gretchen, perhaps some of us have read things about the ex-FLDS that makes them
hardly worth listening to. Read an article written by Flora Jessop's Guardian,
Martha Barlow Jessop, entitled, "The truth About Flora Jessop". Yeah, 'ole
Flora is a real role model all right. If I want to know what a Baptist
believes, I will ask a Baptist, not an ex-Baptist. If I want to know what a
Mormon believes, I will ask a Mormon, not an ex-Mormon. if I want to know what
the FLDS believe, I will ask an FLDS person. I already know why Flora lied
about her experiences; she is hardly believable.
Warren Jeffs wife Annett made her a red checkered dress after he admonished us
to treat the color sacredly. A few people in the community thought she was a
terrible person but she wasn't. Uncle Warren also teaches not to waste the
things Heavenly Father gives us and she was simply using up her faric, she wore
the dress out. God made some beautiful red roses and many lovely red things in
nature. Every FLDS member (including former members) know that red isn't evil it
is sacred. Red is my favorite color, I have a red cell phone, I have some nikes
with a red line on them, my father has a red car and no one is condemning us for
it.Don't believe all that you read or hear against the FLDS people.
To David on June 6th...What does stealing cars and "not paying up"
have to do with anything? All I asked was if anyone has read the book ...and
you appear to have gotten a little defensive. Hmmm... interesting
ok, David - purposeful lying? LOL where did I lie? State ONE fact that I lied
about...you can't. My statements are self-evident. I haven't
mentioned any of the accusations being thrown around. I discussed facts that
FLDS ARE PROUD OF and that I find deplorable. Guess it's a good thing it's a
free country and we can each have our opinion.You've said I lied in
several of your posts. Fact is - you just don't like what I have to say. Must
have hit a nerve. Feeling guilty about robbing your children of their future?
Texas law does not protect the State of Texas from civil rights lawsuits in
federal court. Every family has a good case.The court orders can
only last for so long under Texas law, and the longer they're in effect the more
evidence for malicious prosecution. Once their travel is no longer restricted,
the fearful will file their suits while residing in other states.Others will file in Texas with the threat of retaliation hanging over their
Everyone posting here should go to their local bookstore today and buy a copy of
James Clavell's "The Children's Story" and read it. It's a twenty minute read
that will change your life, and your view of adults who try to manipulate
children (whether FLDS or CPS, take your pick), just get it and read it, now.
There will be no lawsuits. The State of Texas has written their laws in such a
way as to protect themselves from anyone coming back to them in this regard (the
removal of the children). Sure, some of the "adults held against
their will as minors" might be able to pursue a case, but in most cases these
are adult women with children and they would be afraid, should they seeked
regress, the State would "punish" them and remove their children. As long as the State has the given the order and CPS has the power to step in
a remove a child without any further cause, no person (with a child) would dare
to sue the State for anything.
The children have a firm foundation of the love of God and trust in Him. Life
gives us circumstances to be overcome and I am sure they will remember this time
fondly as they forgive the judge and any wrong done by their leaders.I enjoyed the testimony that the girls made matching dresses and sang for the
caretakers. It must have been quite an education to see useful children, kind
and thoughtful, and girls willing to dress alike. I do not expect that they had
a victim mentality. Let us not be too quick to instill an angry
victim mentality upon people. Forgive and trust what God can do even if you go
through horrific circumstances. It is part of the learning process and our
opportunity to choose God's abundant life of love and forgiveness.
I read "Under the Banner of Heaven" as well as a great number of other books
regarding the topic of Polygamy. It doesn't apply to the FLDS since they are
completely separate group. The FLDS don't have a history of stealing cars and
chop shopping them for funds or threatening murder if you "don't pay up." They
also do not murder in-laws and babies because of disagreement regarding the
"Principal."RC, apply your same principal in reverse. If you raise
your child in the FLDS and then expose them to the outside world then give them
a choice they too would pick that which is familiar. The "nerve you hit", as I
have stated repeatedly, is your purposeful lying. There is no need to lie and
degrade a group so that you can feel better about your own life decisions.
zxcvbnm, I could not agree with you more. I stopped believing any of the Jessop
girls when CPS and the D.A. didn't use them as "experts" in the case. If they
don't find them as good witnesses, then why should I.
RE WRZ For all practical purposes a large portion of the exFLDS books have
been printed to various degrees on several web sites and have been discussed on
numerous talk show formats since the raid. The accusations seem over
dramatized and exagerated by the authors and when investigated show little
supporting fact to substantiate the claims. I can see where the average
person would be alarmed by the stories told by the authors but the books belong
on the fiction shelf next to the CPS version of the raid. Water
boarding, escape, and slavery sell well, as do pregnant teens, unclaimed
children, and arsenal of weapons. The reality of the situation looks more like
perhaps a couple people may have taken advantage of a few people at best.
Sensational accusations by disgruntled exmembers led to sensational
overreaction by lawmakers followed by sensational over compensation by state
agencies. As far as buying the books.....I'll wait for the movie, then
not watch it.
Anyone read "Under The Banner of Heaven"...?
