John LambertWhy are GIRLS getting married at all??????
I did not "prove" DUH'S point, I refuted it. Dr. Fischer has disavowed the the
FLDS church AND the practice of Polygamy. By his own admission, he WAS a
polygamist, but he is not now. How can you not understand the
difference? You are suggesting "once a polygamist, always a polgamist" Using
that flawed logic would mean "once married, always married" Ever heard of
divorce?? The FLDS have their plural marriages(which are not legally
accepted) , but they do also their "divorce" process to cancel the marriage
prior to the woman being remarried to another man. Both of you do not
understand the situation at all. Sadly, that doesn't stop you from putting forth
your ignorant opinions as fact.
It is NOT a choice between supporting the FLDS or the children. That is a false
contrast. It is about due process, constitutional guarantees and the RULE OF
LAW. Unless a law has been broken, charges have been filed or there is
immediate danger for a child, the STATE has no right to confiscate the neighbors
kids when the man down the street abuses his children. Charges should be filed
against perpetrators of child abuse in the FLDS community. charges should be
filed for the practice of slavery when women and children are treated like
property. Each defendant should have his/her day in court. CPS has violated too
many constitutionally protected rights to count. These people should be given
their kids back and the leaders who have created this underage bride scheme
should be tried and convicted and sent away for life. Warren Jeffs is
dispicable. A lot of the men supporting him are just as bad. Some of his
detractors would say anything to see him get what he deserves...Even deny his
followers due process. I believe CPS is our of control, and should not be
trusted. Its time for the courts to uphold the constitution.
Thank you for proving the point of the poster to whom you responded. While
Fischer might not currently be married to multiple women, he is still a
polygamist. Two of his wives just left him. You do understand that is
different from disavowing the practice, right? Alas, I don't think you do.
I know Dr. Fischer. I know his Wife I knew his 2 other wives, I know his
kids.DUH! claims Dr. Fischer is still a polygamist. How do you know
that??? I know otherwise. I have known him a very long time. I have been to his
house many times. I remember years ago, when his 3rd wife left him to go back to
Colorado City, AZ(FLDS HEADQUARTERS) because he was breaking free of the FLDS
Church. I remember when He and his 2 remaining wives all agreed that they had to
totally remove themselves and make the neccesary changes. DUH! should
shut up about things he knows nothing about. Dan Fischer is a great
man, and I have personally seen countless acts of charity he has done to help in
this situation and many others that the media doesn't cover.
There is a great difference between creating a "great Race" and a "great and
noble people." While I originally sided with CPS and the Texas authorities,
after finding so much of their information false I have since switched teams,
not to the FLDS side, but to the side of equal justice for all even if their
beliefs are not mine and I do not like them.
In my view raising my children in the ways of my religion is the best thing
that I can do for them. I suspect an FLDS person would argue the same,
that they raise the children in a way that leads to salvation. I do not agree
that it does, but believe that the governement should not rule on the merits of
all parenting decisions. The ruling in Yoder holds that parents have the right
to follow their religion even when this conflicts with what the state wants,
even when the state argues it is in the best interest of the children.
My best understanding is that FLDS women tell their leaders that they feel they
are ready for marriage. It does appear that in some cases this decision is made
by others on behalf of the child, however what is not cear is that this is
normally the case. Just because one girl felt she was forced into marriage does
not mean that most feel the same way.
To Samme, I think the implication is that Jeffs wanted to breed a pure
race. Eugenics and Nazi goals. However I am not sure if that is true, and I am
not sure if anyone besides Jeffs knows what his goals were in sending people to
I think the absolute BEST outcome of this Texas raid would be for the Supreme
Court to decide unanimously that laws forbidding polygamy are
unconstitutional.What would happen then? Then we would see the LDS
Church try to reinstate "The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" (plural
marriage), their memberships would drop by over 50% overnight, they would return
to being the backward cult they were at the turn of the century, and they would
be essentially indistinguishable from the FLDS!Now THAT would be
Hey REminder, What ever Warren did ...He never taught abuse. He may have
been an abuser but he wanted to be the only one good enough to be allowed to do
it. As for these children I think that the most abuse in there lives is
happening right now. Thier mothers and fathers love and care for them more
than most. Most mothers go to work out of the home and send thier kids to
daycare to be raised. These kids have always had a parent to look after
them. This is devestating to them, physicaly and mentally. If you have kids I
hope the PCS comes and takes them away and then asks questions later.Don't you
have any compasion at all for children.They don't want to help. If they realy
had concern for the kids they would have taken the fathers and left the mothers
and kids at the ranch. They could have moved in and educated them and gotto know
them.The mothers were in no position to resist. Talk about terrorisim!!!!! Is
this realy a free country???
"It's also very interesting to note the disconnected flavor of the posts like
the one you address. It's almost like from folks outta touch or from:
"compounds" writing and not quite "normal" in outlook."For the
record, these people are sick, in my judgment. But even sick people (you'll be
happy to know) have the protection of the US Constitution.
"So, you're saying that you would put your religion before your children?"I see no provision for the handling/teaching of children in the First
Amendment. If you see it, please point the way."Knowing that your
religion does not allow them to make their own choices when they become old
enough and mature enough to do so?"Same answer as above. And where
are you getting it that they don't/can't make their own decisions? That is, any
more than any other religious adherent? "This is becoming more
interesting as it goes."The US Constitution is a very interesting
It's interesting to stand back abit and watch the FLDS propaganda machine make
course corrections as they rev up their efforts to create another Short Creek
(they can't). These efforts are obviously being directed behind the scenes by
"someone(s)". Like the accusation of "libel" in messages here and at the trib
recently. These course corrections are in unison and I suspect amongst far fewer
posters than the machine pretends ...It's also very interesting to
note the disconnected flavor of the posts like the one you address. It's almost
like from folks outta touch or from: "compounds" writing and not quite "normal"
So, you're saying that you would put your religion before your children?
