Most caregivers enjoyed the FLDS children

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  • Grandpa Phil
    June 9, 2008 9:29 a.m.

    gretchen, perhaps some of us have read things about the ex-FLDS that makes them hardly worth listening to. Read an article written by Flora Jessop's Guardian, Martha Barlow Jessop, entitled, "The truth About Flora Jessop". Yeah, 'ole Flora is a real role model all right. If I want to know what a Baptist believes, I will ask a Baptist, not an ex-Baptist. If I want to know what a Mormon believes, I will ask a Mormon, not an ex-Mormon. if I want to know what the FLDS believe, I will ask an FLDS person. I already know why Flora lied about her experiences; she is hardly believable.

  • Janet
    June 8, 2008 2:12 p.m.

    Warren Jeffs wife Annett made her a red checkered dress after he admonished us to treat the color sacredly. A few people in the community thought she was a terrible person but she wasn't. Uncle Warren also teaches not to waste the things Heavenly Father gives us and she was simply using up her faric, she wore the dress out. God made some beautiful red roses and many lovely red things in nature. Every FLDS member (including former members) know that red isn't evil it is sacred. Red is my favorite color, I have a red cell phone, I have some nikes with a red line on them, my father has a red car and no one is condemning us for it.
    Don't believe all that you read or hear against the FLDS people.

  • Anon
    June 7, 2008 1:50 p.m.

    To David on June 6th...

    What does stealing cars and "not paying up" have to do with anything? All I asked was if anyone has read the book ...and you appear to have gotten a little defensive. Hmmm... interesting

  • realitycheck
    June 6, 2008 3:15 p.m.

    ok, David - purposeful lying? LOL where did I lie? State ONE fact that I lied about...

    you can't. My statements are self-evident. I haven't mentioned any of the accusations being thrown around. I discussed facts that FLDS ARE PROUD OF and that I find deplorable. Guess it's a good thing it's a free country and we can each have our opinion.

    You've said I lied in several of your posts. Fact is - you just don't like what I have to say. Must have hit a nerve. Feeling guilty about robbing your children of their future?

  • re: Richard
    June 6, 2008 10:17 a.m.

    Texas law does not protect the State of Texas from civil rights lawsuits in federal court. Every family has a good case.

    The court orders can only last for so long under Texas law, and the longer they're in effect the more evidence for malicious prosecution. Once their travel is no longer restricted, the fearful will file their suits while residing in other states.

    Others will file in Texas with the threat of retaliation hanging over their heads.

  • Read This Book
    June 6, 2008 8:42 a.m.

    Everyone posting here should go to their local bookstore today and buy a copy of James Clavell's "The Children's Story" and read it. It's a twenty minute read that will change your life, and your view of adults who try to manipulate children (whether FLDS or CPS, take your pick), just get it and read it, now.

  • Richard - No Lawsuits
    June 6, 2008 8:32 a.m.

    There will be no lawsuits. The State of Texas has written their laws in such a way as to protect themselves from anyone coming back to them in this regard (the removal of the children).

    Sure, some of the "adults held against their will as minors" might be able to pursue a case, but in most cases these are adult women with children and they would be afraid, should they seeked regress, the State would "punish" them and remove their children.

    As long as the State has the given the order and CPS has the power to step in a remove a child without any further cause, no person (with a child) would dare to sue the State for anything.

  • Marie Devine
    June 6, 2008 8:27 a.m.

    The children have a firm foundation of the love of God and trust in Him. Life gives us circumstances to be overcome and I am sure they will remember this time fondly as they forgive the judge and any wrong done by their leaders.

    I enjoyed the testimony that the girls made matching dresses and sang for the caretakers. It must have been quite an education to see useful children, kind and thoughtful, and girls willing to dress alike. I do not expect that they had a victim mentality.

    Let us not be too quick to instill an angry victim mentality upon people. Forgive and trust what God can do even if you go through horrific circumstances. It is part of the learning process and our opportunity to choose God's abundant life of love and forgiveness.

  • David
    June 6, 2008 8:06 a.m.

    I read "Under the Banner of Heaven" as well as a great number of other books regarding the topic of Polygamy. It doesn't apply to the FLDS since they are completely separate group. The FLDS don't have a history of stealing cars and chop shopping them for funds or threatening murder if you "don't pay up." They also do not murder in-laws and babies because of disagreement regarding the "Principal."

    RC, apply your same principal in reverse. If you raise your child in the FLDS and then expose them to the outside world then give them a choice they too would pick that which is familiar. The "nerve you hit", as I have stated repeatedly, is your purposeful lying. There is no need to lie and degrade a group so that you can feel better about your own life decisions.

  • David
    June 6, 2008 7:55 a.m.

    zxcvbnm, I could not agree with you more. I stopped believing any of the Jessop girls when CPS and the D.A. didn't use them as "experts" in the case. If they don't find them as good witnesses, then why should I.

  • zxcvbnm
    June 6, 2008 6:01 a.m.

    RE WRZ
    For all practical purposes a large portion of the exFLDS books have been printed to various degrees on several web sites and have been discussed on numerous talk show formats since the raid.
    The accusations seem over dramatized and exagerated by the authors and when investigated show little supporting fact to substantiate the claims.
    I can see where the average person would be alarmed by the stories told by the authors but the books belong on the fiction shelf next to the CPS version of the raid.
    Water boarding, escape, and slavery sell well, as do pregnant teens, unclaimed children, and arsenal of weapons. The reality of the situation looks more like perhaps a couple people may have taken advantage of a few people at best.
    Sensational accusations by disgruntled exmembers led to sensational overreaction by lawmakers followed by sensational over compensation by state agencies.
    As far as buying the books.....I'll wait for the movie, then not watch it.

  • Anon
    June 5, 2008 10:00 p.m.

    Anyone read "Under The Banner of Heaven"...?

  • wrz
    June 5, 2008 10:00 p.m.

    ***looks like no one on this particular blog has read any of the numerous accounts by ex-flds of the serious repression many members endure..***

    You'll find the disgruntled in any society. If they leave they are called "run-aways."