***looks like no one on this particular blog has read any of the numerous
accounts by ex-flds of the serious repression many members endure..***You'll find the disgruntled in any society. If they leave they are called
One good thing that will come from all of this is that the welfare system will
no longer have to support many of the FLDS once the lawsuits against the State
of Texas have been settled. The courts need to send a message stronger than
just a slap on the hand that this kind of arbitrary action is no acceptable. If
there is abuse, nail the abuser. If there is welfare fraud, go after the
criminal. However, be very, very careful with families, even if they believe in
a different value system.
I am very happy for the children to be reunited with their families again. The
trama from this experience is going to haunt them for the rest of their lives.
I believe in freedom of religion & the rights of parents to raise
their own children. That is what makes America great. I raised my children to
believe in God, attend church, not to watch TV or waste time playing video
games, to get an education & do something positive in the world. And now they
are raising their children the same way. I have seen pictures of
these FLDS children, they are well fed from gardens of home grown foods, clean,
dressed in clothes made by their moms. The children learned to help in the
garden, and do chores. The children are home schooled Sounds like how my mom,
grandmother & great grandparents raised all their children. I
also believe that laws of the land must be obeyed and that if such laws where
broken then those specific cases be handled individually. Not as a
neighborhood.I am pleased that our courts have ruled in favor of the
families being reunited.
wow - guess I hit a nerve on ediddy and in-the-know.You may not like
what I am saying, but at least I'm not making accusations I can't back up. Mine
are self-evident.You raise your children in isolation. You "protect"
them from the world. The (unfortunate) result of that is they are not prepared
to go out in the world and will most likely stay within your ranks. I say
unfortunate, you say fortunate. And that is because if the children knew the
REAL world, they would want to partake in it, not hide from it, and that would
reduce your ranks, which is the last thing you want. I understand why you do
it. But it's unfair to the child.You think it's fair, and good. I
think you are robbing the child of a future of his/her own choosing.Ask yourself this: If you raised your child out in the world, as most of us
do, and then told the child (at 18 or so) that they now have the choice to move
to YFZ and live there, or they can go out into the world - their choice - which
would they choose? Self-evident.
FLDS Guy:"We are doing everything we can to provide a good education
for our children in a clean, safe environment. There has been some little
mention in the news about how most of the children they tested were at or above
grade level. I just wonder, how many "out there" can say the same? "Good for you. I can't say that I've ever made the personal acquaintance of
anyone from your community (although I've passed through Colorado City and
Hillsdale a couple of times), but I am willing to give you the fair treatment
that my forefathers never got when they practiced polygamy. Just keep it clean
and take care of your wives and children and you will never have any beef from
"And it doesn't apply when the CPS comes after you, whether you are are 13
or 29."I think CPS is going to be regretting their raid pretty soon.
For one, I'm looking forward to some state employee going to prison for the kid
in the stroller they left alone for 18 hours.
Amber -- you were spot-on correct. I totally agree. Those who made comments
about mothers being shackled apparently didn't read your comment correctly.
They totally didn't "get" what you were saying.
"Freedom of choice" is what you get when you turn 21. It doesn't apply to
minors."And it doesn't apply when the CPS comes after you, whether
you are are 13 or 29.
@realitycheck: One thing is sharply obvious. You either ex-FLDS or are an
apologist for the Carolyn Jessops of the world. Your axe is constantly grinding
and no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever change your mind. The rest
of us are willing to use our own intellect and observation to sift through
information that differs markedly from your rantings. If we threw out the high
and low score in this contest, you would be history, over the top in bias.
Oh bother, RC is again spouting bigoted lies about the FLDS. Why did CPS return
to the ranch for a second attempt at a raid? Because not all children were at
the ranch at the time of the first raid. So, RC's outlandish fantasy that FLDS
children do not see the outside world is nullified.RC claims that
the FLDS teach about the principal of hell to those that don't follow certain
principles. But, he fails to mention that his own belief damns me, an agnostic
to hell in a handbasket...don't you RC? He then spouts about FLDS parents
not wanting their children to "go out into the world" again despite the fact
that FLDS children are already exposed to the world based on not only the second
attempt at a raid by CPS to get at children not on the ranch at the time, but
evidenced by St. George visits which are seemingly quite often.RC
doesn't need facts because he gladly makes up his own.
To Ed Whalen: And evil is when bigots like you spout your venom against a people
you know little or nothing about. I pray they stay right in Texas, I sure would
not leave my Temple and all I worked for, let the locals move LOL, I am serious,
let them move. And By the way "Eddie"; who died and made you God, dictating what
others in another religion should or should not do. And who the h--- asked you
for your "opinion"? I am a Jew and these folk were singled out from the
beginning...The El Dorado Success, the local papaer would print stories about a
crematorium in the temple, and this religious persecution is so reminiscent of
the NAZI'S...WAKE UP AMERICA, IF YOU DO NOT DEFEND THE FLDS, YOU WILL BE
FIGHTING FOR YOUR CHILDREN NEXT. It is people like you that made them
insular...they didn't live this way in utah and colorado...that wall is for
their protection, just like walls were built around NUNs Monasteries FOR
CENTURIES TO PROTECT THEM...Do you work for CPS Ed? Or Law enforcement? You
don't stand a chance, the Lord God is on the side of the FLDS...pathetic man
"Its about freedom of choice, people. If you don't get that, then I can't
explain it any further.""Freedom of choice" is what you get when you
turn 21. It doesn't apply to minors.
