Beware of FLDS enforcers, Texas told

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  • To: pigiron
    June 30, 2008 7:33 a.m.

    i have to agree with the last post. It is very different to be prego by that cute boy in gym class. These girls have haveing babies with older men. Much different.

  • pigiron
    June 25, 2008 11:06 a.m.

    To who ever posted their last post, "Can you just ignore the preg teens? At least 6, for a FACT. And 41 broken bone.." Uh...let's take a look at that shall we? That is out of over 400 kids [if it's even the truth]. Have you checked to see what the average teen pregnancy rate is in...let's say Texas? How about the average number of broken bones in children across the U. S.? They are below the average in both!! And by a lot in pregnancies. These kinds aren't just sitting around on their duffs playing Nintendo as well. Stop being so gullible.

  • outraged
    June 20, 2008 2:53 p.m.

    Grandpa Full,

    Your anger toward the CPS has you so twisted that just so you could feel vindicated you would like Willie Jessup to be sheriff??

    People like you should need psychotherapy, maybe electric shock.


  • To Grandpa
    June 20, 2008 8:01 a.m.

    This is my last post. You are biased and misinformed and no longer worth my time. Funny, you assume you know my employment status. But, then again, you assume a lot. Get over your grudge with CPS and open your eyes. Can you just ignore the preg teens? At least 6, for a FACT. And 41 broken bone.. What will you say when Warrens DNA comes back and he has fathered children with teens on that ranch? Parents should protect against him. I guess when the truth comes out you will say that CPS forced children to lie about abuse. You will support anything and believe anything against CPS and for FLDS. The supreme court (which had 2 members with enough snap to disagree) GAVE the lower court power to set up protection for these children. Why? Willie says they will no longer practice under age marrage. Why? I thought it did not happen. And, Flora is not the only ex-member. Look at some of the other stories. You and zxcv are the ones who blame everyone except the parents who are responsible. by the way, CPS does not carry guns.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 19, 2008 8:08 a.m.

    I will let zxcvbnm's comment be my last word on the subject too. I am tired of CPS trying to justify their actions. There is NO justification for the way those families and especially the children were treated. They can say it was about the kids all they like but the evidence and the court testimony showed otherwise. CPS in Texas needs a MAJOR overhaul and at least one judge needs to find another line of work. And, finally, if Willie Jessop were to be elected the new Sheriff, I would laugh until I cry. That would be the PERFECT icing to this cake in CPS's face.

  • zxcvbnm
    June 18, 2008 7:14 p.m.

    So.we have no idea what CPS tried to do, lets blame the media for reporting the CPS press releases about abuses and under age girls, broken bones, possible poisoning.....and all the other CPS authorized information.
    Lets blame MHMR for their report on the CPS treatment of the women and children.
    Lets blame the Supreme court for upholding the law.
    Lets blame everyone except CPS........oh brother....

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 18, 2008 2:37 p.m.

    Spoken like a true CPS worker or boss. You go busting into a compound with guns and an armored personnel carrier, desecrate their Temple, round up all of the children and put them on buses to take them away and you expect them to COOPERATE? Are you for REAL?

    The rest of the world is disappointed in CPS and the lower court that gave the order to separate. We are encouraged by the fact that the Appellate Court and the Supreme Court were able to look past the hype and the lies and make a good ruling based on actual Texas law. I know a lot more than what the media has put out; no one with any sense listens to them because they only put out what CPS put out. The role of the media was to throw gasoline on the fire CPS started in hopes that it would improve the story. Well, you are right in one respect, the Truth will come out. One thing I have learned about Truth - truth is like fire; it either heals or it destroys but it never, NEVER, leaves what it touches UNCHANGED. Hopefully, there will be good changes from this.

  • To Grandpa
    June 18, 2008 12:34 p.m.

    If the parents would not have lied about ages, switched children, and told their children NOT to talk, this whole thing would have been different. You have no idea what CPS "tried" to do. CPS treated them like one family because they acted like one family! You only know what the media has told you. What do you think the purpose of the romoval was? Just to break up families? Did you know that one of the 16 year ols returned has to have special protection from a 38 year old and that 5 other pg teens are there with no protection? When this is over, the truth about how the FLDS works will come out. I am so proud of texas and our CPS system. I have not lost any trust in the CPS workers. I am, however, disappointed in the courts. But that is nothing new.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 18, 2008 8:39 a.m.

    If the CPS workers you know are kind and caring people who have the families best interests at heart, then they should be the first to stand up and admonish those who abused their authority and treated those FLDS families the way they did. This incident has tarnished the reputation of them all and shown CPS to be insensitive and vindictive in their treatment of families and children. The lies that were told by a few and the cations of a few demean you all. I know it is first impulse to defend the organization, especially one not known for its tolerance of people who criticise; however, CPS as a whole bears the burden of those who acted wrongly in El Dorado. There is no defense for what they did, good intentions notwithstanding. SOmeone needs to sit down and THINK about the RIGHT way to address these allegations of abuse and then act in accordance with the laws of Texas and not contrary to them. It will take a LONG time for you to regain the trust which was abused but, a professional and OBJECTIVE approach to the problem can rebuild the trust that was lost. That's the only way.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 18, 2008 8:25 a.m.

    As for the picture of the "little girl", I never saw her face as it was blurred. Do I think it was a minor girl? Of course I do. If Jeffs is guilty of any abuse to minor girls, lynch him for all I care. The point was, CPS demonstrated that it cannot tell the difference between a minor girl and an adult female. That was a MAJOR embarrasment for CPS as they based so many of their early allegations of abuse on how many of those girls were minors. Then, holding those adult girls until their babies were born and admitting they were adults immediately afterwards demonstrates a PLAN to abuse their authority. I know how CPS works as a rule. I do not have to work with Texas agents to know what they are like; their actions at the ranch and in the stadium speak volumes regarding their attitudes. The mental health people who objectively testified of the CPS abuses were as reliable a witness as could be found. Texas CPS did not even make the slightest EFFORT to keep those families together in spite of their OBLIGATION to do so. They ripped them apart and abused them.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 18, 2008 8:13 a.m.

    You talk about those who "escaped it". When will you people realize that the so-called experts you relied on to get the "facts" about what the FLDS are REALLY like LIED to you. They have their agendas and those agendas have nothing to do with protecting those they left behind. Go to the Truthwillprevail website and read the letter written by Martha barlow Jessop entitled "The Truth About Flora Jessop". Martha was Flora's appointed guardian at ages 14-16 up until the time she ran away. Flora had reasons for saying the things she did and there was nothing honorable about any of them. My wife and I took care of many girls like Flora while we were in foster care and I fully understand what Martha and others went through with Flora. Flora lied and you people swallowed her lies hook, line, and sinker.

    The judge who mandated that parents participate in services and that CPS will have continued access is the same judge who ordered the children be taken away in the first place. Her motivations and biases are already known and her abusive and vindictive attitude belies her professionalism. She is a disgrace to her profession.

  • To Grandpa
    June 17, 2008 2:58 p.m.

    By the way, the courts are still mandating that these parents participate in services and that CPS can come at anytime to visit the children. safety measures are in place. Why would the courts decide that? Why any follow up if their was no proof of abuse? And, you saw the pics of that little girl. Can you honestly tell me you believe she is of age? Have you listened to any one who has escaped this abuse? Do we know more than those who lived it?

  • To Grandpa
    June 17, 2008 2:54 p.m.

    Please, read the Texas family Code. No Warrent needed for CPS. you are incorrect on this. I believe you are taking your bad expierence with NC CPS and assuming all Texas CPS workers are the same. The workers I know are kind, caring, and have the families best interest at heart. How many Texas CPS workers have you actually dealt with? Texas is the leader in CPS change such as developing programs to keep families together, prevent abuse, and to reunify the family. Look it up. I have.
    You blame posters for making assumptions about FLDS but you say, in reference to CPS, if it looks like a duck... Respectfully I would say to you, look in the mirror.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 17, 2008 2:29 p.m.

    That is, assuming she was a minor since it appears that no one in the Texas CPS can tell the difference between a minor and an adult. Y'all will be wearing that egg on your face for YEARS to come. There is a lot to be said for natural consequences to poor decisions. Many of us who hold our Constitutional familial rights dear, hope that Texas feels the consequences in court for the abuses they perpetrated on those families and especially the children. Judge Walthers abused her authority and should be impeached. She is a disgrace to everyone who ever sat on that bench. We are all waiting to see how the FLDS families will follow up the abuses of authority with legal action. Federal law allows for legal redress when such abuses are conducted under the color of law. 'Nuff said.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 17, 2008 2:11 p.m.

    If CPS took no evidence, where did they get the pictures of Warren jeffs and the minor girl? They never said where they came from but the answer is obvious. And, CPS DOES need a warrant.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 17, 2008 2:08 p.m.

    As for the NC CPS "just doing their job" and it wasn't their fault that someone else made a complaint, that is wrong, too. We had made a complaint against CPS abuses against the girls we were caring for. Many of them came to us and had no business being away from their homes. We know FULL WELL what the grounds are for taking a girl from her home and FAR TOO MANY were taken for reasons that DEFIED common sense. The subsequent abuses the girls went through while trying to get home again was heart-breaking to us. Whoever made the complaint against us did so with the sole intent of making us drop our complaints against CPS. No one would have benefited from that except them. We had been working with these people for 5 years and had an 87% success rate in getting girls back into their homes within 60 days. The attitudes of the women in the local Social Services (CPS) office where we had to take our infant daughter was horrible. They treated us EXACTLY the way CPS in texas treated those mothers. No, they are not different. If it looks like a duck and acts........

  • To Grandpa posted 12:00
    June 17, 2008 1:11 p.m.

    The title should be "to grandpa" not "Grandpa"

  • Grandpa
    June 17, 2008 12:00 p.m.

    NC and Texas are very different states with VERY different systems. You can't think you know how texas CPS works due to your expierences. In you case, sounds like someone made a report, it was investigated, you were found to be good parents and the state let you be. That, Grandpa, is their job. I'm truly sorry you had a false alligation. And, i'm glad there are foster parents who advocate for children. All states need more who will. It's not CPSs fault someone made a false alligation. And, why did the court allow CPS to follow up, provide services and continue investigations if there is no proof? Read what the 2 decenting judges said. And, by the way, CPS does NOT need a search warrent in Texas. and CPS took NO evidence.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 17, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    Regarding the criminal cases, what I can't wait for is the Defense attornies getting their hands on that so-called search warrant that the Sheriff and CPS used to take all that "evidence" from all of those residences. All CPS has is the fruit of the forbidden tree - tainted evidence because they abused their authority in taking "evidence" from every house when the warrant did not include every house. It will still take a court order to allow the release of that "evidence" to even be used in a criminal action. Any prosecuting attorney worth his lisense wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot cattle prod. I get the feeling that the criminal cases will dissolve like the abuse cases did - due to lack of evidence. If they find that someone did do something illegal, I will be at the front of the pack yelling for his crucifiction; however, all we have heard so far is CPS lying and allegations turning into nothing but smoke and mirrors.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 17, 2008 8:14 a.m.

    BT, I am VERY familiar with how CPS works and what they do for and TO children. My wife and I were foster parents to emergency teenage girls for 5 years in NC. In 5 years we had over two hundred teenage foster daughters. We worked with CPS on a daily basis so don't go assuming that none of us know what CPS actually does. We got so tired of watching the abuses they caused that we made a complaint regarding the unnecessary removal of some of those girls from their homes. The next thing we knew, we were being investigated for neglect of our infant daughter because "someone" complained that my wife was not producing enough breastmilk to properly nourish her. Yoou read that right. We had to take our daughter to the Dept of Social Services to get a physical on her so they would not take her away from us. The purpose of that was to intimidate us to make us shut up. We left foster care in order to protect our own children from CPS. The Supreme Court found no such proof because CPS presented NONE to the Court. The Court only allowed them to follow-up.

  • To Janet:
    June 16, 2008 12:52 p.m.

    Who was that leader who god told would never die? Let me remeber... Uncle Roy was it? How is he doing these days? Oh, he is dead? But, but.. god said.....

  • BT
    June 16, 2008 12:41 p.m.

    Here is how it works according to public opinion. if CPS does remove, they are home wreckers. If CPS does not remove, they are leaving children in danger. i would love to see public opinion if the state just left these children there. I would also love to see anyone of you actually work a case. You have no idea what these people actually do. Their lives are devoted to children and families. The decisions they make determine if a child is safe from abuse, or even if a child dies. You can sit in your ideal world and judge while some people actually have to do the real work.
    Also, just a note, the supreme court was not in aggrement on the latest decision. Also, they did find enough proof to allow the state to monitor the children on an on-going basis and to require the parents participate in services. Why do you think that is? I can't wait for the criminal cases!

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 16, 2008 7:53 a.m.

    Paul, R, and The Real Emma are my new friends. Well said, all three of you. It is nice to see real Americans finally with a good head on their shoulders who can see things for how they really are. I raised my hand a long time ago and swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. It is sad that there are domestic enemies to the Constitution but, there are also those who would defend it against such tyrannical abuses such as we have seen in Texas lately. Thank the Lord for Appellate Courts and Supreme Courts who do their jobs even when the public is against it.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 16, 2008 7:44 a.m.

    WRONG RS, You said, "When parents do not cooperate, CPS has choice but to remove the children.....". CPS had the LAW to regulate what they could and could not do and they violated Texas law in taking all of the children (and some adults) without attempting to find a less drastic alternative to removing them. CPS is required by law to FIRST seek a means of keeping the children in place (that could have been done by removing the males from the ranch) and then, of some abuse is found and removal is the only move left, they had to PROVE their case before a judge within 14 days in order to keep those children longer than 14 days. CPS made NO attempt to find a less drastic action than total removal of all children and then was unable to prove ANY abuse had been committed during the mandatory 14-day hearing. Judge Walther ruled for permanent removal in contradiction to the evidence presented at the 14 day hearing. That is what prompted the Appellate Court to overturn the order. That si what prompted the Supreme Court to uphold the Appellate Courts decision. CPS violate Texas law at every step.

  • R
    June 15, 2008 6:05 p.m.

    //Did anyone ever think about all the documentation that must be analyzed and sorted through in order to determine even what to go after?//

    So they don't know what crimes they want to go after, but they know they want to go after something.

    My prediction is that since they've got so much egg on their faces after the statutory rape nonsense didn't pan out, they'll go for the low-hanging fruit of bigamy charges to distract from their failure.

  • Emma
    June 15, 2008 2:58 p.m.

    Paul, I could not agree with you more, CPS does have a personal vendetta, that will not stop on it's own. It's truely so sad that so many innocent people had to suffer because of this, these people must file suits to really put an end to persecution.

  • Paul
    June 14, 2008 9:17 p.m.

    Emma, that's why the people must file suits to stop the persecution. It won't stop unless and until they do. That much is obvious. CPS has a personal vendetta that won't stop on its own.

  • The Real Emma
    June 14, 2008 11:48 a.m.

    Go to the hospital to have your fourth baby daughter, and look up this case, it goes on and on..DRAMA...I am glad that someone used my name earlier, because this is about what I would have said."GOSSIP"! First of all, the FLDS is a religious church, I very much doubt that they intend to harm anyone, Willie Jessop looks like my Baptist pastor, HA!, I don't think he is a horrible evil man. Watching this from Illinois, I totally get the feeling that the Sheriff, Judge, and all the State Officials in this case, are just playing their game to make false allegations against the FLDS people. I'm sure of it that these people have been hurt, children torn away, their mothers running all over the State of Texas to be able to even see them. The man who posted the Judge's home information was not even FLDS. Has anything bad happened yet? No. Bad things HAVE happened to those poor women who had no rights, guns were pointed in their faces, they and their children were called liars, forced to move from their homes? These so called officials are STILL harrassing the FLDS to cover THEIR mistakes.

  • Paul
    June 13, 2008 8:05 p.m.

    RS, we know that CPS violated these people's civil rights. We don't have to speculate. They had no right to take those kids. Don't take my word for it. Ask the Texas Supreme Court.

  • Anonymous
    June 13, 2008 7:57 p.m.


    The Texas State Supreme Court has ruled that the CPS had no justification to remove those children. They didn't rule that paperwork takes time. They ruled that the CPS grossly violated Texas law. And the Texas Third Court of Appeals ruled that the CPS's case was "legally and factually insufficient."

    WE aren't the ones speculating. The speculation is coming entirely from those of you who refuse to accept the multiple court rulings that no evidence exists.

    Beyond that, in these comments I'm reading claims of torture, rape, false imprisonment, welfare fraud, and serious gross weapons violations. (machine guns, etc) It doesn't take 2+ months to FILE charges for those offenses. When police suspect such crimes, they arrest you on the spot, even if no charges are ever filed.

    How would you define cooperation? They stood there and watched while their children were taken. Are they now criminals because they didn't offer coffee to heavily armed kidnappers? If you think kidnapping is the best way to deal with social outcasts, then you're a much bigger threat to society than any fringe religion.

    And prisoners are prisoners, whether the person holding them is a cop or a bartender.

  • RS
    June 13, 2008 7:08 p.m.

    I find it very interesting that everyone is wanting to know why there are no prosecutions yet. Did anyone ever think about all the documentation that must be analyzed and sorted through in order to determine even what to go after? It is going to be some time before an official indictment comes through because Law Enforcement has only one shot (no pun intended) to get it before the grand jury.

    So that being said, all of the speculation that is going on as to what law enforcement is doing or what CPS did is purely that, speculation because you do not know all of the details about the investigation both on the criminal and civil side.

    Would you please stop referring to CPS imprisoning the mother's and children...the agency is not law enforcement, they are civil.

    You also do not know the level of cooperation that was given or not given during the initial process.

    When parents do not cooperate, CPS has no choice but to remove the children and seek court intervention to gain cooperation, such that it is at this time.

  • jt
    June 13, 2008 3:08 p.m.

    i think noone has anything to worry about as the FLDS men are just child molesters not killers. which in my book is just as bad.

  • Anonymous
    June 13, 2008 2:39 p.m.