Knowing that your religion does not allow them to make their own choices when
they become old enough and mature enough to do so? This is becoming more
interesting as it goes.
"Attention FLDS (and supporters) - It is painfully obvious that you people care
more for your religion than you do for your children."Check the Bill
of Rights to the US Constitution. It is not painful and quit obvious that that
document puts freedom of religion above care and keeping of children.
I agree with you...they do care more about their so called religion and trying
to justify why they do the things that they do. I wonder if their "concern" is
actually because they care so much for their kids or if it is because they are
missing their little workers?Their construction business may be
hurting because some of their slave laborers are in state custody.I
also agree with your statement "Texas is being kinder to your children than you
could possibly understand". I think that may be part of the problem. Their
children may get a glimpse of life outside of the compound.
"How do you propose to give which child to whom?"What you do is take
all the mothers and all the children back to their ranch in buses (Baptist
owned) and let them off. In less than an ten minutes time the mothers will find
their children. End of story.
Attention FLDS (and supporters) - It is painfully obvious that you people care
more for your religion than you do for your children. If the child doesnt do
exactly as required by your extremely strict religion, they are kicked out. And
not just kicked out they are banished from every having a relationship with you
ever. That shows a total disregard for your childrens well being. So
stop with the sympathy attempts. We believe you to be hapless sheep following a
crazy prophets directives and caring much more about yourselves than you do
about your children. Otherwise you wouldnt choose your religion over your own
children, which you do every time you let the prophet determine your childs fate
and banish your own children from your lives. And if you really cared about
your children, you would give them the tools needed to survive in the real world
instead of trying to imprison them in your little group. Ignoring child brides,
abuse, etc you are simply not good parents as you do not let your children
become their own person. Texas is being kinder to your children than you could
The parents presented birth certificates, and in some cases drivers licenses
some from Utah and some from Texas. CPS decided the information was not valid.
That is why the governor of Utah was involved by the FLDS. The FLDS want the
governor to validate the information. FLDS present a drivers license from Texas
and a birth certificate of a woman 22 with CPS refusing to acknowledge the
information instead listing her as 15. With that in mind, how exactly can a
citizen of the U.S. prove anything. That is just one of the many many problems
of this case and why I flipped from anti-FLDS to anti-CPS and Texas. You
also write about DNA testing. To prove parenting, you only need 1 parent.
Here in Georgia lots of women raise their children without benefit of any male
in the home, with some having no knowledge of paternity. So testing paternity,
while salacious, is not necessary. As I have repeated over and over again,
standard application of the law not manipulation of the law should be applied.
Unless, you willingly submit to the same treatment in your own life. "Get out of
the car ma'am. I've decided your license isn't valid."
I posted law and am NOT FLDS, but agnostic in Atlanta. Again, there is nothing
to suggest forced marriages in Texas and again, to state so is libel. Do the
FLDS participate in arranged marriages? Yes, but so too do many many other
people in the U.S. with lower divorce rates. Arranged is not forced. Do some,
not all, marry young to go on and have children? Yes, but in my city the
difference is that the FLDS marry spiritually BEFORE getting pregnant while in
Atl girls get pregnant and don't marry but are both abandoned by the father. So
what is the real issue and why are we targeting those freaky FLDS? It seems
that our society is a mess, so rather than deal with our own issues we point
fingers at people we universally hate even if much of the information is false
and based only on rumor. The problem with the finger pointing is that for every
person that points, there are three fingers pointing back at you.CPS
problems Women age 22 - 28, with drivers licenses and birth certificates
verifying such, listed as 15. Broken bones at a lower rate than average and on.
Dan Fisher is a polyigamist himself. just because he does nice things for others
he has lots and lots of wives and lots of children.... dont kidd yourself he
still practices it. he is just rich so it gets over looked. we all should not
ever judge one group of people anyway race or religion or nut bags. this is
america we can be free to prqctice our relegion any way we want. dont judge the
flds or the mormons every one is wacky when they are over zealous in anything.
look at the jazz fans crazy too!!!
You mean to their real parents in Colorado City or Canada or,,,,
Well, if their parents would come forward and prove they are their children by
DNA or other means required of any parent they might stand a better chance.Don't you think?I mean I could go and say oh that child is mine, give it
to me. Or you could go up to my child and say, oh that child is mine.How
do you propose to give which child to whom?
The children need to be sent back to their parents NOW
I heard Willie Jessop today saying that the underage girls had their parents
permission to wed, which could be legal in some cases. If they in fact were
legally married, I'm sure the girls weren't given the choice: would you like to
marry your uncle or go to college? According to witnesses the choice was more
likely: would you like to marry your uncle or burn in everlasting hell? If they
weren't legally married...statuatory rape is the appropriate response.
"There is nothing to suggest that any of the FLDS marriages were "forced." To
state so without evidence is libel."Nothing to suggest? ... whew.
These FLDSers are really more deluded than I thought.Go ahead a sue
for libel ...
I think he might want to help himself gain ownership of the Ranch. I heard on
another thread that the lost boys situation was not what it seemed and that the
lost boys were living in property he owned and paying him rent.
As always, the politically correct dentist peddler has no regard for fathers. I
am sure he means, dad'sdo not matter. Who cares about them? Wait,
isn'tthat the prevailing view of American Family Court, unless of course
there is child support to pay.