Gee, the FLDS children showed self-discipline, self-reliance a firm sense of
responsibility, both for themselves and also towards the younger children and
many, many skills that the majority of children in the USA don't have unless you
wish to count pushing buttons on video games.Gee, that's NOT the way
abused children generally behave in such settings.And stop with the
FLDS being uneducated; we've seen nurses, agricultural experts, girls who can
make their own clothes and expertise in construction, engineering and even
"horrors" PUBLIC RELATIONS.Not so bad for an "isolated" community,
"If I'd have care of one of these kids for a while I would have made a dogged
effort to show that the world beyond the yfz prison gate is not inherently
evil"Too late, "Evil" is when men with machine guns from "the world
beyond," come and take you away from your family. The kids now know what evil
If I'd have care of one of these kids for a while I would have made a dogged
effort to show that the world beyond the yfz prison gate is not inherently
evil, and as often as possible instilled in them that they are individuals who
can be whatever they want. Including but not limited to NOT flds. Here's hoping
at least some of them escape in the future. Mind you, now that they are talking
concession to some of the prison practices, I imagine they're looking at the map
for greater isolation somewhere else.
Another Utah paper has this headline for a story;"Utah schools lead
nation in junk food availability"I have a great respect for any
parents who love their kids enough to take the time and energy needed to provide
only healthy food to to them, and greatly limit the intake of food (junk food)
which is known to cause obesity and to interfere with optimal physical and
mental development.The FLDS do make the effort to provide healthy
food. I'm of a different faith and I do the same for my kids. Just that one fact
alone, when I learned of it from the media about the FLDS, indicated to me that
the leaks to the media (broken bones, cyanide poisoning, no playing by children,
etc) from the CPS, suggesting "child abuse," were likely to be totally bogus,
and in the large extent, we are discovering that my suspicions were correct. The
FLDS are truly "good parents," whether or not one chooses to believe in or
follow their religious philosophy.
Reality check is wrong in SO many ways.1. Have you EVER met Willie Jessop?
I have. He is the W in R and W Excavating.(R is for Royce Jessop). Their company
owns over FORTY gigantic Trac hoes, back hoes etc. Their company does work and
is well respected all over the southwest, az, ca, ut, tx etc. Most of their
operators, if not all are young men that were taught the skill by dads, uncles
etc.Is this not a valuable skill, unlike many that go the "college" route for
5-10 years and decide they didn't obtain a useful degree?2. I've seen many
of the women and girls shopping and eating in my city of St. George. They didn't
run or yell to the police for help.3. I've seen FLDS couples in the movie
theaters, so they aren't locked up.4. I'm LDS and not of the FLDS.5.
I was even asked to visit and speak in their church years ago, and I'm an
"outside influence" so they do have some outsiders. Most of you don't
have a clue as to the FLDS, I do. Acouple other things later.
If someone tries to come and take my kids because they they don't like the type
of toys I give my children, they are in for real battle.
FLDS_Guy,The "red" issue came about because of Carolyn Jessop's book,
ESCAPE. Ironically, it was that which caused me to completely question her
words and the action of TX authorities. She states that Warren gave the
doctrine that only Jesus should wear the royal color red. The response was that
one woman went out and pulled her red rose bush, replacing it with a pink one.
Other women immediately got rid of the red dresses while others still continued
to wear their red dresses until they wore out. It seems only I noticed that
this is proof of individuality over group-think which was claimed.Those
that post that all little girls will be forced to marry old man, are delusional
gossips, especially considering there is no proof of any and one that might
possible be victim. These are the same people that ignore that in TX a 14 year
old gets pregnant every 10 hours. They bizarrely feel that perpetuating this
false beliefs elevates their own status. It does, but that seems to be the
I would have to agree with Alex. I think in this culture women are pushed to
see children as a burden not a blessing. Often women who pursue careers first
before having kids end up 37 years old in a fertility clinic unable to have
children with their hearts broken. Many women have told me that
what has brought them the most joy in this life was their families. Serving
them, taking care of the little ones. Even doing the seeming the insignificant
work of cleaning the home. If these families want to teach their young ladies
how to be good mothers, good wives, and domestic skills I fail to see how that
is abuse. The mothers are simply showing the daughters what has brought them
the most joy in their lives.
"As per Warren Jeff's order these people are forbiden to have/ wear/ see
anything of RED color, as that is the color of Evil.."When, oh, WHEN
will people stop spreading false information? We just avoid bright red clothing
-- that's it. And it's certainly NOT the color of evil, but a sacred color. I
would ask where people get such information from, but I already have a very good
idea.Alex,I couldn't have said it better myself. We are doing
everything we can to provide a good education for our children in a clean, safe
environment. There has been some little mention in the news about how most of
the children they tested were at or above grade level. I just wonder, how many
"out there" can say the same?Why do people keep ranting on about how
all our girls are set to be married off at age 14 or younger to some old geezer?
It's not true. They are now down to ONE girl who "might" have been abused. I
can't wait until that one's also proven false (though that does seem backwards
to have to prove it false rather than true.)
Let's get one thing straight, this entire situation was a damned if they do,
damned if they don't. Obviously taking very little children away from their
mothers was questionable. There was no immediate threat to the very little ones.