  • Kane County Guy
    June 5, 2008 9:59 p.m.

    One good thing that will come from all of this is that the welfare system will no longer have to support many of the FLDS once the lawsuits against the State of Texas have been settled. The courts need to send a message stronger than just a slap on the hand that this kind of arbitrary action is no acceptable. If there is abuse, nail the abuser. If there is welfare fraud, go after the criminal. However, be very, very careful with families, even if they believe in a different value system.

  • Relieved
    June 5, 2008 6:47 p.m.

    I am very happy for the children to be reunited with their families again. The trama from this experience is going to haunt them for the rest of their lives.

    I believe in freedom of religion & the rights of parents to raise their own children. That is what makes America great. I raised my children to believe in God, attend church, not to watch TV or waste time playing video games, to get an education & do something positive in the world. And now they are raising their children the same way.

    I have seen pictures of these FLDS children, they are well fed from gardens of home grown foods, clean, dressed in clothes made by their moms. The children learned to help in the garden, and do chores. The children are home schooled Sounds like how my mom, grandmother & great grandparents raised all their children.

    I also believe that laws of the land must be obeyed and that if such laws where broken then those specific cases be handled individually. Not as a neighborhood.

    I am pleased that our courts have ruled in favor of the families being reunited.

  • realitycheck
    June 5, 2008 4:31 p.m.

    wow - guess I hit a nerve on ediddy and in-the-know.

    You may not like what I am saying, but at least I'm not making accusations I can't back up. Mine are self-evident.

    You raise your children in isolation. You "protect" them from the world. The (unfortunate) result of that is they are not prepared to go out in the world and will most likely stay within your ranks. I say unfortunate, you say fortunate. And that is because if the children knew the REAL world, they would want to partake in it, not hide from it, and that would reduce your ranks, which is the last thing you want. I understand why you do it. But it's unfair to the child.

    You think it's fair, and good. I think you are robbing the child of a future of his/her own choosing.

    Ask yourself this: If you raised your child out in the world, as most of us do, and then told the child (at 18 or so) that they now have the choice to move to YFZ and live there, or they can go out into the world - their choice - which would they choose? Self-evident.

  • Alex
    June 5, 2008 12:18 p.m.

    FLDS Guy:

    "We are doing everything we can to provide a good education for our children in a clean, safe environment. There has been some little mention in the news about how most of the children they tested were at or above grade level. I just wonder, how many "out there" can say the same? "

    Good for you. I can't say that I've ever made the personal acquaintance of anyone from your community (although I've passed through Colorado City and Hillsdale a couple of times), but I am willing to give you the fair treatment that my forefathers never got when they practiced polygamy. Just keep it clean and take care of your wives and children and you will never have any beef from me.

  • G
    June 5, 2008 11:53 a.m.

    And it doesn't apply when the CPS comes after you, whether you are are 13 or 29."

    I think CPS is going to be regretting their raid pretty soon. For one, I'm looking forward to some state employee going to prison for the kid in the stroller they left alone for 18 hours.

  • So. California
    June 5, 2008 11:49 a.m.

    Amber -- you were spot-on correct. I totally agree. Those who made comments about mothers being shackled apparently didn't read your comment correctly. They totally didn't "get" what you were saying.

  • Teacher and Dad
    June 5, 2008 10:37 a.m.

    "Freedom of choice" is what you get when you turn 21. It doesn't apply to minors."

    And it doesn't apply when the CPS comes after you, whether you are are 13 or 29.

  • ediddy
    June 5, 2008 9:48 a.m.

    @realitycheck: One thing is sharply obvious. You either ex-FLDS or are an apologist for the Carolyn Jessops of the world. Your axe is constantly grinding and no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever change your mind. The rest of us are willing to use our own intellect and observation to sift through information that differs markedly from your rantings. If we threw out the high and low score in this contest, you would be history, over the top in bias.

  • David
    June 5, 2008 9:33 a.m.

    Oh bother, RC is again spouting bigoted lies about the FLDS. Why did CPS return to the ranch for a second attempt at a raid? Because not all children were at the ranch at the time of the first raid. So, RC's outlandish fantasy that FLDS children do not see the outside world is nullified.

    RC claims that the FLDS teach about the principal of hell to those that don't follow certain principles. But, he fails to mention that his own belief damns me, an agnostic to hell in a handbasket...don't you RC?
    He then spouts about FLDS parents not wanting their children to "go out into the world" again despite the fact that FLDS children are already exposed to the world based on not only the second attempt at a raid by CPS to get at children not on the ranch at the time, but evidenced by St. George visits which are seemingly quite often.

    RC doesn't need facts because he gladly makes up his own.

  • Jewish Brother
    June 5, 2008 9:26 a.m.

    To Ed Whalen: And evil is when bigots like you spout your venom against a people you know little or nothing about. I pray they stay right in Texas, I sure would not leave my Temple and all I worked for, let the locals move LOL, I am serious, let them move. And By the way "Eddie"; who died and made you God, dictating what others in another religion should or should not do. And who the h--- asked you for your "opinion"? I am a Jew and these folk were singled out from the beginning...The El Dorado Success, the local papaer would print stories about a crematorium in the temple, and this religious persecution is so reminiscent of the NAZI'S...WAKE UP AMERICA, IF YOU DO NOT DEFEND THE FLDS, YOU WILL BE FIGHTING FOR YOUR CHILDREN NEXT. It is people like you that made them insular...they didn't live this way in utah and colorado...that wall is for their protection, just like walls were built around NUNs Monasteries FOR CENTURIES TO PROTECT THEM...Do you work for CPS Ed? Or Law enforcement? You don't stand a chance, the Lord God is on the side of the FLDS...pathetic man Ed..LOL

  • G
    June 5, 2008 8:29 a.m.

    Its about freedom of choice, people. If you don't get that, then I can't explain it any further."

    "Freedom of choice" is what you get when you turn 21. It doesn't apply to minors.

  • Freedom Mann
    June 5, 2008 8:22 a.m.