"Since then, the kids don't go to public schools and are not aloud to speak to
outsiders."I know what you mean. I tell my kids to not talk to
strangers either. Especially "aloud."
common-law: In Texas it is an issue. That is my point. It may be backwards in
your opinion however at this point and time IT IS THE LAW. Perhaps some one who
has had to go to divorce court after being in a common-law marriage in Texas can
help you understand. It's not a matter of being forced it is a matter of
meeting the criteria of the state of Texas as to what constitues a common-law
marriage which some of these folks have done. You're not in Kansas anymore
You have been asking about Merrill for days...still no response. Same ole tap
dancing around. Do ya think that maybe some of these FLDSers even have a clue
where he is? I'm betting Mexico. Or better yet, there have been rumors about
tunnels under the Ponderosa since they moved down there. One rumor even said
that they had purchased more rebar than what was used in the Astrodome in
Houston. Considering that they have a concrete plant, who knows??? Maybe
Merrill is a tunnel rat by now.
You obviously missed the big hint in my comment. I was taken from my family
because of this exact thing. I was the only one that thought something had to be
wrong. My dad was one of those you all are talking about that was X comunicated
from the church. DCFS does have evidence of sexual and emotional abuse, they
just don't have to share that information with you. It took my family moving
from Utah to Nebraska for me to get anyone to pick up on my hints that something
was wrong. Since then, the kids don't go to public schools and are not aloud to
speak to outsiders. There are lots of ways to severly abuse someone without
leaving marks or broken bones. I am telling you, there is way more here than the
public eye can see. As a once insider who got out young, know that we are
relieved DCFS is getting involved and exposure is happening. Knocking doors at
3:01 says it in the last paragraph. It is your support or lack there of that
will make a difference in these young peoples lives. TRUST ME, I've lived it.
Laws created to exclude religious groups can be ruled unconstitutional. So,
there is legal importance to the change from 14 to age 16 as it relates to the
issue at hand. So, "used to be" can be challenged as is not "false" just
because it hasn't been challenged. Again, when it is changed because of a
religion, you have a legal issue.There is nothing to suggest that any of
the FLDS marriages were "forced." To state so without evidence is libel.Geez, do you people not know any attorneys? Much is simple law.
"Forced" and "used to be" are the keys to why your argument is false.
J-Man: good question. Where is Merril Jessop hiding? Why is he hiding? What is
he hiding? Who ishe hiding from? My impression is that no one is really in
charge. All of the arm chair lawyering and legal theories posted by flds
supporters are so much hot air. Warren is still in jail, Texas still has the
children and few fathers came forth to claim children. Six months from nothing
will have changed. I suspect the donations/offerings/tithes of the flds will
have to go way up to support the lawyer bills and the travel expenses of the
women who are scattered across Texas trying to visit their children.
Let's get this straight, the only reason that polygamy is as rampant as it is in
Utah and Arizona is because those states have allowed it to be, especially Utah.
It amazes me that the FLDS are ranting and raving on this site
that Texas has done the unthinkable by taking away their children, when in fact
that is exactly what Uncle Warren has been doing for years in Colorado City by
funneling their young women to British Columbia and Texas. And by exiling the
fathers of families to repent from afar. Lastly, WHERE IS THE
ACTING FLDS PROPHET, MERRIL JESSOP HIDING AT???? AND WHY HASN'T HE HELD A PRESS
CONFERENCE TO DENY ANY OF THESE CHARGES?
"Their own attorney admits that there were underage marriages at the ranch, but
dismisses them as not being that big of a problem."
=============="Underage" Marriages seemed to be OK with Texas before
2005 when they changed the law from 14 to 16 years old.
Suggesting that all doors in TX is a valid argument since it is not the FLDS
individuals wishing to be considered married BUT THE STATE desiring them to be
considered married multiple times. It's a bass ackwards argument.Much of the other points you made have already been proven false and
acknowledged by the state of TEXAS itself. There is NO welfare fraud among the
TX FLDS since NONE receive welfare. There are NO cases of child abuse and
actually the FLDS have LOWER rates of broken bones than that of the average
population. While incest may be occurring, you punish the individuals and not
the ENTIRE community. But be aware that incest laws have been historically fluid
and not as inelastic as you are wont to believe. You might also want to check
incest laws based on state. The only false imprisonment seems to be at the hands
of the CPS. It seems that nobody has "bolted" from the FLDS. While 6 women
orginally went to a "safe house" they immediately left. Not FLDS and
thankfully agnostic in Atlant.
You have just said what I have been thinking about all day. I think that the
media blitz that the FLDS people started when the women returned to the ranch,
was an attempt to garner public sympathy for them the same way that the pics in
the paper did for them at the Short Creek raid. In my humble opinion, it has
backfired. This is a different generation now, Thank God. Due to internet
access, etc., people are not so gullible when it comes to child abuse,
pediophilia, etc. We are a much more enlightened society than people were in
"Let's start knocking on all doors in TX and ask neighbors if their legally
unwed neighbors ever called themselves husband or wife."Weak
strawman.The house of cards that Uncle Warren built is about to
collapse. Eventually, some brave ex-FLDS father who has been forced to "repent
from a distance" is going to sue the FLDS for illegally stealing his family.It's only a matter of time before the code of silence is broken and the
FLDS people decide to throw off this yoke of bondage.All of the
incest, the polygamy, the child abuse (both girls and boys), the welfare fraud,
the false imprisonment, will all be exposed -- by FLDS who finally become
disgusted with all of the lies they've been fed their whole life.
As much as I hate to see the parents and children go through this trial by
public opinion, this case will probably be the straw that breaks the polygamy
law camels back. If CPS had a charge that they could file, without
manufacturing one, they already would have. They are grasping for straws.I'm not FLDS, never even thought about it really, but certainly have new-found
respect for these people.
Let's start knocking on all doors in TX and ask neighbors if their legally unwed
neighbors ever called themselves husband or wife. If they acknowledge that they
heard such, we hand them a marriage license. It's dumb application of the law
and the very reason many common law states removed the law from their books.
Texas is just behind the times...as usual. Again the issue remains, have the
FLDS requested the Bureau of vital statistics to consider them lawfully married?