On the other hand, the teenage girls were at risk and STILL ARE. This was a case for Soloman. But I doubt the mothers would have given up the
children to the "other women." They would rather see the kid cut in two rather
than be destroyed by the big bad outside world. I don't envy any
party in this case....a case that goes on.
So many intelligent comments posted on this story, I am proud of many of the
people who post here and hope it is at least a small step to enlightening the
general public.Being an educator by profession I have seen the Utah
version of CPS workers come and make presentations to first graders in a local
public school district.The friendly young woman does a wonderful job of
gaining the children's trust and teaches them what can fit the profiles of a
physical or emotional abuser. Effective use is made of charts and pictures and
cartoon characters are shown of nice happy faces and the potential abusers,
which are depicted as cruel and angry. The children are asked which cartoon
characters will not abuse them and they pick the happy faces. The children are
asked which cartoon adults might be abusive and they are guided to choose the
stern and angry faces. The children are asked what kind of tone of voice a
person might use who does not abuse children and they say a happy voice; then
they are asked who would might be an abuser of children, and they say it is
those with an angry voice...
The Children should have never been taken from their homes and parents. Do you
all really want government, doctors, etc. telling us how to raise our children?
What is abuse and what isn't--I'm amazed that the Amish communities haven't been
attacked also/ they make those poor children "work" without all the modern
equipment / they only receive 8th grade educations, and are encouraged to marry
within the community of Amish citizens. And the pray and obey their elders--oh
my! Abuse if ever I saw it!! Tell me the difference?
Contrast these teenage girls who are domestically capable with so many in this
country who can't do squat. I'm confident that you'll get more brainwashing in
the Women's Studies Program at Harvard than you ever will in these FLDS
communities. They have more going for them than these ugly liberated Harvard
Women's Studies graduates who are too superior for children. They are probably
happier too. Sure, I hope that they get a good education. Naturally, I pray
that they will not be abused and that if any are, that the perpetrators be
brought to justice. But then again, I could pray for that for a lot of people.
It seems to me FLDS have every right to raise their children as they see fit,
guranteed by the constitution. My sister has been in a contemplative Order of
Catholic Nuns since she has been 14 yrs. old.....and she , to this day, has not
ever left those high walls built around the monastery, not even once to go to
our parents funeral. Should we send the government to close these convent
monasteries down. After all she was only a child of 14 when she entered....When
I do visit my sister, I see her through a grill, cannot even hug her, but she is
not in a prison, she used her free will (free agency) and I respect her and the
Monastery. For years my family said she was a prisoner, this ruined her life
and opportunities in the future, blah blah blah....guess what? she is the most
self actualized, contented person I have ever met in my life? she too lives a
communal (not communist) life style and radiates Christ, just like these FLDS
women and children I have seen, also....We must pray and respect these FLDS, and
not listen to every mal content that have left them.
NOT. If teachers spent more time teaching our kids than grumbling about how
little they get paid, maybe the kids would have better lanquage skills. Social workers have more concern for kids than any teacher that I have
ever met. I cannot understand how so many people continue to call
this religous persicution. Please tell me where in the Bible, Book of Mormon,
Koran or any other religous book that it is normal, acceptable or required for
male adults to have sex with a minor female, show me the evidence that shows
that this is all about religous persicution & not about child rape. Reality Check, You are one of the few people that post here that has a clue
what is happening to the young girls. Pretty sad that so few people can see or
care about this. What is our world coming to.PS: Im sure that my
grammer & spelling is not the best but after all, I attended pulic school where
the teachers spent more time grumbling about how underpaid they were than
teaching us. But I guess having poor grammer is better than being raped as a
child. Apparetly people these days don't care.
As per Warren Jeff's order these people are forbiden to have/ wear/ see anything
of RED color, as that is the color of Evil..Is that protection,ignorance
or Abuse?What will they do they do if a red rose grows at their garden?
will they think that Evil is visiting them? Besides with Warren out in
prison, they still follow his directions and admire him... do the kids know
where he is and why?
Of course they are worried that the DNA results will be used in a criminal
investigation. If they are innocent, they have nothing to worry about.
looks like no one on this particular blog has read any of the numerous accounts
by ex-flds of the serious repression many members endure..
I don't agree that they make it extremely difficult to leave, apparently they
don't even own a gun. What's so difficult to walk out the door if you want
It's Truly Amazing How People Judge Others After The Desires Of Their Own
"'I hope they now know not everyone on the outside is their enemies,' said
Jackie Carter, executive director of the High Sky Children's Ranch here that was
home to 15 teenage girls."Ummm, yeah right, Jackie. I'm pretty sure
that the lesson these children will take away from being ripped away from their
parents and homes by outsiders is that "not everyone on the outside is their
I live in this dumb state of Texas. CPS doesn't protect the children, trust me.
I am also a teacher. I'd rather have an FLDS child in my class with a basic
education than most of my students who either can't speak English or own more
electronic garbage than some small countries. These 'toys' have destroyed their
lives. The FLDS kids have now been poisoned by this, and traumatized. Why can't
you who are so stuck on polygamy think about the long-term ramifications? Would
you rather have a young lady in a dress, or YOUR little girl in a 'hotties'
short set (about all you can get at stores these days) at the mall with sex
offenders? Sheesh. I'd think it would be clear but then of course, I have a
We know a lot more than flora or carolyn probably ever did. They probably
dropped out of school at a young age and gave their teachers trouble enough they
didn't want them back. Hey, I might not be brilliant but I am kind of a
that doesn't mean they need to make it so dificult to do something else.my posts are old - some get it and some don't. Those that
don't must have miserable lives and want the same for thier children. (Not
unlike the FLDS mother that say "I had to do it so you will too.")Its about freedom of choice, people. If you don't get that, then I can't
explain it any further.