    Gee, the FLDS children showed self-discipline, self-reliance a firm sense of responsibility, both for themselves and also towards the younger children and many, many skills that the majority of children in the USA don't have unless you wish to count pushing buttons on video games.

    Gee, that's NOT the way abused children generally behave in such settings.

    And stop with the FLDS being uneducated; we've seen nurses, agricultural experts, girls who can make their own clothes and expertise in construction, engineering and even "horrors" PUBLIC RELATIONS.

    Not so bad for an "isolated" community, ay?

  • Peter
    June 5, 2008 7:56 a.m.

    "If I'd have care of one of these kids for a while I would have made a dogged effort to show that the world beyond the yfz prison gate is not inherently evil"

    Too late, "Evil" is when men with machine guns from "the world beyond," come and take you away from your family. The kids now know what evil is.

  • Ed Whalen
    June 5, 2008 7:12 a.m.

    If I'd have care of one of these kids for a while I would have made a dogged effort to show that the world beyond the yfz prison gate is not inherently evil, and as often as possible instilled in them that they are individuals who can be whatever they want. Including but not limited to NOT flds. Here's hoping at least some of them escape in the future. Mind you, now that they are talking concession to some of the prison practices, I imagine they're looking at the map for greater isolation somewhere else.

  • Teacher and Dad
    June 5, 2008 7:07 a.m.

    Another Utah paper has this headline for a story;

    "Utah schools lead nation in junk food availability"

    I have a great respect for any parents who love their kids enough to take the time and energy needed to provide only healthy food to to them, and greatly limit the intake of food (junk food) which is known to cause obesity and to interfere with optimal physical and mental development.

    The FLDS do make the effort to provide healthy food. I'm of a different faith and I do the same for my kids. Just that one fact alone, when I learned of it from the media about the FLDS, indicated to me that the leaks to the media (broken bones, cyanide poisoning, no playing by children, etc) from the CPS, suggesting "child abuse," were likely to be totally bogus, and in the large extent, we are discovering that my suspicions were correct. The FLDS are truly "good parents," whether or not one chooses to believe in or follow their religious philosophy.

  • In the know-unlike reality check
    June 5, 2008 6:52 a.m.

    Reality check is wrong in SO many ways.
    1. Have you EVER met Willie Jessop? I have. He is the W in R and W Excavating.(R is for Royce Jessop). Their company owns over FORTY gigantic Trac hoes, back hoes etc. Their company does work and is well respected all over the southwest, az, ca, ut, tx etc. Most of their operators, if not all are young men that were taught the skill by dads, uncles etc.Is this not a valuable skill, unlike many that go the "college" route for 5-10 years and decide they didn't obtain a useful degree?
    2. I've seen many of the women and girls shopping and eating in my city of St. George. They didn't run or yell to the police for help.
    3. I've seen FLDS couples in the movie theaters, so they aren't locked up.
    4. I'm LDS and not of the FLDS.
    5. I was even asked to visit and speak in their church years ago, and I'm an "outside influence" so they do have some outsiders.
    Most of you don't have a clue as to the FLDS, I do. Acouple other things later.

  • Teacher and Dad
    June 5, 2008 6:48 a.m.

    If someone tries to come and take my kids because they they don't like the type of toys I give my children, they are in for real battle.

  • David
    June 5, 2008 6:37 a.m.

    The "red" issue came about because of Carolyn Jessop's book, ESCAPE. Ironically, it was that which caused me to completely question her words and the action of TX authorities. She states that Warren gave the doctrine that only Jesus should wear the royal color red. The response was that one woman went out and pulled her red rose bush, replacing it with a pink one. Other women immediately got rid of the red dresses while others still continued to wear their red dresses until they wore out. It seems only I noticed that this is proof of individuality over group-think which was claimed.
    Those that post that all little girls will be forced to marry old man, are delusional gossips, especially considering there is no proof of any and one that might possible be victim. These are the same people that ignore that in TX a 14 year old gets pregnant every 10 hours. They bizarrely feel that perpetuating this false beliefs elevates their own status. It does, but that seems to be the desired outcome.

  • VA gal
    June 5, 2008 6:09 a.m.

    I would have to agree with Alex. I think in this culture women are pushed to see children as a burden not a blessing. Often women who pursue careers first before having kids end up 37 years old in a fertility clinic unable to have children with their hearts broken.

    Many women have told me that what has brought them the most joy in this life was their families. Serving them, taking care of the little ones. Even doing the seeming the insignificant work of cleaning the home. If these families want to teach their young ladies how to be good mothers, good wives, and domestic skills I fail to see how that is abuse. The mothers are simply showing the daughters what has brought them the most joy in their lives.

  • FLDS_Guy
    June 5, 2008 5:53 a.m.

    "As per Warren Jeff's order these people are forbiden to have/ wear/ see anything of RED color, as that is the color of Evil.."

    When, oh, WHEN will people stop spreading false information? We just avoid bright red clothing -- that's it. And it's certainly NOT the color of evil, but a sacred color. I would ask where people get such information from, but I already have a very good idea.

    I couldn't have said it better myself. We are doing everything we can to provide a good education for our children in a clean, safe environment. There has been some little mention in the news about how most of the children they tested were at or above grade level. I just wonder, how many "out there" can say the same?

    Why do people keep ranting on about how all our girls are set to be married off at age 14 or younger to some old geezer? It's not true. They are now down to ONE girl who "might" have been abused. I can't wait until that one's also proven false (though that does seem backwards to have to prove it false rather than true.)

  • Soloman
    June 5, 2008 5:44 a.m.

    Let's get one thing straight, this entire situation was a damned if they do, damned if they don't. Obviously taking very little children away from their mothers was questionable. There was no immediate threat to the very little ones. On the other hand, the teenage girls were at risk and STILL ARE.

    This was a case for Soloman. But I doubt the mothers would have given up the children to the "other women." They would rather see the kid cut in two rather than be destroyed by the big bad outside world.

    I don't envy any party in this case....a case that goes on.

