suddenly change the subject
into ... voila! Now we are discussing partial-birth abortions (see Charles
12:48).I swear the neocons think everything is a partial-segment of The
Rush Limbaugh Show. And this is the main reason their nasty ways are
decreasing in number daily. (Except in Utah where Limbaugh is their neocon god.
Has anyone here know someone who has gotten off earth alive? We all die. Knowing
this fact, why cut a pentalty short?Conservatives think only three
things the government can do right, torture prisoners, figh wars and muder
people.We look at Taxas where many prisoners on death row have been
exonerated by DNA. We know the system has flaws. Christ did capital
punishment. Do you glean anything from his story. The death pentaly was used by
a corupt power structure to rid its self of their questioner. They murdered the
messinger. The lessons is people are imperfect. We should not play
god with lives. Let god do his job.
Bill said that Alpaca said, "I thought that the point he made was evenhanded and
informational. He expressed his view and didn't really make any partisan digs,
other than to say that both sides had extremists that often don't represent the
positions of most people in that group."Another review of Alpaca's
comments doesn't show anything Bill says. Here are Alpaca's comments,"Oh there are certainly loud extremists that get press because they shout the
loudest. But they are like the Limbaugh's and Hannity's of the wacky
conservative wing, all sound and furey[sic], signifying nothing."Yep, sounds even handed and included both sides. I guess Bill has
rose-colored glasses on and must be listening to Air America and their truth
telling anchors....or are they off the air yet because they are morally and
financially bankrupt?Get a clue...JenM...never said what
you claim but your point stands to reason doesn't it? Those who think "choice"
is in the Constitution but murdering an innocent life doesn't merit
consideration or pause. Abortion, killing of innocent life, is the worst stain
on our society. Ever seen a picture of partial-birth abortion? There
is no medical reason to save the mother either!
While campaigning for the presidency, George W. Bush was interviewed by Bill
OReilly. OReilly pointed out that Bush had named Jesus Christ as his model
political philosopher and suggested that this might be a contradiction with
Bushs own support of the death penalty. Bush replied, I cant justify the death
penalty in terms of the New Testament. Im going to justify it in terms of the
law (from No Spin Zone by Bill OReilly, p. 102). OReilly then stated, I dont
believe he [Jesus] would be embracing the death penalty if he were here
today. Bush: We can both agree on this. In the same chapter of his
book (v.104), OReilly states: As for the death penalty, with all due respect to
the president, you dont have to put words into Jesus mouth to infer what he
might have thought on the subject. Most theologians believe he considered all
life sacred and, thus, would most likely oppose the death penalty.
I'm afraid that having the death penalty for raping a child could possibly
encourage more rapists to also kill their victims--"I mean why not if I'm going
to die anyway." But if they leave their victim alive they might simply get jail
time. Which thought do you want doing through the rapists mind if he has just
raped your child? Of course no one ever condones raping a child,
but wouldn't you rather have your child raped and alive than raped and dead?
Mike Richards tells us:"Some crimes cannot be forgiven."Jesus
tells us:"But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will
your Father forgive your trespasses." Thanks, but I think I'll focus
on what liberal Jesus taught rather than what conservative Richards is trying to
Other than death, what could happen to a child that would be worse than rape?
What kind of adult would rape a child? What kind of society approves the rape
of a child?When there is proof positive that a child has been raped,
when there is proof positive that the rapist is known, when there is proof
positive that no mistake has been made, then execute the rapist. Nothing can restore the innocence of that child. Nothing on earth can redeem
the rapist. Society has the right to send home a criminal who has forfeited his
right to live. Some crimes cannot be forgiven. To expect a child
to grow into an adult, knowing that his rapist is enjoying life, even in a
prison, is cruel and unusual punishment to that victim.Why does
society think that it is so essential to protect the rapist? He has already
proven who he is. It's time to let justice take its place in society.
Killing someone = possible death penalty. If you don't kill someone you don't'
deserve to die. Life in prison is pretty harsh, so is 15 years, so is 5.
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
But I tell you... whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him
also." "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at
her first." "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither
will your Father forgive your trespasses." "Judge not, that you be
not judged." Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not
curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not avenge yourselves, but rather give
place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I Will repay," says the
The Old Testament god gave mankind: "An eye for and eye." (this is also the same
philosophy of Muslims)Jesus Christ came along and changed all that in The
New Testament. He taught reverence for all life. (As Buddha did).Why do so
many so-called conservatative "Christians" choose The Old Testament before the
New Testament in todays politically-charged world?
Executing a human being is a pretty drastic thing for society to do. It follows
that there should be some great good that comes from this practice, or else it
should be discontinued altogether. It isn't cheap, owing to all the legal costs
associated with the practice, and it hasn't been shown to be a deterrent to new
crimes. If it was, Texas would be our most peaceful state, which it isn't.So, no savings, and no deterrent. What's the payoff? A momentary
satisfaction that - - will never kill again. Since we can pretty much guarantee
that already with "life without parole", I must conclude that executions just
are not worth it. Most of the western democracies now agree. A true believer
would know that, in the long run, there is no "getting away" with murder or
"If you put a tooth under your pillow, a fairy gives you a quarter for it"Where have you been. The tooth fairy gives at least one dollar for every
tooth these days or you have a very unhappy child on your hands.Get
with the program!