"Most parents want their children to grow up and be successful, making their
mark in the world. The FLDS parents don't want their children to ever go out in
the world. That's the difference (as I see it.)"There is no
universal definition of "successful" either. In many families
"successful" is a $250,000/year salary. But there are some families
where "successful" is more about spirituality and the quality of life at home
and having lots of kids. The FLDS think that's what their kids will have if they
live they like they do. The Amish and other groups think the same way.
"Every parent chooses to what to expose and protect their child from. You won't
have your child smoke or do drugs so they can "experience" all choices."That would be a logical extension of realitycheck's and amber's
position. And I heard a prominent actor say he's planning to do exactly that for
his son in a few years. I doubt CPS will be kicking in his door. By
the way, when I was in highschool there were parents hosting drinking parties
for their teenage kids, on the theory that it will help them deal with alcohol
maturely in college and not binge, etc. CPS didn't visit them either. And there are the people that teach their kids that music is sin. People should understand that there are a lot of different views on parenting,
and within reasonable limits (whatever that is), people should be left alone.
parents are supposed to choose...yes, they are. And that's good -
they should choose what influences a child gets in their younger years. But the
FLDS takes it a step further by making it EXTREMELY difficult to leave and do
something of your own choosing.All of your examples are of people
that could choose to do as they wish. They are not on a guarded compound. They
are not told they will go to hell if they don't conform (except the gay Baptist
but that doesn't make it right..)Most parents want their children to
grow up and be successful, making their mark in the world. The FLDS parents
don't want their children to ever go out in the world. That's the difference
(as I see it.)
Every parent chooses to what to expose and protect their child from. You won't
have your child smoke or do drugs so they can "experience" all choices. Parents
choose to shield their children from negative influences.The
upper-middle class snobs who live in gated areas and send their kids to private
schools -you bet there is pressure on these kids to go into certain
professions.The inner city kid who lives in poverty - who's mother
can't/won't get a job. There's pressure on a lot of these kids to join
gangs.The Southern kid who's parent would never let them go anywhere
but a baptist church - The kid could never feel comfortable being gay.
wrz: I used to eat my crayons. So what? Proves nothing.
reality check as usual you must not have read where some lawyers told women that
it would be better to not go to the ranch and cps might close their case sooner.
It would also mean less fear of a raid in the night.... and now the second wife
and children will have no man to help. You see welfare and cps love to break up
families and take a long time and lots of hoops to jump through. they are
fortunate they did not get convicted in court of abuse so no one would hire
them. And job checks will have the criminal case so you cannot get a job where
any child goes. Fast food ,babysitting, even walmart.
>>So - these educated FLDS - where did they go to college? nice try.
amber, you posted at 9:36 a.m. that you were "so sick of reading the comments on
the web defending the right of the FLDS to raise their children any way they
want to."Stop reading the comments, Amber, and you will be sick no
more.The same Creator who endowed the FLDS parents with those
certain inalienable rights -- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness --
gave them the inalienable right to raise their children any way they want to.
ah - David - you love to get in that little jab, huh. Not gonna work, dude.
You'll have to do better than that.Fact is, there are more examples
than one can count of the FLDS making it as difficult as possible to have a life
outside the compound.So - these educated FLDS - where did they go to
college? nice try.
"Law Enforcement needs to learn it is their job to protect the public firstLike to serve and protect"If you dont consider protecting children
from pedophiles doing "their job to protect the public", what is your definition
of protecting the public?
actually, David, the women are permanently staying away from the ranch. Why is
that so hard for you to grasp? You must not have a very good grasp of the FLDS
religion. It is oppressive, and the women have no rights. They are
not allowed to go to college - those that do have to beg. Now, it didn't used
to be that way, before Warren jeffs. But it's that way now. And much worse on
YFZ than in Colorado City.Perhaps your college degree should have
been in logic rather than medieval history...
But how could the State take even babies and toddlers? What abuse had they been
through to justify taking them from parents at this most formative, sensitive
time of their lives? There was no abuse being perpetrated against these young
ones. This was unconscionable. And a terrible missuse of government power that
should never be allowed to happen again.
Isn't it shocking that children were removed from their homes with mothers in
hysterics and the CPS workers handed the kids crayons and claimed "children
don't know how to use them." In actuality, what child given that scenario would
have wanted to color? Forget that the kids already had pictures up and drawn
prior to that.And RC, I only needed one example to prove that you
were wrong regarding the education of FLDS women. There are many such examples,
but oddly or relative to me predictably, you failed to acknowledge such. It
would seem that some FLDS men and women are quite educated and some are not. I
would wager that some have the capacity for that education, and like yourself,
some do not.