    They CAN'T make that evidence public. It's obviously so secret that they can't even show it to the other judges.

  • R
    June 13, 2008 7:02 a.m.

    //It is common knowledge that these girls are married off WELL before they're 18. //

    "Common knowledge" has a way of being horribly wrong. CPS hasn't produced enough evidence for any judge other than Barbara Walther to back them up. Why should anyone else buy their claims?

    And to the people (including the Texas CPS) who say or imply that there is evidence the public isn't seeing and that said evidence could be decisive: what is that evidence? This is a child welfare case, not some top-secret military project. If you have smoking guns, go public.

  • Paul
    June 13, 2008 5:16 a.m.

    I was Anonymous in the other post.

    I'll make this short. These people have been harassed for almost three months. The Texas Supreme Court ruled that the kidnapping was not justified due to the lack of evidence. Now, show me one conviction or indictment of one man at this ranch. Show me one arrest. You can *claim* that crimes took place. You can *claim* that there must be something. Your claims mean nothing without facts to back them. It's not up to the people to prove their innocence. You and the state must prove their guilt. That's how it works here. Don't like it? Move to China.

  • Paul
    June 13, 2008 5:02 a.m.

    I never said that I wasn't outraged by Jeffs. I'm sticking to the issue. These people in Texas weren't indicted or convicted of any crimes. Your suspicions don't equal evidence. I never claimed to know everything, but I know that you don't(or shouldn't) convict people without proof. It's been two to three months! Enough is enough.

  • Anonymous
    June 13, 2008 4:55 a.m.

    Predictable Critic, you don't know jack. I know that Jeffs was rightfully convicted. I'm referring to the violations of the Texas group's civil rights. Improve your reading comprehension skills. You can also give your BS speech to innocent people who have been in prison for years because they were framed or wrongfully convicted. Try telling them that you "know better".

  • Paul
    June 13, 2008 4:49 a.m.

    Get The Issues Straight, I repeat. What man from Texas has been indicted for any crime during this two-month witch hunt? They obviously have nothing.

  • Bartleby
    June 13, 2008 12:01 a.m.

    Beware the CPS Enforcers, is more like it.

    Perpetrators of Maltreatment (per 100,000 children)

    CPS: Physical abuse: 160
    Parents: 50

    CPS, Sexual Abuse: 112
    Parents: 13

    Fatalities, CPS: 6.4
    Parents: 1.5

    Source: National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN), Washington

  • re:from the creek
    June 12, 2008 11:36 p.m.

    don't you mean "up a creek"? If everything so's great about the FLDS brainwashing compounds, why is Merrill in hiding?

  • From the Creek
    June 12, 2008 9:43 p.m.

    "It is common knowledge that these girls are married off WELL before they're 18."

    Really? I can name several FLDS girls over 18 who aren't married. Some are in their early 20's.

    "So "one" is okay? How many do you think it should take before someone steps in?"

    Notice, the keyword here was "MIGHT". For all I know, you "might" have a meth lab in your basement. I don't have any proof it isn't true, so you must be guilty until you can prove to me otherwise. That seems to be the mentality of far too many people -- they want the burden of proof to be on the FLDS to prove that abuse DIDN'T happen. I am pleased to see that far more people still believe in being presumed innocent until proven guilty.

    Let's not throw away our God-given Constitution for a witch-hunt. We can't afford to let the rights of the innocent be violated just so we can catch a few "perverts." Wake up, Americans! An unpopular group or a minority has just as many rights as any other group, and we all deserve equal protection of our rights.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 9:04 p.m.

    "...ONE who MIGHT actually be underage. Considering this country's teenage motherhood rate, that's a surprisingly low number."

    So "one" is okay? How many do you think it should take before someone steps in?

    It is common knowledge that these girls are married off WELL before they're 18.

  • Exactly!
    June 12, 2008 9:01 p.m.

    "I personally believe that if a grown woman chooses to be a part of a plural marriage, its not my place to judge, but the issue of young girls being forced into marriage with much older men is just unacceptable."

    Well said.

  • R
    June 12, 2008 7:27 p.m.

    //explain the number of underage girls who were found to be pregnant or mothers themselves.//

    Simple: the people who conducted the raid were determined to find underage girls, so they pretended grown women were the teen mothers they were desperate to find.

  • What crime?
    June 12, 2008 6:05 p.m.

    If there were rapes and beatings of girls going on, why weren't the men changed with rape and assualt? NO EVIDENCE! Their crime was polygamy! Very politically incorrect for reasons of hypocrisy! How many people fornicate in this country? Is that somehow "ok", but being married to more than one spouse is immoral? FLDS committed the crime of being politically incorrect. Is your religion (or lack thereof) on the governments approval list? Waco and Ruby Ridge..who is next? Maybe you! Wake up America, this is an abuse of power like we see in Cuba,Iran or China. These kinds of things should never happen in this country. Only if we allow them to happen! Vote the bums out of office! This issue has very little to do with polygamy and much to do about freedom.

  • The udge
    June 12, 2008 5:37 p.m.

    was a threat and should be prosecuted now that all has come out
    We can not let this go un checked

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 5:19 p.m.

    "As to probable cause, I'd like to know how you can be so certain that months of investigation by local law enforcement and FBI turned up absolutely nothing."

    Because the Texas State Supreme Court ruled that they had turned up absolutely nothing.

  • Re: Re: R
    June 12, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    Those "underage girls who were found to be pregnant or mothers themselves," turned out to be mostly adults. If I remember correctly, they're down to ONE who MIGHT actually be underage. Considering this country's teenage motherhood rate, that's a surprisingly low number.

    And, once again, where are the prosecutions for these alleged crimes? Why does Texas continue to allow these rapists to walk the streets? Why do the courts continue to rule that they AREN'T rapists?

  • Re: R
    June 12, 2008 4:49 p.m.

    As to your claim that no underage wives were found in the compound in Texas... explain the number of underage girls who were found to be pregnant or mothers themselves. And why would they not comment about the fathers of those children... because that would incriminate their adult partners. And I have seen with my own eyes very young girls with their husbands (and their babies) in Utah... and as quite a large chunk of Hilldale residents were transferred to the Texas compound I'd say that the accusations are not unfounded. Gossip? I think not... I've been there and seen it.

    As to probable cause, I'd like to know how you can be so certain that months of investigation by local law enforcement and FBI turned up absolutely nothing.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 4:34 p.m.

    "The prosecutions ARE against rape."

    What prosecutions?
    There haven't even been any charges filed. None. There is not a single person living in the YFZ ranch who's been charged with ANYTHING relating to the removal of their children. All we've seen is proclamations that these people are evil. But the job of the justice system is to prosecute crimes, not to issue press releases. Yet, they've prosecuted no one.

    Additionally, will someone please give their sources for their accusations? If I'm wrong, I'd really like to know. But the accusations I'm reading here go well beyond the worst of the tabloid stories I've read. If half of what some here are saying is true, the FDLS members belong in jail. Can you offer any reasons why they're still free? Can you offer any reasons why multiple courts have ruled that they've done nothing wrong?

  • RE: stu
    June 12, 2008 4:22 p.m.

    The police are creating all of this to prove the need for law enforcement? Take a look around. In a nation running rampant with murder and violence who needs to make things up.

  • zoar
    June 12, 2008 4:17 p.m.



    I have studied the manifesto and the arguments for each side are very compelling but lead me to no definite conclusion. This has persuaded me not to join in persecuting those who believe and practice the principle of plural marriage. Peradventure, I may be going against God. Just because the LDS Church has forbidden its members from practicing polygamy, does not give us the right to revile others who believe differently. How soon we forget our own history, how the Mother Church was persecuted for its peculiar beliefs, fueled by the hate of apostates.

    I can find no place in the scriptures where the Lord tells us to persecute those who do not have the same beliefs, in fact we are admonished by Him to contend against no Church.

  • Get the facts straight
    June 12, 2008 4:17 p.m.

    Re: Get the issues straight | 1:20 a.m. June 12, 2008

    The prosecutions ARE against rape. It is not only against rape in the forced sense, but also in statutory as a very large percentage of these women are married in their early teens. The focus is on those men with underage wives... not on those involved in plural marriages with appropriately aged women. These issues haven't been as well publicized because such details wouldn't be beneficial to the image the FLDS are trying to portray. I personally believe that if a grown woman chooses to be a part of a plural marriage, its not my place to judge, but the issue of young girls being forced into marriage with much older men is just unacceptable.

  • Re: Janet | 1:03 p.m.
    June 12, 2008 3:31 p.m.

    "Wilford Woodruff was a good man, the Lord accomplished many great works through him but he did sign away his right to the Priesthood, he cannot, and neither can anyone else change the word of God even if they think it should be done away with."

    You obviously don't believe in prophets then, because a true prophet is first and foremost, a mouth-piece of the Lord.

    God can and does change His laws to suit His purposes. Even a cursory study of the scriptures is sufficient evidence to prove that God's laws have changed.

    You eat pork. People during the time of Christ were forbidden from eating pork.

    They drank wine. You are forbidden from drinking wine.

  • Warren Jeffs Confession
    June 12, 2008 3:31 p.m.

    "I saw this tape of Warren Jeffs saying this but it looked like he had to read from a paper several times while doing so, he pauses on difficult words and looks down, finishes his sentence before looking up and speaks in a monotone which indicate he may have been being coerced."

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? This is getting ridiculous. Why would the prosocution risk a false confession of that nature? It didn't matter to the case if he was a prophet or not. He forced little girls into underage marriage, resulting in their rape. This has been proven. Who cares if he's a Prophet? If I were FLDS, I would pray that he is a false Prophet.

  • Re: Paul
    June 12, 2008 3:15 p.m.

    "your statement that they must have something on these people is complete and utter nonsense."

    How would you know Paul? Lead investigator? Yeah, didn't think so. Are you so arrogant that you believe that you know everything that there is to know? Everything that has gone on in these FLDS communities? Can you not admit that *maybe* months of investigation may have uncovered some things of which you are not aware?

    Im not speaking of the going ons in Texas because I don't have any first hand knowledge of what went on inside those walls. However, the investigations in Hilldale and Colorado City unearthed enough evidence to convict Warren Jeffs of his crimes. Is it possible that this one girl was the only girl that he allowed to be raped repeatedly? Possible yes. Probable? No. Are you so sure of your statements that you'd send your own teenaged daughter to FLDS summer camp? I doubt it.

    All I am saying this that Washington County had more than enough reason to suspect POSSIBLE violence from key players in the FLDS community. Why not plan for any eventuality?

  • There wasn't probable cause
    June 12, 2008 3:02 p.m.


    "You've got to be kidding me! The tip that spawned the raid was made by a woman [Rozita Swinton, claiming to be the fictional "Sarah Barlow"] who had never been to YFZ (and was never part of the FLDS at all) against a man [Dale Barlow] who had also never set foot at YFZ. That's your "probable cause".

    That's the substance of this issue. To claim that the police had probable cause to take 400+ children and several adults based on a SINGLE phone call is ignorant. That is not probable cause and if it was I want to know the posters who are saying this so I can make a few phone calls to the police and watch as their children are taken based on my FAKE phone calls.

    A simple trace (caller ID) would have demonstrated the phone call didn't come from the YFZ Ranch and DIDN'T EVEN ORIGINATE in Texas. We know the police can pinpoint the location of a cell phone making a phone call by getting a warrant to do so and the phone company will tell them a 5 mile radius, and definately the state. There was probable cause for a phone trace.

  • Re: Very Strange
    June 12, 2008 2:56 p.m.

    It seems that the argument here, or one of the many, is that the individuals listed in DN are being "slandered and prosicuted for their religious beliefs" by goverment officials. The original document was never intended to become public knowledge. It was meant to disclose VALID information gathered by Wa. County officials after months and months of extensive investigation to Texas officials to assist in the SECURITY of their court precedings. That's it. Only a few out of the people listed were said to "possibly become violent". These assessments were made by qualified officers that were present in the original precedings in St. George. The article picked apart this many paged document and published certain parts in a way meant to cause a scandal. This is in no way the fault of the officers communicating via standard procedure.
    It only takes a couple of people to stir the pot. And even good honest people can act out of character in extreme circumstances. Why not at least be prepared?

  • No coersion
    June 12, 2008 2:49 p.m.

    There's absolutely NO PROOF, of even hint thereof, that Warren Jeffs' confession was coerced. If there had been any coercion, Nephi would have immediately run to the press about it.

  • State your sources
    June 12, 2008 2:46 p.m.

    Janet (1:03 p.m.),

    "Wiford Woodruff was never the key holder, as for Woolley being excommunicated I heard your "Prophet" declare over the radio that if Joseph Smith was still alive he would have to be excommunicated."

    I think it only fair that you provide your source for this information and the details including who the prophet was and who he was speaking to.

    "The LDS Church denies the very foundation of their existence."

    I have never heard a leader of the LDS Church deny the foundation of the LDS Church so I think it only fair that you provide your source.

    Of course you aren't a member of the academic community and don't need to be held to the same strict standards but you do need to be held to the minimum standard of stating your source when making claims of fact and are required to provide enough detail that people who read what you have said can verify its legitimacy.

  • We don't know if he was coerced
    June 12, 2008 2:34 p.m.

    Re: Janet (12:19 a.m.),

    "The FLDS followed a false prophet, John Wooley, then, and they're following a false prophet, Warren Jeffs, now."

    I don't believe either John Wooley or Warren Jeffs are prophets but you have no right to say the FLDS have followed and are following a false prophet.

    "In a visit that was videotaped Jan. 25 at the Purgatory Jail, Jeffs met with his brother Nephi. In a transcript, Jeffs dictated the following message to his followers:

    "I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet, and I have been deceived by the powers of evil..."

    I saw this tape of Warren Jeffs saying this but it looked like he had to read from a paper several times while doing so, he pauses on difficult words and looks down, finishes his sentence before looking up and speaks in a monotone which indicate he may have been being coerced.

    I don't think Jeff's is a prophet but I also think it's unfair to use what he says in state custody as an honest assessment of his belief. For all we know he could have been told that he wasn't going to eat for several days unless he did.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 2:28 p.m.

    LOL "re: Grandpa Phil", I will disregard the "everything else" comment as it depicts your frustration at not being able to discuss a subject intelligently more than it poses a criticism of me. As for this particular topic, I have a vested interest in its outcome so I have made it my business to be on top of the facts in this case. My vested interest is the same one shared by millions of other Americans, that is, IF ALL OF US ARE NOT SAFE FROM GOVERNMENT INTRUSION AND ABUSE, THEN NONE OF US ARE. I have talked to the FLDS people on the phone, I have donated to their legal fund, I have written a letter to Pres. Bush expressing my outrage at the overt lawlessness of the actions by CPS and the Texas authorities in taking those children from their parents. My wife and I worked as Foster parents in NC for 5 years and I have seen, firsthand, how the abuses of authority by CPS can destroy the lives of families and children. I fight for my children and your children and the FLDS children. People will always hate something; what is needed is people who care.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 2:25 p.m.

    To those who keep making accusations against the FDLS members:


    That body has ruled that the evidence you keep citing, doesn't exist. If you have something that will convince those judges to reverse their rulings, and save the lives of innocent children, it's your duty as human beings to make it public. If you let those children continue to get raped and beaten, you're as guilty as if you'd participated yourselves.

    Please, share your knowledge of this case with the Texas Supreme Court. You're the only ones who can avert this tragedy.

  • re:Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 1:39 p.m.

    What makes you the only authority on this subject and probably everything else??

  • Janet
    June 12, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    Wilford Woodruff was a good man, the Lord accomplished many great works through him but he did sign away his right to the Priesthood, he cannot, and neither can anyone else change the word of God even if they think it should be done away with. Go to and read about the eight hour meeting. Wiford Woodruff was never the key holder, as for Woolley being excommunicated I heard your "Prophet" declare over the radio that if Joseph Smith was still alive he would have to be excommunicated. The LDS Church denies the very foundation of their existence. That is where FUNDAMENTALIST comes in. When a man holing the Melchizedek Priesthood turns against the word of God he then becomes a Son of Perdition, I do not envy Wilford Woodruff. As for Heber J. Grant, as far as I an concerned he was an immoral man himself. That is my opinion and what I believe to be the truth. If you don't like it, I'm sorry, you'll have to lump it. I am perfectly capable of educationg myself, I can read and I have a mind of my own. Thanks for your concern, I can do nicely w/oyour enlightenment.

  • Re: Janet | 12:19 a.m.
    June 12, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    The FLDS followed a false prophet, John Wooley, then, and they're following a false prophet, Warren Jeffs, now.

    Jeffs even admitted he was a false prophet in a taped interview.

    I'm sure there are a lot of good, decent FLDS people, but, unfortunately, your leader is a child-abusing pedophile.

    In a visit that was videotaped Jan. 25 at the Purgatory Jail, Jeffs met with his brother Nephi. In a transcript, Jeffs dictated the following message to his followers:

    "I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet, and I have been deceived by the powers of evil..."

  • Very Strange
    June 12, 2008 12:45 p.m.

    For those who are blaming DN for publishing this article, I heard the same story on the news while watching t.v. during my break at work, and No I am not from Utah. Perhaps your only source for news is from DN or so it would seem.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 12:41 p.m.

    Wooley never claimed to be God's prophet. Joseph F. Smith was not in harmony with him, he was the president when Wooley was excommunicated.
    Wilford Woodruff was a prophet called of God. He never signed away any rights to the priesthood. You need to read the actual history of events and stop believing everything you are told.
    Heber J. Grant was also a prophet and from his day on the church has recognized that anyone practicing polygamy is practicing adultery. There is no authorization from God and it is just plain adultery.
    Wilford Woodruff was a good man who was able to explain the proper way to do temple work.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 12:23 p.m.

    Reply To: Cynthia | 4:06 a.m. June 12, 2008 continued...

    "He seperatd already married couples by giving the wives to other men."