They have not, so it is a non-issue per the law since you cannot force people
to marry as you would suggest.
I agree that Warren Jeffs and the flds are now in a new world where they cannot
control their own destiny. Flds and their apologists have been posting things on
these boards since Warren was a fugitive. The only thing that has changed is
more and more disaster on their heads. The good ship flds captained by Warren is
rapidly taking on water while the winds are rising. I do feel sorry for the
children who were/are on board. Have little sympathy for the adults who did not
leap off as Warren's edicts became more and more controlling and goofy. I fear
that some of the adults may face some jail time, loss of children for an
extended period, close supervision by CPS if/when they get their children back.
I fully support Texas in removing children from a potentially abusive situation.
Have any Canadian parents shown up to claim their daughters who were at YFZ?
"Their house of cards is about to come crashing down and now that they're
powerless to stop it, they're mounting a massive PR campaign to try to get the
public to believe that this is simply religious persecution."-----------------------It's been interesting watching the FLDS
propaganda machine revv up. Their messages here for instance have gone from
outlandishly outta touch and foolish to outlandishly outta touch and foolish if
you know what I mean. Seriously though, the PR campaign is relentless -- they
obviously think they can create another Short Creek. They can't. Let the cards
Its appalling what TX has done. Utter disregard for the rights of the people
whose rights they are supposed to be protecting.
"I guess its not the FLDS, nor the LDS, brightest day."The LDS are
no more responsible for the FLDS than the Catholics or Baptists are. The handful
of men who started the FLDS church were excommunicated from the LDS church a
century ago and the FLDS beliefs and practices are strictly their own.And, Utah and Arizona have been prosecuting child abuse which is why Warren
Jeffs has already been convicted in Utah and is facing additional charges in
Arizona. Much of the information that Texas officials have about the FLDS
members was provided to Texas by Utah and Arizona officials.Get over
yourself Tex, the FLDS fled to Texas because of the legal heat they were getting
in Utah and Arizona.
Common law: Whistling in the dark doesn't change anything. It may help to
abate your fear. It does not exempt you from the law in Texas. They do not have
to hold themselves out as legally married. Just married.
To Common Law: Be patient or be very afraid, the evidence is coming that will
prove the child abuse and who is responsible.The FLDS won't be able
to hide behind their religious beliefs in breaking the law much longer. They've
done a good job of researching all of the laws against polygamy and child abuse,
and seem to have all the answers on how to do both without getting caught.Their house of cards is about to come crashing down and now that they're
powerless to stop it, they're mounting a massive PR campaign to try to get the
public to believe that this is simply religious persecution.
Koolaide drinking agnosticYou think TX is nuts..? OK, I would like
to see how you wrapped your brain around that one.Lessee- Warren
gets life in Prison, his favorite peoples children are farmed out to safer
homes, and his Temple is a Ghost Ship in the bush.Wouldnt you agree
that Warren is the nut case here?He certainly is the captain of the
poor ship FLDS, which is shipwrecked in TX.Texas, THANK GOD, is not
going to allow the continuing child molestation that UT and AZ have.I guess its not the FLDS, nor the LDS, brightest day.Especially
when those crickets quit chirping and they find out the DNA tells some very
telling tales and the prison cells start filling up..
"Others" include the Bureau of Vital statistics which the FLDS DID NOT hold
themselves out to as married. One is "fishing" when one forces the term
"married" to two people that agree they are not legally married. It applies if
at least ONE person holds themselves as married even. Again, they do not hold
themselves out as legally married, so are exempt based on rule one of common law
marriage.There has been NO suggestion that ANY daughter has given
birth to her father's child. CPS does not even make such a claim. That is
libel. There is no evidence of physical abuse. In fact, the rate of broken
bones among FLDS children is LOWER than the average population and certainly
lower than in my own house which is currently at 40%. I hate gymnastics, but my
daughter loves it broken bones and all. Even if you are abused, which is
unfortunate and I honestly wish you received better, let us keep perspective.
You did not profess to be FLDS, so clearly this further shows that ALL homes may
contain abuse and that you do not target people based on belief but on evidence.
How many of you have grown up in an abusive, controling environment in constant
fear of being hurt more? How many of you have given birth to your fathers child?
How many of you were in an abusive marrage for years, to afraid to get out?
These girls stick together through tramabond. Some that leave go back because
they can't function in society. After 20 years, foster homes and therapy and
support, I still fear my abuser and still can't fully function in society. It
took me 4 years in DCFS custady to even start talking. And think of the little
boys. They grow up seeing this as a normal way of life. Learning to control and
abuse and manipulate women from a very small age. Don't bash the innocent. Don't
bash those trying to help. Unless you are directly involved, making choices that
will change lives forever, your words are empty. This isn't about past profits
or what church is right or wrong. This is about one man who over used his power
an abuse. This is about stopping this way of living and thinking now. Be part of
the solution, not the problem.
"the FLDS DO NOT hold themselves out to be married in the eyes of the public but
only within the FLDS community."A reasonable person would conclude
that "others" as in "representation to others that the parties are married"
would include members of the FLDS community.The FLDS continue
twisting themselves into pretzels trying to prove that they're not breaking the
laws that they're breaking -- child abuse, polygamy, welfare fraud.Multiple "spiritual marriages" = multiple "common law" marriages =
polygamy.Which is precisely why the FLDS refused to identify the
parents of each of the children.Now they're stuck between a rock and
a hard place; they need identify whose children are whose, and in so doing,
they'll be giving evidence of who is responsible for the child abuse resulting
from underage marriages; and who is practicing polygamy.Quite a mess
Warren Jeffs has gotten them into.