RC, The women are not permanently "not going back to the ranch", but living
there in part as a requirement by CPS (once they signed their paperwork they
were unable to move back to the ranch or even travel over 100 miles without 48
hours notice to CPS and permission. This was also at the advice of wise legal
counsel based on the egregious action that already took place. But you knew
that and only altered the truth for your own purpose.And no, they didn't
get skills to "get out", but to aid the community. Are you even capable of
telling the truth? If women wanted to "get out" they had plenty of
opportunities. Six women initially entered "safe houses" until they found that
wouldn't aid them in getting their children and immediately bolted. So much for
"all wanting to leave."Please present examples not before me, but before
the court of the sole capabilities of "having babies and being fearful". No
such evidence was presented by CPS. Again, why lie?As for the university
attended: ask for a refund. You deserve it.
"...what about the hundreds of teen girls and boys that only know 2 things - how
to have babies and how to be afraid of the world."And what about not
knowing what a crayon is or how to use them?
realitrycheck:If the society is so abusive and controlling then how
would they have gotten those skills in the first place? Are they sneaking out
every night to attend college? The nurse in the previos article stated that the
reason she is not going back to the ranch right now is because she is hoping
that will earn her some goodwill with CPS so that they won't come back and steal
her children again.And if you consider the mere fact that they are
limiting their children's exposure to the world as being abuse then you must
consider the Amish abusive as well. In Amish society at age 16 you are to drop
out of school and get married or else you are shunned.
It is true, they do have Dr.s and nurses, we had Rulon Jeff's come get a C-Pap
years ago, he had a personal nurse and body guards with him. I think they came
in three SUV's, the c-pap didn't work and they wanted a bi-pap, that would have
required him to go to a public sleep study, they said they would figure
something out, they wanted a sleep study in his home. Just like any religion,
there are different classes, but like the communistic countries, the FLDS
doesn't give every member that chance. But it has been stated that
traditionally these people only get about an 8th grade education, if CPS does
nothing else, they can at least enforce proper and equal education. These
people are going to have to learn to work in the world, welfare may not come as
some of you keep pointing to the RN in the story yesterday and saying "look -
look - they have jobs and careers..." well, there are only a few
women not going back to the ranch, and they set themselves up to get out. If
this raid hadn't happened, she would be trying to figure out how to sneak out in
the middle of the night. And we'd be reading her book in a few years.Stop pointing to the one or two examples of women with a skill, especially
since all of them want to get out of the FLDS lifestyle. THATS WHY THEY GOT THE
SKILLS - TO GET OUT.what about the hundreds of teen girls and boys
that only know 2 things - how to have babies and how to be afraid of the world.
(And afraid of Willie Jessop...)
Re: realitcheck re-wrz"It has to do with having to opportunity and
tools to make informed decisions as you grow up so you can have a future of your
own choosing instead to being locked into the future your parents chose."Everyone is locked into the future their parents chose to some extent.
More than you think."In order for an FLDS woman to have a future of
her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE."Then escape. The world is full
of run-aways who would rather be someplace else doing something else. Would you
have them learn the fine art of waitressing or cabaret dancing?"...she doesn't have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make
informed decisions."Very few do... until about mid-life or
beyond."The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse."Abuse is what CPS does. In this case, anyway,
VA gal:Thank-you for a breathe of "REAL THOUGHT." Your words are so
Come on now. You know the liberal thought process is just a one way street.
I'd be happy if CPS had to endure the same torture on their own
families that they put on others. It would end all this mess.
I'm still amazed to hear liberals talk about how kids should be exposed to every
possible way of living. Maybe CPS should take their kids and send them to live
with the FLDS. Some of them might like polygamy.
>>What about the lawyers, doctors, social scientists and engineers that might
A future of your own choosing!! What a concept!!In truth no one has that
power. we all must abide by the covenants of life. Thanks to 60 some years
of Dr. Spock, the age of permissiveness is upon us and the crop that it bears
has arrived. As an example.Many kids do not see any reason to attend
school. The powers that be arrest the parents for the crime of not making your
child attend school. If you DO attempt to force your child to go to school, The
CPS will arrest you for child abuse and take the kid away. So what future have
we choosen? The child has freedom of choice and has chosen wrong as many have
But the parent is punished and has no choice. Is the future of your own
choosing?? Catch 22 if I ever saw one.
I don't believe any one but the children on this. I hope they have many press
conferences and describe their experience of being kidnapped at gunpoint, having
their privacy invaded and wisked of to prisons far away from home never knowing
if they would ever return. LET THE CHILDREN SPEAK !!I heard that the
toddlers were so traumatized that they will no longer interact with their
mothers. The same exact thing happened to Ted Kuzinsky aka Unabomber when he was
a toddler and we all know how well that turned out..
In they end, If you believe in a God, Even that Great creator of us all, who
holds each and every parent accountable for the raising of their own children.
The question is..? Will that God say these children who have impressed the many
CPS, and care-givers, interviewers, with their unconditional love, respect,
kindness, humility, talents, have been denied the many impressive wonders of the
overwhelming abominations of the world and the great success there-in.
The difference between the Amish/Hutterites and the FLDS is that the Amish and
Hutterites haven't tried to justify child molestation through religion. If the
FLDS decided to only allow ADULTS to wed, perhaps they would have a similar
experience to the Amish.
ah, wrz - you're at it again. You state "Are you saying motherhood is
shackling?"LOL - we know you understand what we mean, and it has
nothing to do with motherhood. Why do you keep going there?It has
to do with having to opportunity and tools to make informed decisions as you
grow up so you can have a future of your own choosing instead to being locked
into the future your parents chose. In order for an FLDS woman to have a future
of her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE. She cannot just leave, and she doesn't
have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make informed decisions.