    Immoral, abusive men who neglect their children and families in general, are asked to leave our society. I certainly wouldn't want to be married to one, you might. Yes their families leave them of their own free will and choice. Some families have chosen to go with the man, such as Jethro Barlow. I know his family on a more than personal basis and he treated some of his children like dirt, yet his wives chose to go with him and they seem to be happy where they are, Heaven bless them in their choice. The Prophet does recieve revelation from God about whom should marry whom and I would have it no other way. What God joins together is bound in the heavens, anything else is no good after this life. That is my own personal opinion and belief, adn many others feel the same way I do.

    What comes out of your mouth is a reflection of what is in your heart.

  • Patricia
    June 12, 2008 12:20 p.m.

    I've still not seen any comments on the infamous God Squad pickup trucks that follow people around Short Creek intending to intimidate them. I suppose they're just praying for them--yeah right! I genuinely feel sorry for the FLDS folks on these posts. They have lied and covered up so much that they just don't know the truth anymore. And I can understand why they will not comment on Warren Jeff's prison "confession"--to do so would mean that their whole belief system on which they base their lives is a lie--that's pretty scary. And I'm tired of the whole "prophet" thing--trust in God, not in people--they let you down every time.

  • Janet
    June 12, 2008 12:15 p.m.

    Reply To: Cynthia | 4:06 a.m. June 12, 2008

    For starters Carolyn was raised in Hildale Utah to my knowledge, her father is Arthur Blackmore and his home in not located in Arizona, nor was the "sect" taken over by Warren Jeffs. "She barely escaped..." in broad daylight and she had to lie to her children to get them to go with her. As soon as her oldest daughter turned 18 she returned to her father because her mother is abusive, Betty has pictures to proove it. I read books, I don't read newspapers except on-line ones, I don't watch television very often because there is to much trash in it, I have a radio, a red cell phone, a red car and some very beautiful red flowers in my garden. I am stating the facts. Claiming that children were kept in line through the torture of animals is a putrid out right lie. Warren Jeffs has never, and never will, call himself Jesus Christ. Warren Jeffs is a mortal man and has only ever called himself such.

  • sticks and stones
    June 12, 2008 11:04 a.m.

    both twist and spin and spin and spin. WHOA now i'm really gettin dizzy. there is not one shred of evidence in either the dossier or the news atricle to suggest that judge walther is in any danger. who's the real wild card? i think now texas is just trying to cover their own for when they get sued. granted there is some crimes to be dealt with regarding the flds at the yfz and hopefully pdq, but texas needs to be dealt with too for victimizing the innocents

  • R
    June 12, 2008 10:06 a.m.

    //The CPS raid was done to protect kids.//

    To protect kids from phantom dangers, they were torn from their fathers, mothers, and siblings. To protect children from phantom dangers, authorities demonstratably lied repeatedly. To rehash an earlier comment of mine:

    How? By obtaining a warrant based on a claim of abuse against someone who had never set foot at YMZ? By imprisoning them in uncomfortable, disease ridden [chickenpox, to be specific] makeshift prisons and then forcibly separating them? By pretending 37 y.o. women were teen mothers? By claiming their IDs were fake so they had an excuse to do so? That's what you call "protection"?

  • To Paul, John Lambert, et al
    June 12, 2008 9:30 a.m.

    Why isn't anyone explaining why Merrill Jessop is in hiding??

    Why aren't you outraged that Warren Jeffs has been ripping kids apart and "reassigning" families for years? How is that different from the CPS raid?

    The CPS raid was done to protect kids. Warren stealing, reassigning, and condoning rape with 12-year-olds has accomplished nothing other than hurting kids and destroying families. I'm sorry if that's a bitter pill for you to swallow. I'm all for defending kids, not defending whacked religions led by child molesters.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 9:18 a.m.

    Anyone on Porter Rockwell's hit list were considered walking corpses. Ah, I miss the good old days when men were MEN and STOOD UP for what was right by doing more than just TALK!!

  • John
    June 12, 2008 8:33 a.m.

    A little correct to thomas. The FLDS church does not have the 12. Or 12 apostles. They are just a church that sactions polygamy as part of there beliefs. They are not part of any biblical christian church. They are law breakers, who have no respect for the laws of the land or God. They present themselves as innocent. But in reality they are such a bunch of perverts who use religion as they backing. They have no history with the lords church as organized in the bible. They are no more than a group led by a known felon who is serving time.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 8:32 a.m.

    Uhm, TetonMike, you probably meant Porter Rockwell, the Marshall of Salt Lake City. He was accused once of shooting Governor Boggs and actually went to jail for it I think. Years later, out in the valley, someone asked him, "Port, did you shoot Governor Boggs?" Porter replied, "No, I didn't shoot him; he's still alive ain't he?" Excellent story. A lot of truth in it too as Porter was an excellent shot with a gun and never missed. If he were alive today, I am sure he would be the subject of someone's dossier.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 7:48 a.m.

    Uhm, "Clearhead", time to clear it again. Federal law allows for government agencies (Federal, State, and County) to be held accountable for infringement of Constitutional rights under 42 US Code 1983, if that infringement was conducted under color of law - as it was in this case. The adult women being held by CPS DID, IN FACT, show proper identification; however, CPS refused to accept it until immediately after their children were born. How convenient is that? You say there were underage girls being molested and being forced into marriage; however, CPS was unable to find more than one "possible". CPS admitted in court that they had found no evidence of abuse by either the mothers OR THE FATHERS. That is why the children are now home. I agree that Judge Walthers deserves protection; everyone in our legal system should be treated as innocent until proven guilty. That is more than she and CPS did for the FLDS parents. Sad that she brought the NEED for protection on herself by blatantly violating the rights of a lot of good people and by abusing those children. Perhaps she will get some long-term protection as a guest of the State of Texas.

  • Plato
    June 12, 2008 7:34 a.m.

    Amazing! The state of Texas violates the privacy and sanctity of peaceful citizens on a hoax warrant, then kidnaps 465 citizens and declares adults minors (one was 27 years old) and forcibly separates children from mothers without factual cause.

    The nonconfrontational FLDS people summarily forgive their tormentors and return to their homes only to be accused of threatening an out of control judge.

    These people have no history of violence whatever. When is Texas going to get a clue about constitutional imperatives that they continue to ignore and then they have the audacity to cloak their guilt with "threat paranoia."

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 7:15 a.m.

    To "A Texan", people like you are the reason why the State of Texas cannot disassociate itself from this travesty of justice. We hear people from Texas say, "Don't blame us all" ; however, when we hear comments like yours, everyone in Texas who has failed to stand against the tide of injustice bears the blame for what was allowed to happen under color of law. You sound SO MUCH like the head of CPS trying to justify what CPS did to those children. Of course CPS supports Judge Walthers; they were all in it together to destroy a group that was different. The CPS worker who testified at the hearing who stated that, while there was no evidence of abuse found, they would not be willing to return the children unless the mothers renounced their religion SPEAKS VOLUMES for CPS's true intent and focus. Judge Walthers and the CPS workers SHOULD be required to answer for their illegal actions and I hope the FLDS do follow that path. If no one else is going to hold them accountable, I hope the FLDS do.

  • TetonMike
    June 12, 2008 7:15 a.m.

    Rockwell Porter

  • R
    June 12, 2008 6:58 a.m.

    There is no violation of civil liberties for the women over age 18 being held if there was not sufficient evidence to substantiate that they were of legal age. Someone's word or a home-made ID card is insufficient.

    Home-made? The women who presented ID cards did not present "home-made" ID; they were subsequently backed up by the state of Utah verifying their IDs were real. The only reason authorities claimed their IDs were fake was to add them to their BS count of teen mothers. Who here regularly mistakes 37 year old women for teens?

  • R
    June 12, 2008 6:52 a.m.

    //I'm also waiting for people so upset about this raid to explain why CPS was wrong for doing this, yet Warren Jeffs gets a free pass for tearing apart and "reassigning" families for years? Why no outcry when this occurs?//

    Well, maybe the fact that even if Warren Jeffs had torn apart every single FLDS family in North America, the people affected would be less than half of the number of children in foster care in Texas alone. (about 26k in 2003)

  • R
    June 12, 2008 6:45 a.m.

    The "moral outrage" you speak of directed at the FLDS is not over how many wives these men have, but that they are forcing little girls into marriage and sexual relationships with grown men. We are talking girls 11, 12, 13 years old.

    Not one of which has been found among the children of YFZ. Don't be so eager to repeat rumor and gossip as fact.

    But there is no way that they would have been able to justify such a drastic move without a great deal of probable cause.

    You've got to be kidding me! The tip that spawned the raid was made by a woman [Rozita Swinton, claiming to be the fictional "Sarah Barlow"] who had never been to YFZ (and was never part of the FLDS at all) against a man [Dale Barlow] who had also never set foot at YFZ. That's your "probable cause".

  • Roger
    June 12, 2008 6:45 a.m.

    After Waco, I'm a lot more afraid of the State and Federal Government then I am of any religious group, regardless of my feelings toward that group. I don't recall any incident in our nations history, where any religious order murdered as many women and children as our government did at Waco. Lets keep things in perspective.

  • Jim
    June 12, 2008 6:35 a.m.

    I wish Texas would just secede already. I wonder if Mexico would take them back?

  • jim
    June 12, 2008 6:22 a.m.

    Great, how about the tax payers get round the clock security protection from the government and these out of control unaccountable judges with their own agendas? are we getting sick and tired of the tyranical government machine yet?

  • john smith
    June 12, 2008 6:00 a.m.

    This sounds like a government trick to save face. We done bad now we is gonna act like we is in danger so we can stand on some kinda moral ground........Oh TEXAS............ I thought I knew U bedder.

  • Wacko in Waco
    June 12, 2008 5:15 a.m.

    Hmmm, Governor's mansion destroyed by fire.

  • FLDS- enforcers?
    June 12, 2008 4:58 a.m.

    there are 706,600 Texans in prison, jail, parole or probation on any given day. In a state with 14 million adults, this means that 5% of adult Texans, or 1 out of every 20, are under some form of criminal justice supervision. The scale of what is happening in Texas is so huge, it is difficult to contrast the size of its criminal justice systems to the other states' systems it dwarfs:
    * There are more Texans under criminal justice control than the entire populations of some states, including Vermont, Wyoming and Alaska.. And working on Utah **** And they say the FLDS are a threat.... Sheeeesh!

  • Question
    June 12, 2008 4:24 a.m.

    TO: Former FLDS Wife From My Book
    What is the name of your book? Has it been published yet?

  • Cynthia
    June 12, 2008 4:06 a.m.

    Read the book "Escape" by Caroline Jessop. She was born and raised in a polygamist sect in Arizona that was taken over by Warren Jeffs. (He later moved to Texas.) She barely escaped from the sect with her eight children. She states that Jeffs outlawed books, newspapers, TVs, radios, and even the color red. She also shares that "torture" of animals was used to keep children in line. She also shares that, when he took over as "prophet," later calling himself "Jesus," he began to marry girls off at an increasingly younger age. And he separated already married couples by giving the wives to other men. This was considered normal: the prophet received "revelations" from God revealing who should marry whom.

  • Clear head
    June 12, 2008 4:03 a.m.

    Texas Family & Children's Services was within their rights by responding to the telephone call, whether a hoax or not, if they acted in good faith that the call was real when it was received. There will be no "billion dollar settlement" with the polygamists. Federal and State laws prevent deep-pocket lawsuits against government entities. There is no violation of civil liberties for the women over age 18 being held if there was not sufficient evidence to substantiate that they were of legal age. Someone's word or a home-made ID card is insufficient. There were underage girls being molested and forced into marriage. That is illegal. The Judge, FCS and law enforcement did their jobs as defined by law. They did nothing criminal. The Judge, FCS and law enforcement ALL deserve protection. To suggest that it is not needed is ridiculous. Better to spend the money to protect them than to not spend it and regret it forever. Polygamist families are bleeding the welfare system dry, as the 2nd wives and on are considered single parents. That is an abuse of the system. If you can't support your children, you shouldn't expect the state to do so.

  • klesb
    June 12, 2008 3:45 a.m.

    Wouldn't it be safer for us all if the judge was held in solitary until HER kidnapping trial?

  • predictable critic
    June 12, 2008 2:21 a.m.

    RE: Paul

    Let me remind you that the Police-style raid (rather ironic as it WAS in fact the police) that you keep bringing up did in fact happen in Texas and NOT in Utah, which is where the dossiers originated. The only adults imprisoned in Utah were both fairly tried and prosecuted by a full jury. Warren, in his own words during a visitation with his brother, admitted that he is an evil man that deserved to be punished. Sound like the confession of an innocent man to you? So as for the integrity of the Utah law enforcement, that means that your "facts" mean exactly JACK.
    As for all the innocent people imprisoned across the country... haven't you heard... they're all innocent! Go into any prison and 90% of them will tell you that they didn't do it... never mind if they were caught on tape, red handed or there were 52 eye-witnesses... it wasn't them! And to the VERY small percentage that are actually innocent, I'm sorry for them, but it really is a rarity. Go cry about the injustices of law enforcement to someone else... I know better.

  • Get the Issue Straight
    June 12, 2008 1:55 a.m.

    RE: Paul

    It is apparent who has been indicated by anyone who reads the documents. It is clearly stated those who are considered a potential threat and those who are not. The dossiers are based on accusations made in the many witness interviews conducted during the previous trial. As to why these suspicions were not brought up then, it is customary to only release the information relevant to the current trial. Just because nothing was released to the public doesn't mean that anything is unfounded. It is foolish to believe you know all of the facts. Many detectives spent intense months investigating these communities and it would be a waste of their time to make useless accusations in a document that was never meant to be publicly released.

  • Pamela
    June 12, 2008 1:52 a.m.

    I think that hiding behind religion so that grown men can have sexual relations with 13 year old girls constitutes an example of violence. I mean, can you imagine what's worse?

  • KenL214
    June 12, 2008 1:48 a.m.

    Great picture. Is this Janet Reno's little sister or what?!!

  • stu
    June 12, 2008 1:36 a.m.

    you have to ask yourself - if what the police say is untrue or at best gross exaggerations - then WHY are they doing it? One reason: talking up "crime" reinforces the "need" for police.... cops around the world do exactly the same thing... I've read such accusations thousands of times... this is standard operation procedure for police. If local politicians weren't so afraid of cops themselves, they might start to rein in all this nonsense. I'm now convinced that police should NO direct public discourse --- everything they do and say should be overseen by a citizen panel.... because the "force" will never stop their fear tactics to make themselves look better

  • Re: Get the issues straight
    June 12, 2008 1:20 a.m.

    If girls were being raped and beaten then the crime should be rape and assault and those responsible should be prosecuted. According to everything I have learned the crimes are only about polygamy laws. Why aren't other people arrested for gay marriage or fornication? Please don't missunderstand me, I do not advocate polygamy at all. Outside of rape and assault, why is it morally wrong for a person to be married to more than one partner, but somehow, it is just fine to fornicate? Sometimes it is even glorified..been to a movie lately?

  • karvictho
    June 12, 2008 1:13 a.m.

    True Separation of Church and State would put an end to lots of this baloney. Remove tax incentives for religious organizations, and put our tax money into medical care for all, education for all, and child care for all. That is what will restore America to no. 1 and keep us strong. Down with self seeking and self aggrandizing religious groups and tax dodgers, especially the corporate ones.

  • Paul
    June 12, 2008 1:01 a.m.

    Get The Issue Straight, get your facts straight. Name one man, on this Texas ranch, who has been convicted of *one* of those crimes. Name one who has even been indicted.

  • Paul
    June 12, 2008 12:53 a.m.

    To my predictable critics, get your heads out of the sand. First, I never impugned the integrity of all law enforcement. Second, your statement that they must have something on these people is complete and utter nonsense. The whole two months of persecution, lies, civil rights violations, false imprisonment of adults, gossip, innuendo, *and* (last but not least) a police-state style raid based on a hoax phone call prove that the facts are on my side. That's not to mention the Texas Supreme Court. I see the handwriting on the wall. You two statists are too blind to see. BTW, for more proof of the fallibility of the system you so blindly trust, look at all of the wrongly imprisoned people across the country. Sheep!

  • Warren Jeffs is the key holder?
    June 12, 2008 12:54 a.m.

    If Warren Jeffs is such a fountain head of God why did he himself denounce himself as a prophet and insist that instead he is an evil man who deserves to be punished. And those are words spoken from his very lips in a video taped visitation with his brother. Don't believe it? The full visitation can be seen on YouTube under the title 'Warren Jeffs Prison Video 1'. He admits it himself as his brother writes the full confession which he later tried to pass to the judge to try to worm his way out of facing punishment for the crimes that he faced. He is a child molester and a coward... a far cry from a man of God.

  • Get the issue straight...
    June 12, 2008 12:41 a.m.

    RE: Hypocrisy!

    The "moral outrage" you speak of directed at the FLDS is not over how many wives these men have, but that they are forcing little girls into marriage and sexual relationships with grown men. We are talking girls 11, 12, 13 years old. These girls are being raped on a daily basis and severely beaten if they dare protest. Is it all of them, no. But honestly even one girl having to live in such a situation is inexcusable. And the thought that some people are so wrapped up in the 'live and let live' philosophy that they would stand by and let the abuse happen to avoid any waves is nauseating. Was it extreme snatching the children away, possibly. But there is no way that they would have been able to justify such a drastic move without a great deal of probable cause. If it saves a handful of girls from a lifetime of rape I say it's worth it.
    ***You cant legislate morality but the government has legislated a legal age for marriage and no matter how you sugarcoat it, breaking the law is breaking the law.

  • Janet
    June 12, 2008 12:41 a.m.

    To: Home in Utah | 10:54 p.m. June 11, 2008

    As has been stated before, is Texas capable of determinig anyones age? The "twelve year old" standing next to U. Warren (who is six feet tall and six inches) could be as old as thirty-six. Your intelligences are lacking if you belive that.
    I believe that any marriage not preformed by the power and authority of God through his Prophet, or whomever he appoints is of no efficacy or force and will not apply after this life. I do not know what you believe and I do not ask you to believe as I do.
    You are totally off key if you think there was any weapons in that Temple, that is false. You have been misinformed. The only weapon on the YFZ ranch was a bow and arrow used for harvesting the wild animals to supply the self-supporting residents with meat.
    Say your prayers and ask God to bless you with the gift of discernment to know and understand the truth. I have, and I can testify to you that He hears and answers prayers, even in the very next breath. Thank you for your concern, Heaven bless you.