  • It can only happen to them...
    June 5, 2008 4:47 a.m.

    So many intelligent comments posted on this story, I am proud of many of the people who post here and hope it is at least a small step to enlightening the general public.
    Being an educator by profession I have seen the Utah version of CPS workers come and make presentations to first graders in a local public school district.
    The friendly young woman does a wonderful job of gaining the children's trust and teaches them what can fit the profiles of a physical or emotional abuser. Effective use is made of charts and pictures and cartoon characters are shown of nice happy faces and the potential abusers, which are depicted as cruel and angry. The children are asked which cartoon characters will not abuse them and they pick the happy faces. The children are asked which cartoon adults might be abusive and they are guided to choose the stern and angry faces. The children are asked what kind of tone of voice a person might use who does not abuse children and they say a happy voice; then they are asked who would might be an abuser of children, and they say it is those with an angry voice...

    June 5, 2008 12:20 a.m.

    The Children should have never been taken from their homes and parents. Do you all really want government, doctors, etc. telling us how to raise our children? What is abuse and what isn't--I'm amazed that the Amish communities haven't been attacked also/ they make those poor children "work" without all the modern equipment / they only receive 8th grade educations, and are encouraged to marry within the community of Amish citizens. And the pray and obey their elders--oh my! Abuse if ever I saw it!! Tell me the difference?

  • Alex
    June 4, 2008 11:47 p.m.

    Contrast these teenage girls who are domestically capable with so many in this country who can't do squat. I'm confident that you'll get more brainwashing in the Women's Studies Program at Harvard than you ever will in these FLDS communities. They have more going for them than these ugly liberated Harvard Women's Studies graduates who are too superior for children. They are probably happier too. Sure, I hope that they get a good education. Naturally, I pray that they will not be abused and that if any are, that the perpetrators be brought to justice. But then again, I could pray for that for a lot of people.

  • Brorther M
    June 4, 2008 11:23 p.m.

    It seems to me FLDS have every right to raise their children as they see fit, guranteed by the constitution. My sister has been in a contemplative Order of Catholic Nuns since she has been 14 yrs. old.....and she , to this day, has not ever left those high walls built around the monastery, not even once to go to our parents funeral. Should we send the government to close these convent monasteries down. After all she was only a child of 14 when she entered....When I do visit my sister, I see her through a grill, cannot even hug her, but she is not in a prison, she used her free will (free agency) and I respect her and the Monastery. For years my family said she was a prisoner, this ruined her life and opportunities in the future, blah blah blah....guess what? she is the most self actualized, contented person I have ever met in my life? she too lives a communal (not communist) life style and radiates Christ, just like these FLDS women and children I have seen, also....We must pray and respect these FLDS, and not listen to every mal content that have left them.

  • To Gee aren't we smart
    June 4, 2008 11:01 p.m.

    NOT. If teachers spent more time teaching our kids than grumbling about how little they get paid, maybe the kids would have better lanquage skills.

    Social workers have more concern for kids than any teacher that I have ever met.

    I cannot understand how so many people continue to call this religous persicution. Please tell me where in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Koran or any other religous book that it is normal, acceptable or required for male adults to have sex with a minor female, show me the evidence that shows that this is all about religous persicution & not about child rape.

    Reality Check, You are one of the few people that post here that has a clue what is happening to the young girls. Pretty sad that so few people can see or care about this. What is our world coming to.

    PS: Im sure that my grammer & spelling is not the best but after all, I attended pulic school where the teachers spent more time grumbling about how underpaid they were than teaching us. But I guess having poor grammer is better than being raped as a child. Apparetly people these days don't care.

  • OC-CA
    June 4, 2008 9:55 p.m.

    As per Warren Jeff's order these people are forbiden to have/ wear/ see anything of RED color, as that is the color of Evil..
    Is that protection,ignorance or Abuse?
    What will they do they do if a red rose grows at their garden? will they think that Evil is visiting them?
    Besides with Warren out in prison, they still follow his directions and admire him... do the kids know where he is and why?

  • K
    June 4, 2008 8:45 p.m.

    Of course they are worried that the DNA results will be used in a criminal investigation. If they are innocent, they have nothing to worry about.

  • gretchen
    June 4, 2008 8:40 p.m.

    looks like no one on this particular blog has read any of the numerous accounts by ex-flds of the serious repression many members endure..

  • Anonymous
    June 4, 2008 8:10 p.m.

    I don't agree that they make it extremely difficult to leave, apparently they don't even own a gun. What's so difficult to walk out the door if you want to?

  • anonymous
    June 4, 2008 8:03 p.m.

    It's Truly Amazing How People Judge Others After The Desires Of Their Own Hearts.

  • Anonymous
    June 4, 2008 7:30 p.m.

    "'I hope they now know not everyone on the outside is their enemies,' said Jackie Carter, executive director of the High Sky Children's Ranch here that was home to 15 teenage girls."

    Ummm, yeah right, Jackie. I'm pretty sure that the lesson these children will take away from being ripped away from their parents and homes by outsiders is that "not everyone on the outside is their enemies."

  • Gee aren't we smart
    June 4, 2008 7:05 p.m.

    I live in this dumb state of Texas. CPS doesn't protect the children, trust me. I am also a teacher. I'd rather have an FLDS child in my class with a basic education than most of my students who either can't speak English or own more electronic garbage than some small countries. These 'toys' have destroyed their lives. The FLDS kids have now been poisoned by this, and traumatized. Why can't you who are so stuck on polygamy think about the long-term ramifications? Would you rather have a young lady in a dress, or YOUR little girl in a 'hotties' short set (about all you can get at stores these days) at the mall with sex offenders? Sheesh. I'd think it would be clear but then of course, I have a brain.

  • flds girl who grew up in slc
    June 4, 2008 6:44 p.m.

    We know a lot more than flora or carolyn probably ever did. They probably dropped out of school at a young age and gave their teachers trouble enough they didn't want them back. Hey, I might not be brilliant but I am kind of a smarty-pants.