I am not a "kool aid" drinker, nor do I even live in Utah. Heck, I'm not even
LDS, but agnostic. I still think TX is nuts! No marriage licenses were issued
by the government of TX. No Common law marriages were reported for recording to
the Bureau of Vital Statistics, so no bigamy or polygamy have been committed.
There is no proof of child molestation or a warrant would have been issued. Do
I hear crickets chirping on that one? Yes, I do. Allegations of child
molestation bring about an emotional response for action, even if proven untrue.
It is you that seem to have fallen for the kool-aid that CPS is handing out.As for me, I am not uneducated but hold a master's degree even if you don't
like my opinion and attempt strawman arguments to distract from the real issue
at hand, namely that Texas acted egregiously to a large group of people because
of religious bias.Why did Jeffs pick Texas? Perhaps he actually thought
Americans in Texas applied the Constitution to all its legal citizens. Clearly
he was wrong and parents no longer tuck their children in bed at night. Want to
Common law: No recording of a common-law marriage is required in Texas. They do
present themselves as married. There is no provision for religious designated
marriage that I know of.
According to the first common law test, the FLDS DO NOT hold themselves out to
be married in the eyes of the public but only within the FLDS community. They
have not sought out the recording of a common law marriage by the bureau of
vital statistics either. In other words, no common law marriage was legally
established nor desired so common law marriage is moot.
Warren Jeffs is largely to blame for where the flds are now due to his ego/power
trip. His followers are complicit in it since they followed his goofy edicts;
letting him tell them where to live, what to wear, whether facial hair was OK or
not, whether pets were allowed or not, who to marry, to whom wives and children
of expelled members were to be assigned, where to send their children to school,
etc, etc. As a result the flds lost the UEP, lost their children in Texas,
Warren Jeffs lost his freedom. The sad and scary thing is that many of the flds
still believe Warren's goofy edicts. He is a false prophet, he is a control
freak, he is leading the flds from one disaster to another. To continue to
follow him will lead to only more disasters. If his edicts are right why does he
not follow them himself? When arrested he was wearing shorts!!, short sleeves
and in a red Cadillac!! Someone else would have been expelled for that. The
rules don't apply to him??
Rod Parker, the FLDS attorney, said that the records found in the search of the
YFZ ranch showed that the "incidence of underage marriage is actually not very
prevalent."Their own attorney admits that there were underage
marriages at the ranch, but dismisses them as not being that big of a
problem.I guess it would only be a big deal to him if it had
happened to his daughter.Make no mistake, the FLDS had only been in
Texas for a short time; they were just getting started. It's a good thing that
Texas rescued the kids before more of them could be abused.Dr.
Fischer is doing a good thing providing a safety net for the boys who have been
tossed aside to keep the boy-to-girl ration in line with Warren Jeffs' master
People really are getting ahead of the situation. Dan Fischer has not done
anything yet. Furthermore, he is secretive about what his plans are. We will
have to wait and see, what, if anything, happens.Frankly, I am wary
of former FLDS getting involved because I am doubtful how far the 'former' goes,
and, suspect they still have some of the same problems - not recognizing girls
and women as autonomous, racism, superstitions about vaccinations, the color
red, education beyond junior high, etc. - that they did when they were FLDS.
Hey Sharon"The FLDS are not committing religious adultery but only
legal adultery. According to their religious beliefs they are spiritually
married therefore are exempt from adultery."=====WOW -
Another Koolaide drinker. Talk about goofy - Kook - uneducated....Although, come to think of it, Utahns have gotten away with it so long, it
does seem to be the State Sport.But in Texas, Bigamy, Polygamy,
Child Molestation, all of these are felonies.Which brings up a good
question... Why would Uncle Warren invest $gazillions (AKA the Arizona -Utah
Welfare Bleed nest egg) in a state with such crazy people as those pesky
Texans..?Why, OHH LORD, Why? Did God do this so he might be
spited?.Enquiring minds want to know... !.
**We need to remember that no one knows for sure which child belongs to which
mother.**BS. The mothers know.**When they refused to
cooperate with CPS regarding something as simple as names and birth dates.**The CPS wanted that info to bring charges against them. One is not
required to testify against oneself... or one's spouse.
to sammee: Yes they 'legally' marry one woman. However, Texas recognises
common-law marriage as legal. Therefore if they fit the criteria of common-law
marriage, they are married in Texas. That makes it polygamy. Here are the
criteria:(1) an agreement to be married; (2) cohabitation in Texas; and
(3) representation to others that the parties are married
reading articles like this one and reading comments, like mine and you're is
pointless. If you want to know the Truth and you don't yet it is your own fault
Hitler tried to have only "perfect people" also. Except his was called a
"Master race". And we all know what happened to him.
The FLDS are not committing religious adultery but only legal adultery.
According to their religious beliefs they are spiritually married therefore are
exempt from adultery.
This is a child abuse case that involves both civil and criminal elements.
Different laws apply to each. Removing a child from a potentially abusive
situation until the child's safety can be assured trumps the innocent until
proven guilty rights of the parents.It's better to remove a child
who isn't being abused and isn't at risk of being abuse, than to leave a child
to be abused.The parents still have every right to challenge the
removal of their children and to get their children back if the state can't
prove that their children aren't at risk.
Oh, and to respond to "Reminder":"It's unconstitutional to punish
someone for belonging to a group, and make them guilty by proxy."No,
its not. These were all one children living in one sex commune.If
they had seperate properties with seperate addresses, you might have a point.
But you dont.Warren walled them in behind a fence, locked gates and
a guard tower.His decision. I heard a rumor his decisions were
"goofy" - - well, I guess he is enjoying the fruits of his labors now, aint
Dan Fischer sounds like a good man. If is good to see people stepping forward
who know the real story of what goes on in this group. Warren Jeffs turned the
FLDS from a ploygamous religious group into a personality cult. He is totally
nuts. I hope the children can be reunited with their mothers. The "men" in this
group need to stand up and take responsibility for their actions rather than
continue hiding behind the skirts of their "wives."