  • Gabriel
    June 12, 2008 12:39 a.m.

    I'm not religious at all and I certainly don't care about FLDS, per se - what I do care about is the status of liberty and due process in the United States of America. This so-called judge went so far beyond her authority that I would be perfectly happy to see her retire instantaneously - and I'm not exactly particular as to how. The authorities ought to be worried - they'd best keep in mind that Our 2nd Amendment is ultimately intended to keep THEM in check. If they don't want trouble, then they should operate within their limits. In the meantime, it seems as if the FLDS is the group that ought be posting guards.

  • Government approved religion
    June 12, 2008 12:29 a.m.

    The problem is, FLDS is not a government approved religion. Is yours?

  • Janet
    June 12, 2008 12:19 a.m.

    To: John Lambert | 8:05 p.m. June 11, 2008

    You asked for it bud, WilfordWoodruff signed away his rights to the Priesthood when he signed the manifesto. Joseph F. Smith was a great man because he was in harmony with God's Prophet John Wooley, he didn't do anything w/o first checking with John W. who told him if he sanctioned the manifesto the Lord would take him. JosephF. sweat bleed because he knew if he did not his blood would be on the hands of his "brethren". He sanctioned it and died shortly thereafter. The Lord arranged four years prior to the issuing of the Manifesto for the Priesthood authority to continue in administering the fullness of the Gospel, and so now the Mormon Church, which for sixty years was persecuted for the fullness of the Gospel, has become part of the world and turned persecutor itself. I have agreed with many of your comments and actually felt respect for you even though I really have no idea who you are. That respect is lessening rapidly. Warren Jeffs is the key holder, mouth piece, and fountain head of God at this time and he has the right to rule. Thanks.

  • Give me a break...
    June 12, 2008 12:19 a.m.

    RE: Paul

    Give the government conspiracy theories a break. These law enforcement officers are normal men with normal families and contrary to your beliefs don't get their rocks off by accusing innocent people. Those with probable cause to be a potential threat obviously earned the reputation in their own communities by their own actions... no one is pulling the accusations out thin air but on statements given by witnesses in the previous investigation.

    I don't know about you, but if it were me I'd want to know what I was up against, good bad or indifferent. It's called being prepared and doing your homework... not spouting out crazy conspiracy theories that come from watching too many sci-fi channel specials.

  • Re: Paul
    June 12, 2008 12:03 a.m.

    You have absolutely no idea what the investigations into the FLDS communities has founded. Do not speak as though you know all the facts. You don't. Not everything is public knowledge.

  • Paul
    June 11, 2008 11:50 p.m.

    It's government disinformation. They're testing the waters. It's part of a pattern. Soon, you'll be labelled dangerous and threatening if you quote the First Amendment. I once thought that conspiracy theories about the fast approach of Big Brother were crazy. Reality (seeing more proof each day) shows me that they weren't.

  • Bob Carnale
    June 11, 2008 11:49 p.m.

    First of all admit that those FLDS folks look real spooky with the hairdoos and dresses. There's something real disturbing here.

    Second, the CPS should go to the 3rd and 5th ward of Houston and round up every child without a Father. 50% of these children drop out of school and 50% will turn out to be murderers, thiefs, rapists etc.

    That's the real travesty here. We always nail the wrong folks. Elian, Waco, Ruby Ridge. I see the CPS getting their heals locked together just like the ATF did after Waco.... I am looking forward to the outcome i.e. parents taking control of their children again without fear...

  • Maz2331
    June 11, 2008 11:49 p.m.

    PW Hemphill Wrote:

    "Perhaps instead of looking out for FLDS assassins, Judge Walther should be looking out for US Federal Agents trying to arrest her for various civil-rights violations."

    Actually, there is a finally succinct and accurate post. The reason is that CPS held several women over the age of 18 as juviniles in custody while denying the validity of ID cards.

    Uh oh. Big mistake.

    That IS a serious "go to jail, go directly to jail, do not collect $200" mistake. It's a Federal civil rights criminal offense. And, no, "we're protecting children" won't cut it there.

    Adults can never, ever, be imprisoned like that. One day, week, or hour... it's time for the arrestor to become the arrestee.

    And all who aided and abetted need to go to.

    Oh.. and to those who bungled this whole thing...

    On behalf of the public everywhere, "Thanks for making it even HARDER to bust these people later!"

  • I agree with still waiting
    June 11, 2008 11:45 p.m.

    There is so much wrong with this community. The people believed in their prophet when he told them false teachings and persuaded young girls to marry old men and reassigned families...but when he tells them he is not a prophet, they don't believe him. These people are in trouble. So many of their posts are written by uneducated members.

  • Still waiting....
    June 11, 2008 11:09 p.m.

    ....for someone to explain where the heck Merrill Jessop is and why, if he's done nothing wrong, is in hiding?

    I'm also waiting for people so upset about this raid to explain why CPS was wrong for doing this, yet Warren Jeffs gets a free pass for tearing apart and "reassigning" families for years? Why no outcry when this occurs?

  • $$$$ what's it to you?
    June 11, 2008 11:06 p.m.

    Re: $$$$ Lynn A Parker
    What's it to you?

  • Lynn A. Parker
    June 11, 2008 10:57 p.m.

    Those individuals expressing disapproval of the Des. News article have done your research and that gives me hope that intelligent,compassionate Americans still exist. You offer a more accurate and insightful understanding of the FLDS culture; the negative and positive. As in any community and religion there are good and bad people; such is the nature of humanity. For those implying that all FLDS men are abusive and all FLDS women abused, controlled or brainwashed you lack any credibility and in fact are quite laughable. Maybe the FBI should keep an eye on those publishing such hatred. You are more menacing than any Willy Jessop or Warren Jeffs.

  • Home in Utah
    June 11, 2008 10:54 p.m.

    To Janet and other FLDS

    I read many of the FLDS posts defending their leadership and I admire your faith and loyalty. However, no one seems to want to talk about the conversation (Which can be read online) between Warren Jeffs and his brother where Warren admits that he was never a true Prophet and that God should punish him. As a result I wonder how many women and children are now involved in plural marriages as wives or "Spiritual Partners" that in fact were NEVER sanctioned by God but arranged by a false Prophet and child molester? Not a molester? Explain the picture of his bride (13 years old) on their 1st anniversary. If my math is correct that would have made her 12 when she married the dubious Prophet. Also, no one wants to admit to or acknowledge the cache of weapons found in the Temple in Texas. What would such a peaceful people need with automatic weapons?

  • AWJW
    June 11, 2008 10:28 p.m.

    Everything about this religion is disturbing and scary. I would totally get protection too!!

  • M Lee
    June 11, 2008 10:22 p.m.

    If there were any constitutional fanatics left in this country, she'd have to beware of them, too.

  • Citizen Tom
    June 11, 2008 10:09 p.m.

    Why has the judge not been arrested and jailed for her crimes? Why is she still a member of the Bar?People, WAKE UP!!!!!

  • Theres a first time for evrythng
    June 11, 2008 9:49 p.m.

    Wake up people. No one ever does anything until it's too late.

  • PW Hemphill
    June 11, 2008 9:42 p.m.

    Texas is now trying to play The Victim card. Perhaps instead of looking out for FLDS assassins, Judge Walther should be looking out for US Federal Agents trying to arrest her for various civil-rights violations. The Texas judicial system should have prosecuted the men who committed any rape or child endangerment laws, however, that of course, would have invoked the use of the four letter word:
    W O R K! How much easier to play storm troopers and kidnap children. If the British had performed this act at the dawn of our republic, we would have witnessed more than a Tea Party.

  • Common Sense
    June 11, 2008 9:38 p.m.

    No one has any idea what details these investigators have discovered. They know much more about the FLDS community in relation to this case than anyone of us.

    The dossiers were written as a routine communication between law enforcement agencies. The officals that wrote that document did so with the intent to share all information discovered during investigation with other law enforcement officers. How could any of you know what these investigators saw and heard during their extensive investigations?

    Anything could happen at any time without warning. If the dossiers hadn't been written and there was a revolt of some kind, everyone would say "Why weren't they aware! Why weren't they ready?"

    Plan for the worst. Hope for the best.

    We should really be blaming Deseret News for printing a private law enforcement document.

  • not happy
    June 11, 2008 9:34 p.m.

    This incompetent/corrupt child grabbing judge needs round the clock police observation..I agree. Only thing is, it should be in the prison where shes serving her sentence for violating the civil rights of about 500 people, who got their kids stolen becasue they act funny and dont look the same as the judge would like them to.

    Pretty sure that been banned sometime in the past 150 years or so. Now these texas state civil rights losers are left to make up fear tales about being hunted by `enforcers`.. maybe the FLDS will show up in their oxen drawn cart (with rims) towing a two ton rock cantapult?

    This judge needs to be in JAIL.

  • Bill
    June 11, 2008 9:28 p.m.

    Heaven forbid! All you moralists out there - "polygamy is immoral", etc... Fools, all of you.

    Gays can get married in California, but three (or more) people can't in Texas? Uh, is there something wrong here? (Yes)


  • Ibredd
    June 11, 2008 9:25 p.m.

    These people have a clear shot at a billion dollar settlement, so it seems unlikely they will cloud it. However the state has ever reason to continue to put these people in bad light.

  • Larry
    June 11, 2008 9:24 p.m.

    When will all those guv'ment lovers among you pull your heads from the sand? You fools are the same kind of folks who turned their backs, hid, and ran when 6 million Jews were killed in WWII. You will be the first to denounce your neighbor when the guv'ment comes knocking. Chickens, weasels, welfare-statists, wimps - all of you. When the revolution comes, as it inevitably will, you will be the cannon fodder the guv'ment throws under the wheels first. Morons. You make me nauseous.

  • heaven forbid!
    June 11, 2008 9:13 p.m.

    Polygamy is immoral, it's immoral to use god for their evil practices. The FLDS people don't seem to think or realize that they can as well transmit sexual diseases to one another, as well as inbred diseases. It's all a cesspool in the making.

  • Donald
    June 11, 2008 9:10 p.m.

    Well, I guess next term "Mean Mugging" people will be a crime in Texas. Then we can get all of these mean looking cops, old mad women, and liberals off the streets.

  • Hypocrisy!
    June 11, 2008 9:01 p.m.

    There is so much "moral outrage" against these people! Where is the moral ourtage against people who have children out of wedlock? 70% of children born in some of our cities are to single parents. Why is that "ok" but wrong if children are born in three parent families? Who are the greater offenders of morality?

  • To RS 4:50 am
    June 11, 2008 8:56 p.m.

    I support you RS. At least there is a couple of us that hasent lost our sanity.

    Evil is as Evil does.

    Evidence of evil, warren jeffs guilty of crimes against children.

    People please get your heads out of the behinds of the FDLS & see them for what they truly are.

    Child molesters and rapists

  • jhb2
    June 11, 2008 8:30 p.m.

    I hope the FLDS's break the Texas bank in suing the pants off of every official who had anything to do with trumping up this bogus case against their sect. Hit 'em where it hurts; in the wallet.

  • Just an American
    June 11, 2008 8:20 p.m.

    Isn't it interesting that these people haven't been convicted of anything? Yet, the government is free to spread unproven nonsense at will. My question is 'What's really behind this?' What is it Texas is really trying to do?

    Beware Texans, Catholics or Baptists my be next...

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 8:17 p.m.

    TO ME,
    You have not looked into stuff very much. First off, at leas one place they said Washington County was in Utah. Secondly, it would not take much effort to learn that Washington County is in Utah, the home of St. George and the fastest gorwing county in the state.

  • Me
    June 11, 2008 8:09 p.m.

    Umm, some people can't read. This newspaper, under the Freedom of Information acts, obtained an email *from* Washington County (Arizona I assume) sent *to* Texas.

    Texas responded by giving the judge and others extra protection.

    Texas did not generate the names and allegations on the email. Nor did they release it as a press release or news story. They released the email to this paper as the law required under the the FoI acts. The paper chose to do a story based on the email.

  • Ing
    June 11, 2008 8:08 p.m.

    The circus just keeps on going, doesn't it. At this point, the Texas CPS and all the law enforcement people involved in this thing have pretty much zero credibility.

    This police dossier sounds a lot like the CPS' lame court arguments--a lot of speculation and opinion with almost no factual basis.

    If it's just law enforcement speculating in order to cover every possible contingency in preventing possible attacks from crackpots, that's one thing.

    If it gets perpetuated as evidence that the FLDS have violence in mind--and it seems to already be morphing into its own self-evident truth--then there's a problem.

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 8:05 p.m.

    To Janet,
    Yes revelation came from God to his prophet. It came to his prophet Wilford Woodruff and his prophet Joseph F. Smith. You and all the rest of the FLDS have rejected the words of God's prophets.

  • Karen
    June 11, 2008 8:03 p.m.

    Reply To: Reply to Karen | 7:35 p.m. June 11, 2008

    All what money? Did I say my brother got paid money? Our motto is "love to bless and serve" do you have to get paid money to work hard, have you ever concidered giving of yourself to bless somone else. Most of teh Texas legal aid are volunteering their time to help those among the FLDS who are "just above the poverty line". Oh, by the way I don't smoke and I don't want to know what "sticks in my craw" means. Heaven bless you!

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 8:01 p.m.

    We are also a society of elections, and citizen participation.
    Is it illegal to draw up an impeachment document against a judge?
    I do not care what party Walther is part of, she is incompetent and needs to be removed. Anyway, the Republicans have a long history of organizing religious persecutions. Just look at what happened in Utah in the 1880s.

  • Janet
    June 11, 2008 7:57 p.m.

    To: Rich | 7:24 p.m. June 11, 2008

    Just for the record we do not call ourselves polygamists, you do. I am not above the laws of the land nor the laws of God but the laws of God do come first, read the account of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Bible if that confuses you. Furthermore, we do not recieve revelations concerning any judge. Revelation comes from God to His Prophet and he teaches us to "send the humility of forgiveness ahead of us". I have not been decieved by anyone. The eyes of my maker are upon me, I will honor God as I believe.

  • Bill
    June 11, 2008 7:54 p.m.

    It is a fantasy to think there will be any successful lawsuits against CPS.

    Courts grant organizations such as CPS enormous leeway, and CPS is fully complying with the appellate court.

    And CPS isn't going anywhere - the court rulings allow CPS to have unrestricted followups for the next several years with the children released from CPS custody.

    Like it or not, CPS will be monitoring *all* the FLDS children for the forseeable future (yes, that includes unannounced visits to YFZ)

  • Reply to Karen
    June 11, 2008 7:35 p.m.

    "You little twinky! My brother lives at the YFZ and he pulls 72 hour shifts. They work extremely hard to be self-sufficient and they DO NOT rely on welfare or foodstamps, keep your frump to yourself. It's your problem if it makes you upset that people take wasteland out in the boonies and turn it into a beautiful thriving community. You need to get a clue!"

    If they have all this money then why in the devil did the women get attorney through legal aid? That sticks in my craw because there are other hard working people who need attorneys and cannot get them because they make too much money and are living just above the poverty line.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 7:28 p.m.

    Walthers and Perry face high crimes of genocide against the religion so there is a full court press on now as there has been from the beginning. Counts besides genocide include false imprisonment of adults while leading the media on that they are children. It goes beyond the YFZ ranch. Carolyn Jessop, the author of the book that peaked on a couple of days BEFORE the raid on YFZ, is also part of stealing the UEP Trust from the FLDS which has about 300 million dollars in land. It is genocide against people who have been persecuted for decades now. Utah, Arizona and Texas are all trying their hand at getting rid of them. But the attacks are against US and International law.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    CPS is not a criminal investigation / police unit, it is civil agency.

  • Rich
    June 11, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    On these very pages, I have read many comments by FLDS members who wrote threatening things about the judge. I would be plenty worried about some FLDS nut coming after me if I were the judge. The FLDS consider themselves above the law because they rationalize that they are following a higher law when they commit the felony of polygamy. Therefore, it's easy to see one of them thinking he or she is getting a revelation to dispose of the evil judge who ordered the removal of the FLDS children. Some of the polygnists, as they like to call themselves, rationalized openly that because of certain Bible passages they are justified in marrying and having sex with a girl as long as she has reached sexual maturity. I view this religion as a sick and evil cult, whose well-meaning members have been deceived by men who justify their actions by saying they are called of God and receive revelations from God.

  • Whatev
    June 11, 2008 7:21 p.m.

    So now that the Texas Justice dept and Child Services have egg on their faces, they have to try and make up some new story. C'mon people, I don't agree with the polygs one bit, but this is facism at best.

  • Grand Old Marxist Party (GOMP)
    June 11, 2008 7:20 p.m.


    "All the Marxists that attempted to disrupt the lives of so many should be fired. The Judge, Sheriff, and their quisling comrades at CPS should be imprisoned, tried for treason, and punished to the full extent of the law they dishonored. Only a Marxist, or a spiteful woman, could create such a scenario."

    I have no problem with you calling Republicans Marxists since that is exactly what they are.

  • A Texan
    June 11, 2008 7:12 p.m.

    I completely support Judge Walther. Girls raised in that compound are in danger of being sexually abused at a young age. They are being raised with that in mind. Their parents' "consent" to sham marriages does not change the fact that young girls are being indoctrinated to become willing victims of child sexual abuse. The Court of Appeals ruling that the compound is not a single domicile is a matter of opinion--Judge Walther believed it was and I certainly believe it is. Judge Walther is a conservative and a Republican. The only other woman to rule in the matter--Judge Harriet O"Neill joined two other Supreme Court Justices in a dissent saying that pubescent girls should remain in state custody. This is not a question of the state sticking it's nose into sexual activities between consenting adults. Children are being exploited in Texas, and shame on those who are looking the other way. Further, we are noting if not a society of laws--threatening a judge is a serious matter, and I hope those who have done it are locked up for many years.