  • realitycheck
    June 4, 2008 5:44 p.m.

    that doesn't mean they need to make it so dificult to do something else.

    my posts are old - some get it and some don't.

    Those that don't must have miserable lives and want the same for thier children. (Not unlike the FLDS mother that say "I had to do it so you will too.")

    Its about freedom of choice, people. If you don't get that, then I can't explain it any further.

  • G
    June 4, 2008 5:14 p.m.

    "Most parents want their children to grow up and be successful, making their mark in the world. The FLDS parents don't want their children to ever go out in the world. That's the difference (as I see it.)"

    There is no universal definition of "successful" either.

    In many families "successful" is a $250,000/year salary.

    But there are some families where "successful" is more about spirituality and the quality of life at home and having lots of kids. The FLDS think that's what their kids will have if they live they like they do. The Amish and other groups think the same way.

  • G
    June 4, 2008 5:05 p.m.

    "Every parent chooses to what to expose and protect their child from. You won't have your child smoke or do drugs so they can "experience" all choices."

    That would be a logical extension of realitycheck's and amber's position. And I heard a prominent actor say he's planning to do exactly that for his son in a few years. I doubt CPS will be kicking in his door.

    By the way, when I was in highschool there were parents hosting drinking parties for their teenage kids, on the theory that it will help them deal with alcohol maturely in college and not binge, etc. CPS didn't visit them either.

    And there are the people that teach their kids that music is sin.

    People should understand that there are a lot of different views on parenting, and within reasonable limits (whatever that is), people should be left alone.

  • realitycheck
    June 4, 2008 4:57 p.m.

    parents are supposed to choose...

    yes, they are. And that's good - they should choose what influences a child gets in their younger years. But the FLDS takes it a step further by making it EXTREMELY difficult to leave and do something of your own choosing.

    All of your examples are of people that could choose to do as they wish. They are not on a guarded compound. They are not told they will go to hell if they don't conform (except the gay Baptist but that doesn't make it right..)

    Most parents want their children to grow up and be successful, making their mark in the world. The FLDS parents don't want their children to ever go out in the world. That's the difference (as I see it.)

  • Parents are suppose to choose
    June 4, 2008 4:44 p.m.

    Every parent chooses to what to expose and protect their child from. You won't have your child smoke or do drugs so they can "experience" all choices. Parents choose to shield their children from negative influences.

    The upper-middle class snobs who live in gated areas and send their kids to private schools -you bet there is pressure on these kids to go into certain professions.

    The inner city kid who lives in poverty - who's mother can't/won't get a job. There's pressure on a lot of these kids to join gangs.

    The Southern kid who's parent would never let them go anywhere but a baptist church - The kid could never feel comfortable being gay.

  • Freddie
    June 4, 2008 4:43 p.m.


    I used to eat my crayons. So what? Proves nothing.

  • mypc
    June 4, 2008 4:40 p.m.

    reality check as usual you must not have read where some lawyers told women that it would be better to not go to the ranch and cps might close their case sooner. It would also mean less fear of a raid in the night.... and now the second wife and children will have no man to help. You see welfare and cps love to break up families and take a long time and lots of hoops to jump through. they are fortunate they did not get convicted in court of abuse so no one would hire them. And job checks will have the criminal case so you cannot get a job where any child goes. Fast food ,babysitting, even walmart.

  • wrz
    June 4, 2008 4:40 p.m.

    >>So - these educated FLDS - where did they go to college? nice try.

  • mistereporter
    June 4, 2008 4:38 p.m.

    amber, you posted at 9:36 a.m. that you were "so sick of reading the comments on the web defending the right of the FLDS to raise their children any way they want to."

    Stop reading the comments, Amber, and you will be sick no more.

    The same Creator who endowed the FLDS parents with those certain inalienable rights -- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- gave them the inalienable right to raise their children any way they want to.

  • realitycheck
    June 4, 2008 2:56 p.m.

    ah - David - you love to get in that little jab, huh. Not gonna work, dude. You'll have to do better than that.

    Fact is, there are more examples than one can count of the FLDS making it as difficult as possible to have a life outside the compound.

    So - these educated FLDS - where did they go to college? nice try.

  • re: No Kidding
    June 4, 2008 2:51 p.m.

    "Law Enforcement needs to learn it is their job to protect the public first
    Like to serve and protect"

    If you dont consider protecting children from pedophiles doing "their job to protect the public", what is your definition of protecting the public?

  • realitycheck
    June 4, 2008 2:49 p.m.

    actually, David, the women are permanently staying away from the ranch. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? You must not have a very good grasp of the FLDS religion. It is oppressive, and the women have no rights.

    They are not allowed to go to college - those that do have to beg. Now, it didn't used to be that way, before Warren jeffs. But it's that way now. And much worse on YFZ than in Colorado City.

    Perhaps your college degree should have been in logic rather than medieval history...

  • But Infants and Toddlers..
    June 4, 2008 2:28 p.m.

    But how could the State take even babies and toddlers? What abuse had they been through to justify taking them from parents at this most formative, sensitive time of their lives? There was no abuse being perpetrated against these young ones. This was unconscionable. And a terrible missuse of government power that should never be allowed to happen again.

  • David
    June 4, 2008 1:43 p.m.

    Isn't it shocking that children were removed from their homes with mothers in hysterics and the CPS workers handed the kids crayons and claimed "children don't know how to use them." In actuality, what child given that scenario would have wanted to color? Forget that the kids already had pictures up and drawn prior to that.

    And RC, I only needed one example to prove that you were wrong regarding the education of FLDS women. There are many such examples, but oddly or relative to me predictably, you failed to acknowledge such. It would seem that some FLDS men and women are quite educated and some are not. I would wager that some have the capacity for that education, and like yourself, some do not.

  • David
    June 4, 2008 1:34 p.m.