Everyone should remember that Texas can be dead wrong (and is) without the FLDS
being right, lily-white, or innocent.Likewise, be careful about
lumping things that you might consider backwards, unwise, immoral, or repugnant
into the same boat with things that are illegal. When you do that youve stopped
holding to the rule of law and have embraced either anarchy or tyranny.
Not an expert on Dan, but its obvious he has the kids at heart - as do many
other organizations.Problem is, the FLDS own lifestyle DOES NOT and
they brought the problem to their own door, kind of a "self fulfilling prophesy"
of their own end times.IE... "We will be prosecuted for all time..
Let the bank robberies begin!" .
QuestionIn the Book of Mormons....there is a list of the TEN
COMMANDMENTS...My question is...how do the FLDS justify the following...Thou
shall not commit ADULTERY ? Seems to me...thats is just what they are
committing.Thou shall not steal...Bleeding The Beast...hmmmm!Thou
shall not kill.....Blood Atonement...is that not killing?
We need to remember that no one knows for sure which child belongs to which
mother. When they refused to cooperate with CPS regarding something as simple
as names and birthdates."Any accusations of child abuse should have
been presented against each mother individually".Kind of hard to do
when you don't know which child belongs to which mother.
What kind of goofballs put up with Warren Jeffs stupid proclamations? They clearly aren't competent to raise kids if they can't tell they are being
so obviously manipulated by Jeff's and his family. All the "Jeffs" surnames have
all the young brides. Jeff's was said to have as many as 40 wives! Followers need to take thir blinders off and stop sacrificing the lives of
their sons and daughters at the Jeffs alter. He's a nut and they are follish for
"I've read that part of the reason that Jeffs sent people to Texas was because
he was trying to have a race of "perfect people."What's wrong with
that? Most all religions try to make people perfect.
Good parents don't abandon their children or throw them out (at least until
they're legally adults, 18) just because their children make bad choices.Parents are legally responsible for their children until they're 18, but
the FLDS don't seem to care much for whether something is legal or illegal when
it comes to their family relationships.Dr. Dan Fischer is a good man
picking up the pieces of their families that the FLDS have so carelessly
It seems that when this all started the term "lost boys" meant those boys that
were forceably removed from the FLDS community. It has now changed to kicked
out or run away. Next it will be re-revised to mean kicked out, run away, or
slowly meandered off the compound. I trust the ex-flds more and more with each
passing day as some of their words betray them.Caroline Jessop said that
everyone thinks as one, then she said that when the red revelation came that one
woman ripped out a red rose bush and planted a pink one while other women
continued wearing red dresses. Caroline Jessop also fails to mention that
though she escaped when one daughter was 13, that same daughter Betty, returned
when she was 18 years and two days. Clearly that daughter would have memories
of abuse that should have kept her out. It makes me doubt some of the stories.
Then Caroline jessop says that the kids are very advanced with home schooling
yet Flora Jessop says the kids are undereducated. That is more proof of
individality. It is time that individual families are treated as such and not
judged as one.
Your argument that a single group led by a true Prophets somehow diverged into
two groups with opposite views that are both still led by true Prophets is
patently absurd.The Prophet will never lead you astray.False prophets will always lead you astray.
**The law in Texas allowed 14 yr. olds to "legally" marry at 14 with a parent's
permission.**You don't know that these people didn't have parental
permission to marry at 14. I rather think they did.**None of these
so called "celestial marriages" are legal.**Right. They are not
civil marriages. So, what's your beef?**They apparently only
legally marry one woman.**I take it that you're commending them for
this, right?**I would think that until the law changed that they
could have married at 14...but only to one person.**That's exactly
what they are doing. See your comment above.
We still have a Constitution. That means that as much as you want to go in and
"rescue" the mothers and children, these folks are still individuals, and should
be treated like individuals. It's unconstitutional to punish someone for
belonging to a group, and make them guilty by proxy. Individuals are innocent
until proven guilty. Any accusations of child abuse should have been presented
against each mother individually. The state should be sued for civil rights
violations or change the law and ammend the constitution to allow for group
MAKE NO MISTAKE OF THE CHARACTER OF DAN FISHER. THISMAN HAS BEEN A GREAT
HUMANITARIAN FOR MANY YEARS. HEHAS TRAVELED ALL OVER THE WORLD AND
PROVIDED DENTALCARE TO PEOPLE IN THIRD WORLD NATIONS THAT OTHERWISEWOULD NEVER RECEIVE ANY CARE. AND, HE HAS DONE THISAT HIS OWN EXPENSE.
ALL OF HIS CHILDREN ARE CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS TO SOCIETY. MOST GRADUATED HIGH
SCHOOL AND COLLEGE IN RECORD TIME. FOR MANY YEARS HE HAS GIVEN JOBS TO FLDS KIDS
THAT WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE NO LIFE AHEAD OF THEM.BESIDES BEING A GOOD
BUSINESS MAN, HE IS A MAN WITHA KIND HEART THAT TRULY CARES FOR PEOPLE.
NEXT TIMEYOU SEE YOUR DENTIST, ASK HOW MANY OF THE PRODUCTSCAME FROM
ULTRADENT. HIS RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT INTHIS FIELD HAS PROVIDED THE
WORLD OVER WITH NEW AND BETTER DENTAL CARE THAN EVER BEFORE.I FOR ONE CAN
THINK OF NO ONE ELSE THAT IS CAPABLEOF FINDING A LONG TERM SOLUTION TO THE
PROBLEMS INTEXAS. GOD BLESS DAN FISHER.