The death penalty does not deter crime. As opposed to life in prison, it costs
more in taxpayer dollars to defend someone on death row- and finally get them
killed. Support of the death penalty is obviously based on revenge- not reason.
The death penalty is simply to put people to death. It doesn't function as a
deterrent as these crimes would be committed anyway. The criminal committing
the act only thinks about the death penalty after.Also, there have
been a number of convicted individuals sitting on death row who were later found
to be innocent of the crime committed. This is why several states suspended
carrying out the death penalty until all those on death row had every
opportunity to get a fair trial. Many times there is a rush to judgement and
justice gets abused.Finally, death penalty cases get to be very
expensive, particularly during the appeals process. Some have advocated life
without possibility of parole as a less expensive process. Life in prison is
quite severe punishment.
To Charles:Just wondering where exactly you got your info that liberals
have more abortions than conservatives. I guess I wasn't aware that before you
sign up for an abortion you fill out a form about your political leanings.
I know of no mother who demands to "cut, rip, poke, suck, tear the life out of
over 1 million babies."NOT ONE.But this is what the sick-minded
conservatives focus on day after day.Is it any wonder the world views this
splinter group of counterrevolutionaries as a twisted and demented lot?
Wow. I am surprised how quickly the jackals have descended on poor old Alpaca.
I thought that the point he made was evenhanded and informational. He expressed
his view and didn't really make any partisan digs, other than to say that both
sides had extremists that often don't represent the positions of most people in
that group. And then we have all of the angry aggressive folks like Charles and
Nasty? who change the subject and then make it a personal attack filled with
vitriol and disregard. Alpaca made the mistake of mentioning two of the
demi-gods of the neo-cons, though in all fairness Charles, he did indicate an
equal problem with extreemists on the liberal side. Read Alpaca's missive and
then read Charles'. One of them sounds like a rabid extremist. One of them
This isn't really a weakening of anything. The death penalty hasn't been used
for anything other than murder for something like 40 years. There are two cases
open now, hence the SC decision. By it seems the SC was merely upholding the
national view on this. No one had done it for 40 years, despite deplorable
crimes taking place everywhere, all that time. Why the push for the death
Conservatives want the death penalty for criminals (specifically murderers and
child rapists).Liberals want the death penalty for unborn babies who
have done nothing wrong except be carried by a mother who doesn't want them.So remind me: Which group is "a nasty people"?
Problem with death penalty is that it allows for no human error on the part of
judges and juries. At least 10 percent of the time they get it wrong. If they're
guilty, sock 'em away forever. That's worse anyway.
i think the death penalty is a great thing but we make it way to quick and ez i
think they should lock some 1 flat on the table take a hammer bash his knee caps
in half than have that person lay there for 12 hours in pain than put a gun to
there head make em beg for there life like they did the helpless victim and than
end there life
The death penalty isn't a deterrent because it doesn't happen soon enough. The
"alleged" yada yada yada.... It is correct that a person is presumed innocent
until proven guilty. When they are found guilty (except OJ) and the punishment
is death, then the appeals need to be expedited and if still found guilty then
carry out the sentence.Alapaca's have problems with Rush and Sean?
Well, the list is endless of the Air America types that you favor in your
liberal land. But you call them mainstream and center aisle. I'm sure you don't
even listen to Rush because you don't like how he says exactly who you are as a
liberal. You don't hear it anywhere else so when you actually hear your stances
by someone else, it makes you cringe so you try to shoot the messenger. His
message on liberals and their beliefs is right on target.As for
conservatives being nasty for approving of the death penalty, at least with
punish people for their horrible actions.Liberals cut, rip, poke,
suck, tear the life out of over 1 million babies every year and call it
choice.Who's being nasty? Ever see a picture of
The conservative Supreme Court didn't see Murder for Rape as eye-for-an-eye.
They saw it as overly punative, and rightly corrected Lousiana's blood lust.
The death penalty is a deterant to crime.Iraq has WMD's.If you put a
tooth under your pillow, a fairy gives you a quarter for it.
How about the criminals?
Sometimes I think that people who right responses here haven't actually ever sat
down and spoken with a real "liberal." Oh there are certainly loud extremists
that get press because they shout the loudest. But they are like the Limbaugh's
and Hannity's of the wacky conservative wing, all sound and furey, signifying
nothing. I oppose the death penalty because it is barbaric and because it is
irreversable. It can't account for mistakes that we know happen in the justice
system. It is also demonstrably and objectively applied differently depending
on how rich and on what race the offender is. That is not to say that I don't
think that these criminals should be punished. Life imprisonment is a viable
humane and for those of you who care, cost effective way to deal with our worst
offenders. Liberals (at least this one) don't oppose appropriate punishment,
they often oppose irreversable and extreme punishment.
Leave it to conservatives to want to always put people to death with their Old
Testament "eye-for-an-eye" brutality.Conservatives are without a doubt the
nastiest people on God's earth.
This does not represent a softening of the penalty. The prolonged suffering of
a long stretch in prison is a more severe punishment than a quick, easy death.
The real reason crime is rampant in America is that criminals are not held
accountable for their actions. Our papers are full of stories of repeat
offenders becoming more aggressive. These people should be in jail, not on the
streets.The death penalty guarantees there will be no repeat of the
offense and helps reduce prison overcrowding. Some people should not be
allowed to EVER return to society.