The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse.It has to do with
freedom of choice, and the FLDS does everything in their power to remove choice
and opportunity from the childrens lives. I still think that should be a civil
rights violation - just not sure how to make it work without violating the
parents rights. So it's not illegal, but it's certainly immoral.
I have conversed with FLDS on the computer and my neice has done so in St
George. Why do you want to believe that the FLDS isolate themselves? Does that
fit your paradigm better? As for education, the local public school
flunked 25% of the 8th grade class since they were unable to pass their 8th
grade proficiency. The FLDS children, on inverse, were above their age level
even per Carolyn Jessop.For those preaching that it is immoral not
to allow your children to mingle, ask yourself when was the last time you really
every exposed your own children to anything that wasn't white America. It seems
you would prefer the government raise your children. If that's the case, hand
them over and CPS would be happy to do so. As for me, I will raise my children
with my values, meeting those people that I want them to meet, with a belief
system that I hold dear. This is my right as a parent and if you don't like it,
Are these not the same thing?
You know, you don't see Pennsylvania going after the Amish, or Montana going
after the Hutterites -- and they have lifestyles (outside of the polygamy) that
are identical to that practiced by the FLDS, in keeping their children (and
lives) seperate from the rest of the world. It's sophomoric to look at these
lifestyles, kept seperate from the rest of the world, and say that they're
wrong. I'd like proof that the life we lead is right.
>>I am so sick of reading the comments on the web defending the right of the
FLDS to raise their children any way they want to.>If you are programmed to
think you are on earth to make babies to increase your chance to get to heaven
you don't throw off those ideas in time to have another dream before you are
well and truly shackled.
>>It is one thing to shield your children from video games and sleaze. Its
another thing to deny them knowledge of the world so that they will be
handicapped in pursuit of any career and unaware of what options exist.
I agree wholeheartedly with gal50. It's exactly whay I've been saying all
along, too.just thinking II - it's good they can make dresses. Now,
are they prepared to work for a famous designer? Or will they sit on a ranch
THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, making babies and watering flowers, simply because they
have no experience with the outside world. Big world out there - lots of
opportunity - which they will miss out on simply because their parents kept them
confined.disagree gal50 - it's not a matter of teaching children to
not trust people outside the family. It's a matter of the parents NEVER letting
the children interface with anyone outside the family. That would be like
raising a child and never letting them outside of the house. That's abuse.amber - YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Thank you for stating what these other
posters (except gal50) seem to be missing out of all this.Parents
can teach their children anything they want, and can confine their movement
however they want. It's not illegal, but it is immoral, and it robs the
children of any kind of future options or choices. Should be a civil rights
"What about the lawyers, doctors, social scientists and engineers that might
have been."Let see: Raise children to serve God or raise children
to serve some corporation or secular society?That's a tuffy.
How is that headline unfortunate?
"Most caregivers enjoyed the FLDS children"That is a really
unfortunately written headline.
I am so sick of reading the comments on the web defending the right of the FLDS
to raise their children any way they want to. It is one thing to shield your
children from video games and sleaze. Its another thing to deny them knowledge
of the world so that they will be handicapped in pursuit of any career and
unaware of what options exist. The children's lives are preempted by the
limitations imposed by their parents. They can never recapture the opportunities
and vision lost to them by being shielded and molded. What about the lawyers,
doctors, social scientists and engineers that might have been. Do their parents
have the right to rise them so that they never even know those choices are there
for them? If you are programmed to think you are on earth to make babies to
increase your chance to get to heaven you don't throw off those ideas in time to
have another dream before you are well and truly shackled.
Gee, teenage and pre-teenage girls that know how to cook and sew and care for
younger children. They must have suffered terrible abuse, NOT. The abused ones
are all those other children in the US whose parents let them watch 4+ hours of
TV per day and then hour after hour of video games. Those kids don't know how
to do anything else. The reason "no child left behind" is doomed is that so
many children are being raised like that and they never learn anything or even
how to learn.I may not approve of the FLDS ignoring laws against
polygamy, but at least they aren't such a bunch of hypocrits like the people who
think the FLDS parenting is abuse and the "typical" US parent is good.Catch a clue people. TV and other modern technology isn't evil but modern
technologies are easy to abuse. Teach your children. Nuture your children.
Failing to do those things is the real abuse.
Soooo many good comments on this article today. AMEN>
These children saw hundreds of armed strangers come into their homes and herd
them on to buses and take them away from their families. Of course they weren't
trusting. Yours would be suspicious of strangers, too, if it happened to them,
and with good reason. Maybe some of them were abused at home. All of
them were abused when the state of Texas tore them from their families based on
insufficient evidence. None were in immediate danger, and law enforcement knew
it, because they waited four or five days after the initial hoax call while they
gathered resources to carry out the raid. Prosecute and punish the
guilty. Let the innocent go free. Texas did it backwards by punishing the
innocent first, while trying the alleged perpetrators in the media. They nearly
got away with it.