.I've read that part of the reason that Jeffs sent people to Texas was because
he was trying to have a race of "perfect people." He supposedly sent the ones
that he considers the most loyal to him. Also the FLDS allegedly have lawsuits
against them in Arizona and Utah. So I guess he decided it was time to clear
out. Listen to some of the comments that his sister has made about him...Very
The law in Texas allowed 14 yr. olds to "legally" marry at 14 with a parent's
permission. None of these so called "celestial marriages" are legal. They
apparently only legally marry one woman. I would think that until the law
changed that they could have married at 14...but only to one person. Polygamy
FLDS and LDS share a common commitment to be obedient to the Prophet, when the
Prophet speaks the debate is over. The Prophet will never lead you astray. The
FLDS currently follow a different Prophet than do the LDS, but both share the
same Prophets up to Wilford Woodruff. When you objectively read the
pronouncements of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and John Taylor regarding the
necessity of practicing Polygamy there is no question that it was a never to be
changed or abandoned gospel principal. It seems very disingenuous for believing
LDS to be so judgmental and holier than thou toward the FLDS. The FLDS are the
ones who have stayed true to the directions of Mormonisms founders.Both groups need to realize that when you turn your mind and heart over to
another person the possibility exists of being subjected to goofy ideas not in
your best interest. You can be obedient and follow the Prophet but you suffer
the consequence by your self.
I believe that Joseph Smith was basically a con artist who was very charimatic.
Seems like he had "revelations" on what would profit him the most. Too bad some
of these prophet wannabes don't go to Missouri or Illinois. If you read
anything at all, you will know why they settled in Utah.
**And they do not have to give their daughters and wives to be passed around
like table salt. And they need to change to a law-abliding society.**Passing wives around? What's so wrong about that? Folks in Hollywood do it
regularly. Some even get divorced first. And they have the admiration of the
back to topic: This man Dr. Fischer is doing a great thing. I admire him for
helping all those boys who have been kicked out over the years - that could not
have been easy. If these FLDS men would stand up and take
accountability for their actions, their children, and their wives - their
"religion" would be accepted. They may have to do some time in jail for their
crimes, but hopefully they would learn from this and remember that if the
doctrine of "plural marriage" is what is really important to them, then all the
other nonsense - secrecy, welfare fraud, child brides, child labor and child
abandonment is just preventing them from being able to live peacefully in the
way they want. Even though many (me included) hate the idea of one
man marrying many women, I don't think that many in this country would judge
them as harshly is we knew they obeyed the laws of the land, didn't control
their members with fear and manipulation, allowed women and children to receive
an education, and supported their large families with their own money - not
ours.This is not religious persecution, it is abuse prevention
I find it very sad that a discussion of someone offering assistance in this
situation devolves into yet another discussion of "who is a prophet?" The
problem is abuse. Not who married whom at what age 100 years ago but who is
abusing whom today and who is at risk for abuse in the foreseeable future.
Vision and Anonymous:Warren Jeffs and Brothers Joseph and Brigham
are not just dissimilar -- they are polar opposites. Jeffs openly
defies God -- Joseph and Brigham humbly submitted to His will. Jeffs uses fear to shame or bully people into bending to his perverted will --
Joseph and Brigham were content to teach corrrect principles and permit people
to govern themselves. Most importantly, Jeffs is a pathic poser --
Brothers Joseph and Brigham are prophets of the living God.
**The culprit here is Warren Jeffs. It was ok for him to send these people to
Eldorado, even though some of them were kids who were taken away from their
families in Utah and Arizona.**Jeffs sent them to Texas because the
marriageable age there for 14... and they could marry older men. Texas
surprised them and changed the law in 2005.It still is a puzzlement
as to why 14 year old Texans could marry but not if you're FLDS.
Has anyone concidered that Dan Fischer is a "wolf in sheeps clothing?" Look up
some of the other articles he has done in the media to "help the FLDS." He
helps renegade boys that would not stop crousing around the community, drinking,
doing drugs,etc. No parents would uphold teenagers in that unless they were in
RU seems to speak from a position of blissful ignorance. Dr. Fischer is a good
man doing good work. Charity never faileth . . .
Yea, I beleive that Joseph Smith is/was a true prophet. Warren Jess is NOT.
Many Catholics do believe that the priests, bishops, and the Pope are all the
deliverers of God's message on Earth. All Christians regard Jesus as either
God, the Son of God, or at the very least, a prophet of God. To CPS, that makes
them all dangerous.If only they had "proof" of "systematic abuse".
Ah yes- infant boy genital mutilation! It's not just spoken of in their
religious texts, but is still performed to this day!Time to snatch
up all the poor, indoctrinated, Christian boys and girls and deprogram them away
from believing in silly old fairy tales of imaginary bearded men in the sky.
Remove thoughts of "god" and "prophet" from their little minds, and train them
to believe that government is their only god, and all else is fiction and
To: Vision and AnonymousJoseph Smith is a true prophet of God,
called by the Lord Himself to usher in the last dispensation. He will continue
to have both good and evil spoken of him throughout history.Warren
Jeffs has admitted that he is a false prophet. He is a misguided and soon-to-be
forgotten leader by his own people.
Can't believe some people are still using the term "modern day prophet" for
people like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Warren jeffs, etc. You really believe
that God came down and actually spoke to these people? Come on - you have got
to be kidding me. That's like the Catholics believing in talking snakes or that
the pope is holier than you or I...Has it occurred to you that maybe
either they had a dream and ran with it (and it was just a dream) or, more
probable, they realized that they could control people through their faith and
made it all up so people would worship them?You can have whatever faith
you want, but let's at least try to keep it within reality. Sure there may be a
gretaer power that we should all look up to, but no one came and spoke to these
people. You're worshiping false idols if you trust these men.And
Texas did the right thing getting those people out of that cult. FREE THE WOMEN
AND CHILDREN. LOCK THE ABUSERS UP.