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 6:57 p.m.

    One more thing Krakauer said. He claims that at BYU no one ever walks on the grass, people always stick totally to the sidewalks.
    I do not seem to remember this having been the case, but it has been almost four years since I was last there, and so I was wondering if anyone could comment on this issue who had a clearer memory of how often people walk on the grass at BYU.

  • David
    June 11, 2008 6:56 p.m.

    All the Marxists that attempted to disrupt the lives of so many should be fired. The Judge, Sheriff, and their quisling comrades at CPS should be imprisoned, tried for treason, and punished to the full extent of the law they dishonored. Only a Marxist, or a spiteful woman, could create such a scenario.

  • KC
    June 11, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    So let me see if I have this straight. If you're high up in the hierarchy, you're an extreme threat because you're part of the system. If you're low in the hierarchy, you're an extreme threat because 'what might you do to move up'?

    I call BS. This dossier sounds like it was just made up as they went along. It sounds exactly like the propaganda smear job used against the Branch Dividians.

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 6:53 p.m.

    "Under The Banner of Heaven" is a seriously flawed book. Anyway, the Laffertys were never part of the FLDS movement.
    Among other things Krakauer claims the LDS Church has an official position against inter-racial marriage, I think most specifically Black men marrying white women. Since I have known at least four couples that fit that description who got married in the temple, if you look back over Mormon Times you can find articles on two more couples of that type who got married in the temple, including the Chair of the Department of Religios Education at BYU-Hawaii, and this is ignoring at least four other sealed couples I know where the wife was black, Krakauer's statements are clearly false.
    His book is basically hate liturature aginst the LDS Church though his attempts to link it to the Polygamous movement, and not much better in his attempts to link the relatively mainstream elements within polygamy with Lafferty.
    Krakauer's book is full of inacuracies from beganing to end.

  • Justthefactsmaam
    June 11, 2008 6:49 p.m.

    So let me get this straight. The members of the FLDS church wantonly break the law by practicing polygamy (yes spiritual partners count), actively support the marriage and adult relationships of female minors, have no problem with first and second cousins having children together.
    Bill, obviously you need to get a lot of things straight.

    1) co-habitation is legal in the USA. That's all this is. Real bigamy is 2 or more marriage licenses. Whether the partners are called baby-mamas or wives, doesn't matter. Co-habitation is legal in the USA.

    2) Although it's disputed at the moment, there actually turned out to be, once all of the 18 to 27 year old to 36 year old (almost 37) 'minors' were weeded out, either

    1 or 0

    minors that had ever been pregnant.


    3) It's legal in 19 states to marry one's first cousin in the USA, including California and New York. That's because marrying your first AND second cousins (and 3rd cousins, etc) isn't prohibited in the Bible's incest laws in Leviticus.



  • deroy
    June 11, 2008 6:46 p.m.

    the judge needs to be jailed pending an investigation. her stupid and unlawful actions could have caused a repeat of the JANET RENO inspired WACO state sponsored murders.

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 6:46 p.m.

    To "Obvious",
    Statutory rape is not an act of violence. You can not have your cake an eat it to. If the girls are all brainwashed into doing exactly what the men want, as the FLDS-bashers keep claiming, than there is no violence involved.
    It does appear that in Ms. Walls case there was truly violent rape. However, there is no evidence that there was non-statutory rape, that is to say rape that would exist if we held that females 12 years and over could give consent. I think that statutory rape laws are good, and I am no supporter of this practice in any form. However, are you trying to tell me that the alleged 12-year-old making out in the pictures with Warren Jeffs is being physically forced to particepate?
    You are mixing terms. Statutory rape is not inherently violent, and the victims do not always feel violated. This is one of the reasons it is so hard to prosecute.

  • Janet
    June 11, 2008 6:35 p.m.

    To: Re: Janet | 2:30 p.m. June 11, 2008

    Yes they do more for the girls and mothers who choose to leave, they help them find an apartment or rent them a house and supply them with means to take care of themselves until they can find a job, some father's even give them a car. Then they continue to pray for them.
    I have several members of my family who have chosen to live differntly, we call them on their birthdays and once in a while they come and visit us, and their always in my prayers adn I believe they're in the prayers of other family members also. I still love them. There is a reason why Carolyn left in broad daylight and her daughter Betty returned as soon as she was eihteen. If Carolyn had asked to leave, you can bet Merrill would have tried to discourage her from doing so, he loves his family as well as anyone, and when he saw she was determined he would have helped her and she knew it. If you don't want to go to work you have to right a sensational book for means. Thanks for the concern though.

  • White Pages
    June 11, 2008 6:13 p.m.

    Hm. I just checked the white pages in Texas online. Judge Barbara Walther in San Angelo surely is listed, with her home address and phone number.

    This does not surprise me. A "simple country judge", as she has called herself, hardly has any reason to not be listed in the phone book. I'm sure she knows many citizens in San Angelo by first name. Smallish towns are like that.

    I would provide a direct link to the white page listing online, but for fearing of being called a terrorist and put under surveillance by armed Texas thugs, I will leave y'all to your own ability to look things up in public phone books and verify this for yourself.

  • Justthefactsmaam
    June 11, 2008 5:52 p.m.

    I'm the grandson of a Pentecostal preacher; not FLDS, nor LDS, nor ever have I been.

    That being said, this is just the ravings of KKK lunatics in sparsely populated West Texas; about as sparsely populated as SIBERIA.

    Schleicher County (where El Dorado and the YFZ ranch is) has 2,935 people in it spread out over a WHOPPING 1,311 miles. See Wikipedia.

    That's a MICROSCOPIC 2.2 people per SQUARE MILE! Even the cows must get lonely! People must get WORN OUT just from wandering around aimlessly futilely TRYING to find OTHER PEOPLE in the county! No wonder they are such busy bodies living in such a hell hole.

    And by HELLHOLE, *mean* HELLhole.

    Guess what my research discovered?

    San Angelos the WORLD HQ for at least TWO (2) KKK national organizations!

    The Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.


    The Traditional Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.

    Google both. You'll EASILY find their sites.

    Truth is stranger than fiction. I believe these Texas "authorities" are members and/or sympathizers. And when you look at their rally pics, it looks to me like a lot of these KKKers are COP types. And KKK = NAZI sympathizer. Period.

  • Zeb
    June 11, 2008 5:51 p.m.

    The government raids these people's homes without any evidence whatsoever, kidnaps their children, and then DARES to suggest that people who have the righteous nerve and fortitude to question the same tyranical, unlawful government for this are the ones who are "dangerous."

    Yea, maybe the government is afraid that one of these peaceful people might raid the judge's home or something, like SHE did to them.

    Ahem. Hello?

    This just further proves how convoluted and evil our government has become.

    The people of this country have every right to know where evil, unconstitutional judges like this live, so that the people can keep an eye on such tyrants should they happen to move in next door or something.

    It's good that the government fears the people every now and then, IMO. There would be no hope for any civilization if a government didn't. Maybe this corrupt judge will think twice the next time before she raids innocent Americans' houses again and kidnaps their children away from them.

    June 11, 2008 5:52 p.m.

    When are they going to find this ''fake''girl who started this whole thing..there never was one!!!!
    This is a government insider job...unless a 10 million dollar reward is offered for someone to come forward and leak out some info.we'll never know.

    Those people did nothing wrong....let Washington DC
    clean up all their'll take at least 20-30 years to rid us of all of them,starting with the white house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  • Flyboy
    June 11, 2008 5:47 p.m.

    Having failed in their outrageous attempt to trample on the rights of the parents in the case, the State of Texas is now trying to create a climate where they can blame any isolated act of violence performed by anyone in the name of the FLDS as a reason to make mass arrests in the name of preventing what they will call "terrorist violence." If this were not the State doing this, we'd be talking about incitement to riot and unlawful detaining. But it is the state, and this is frightening.

  • Timothy
    June 11, 2008 5:46 p.m.

    Re: Former FLDS wife from my book,
    You did the right thing. God bless you for speaking up to these awful men who endorse having sex slaves.

  • David
    June 11, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    Oh I dunno. If somebody kidnapped my kids right out of my home and I KNEW that there was no abuse or molestation, I'd probably be pretty damn mad. What you've got is the State KIDNAPPING CHILDREN without a shred of evidence of wrongdoing in 95% of those families.

    I pray that CPS and everything attached to it gets sued so hard and deep that it collapses.

  • The_Lone_Rider
    June 11, 2008 5:38 p.m.

    What they see down the road is "Sheriff Willie Jessop" and that is what really scares them. hahahaha
    Way to go Bill Medvecky!!! Keep stirring the pot. Keep this story in the headlines. Walther's phone number should be part of the record and the people should have the right to call her and tell her just what a lousy judge she is. She should be impeached, tried, and if convicted suffer the same punishment of anyone that attempts genocide.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    It's not the religious members that are nuts by the sounds of it.

    The judge needs to grow up.

  • Randolph
    June 11, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    Question is, when will charges be brought against the judge for overstepping the bounds of the law? Ordinary citizens have much more to fear from a judge like that, who spurns the constraints of the law, than from cultists having a non-traditional family structure.

  • David
    June 11, 2008 5:33 p.m.

    Mzzz Stupid Judge deserves what ever happens to her.
    She should be impeached, Taken to court and jailed for ordering the kidnapping of all thoughs children.
    If there are some enforcers looking for her,,,, good luck to them.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 5:28 p.m.

    Bill said:

    "So let me get this straight. The members of the FLDS church wantonly break the law by practicing polygamy (yes spiritual partners count), actively support the marriage and adult relationships of female minors, have no problem with first and second cousins having children together."

    If it's such an open and shut case, it should be pretty easy to arrest them. But they've had 2 1/2 months, and they haven't filed a single charge.

  • Former FLDS wife from my book
    June 11, 2008 5:27 p.m.

    When my husband refused to provide a home that was separate from the rest of his family, I took it upon myself to obtain that home for my children and myself. Two days after I left my husband's home I was forcefully abducted by three of his older boys. For one-and-a-half days I was locked in my room. My husband tried every method of persuasion to get me to come back to his home, but I refused. Though it was not my intention to leave my husband, I could not bring myself to continue our relationship after the abusive way that he treated me while I was held captive.

    After the abduction, the threats of "blood atonement" execution, and our "prophet's" counseling session, I could no longer continue to share my life and children with my husband. I left my husband after that meeting and when he heard from me again he had to listen me. In the courtrooms of the State of Utah, I obtained legal custody of five boys.

  • FLDS Mother at 4:21
    June 11, 2008 5:04 p.m.

    Can't argue with you on any of that--I did the same with my 9 kids. Most of them have made wise choices--and when they didn't, well, there sure are consequences. You hate to see them pay them, but that, unfortunately, is how we all learn.
    By the way, I'm not FLDS, don't live in Utah, but I went to high school with some Short Creek kids--sat with one of them at a high school reunion about 10 years ago.
    There are enough ex-members of my faith who tell lurid tales that I always take any ex-member of anything with a little grain of salt.
    If we are all being honest, we will probably admit that there are, unfortunately, a few people in every group who fail to live by the principles they claim to believe. But we need to look into our own hearts and judge and correct ourselves. God will take care of the rest, I do believe.

  • Bill
    June 11, 2008 5:00 p.m.

    So let me get this straight. The members of the FLDS church wantonly break the law by practicing polygamy (yes spiritual partners count), actively support the marriage and adult relationships of female minors, have no problem with first and second cousins having children together. And they are the victims? Dont make me sick! If from infancy you were told that you should never give a truthful answer to a police officer (and dont worry in our religion it isnt wrong to lie to outsiders) you would look the world in the eye and say you were totally innocent too. Yes, all of their children should have been taken away. If I tried to marry my daughter off at the age of 14 to a cousin in the name of religion Id be tossed in the slammer. Why not these people? The true victimes here are the children who are now going to be forced to re-enter this state of mental bondage and brainwashing.

  • Auntie Mem
    June 11, 2008 4:55 p.m.

    Wow!! Coincidence!! I just started reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer. GET THE BOOK!! It documents the underhandedness, deception and sexual perversion of the FLDS. Everything these people base their spiritual foundation on is a lie from the pit of hell, and revolves around sexual molestation and pedophilia. It's SAD BUT TRUE. I first felt sorry for the children and mothers, but now think it would be best for all of the children to be adopted, so that they would not end up being molested. Which is what will happen, if they are female. Just read the book (Published 2003).

  • PC Propaganda
    June 11, 2008 4:52 p.m.

    The state of Texas has revealed a glimpse of the coming socialist/fascist gestapo who seize people and property without due process "for your own good" aided and abbetted by the shamefully biased politically correct media. I've said it before and I say it again: shame on Texas and especially their "social" services CPS -- paid for by your hard-earned taxes. The revolution against political correctness will not be televised.

  • Bill Draper
    June 11, 2008 4:49 p.m.

    Inside or outside the group, here are facts.
    The FLDS are very hardworking....even to the point all the kids had paper routes, but they also accepted welfare and when building they keep one side of the house unfinished so that they do not have to start paying taxes.
    Most men are very hardworking, the kids are taught how to work and be respectful...but They do not tolerate anyone leaving the group....they may drive some off...but any woman that tries to leave....hell hath no fury than the leaders of the group scorned.
    There are tons of Polygs around, in all walks of life.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    Jackson had the best point. The men whose children were kidnapped have already shown that they're not willing to fight. What the judge should be worried about is those of us who are getting really tired of a government that does whatever it wants, whenever it wants, for any, or no, reason.

    Remember, after all the allegations we've heard, there still have been NO charges filed. Zero. None. After 2 1/2 months. I could understand no convictions yet. But no charges? And that judge's superiors ruled that there was no evidence what so ever, as did the Texas Supreme Court. No charges, no arrests, and multiple courts insisting that Walther, not the FLDS members, was out of line. At some point in a witch hunt, we need to both define what a witch is, and give some reason to believe the person we're hunting may be one. So far, after ample opportunity, the Texas CPS has yet to do either. I believe the appropriate phrase is, "Put up, or shut up."

  • Anthony
    June 11, 2008 4:43 p.m.

    In my opinion this Judge should have her home address and phone number publicly displayed and she should be ridiculed for the ruling she made as an example to anyone in Government who dare lay their dirty little filthy fingers on your children.

    Wake Up America.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 4:36 p.m.

    Re: Karma
    Good karma, I totally agree with you. I have myself, often used the same words.

    D.News- this is a pretty nice article.

  • FLDS Mother
    June 11, 2008 4:33 p.m.

    re - Janet

    Thats rude! You have NO idea!! Just media and ex-members lies!
    We DO pray for those that leave. Would you stop praying for someone that was rebellious to your religion? If you would, your not a very good person. ALL of us should be praying for each other. If we profess to be followers of Christ, in any religion, we would pray for all, even those who are our enemy.

    We pray for them, that their hearts will be softened. And then let God be the judge. What he will do to the wicked (read the scriptures) is so horrible, We would never want that to happen to anyone.

    "Judge not that ye be not judged."

  • tommy john
    June 11, 2008 4:28 p.m.

    Goes round comes round. Were those children abused by the authorities?

  • Foxy Wizard
    June 11, 2008 4:28 p.m.

    More baloney from the State of Texas.

  • BobP
    June 11, 2008 4:27 p.m.

    This "beware" is simply defelection. A poor us, we are in danger scam. It lets them save a little face and nothing else.

  • StingRay
    June 11, 2008 4:24 p.m.

    No, Evril LeBaron's thugs had nothing to do with this group.

  • FLDS Mother
    June 11, 2008 4:21 p.m.

    Re: FLDS Mother

    Well, I do teach my children that they have the right to make their own choices. That seems to be my biggest subject. "Its all your choice, but remember, there is a consequence in every choice you make, whether it good or bad"
    -who they want to be
    One wants to be a nurse, I'm behind her all the way. I even let her "doctor" up all the minor wounds. Two want to be Police officers, I'm behind them as well. Another wants to be a mother..I'm behind her all the way.(Only when she's of age.)
    -who they want to marry
    They want to marry who God wants them to. But if they chose different, how can I change their minds. Its their life.
    -what education they want
    My oldest daughter,14 yrs. wants to go to high school. She will start in the fall. Her choice. I'm behind her in that choice.
    -what occupation they want
    read-who they want to be
    -where they want to live
    They can live where ever they want. I never heard that one.
    Who's "Brainwashed" Those who believe Flora, Carolyn, Elissa, Kathy, ect.

  • rcj
    June 11, 2008 4:19 p.m.

    The judge needs protection because there was no evidence and the whole raid was illegal. So naturally the people impacted are going to be mad. One of them may do something equally stupid and retaliate.

    I can't say I blame them, exactly who is being held to account for this illegal raid? Anyone get fired? Suspended? A stern talking to... Is there any accountability at all? If I make an annonymous phone call reporting child abuse or rape at the local school would it be raided or would a more rational approach be taken before hundreds of kids are rounded up? Why was this situation treated differently?

  • Not a popular post
    June 11, 2008 4:19 p.m.

    This is not going to be a popular post, but for FLDS Mother, here goes:

    You are facing the same issues that many, many other parents face outside your faith. You believe strongly that certain things have eternal verity. You want desperately to teach these things to your children. So do many of us. And we also struggle with a culture that tells us that our beliefs are wrong and that we should not be teaching our values to our children.

    But I believe that most caring parents really do want(however unbiased they wish to appear to others)
    desperately for their children to follow the things they hold most dear.

    There is such a fine line between teaching our children correct principles and allowing them to govern themselves (that's Joseph Smith) and trying too hard to make sure that they don't make choices that we believe to be eternally wrong and/or dangerous.

    People often think those of differing beliefs are obsessed or nuts--I still remember questioning my Amish friend Katy's worry about her son's "english" pants and her not noticing that her daughter was inappropriately involved with her boyfriend.

    Closely held beliefs always look odd to outsiders--of whatever faith.

  • karma
    June 11, 2008 4:08 p.m.

    what's good for the goose is good for the gander

  • GAL50
    June 11, 2008 4:00 p.m.