As a counselor and parent I have to strongly disagree with you. Teaching
children not to trust people outside the family is what helps the children be
safe. Raising children to trust everybody, or even almost everybody, leaves them
open for being abused, which abuse is by far more severe than what they have
been taught at home. I have not found that the FLDS children do not trust their
mothers, which is most important. Parents give a safe haven for children to
explore the world. Not wanting to participate in field trips with people they
don't know shows they did not have the security they would have had with their
moms around. The abuse they suffered being separate from their mothers will far
outweigh the teaching of not to just trust anybody. Taking them with military
force was traumatic and the children will have to deal with abandonment issues.
Why should they trust people so heartless as CPS and all it accomplices? You
might want to do your own research instead of taking AP news at face value -
Talk about trust. How do you expect the children to trust "outsiders" when they
are forcibly separated from their parents, and lied to? The parents and
children were told the mothers were going to a "meeting", and then were forcibly
returned to the YFZ Ranch
>>It's abusive to teach children not to trust anyone outside of their small
group because the children are denied the opportunity to be able to be involved
t's abusive to teach children not to trust anyone outside of their small
group.Really??Then why are most children taught from a very
early are "Don't talk to strangers!" "Stay away from those you don't know"This is common stuff and it's done everywhere. Give the kids a
television?? There are MANY shrinks that would disagree and would rather give
the children books and real interaction.A real childhood is not
parked in front of a tv and given money so they can go on "outings at the mall"
or be filled with false expectations of what happens when they "grow up" (video
games) Children that are taught to be responsible for their actions are few and
far between in our "modern times"I would question what group of kids
is really suffering from abuse? What book would you rather use to raise
children? The Bible? or the world famous Dr Spock on children, (a now known
Apparently my first post was not kind enough so I will try again. Children removed from their parents have most certainly experience
psychological trauma, the younger the child the worse the trauma. So I would
expect the little ones not to trust anyone for a long time. Their world has
been shaken, and they don't know where to turn. The older children were simply
trying to fill in the void for the younger ones and help them avoid things that
might bequestionable in their faith. Maybe they went overboard, but they were
children too and their intent was good. Teaching children that many
of the outside influences of the world are not good, is not abuse, it is
parenting. Many parents don't like video games, or soda, or various brands and
types of toys. The children are taught to shun those things. This group (in
many cases quite rightly) believes that the people outside their group are
corrupt and immoral. This raid did not help that perception for anyone.
I have stoped commenting on these pages, but I just have to comment on this
letter of gal50. what these kids learned is that the outside world truely is
unkind. they are jerked from their families, lied to by cps, taken to all parts
of the state of texas and siblings separated. you expect them to welcome this
with open arms. these are not normal kids. they were given sewing machines to
make clothes. what teenage girls in the usa can do this now. did they have
patterns to follow? you people outside do not understand their ways. THAT DOES
NOT MAKE THEM WRONG OR ABUSED. I am not flds, but I have been in their homes and
I know that they are people who have been looked down upon for years. it is only
natural that they would be on the defensive. we have taught them a great lesson
that they will remeber for 50 years to come. just as their parents remember the
raid in 1950s.
Seems these Children are not so bad after allLaw Enforcement needs to
learn it is their job to protect the public firstLike to serve and
protectThe State is using the Cops against the PeopleSo close to
"Rolfe told the Deseret News the DNA samples could not be used without a court
order."Which, in Texas, are printed in gum wrappers.
I am certain these children have been psychologically abused. By the judge.
She ordered infants as young as 1 yr old into foster care. Tiny children were
torn from their mothers arms....Why? Because a few case workers thought they
saw some pregnant teenagers. If any psychological abuse happened it was done to
them by Judge Walthers and her heartless order.Sheltering children
from outside influences you deem poisonous is not abuse. It is good parenting.
If you think that video games are not good for children, then don't allow them
in your house. If you think soda is not good for children, don't let it in your
house. That is parenting, not abuse. On the other hand I am glad
for kind workers that helped these children through a very difficult time. I am
thankful for them and I am sure the parents are as well.
These pathetic children should have never had to expierience this situation. It
is no wonder that they would be distrustful of the outside world, after what
they had been put through. It sounds like the home workers tried their best to
care for these children. Thank goodness for those who were kind to these
children after having their mothers torn away from them at gunpoint, the mental
health worker's evaluation that the children were treated harshly by many CPS
workers. I would be very leery of anyone, too. Many of these children could have
been placed together, but, insted were cruelly torn away from siblings. Of
course, it makes sense that these children would look up to any older child of
their group for comfort, it was all they had, their parents were gone. So, sad.
I admire the courage of the older children to watch over the little ones, if
related or not.
Some of the issues these homes normally deal with such as lack of trust among
abused kids were present in the FLDS children. In order to establish trust, it
may have taken a full year instead of two months. It's abusive to teach children
not to trust anyone outside of their small group because the children are denied
the opportunity to be able to be involved with others, including those who are
wonderful people. They are psychologically abused in that they are presented
with a negative view of the world that just isn't real. It seems like many of
the workers cared very much about these children, but given what the children
were taught it would be hard for some of the children to feel cared for. It is
sad that the younger children missed opportunities for field trips due to the
fear of the older children. After reading many posts, I think there are many
people who underestimate the intangible psychological abuse that these children
have suffered and if therapy is not court ordered, will continue to suffer.