Wrongo ranger. Warren Jeffs is a nutcase of the first degree. Joseph Smith was
a monder-day prophet. BIG DIFFERENCE. I think what Dr. Fischer is doing is
great. The state of Texas has a huge problem on it's hands, and the possiblity
of some serious civil rights violations, at best. You cannot lump
FLDS and LDS into one box. That would be like me trying to tie KKK with the
Southern Baptists, just because they shooted off of them, to avoid seggreation.
Why is Warren Jeffs the culprit of FLDS suffering and persecution today, but
Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others are NOT considered to be "culprits" of
the suffering and deaths of early LDS pioneers and saints? Sounds like a double
standard LDS people invoke against the FLDS polygamists. And it sounds like
Imagine 50 years into the future. The FLDS will have grown to several hundred
thousand members; Warren Jeffs will be revered as a Prophet of God who "has done
more save Jesus only for the salvation of men"; these women and children will be
revered as "pioneers" and "martyrs" who sacrificed their comforts, liberties,
and lives for the "cause of Zion."Can't you see it?If
not, just re-read the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints. Joseph Smith was no different then than Warren Jeffs is today. And just
as the persecution of the early LDS Church actually stimulated strength and
growth, so the persecution of the FLDS will do the same.
In the spirit of prevention, CPS should go after, and should only go after,
those specific men suspected of abusing young girls--based on evidence. There
is no question putting a few men behind bars would deter future abuse. But for CPS to take all the children regardless of the complete lack of
evidence of crime on the part of many parents is heartless, illegal, and only
paints CPS in the worst light because it is going beyond reasonable
prevention.Having said that, the FLDS men who know they are guilty
of underage marriage should present themselves as ransom in this hostage
situation so the innocent children can be returned to the parents who are
Dan Fischer is a good man to do this. I wish him well. It's great to see that
the majority of posters on this thread are well-wishers and hopeful for positive
change within the FLDS culture. They don't have to give up their core beliefs
in principle, but they do need to give up the notion that they have no agency
(that God has always been so careful to preserve) in order to enter heaven. And
they do not have to give their daughters and wives to be passed around like
table salt. And they need to change to a law-abliding society. That may take
Interesting word "custody". Kind of sounds like the situation the kids were
rescued from. That and "ownership". Go texas.
"The culprit here is CPs and its unjustified seizure of innocent children."Wishful thinking on the part of "Thomas" and his ilk that the children
will be returned and they can go back to business as usual.The real
culprits are the FLDS men who so willingly followed the illegal edicts of the
deranged Warren Jeffs in sexually abusing young girls.It's time the
FLDS leaders and men woke up and realized that the rest of the world now knows
what they've been doing and they'll never again be able to use their so-called
relgious beliefs as cover for abusing their children.It's time for
the FLDS men to start acting like real men, take responsibility for the abuse
they've committed, and start putting the needs of their wives and children
So you also believe that all children around the country should be returned to
their parents even though there is reason to believe (such as continued drug use
or mental illness) will beat, rape, and kill their children in the future? If
this be the case, heaven help all of the children because the concept of
PROTECTION (the middle word in CPS) is for naught. Thomas, in order to
stop abuse, you have prevent abuse, not just pick up the pieces AFTER a child
has been abused. If you can show that a parent HAS abused, you MUST change the
situation to PROTECT the child from FURTHER abuse.
The culprit here is Warren Jeffs. It was ok for him to send these people to
Eldorado, even though some of them were kids who were taken away from their
families in Utah and Arizona. As I've said before, abuse and neglect depends on
who is doing it. What CPS did was justified. They had an allegation and they
followed up on it. If they hadn't investigated, more people would have been
howling on here about what they didn't do.I think that there are more concerns
than if a child might be forced into an underage marriage in the future.
A good move. The FLDS is reaching out to the apostates.It means that they
are understanding it's not business as usual. The only thing that is a question,
do all apostates have given up on Warren Jeffs, just because he kicked them out,
or are they still hoping to be forgiven and taken back into the fold? Real
vetting needs to take place, to make sure that the people who might be allowed
to take in children from Eldorado are living within acceptable standards of CPS,
to break the artificial 'keep sweet' mold.
How commendable that Dan Fischer has empathy for those who remain in their
delusion. Many here relate... Charity, never faileth
Dan Fischer is in a position similar to that of many who have left the LDS
Church, (as well as from others). Their affection and concern for their friends
and kin who remain in the religion of their past is close to the surface. That he steps forward now displays character, integrity and charity that
never fails when the spirit rises above the letter of the law...
It takes a brave man to even consider doing what you do for these families. I
hope that the people of the FLDS eventually are able to see their so called
prophet for what he really is. Nowhere on these postings have I seen any
comments regarding to the fact that this organization condones the exploitation
of women and children. My prayers are with you and others who are trying to do
the "right" thing.
The culprit here is CPs and its unjustified seizure of innocent children. any
assertion that a child might be forced into an underage marriage in the future
is not good enough.
I wonder, if Mr. Fischer only left the group about 10 years ago, how many of the
children and women there are his if any???? Maybe if Texas is
successful, and even if they are not, Utah will do something about the
polygamist issue there.I am in my 40's. I knew polygamy was going on
in Utah in my junior high days... It's past time Utah did something about it.The children deserve a future; a future not starting with marriage to a
man old enough to be their grandfather or father.
Thank you Dr. Fischer. I live here in Texas and it is extremely interesting and
hard. The stories are even scary. Good Luck Dr. Fischer
They can blame Warren Jeffs if they want to, but the real culprit is delusional
Dan Fischer better start building a bigger shelter because he is going to end up
with more children than he bargained for. Calling Warren Jeffs,
"goofy," is an extreme understatement of his devastatingly harmful edicts. Guess
this was FLDS political correctness speaking.