    Any judge who orders the removal of 450 children belonging to any group of people should have protection. Look at all of the nut case men who lose custody and shoot and kill their ex-wives and all of their children. Losing children is emotionally devastating to any parent and plenty of parents have a screw loose.

    This case is so huge, that it affects people outside the FLDS. Even if the FLDS were not threatening, there could still be crazies who relate to this case who could be threatening.

    Barack Obama who is merely running for U.S. President and hasn't done anything like separating parents and children had to ask for Secret Service coverage early in his campaign because of threats to his life.

    So, it makes sense to provide the judge with protection.

  • re - Janet
    June 11, 2008 3:59 p.m.

    the FLDS does NOT pray for those that leave. They prey on them. Perhaps you misspelled?

  • Bill Draper
    June 11, 2008 3:59 p.m.

    It would be interesting to hear from the Women and the kids that have left the group to really find out if there is an enforcer group within the FLDS group.
    The women and kids that I know that have left were intimidated, and threatened.
    Texas was wrong but these folks are not innocent and pure by any means.
    The FLDS deserve to be defended by a legal firm.
    But lets not put our collective heads in the sand and look the other way.
    I thought Willie the thug was a pretty funny tag, and from what I have seen of him, it fits.
    He is no Leroy Johnson.

  • Rational J
    June 11, 2008 3:58 p.m.

    Isn't similar, or worse, types of family and child abuse very, very common, even sanctioned in Muslim culture, even U.S. Muslim families (imprisonment, abuse, "honor" beatings and killings, arranged child marriage, etc)?

    If so, where are the arrests and siezures of kids?


  • Searcher
    June 11, 2008 3:57 p.m.

    This smells of a publicity stunt to garner sympathy for the judge who doesn't know or understand the law, and for the cruddy CPS group whose negligence started the entire episode in mishandling a potential problem.

  • realitycheck
    June 11, 2008 3:57 p.m.

    These people are religious fanatics, and have already killed in the name of their religion. What makes you think they wouldn't do it again?

    And they operate a little slave-center, denying most of their followers basic rights and freedoms. How could any of you actually trust them?

  • Re: FLDS Mother
    June 11, 2008 3:55 p.m.

    "Now could you please explain what I'm suppose to think.... I don't know ... "

    You're supposed to teach your children that they have the right to make their own choices in life:

    -who they want to be
    -who they want to marry
    -what education they want
    -what occupation they want
    -where they want to live

  • but momma says
    June 11, 2008 3:55 p.m.

    a felony is a felony...if they can't follow the law what makes one think they are going to follow any other law?

  • Missourimule
    June 11, 2008 3:32 p.m.

    It's so easy and so commonplace to throw out the title of "religious fanatic" - it's just a conversation stopper, and no one is supposed to question whether it's right or not -- but aren't there "social fanatics"? People who think it their right to police the lifestyles of others, and then claim that there's some hideous AND illegal activity that the people that they're trying to get are involved in? Of COURSE no one will support an organization that practices child abuse - but apparently, there was no proof here - only a telephone call, seemingly made by a bogus source - but there was also the mistrust and dislike of a group that lived a different way - and that's all it took to produce a huge governmental over-reaction.

  • Christian
    June 11, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    When people start saying, "They have no evidence ..." it tells me they are guilty as suspected.

  • FLDS Mother
    June 11, 2008 3:26 p.m.

    Janet,I can't agree more! Thanks!

    As for all of you out there, I'm sorry, but all this time I thought I was thinking my own thoughts. I'm so glad you could open my eyes and let me know I was "Brainwashed"
    WOW!!!! I feel better already.... Now could you please explain what I'm suppose to think.... I don't know ... I can't use my own thoughts. I probable can't feel my own feelings... Wow!!!! I don't feel the freedom I did a few minutes ago...HELP!

  • Anthony
    June 11, 2008 3:16 p.m.

    I hear everyone talking about the marrying and abuse of underage girls, but no charges have been filed? Why was the ranch raided then? Their civil rights were violated and hardly anyone complains about that. I do not agree with their beliefs, but if this was some liberal organization and not a so called "religious" one, it would have never happened or the outrage would have been swift and extreme.

    The hypocrisy is that they have multiple wives they take care of, but I know of a "baby momma" who has 2 kids by a breeder. He has 10 kids by 7 females and has married none of them. He does not support them financially (the Texas taxpayer does) or is not there for them as a father. They all live with their single moms.

    How about the FLDS just shacking up with and not marrying these women. Would that be any different? That seems to be an accepted policy in America now.

  • they should
    June 11, 2008 3:16 p.m.

    The Police outside her home should walk in and arrest her for the terrorist act she authorized on American soil!

  • Jim Stickann
    June 11, 2008 3:07 p.m.

    She doesnt need to be under guard. She belongs in a strait jacket before she harms herself or others. A padded cell would probably also be helpful.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 2:54 p.m.

    What most of you seem to over look in this issue is that it is not about potential violence from the FLDS or any other religeous group . To get to the heart of the matter is that the government Local , State , and Federal is way over reaching the the consent of the governed and the people are just damned tired of it. Any high profile action tends to act as a lightning rod for the seething undercurrent of resentment I find as I cross this country . If you can't discern this your either a dumbass or a victim of the same BRAIN WASHING you perport to abhor from the FLDS .

  • Fearful American
    June 11, 2008 2:44 p.m.

    Given the most criminal thing they have done is stare at someone, I must concur with the rest who feel the Texas Public Servants are trying to re-direct public attention.

    What must concern us all the most is how contrived the dossier information is and that such trivial information is being brandied about so menacingly by our public servants.

    I think the State of Texas and Utah need a solid house cleaning of their public servants (as we do in D.C.).

  • all the same
    June 11, 2008 2:39 p.m.

    Whether down in Texas or Arizona
    or up here in Utah, they're all the same.
    A bunch of crazy cultists.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 2:35 p.m.

    Right or wrong, whatever Texas did or didn't do, the problem is still present in the YFZ and flds communities. For example:
    Why aren't they more fiscally responsible? Why should tax payers have to pay for their food, while they take whatever money they earn and build huge buildings and buy big cars for the leaders?
    Why don't they give the women and children freedom to come and go if they want to..or to visit relatives?
    Why don't they educate their children past middle school?
    Why do they take the girls and little boys out to work on road projects? Is it because they have run off all the older boys?
    Why do they follow the wives who have escaped and try to get the children back never to see their mom again?
    Why do they reassign women and children to other men?
    Why do they dip lower and lower into the pool of brides until they are marrying 12 year olds? (Hopefully they will actually stop this practice)
    If they can't support extra wives and children, they shouldn't take on more than they can handle. It's really immoral to expect someone else to pay their way.

  • Re: Janet
    June 11, 2008 2:30 p.m.

    "The only thing that tracks down the people who leave our society is their testimony,...The only thing the FLDS has done to them was prayed God to bless them."

    I have personal knowledge that that is a lie. The FLDS do a lot more than simply pray for people, especially girls and mothers, who have left their community.

  • Moniker
    June 11, 2008 2:17 p.m.

    Why Should I wrote:

    "My issue with the Warren Jeffs culture is that fact that this group does very little but live off of the taxes that the rest of us americans provide. They do very little to support themselves. Point in case the amount of food stamps used by this group. If they have legitimate businesses and contracts then where is the money to support those who need the support. Why is it Jeffs is driving around in 50K + vehicles and yet each week more taxes are used to support their group with food."

    We've been following this thing for months and the state of Texas has stated that the FLDS in Texas do not use welfare or take food stamps. They are also the largest single taxpayer in their county. What you claim may have happened in Utah, but it has NEVER happened in the Texas FLDS group. There are some elderly that have social security and some disabled that have the same benefits as you and I. Get your facts straight please and stop amplifying false rumors. This is what CPS has been doing the whole time.

  • Karen
    June 11, 2008 2:13 p.m.

    To: Why Should I!!!! | 1:17 p.m. June 11, 2008

    You little twinky! My brother lives at the YFZ and he pulls 72 hour shifts. They work extremely hard to be self-sufficient and they DO NOT rely on welfare or foodstamps, keep your frump to yourself. It's your problem if it makes you upset that people take wasteland out in the boonies and turn it into a beautiful thriving community. You need to get a clue!

  • R
    June 11, 2008 2:10 p.m.

    Point in case [sic] the amount of food stamps used by this group.

    What is that amount?

    If they have legitimate businesses and contracts then where is the money to support those who need the support.

    What FLDS members have gone without "support"?

  • Janet
    June 11, 2008 2:00 p.m.

  • No Arm Twisting
    June 11, 2008 1:59 p.m.

    Willy Jessop looked like he wanted to punch the lights out on the interviewer on 48 hours a few weeks ago. It's a good thing it was all on TV, otherwise I fear what might have happened to the 48 hours interviewer. After all, the interviewer was just doing his job. No one twisted old willies arm to be there.

  • Ask the fudiciary
    June 11, 2008 1:55 p.m.

    Ask the people who are overseeing the distribution of the FLDS properties in Colorado City, Hilldale about "Peaceful" FLDS. You will hear something very different than what the FLDS and Kingston clain members who post on these boards are claiming.

  • zxcvbnm
    June 11, 2008 1:54 p.m.

    I guess the FLDS will mix the nonexistant ashes from the nonexistant crematorium with the untreated waste from the cheese factory and serve Walther a drink that will agrivate her lactose intolerance.
    Or is the intolerance just a civil rights intolerance....or religious intolerance.
    Perhaps they can feed one of the 21 year old "lost boys" an explosive mix of honey and fresh vegtables and let him "escape" into the police station and poison the place with intestinal gas.
    Oh I got it.......the FLDS will get on their knees and pray for justice and tolerance from the Texas authorities.....the same revenge they heaped on the guys with the tank as they broke down the temple door.

  • Janet
    June 11, 2008 1:50 p.m.

    The Tears of these children may well be considered blood on the soil of Texas, crying to God for justice! These children and their families have been scarred for life by the foolishness of people like Barbara Walthers. There is a just God in Heaven and He has the ability to read our hearts. I do not envy Barbara Walthers.I hate her either, but I do forgive her and leave judgement to God. I know this to be the case with all other faithful FLDS members. This is not the end, God is at the helm and truth will prevail. Soon you will all see the truth for yourselves, God bless you.

  • To Wilber from Ed H
    June 11, 2008 1:44 p.m.

    They did it with shotguns in Sonora Mexico and with handguns in Utah and Texas. Proven in court and Labaron was sentenced. Anything else?

    June 11, 2008 1:38 p.m.

    Re: betty; if anyone has been, or is spewing hatred,
    may I humbly suggest you look into the mirror.
    I suppose,that you and those like you will not be content, until Texas conducts a lovely raid, this time, with a fiery conclusion.
    When you attend church, please remember the one about,those without sin may cast the first stone.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 1:36 p.m.

    You notice how the state of Utah leads the country in realyy wierd type of news.

  • Randi
    June 11, 2008 1:28 p.m.

    The raid of the FLDS ranch in Texas was a complete abuse of the constitutional civil rights of those people. The initial call was a hoax and it now appears there hasn't been any abuse and the number of pregnant teenagers is down to 1. Barbara Walther is a very confused or sick person, the only protection she needs is from herself.

  • Freddie
    June 11, 2008 1:25 p.m.

    "Now that the kids are back, a little retribution wouldn't be out of the question..."

    You got that right... like a multi-million dollar lawsuit against Texas and the CPS for violation of human rights.

  • Samme
    June 11, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    "One last thing, if ADULTS want to have more than one wife, or more than one husband, why should that be against the law??? Why should we say anything about it."

    Because future generations would start to look like Clark Gable, John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Kerry Grant, or Elvis Presley.

  • Why Should I!!!!
    June 11, 2008 1:17 p.m.

    I don't pretend to support or ridicule the FLDS religion, they have been around for a long time, just as any other religion, religiion in general is a good thing for a person or group of people to believe in something of higher order. Where this all takes a bad turn is in the abuse of that belief to the point of some form of manipulation or even violence.
    I am not saying that there has been violence, but there are plenty of people who have so called freed themselves from YFZ who paint quite a different story than what the people of YFZ are trying to paint.
    My issue with the Warren Jeffs culture is that fact that this group does very little but live off of the taxes that the rest of us americans provide. They do very little to support themselves. Point in case the amount of food stamps used by this group. If they have legitimate businesses and contracts then where is the money to support those who need the support. Why is it Jeffs is driving around in 50K + vehicles and yet each week more taxes are used to support their group with food.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 1:17 p.m.


  • spellcheck
    June 11, 2008 1:15 p.m.

    How do you spell Dannite?

  • wrz
    June 11, 2008 1:12 p.m.

    "Don't think for a minute that the FLDS men haven't been planning a lawsuit since the day CPS came to their front gate."

    And I'd be among the first to encourage it. Their rights were severely violated. They deserve justice and compensation.

  • Re: Willey (er David)
    June 11, 2008 1:10 p.m.

    I'm not really surprised that you agree with Bill, I just question Bill's sanity in agreeing with you.

  • Blain
    June 11, 2008 1:09 p.m.

    "Anyone that thinks Jessop wasn't trying to intimidate witnesses at Warren Jeff's trial, is a fool."

    Yeah, right. He was trying to put a hex on them with his evil eye.

  • Don't blame the Texans
    June 11, 2008 1:06 p.m.

    I have two sons living in Texas, and believe me, they say all the folks in Texas aren't happy with Texas CPS's actions against the FLDS. Read the posts on Texas newspapers, if you don't believe me.
    Texans may stand up against child abuse--so do most all of us. But many, many Texans stand up for the Constitution, too. And some of them are Baptists! I don't know why the Baptist church allowed their buses to be used--I think it was a mistake on their part--but that's no reason to tar everybody with the same brush.

  • Dossier on me?
    June 11, 2008 1:05 p.m.

    Utah is welcome to create a dossier on me; they'll find it extremely boring.

    -mowed lawn
    -took kids to soccer game
    -went hiking
    -washed car
    -watched a baseball game -- on TV!!!

  • R
    June 11, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    "Freeing the enslaved women and protecting the precious children"? How? By obtaining a warrant based on a claim of abuse against someone who had never set foot at YMZ? By imprisoning them in uncomfortable, disease ridden [chickenpox, to be specific] makeshift prisons and then forcibly separating them? By pretending 37 y.o. women were teen mothers? By claiming their IDs were fake so they had an excuse to do so? *laughs* That's what you call "protection"?

  • David
    June 11, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    To non-FLDS,
    Anything I've heard Bill Medvecky say was wise and I agreed with him so what's your problem?

    To: caution--beware
    You must be one of them then, keep your lies to yourself and leave decent people alone. Are you looking out for space aliens who traveled all the way across our galaxy, just to peer in your window?

    Get a clue!

  • Re; Clarence
    June 11, 2008 12:58 p.m.

    It's a good thing Texas law enforcement decided to protect the judge against attacks from people like you. Who knows what heinous crimes you were planning.

    Were you hoping your criticism of their efforts would cause them to let down their guard?

  • Freddy
    June 11, 2008 12:55 p.m.

    FLDS are not a religion. They are a evil cult. Don't let that sheep like appearance fool you. Its better to look like a sheep rather than a wolf if you are out doing dirty deeds.

  • Re: mensem
    June 11, 2008 12:52 p.m.

    "let by gones be by gones"

    You've got to be kidding. The FLDS track down their own people who try to leave their cult.

    Don't think for a minute that the FLDS men haven't been planning a lawsuit since the day CPS came to their front gate.

  • Do they have a dossier on you?
    June 11, 2008 12:52 p.m.

    If Utah is going to start dossiers on anyone who is willing to give up their life for their cause (or their religion) and not just the FLDS... they will have a lot more than 16 dossiers.

    I think this fear of the FLDS enforcers is a myth(just like many of the myths and fears we insist on holding onto about the FLDS). Just like the myths that caused Texas to over-react and go into the Ranch with tanks and swat teams (even thought they faced NO armed resistance) for what could have been a simple child abuse report investigation.

  • Agree
    June 11, 2008 12:50 p.m.

    PATRICIA, I agree with you 100 percent!.. BETTY, although Im not a dancing baptist, I agree with you too!! WELL.. your another one who is right on track with me.

  • wrz
    June 11, 2008 12:49 p.m.

    "I guess anyone who attends a Court proceeding had better be prepared to be singled out as a threat."

    And for heaven's sake, don't stare at the witnesses.

  • Clarence
    June 11, 2008 12:37 p.m.

    To: Laying Low | 9:18 a.m. June 11, 2008
    "The FLDS enforcers could have been laying low so as not to give Texas any more justification for keeping the kids."

    I really loved your post. It reminds me of all the heinous crimes you are waiting to commit when the time is right.

    You really should be incarcerated before you start harming innocent people. Or at the very least the public should be warned about you before it's too late.

  • mensem
    June 11, 2008 12:32 p.m.

    No proof, no crime- except the slander campaigne by the state of Texas. Wow, if FLDS was ever inclined to just let by gones be by gones and not sue Texas for disregarding the constitution and ripping their families apart, those chances are gone! It's sad, but the only way to fix Texas (an entity and not a person) is to sue them.

  • Jackson
    June 11, 2008 12:26 p.m.

    The judge is in serious danger. She has received death threats and the governor's house has already been burned by an arsonist.

    She does need protection, not from the FLDS, but from the general public.

    The problem for the state of Texas is that they can't admit this without also admitting that their and her actions have generally pissed people off.

    So they pretend that they are protecting her from the FLDS.

    This is a perfect example of why government officials should not violate the rights of the citizens. Not because it is wrong, but because it is DANEROUS.

  • re:Mark
    June 11, 2008 12:24 p.m.

    That is being very,very "Jr.Highish" it does not make you sound cute or smart only STUPID STUPID !!!!!

  • The "authorities" are scary
    June 11, 2008 12:23 p.m.

    I'd worry a lot more about the Texas Rangers and CPS than about the harmless FLDS. What happened at the ranch in April? The heavily armed Texas Rangers and other cops, with an ARMORED CAR, crashed thru the gates, smashed their way into the FLDS Temple and terrified men, women and children. Rounded the children and many of the women up, loaded them onto First Baptist Church buses and hauled them off to the Baptist Church. And what did the "dangerous" FLDS men do? They knelt around the outside of the Temple and prayed. Yes, they are certainly a bloodthirsty, killer bunch alright!