    RC, The women are not permanently "not going back to the ranch", but living there in part as a requirement by CPS (once they signed their paperwork they were unable to move back to the ranch or even travel over 100 miles without 48 hours notice to CPS and permission. This was also at the advice of wise legal counsel based on the egregious action that already took place. But you knew that and only altered the truth for your own purpose.
    And no, they didn't get skills to "get out", but to aid the community. Are you even capable of telling the truth? If women wanted to "get out" they had plenty of opportunities. Six women initially entered "safe houses" until they found that wouldn't aid them in getting their children and immediately bolted. So much for "all wanting to leave."
    Please present examples not before me, but before the court of the sole capabilities of "having babies and being fearful". No such evidence was presented by CPS. Again, why lie?
    As for the university attended: ask for a refund. You deserve it.

  • wrz
    June 4, 2008 1:26 p.m.

    "...what about the hundreds of teen girls and boys that only know 2 things - how to have babies and how to be afraid of the world."

    And what about not knowing what a crayon is or how to use them?

  • nezr
    June 4, 2008 1:21 p.m.


    If the society is so abusive and controlling then how would they have gotten those skills in the first place? Are they sneaking out every night to attend college? The nurse in the previos article stated that the reason she is not going back to the ranch right now is because she is hoping that will earn her some goodwill with CPS so that they won't come back and steal her children again.

    And if you consider the mere fact that they are limiting their children's exposure to the world as being abuse then you must consider the Amish abusive as well. In Amish society at age 16 you are to drop out of school and get married or else you are shunned.

  • MoJules
    June 4, 2008 1:05 p.m.

    It is true, they do have Dr.s and nurses, we had Rulon Jeff's come get a C-Pap years ago, he had a personal nurse and body guards with him. I think they came in three SUV's, the c-pap didn't work and they wanted a bi-pap, that would have required him to go to a public sleep study, they said they would figure something out, they wanted a sleep study in his home. Just like any religion, there are different classes, but like the communistic countries, the FLDS doesn't give every member that chance. But it has been stated that traditionally these people only get about an 8th grade education, if CPS does nothing else, they can at least enforce proper and equal education. These people are going to have to learn to work in the world, welfare may not come as easy.

  • realitrycheck
    June 4, 2008 12:12 p.m.

    some of you keep pointing to the RN in the story yesterday and saying "look - look - they have jobs and careers..."

    well, there are only a few women not going back to the ranch, and they set themselves up to get out. If this raid hadn't happened, she would be trying to figure out how to sneak out in the middle of the night. And we'd be reading her book in a few years.

    Stop pointing to the one or two examples of women with a skill, especially since all of them want to get out of the FLDS lifestyle. THATS WHY THEY GOT THE SKILLS - TO GET OUT.

    what about the hundreds of teen girls and boys that only know 2 things - how to have babies and how to be afraid of the world. (And afraid of Willie Jessop...)

  • wrz
    June 4, 2008 12:09 p.m.

    Re: realitcheck re-wrz

    "It has to do with having to opportunity and tools to make informed decisions as you grow up so you can have a future of your own choosing instead to being locked into the future your parents chose."

    Everyone is locked into the future their parents chose to some extent. More than you think.

    "In order for an FLDS woman to have a future of her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE."

    Then escape. The world is full of run-aways who would rather be someplace else doing something else. Would you have them learn the fine art of waitressing or cabaret dancing?

    "...she doesn't have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make informed decisions."

    Very few do... until about mid-life or beyond.

    "The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse."

    Abuse is what CPS does. In this case, anyway,

  • Think!!!!
    June 4, 2008 12:09 p.m.

    VA gal:

    Thank-you for a breathe of "REAL THOUGHT." Your words are so refreshing.

  • Re: G
    June 4, 2008 12:02 p.m.

    Come on now. You know the liberal thought process is just a one way street.
    I'd be happy if CPS had to endure the same torture on their own families that they put on others. It would end all this mess.

  • G
    June 4, 2008 11:47 a.m.

    I'm still amazed to hear liberals talk about how kids should be exposed to every possible way of living. Maybe CPS should take their kids and send them to live with the FLDS. Some of them might like polygamy.

  • Anonymous
    June 4, 2008 11:43 a.m.

    >>What about the lawyers, doctors, social scientists and engineers that might have been

  • Eric
    June 4, 2008 11:41 a.m.

    A future of your own choosing!! What a concept!!
    In truth no one has that power. we all must abide by the covenants of life.
    Thanks to 60 some years of Dr. Spock, the age of permissiveness is upon us and the crop that it bears has arrived.
    As an example.
    Many kids do not see any reason to attend school. The powers that be arrest the parents for the crime of not making your child attend school. If you DO attempt to force your child to go to school, The CPS will arrest you for child abuse and take the kid away. So what future have we choosen? The child has freedom of choice and has chosen wrong as many have But the parent is punished and has no choice. Is the future of your own choosing?? Catch 22 if I ever saw one.

  • What do the children have to say
    June 4, 2008 11:18 a.m.

    I don't believe any one but the children on this. I hope they have many press conferences and describe their experience of being kidnapped at gunpoint, having their privacy invaded and wisked of to prisons far away from home never knowing if they would ever return. LET THE CHILDREN SPEAK !!

    I heard that the toddlers were so traumatized that they will no longer interact with their mothers. The same exact thing happened to Ted Kuzinsky aka Unabomber when he was a toddler and we all know how well that turned out..

  • Rais Your own your own Way.
    June 4, 2008 11:04 a.m.

    In they end, If you believe in a God, Even that Great creator of us all, who holds each and every parent accountable for the raising of their own children. The question is..? Will that God say these children who have impressed the many CPS, and care-givers, interviewers, with their unconditional love, respect, kindness, humility, talents, have been denied the many impressive wonders of the overwhelming abominations of the world and the great success there-in.

  • re: BeeDee
    June 4, 2008 11:04 a.m.

    The difference between the Amish/Hutterites and the FLDS is that the Amish and Hutterites haven't tried to justify child molestation through religion. If the FLDS decided to only allow ADULTS to wed, perhaps they would have a similar experience to the Amish.

  • realitycheck re-wrz
    June 4, 2008 11:03 a.m.

    ah, wrz - you're at it again. You state "Are you saying motherhood is shackling?"