    Shurtleff, Utah and Texas authorities are proven liars. Everything they say and do is highly suspect and not just concerning the FLDS. Shurtleff should go to jail for his recent escapades. The FLDS need to file multi-million dollar lawsuits against all of them, that will shut them up. Much of this crap is coming from Flora and Carolyn Jessop, liars who are looking to make money from book sales.

  • BBQ
    June 11, 2008 12:22 p.m.

    "Texas is setting the stage, for a "Waco style Bar B Que", of the FLDS."

    Since Texas wasn't responsible for WACO, most of the FLDS having nothing to fear.

    On the other hand, the child-abusing FLDS men, you know who you are, should be very concerned about the accomodations in the Texas correctional facilities.

  • Please Read
    June 11, 2008 12:20 p.m.

    "UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN" is a must read for the majority of the ones on this blog."GODS BROTHEL" is another one,especially if you are under the imression that the young women have a choice.Please,don't believe all the garbage that the anti-CPS and anti-Texas, people are spouting off.

  • betty
    June 11, 2008 12:18 p.m.

    i am one of those wicked baptists who dance, ha ha, we will be praying for the safety of the judge who tried to free the enslaved women and protect the precious children.
    the polys must not be working much now, they seem to spend all their time spewing hatred over the internet.

  • justice
    June 11, 2008 12:17 p.m.

    The wicked flee when no man persueth.

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 12:17 p.m.

    To me,
    And obviosly the Holocaust was the Jews fault and since they were killed in such numbers we have to worry about them being violent.
    If you do not see I am being sarcastic, then I am telling you I am. That is the type of rubbish the people who bring up the LeBarons are spouting.
    I am suprised I have not yet seen people griping about Jeffs and the killing of the dogs. However if you do, you ignore the fact that Jeffs is not an animal rights activists and does not see the death of a dog as morally equivalent to the death of a person.

  • Obvious
    June 11, 2008 12:12 p.m.

    I find it hard to believe there's so much support for the FLDS identified enforcers. The FLDS followers support the rape of minor girls by so-called "marriages". The bottom line is that it's rape and only rape. A minor girl does not have the legal ability to consent, especially 15 year olds and younger. Rape is an act of violence and if they're capable violence against a minor girl, they're capable of violence against an adult. Since none of you were in the courtrooms where they were banned and have obvioulsy never seen the reports, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Get real.

  • John Lambert
    June 11, 2008 12:12 p.m.

    Actually Hitler, or at least Himler, wanted to institute polygamy. They did have their project where "aryan" soldiers were bread with good "aryan" young-women to bring forth a master race. The state then raised these children.

  • well...
    June 11, 2008 12:11 p.m.

    ....isn't this lovely. Such a nice loving community, so picked on because their child abuse has come to light. Nevermind the fact that Warren Jeffs has been ripping kids from families for years before the raid.

    And to all of the FLDS supporters, can any of you PLEASE explain why Merrill Jessop is in hiding??? If he's so great and this community has done nothing wrong, what does he have to hide?

  • Get a life and one wife
    June 11, 2008 12:01 p.m.

    Re: Anonymous well for your information, I know some FLDS and you folks are not what you try to make people believe you are. YOU ARE LIARS! And you are full of BS!

  • R
    June 11, 2008 11:43 a.m.

    //People who intentionally break the law and choose to flaunt it are to be feared.//

    Hmm... I've broken multiple laws in my time. And yet no-one I know is afraid of me. Not all laws are created equal. Should I be afraid of people who are lax about seatbelts? People who smoke marijuana from time to time? People who download movies and music? People who leave graffiti?

    //More smear tactics from the FLDS to build public sympathy for their windfall profits lawsuits. //

    Who's smearing whom? Who have the FLDS smeared and what was the smear?

    June 11, 2008 11:22 a.m.

    DMN, why are you afraid of logical comment?
    I will be brief. Texas is setting the stage, for a
    "Waco style Bar B Que", of the FLDS. They are not going to let the issue go.

  • LMAO
    June 11, 2008 11:13 a.m.

    Ok ok, it says Deseret news. But just have to check again, cuz it sounds like The, Des news should do articles like this more often I needed the Laugh.

  • Re: RTS
    June 11, 2008 10:53 a.m.

    You obviously don't understand defamation. The DN can not be sued for simply publishing information contained in a public record.

    Authorities don't have to wait until actual violence occurs before for they do something to prevent it. Only people with extreme stupidity and incompetance would wait until after the fact before they considered the possibility.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 10:48 a.m.

    I suggest that if you don't personally know any followers of polygamy, you should not be posting your comments about what they are or are not capable of. Female polygamists are brainwashed by the males and they are afraid of them. They are so brainwashed that if a family decides to leave the "group", the ones leaving can't allow their children to visit with family members still remaining with the "group" for fear that they will never have their children returned to them or, even see them again. Those of you who post that the FLDS are not to be feared, 1) don't know any of them, 2) are posting just to be controversial, or 3) are sympathizers with them and want to boast of your sympathy. People who intentionally break the law and choose to flaunt it are to be feared. No religion has the right to expect its membership to break the law intentionally. It's not a religion, it is a cult.

  • Smear tactics
    June 11, 2008 10:46 a.m.

    More smear tactics from the FLDS to build public sympathy for their windfall profits lawsuits.

  • They are making things up
    June 11, 2008 10:29 a.m.

    Raymond Takashi Swenson,

    "Making accusations of potential criminal action by people who have never been charged or convicted, who have not themselves actually uttered a threat, and who are not for other reasons public figures, may open the DMN to litigation for defamation of character."

    They could always use the defense that they are reporting a story about the persons in questions but laws against defamation of character protect private individuals from having any defamatory statements printed about them.

    "If I were Mr. Cannon, I would have removed the names from this piece unless there was specific evidence of specific threats or violent behavior, not subjective "he looked at me funny" assertions by the prejudiced."

    There's no evidence of any violent behavior and such assertions are false. It has been 9 months since they claimed that Willie Jessop looked at them funny yet no one has been harmed. If they haven't killed any one in the 9 months since Jeff's conviction I doubt they are planning it anytime soon.

    The only thing that the FLDS have done in Texas since the Supreme Court ruling that's threatening is REGISTERING TO VOTE.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 11, 2008 10:24 a.m.

    "I'm so scared" has made the best point yet. Well done.

  • due dilegence
    June 11, 2008 10:18 a.m.

    Texas should do it's due dilegence in investagating the dribble. We don't want threats and intimidation that have been propagated in times past to continue.

    Research this and you will find it true.

  • I'm so scared
    June 11, 2008 10:16 a.m.

    This is getting out of control. There is absolutely NO evidence that Judge Walther is in any danger and the moment the FLDS realized that a non-FLDS owned site had posted her home address and phone number they asked the owner of the site remove it.

    They have had ample opportunities for violence but have not resorted to it. Let's not forget the Utah officials who convicted Warren Jeffs? Who has been killed by the FLDS for the arrest and conviction of their leader? NO ONE!

    I guess the staring contest at Jeff's trial where Jessop gave that threatening "look" didn't amount to action since we haven't received any news that the Judge, jury, prosecutor or arresting officers have been harmed. When was Jeffs convicted? It was in September of last year and it has been almost 9 months since the conviction.

    They didn't react violently to that conviction nor did they react violently when the police showed up at the YMZ Ranch, nor did they react violently when their children were taken by CPS workers, and they didn't react violently when the Judge ruled against them instead THEY REGISTER TO VOTE. That's really scary!

  • Stupid
    June 11, 2008 10:10 a.m.

    This is so stupid. The judge is more likely at risk from a psyco NOT FLDS, then from one of them. LAME!

  • Turnaround...
    June 11, 2008 10:01 a.m. fair play.

  • WashCo
    June 11, 2008 9:58 a.m.

    Those of you that don't believe that danger for the judge is possible don't live around these folks. Remember Ervil Lebaron?, the same thought processes are still there. The goon squads are still there. Ask some of the "lost boys" if there is danger. Ask some of the women who have managed to escape if there is danger. You bet she needs protection.

  • Raymond Takashi Swenson
    June 11, 2008 9:54 a.m.

    It is certainly appropriate to give Judge Walther security protection. Millions of Americans hate her for her high-handed actions in violation of statute and the 14th Amendment. She could be targeted by a wacko like Timothy McVeigh who has nothing to do with the FLDS people but looks for ways to violently express an amorphous rage against perceived government oppression.

    On the other hand, a news-gathering organization like the DMN should have the research capability to actually identify any violent crimes committed by FLDS people in the dossier. The fact that none of the people whose names are used in this story are actually associated with a specific charge of criminal violence, let alone a conviction, makes the entire story questionable. Making accusations of potential criminal action by people who have never been charged or convicted, who have not themselves actually uttered a threat, and who are not for other reasons public figures, may open the DMN to litigation for defamation of character. If I were Mr. Cannon, I would have removed the names from this piece unless there was specific evidence of specific threats or violent behavior, not subjective "he looked at me funny" assertions by the prejudiced.

  • Texan
    June 11, 2008 9:52 a.m.

    I have lived in Texas all of my life and I resent the fact that all of Texas is being made fun of--I and my family had nothing to do with the raid on the ranch so please quit generalizing and be more specific. Thank You

  • Not all
    June 11, 2008 9:51 a.m.

    Not all of any of us are good, decent, law-abiding people. Unfortunately.

  • spiritree
    June 11, 2008 9:46 a.m.

    More of the 'smear' effort to justify the actions of texas officials against a community of citizens. Where is the proof? If there are those who are gunning for this judge, I use the honorable term loosely in her case, why are you warning them? Paranoid is not the word here, they are trying to cover there behinds and limit law suits that are coming. Why to the people of Texas tolerated this miss use of there officials and the excessive misuse of tax payers money. Shame on Texas!

  • Brillo
    June 11, 2008 9:44 a.m.

    Seems like the real question here (which no one seems to be asking) is: Who exactly are the "Utah and Colorado authorities" who started this? I'm getting really tired of anonymous informers.

  • Patricia
    June 11, 2008 9:34 a.m.

    Pull your heads out of the sand, people! I simply cannot believe the comments I read on this page. Anyone who knows anyone who's ever been in the FLDS or has ever been around there (or has even seen a documentary on tv or read a book) knows about the trucks that follow outsiders in and out of the community and the intimidation tactics used by the FLDS to keep their women in line and keep them from leaving. Why do you think they had a guard tower built at the YFZ ranch?? To protect their garden from jackrabbits?? Whether you think this judge was right or wrong in her decisions, she absolutely has reason for protection from some of these people based on their history. And, if I were her, circumstantial evidence would be quite enough for me to want to protect myself and my family. Religious fanaticism is at the heart of much violence in this world and those of you that would say this judge deserves some sort of revenge--SHAME ON YOU! And those of you who think the FLDS are not religious fanatics with extremist beliefs, GET A CLUE!

  • Rick
    June 11, 2008 9:32 a.m.

    To: thinkdeeper | 6:29 a.m. June 11, 2008

    I agree.

  • beware
    June 11, 2008 9:31 a.m.

    Utah has a rich history of religious fanatics, they know what they are looking at from experience. Looking from Texas, we see many in Utah that are very suspicious and you better stay right where you are. Don't come to Texas!

  • New SUVs
    June 11, 2008 9:27 a.m.

    Willie and the boys are probably out shopping the new line of SUVs so they'll know which one to buy when their raid windfall profits start to roll in from all of the lawsuits they plan on winning.

    Of course, the women and children won't see a penny of the money.

    Most of the FLDS are good, decent, law-abiding (except for polygamy) people.

    But not all.

  • beware of FLDS
    June 11, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    I have known some FLDS. I don't think the authorities should back off for one minute on investigating FLDS cultists. They are not what they appear. I think Willy Jessop is one of their ring leaders and as well a very evil man just like the rest. Most of these hateful posts come from FLDS.

  • Gray Wolf
    June 11, 2008 9:21 a.m.

    Deseret News:
    The heightened security was ordered after authorities from Utah and Arizona warned them to be on the lookout for FLDS "enforcers," the Deseret News has learned.

    Something is really wacky for the DI to publish this story, even if it is true. Are you now a "lackey" for law enforcement, or just can't resist stirring the pot?

    The newspaper publishing business is hurting, so perhaps anything is justified to keep readership up for the advertisers.

    Well, DI, how did you learn the information? I bet it's confidential.

  • Laying Low
    June 11, 2008 9:18 a.m.

    "If there were going to be violence, it would have occurred when CPS was tearing families apart."

    Not necessarily. The FLDS enforcers could have been laying low so as not to give Texas any more justification for keeping the kids.

    Now that the kids are back, a little retribution wouldn't be out of the question, especially if it serves notice on the some of the FLDS, who might be wavering, on what they can expect if they don't toe the party line.

  • Reply to Not a polyg
    June 11, 2008 9:18 a.m.

    Who are the 12? You must not be aquainted with FLDS since they don't have an organized 12. Looks like you need a little more education as well, like English and spelling. I would suggest some education before you start spouting on the blog sites.

  • The Height of Paranoia
    June 11, 2008 9:15 a.m.

    Yesterday upon the stair..
    I met a man who wasn't there..
    He wasn't there again today..
    Oh I wish that man would go away..

  • Rolling my eyes
    June 11, 2008 9:02 a.m.

    I can't believe the chutzpah of the authorities in this case. "Willie the Thug"? Come on.

    This is merely a ploy by the establishment to garner sympathy for Judge Walther, no different than our own AG's claims that the FLDS said mean things about him in a sermon once.

    It's part of an effort to get people to forget that Judge Walther grossly abused her authority and initiated one of the biggest child protection fiascoes in US history.

    All because the Texas CPS was willing to accept the lurid tales of bitter former polygamists and ignore the evidence.

  • Lawyers
    June 11, 2008 8:58 a.m.

    They really need info on the herd of lawyers that will be suing everyone in Texas. That will be the real "hit" squad.

  • Ray
    June 11, 2008 8:49 a.m.

    When the only weapon found at the ranch was a bow and arrow, what's the basis for concern? In west Texas every pickup has a gun-rack in the back window! Oh, not the FLDS pickups, but no worry, Judge Walters has never let the facts stand in her way.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 11, 2008 8:50 a.m.

    I would think that, if the FLDS were EVER inclined to commit violence, it would have been when their children were taken away NOT after they have been returned. This is just more war-mongering rhetoric on the part of the Texas authorites to redirect attention from their own lawlessness. Leave the FLDS alone and stop the persecution. Get on with the criminal investigation and let it go where it may. I am inclined to believe it will follow in the tracks of the child abuse allegations - peter out to nothing. The FLDS are not big enough of fanatical enough to spawn Dannite concerns. I think that a lot of people were actually disappointed that the FLDS did not respond violently which would have justified the extent of the force used against them. That disappointment is now causing them to look for bad guys in every shadow. Personally, I think that if there were any malicious stares or looks in the courtroom, they originated from the bench. Judge Walthers is a threat to herself - look for her to implode when all the facts are known.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 8:43 a.m.

    The FLDS are a bunch of wackos. Utah has something not to be proud of.

  • James J
    June 11, 2008 8:39 a.m.

    Hmm, I look at this case and reflect on what happened to my people in the 1800s. We were polygamists and because of that belief we were hated, scorned, beat, raped, killed. I cant believe in America that we would be so judgmental. We should be called the land of the free, home of the brave, and place where if you have different religious views, then your kids will be taken from you without due process. As far as the judge goes, I believe there was once an ancient civilization that fell, and one of the reasons was the judges turned corrupt. Seems like we are going down the same path. One last thing, if ADULTS want to have more than one wife, or more than one husband, why should that be against the law??? Why should we say anything about it.

  • I agree
    June 11, 2008 8:23 a.m.

    I agree with kg! I think this is irresponsible journalism--not at all what I expect to see in the DN!
    There is no evidence at all that the FLDS as a group have ever been violent.
    Ron Lafferty was NOT FLDS, neither was Ervil Lebaron.
    But I have been waiting for some crazy to take advantage of this situation to pull some stunt and blame it on the FLDS, who are vulnerable because of the media frenzy built up against them during Texas CPS illegal actions, which CPS had to find a way to justify.
    And, no, I am not FLDS.

  • Lucy
    June 11, 2008 8:20 a.m.

    Even if there is no threat from the FLDS, there may be those who would harm Judge Walther just to fan the flames of predjudice against the FLDS. It never hurts to be cautious.

  • Willie
    June 11, 2008 8:21 a.m.

    R.S. I agree with you. The 48 hours program showed Willie Jessop or the Thug's body language which was really disturbing and threatening.

  • Dribble
    June 11, 2008 8:20 a.m.

    Why is it that when the state didn't do it's due dilegence in investagating a hoax phone call and then the courts tell them to go back and start over why is it that they try the same case in the media? This is the same dribble that has been propagated in times past. If you will only research this you will find it true.

  • Mark
    June 11, 2008 8:14 a.m.

    Not only are they STUPID in Texas, they're now also PARANOID! I heard they were also looking out for space aliens who traveled all the way across our galaxy, just to peer in their windows. Oh my!

  • Matthew
    June 11, 2008 8:14 a.m.

    When did US law enforcement stop even trying to base their actions of facts and evidence instead of emotion driven imagination?

    My guess is that there are a lot of crazies out there that the judge and some others involved need to be afraid of. But I bet not one of them is a member of the FLDS.

    Staring at someone to whom you feel animosity seems like a pretty healthy and normal outlet compared to what many do.

  • IA
    June 11, 2008 8:12 a.m.

    I would love to see a follow up on who actually provided this info to Texas officials.

    I think this is desparate atempt to excite the public against the FLDS. Once again go after the criminals in the FLDS community not the community.

  • caution--beware
    June 11, 2008 8:10 a.m.

    FLDS are known liars--only a fool would trust them. No one knows what they might be capable of. . . their whole life is based on deceit and flouting the law.