    LOL - we know you understand what we mean, and it has nothing to do with motherhood. Why do you keep going there?

    It has to do with having to opportunity and tools to make informed decisions as you grow up so you can have a future of your own choosing instead to being locked into the future your parents chose. In order for an FLDS woman to have a future of her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE. She cannot just leave, and she doesn't have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make informed decisions. The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse.

    It has to do with freedom of choice, and the FLDS does everything in their power to remove choice and opportunity from the childrens lives. I still think that should be a civil rights violation - just not sure how to make it work without violating the parents rights. So it's not illegal, but it's certainly immoral.

  • David
    June 4, 2008 11:01 a.m.

    I have conversed with FLDS on the computer and my neice has done so in St George. Why do you want to believe that the FLDS isolate themselves? Does that fit your paradigm better?
    As for education, the local public school flunked 25% of the 8th grade class since they were unable to pass their 8th grade proficiency. The FLDS children, on inverse, were above their age level even per Carolyn Jessop.

    For those preaching that it is immoral not to allow your children to mingle, ask yourself when was the last time you really every exposed your own children to anything that wasn't white America. It seems you would prefer the government raise your children. If that's the case, hand them over and CPS would be happy to do so. As for me, I will raise my children with my values, meeting those people that I want them to meet, with a belief system that I hold dear. This is my right as a parent and if you don't like it, tough.

  • FLDS children/Reverend Wright
    June 4, 2008 10:55 a.m.

    Are these not the same thing?

  • BeeDee
    June 4, 2008 10:44 a.m.

    You know, you don't see Pennsylvania going after the Amish, or Montana going after the Hutterites -- and they have lifestyles (outside of the polygamy) that are identical to that practiced by the FLDS, in keeping their children (and lives) seperate from the rest of the world. It's sophomoric to look at these lifestyles, kept seperate from the rest of the world, and say that they're wrong. I'd like proof that the life we lead is right.

  • wrz
    June 4, 2008 10:29 a.m.

    >>I am so sick of reading the comments on the web defending the right of the FLDS to raise their children any way they want to.>If you are programmed to think you are on earth to make babies to increase your chance to get to heaven you don't throw off those ideas in time to have another dream before you are well and truly shackled.

  • Eric Re: Amber
    June 4, 2008 10:17 a.m.

    >>It is one thing to shield your children from video games and sleaze. Its another thing to deny them knowledge of the world so that they will be handicapped in pursuit of any career and unaware of what options exist.

  • realitycheck
    June 4, 2008 10:09 a.m.

    I agree wholeheartedly with gal50. It's exactly whay I've been saying all along, too.

    just thinking II - it's good they can make dresses. Now, are they prepared to work for a famous designer? Or will they sit on a ranch THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, making babies and watering flowers, simply because they have no experience with the outside world. Big world out there - lots of opportunity - which they will miss out on simply because their parents kept them confined.

    disagree gal50 - it's not a matter of teaching children to not trust people outside the family. It's a matter of the parents NEVER letting the children interface with anyone outside the family. That would be like raising a child and never letting them outside of the house. That's abuse.

    amber - YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Thank you for stating what these other posters (except gal50) seem to be missing out of all this.

    Parents can teach their children anything they want, and can confine their movement however they want. It's not illegal, but it is immoral, and it robs the children of any kind of future options or choices. Should be a civil rights violation.

  • Bruce
    June 4, 2008 10:01 a.m.

    "What about the lawyers, doctors, social scientists and engineers that might have been."

    Let see: Raise children to serve God or raise children to serve some corporation or secular society?
    That's a tuffy.

  • Ing
    June 4, 2008 9:57 a.m.

    How is that headline unfortunate?

  • Anonymous
    June 4, 2008 9:37 a.m.

    "Most caregivers enjoyed the FLDS children"

    That is a really unfortunately written headline.

  • amber
    June 4, 2008 9:36 a.m.

    I am so sick of reading the comments on the web defending the right of the FLDS to raise their children any way they want to. It is one thing to shield your children from video games and sleaze. Its another thing to deny them knowledge of the world so that they will be handicapped in pursuit of any career and unaware of what options exist. The children's lives are preempted by the limitations imposed by their parents. They can never recapture the opportunities and vision lost to them by being shielded and molded. What about the lawyers, doctors, social scientists and engineers that might have been. Do their parents have the right to rise them so that they never even know those choices are there for them? If you are programmed to think you are on earth to make babies to increase your chance to get to heaven you don't throw off those ideas in time to have another dream before you are well and truly shackled.

  • Matthew
    June 4, 2008 9:25 a.m.

    Gee, teenage and pre-teenage girls that know how to cook and sew and care for younger children. They must have suffered terrible abuse, NOT. The abused ones are all those other children in the US whose parents let them watch 4+ hours of TV per day and then hour after hour of video games. Those kids don't know how to do anything else. The reason "no child left behind" is doomed is that so many children are being raised like that and they never learn anything or even how to learn.

    I may not approve of the FLDS ignoring laws against polygamy, but at least they aren't such a bunch of hypocrits like the people who think the FLDS parenting is abuse and the "typical" US parent is good.

    Catch a clue people. TV and other modern technology isn't evil but modern technologies are easy to abuse. Teach your children. Nuture your children. Failing to do those things is the real abuse.

  • ME
    June 4, 2008 9:17 a.m.

    Soooo many good comments on this article today. AMEN>

  • p-t-max
    June 4, 2008 9:05 a.m.

    These children saw hundreds of armed strangers come into their homes and herd them on to buses and take them away from their families. Of course they weren't trusting. Yours would be suspicious of strangers, too, if it happened to them, and with good reason.

    Maybe some of them were abused at home. All of them were abused when the state of Texas tore them from their families based on insufficient evidence. None were in immediate danger, and law enforcement knew it, because they waited four or five days after the initial hoax call while they gathered resources to carry out the raid.