  • Is registering to vote threateni
    June 11, 2008 7:58 a.m.


    "What Ed H?, These people had there children ripped out of there arms by the state, no violence. They had armed men holding there children hostage illegally, no violence. Then as soon as a little relief comes by the way of the appeals court, and supreme court they immediately have a press conference and forgive all. Lets see by your logic all monogamists must be violent because Hitler and his monogamist group were violent."

    These people want us to believe that the FLDS are somehow going to harm or kill someone out of some desire for revenge. The only revenge I have seen from the FLDS is them going to the County Clerk's and picking up voter registration forms by the hundreds. What was the response of the local Sheriff? He said that he feared they would "mess with THEIR elections."

    I'm not worried about the safety of this Judge, the Sheriff, County officials or CPS workers because the only threatening action of the FLDS has been them obtaining hundreds of voter registration forms. Watch your back Sheriff and Judge because they are going to try to vote you morons out of office.

  • bhparkman
    June 11, 2008 7:53 a.m.

    Uncle Warren's Sons of Helaman (aka: the God Squad, Missionaries) were a great internal threat to the FLDS for a long time. Numbering around 75 - 150, or more. But this concept of Enforcer is new to the FLDS ranks. It is known that some of the adults are a threat to the Second Ward exiles, and surrounding communities, but not so much to the general public or LDS folks.

    They consider us a beast for bleeding (welfare) and ripe in wickedness. They may not be suicidal as to attack the rest of us in a holy war, but the circumstances changed when Texas did a second Short Creek. Who knows what will happen now.

    Records in this paper, the Trib, and many others state the FLDS has access to at least 3 Cessna aircraft, several types of vehicles, and are known to carry small arms (handguns, hunting rifles, shotguns). So they have the arms to do some damage, but nothing like our National Guard.

    I think Texas is frightened, and rightfully so. They have the right to self-defense and they should be armed. If the FLDS decide to commit political and social suicide, then that's their look-out.

  • Liz
    June 11, 2008 7:50 a.m.

    The FLDS have done nothing but lie. I wouldn't trust them one bit.

  • Bruce
    June 11, 2008 7:47 a.m.

    This is laughable. "Enforcers" indeed. If there were going to be violence, it would have occurred when CPS was tearing families apart.
    What a lame attempt to sway public opinion. I guess next they'll need to stage something and blame it on the FLDS.
    The whole nation sees through this cheap charade, texas. Try something else.

  • Not a polyg but know several
    June 11, 2008 7:46 a.m.

    Yes the FLDS does have a history of violence. I have a close friend who too her boys from it in the days of Leroy Johnson, and Jeffs Dad.
    She was kidnapped from a job. Held in seclusion.

    He son that stayed, has been ostercized by Jeffs, everything taken from him, including his home and belongings.

    I have had business with Jeffs @ the Ex- Alta Acadamy......There are "Enforcers" in the Group that act under the rule of the Prophet and the 12.

    Lets not be naive...Lets just be educated and prepared.
    Many Polygs are helpless and unassuming...But there are they who will Protect and Serve!!!
    No matter what Snow, Christiansen and Martineau and Parker Say.

  • Not too uncommon
    June 11, 2008 7:42 a.m.

    I admit it seems perhaps a little excessive, but we do not know all of the details.

    Truth is, when there are cases that make become as public as this has become nationally, extra protection for those involved is not uncommon. It typically doesn't make the news this much, but not uncommon.

    One crazed person, FLDS or not, can decide to take matters into his/her own hand. If something did happen with no action taken for protection, just imagine the backlash.

  • ediddy
    June 11, 2008 7:40 a.m.

    It is interesting to see the rumor begin again to crank up. Tips and informants. Retribution. Give it a rest. The innuendo didn't stand up to scrutiny before and it won't here. It is far more likely that those who have disgraced themselves in the CPS and Eldorado system are still spinning info to make themselves look the victim. It is likely that they choose to see in others what they harbor in their own hearts. The "rampant" abuse slime didn't stick with the original assault on these people. Let's see if the murderer and vigilante gossip will stick. I suggest we leave these people alone and mind our own affairs for a while.

  • Re: kg
    June 11, 2008 7:32 a.m.

    The Deseret News is not saying these people are a threat, they are reporting on what has happened. The dossier's are what label these people as a threat, not the newspaper.

    Anyone that thinks Jessop wasn't trying to intimidate witnesses at Warren Jeff's trial, is a fool.

  • jr
    June 11, 2008 7:21 a.m.

    Now we know why our AG has done nothing - he is afraid of the hit mob from the religious fanatics of the FLDS group

  • Non-FLDS
    June 11, 2008 7:15 a.m.

    So one of the chief antagonists of Texas CPS is Bill Medvecky, a Florida resident. I wonder what his personal beef is with CPS. Did CPS take his kids away because he was abusing them? It's obvious that many of the posts on this blog have been written by him, especially the many, many posts referring to his impeach the judge petition.

    An "innocent" stare in a court is not so innocent if the stare is intended to intimidate a witness or a juror. That's tampering, and it is against the law in EVERY state, despite Willie's pretended innocence.

    Awaiting responses from Bill and Willie.

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 7:14 a.m.

    If the Patriot Act is being used in investigating the FLDS (Was there not a federal warrant in the raid, was it for wire tapping? Remember how Waco was bugged?) we will never know because all the eavesdroppings and investigation are all done in secret. All those associated with them, contributers, supporters, etc., could be investigated too.

    I think those families don't want to go back to the ranch because they dont' want their every last word being recorded.

    IF those folks were violent they would have done soemthing when CPS first came, the mothers would have made a run for it while in custody. Nothing happened. They allowed the government to take their kids and were completely passive about it. These rumors about them being violent are the laughable result of hysteria.

  • kg
    June 11, 2008 7:07 a.m.

    Come on Deseret News. This is rumor and gossip to fan the flames against the FLDS, more hearsay and baseless allegations. Where is the proof of a threat of violence? There was none when the ranch was raided and there's been none in the two months since. They've had plenty of reason to be furious and react violently. I haven't seen them do that. The site you mention is not theirs, it was started by a citizen outraged at the violation of rights who wanted to speak out for the FLDS. They had nothing to do with it.

  • Guilty until proven innocent
    June 11, 2008 7:02 a.m.

    I am amazed this paper would print this all this does is incite more abuse towards the FLDS

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 6:55 a.m.

    It's the polygamists who need to be protected from the likes of Barbara Walther. Pull the police off her and let them protect those who have been truly abused, harmed, and violated by the state. Walther shouldn't be killed, that's murder, but she should be impeached, she should resign in shame, she should go back to law school and take constitution 101--she obviously skipped out on that class.

  • Janet
    June 11, 2008 6:49 a.m.

    Barbara Walthers has nothing to fear from the FLDS, if she fears it is because there is a just God in Heaven and she has a guilty concience.
    Barbara Walthers:
    We do not make judgments against you and forgive you for your offenses toward us and leave the matter in the hands of God. Good luck.

  • Fanatic?
    June 11, 2008 6:45 a.m.

    I thought name calling was not allowed
    Quite clear we have a Judge that went to far
    I know some Judges in Utah that are real JERKS
    We mave a major problem getting JUSTICE in the Courts
    We saw Waco, This is a good example.
    Warfare weapons on the front!
    Now we have the FLDS fiasco with a Jerk of a Judge that screwed up ROYAL.
    Just had to push her luck and hurt the kids without evidence
    This is America?

  • Me
    June 11, 2008 6:44 a.m.

    BTW, about 1 minute of googling will tell you that Evril not only had nothing to do with the FLDS but considered them enemies. Perhaps we should be laying the sins of Catholic Priests and leaders of Evangelical organizations against everyone in those religions?

  • Anonymous
    June 11, 2008 6:40 a.m.

    What Ed H, these people had there children ripped out of there arms by the state, no search warrant, no charges, no warning. No violence. Could you stand that and stay peaceful. The Flds have. This article is nothing but another hit peice. If these people were going to resort to violence, they would have already, they definitely have shown a great example of peace and trusting in God.
    By your above logic then all monogamists must be violent because Hitler and his monogamists were. Grow up. Your decision to believe the views of the state no matter what the evidence is reminds of the 1930's German monogamists.

  • Me
    June 11, 2008 6:40 a.m.

    It's understandable that law enforcement might compile a list like this. To think that if you take people's kids away from them for no valid reason that they might want to come after you ain't exactly rocket science. Texas knows they screwed up big time on this and were way over several lines. The anger of people all over the US and far from FLDS folks appears to be pretty thick. Just look at the weight of the letters Texas received against what they did.

    Fortunately I don't believe anyone in the FLDS is stupid enough to come after anyone other than legally and I'd guess Parker and FLDS leadership is exerting some control over the folks they fear may not have the self-control to control their anger over what's happened. There is no evidence, that I know of, of anyone in the FLDS actually doing anything.

  • Teacher and Dad
    June 11, 2008 6:37 a.m.

    Let's see, who and what should I believe? Should I believe the Texas authorities with a known history of lying to the FLDS and leaking erroneous sensationalist tidbits to the news media in order to influence public opinion against them?

    In any case, I agree that its a good idea to protect Judge Walther. Although I totally disagree with her efforts, she shouldn't have to face the threat of damage to her person or property, and this damage could come from any crazy person out there.

    However the concept of an "FLDS enforcer" as a threat to her well being seems pretty far fetched. The FLDS have enough on their plate at present, and besides, Walther is just a small fish in the pond at this point.

  • Sceptic
    June 11, 2008 6:37 a.m.

    This just looks like Texas prejudice and deception at work again. These polygamists were extremely peaceful during this whole ordeal. Why would they suddenly do this now? Texas is trying to look like the victims here.

    What about the picture of this judge? She looks pretty darn scary.

  • Jim D
    June 11, 2008 6:37 a.m.

    I believe you should check your facts Ed H The Labaron CULT never had ANY affiliation with the peaceful, religious FLDS People.

  • zxcvbnm
    June 11, 2008 6:33 a.m.

    Paranoia and gossip still exists as the state continues to demonize the FLDS.
    I would not doubt it if the state blames the recent burning of the Governors mansion on the FLDS.
    Did you hear the latest..FLDS is responsible for the rise in gas's part of the bleed the beast campaign.

  • Right
    June 11, 2008 6:32 a.m.

    This sounds like a smear campain to me. Texas is pretty lame.

  • thinkdeeper
    June 11, 2008 6:29 a.m.

    What Ed H?, These people had there children ripped out of there arms by the state, no violence. They had armed men holding there children hostage illegally, no violence. Then as soon as a little relief comes by the way of the appeals court, and supreme court they immediately have a press conference and forgive all. Lets see by your logic all monogamists must be violent because Hitler and his monogamist group were violent.

  • Whatever!
    June 11, 2008 6:12 a.m.

    Oh Please! Now we'll get all the weirdo Danite believers posting. Please let these people go in peace!

  • AZ
    June 11, 2008 6:08 a.m.

    Gee, was the threast made by 'Sarah'? Here goes Texas again.

  • Rednael
    June 11, 2008 5:53 a.m.

    It seems Texas will lie any lie to shift the "thug" spotlight off of themselves back onto the very people that they were persecuting.

    I remember the resident thug in my middle-school beat the stuffing out of a kid and then claimed that the kid had been "staring" at him.

    I see absolutely no difference with the situation in this story.

  • Stephen
    June 11, 2008 5:52 a.m.

    Let the witch hunt begin.

  • Surge
    June 11, 2008 5:41 a.m.

    Here we go with the rumors again. Where's an example of some "violence" from any of these people? Has it ever been shown? I can make up rumors and accusations all day long about any person I want, but it doesn't change the truth.

    If having a strange expression during a court hearing constitutes violent behavior, then Judge Walther should immediately be removed from office. I mean, look at her expression in the picture here. That's got to be intimidating to someone, right? I think I'll notify law enforcement. Everyone, be on the lookout.

  • She should be protected
    June 11, 2008 5:37 a.m.

    Let's not forget the daughter-in-law and her child whos throats were slit due to "revelation from God"
    because they were apostates not keeping covenants they had made.

    In every religion there are crazy freaks... who I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them.

    remember .... "we are law abiding citizens..." breaking the law daily by living polygamy!!!

  • With....
    June 11, 2008 5:17 a.m.

    violence known to have occurred in between Polygamist groups in the past and of course between them and the general public too, I think it is a wise idea to beef up security for officials involved in this incident...

  • NormM
    June 11, 2008 5:14 a.m.

    'Judge' Walther has more to fear from within the legal/judicial system than she does from any supposed threat from the FLDS, for her blatant disregard for Texas law. Her judicial decisions were ruled illegal by the appeals court, AND the Texas supreme court.

    No one's likely to hurt Walther - she's enough of a menace to herself. I suspect she's already destroyed any chance she had of advancing her career on the bench by her lack of judicial skill and disregard for individual liberties guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.

    Here goes Texas again, wasting more tax money on yet another lie.

  • NormM
    June 11, 2008 5:12 a.m.

    Ed H - Wow, are you off-base.

    For the record, I'm not FLDS, but I have researched this subject. Better bone up on your 'Polygamy 101'. I suggest 'Mormon Polygamy - A History' by Anderson as a study text. It accurately describes the origin and history of mormon polygamy within the church, and how the various groups started, what their basic beliefs are, and a history of each.

    Ervil Lebaron was never associated with the group from 'Short Creek' (FLDS). The FLDS has a long history of being passive, and will likely continue to remain so.

  • donn
    June 11, 2008 5:06 a.m.

    Who had the guns,who had the APC,who had the sniper oh and who was going to use them against women and children ? Now they are worried that someone got mad anything to help their cause.

  • Wilbur
    June 11, 2008 4:56 a.m.

    Ed H | 12:47 a.m. June 11, 2008
    "How many did he and his clan murder? And some of their victims were also in Texas."

    Answer: None

    Any more questions, Mr. Ed?

  • R.S.
    June 11, 2008 4:50 a.m.

    I find it interesting when people claim that everyone else is wrong about them, when evidence points the opposite. Let's see...and I am not pointing fingers, but it is interesting that the Govenor's Mansion in Austin burned down and ruled arson.....and now the warnings from Arizona and Utah.....makes me scratch my head. From the article, I can definitely see where Willie Jessop or Willie the Thug would intimidate the program on 48 Hours that was completed about Polygamy and watch his body language.

    This group presents as a peaceful religious group, however comments made in this article, on the forums and in interviews made through direct comments and inuendos lead one to believe that they are not as peaceful as they want you to believe.

    Think fire long as you leave them alone they don't bother you, but when you stir the nest look out. We have seen this through the media blitz'.

    As I read the article the word "mob" comes to mind....same concept, just not behind the word religious.

    I know I will get blasted for my statements, but I am tired of the portrayals being made that these folks are innocent. They are not.

  • one ques?
    June 11, 2008 4:49 a.m.

    How is it that a judge's address and phone number would be in a public phone book? I hardly doubt that. And I have seen some news coverages here where this sect of people are not very nice and polite as they claim to be in this article. They just know that now they have been discovered and so have their true colors and they just want to try to cover all of it up. Sorry I don't by that they are all that peaceful and would do no harm to anybody.

  • who???
    June 11, 2008 3:41 a.m.

    I'd worry a whole lot more about all those foamin, dancin Baptists.
    Nothing is more dedicated than a Baptist wih God's message.
    Granted, it IS hard to tell where their instructions come from, though.

  • Emma
    June 11, 2008 3:41 a.m.

    That's what happens when you believe gossip.

  • Eye Dee Ten Tee
    June 11, 2008 3:27 a.m.

    Just let Judge Walther worry about political and legal repercussions. She let a little authority go to her head and bit off more than she could chew.

    Adam Swap is still in prison, John Singer and Ervil Lebaron are worm food, and if violence was going to happen it would have.

  • Thomas
    June 11, 2008 2:44 a.m.

    The Flds has no history of violnece. Labaron was not part of this group. The most htis group can be accused of is menacing stares at the trail of Warren Jeffs.

  • awesomeron
    June 11, 2008 1:38 a.m.

    So this Hero Judge is now being threatened by people out side the FLDS Group. All I can say is that Federal Law Applies. A disturbed person can act alone, has more success alone, and the best chance to complete his/her task alone. I see this as sending a message. That Sherrill Law in the name of Culture is here, and it is not just the People from the Middle East that you have to been concerned about. Some people watch and when there is a lack of will in one area of Law Enforcement, there can usually find weaknesses in other areas. If they do not let us have our way then we will cry and complain and make the Law Enforcement People look like the bad guy. The Judge did the right thing and the Police and CPS did the right thing. Forced Marriage and Brainwashing are against the law. Forced Marriage and Sex with underage Girls is some degree of Rape. When the Slaves where Freed many did not leave. There was No Place to go, Children and shelter and the next meal had to be thought about. Can't Read, Can't Write, etc. So many stayed.

  • The Governments Hit List
    June 11, 2008 1:07 a.m.

    There isn't a shred of evidence that any of these people have killed or harmed anyone. FLDS spokesman Jessop said:

    "The fact that we would show up in court and then to have them turn that around on us shows how biased these public officials are,...There are no facts, no history of violence, not a shred of evidence to support these irresponsible allegations. Not one bit of it is true and these officials know it."

    I guess anyone who attends a Court proceeding had better be prepared to be singled out as a threat. Don't attend your 15 year old brother's court hearing or you might be labeled a threat and have the police decide create a dossier on you. When did attending a Court hearing become a crime warranting the government creating a dossier on you? Those who have such dossiers on them have every to fear for themselves and their families when neighbors who serve as public officials start sending one another a "hit list." Posting Walther's number is a threat but giving an entire dossier on FLDS members isnt?

    Maybe a dossier should be created on each of the people responsible for these dossiers (i.e., threats).

  • Ed H
    June 11, 2008 12:47 a.m.

    Gee, not those peaceful, religious poligamists. Oh yeah, there was Ervil Labaron. Wasn't his clan a break-off of the Short Creek (Colorado City) group... the very one who is now in Texas? How many did he and his clan murder? And some of their victims were also in Texas.