    Prosecute and punish the guilty. Let the innocent go free. Texas did it backwards by punishing the innocent first, while trying the alleged perpetrators in the media. They nearly got away with it.

  • disagree gal50
    June 4, 2008 7:59 a.m.

    As a counselor and parent I have to strongly disagree with you. Teaching children not to trust people outside the family is what helps the children be safe. Raising children to trust everybody, or even almost everybody, leaves them open for being abused, which abuse is by far more severe than what they have been taught at home. I have not found that the FLDS children do not trust their mothers, which is most important. Parents give a safe haven for children to explore the world. Not wanting to participate in field trips with people they don't know shows they did not have the security they would have had with their moms around. The abuse they suffered being separate from their mothers will far outweigh the teaching of not to just trust anybody. Taking them with military force was traumatic and the children will have to deal with abandonment issues. Why should they trust people so heartless as CPS and all it accomplices? You might want to do your own research instead of taking AP news at face value - trusting everybody...

  • Bot
    June 4, 2008 7:12 a.m.

    Talk about trust. How do you expect the children to trust "outsiders" when they are forcibly separated from their parents, and lied to? The parents and children were told the mothers were going to a "meeting", and then were forcibly returned to the YFZ Ranch

  • wrz
    June 4, 2008 7:08 a.m.

    >>It's abusive to teach children not to trust anyone outside of their small group because the children are denied the opportunity to be able to be involved with others...

  • RE: gal50
    June 4, 2008 7:00 a.m.

    t's abusive to teach children not to trust anyone outside of their small group.

    Then why are most children taught from a very early are "Don't talk to strangers!" "Stay away from those you don't know"
    This is common stuff and it's done everywhere.
    Give the kids a television?? There are MANY shrinks that would disagree and would rather give the children books and real interaction.

    A real childhood is not parked in front of a tv and given money so they can go on "outings at the mall" or be filled with false expectations of what happens when they "grow up" (video games) Children that are taught to be responsible for their actions are few and far between in our "modern times"

    I would question what group of kids is really suffering from abuse? What book would you rather use to raise children? The Bible? or the world famous Dr Spock on children, (a now known communist)??

  • VA gal
    June 4, 2008 6:59 a.m.

    Apparently my first post was not kind enough so I will try again.

    Children removed from their parents have most certainly experience psychological trauma, the younger the child the worse the trauma. So I would expect the little ones not to trust anyone for a long time. Their world has been shaken, and they don't know where to turn. The older children were simply trying to fill in the void for the younger ones and help them avoid things that might bequestionable in their faith. Maybe they went overboard, but they were children too and their intent was good.

    Teaching children that many of the outside influences of the world are not good, is not abuse, it is parenting. Many parents don't like video games, or soda, or various brands and types of toys. The children are taught to shun those things. This group (in many cases quite rightly) believes that the people outside their group are corrupt and immoral. This raid did not help that perception for anyone.

  • just thining II
    June 4, 2008 6:48 a.m.

    I have stoped commenting on these pages, but I just have to comment on this letter of gal50. what these kids learned is that the outside world truely is unkind. they are jerked from their families, lied to by cps, taken to all parts of the state of texas and siblings separated. you expect them to welcome this with open arms. these are not normal kids. they were given sewing machines to make clothes. what teenage girls in the usa can do this now. did they have patterns to follow? you people outside do not understand their ways. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM WRONG OR ABUSED. I am not flds, but I have been in their homes and I know that they are people who have been looked down upon for years. it is only natural that they would be on the defensive. we have taught them a great lesson that they will remeber for 50 years to come. just as their parents remember the raid in 1950s.

  • No Kidding!
    June 4, 2008 6:04 a.m.

    Seems these Children are not so bad after all
    Law Enforcement needs to learn it is their job to protect the public first
    Like to serve and protect
    The State is using the Cops against the People
    So close to another Waco.

  • Not without a court order!
    June 4, 2008 5:47 a.m.

    "Rolfe told the Deseret News the DNA samples could not be used without a court order."

    Which, in Texas, are printed in gum wrappers.

  • VA gal
    June 4, 2008 5:35 a.m.

    I am certain these children have been psychologically abused. By the judge. She ordered infants as young as 1 yr old into foster care. Tiny children were torn from their mothers arms....Why? Because a few case workers thought they saw some pregnant teenagers. If any psychological abuse happened it was done to them by Judge Walthers and her heartless order.

    Sheltering children from outside influences you deem poisonous is not abuse. It is good parenting. If you think that video games are not good for children, then don't allow them in your house. If you think soda is not good for children, don't let it in your house. That is parenting, not abuse.

    On the other hand I am glad for kind workers that helped these children through a very difficult time. I am thankful for them and I am sure the parents are as well.

  • Anna
    June 4, 2008 1:20 a.m.

    These pathetic children should have never had to expierience this situation. It is no wonder that they would be distrustful of the outside world, after what they had been put through. It sounds like the home workers tried their best to care for these children. Thank goodness for those who were kind to these children after having their mothers torn away from them at gunpoint, the mental health worker's evaluation that the children were treated harshly by many CPS workers. I would be very leery of anyone, too. Many of these children could have been placed together, but, insted were cruelly torn away from siblings. Of course, it makes sense that these children would look up to any older child of their group for comfort, it was all they had, their parents were gone. So, sad. I admire the courage of the older children to watch over the little ones, if related or not.

  • gal50
    June 4, 2008 12:52 a.m.

    Some of the issues these homes normally deal with such as lack of trust among abused kids were present in the FLDS children. In order to establish trust, it may have taken a full year instead of two months. It's abusive to teach children not to trust anyone outside of their small group because the children are denied the opportunity to be able to be involved with others, including those who are wonderful people. They are psychologically abused in that they are presented with a negative view of the world that just isn't real. It seems like many of the workers cared very much about these children, but given what the children were taught it would be hard for some of the children to feel cared for. It is sad that the younger children missed opportunities for field trips due to the fear of the older children. After reading many posts, I think there are many people who underestimate the intangible psychological abuse that these children have suffered and if therapy is not court ordered, will continue to suffer.